What is the role of Muut? Who owns the project? #1545

GianlucaGuarini opened this Issue Jan 24, 2016 · 24 comments


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Riotjs is an awesome project created initially by Muut.
I have never used the first version but I started contributing to the project in Feb 2015 on the second release.
Since than I have worked hard enhancing the project, adding features and managing the issues and the riot organization. I must also say that @tipiirai is the only employed by Muut I was in contact with and thanks to him I was able to create the riot organization on github making important decisions for the framework roadmap. But his contribute is really rare his impact on riot became almost null in the latest months.
With that said, I don't work for Muut and neither @cognitom @aMarCruz @rsbondi. These guys are constantly working on riot, answering the questions, supporting the community, making patches and deciding for its future.
This means that we are spending days of our spare time working on the code without knowing who has initially created that file and what they think about our work.
I love riot, and I will keep working on it as always (the next major release will be awesome) but I think a clearer position of Muut on the project would be really appreciated especially on the following questions:

  • is the project copyright still fair?
  • will we ever get again contributions on the project from the Muut devs ( @aurri @tipiirai @baer ) ?
  • we are deciding the future direction of the project directly on github discussing with the community, will Muut be ever involved in these discussions?
  • This project is opensource under MIT license but is there any risk in future Muut will be able to sell or monetize it claiming its ownership?
  • In case of riot meetings, conferences or campaigns around the world will Muut benefit of the success of the framework for sponsorship/crowdfounding?

I guess an answer to these questions would be fair for me and for the other riot contributors as well.
I really believe in open source and I hope riot will be completely left to its community/contributors of course never forgetting that it was initially created by Muut ( this reminds me a bit what happened to node and joyent recently)

Other opinions are welcome

Gianluca ✌️ ❤️


Despite my very limited english, I will try to explain my feelings about this question.

Weeks ago someone planning a long-term application (~20 years), ask me about riot plans and its stability in the medium and long term... I was unsure of my answer, I had never thought about it until then.

I joined the riot team in June 2015. Since then, as a developer, I've been learning more about the project and I love it. I spent much of my time trying to make it better and imagining paths to follow to get the best. But..., who decides the way to go?

I don't know about Muut, I know the persons behind riot ...after all, we aren't many :)
Of course these questions are important for all of us who spend our time in riot, and the community that depends on it.

With the rapid growth of riot, copyright and future plans should be clarified and the role, if any, that will play Muut in the project. We need assurances that riot will remain free and opensourced, and those who worked on it have the right to decide the direction.


(@aMarCruz oh, me, too. I have the same hang-up on my English..., but I'll try to explain it)

Honestly speaking, I've been feeling something wrong on the copyright description a bit, especially for this few months. If it was "tipiirai + contributors", it could have been totally ok for me. I like and I'm sure about tipiirai's intuition when he make a decision. And I know starting something is the biggest contribution. Even if his contribution become less in the future, it could seem fair for me.

By the way, related to @GianlucaGuarini's question, it's a good time to have a meetup of Riot.js. I'd like to know we could get some supports from them, Muut. For example: air tickets for the guests. Or do they have a plan to have it anywhere?


I figured this discussion would need to happen eventually. Riot for us was ultimately a manifestation of our internal development philosophy. The primary goal being somewhat to evangelize an approach to development that drives everything we do internally here at Muut. The idea that you must not sacrifice simplicity for power, nor must you sacrifice power for being concise.

Riot wasn't created with the idea it would be something to control for our commercial benefit like so many other open source projects but as truly giving back to the open source community that has benefited our own development so much.

We'd love for the community to take the drivers seat for Riot. We absolutely appreciate recognition for having initially created Riot but we don't want to hold some scary copyright over everyone's head to enforce it. We view Riot as property of the people contributing to the project.

While we aren't actively contributing recently we'd also like to continue to be considered core contributors but we will not be making unilateral decisions with the project as well. The community will continue to drive the process.

This also includes topics like potential changes to the license.

Basically, we have no intention of trying to monetize Riot, we're ecstatic that others find our approach appealing and the community of contributors are the best suited to direct the ongoing development of Riot. As Riot grows in usage whatever amount of recognition toward us for starting the project is something best decided by the community.

Honestly the biggest thanks for us is the fact that Riot has continued to grow in popularity despite the heavy skepticism of building something powerful, very simple to understand, without needing to be a humongous black box of code.

Courtney (CEO @ Muut )


@courtneycouch said the most important, but let me add my thoughts.

@GianlucaGuarini I'm glad you brought this up! This important topic must be addressed sooner than later.

I hope riot will be completely left to its community/contributors

This nails the point. Seems obvious. You guys have made tremendous efforts on pushing the project forward. Seriously:

Thank you!

You deserve the lead and can decide the direction. So please just modify the copyright statements so that they feel more natural. My role currently is just an active (and happy) Riot user. I'm using it more and more.

My biggest hope is that you keep the minimalistic approach. Hope you can really figure that out.

I haven't been around too much since I'm buried into other programming challenges. I hope I can spare some time for a blog entry or two. Would give deserved visibility for the project. So much to write about. Especially React vs Riot angle seems the most relevant.

Maybe we should arrange a Skype call?

avimar commented Jan 25, 2016

This sounds very promising.
I'd just like to remind the devs of one of my original reasons for choosing riotjs:

the API was straightforward, no crazy JS code, the "controller" was right there with the HTML that displayed it. Everything is just... straightforward. Of the ToDoMVC examples, riot was one of the most straightforward.

Since 2.1 it appears there's been some complexity added: virtual tags, child inheritance,... I'm asking that you be careful. Besides breaking changes that have been made, there's also new features. Please stick to the minimalist roots.

The idea of breaking out the router to be optional sounds like a great step forward: "batteries included, but optional" as docker presents it: We have all you need, but you can use only the pieces you want, easily.


👍 @tipiirai

keep the minimalistic approach

A Skype call sounds nice 😄

ilblog commented Jan 25, 2016

Guys you do a great job on RIOT. The major advantages of it is absolutely unprecedented syntax of riot tags, where you have HTML & JS together, and of course its simple and minimalistic approach. Hope you will solve this issue.


Thank you guys for the work you do! I love the simplicity of RIOT, it really makes programming the web a joy.


Thank you guys you are saving my brain of unnecessary complexity!


We view Riot as property of the people contributing to the project.

@tipiirai @courtneycouch first of all I would like to say thank you! If only the half of the IT companies had the same spirit of Muut today we could have really a better web for everyone.
I am totally available for a skype/hangout call, but we should also consider the fact that each riot core contributor is located in a different part of the world so it can be hard to find the right day/hour to do that, however I for me the best would be any Fiday (either this or the next week). I would like that all the core devs @aMarCruz @cognitom @tipiirai @rsbondi could be available for it. The discussion is going to be not that long but I would like to focus on the following topics:

  1. Short presentation of each of us to know each other, at least the voice :) (with no concerns about our English speak skills)
  2. How to update the copyright/license of the project?
  3. How to proceed our riotjs development for the next releases (quick roadmap)?
  4. Does it makes to organize riot conferences/meetups? Where? How? Who?
  5. Can we use any system of crowdfunding to finance the enormous amount of work we are doing on this project? How? Who?

Please guys let me know if you prefer to create a http://doodle.com/ to organize our call.


@courtneycouch , @tipiirai , a big thank you!


Very cool!

Doodle sounds like a proper tool for organizing the call.

nikek commented Jan 26, 2016

This thread was such a joy to read. Riot's future looks really bright!
Love what you're doing, keep up the powerful minimalism 😄


@aMarCruz @cognitom @tipiirai @rsbondi I've made the doodle hoping to find a date/time that could work for any of you guys. You should have received an email with the invite. BTW @tipiirai we have since a couple of months a Riot group on skype you are the only one who still needs to join it, you should have received my skype contact request

jpodwys commented Jan 28, 2016

Really enjoying riot, thank you so much for all your hard work. Grateful that the community has passionate members willing to contribute serious personal time.

ilblog commented Jan 29, 2016

I would like to contribute, but my programming experience is not on such a level. However I would like to sponsor RIOT JS contributors meeting (those 5 of you) in Prague. Plane tickets and hotel. No strings attached, just would like to meet you personally and to help this great concept a little bit.


@ilblog thank you for your offer it's really appreciated. We will discuss about it and let you know what we have decided.

@aMarCruz @cognitom @rsbondi @tipiirai according to our doodle the 7th Feb at 14:00 ( UTC+1 custom time conversion for all of you guys ) there will be our first Skype call to discuss about all the topics listed above. I recommend you to list all your questions/feedback about riot in order to democratically enhance this awesome open source project.


tipiirai commented Feb 1, 2016

@ilblog That's so generous from you. Respect!

Curious: are you backed by a company or how are you planning to manage the expenses? It seems that we are highly distributed geographically so the plane tickets will cost.


Our Skype call of the 7th February was a great idea. Finally we were able to know each other after months working together on the same project.

To recap shortly the most important decisions:

  1. The copyright will be properly updated in the next releases removing Muut from the distribution files see also
  2. There will be blog posts on riot.com where we will describe the updates and the progress of the framework on each major release
  3. There will be at moment no specific Riot conferences but we will be evaluate eventually to participate as speakers to any local ( closer to the contributor location ) javascript event/conference talking about riot

I would like to thank @rsbondi @tipiirai @aMarCruz @cognitom for the time spent working on riot and for being really nice guys.



@ilblog we have also discussed about your offer but we realized that it's too difficult for all of us meeting in Europe. We are spread around the world and instead we are evaluating whether we should accept donations but honestly I have no idea about how to do it. Any feedback regarding this topic is really appreciated


Wondering whether there would be any interest in organizing a Meetup in the San Francisco Bay Area here in the US?


@earksiinni sounds great! I'm opening a new issue about local meetups ;-) #1589


the copyright was updated in riot 2.3.16 I am closing this issue. Thanks to muut and to all the contributors



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