New types for stories

[vickitardif]

Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, etc all have the concept of "stories". With the maturation of AMP publishing tools, web sites are also publishing "stories" which blend media across a single page. Examples include:

• National Geographic
• USA Today

Schema.org does not have a type that captures this idea. It would be good to have a type under CreativeWork that covers these.

I propose adding 2 new types:

SocialMediaStory: A story published on a social media platform like Facebook or Instagram.
WebStory: A story published on the web.

Alternatively, these could be joined under one type, but I don't have a good name for that.

[rvguha]

We can come up with a name, I am sure. I am not sure we want to distinguish between stories based on where they are published. What if a story first gets published on a social media platform and is then reproduced on a website? guha

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On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 8:37 AM Vicki Tardif ***@***.***> wrote: Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, etc all have the concept of "stories". With the maturation of AMP publishing tools, web sites are also publishing "stories" which blend media across a single page. Examples include: - National Geographic <https://www.nationalgeographic.com/amp-stories/travel/best-trips-2020/?sf227538199=1> - USA Today <https://www.usatoday.com/amp-stories/hawaii-volcano-big-island-update-one-year-later/> Schema.org does not have a type that captures this idea. It would be good to have a type under CreativeWork that covers these. I propose adding 2 new types: SocialMediaStory: A story published on a social media platform like Facebook or Instagram. WebStory: A story published on the web. Alternatively, these could be joined under one type, but I don't have a good name for that. — You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/2466?email_source=notifications&email_token=ABICKCUJFNKKZUYT7UFO27LRCVZMHA5CNFSM4KUWME22YY3PNVWWK3TUL52HS4DFUVEXG43VMWVGG33NNVSW45C7NFSM4INKJLLQ>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABICKCS7QYAMGCK4AZQAT6LRCVZMHANCNFSM4KUWME2Q> .

[vickitardif]

Good point. I was thinking that social media often has different properties than the web, but we can add subtypes or specialized properties later if the need arises.

[RichardWallis]

My initial reaction is that they are examples of Article "An article, such as a news article or piece of investigative report. Newspapers and magazines have articles of many different types and this is intended to cover them all."

Looking at the National Geographic example, it does seem to stretch that definition somewhat, into the realms of a multimedia-article but I think the spirit of article is still visible.

Maybe we are looking at an addition to the list of Article subtypes.

[Aaranged]

My initial reaction is that they are examples of Article

While a "story" may require the use of many properties that exist in Article (or, more likely, in CreativeWork), I think this story thing is more analogous to ItemList than Article. This because a "story" is inherently composed of component parts. Using AMP as an example, the "basic ingredients that go into an AMP story are individual pages[1]. These pages, in turn, are composed of individual layers that contain basic HTML and AMP elements." https://amp.dev/documentation/guides-and-tutorials/start/visual_story/parts_of_story/ Is this sense a "story" is less an article *sub*-type than an article *super*-type. [1] Used because this is what AMP calls them (the component name is "amp-story-page"). Terrible nomenclature that should not be replicated in schema.org, excepting circumstances where "page" is used unambiguously to mean a physical page (e.g. Book.numberOfPages) or something that is specifically and singularly a "web page".

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On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 9:26 AM Richard Wallis ***@***.***> wrote: My initial reaction is that they are examples of Article "*An article, such as a news article or piece of investigative report. Newspapers and magazines have articles of many different types and this is intended to cover them all.*" Looking at the National Geographic example, it does seem to stretch that definition somewhat, into the realms of a multimedia-article but I think the spirit of article is still visible. Maybe we are looking at an addition to the list of Article subtypes <https://schema.org/Article#subtypes>. — You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/2466?email_source=notifications&email_token=AAH4MARZXJFOQL6VVNN34MDRCV7FBA5CNFSM4KUWME22YY3PNVWWK3TUL52HS4DFVREXG43VMVBW63LNMVXHJKTDN5WW2ZLOORPWSZGOELV3YNA#issuecomment-585874484>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAH4MAWI24J4BBG5K7SIEJLRCV7FBANCNFSM4KUWME2Q> .

[RichardWallis]

Couple of thoughts...

Firstly with the use of isPartOf & hasPart 'traditional' Articles can often consist of several component parts, text, images, mediaOjects etc. However I still think what we are discussing here still stretches that concept somewhat.

The amp.dev link that @Aaranged provided demonstrates a need for what I would describe as a composite-CreativeWork. The afore mentioned isPartOf & hasPart are useful in describing the contents of and nesting CreativeWork elements. Although not impossible, the description of ordered contents and nesting has always been a cumbersome task, and would need improvement in tis context.

It is probably right to concentrate the addressing of such capabilities at the CreativeWork level to make these efforts as broadly useful as possible, using this specific use case to define a specific type and test the design.

Secondly, naming. "Story" has specific meaning in the examples referenced, but also can have broader generic meaning. We already have a ShortStory type. So I think we need to consider naming carefully.

There is also something that could be considered around a possible Page type, useful in the description of physical pages and (as a super-type) for WebPage, WebStoryPage, etc.

[rvguha]

We can have centi-threads on the various meanings of stories. Lets just make it a subclass of CreativeWork and take it from there. guha On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 1:46 PM Aaron Bradley <notifications@github.com> wrote:

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> My initial reaction is that they are examples of Article While a "story" may require the use of many properties that exist in Article (or, more likely, in CreativeWork), I think this story thing is more analogous to ItemList than Article. This because a "story" is inherently composed of component parts. Using AMP as an example, the "basic ingredients that go into an AMP story are individual pages[1]. These pages, in turn, are composed of individual layers that contain basic HTML and AMP elements." https://amp.dev/documentation/guides-and-tutorials/start/visual_story/parts_of_story/ Is this sense a "story" is less an article *sub*-type than an article *super*-type. [1] Used because this is what AMP calls them (the component name is "amp-story-page"). Terrible nomenclature that should not be replicated in schema.org, excepting circumstances where "page" is used unambiguously to mean a physical page (e.g. Book.numberOfPages) or something that is specifically and singularly a "web page". On Thu, Feb 13, 2020 at 9:26 AM Richard Wallis ***@***.***> wrote: > My initial reaction is that they are examples of Article "*An article, > such as a news article or piece of investigative report. Newspapers and > magazines have articles of many different types and this is intended to > cover them all.*" > > Looking at the National Geographic example, it does seem to stretch that > definition somewhat, into the realms of a multimedia-article but I think > the spirit of article is still visible. > > Maybe we are looking at an addition to the list of Article subtypes > <https://schema.org/Article#subtypes>. > > — > You are receiving this because you are subscribed to this thread. > Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub > < https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/2466?email_source=notifications&email_token=AAH4MARZXJFOQL6VVNN34MDRCV7FBA5CNFSM4KUWME22YY3PNVWWK3TUL52HS4DFVREXG43VMVBW63LNMVXHJKTDN5WW2ZLOORPWSZGOELV3YNA#issuecomment-585874484 >, > or unsubscribe > < https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AAH4MAWI24J4BBG5K7SIEJLRCV7FBANCNFSM4KUWME2Q > > . > — You are receiving this because you commented. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/2466?email_source=notifications&email_token=ABICKCSYSZQUEHNTEQLDUX3RCW5TZA5CNFSM4KUWME22YY3PNVWWK3TUL52HS4DFVREXG43VMVBW63LNMVXHJKTDN5WW2ZLOORPWSZGOELWXLDQ#issuecomment-585987470>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABICKCWWGEMJBH6C235SSUTRCW5TZANCNFSM4KUWME2Q> .

[vickitardif]

To address some of the comments.

Like @RichardWallis, I considered Article or even ShortStory, but those tend to assume the contents are predominantly text and this concept is more about mixed media. It seems better to have a new type with properties for this idea.

I agree with @Aaranged that these are not "stories" in any traditional sense. Personally, I don't like the term, but AMP, Instagram, etc have all consolidated on it, so it seems easier to go with that then try to invent another term. I would like something that distinguishes these as stories in less traditional sense of the word, so went with WebStory.

I think at some point we (in schema.org and ontologists in general) will need to grapple with how media is changing and some of the artificial distinctions like PodcastSeries vs RadioSeries vs TVSeries are more about the technologies than the works themselves. But as @rvguha pointed out, we can argue those points for a long time and I am ultimately a pragmatist. I would like to give authors something before we take on redefining subclasses of CreativeWork.

[RichardWallis]

WebStory would be ok

[rvguha]

Why WebStory? Does it stop being a WebStory if I print it out?

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On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 11:45 AM Richard Wallis ***@***.***> wrote: WebStory would be ok — You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/2466?email_source=notifications&email_token=ABICKCSCY6RXIIGJT4E6KVLRC3YHBA5CNFSM4KUWME22YY3PNVWWK3TUL52HS4DFVREXG43VMVBW63LNMVXHJKTDN5WW2ZLOORPWSZGOEL2HHFQ#issuecomment-586445718>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABICKCTLLHRHJSEKXEKWM63RC3YHBANCNFSM4KUWME2Q> .

[RichardWallis]

Yes Good question - does a printed out ImageObject become a photograph?

To accommodate an amp story, instagram story, etc. how about MultimediaStory?

Although ’ok’ WebStory feels a bit specific to a potentially narrow use case area.

[WeaverStever]

A couple of thoughts,

A blog is sometimes a story, except chronology is written in the reverse order of how one might want to read it. I've looked into presenting Blogger blogs in reverse chron order, it's not a trivial thing to do. Additionally, some blogpostings in a blog series might not be relevant to the "story."

Another interesting use might be where a researcher wants to cobble together a page full of otherwise unrelated snippets to create a new story -- a cross between a wiki article and a search result?

Finally, most social media pages implement lazy-loading, where the older content is not loaded until the reader scrolls down. Being able to document and permalink the post(s), without having to scroll through pages and pages of dynamic loading after the fact, could be useful. I.e. an embed post widget with associated structured data and an adjustable episode number.

[rvguha]

I have photos in Google photos that were never printed. Whether a set of pixels is a photograph is a function of how it was generated. guha

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On Fri, Feb 14, 2020 at 3:13 PM Richard Wallis ***@***.***> wrote: Yes Good question - does a printed out ImageObject become a photograph? To accommodate an amp story, instagram story, etc. how about MultimediaStory? Although ’ok’ WebStory feels a bit specific to a potentially narrow use case area. — You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/2466?email_source=notifications&email_token=ABICKCQ7KGKL7TUZB5HULO3RC4QQZA5CNFSM4KUWME22YY3PNVWWK3TUL52HS4DFVREXG43VMVBW63LNMVXHJKTDN5WW2ZLOORPWSZGOEL2YA7A#issuecomment-586514556>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABICKCQCDFWYI4VHZ4OYGWDRC4QQZANCNFSM4KUWME2Q> .

[vickitardif]

MultimediaStory works for me.

[rvguha]

What if there is no multi-media? The concept of a story is a very basic one. We should have a category for it and make it a subClass of CreativeWork guha

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On Mon, Feb 24, 2020 at 8:35 AM Vicki Tardif ***@***.***> wrote: MultimediaStory works for me. — You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <https://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/2466?email_source=notifications&email_token=ABICKCRCJXBCACJAWPQ5MMLREPZODA5CNFSM4KUWME22YY3PNVWWK3TUL52HS4DFVREXG43VMVBW63LNMVXHJKTDN5WW2ZLOORPWSZGOEMYSCHQ#issuecomment-590422302>, or unsubscribe <https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/ABICKCT7SQQQEAYREZT26A3REPZODANCNFSM4KUWME2Q> .

[philbarker]

Story is a very wide concept, and unless you want to include fairy stories, short stories (ShortStory), fictional tales in general and news stories (already covered by NewsArticle) it would help if the name stories from social media reflects that. All those examples can be on the web or multimedia, and arguably that's nothing to do with their fundamental nature as a fairy/short/news story.

So I preferred the original SocialMediaStory, but drop WebStory. By analogy to photographs, if it's generated through social media it stays a SocialMediaStory however it is reproduced. Likewise a ShortStory is a ShortStory whether it's told in print, on the web or orally.