Restore material property as a superproperty of artMedium, applicable to Product, CreativeWork #1294

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danbri opened this Issue Aug 10, 2016 · 27 comments

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danbri commented Aug 10, 2016

Many things beyond VisualArtwork have materials that can be described. We had http://schema.org/material for VisualArtwork but it was renamed to give us http://schema.org/artMedium.

Proposal here is to bring back 'material' as a superproperty of artMedium but applicable to more types of thing (suggest Product + CreativeWork). Definition would be "A material that something is made from. "typical values would be: leather, wool, cotton, paper." (Text/URL, to allow for controlled vocabulary).

(The property would be repeated for multiple values, rather than parsing out comma-separated lists.)

/cc @lazaruscorporation re VisualArtwork and @mfhepp re Product

@danbri danbri self-assigned this Aug 10, 2016

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/cc @RichardWallis re bib.schema.org + archives etc perspective on CreativeWork materials

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danbri commented Aug 10, 2016

/cc @RichardWallis re bib.schema.org + archives etc perspective on CreativeWork materials

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Given that we have already allocated the term /material, I've convinced myself that this is a good idea (and better than wasting it with a redirect). Implemented for review:

http://webschemas.org/material

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danbri commented Aug 10, 2016

Given that we have already allocated the term /material, I've convinced myself that this is a good idea (and better than wasting it with a redirect). Implemented for review:

http://webschemas.org/material

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I have no problem with this. In fact I think that VisualArtwork should be changed so that it just uses the proposed "material" property inherited from CreativeWork rather than having a specific "artMedium" property.

My reasoning can be seen on the second example I provided on the http://schema.org/VisualArtwork page - Tracey Emin's "My Bed" art installation, where the values of "artMedium" are:

  "artMedium": "bedsheets",
  "artMedium": "condoms",
  "artMedium": "a pair of knickers",
  "artMedium": "pair of slippers",
  "artMedium": "bed"

Simply put, there is no difference (these days) between an "art medium" and a more general "material".

But if we don't want to deprecate "artMedium" then that's fine - publishers can always choose to use the inherited "material" property" instead as it simply means the same thing.

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lazaruscorporation commented Aug 10, 2016

I have no problem with this. In fact I think that VisualArtwork should be changed so that it just uses the proposed "material" property inherited from CreativeWork rather than having a specific "artMedium" property.

My reasoning can be seen on the second example I provided on the http://schema.org/VisualArtwork page - Tracey Emin's "My Bed" art installation, where the values of "artMedium" are:

  "artMedium": "bedsheets",
  "artMedium": "condoms",
  "artMedium": "a pair of knickers",
  "artMedium": "pair of slippers",
  "artMedium": "bed"

Simply put, there is no difference (these days) between an "art medium" and a more general "material".

But if we don't want to deprecate "artMedium" then that's fine - publishers can always choose to use the inherited "material" property" instead as it simply means the same thing.

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RichardWallis Aug 11, 2016

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I support the proposal to resurrect material with a domain of CreativeWork and Product - it is not just VisualArtworks that are made from stuff.

My inclination is to keep artMedium as the value it adds is a more art based description of the item. This could help enhanced description e.g:
material: Canvas
artMedium: Watercolour

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RichardWallis commented Aug 11, 2016

I support the proposal to resurrect material with a domain of CreativeWork and Product - it is not just VisualArtworks that are made from stuff.

My inclination is to keep artMedium as the value it adds is a more art based description of the item. This could help enhanced description e.g:
material: Canvas
artMedium: Watercolour

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lazaruscorporation Aug 11, 2016

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Hi Richard

Re. your example, "canvas" would actually be the property of a VisualArtwork's "artworkSurface" property, not it's "artMedium" property.

The typical way a piece of 2-dimensional artwork is described is "medium ON surface" - e.g. Oil on Canvas, Pencil on Paper, Watercolour on Board, etc. VisualArtwork currently models this using "artMedium" on "artworkSurface", for example:

`

  • Materials:
    oil on canvas

  • `
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    lazaruscorporation commented Aug 11, 2016

    Hi Richard

    Re. your example, "canvas" would actually be the property of a VisualArtwork's "artworkSurface" property, not it's "artMedium" property.

    The typical way a piece of 2-dimensional artwork is described is "medium ON surface" - e.g. Oil on Canvas, Pencil on Paper, Watercolour on Board, etc. VisualArtwork currently models this using "artMedium" on "artworkSurface", for example:

    `

  • Materials:
    oil on canvas

  • `
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    RichardWallis Aug 11, 2016

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    Hi Paul,
    Thanks for correcting me on that.

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    RichardWallis commented Aug 11, 2016

    Hi Paul,
    Thanks for correcting me on that.

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    lazaruscorporation Aug 11, 2016

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    As such, I think we should extend the Proposal slightly to bring back 'material' as a superproperty of both artMedium and artworkSurface - they're both materials, just playing different roles in a piece of visual artwork.

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    lazaruscorporation commented Aug 11, 2016

    As such, I think we should extend the Proposal slightly to bring back 'material' as a superproperty of both artMedium and artworkSurface - they're both materials, just playing different roles in a piece of visual artwork.

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    danbri Aug 11, 2016

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    Interesting idea, thanks @lazaruscorporation - let's do that. It will then look almost as if we planned it ;)

    Is defining material as "A material that something is made from, e.g. leather, wool, cotton, paper." adequate for both subproperties?

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    danbri commented Aug 11, 2016

    Interesting idea, thanks @lazaruscorporation - let's do that. It will then look almost as if we planned it ;)

    Is defining material as "A material that something is made from, e.g. leather, wool, cotton, paper." adequate for both subproperties?

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    lazaruscorporation Aug 11, 2016

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    Sounds good to me

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    lazaruscorporation commented Aug 11, 2016

    Sounds good to me

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    RichardWallis Aug 11, 2016

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    +1

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    RichardWallis commented Aug 11, 2016

    +1

    @danbri danbri closed this in ab9af78 Aug 11, 2016

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    danbri Aug 11, 2016

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    Prematurely closed the issue, but I think this is looking good:

    http://webschemas.org/material

    Please take a look, @chaals @nicolastorzec @shankarnat @tmarshbing @scor @vholland @rvguha (and @mfhepp is on vacation...).

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    danbri commented Aug 11, 2016

    Prematurely closed the issue, but I think this is looking good:

    http://webschemas.org/material

    Please take a look, @chaals @nicolastorzec @shankarnat @tmarshbing @scor @vholland @rvguha (and @mfhepp is on vacation...).

    @danbri danbri reopened this Aug 11, 2016

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    danbri Aug 11, 2016

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    I suggest we also edit or add a quick example of a creativework (e.g. sculpture) and/or product, to illustrate the resurrected superproperty. Contributions welcomed...

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    danbri commented Aug 11, 2016

    I suggest we also edit or add a quick example of a creativework (e.g. sculpture) and/or product, to illustrate the resurrected superproperty. Contributions welcomed...

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    thadguidry Aug 11, 2016

    @danbri @lazaruscorporation @RichardWallis

    Let's also allow artMedium and artworkSurface to expect a type of Product.

    That way artists, museums, art historians get manufacturer and other nice properties for describing VisualArtwork's for free. My wife only does her colored pencil drawings with Prismacolor pencils. Dr. Pepper bottling company has some art in their museum that only includes Dr. Pepper bottles (not Pepsi or Coca-cola)

    @danbri @lazaruscorporation @RichardWallis

    Let's also allow artMedium and artworkSurface to expect a type of Product.

    That way artists, museums, art historians get manufacturer and other nice properties for describing VisualArtwork's for free. My wife only does her colored pencil drawings with Prismacolor pencils. Dr. Pepper bottling company has some art in their museum that only includes Dr. Pepper bottles (not Pepsi or Coca-cola)

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    vholland Aug 11, 2016

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    +1 to the change at http://webschemas.org/material

    I also like the idea of extending the range to include Product, so if someone decides to create a sculpture inspired by Andy Warhol's Campbell's Soup Cans, we describe that.

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    vholland commented Aug 11, 2016

    +1 to the change at http://webschemas.org/material

    I also like the idea of extending the range to include Product, so if someone decides to create a sculpture inspired by Andy Warhol's Campbell's Soup Cans, we describe that.

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    thadguidry Aug 11, 2016

    @vholland Actually you cannot do that currently. There is no form of 'inspiredBy' property on CreativeWork ( @RichardWallis how did the bib group miss this? ) and that is an added need from what I can see. Someone open an issue for that please.

    @vholland Actually you cannot do that currently. There is no form of 'inspiredBy' property on CreativeWork ( @RichardWallis how did the bib group miss this? ) and that is an added need from what I can see. Someone open an issue for that please.

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    Right. Currently, I cannot specify the sculpture was inspired by the Warhol piece and I cannot specify I am using Campbell's soup cans as the medium (other than as text).

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    vholland commented Aug 11, 2016

    Right. Currently, I cannot specify the sculpture was inspired by the Warhol piece and I cannot specify I am using Campbell's soup cans as the medium (other than as text).

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    http://schema.org/isBasedOn is in that direction but with a more concrete and less inspirational tone.

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    danbri commented Aug 11, 2016

    http://schema.org/isBasedOn is in that direction but with a more concrete and less inspirational tone.

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    The Bib group I seem to remember were not inspired to come up with such a term, which is not a common one in bibliographic metadata I believe. isBasedOn would be more appropriate there.

    I personally agree that inspiredBy would be a useful addition.

    In isolation, does extending the range of material to include Product make sense or are we being a bit edge-case here? Or are we looking for another subtype of material createdWith? createdFrom? (with Product in its range)?

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    RichardWallis commented Aug 11, 2016

    The Bib group I seem to remember were not inspired to come up with such a term, which is not a common one in bibliographic metadata I believe. isBasedOn would be more appropriate there.

    I personally agree that inspiredBy would be a useful addition.

    In isolation, does extending the range of material to include Product make sense or are we being a bit edge-case here? Or are we looking for another subtype of material createdWith? createdFrom? (with Product in its range)?

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    It does feel a little corner-case, but if it also helps bridge these two fairly separate corners of schema.org it could be of value. Are there any art-making-and-sharing sites where people catalogue their materials in such obsessive detail that this product data could actually be available?

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    danbri commented Aug 11, 2016

    It does feel a little corner-case, but if it also helps bridge these two fairly separate corners of schema.org it could be of value. Are there any art-making-and-sharing sites where people catalogue their materials in such obsessive detail that this product data could actually be available?

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    lazaruscorporation Aug 11, 2016

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    I'd rather not add another createdWith/createdFrom subtype of material - I would have thought that 'material' (or the more specialised 'artMedium' for VisualArtwork) is enough - the value of 'artMedium' can be set as a Text value of "Dr. Pepper bottles"

    Are there any art-making-and-sharing sites where people catalogue their materials in such obsessive detail that this product data could actually be available?

    Not obsessively by brand, but they do by controlled vocabulary (which is already permitted, as described in my blog post on integrating schema.org/VisualArtwork with the Getty AAT Vocabs (esp. artMaterial and artworkSurface) - http://www.lazaruscorporation.co.uk/blogs/arts-tech/posts/getty-aat-linked-open-data-in-schemadotorg-visualartwork)

    Here's a live example (of mine!) that actually does name the brand of paper: http://www.lazaruscorporation.co.uk/artists/paul-watson/drawings/the-procession-drawing

    and here's the relevant markup:

    <span property="schema:artMedium" resource="http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300022414">Charcoal</span> on <span property="schema:artworkSurface" resource="http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300014172">Paper (Fabriano 'Five' 300gsm)</span>

    The controlled vocabulary link is just to the record for "printing paper", but the text value of the artworkSurface does mention the paper brand (and its weight).

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    lazaruscorporation commented Aug 11, 2016

    I'd rather not add another createdWith/createdFrom subtype of material - I would have thought that 'material' (or the more specialised 'artMedium' for VisualArtwork) is enough - the value of 'artMedium' can be set as a Text value of "Dr. Pepper bottles"

    Are there any art-making-and-sharing sites where people catalogue their materials in such obsessive detail that this product data could actually be available?

    Not obsessively by brand, but they do by controlled vocabulary (which is already permitted, as described in my blog post on integrating schema.org/VisualArtwork with the Getty AAT Vocabs (esp. artMaterial and artworkSurface) - http://www.lazaruscorporation.co.uk/blogs/arts-tech/posts/getty-aat-linked-open-data-in-schemadotorg-visualartwork)

    Here's a live example (of mine!) that actually does name the brand of paper: http://www.lazaruscorporation.co.uk/artists/paul-watson/drawings/the-procession-drawing

    and here's the relevant markup:

    <span property="schema:artMedium" resource="http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300022414">Charcoal</span> on <span property="schema:artworkSurface" resource="http://vocab.getty.edu/aat/300014172">Paper (Fabriano 'Five' 300gsm)</span>

    The controlled vocabulary link is just to the record for "printing paper", but the text value of the artworkSurface does mention the paper brand (and its weight).

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    thadguidry Aug 11, 2016

    @danbri Yes, there are many. Mostly museums, like The Met, have all that data and include it online sometimes (with our without markup). Here's an example where you have an artMedium that is a cigarette pack...manufactured by Hassan Cigarettes way back in the day.

    http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/397122?sortBy=Relevance&amp;what=Baseball+cards&amp;ft=*&amp;pg=1&amp;rpp=20&amp;pos=21

    and Bakelite (a brand)
    http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/487125?sortBy=Relevance&amp;when=A.D.+1900-present&amp;what=Plastic&amp;ft=*&amp;pg=1&amp;rpp=20&amp;pos=35
    and Lurex (a brand of metallic yarn)
    http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/481111?sortBy=Relevance&amp;when=A.D.+1900-present&amp;what=Plastic&amp;ft=*&amp;pg=1&amp;rpp=20&amp;pos=25

    Watches are another. Specifically Pocket Watches that were etched or inscribed by an artist, where some museums have the artMedium as the watch manufacturer and the artist name who designed or inscribed the scene on the back of the watch.

    And the other way around, but not directly using artMedium but instead MTE...Herman Miller furniture is an MTE with SFMOMA in their database (but not shown in web schema), in that they class some of the furniture as both Art and Furniture.

    thadguidry commented Aug 11, 2016

    @danbri Yes, there are many. Mostly museums, like The Met, have all that data and include it online sometimes (with our without markup). Here's an example where you have an artMedium that is a cigarette pack...manufactured by Hassan Cigarettes way back in the day.

    http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/397122?sortBy=Relevance&amp;what=Baseball+cards&amp;ft=*&amp;pg=1&amp;rpp=20&amp;pos=21

    and Bakelite (a brand)
    http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/487125?sortBy=Relevance&amp;when=A.D.+1900-present&amp;what=Plastic&amp;ft=*&amp;pg=1&amp;rpp=20&amp;pos=35
    and Lurex (a brand of metallic yarn)
    http://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/481111?sortBy=Relevance&amp;when=A.D.+1900-present&amp;what=Plastic&amp;ft=*&amp;pg=1&amp;rpp=20&amp;pos=25

    Watches are another. Specifically Pocket Watches that were etched or inscribed by an artist, where some museums have the artMedium as the watch manufacturer and the artist name who designed or inscribed the scene on the back of the watch.

    And the other way around, but not directly using artMedium but instead MTE...Herman Miller furniture is an MTE with SFMOMA in their database (but not shown in web schema), in that they class some of the furniture as both Art and Furniture.

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    lazaruscorporation Aug 11, 2016

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    @thadguidry I guess once you're out of the realm of fine art and into collectables then maybe brand is more important.

    In the 1st Met Museum link the artMedium is not a cigarette pack (according to the Met site) but rather "Commercial lithographs with half-tone photograph". The artworkSurface (not listed on the page) would probably be "cardstock". It's the Publisher (already a property of CreativeWork and VisualArtwork) that is Hassan Cigarettes.

    However I can't dispute the fact that 2 of the materials in the other 2 links - Bakelite and Lurex - are brand names of materials.

    So if you're convinced that we should extend the range of possible values of "artMedium" and "artSurface" to include Product in addition to Text and URL then I certainly won't object.

    However I'd suggest that we define the expected types in the proposed superproperty "material" (material would therefore expect Text, URL, or Product), and these expected types will then automatically be inherited by its child properties of "artMedium" and "artSurface".

    One last question (playing Devil's Advocate) - perhaps material/artMedium should have an expected type that is wider than "Product" - maybe "Thing" (which would allow the use of a Product, since Product is the child of Thing).

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    lazaruscorporation commented Aug 11, 2016

    @thadguidry I guess once you're out of the realm of fine art and into collectables then maybe brand is more important.

    In the 1st Met Museum link the artMedium is not a cigarette pack (according to the Met site) but rather "Commercial lithographs with half-tone photograph". The artworkSurface (not listed on the page) would probably be "cardstock". It's the Publisher (already a property of CreativeWork and VisualArtwork) that is Hassan Cigarettes.

    However I can't dispute the fact that 2 of the materials in the other 2 links - Bakelite and Lurex - are brand names of materials.

    So if you're convinced that we should extend the range of possible values of "artMedium" and "artSurface" to include Product in addition to Text and URL then I certainly won't object.

    However I'd suggest that we define the expected types in the proposed superproperty "material" (material would therefore expect Text, URL, or Product), and these expected types will then automatically be inherited by its child properties of "artMedium" and "artSurface".

    One last question (playing Devil's Advocate) - perhaps material/artMedium should have an expected type that is wider than "Product" - maybe "Thing" (which would allow the use of a Product, since Product is the child of Thing).

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    Yup makes sense to do it at the 'material' level.

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    danbri commented Aug 11, 2016

    Yup makes sense to do it at the 'material' level.

    danbri added a commit that referenced this issue Aug 12, 2016

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    Ok, Product added as a value for "material": http://webschemas.org/material

    I think we're done, although an example would be welcome.

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    danbri commented Aug 12, 2016

    Ok, Product added as a value for "material": http://webschemas.org/material

    I think we're done, although an example would be welcome.

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    thadguidry Aug 12, 2016

    @danbri And to that end, we really don't explain usage of sub properties or super properties.... so #1301

    @danbri And to that end, we really don't explain usage of sub properties or super properties.... so #1301

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    nicolastorzec Aug 15, 2016

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    No issue with restoring "material" and its sub properties.

    In addition, I'm with @vholland regarding "isInspiredBy": i.e. beyond isBasedOn, adding something like "isInspiredBy" would be interesting and useful to explicitly link related entities together.

    Initial use case:

    • Goal: Capture that artists and creative works can be inspired by other artists and works
    • Domain: Person, PerformingGroup, CreativeWork
    • Range: Person, PerformingGroup, CreativeWork

    Expanded use case:

    • Domain/Range could be expanded to any artifact and most things thing
    • E.g. products inspired by another products, buildings inspired by sculptures or land formations...
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    nicolastorzec commented Aug 15, 2016

    No issue with restoring "material" and its sub properties.

    In addition, I'm with @vholland regarding "isInspiredBy": i.e. beyond isBasedOn, adding something like "isInspiredBy" would be interesting and useful to explicitly link related entities together.

    Initial use case:

    • Goal: Capture that artists and creative works can be inspired by other artists and works
    • Domain: Person, PerformingGroup, CreativeWork
    • Range: Person, PerformingGroup, CreativeWork

    Expanded use case:

    • Domain/Range could be expanded to any artifact and most things thing
    • E.g. products inspired by another products, buildings inspired by sculptures or land formations...
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