2016-05-11.txt

12:00 <@erickt> And we're off! or on rather!
12:00 < vladimir-sn> (that would explain why i know nothing about it)
12:00 <@erickt> johannh: no prob
12:00 < skade> vladimir-sn yeah, next week :D
12:00 <@erickt> hello everyone! welcome to the meeting
12:00 < skade> so, let's get the party started, last week before birthday
12:00 < steveklabnik> wooo
12:00 <@erickt> here's the agenda: https://github.com/rust-community/team/issues/26
12:00 < jntrnr> woohoo!
12:00 < johannh> :tada:
12:01 < aturon> hello!
12:01 <@erickt> let's start with the survey. omg we got 1600 responses
12:01 < jntrnr> yessss
12:01 < jntrnr> and some good data, too
12:01 < carols10cents> *so far*
12:01 < carols10cents> when are we closing it?
12:01 <@erickt> carols10cents: in a month
12:01 <@erickt> I expect we're going to be hitting some dropoff soon
12:02 < skade> well, we haven't fully announced it over here, yet
12:02 <@erickt> but the official rust birthday blog post should hopefully bump those numbers
12:02 < aturon> the core team also plans to re-link from the anniversary blog post
12:02 < steveklabnik> amd o
12:02 < bstrie> erickt: present!
12:02 <@erickt> skade: yeah, I'm going to bring it up tomorrow at the meetup
12:02 < steveklabnik> i'll probably tweet a few more times beofr ethe close
12:02 <@erickt> bstrie: morning!
12:03 <@erickt> does anyone know if any of the local meetups pushed it out to their communities?
12:03 < hjr3> i think there will be a long tail of people still taking it
12:03 < bstrie> erickt: I figure that next week or so we'll sticky the survey on the subreddit, to give it some persistent exposure
12:03 < hjr3> i pushed it out to my meetup
12:03 < jntrnr> when we tweet, can we be sure to have a wording of something like “rather you use Rust or not, we’d love to hear from you"
12:03 < hjr3> and will be verbally talking about it tonight at the meetup
12:03 < skade> we will on the birthday
12:03 <@erickt> nice!
12:03 < jntrnr> though we’ve been getting like 30% response rate for non-users, would love to see even more
12:04 < skade> I'll also ask OpenTechSchool if I can spam them once :)
12:04 < skade> jntrnr I'm surprised, I would have expected more
12:04 < hjr3> i think it is key to remind people that they do not have to be super involved in Rust to take the survey
12:04 < skade> with 1600 responses, I would have expected most of them being non-users
12:05 < jntrnr> skade: right - I think if we make it very clear we want non-user opinions too we might get more
12:06 < skade> Okay, great. I got a review by a friend for our pesky question (sadly late), but we forgot a thing: mental illness. We should note that down for next year.
12:07 < skade> not much more on that
12:07 <@erickt> skade: want to make a ticket for the 2017 survey?
12:07 < skade> will do that
12:07 <@erickt> I think there was another comment or two on reddit and huon on better wording of some questions
12:07 <@erickt> thanks
12:07 < jntrnr> speaking of survey, I don’t know if anyone else wants to jump in, but I’d be happy to help normalize the responses
12:08 < steveklabnik> also some trolling
12:08 < jntrnr> ie taking the free form text and pull out themes, etc
12:08 <@erickt> jntrnr / aturon: how's the international response rate?
12:08 <@erickt> I haven't dug through the replies yet
12:09 < aturon> sorry, was offline for a second
12:09 < jntrnr> erickt: lots of Berlin
12:09 < jntrnr> :)
12:09 < aturon> feels like a lot in Europe generally
12:09 <@erickt> jntrnr: that'd be great on starting to normalize responses. Please make sure you do it in a separate table or doc though, and keep this survey responses raw
12:09 < jntrnr> erickt: agreed
12:10 < jntrnr> pcwalton also did a word cloud, which might be one way we could viz the data for the blog post
12:10 < aturon> skade: erickt: a ticket for the 2017 edition is a great idea -- we should also put in the feedback from the reddit thread
12:10 <@Manishearth> o/
12:10 < aturon> as well as other observations we've had about unclear questions etc
12:10 < skade> https://github.com/rust-community/team/issues/28
12:10 <@erickt> jntrnr: how are we doing outside of Europe and America?
12:10 <@erickt> skade: lol at your ticket
12:11 < jntrnr> erickt: would need to normalize the location responses
12:11 < jntrnr> at a glance it looks like we’re doing relatively okay
12:11 < jntrnr> but will know better later
12:12 < aturon> so for now, i think we should mainly focus on outreach/advertising on the survey, and do more normalization work etc as it draws to a close (unless it's fully
                automated)
12:12 < skade> anyone wnats to contact @tshepang_dev if he nows places to spread that? and maybe @hannelita?
12:12 < skade> (Africa and South America)
12:12 < aturon> steveklabnik: can you reach out to tshepang? i think you've worked most closely with them
12:13 <@Manishearth> skade: I can take point on that, but I might do it much later today
12:13 <@erickt> Manishearth: great!
12:13 < skade> Manishearth we're open for _a month_ :D
12:13 <@Manishearth> :)
12:13 < skade> 15 minutes over
12:14 <@erickt> :)
12:14 < steveklabnik> aturon: i can try, but i don't really know how to contact him. with the @ i'm assuming he's active on twitter?
12:14 <@erickt> anyone have any other thing for the survey?
12:14 < aturon> steveklabnik: not sure -- maybe email address from github? let's figure it out offline
12:15 < hjr3> he is pretty active on twitter
12:15 <@Manishearth> steveklabnik: he tweets
12:15 < steveklabnik> cool
12:15 <@erickt> alright moving on, how about conferences?
12:15 < frewsxcv> (tshepang has an email at http://tshepang.net/about-me.html)
12:15 < skade> steveklabnik http://tshepang.net/
12:15 <@Manishearth> actually, before that could we talk about a diversity thing?
12:15 <@erickt> sure
12:15 < aturon> yes please, was going to say, diversity efforts have been on the agenda for every meeting but we keep not getting to them
12:15 <@erickt> on to diversity!
12:16 <@Manishearth>  (johannh is typing .....)
12:16 < aturon> (we may need to have some email threads or something else async)
12:16 < johannh> so we were talking with larissas who is leading diversity at Mozilla yesterday
12:16 < johannh> and she liked the idea of Mozilla Diversity providing resources for a sort of official Rust Diversity event like RailsBridge or Node Together or Rails Girls
12:17 < johannh> resources = money, afaiu
12:17 <@erickt> nice!
12:17 < hjr3> that is great news
12:17 < johannh> I sent her another email to confirm that
12:17 < skade> I'm meeting with a person interested in running such a thing that used to run Geek Carrots and Rails Girls Warsaw
12:17 < jntrnr> wow!
12:17 < jntrnr> nice :D
12:17 < skade> (wednesday)
12:18 <@erickt> skade: cool!
12:18 < bstrie> johannh: would anyone who has experience running such events be willing to lend a hand to organize them?
12:18 < johannh> it would be great if we could prepare this so that we could start e.g. a few events all other the world
12:18 < skade> I also have a meeting with Microsoft Community DE before the thing in Munich (with alex crichton) about their involvement in our rust communty
12:18 < johannh> I guess you'd have to find local people to organize that
12:18 < johannh> which should be easy in Berlin, for example ;)
12:18 <@erickt> that would be great. johannh, did you get a sense if they'd be able to fund international events?
12:18 < aturon> johannh: can you spell out a little bit what that would look like?
12:18 <@Manishearth> erickt: yes
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12:19 <@erickt> \o/
12:19 < skade> bstrie see my comment, we have a couple of these
12:19 < aturon> johannh: in terms of: how are these events structured? how can people help?
12:19 <@Manishearth> erickt: but volume of events might be an issue. 3-10 events works, 100 does not. etc
12:19 < johannh> yeah, please keep that in mind, we're talking about just a few events for a start
12:19 <@erickt> I'd happily take 3-10 when we have none right now :)
12:19 <@Manishearth> So we basically have local coach volunteers
12:19 <@Manishearth> erickt++
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12:20 < skade> *Bridge events can usually self-fund
12:20 <@Manishearth> skade: how? by folks paying for it?
12:20 < aturon> the Mozilla Rust team is also open to helping pay for travel for mentors
12:20 < skade> you need a room and catering
12:20 < hjr3> i know my company would be willing to provide resources (money) if this program is official
12:20 < skade> usually, you get a room for free at a university and a local company giving you 500 euros for a catering
12:21 <@Manishearth> hjr3: location?
12:21 < johannh> hjr3: +10
12:21 <@erickt> I imagine it'd also help to have training materials
12:21 < skade> Rails Girls is actually making a profit from sposnoring
12:21 <@Manishearth> skade: ah, like that
12:21 < johannh> I think that "official" is the key word here
12:21 < aturon> johannh: can you walk through one example such event? is it a one day thing? hands-on tutorials? talks?
12:21 < skade> the bigger problem is coursework material and general global infrastructure
12:21 < hjr3> west coast. southern california / seattle
12:21 <@Manishearth> erickt: yes, we would need to do that first. I am very fond of nmatsakis' training slides
12:21 < skade> the thing is that events draw finding
12:21 <@Manishearth> however they are intended for an audience with experience in C++ IIRC
12:21 < johannh> aturon: yes, it's usually a one day thing with hands on tutorials
12:21 <@erickt> Manishearth: me too, and yeah they're pretty technical
12:21 <@Manishearth> we have a page somewhere with training materials consolidated
12:22 < skade> so sponsor each and every event and make sure they don't have a problem when they can't find sponsors
12:22 <@Manishearth>  we can work off that
12:22 < johannh> there is a relatively clear separation between mentors and students, students don't need to have any experience
12:22 < aturon> OK, great. various people have been hard at work creating such material, for a range of audiences. i don't remember to what extent the community team has already
                started gathering this together, but we can step it up
12:22 < johannh> usually not even programming experience
12:22 < skade> insurance is probably much more important then money
12:22 <@Manishearth> agreed
12:22 <@erickt> steveklabnik: how much material have you produced so far? have you put together a one (or more) day event?
12:22 < skade> I think the bigger problem for rust is that we can't have a "website in a day" course
12:22 < johannh> yes we would need some sort of Rust team endorsement and branding, like a blog post and Rust in the name
12:22 < johannh> also we need high quality material, as others said
12:22 < skade> johannh that's already covered
12:22 <@Manishearth> erickt: I think the oscon one is like that?
12:23 < skade> and many people will come from many different avenues
12:23 < steveklabnik> erickt: i have been mostly using nmatsakis's stuff from mozlando. i was gonna have to do more but then oscon got cancelled
12:23 <@erickt> aturon: yeah, we just need to be organized about building these decks
12:23 < skade> some with no experience, some with no systems programming expierence, etc.
12:23 < johannh> yup, no matter if this is successful, having an organized set of lessons will really help our efforts going forward
12:23 < skade> I'd contact the bridge foundry this week, if no one minds
12:23 < steveklabnik> skade: i think you could do a website in a day
12:23 < steveklabnik> something like pencil or nickel
12:23 <@Manishearth> IMO it can be done in a day, but it will be p intense
12:24 < aturon> it may be that, for Rust, a different kind of final product than "website" is better
12:24 < nmatsakis> I'm pretty interested in working on improved training materials targeting less experience
12:24 <@Manishearth> right
12:24 < aturon> so i'm wondering if we can push this discussion in the direction of direct action items
12:24 < johannh> so the timeline to get something together could be until London, and announce it afterwards
12:24 < skade> steveklabnik well, but why? In Rails, it makes a lot of sense, but I don't think such workshops should be typecasted like that
12:24 < carols10cents> a game in piston would be good
12:24 < skade> carols10cents yes
12:24 < hjr3> a game would be awesome
12:24 < vladimir-sn> +1
12:25 <@Manishearth> ooh nice
12:25 <@Manishearth> though. graphics can be annoying
12:25 <@erickt> carols10cents: like a pacman or snake clone might not be *that* hard
12:25 < steveklabnik> oh, i think i missed your point. you said "we can't" and so i thought you were talking about possiblity, not if it's the best idea or not
12:25 < aturon> johannh: in terms of official status, that's totally fine; the community and core teams should work closely together here, with community leading and core providing
                support
12:25 < skade> Manishearth yes, but e.g. graphics people can do that already
12:25 < steveklabnik> skade: ^
12:25 < jntrnr> sdl in rust is pretty tolerable if you give them a starting project
12:25 <@erickt> Manishearth: could do it with on the commandline with "\r" to reset the cursor
12:25 <@Manishearth> jntrnr: oh, nice
12:25 < aturon> I suggest we leave off brainstorming on the details for another time
12:25 < skade> yes, so, tl;dr: we should go spend the summer with people who want to do coursework, I have the RustBridge name
12:25 < skade> let's source people actually good at the thing
12:25 < aturon> (and focus on logistics)
12:26 < aturon> johannh: do you have something specific in mind to get together for London? what's needed?
12:26 <@erickt> ok so action items on training material. Someone want to reach out to the piston folks and see if they already have some tutorials on this?
12:26 <@erickt> and the same to iron/nickel/pencil/etc for a website tutorial?
12:26 < steveklabnik> what about the arcaders tutorial?
12:26 < aturon> hmm, can i suggest that we form a dedicated group to try to drive this effort?
12:26 < aturon> so we have a clear point of responsibility
12:26 < skade> johannh aturon we have no confirmation for the oscon workshop in london
12:26 < johannh> aturon: well we have a pretty big list of to-dos for this right now and it would be great to have a meeting in London to check on the status
12:27 < skade> aturon the suggestion is still to form a RustBridge project that works from there ")
12:27 < aturon> skade: hm, I was assuming that "London" was referring to the upcoming Mozilla work week there
12:27 <@Manishearth> also, https://github.com/rust-community/team/issues/11#issuecomment-203500974
12:27 <@Manishearth> forgot about Rurtle
12:27 < skade> ah, that london
12:27 < johannh> yeah I meant "that" London, sorry
12:27 < skade> E_TOO_MUCH_LONDON
12:27 <@Manishearth> though I prefer using LOGO-likes for younger students
12:27 < skade> Manishearth ben has ideas, and he is an OpenTechSchool person
12:27 < aturon> skade: OK, so the RustBridge project will encompass the people driving this; but who is involved? maybe we can put together a roster today
12:28 <@Manishearth> ben?
12:28 <@erickt> aturon: a dedicated group sounds good. if we don't have volunteers here, we can start a community urlo thread to gather them
12:28 <@Manishearth> oh, Kampmann
12:28 < skade> ligthyear is ben
12:28 < carols10cents> E_TOO_MANY_BENS
12:28 <@Manishearth> that^
12:28 <@Manishearth> :)
12:28 < vladimir-sn> i'm happy to volunteer - but probably best to start a thread anyway
12:28 < skade> aturon I'll speak to @a_meba next week and @hannelita, they both have done things like that before
12:28 < aturon> erickt: i'm happy to act as support, wearing both my core team hat (official signoff, advertisement, etc) and Mozilla management hat (financial/logistical support
                where possible)
12:28 < skade> and then grow a structure from there
12:29 <@erickt> aturon: <3
12:29 < johannh> even though these events can self-fund, I will still go ahead with Larissa because that would really make it easier for folks who can't organize self-funding
12:29 < aturon> johannh: absolutely. let's get funding from everywhere we can
12:29 <@erickt> ok so action items, skade will reach out to those folks (want to ask hannelita about the survey instead of Manishearth?)
12:29 < skade> johannh some form of over-arching funding and support structure would be great and having funds for that would help a lot
12:30 <@Manishearth> erickt: hm?
12:30 <@erickt> we'll start a thread with Piston and Web community for getting training material
12:30 < skade> erickt yes
12:30 <@Manishearth> erickt: https://github.com/rust-community/team/issues/11 already exists btw
12:30 < aturon> can we also start either a ticket or rust-community email thread dedicated to RustBridge?
12:30 < skade> I'd prefer such a structure to be self-running, without mandatory involvement of the community team and core for less friction.
12:30 < johannh> we have the Mozilla offices and catering there in any case, but it'd be cool if diversity would let us be more flexible
12:30 <@erickt> Manishearth: you said you'd reach out to hannelita earlier, but if skade's also going to reach out to them then we probably shouldn't be too spammy
12:30 <@Manishearth> erickt: I said I'd reach out to tshepang :)
12:31 <@erickt> Manishearth: oops
12:31 < skade> aturon yep, once I find time between all that
12:31 < aturon> skade: +1, preliminary involvement should be helping bootstrap and structure
12:31 <@Manishearth> erickt: I don't know hannelita, I believe skade does though
12:31 < johannh> skade: +1, but involvement helps legitimize it in the beginning
12:31 < johannh> like aturon said
12:31 < skade> Manishearth She's part of Rust Sao Paolo
12:31 <@Manishearth> skade: yes! but I'd like to kick it off with a nice support system
12:31 < aturon> OK, so we have some reasonable next steps for a RustBridge project
12:31 <@Manishearth> skade: I know, but I don't know her :)
12:31 <@erickt> Manishearth: copied that ticket into the meeting notes
12:32 < aturon> which we'll plan to launch in an official way
12:32 < aturon> i'd like to talk about other efforts as well
12:32 < skade> johannh yes, endorsement is great, I just want to make sure it is not impacted by people being distracted by other important things
12:32 < skade> yes
12:32 <@erickt> aturon: do you see the thread on RustBridge different from getting volunteers to drive diversity efforts?
12:32 < aturon> erickt: i think we want a dedicated team focusing on getting RustBridge going
12:32 < aturon> as opposed to diversity in general
12:32 <@Manishearth> aturon: strike team?
12:33 < aturon> exactly
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12:33 <@Manishearth> wfm
12:33 < aturon> it's best if there is clear responsibility/ownership to help make sure we keep up momentum
12:33 <@Manishearth> right
12:33 < nmatsakis> more specific == better
12:33 < aturon> OK, so thinking beyond RustBridge,
12:33 <@erickt> fyi, here are the action items I'm noting down: https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/rust-community
12:34 < skade> nmatsakis ack
12:34 <@erickt> shoulda sent that out earlier
12:34 < aturon> nmatsakis, maybe you can mention some of your efforts and obstacles with your local meetup?
12:34 < aturon> basically, there are several of us that really want to help on the diversity front, but don't know how/haven't had luck doing it effectively
12:34 < nmatsakis> I don't know how exciting it is; just that I've been trying to reach out to lots of meetups locally, including diversity-focused ones, and haven't heard much
                   back --
12:34 < nmatsakis> though the one group that did get back to me
12:34 <@Manishearth> erickt: I'm clearing etherpad colors, btw, white-on-maroon is hard to read in the morning :)
12:34 < nmatsakis> was focused specifically on non-programmers
12:34 < nmatsakis> so wokring on beginning training materials woudl really help
12:34 <@erickt> Manishearth: :)
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12:35 <@Manishearth> aturon: we haven't had a concrete plan yet AFAICT. This is a good start though
12:35 < nmatsakis> as for the others, I imagine I have to just ... persist
12:35 < nmatsakis> and/or maybe go to some other meetups? hard to find the time
12:35 < aturon> Manishearth: we haven't had something as broad as RustBridge. but we've been trying more local/specific things
12:36 <@Manishearth> I am not sure how much time I'll have immediately after I join, but I can try to help out with materials
12:36 < aturon> i'd love to hear from people with more experience here about what the most effective steps seem to be
12:36 <@Manishearth> aturon: right
12:36 < johannh> that would be skade
12:36 <@Manishearth> aturon: skade has organized basically a rustbridge event in the past
12:36 <@Manishearth> just not called that i guess
12:36 < aturon> do we think that things like RustBridge are our best bet?
12:36 < skade> it was an event together with WomenWhoCode
12:37 < skade> hate to bring that up again, but I do get a lot of responses from local groups that they don't want to support the project currently, as it is pubically very
               non-diverse
12:37 <@erickt> can we partner with an organization, where we effectively do all the work, but do it under a *Bridge group
12:37 < skade> the state that they don't want to spread mozilla job material isn't helping
12:37 < johannh> skade: what project exactly?
12:37 < skade> johannh the rust project
12:37 < aturon> btw, one data point i was pointed at recently: see https://medium.com/@wifelette/emberconf-2016-the-morning-after-post-mortem-b37d195b916b#.ra9ge6jqm, specifically
                "The Ladies"
12:37 < nmatsakis> mozilla job material?
12:37 < johannh> oh
12:38 <@erickt> skade: what do you mean by they don't want to spread job material?
12:38 < skade> erickt yes
12:38 < skade> and we are under watch, I have met at least one person that knew how many job positions were filled and how
12:39 < aturon> skade: not sure what that means? job positions where?
12:39 < skade> aturon at mozilla, for servo and rustc
12:39 < steveklabnik> to make it concrete, jntrnr being hired
12:39 < steveklabnik> as one example, specifically
12:40 < steveklabnik> there was a job open, it got filled, people see
12:40 < aturon> hm ok
12:40 < steveklabnik> (and it's not specifically about jntrnr, who is awesome. just that it's yet another white dude)
12:40  * jntrnr understands
12:40 < skade> yeah, it's not the individuals, but diversity-wise, team.html got worse then last year
12:41 < carols10cents> hi
12:41 < aturon> :)
12:41 <@erickt> :)
12:41 < jntrnr> it got better in some ways :)
12:41 < skade> carols10cents :)
12:41 <@erickt> but still, not good enough
12:41 < jntrnr> but yeah, not good enough
12:42 <@Manishearth> yep
12:42 < skade> I'm going to keep my mouth shut publicly about that, but I'm on an event next week where someone will certainly ask me about the outcome of my complaint last year :)
12:42 < skade> sadly, I haven't got much to give
12:42 < skade> and that makes outreach hard
12:43 < nmatsakis> so there are two questions I guess
12:43 < jntrnr> fwiw - and I don’t know if this is important to bring up here, but there’s more to diversity than just “white dude”, no?
12:43 < skade> So, to give that a positive spin: where's the way out of this.
12:43 < steveklabnik> jntrnr: absolutely.
12:43 < johannh> jntrnr: yes, absolutely
12:43 <@Manishearth> jntrnr: well yeah. intersectionality etc
12:43 < skade> jntrnr definitely, but "who gets the money" is an important topic at the moment
12:43 <@brson> skade: how is team.html worse than last year? whate are the numbers?
12:43 < nmatsakis> what we can do to bring in a larger audience, which I think we sort of *have* been talking about, in terms of RustBridge etc, but maybe there are other similar
                   initiatives (that's sort of what I've been trying locally, if unsuccessfully)
12:43 < johannh> jntrnr: it's just that this is a pretty obvious starting point to non-diversity
12:43 <@Manishearth> jntrnr: also, I'm not a white dude, but I don't count as particularly diverse, since IIRC we're overrepresented in tech in the US
12:44 < nmatsakis> and whether there is a way to do more in terms of cultivating existing people in our community
12:44 < nmatsakis> one thing that aturon and I (and others) have discussed for eample
12:44 < nmatsakis> is organizing bug hunt weeks
12:44 < nmatsakis> specifically targeting bringing in new contributors
12:44 < skade> brson there hasn't been much visible change, community team lost a member and gained a member, the teams in itself got bigger
12:44 < johannh> jntrnr: we can't say "we're diverse in other things" if there are only white dudes on the page
12:44 < nmatsakis> where we all take some time to focus on that, and try to drum up excitement etc
12:44 < aturon> i've been sitting here trying to figure out how to comment on the hiring front. it's complicated. of course, we *did* hire edunham previously. and i'm hearing some
                hopeful things about the reamining servo positions
12:45 < johannh> (I know you were not saying that) :)
12:45 < jntrnr> right - having strong, visible diversity is important.  Totally get it
12:45 < jntrnr> just hard to talk about invisible minority type stuff as well
12:45 < skade> aturon oh sure, but after last years fallout, noticeable improvements are not there.
12:45 < vladimir-sn> you mean the CTO thing?
12:45 < skade> which is okay, but we should step lightly there and we should address it
12:46 < aturon> skade: i feel like we're mixing up hiring and the official rust teams
12:46 <@Manishearth> vladimir-sn: no, see the subteam announcement
12:46 < steveklabnik> they are intertwined, and people don't always draw the distinction either
12:46 < skade> aturon outsiders don't make that much of a difference and the team page doesn't make clear who's from where
12:47 < aturon> skade: sure. but the approach to improve things is quite different in the two cases :)
12:47 < skade> aturon yes, 100% that
12:47 < steveklabnik> also, things like "I know mozilla is in charge of this project, they had a job opening, who did they hire", it may not even be about the teams pages in cases
12:47 < aturon> in terms of the official teams -- i hate to bring up the old "pipeline" problem, but at the moment, a key problem is simply a lack of candidates for many of the
                subteams
12:47 < skade> it also has a marketing component, it's a nasty field, because I'm sure no one would want to be handed around as a token :)
12:47 < steveklabnik> and yes, mozilla is not TECHNICALLY 'in charge' due to the teams setup, but it's a perception
12:47 < johannh> skade: should we add a "staff" badge to underline staff non-diversity? :P
12:47 < aturon> so, what i've been thinking about there is two-fold:
12:48 < skade> aturon yes, but that has been the argument last year :)
12:48 < skade> johannh maybe :)
12:48 < nmatsakis> I know it's a joke,
12:48 < aturon> on the one hand, opening the front end of the pipeline, through efforts like RustBridge
12:48 < nmatsakis> but I don't think "staff" makes any sense, since it implies a sort of owneship that I do not see
12:48 < aturon> on the other hand, possibly setting up a formal mentoring system
12:48 < skade> nmatsakis yep, I see that
12:48 < aturon> that's specifically geared toward underrepresented groups
12:48 < aturon> (see the link i sent earlier)
12:48 < aturon> carols10cents: btw, i'd really love to hear your thoughts here...
12:49 <@Manishearth> aturon: now that I've graduated I suspect I'll have time to re-bootstrap the mentoring program
12:49 < skade> aturon yes, but for example, having a position in RGSoC or Gnome Outreach program would have been something and they have passed
12:49 <@Manishearth> depends on how much work I have otherwise :)
12:49 <@Manishearth> skade: there are two projects in rust iirc in rgsoc
12:49 <@erickt> aturon: the emberconf link?
12:49 < aturon> erickt: yes
12:49 <@Manishearth> actually more than two?
12:49 < carols10cents> hi so, yeah i put my name in for the mozilla rustlang position, and was honored to make it to the technical phone screen
12:49 <@Manishearth> I would love to have help with the mentoring stuff though
12:49 < skade> Manishearth could any of them be trained to move to compiler building?
12:49 < aturon> i believe servo is also doing outreachy? i know we've not had a lot of success on that before
12:50 <@Manishearth> and I should probably start mentoring triage and stuff
12:50 < skade> oh yeah, it's outreachy now :)
12:50 < carols10cents> but i am nowhere near as qualified as jntrnr !
12:50 <@Manishearth> because that's important and useful and helpful and we need more people
12:50 < jdm> servo had a great outreachy intern last quarter, fyi
12:50 < aturon> hi jdm! also would love to get your thoughts here
12:50 <@Manishearth> skade: IMO compiler building isn't hard, just slightly different and intimidating
12:50 <@Manishearth> so yeah
12:50 < skade> Manishearth so much this
12:50 < skade> it's a huge project and without showing people around, it will be hard
12:51 <@Manishearth> skade: my recurring advice for compiler building is "work on easy bugs in clippy". Because we have a shitton of those, and we let you muck with compiler
                     internals without being exposed to the full compiler
12:51 < skade> I see the problems of getting people on board with low time and constraints :/
12:51 < nmatsakis> so I think one thing is that we've been working out best strategy for e.g. interns and outreachy and similar programs; servo (and specifically jdm) has been
                   blazing some trails we should learn from
12:51 <@Manishearth> it's a good step up
12:51 <@Manishearth> and many of our contributors have had fun in rustc too
12:51 <@Manishearth> nmatsakis: +1
12:51 <@Manishearth> nmatsakis: I documented many of our tactics in that blog post
12:52 < nmatsakis> yes, and aturon/I were just recently talkign to larsberg/jack about this point specifically
12:52 <@erickt> Manishearth: can you add your blog post to https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/rust-community
12:52 <@Manishearth> skade: yeah :/ Rust doesn't take time to work on, really (pick your bugs carefully), but compile times are forever
12:52 < nmatsakis> Manishearth: wait, which blog post? :)
12:52 < nmatsakis> well, some bugs are easier than others :)
12:52 <@Manishearth> nmatsakis: http://manishearth.github.io/blog/2016/01/03/making-your-open-source-project-newcomer-friendly/
12:52 < skade> point being now; it's a thing that should be addressed in our blog post, possibly with a semi-committed timeframe
12:52 < skade> timeframe being "next year", maybe?
12:52 <@Manishearth> nmatsakis: there are also hard bugs that can be broken up into bite size thingies
12:53 <@Manishearth> erickt: so lazy
12:53 < aturon> ok, so: we got off on this discussion by skade raising the subteams etc. but to me, this isn't a problem we can solve directly -- it has to flow out of efforts like
                RustBridge and mentoring
12:53 <@erickt> Manishearth: fyi, illogiq said he hoped to make future community meetings when his schedule works out
12:53 <@erickt> Manishearth: :p
12:53 < carols10cents> skade: what's a thing that should be addressed with a timeframe?
12:53 < aturon> so i'd prefer to continue focusing on what we can do to improve those efforts
12:53 < nmatsakis> Manishearth: c (e.g. I've been trying with incremental to make efforts in this direction, seems to be working somewhat)
12:53 <@Manishearth> erickt: yay. <3 llogiq
12:53 < skade> carols10cents lack of team diversity
12:53 < carols10cents> skade: rust teams or mozilla teams?
12:53 < skade> rust teams
12:53 <@Manishearth> aturon++
12:53 <@erickt> alright folks, we're coming upon the hour
12:54 <@erickt> any other action items for diversity?
12:54 < nmatsakis> skade: what do you mean by "addressed" I guess is what I am unclear on; if what you mean is the sort of things aturon was saying? seems good?
12:54 < johannh> ok Manishearth and I really got to get to our thing
12:54  * nmatsakis oops
12:54 < aturon> skade: i'm unsure about what a timeframe means here. again, it feels like the focus should be on the positive outreach efforts; and if we do well on those, the
                subteams will naturally show it, no?
12:54 <@erickt> nmatsakis: can you put on the https://public.etherpad-mozilla.org/p/rust-community what groups you've contacted and where you had success?
12:54 < nmatsakis> erickt: I can
12:54 <@erickt> thanks
12:54 < skade> aturon no one shows up naturally
12:55 <@Manishearth> cya!
12:55 < aturon> skade: the start of that sentence was "outreach efforts" :)
12:55 < aturon> basically, i'm trying to say: i don't think the subteams are something we can attack directly
12:55 < carols10cents> it feels like a deadlock situation. we can't get people to come without having visible diversity on the teams page, we can't put visibly diverse people on
                       the teams page if they're not around
12:55 < aturon> we have to work on outreach an mentoring
12:55 < steveklabnik> carols10cents: ++++
12:55 < nmatsakis> carols10cents: (indeed)
12:56 < skade> aturon sure we can, you can train up people, many orgs do that
12:56 < aturon> skade: that's what i mean by mentoring :)
12:56 < skade> in any case, strategy for this are out of scope for now, but, well... workshop?
12:56 < arielby> I don't care as long as we don't get an affirmative action hire
12:57 <@erickt> so in these last 4 minutes, are the from RustEurope here?
12:57 < bstrie> carols10cents: "visible diversity" is a sticking point, I know plenty of women on github who really, really don't want their faces in their github avatars
12:57 < aturon> skade: by "workshop", do you mean you want to set up a dedicated call on this?
12:57 < skade> carols10cents yes, that's the catch22 that I complained about last year, we could have done that faster
12:57 < carols10cents> bstrie: exactly
12:57 < carols10cents> also a problem
12:57 < skade> erickt we have a call with them in 4 minutes
12:57 <@erickt> skade: great!
12:57 <@erickt> I wanted to make sure I connected them with you :)
12:57 < skade> carols10cents not wanting to raise that again too much, but it still exists
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12:58 < aturon> in terms of blog posts, what i'd more like to do is announce things like RustBridge and a dedicated mentoring program (if we can get such a thing off the ground)
12:59 < carols10cents> aside from having my face on the page, i feel pretty helpless
12:59 < bstrie> carols10cents: it's not your problem to solve :P
12:59 < carols10cents> i'm here. i don't know why there aren't more women here.
12:59 < carols10cents> bstrie: good ;)
12:59 < aturon> should we set up a dedicated call on this topic?
12:59 < skade> yes
12:59 < aturon> we could potentially bring in people who've had success in other communities
13:00 < aturon> e.g. Leah's mentoring program
13:00 < nmatsakis> +1
13:00 < bstrie> there are women here. I know of several in the rust community, but their nicks don't make it obvious
13:00 < aturon> which AIUI was extremely successful
13:00 < aturon> OK, erickt action item: get a call set up :)
13:00 <@erickt> aturon: already on the list :)
13:00 < aturon> sweet!
13:00 < skade> yeah, I think there's not much _factual_ that excludes people
13:01 < bstrie> which, again, is the sticking point of "visible" diversity. it would be utterly stupid of us to extend a team membership iff they're willing to out themselves as a
                woman
13:01 < aturon> yes, fortunately we're starting from a relatively good place in that respect
13:01 <@erickt> aturon: maybe we can get leah to join the call, or attend a meeting
13:01 < skade> I mean, go to a C++ conference, it's all dudes and some are really _frustrated_ and see Rust as better pastures (I had that last year)
13:01 < aturon> erickt: yes. call is probably easiest
13:01 < skade> on the other hand, we should avoid tokenism at all cost, it just burns you in the long run
13:01 < skade> (been there, done that)
13:02 < skade> ack to call
13:02 < skade> it won't be fixed tomorrow, but eventually
13:02 < aturon> FWIW, i agree with skade that we haven't done enough on this over the last year. but i don't think it helps to beat ourselves up too much about that. the community
                team is in a much better place now, and we already have some plans in the works!
13:02 < skade> carols10cents and thanks for being around *bows head*
13:02 < aturon> so let's try to stay positive and focused on those efforts
13:02 < bstrie> one thing we can do, somewhat related to diversity, is start finding people on other continents and empowering them to work on rust outreach in their local areas.
                sow the seeds of world domination!
13:02 <@erickt> +1
13:03 < skade> aturon yeah, I just think having a stern and serious statement about that would be a good first step
13:03 < bstrie> e.g., I'm sure we can find someone in the SK rust community who could use some organizational assistance
13:03 <@erickt> bstrie: and now we got that survey we can hopefully start to understand our demographics better
13:03 < bstrie> I haven't spoken to any rust users in brazil, but that's a huge market too
13:04 < skade> doens't have to be large
13:04 < aturon> skade: we can talk about it in the call, but i disagree; i think getting some efforts together, and have more positive announcements about how to get involved, are
                likelier to build foward momentum here
13:04 <@erickt> skade: I'd love some concrete steps too. It's far too easy to write up a post and not have that followthroug
13:04 < aturon> in any case, we're over time and should cover this more in the dedicated call
13:05 <@erickt> indeed
13:05 <@Manishearth> bstrie: some of them have started using their full names on github though
13:05 <@Manishearth> which is nice to see
13:05 <@erickt> well, I have to run to work, would you all like to continue this discussion?
13:05 < skade> aturon erickt i disagree strongly with that
13:05 <@Manishearth> erickt: we can just gang up on you tomorrow and continue it
13:05 <@erickt> if so, would someone want to post the meeting minutes
13:05 < skade> a lot of people will interpret that at letting things drop under the table after one year
13:05 <@erickt> Manishearth: :p
13:06 < nmatsakis> skade: perhaps the distinction is just what "stern and serious" means
13:06 < skade> and it sets good groundwork for followups
13:06 < nmatsakis> I think admitting that we are not satisfied with our efforts, while also having things to show that it's not just a pointless apology but something we intend to
                   improve, may be a good idea,
13:06 < skade> doesn't have to be more then "work on the diversity side didn't improve the situation much and we will double our efforts"
13:06 <@Manishearth> yes
13:07 < aturon> skade: OK, *that* sounds fine
13:07 < nmatsakis> yes
13:07 < aturon> i just don't want to demoralize the people -- including many of us! -- who *have* been working on this over hte last year
13:07 < skade> no need to put fingers in wounds or soething
13:07 < nmatsakis> but at the same time no need to pretend everything is perfect
13:07 <@Manishearth> I do feel things like johannh's RustBridge plan are a really good step forward though. It's visible, and should have a good impact
13:07 <@Manishearth> aturon++
13:07 < aturon> so, concretely:
13:08 <@erickt> skade: that's fine, I just want to *also* have taken steps towards organizing events and other things
13:08 <@erickt> so it's not *just* words
13:08 < aturon> for the anniversary post, talking about where we are on diversity seems fine, but i'd *love* to mention that RustBridge is getting started
13:08 < aturon> do you think it's too early to say the latter?
13:08 < aturon> or at this point, do we feel confident enough that we'll get it off the ground?
13:08 < aturon> if so, we can even point people toward a place to get involved
13:08 < skade> aturon no, don't
13:08 < skade> mention it 2 weeks later
13:08 < nmatsakis> we could perhaps hedge as "we are working on events targeting programmers" or something?
13:08 < skade> sell stuff in small doses
13:08 < nmatsakis> a common strategy is
13:09 < nmatsakis> announce your intentions, then announce when you do it
13:09 < carols10cents> erickt: i'll get the transcript up when conversation dies down :)
13:09 < aturon> yes, i don't see this as either/os
13:09 < aturon> either/or*
13:09 < aturon> that is, we can mention it briefly in the anniversary post (which will be talking about community in general),
13:09 <@erickt> carols10cents: I'm trying not to pay attention, but it's too interesting...
13:09 < aturon> and then have a dedicated announcement when it's launched
13:09  * nmatsakis /kicks erickt
13:09 <@erickt> haha
13:09 < carols10cents> action item for erickt: quit job
13:10 < aturon> skade: does that sound reasonable?
13:10 <@erickt> aturon / carols10cents / skade: what if we get our "lets organize a subteam on diversity" htead out tonight
13:10 < aturon> another opportunity here is when we announce the survey results
13:10 < aturon> which are clearly going to be dismal on this front
13:10 <@erickt> and mention it in the birthday party to help drive people to it?
13:11 < skade> aturon let me talk to the bridge foundry first, if they are responsive,  we do
13:11 < skade> otherwise, we do during the week
13:11 < aturon> OK, sounds good
13:11 <@Manishearth> we can also have a vague "coming soon: somehting!" blurb in the post
13:11 < skade> let's agree on _very soon_
13:11 <@erickt> (me steps away for real this time...)
13:11 <@Manishearth> "We're working on events that <..>"
13:11 <@erickt> Manishearth: haha
13:12  * skade is in a call in parallel
13:12 <@Manishearth> me too, technically
13:12 <@Manishearth> town hall, more of
13:12 < aturon> skade: i am agreed on _very soon_
13:12 < nmatsakis> +1
13:12 < aturon> Manishearth: yes, sounds like a good plan B
13:13 < aturon> OK, sounds like we should close out this meeting for today?
13:13 < skade> also, i'll try to talk everyone who runs a project into running a This week in $project :)
13:13 <@Manishearth> yep!
13:13 < skade> ah, yeah, rustfest announcement will be before or on the birthday
13:13 <@Manishearth> skade: rough idea of what very soon means? I'm unsure if we can produce such a thing in a month unless we restrict to a single location
13:13 <@erickt> (carols10cents: back!)
13:14 < aturon> skade: OK -- for the official blog post, i'd like to say something, can you let me know what you want me to say?
13:14 -!- listochkin [textual@moz-b46g2p.equate.volia.net] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
13:14 <@Manishearth> skade: TWI* is becoming something really hip, apparently. I've heard that both moz and nonmoz people want to do it for their own teams
13:14 < aturon> don't want to steal your thunder, but also want the visibility/official stamp of the main blog post
13:14 < skade> Manishearth we can announce that we have the structure, workshops can be out for a few month if we want
13:14 < skade> aturon yeah :)
13:14 <@Manishearth> skade: oh, that way. wfm
13:14 <@Manishearth> erickt: y u no job?
13:14 < skade> aturon sure, do that
13:14 < aturon> skade: OK. would be great to have details by Friday if possible
13:15 < skade> yeah, we're currently working around the clock...
13:15 < skade> rustfest.eu/home.html is the page by the way
13:15 < skade> (moving to index once we are "live")
13:15 < aturon> awesome!
13:16 < skade> also: microsoft might want to be a front-and-center sponsor
13:16 < bstrie> oh wow
13:16 <@erickt> skade: +1
13:16 <@Manishearth> skade: niiice
13:16 <@Manishearth> skade: are they doing anything with rs?
13:17 < aturon> ok, gotta go. this was a great meeting, though; i'm so excited about RustBridge!
13:17 < nmatsakis> me too
13:20 < jntrnr> this is news to me :)
13:20 < jntrnr> I’m also interested to hear what MS is doing with Rust
13:22 < skade> they're mostly interested in casting a wide net in FOSS communities
13:23 <@Manishearth> jntrnr: I asked last year (a month after 1.0), and the feel I got about it was that it might be used for experiments, but it would need to be proven stable and
                     supported to be used
13:23 < jntrnr> Manishearth: that’s what I’d expect to

13:23 < jntrnr> I’ve had MS friends reach out to me who were doing it in their free time
13:23 < jntrnr> but nothing serious yet
13:23 <@Manishearth> I didn't ask people who actually would make this decision, btw, didn't know where to find them -- just asked random employees who I knew
13:23 <@Manishearth> makes sense