Add ExhibitionEvent as a subtype of Event (was: add Exhibition as...) #445

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danbri opened this Issue Apr 23, 2015 · 63 comments

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@danbri
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danbri commented Apr 23, 2015

Consider adding schema.org/Exhibition as a subtype of Event. It would be for (typically long-running) museum (or gallery, edu etc.) exhibitions.

No special properties proposed at this point, but examples shojuld show use of 'about' to indicate its topic/coverage.

@danbri danbri added this to the 2015 Q2 milestone Apr 23, 2015
@danbri
Contributor
danbri commented Apr 23, 2015

see also #406

@portableant

👍 that would be very useful.

@danbri
Contributor
danbri commented Apr 23, 2015

See also Twitter conversation at https://twitter.com/danbri/status/591131319347843072

Excerpting,

  • Barry Norton / @BarryNorton: "think so, but guidance needing on modelling permanent collection, loaned objects, etc."
  • Mia Ridge @mia_out (gh: @mialondon): "definitely! There are some nuances (touring etc), ..." + discussion on outreach to relevant mailing lists.
@jottevanger

yes please.

@Jim-Salmons

Re @BarryNorton and @MiaLondon et al -- Whatever you do, Dan, PLEASE do it so as to be a #cidocCRM-compatible form.

Ontologists tend toward descriptive use of the #cidocCRM as a metaDATA standard when it is intended to be a metaMODEL supporting its use to prescribe elementary building blocks (model elements) of software architectures. Until there is wider recognition of the SIGNIFICANT leverage that metamodel-driven software design can do for the Digital Humanities, the #cidocCRM will be as woefully under-utilized as it is currently under-appreciated.

cidoccrm_classes_cartoon

Why do I believe this? I was a lead in a Smalltalk-based skunkworks in IBM's Object Technology Practice doing "executable business model" frameworks in the 1990s behind closed doors of corporate consulting. Our work was inspired by David Gelernter's "Mirror Worlds" and was based on "self-descriptive" Smalltalk images that were compliant to an actor/role metamodel that objectified Process (an OOP heresy at the time).

Following my horrific cancer battle and a chance to stick my finger in the eye of the Reaper and come back for some Bonus Rounds, I find myself as a Wolf Child in the Wonderland of Digital Humanities' "Golden Moment."

When we were trying to do EBMs (executable business models) at IBM, we trolled the various IBM Global Services consulting practices for viable IRRs -- each practice was required to create an Industry Reference Model, AKA a metamodel. These IRRs ran the gamut from worthless tripe to "Wow!? Pretty good!"

I most enjoyed "pair programming" with my first ontologist, we called him "Doug the Librarian" because he "just modeled" and didn't code. Basically, what we were looking for in partners to do metamodel-driven software development were three things:

  • Subject Matter Experts (especially if they were verbal, thinkers, and open to being 'pushed' to clarity)
  • Explicit Models -- Black box expertise (wetware only) can't be executable without first being rendered in some explicit form of communication (usually words and images)
  • Source 'Instances' of these Explicit Models -- The best way to surface hidden assumptions and contradictions is to look at the delta of models that purport to be instances of the same metamodel

THE DIGITAL HUMANITIES DOMAIN HAS EVERYTHING NEEDED TO DO METAMODEL-DRIVEN SOFTWARE DESIGN AND DEVELOPMENT IN THE EXTREME! :D

And the #cidocCRM is the BEST opportunity I've seen to date to move in this direction.

Along these lines, I am working on #cidocCRM microservice workflows based on a 'self-descriptive' metamodel subgraph design pattern for LAM-based social games (front-end clients) and #cidocCRM-compliant collections management and scholarly editing back-end.

cidoc-crm-emb-sorta

(BTW, a first step in this regard is to more rigorously express the #cidocCRM in pure-graph form to support vendor- and tech-neutral self-descriptive datastores.)

If anybody is interested in these ideas, please see: http://goo.gl/dpbhPs and http://goo.gl/gS2FJk, etc. at @FactMiners (www.FactMiners.org). This recent Medium.com article is the closest thing to a 'manifesto' on my applied research agenda: http://goo.gl/3Vb0lO.

In closing, I am an unaffiliated independent Citizen Scientist/Historian working from an Outsider POV. Inquiries to clarify ideas as well as explorations of opportunities to collaborate are most welcome @Jim_Salmons, @FactMiners, and @SoftalkApple

@Jim-Salmons

While my 'pitch' for metamodel-driven software design is in general response to Dan's question, I would note that Exhibition as kind of Event is a perfect example of the "two-faces" of #cidocCRM Temporal Entities; 1) as descriptive elements -- time-boxing the 'live' event for documentation purposes, while 2) Exhibitions implemented/supplemented by software systems based on such metamodel standards are by nature self-descriptive and thereby can be "self-publishing" in terms of a #LOD World.

@anarchivist

cc @danbri, @mialondon, and @barrynorton. I'm interested in this from the perspective of web exhibits. I realize that they are more likely in some senses a schema:WebSite, but I'm thinking of cases where the web exhibit may be time-bound.

@danbri
Contributor
danbri commented Apr 29, 2015

re "#cidocCRM-compatible form." are there any public sites with exhibition event descriptions who have (somehow) used CIDOC CRM for this? There's often a certain amount of "dumbing down" when rich info gets used to generate Web pages, I'm not sure how much CRM shows up in public content...

@BarryNorton

Because we don't include exhibition records at the British Museum LOD site
most objects that 'were present at' an exhibition are so related because
they were made for that exhibition (hence needed the named event in order
to be catalogued), e.g.:

SELECT DISTINCT ?object
{?object crm:P12i_was_present_at
http://collection.britishmuseum.org/id/event/-Queen-of-Sheba:-Treasures-from-ancient-Yemen-exhibition}

(To run:
http://collection.britishmuseum.org/sparql?query=SELECT+DISTINCT+%3Fobject%0D%0A%7B%3Fobject+crm%3AP12i_was_present_at+%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fcollection.britishmuseum.org%2Fid%2Fevent%2F-Queen-of-Sheba%3A-Treasures-from-ancient-Yemen-exhibition%3E%7D%0D%0A&_implicit=false&implicit=true&_equivalent=false&_form=%2Fsparql

Sorry - markdown and SPARQL don't play well)

There are also some historical exhibitions that are useful for cataloguing,
e.g.:
http://collection.britishmuseum.org/id/event/International-Postage-Stamp-Exhibition-Stockholm-1974

Where we actually have objects belonging to an exhibition, sometimes things
are broken:
http://collection.britishmuseum.org/resource?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcollection.britishmuseum.org%2Fid%2Fexhibition%2FFantastic-Creatures&role=object
(You'll see there are no forward relations, not even the typing as a CRM
event, which looks broken)

There are some improvements to be made, clearly, but the impetus to
actually openly make available records of exhibition contents could only be
a good thing...

Barry

On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 6:31 PM, Dan Brickley notifications@github.com
wrote:

re "#cidocCRM-compatible form." are there any public sites with exhibition
event descriptions who have (somehow) used CIDOC CRM for this? There's
often a certain amount of "dumbing down" when rich info gets used to
generate Web pages, I'm not sure how much CRM shows up in public content...


Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub
#445 (comment).

@frankieroberto

Hello. I developed the Exhibition schema for Freebase: http://www.freebase.com/m/046chf6 (and inputted a few hundred Exhibitions into Freebase).

My suggestion would be that the subtype of schema.org/Event should be called schema.org/ExhibitionEvent, both for consistency with TheaterEvent, DanceEvent, etc, and to allow schema.org/Exhibition to be a potential subtype of CreativeWork instead – which would allow for separation between an exhibition as a conceptual curation of things (which could be permanent, or online-only) and an exhibition event as a visitable thing with start and end dates. This matters because lots of exhibitions travel to multiple venues.

@danbri
Contributor
danbri commented May 1, 2015

So if we had ExhibitionEvent and Exhibition (a CreativeWork, long term thing or short term thing...), plus a relationship linking them analogous to the way workPerformed is used, would that be about right? Useful? Easy to get rough consensus on?

(We have workPresented queued up for the next release anyway...)

@anarchivist

👍 from me.

@danbri
Contributor
danbri commented May 1, 2015

If an Exhibition tours, does it tend to have its own Web site that tells the whole story of where it is when?

What are the boundaries here, in terms of scope creep? We are talking mostly so far about museums and similar, are there nearby similar 'exhibitions'? Eg car shows or whatever, who might try to use the same markup...

@BarryNorton

Certainly not always, Dan. One of my favourite of our exhibitions last year
was the Vikings one, where the ship, and other artefacts, came
from National Museum of Denmark and then went to the Staatliche Museen zu
Berlin. I'm not aware of any core site (though someone at Google might know
better than I ;) )

Barry

On Fri, May 1, 2015 at 8:31 PM, Dan Brickley notifications@github.com
wrote:

If an Exhibition tours, does it tend to have its own Web site that tells
the whole story of where it is when?

What are the boundaries here, in terms of scope creep? We are talking
mostly so far about museums and similar, are there nearby similar
'exhibitions'? Eg car shows or whatever, who might try to use the same
markup...


Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub
#445 (comment).

@mialondon

@danbri some organisations have commercial arms that might have a site for a touring exhibition aimed at selling it to other venues, but that would count as an Exhibition rather than an ExhibitionEvent. I assume most museums would use ExhibitionEvent in their public what's on listings or exhibition microsite (if their CMSs can manage it).

Trade shows have 'exhibitors' so I guess might also use ExhibitionEvent.

@danbri
Contributor
danbri commented May 1, 2015

Thanks, @mialondon, @BarryNorton, @anarchivist

/cc @mfhepp who might have encountered more e-commerce -oriented exhibition markup on his travels

@Jim-Salmons

Okay, @danbri, @BarryNorton, @anarchivist, and @mialondon

This is another "note from the fly on the wall" thinking about future implications more than the nitty-gritty of the decision at hand... so this is parenthetical but hopefully a useful perspective

I believe the #cidocCRMdev comments I contributed earlier are relevant to this most recent thread inquiring about the Exhibition as a Real-Time event. I would characterize the Exhibition's website as its "Mirror World" alt or proxy. And as @BarryNorton suggests, in addition to the question of web presence, there are all manner of E10 Transfer of Custody activities, etc. that transpire as an Exhibition "happens" as an E2 Temporal Entity in Museum World.

20140823_051646000_ios

By the #cidocCRMdev hashtag I mean #cidocCRM-compliant metamodel-driven software design and development. Under such an approach, we can do #cidocCRM microservice composition by specifying executable model instances as domain-specific extensions the #cidocCRM. By being "self-descriptive" -- using a metamodel subgraph or comparable design pattern -- writing a "new set of applications" is reduced to thoughtful composition of its executable model, not writing one-off applications.

So to the Point of this discussion, there are obvious advantages in building cultural artifact preservation, curation, and collection management systems that are compliant with the #cidocCRM ISO Standard. But why stop there?

We really start to get #cidocCRMdev leverage when such self-descriptive/self-documenting frameworks are used to build other "Social Machines" in Museum World -- a #cidocCRM-compliant microservice system to implement an Exhibition, for example. In this sense an Exhibition is seamlessly interwoven, not just into the overall system of the Exhibiton's location-host, but each participating collaborators' systems are equally seamlessly networked for the transient interplay of the Exhibition. The obvious example being the seamless, self-documenting flow among the participating Cultural Institutions' various E21 Persons as E39 Actors in E10 Transfers of Custody activities, etc.

In this way, a Museum World Exhibition is not dissimilar to a network of persistent creative participants who come together in Hollywood via a temporary production company to make a movie then go their separate ways. Sustainable, adaptable Museums of the Future will certainly need the creative freedom and expressive flexibility of such composable, dynamic systems.

I believe the #cidocCRM can provide significant guidance in creating the web-friendly microservice systems essential to realizing the Museums of the Future.

Further, once we realize that Exhibitions end in the Museum World but keep on going in Digital Museum World, it becomes all the more important to build such systems in a manner that are easily composed, shared, and when the time comes either handed off to others or "turned loose" into the wild of Digital Museum World.

This is what I see when I look at the as-yet-realized potential of the #cidocCRM. That E2 Temporal Entity branch is ripe for exploitation via a metamodel-driven design strategy.

So that's my "iron in this fire" -- whatever Schema.org decides on this and similar pragmatic decision of an ontological nature, the closer whatever you decide to do is to #cidocCRM-compliance, the better the chances that developers like me will be able to use the #cidocCRM effectively. Thank for you considering this input.

cidoc-crm-class-hierarchy

@frankieroberto

@danbri "So if we had ExhibitionEvent and Exhibition [..] plus a relationship linking them analogous to the way workPerformed is used, would that be about right?" – sounds about right to me. An Exhibition may have multiple ExhibitionEvents if it tours, or none if it's permanent (or perhaps online-only).

In terms of boundaries, I'd be fairly relaxed about car shows, trade shows, art & craft fairs, etc, all using the schema, although there's probably some overlap with VisualArtEvent and BusinessEvent. The core common meaning to 'exhibition' is probably something like 'things to look at', but there may often be a commerce element too (the original exhibitions certainly did).

In terms of websites, most travelling exhibitions seem to get a new website for every location they tour to (partly down to translation & localisation, partly because of the way local marketing is managed). However some might have a website for overall exhibition, with dates of the cities / locations it's toured to, which could be marked up with ExhibitionEvent, e.g. Digital Revolution.

There may also be examples of exhibitions which are open on non-consecutive days (e.g. for a few weekends), and so which might need to use separate ExhibitionEvents for each weekend opening.

@frankieroberto

@danbri PS +1 on using workPresented to connection an ExhibitionEvent with an Exhibition.

@frankieroberto

PPS #406 makes a good argument for not adding to the list of sub-classes of Event (especially if not adding any properties).

@danbri
Contributor
danbri commented May 4, 2015

What do you all think about adding in a 'curator' property while we're at it, linking an Exhibition or ExhibitionEvent to a Person (or Organization too)? Quick-easy-and-useful vs giant-can-of-worms?

@mialondon

@danbri IMO, it's a can of worms, not least because it's only one of many relevant roles (e.g. 3D, 2D, digital exhibition designers etc), it can be a team rather than an individual and to generalise very broadly it works differently for history and art museums. Generic 'related people' or organisations would be useful but Event presumably already has something FOAFy like that.

@Dataliberate
Contributor

+1

~Richard

On 4 May 2015, at 15:38, Dan Brickley <notifications@github.commailto:notifications@github.com> wrote:

What do you all think about adding in a 'curator' property while we're at it, linking an Exhibition or ExhibitionEvent to a Person (or Organization too)? Quick-easy-and-useful vs giant-can-of-worms?

Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHubhttps://github.com/schemaorg/schemaorg/issues/445#issuecomment-98732904.

@frankieroberto

@danbri I think a curator property is reasonable, even if it applies more to some exhibitions than others. It might make sense for the expected type to be Person or Organization to address @mialondon's point about teams (although I'm not sure if this would be more useful than having multiple individual curator credits).

Other properties that might be worth re-using are productionCompany and sponsor.

@VladimirAlexiev

Of you use workPresented for ExhibitionEvent->Exhibition, how would you model the museum objects that are exhibited?

In CRM, ExhibitionEvent will be a subclass of Event, Exhibition a subclass of Collection (specially assembled for the event), and then the museum objects would be partOf the Exhibition collection. But I don't know if Schema supports such generic partOf relations, and I feel uneasy making them partOf if we don't also rigorously model the temporary nature of this parthood. As Barry wrote, in the BM CRM data we took the easy way and said exhibition is an Event with appropriate p2_has_type, and the objects were simply p12_present_at it.

From the complications shown above (eg by Mia), it seems to me we need some real data to get this right.

We should also model virtual (web) exhibitions, that's a whole software genre in itself (eg Omeka). Cheers!

@mialondon

I've just seen that the Southbank Centre have an 'Event Open Data Model' that might be useful (via http://digital.southbankcentre.co.uk/how-to-build-an-open-website-part-2/)

@frankieroberto

@mialondon looks like they're re-using the types and properties from schema.org: https://github.com/Southbank-Centre/OpenEvent – no Exhibition type, but they're using nested Events to model, say, a talk as part of a Festival.

There seems to be some ambiguity over whether, say, a 6-week-long run of a play or a 6-week-long exhibition, should be modelled using an Event (with subEvents for each performance / day of opening), or as a CreativeWork with the events associated using the workPerformed property.

@danbri danbri added a commit that referenced this issue Sep 11, 2015
@danbri danbri First cut at ExhibitionEvent 259cf0a
@danbri
Contributor
danbri commented Sep 11, 2015
@frankieroberto

@danbri great! What's the best way to contribute? I don't think I can edit that branch directly. Fork and Pull Request to the branch? Or just comments here?

@danbri danbri pushed a commit that referenced this issue Oct 1, 2015
Dan Brickley Fix to #445 + documentation in release. Added ExhibitionEvent and sup…
…porting workFeatured property.

Declared workFeatured a superproperty of workPerformed, workPresented.
7f07108
@danbri
Contributor
danbri commented Oct 1, 2015

Comments here are good. I have merged this into the upcoming release branch (aka sdo-phobos). I think 6 months of discussion was plenty - there's broad consensus that this is a good thing to do.

http://sdo-phobos.appspot.com/ExhibitionEvent

This change also adds a new property 'workFeatured' which is a super-property for the existing (but often inapplicable here) workPerformed and workPresented properties.

/cc @tilid @pmika @ajax-als @chaals @vholland @shankarnat @tmarshbing @rvguha

We could do with a simple example - gratefully received here.

@vholland
Contributor
vholland commented Oct 1, 2015

+1

@BarryNorton

Happy to work up an example based on the original British Museum 'History of the World in 100 Objects' exhibition from 2010.

(We already have individual object links to the BBC Radio programmes in RDF at collection.britishmuseum.org)

@danbri
Contributor
danbri commented Oct 1, 2015

Yes please! We're trying to wrap things up by end of this week for a release, if that isn't too soon for you.

@frankieroberto

@danbri I think it's possibly a bit unclear at the moment what the workFeatured property should refer to – i.e. in the case of an art exhibition, should it refer to the individual art works, or to a single (future) Exhibition type? The former is conceptually simpler, easier to author, and probably the most appropriate for the majority of exhibitions which are a one-off event, but the latter removes duplication in the case of exhibitions which travel to multiple venues, and allows all the properties of CreativeWork to be used to describe the exhibition.

To take an example from another type of Event, the example for http://sdo-phobos.appspot.com/TheaterEvent seems to point towards a CreativeWork representing the written play of 'Julius Caesar' (which has the creator as Shakespeare) rather than a 'theater production' type of creative work representing the production of Julius Caesar, which might have the director as the creator (and actor properties for the cast).

For both TheaterEvent and ExhibitionEvent, it's also unclear as to whether authors should mark up a single event for a whole run (spanning multiple days), or individual events for each performance / opening day?

@danbri
Contributor
danbri commented Oct 7, 2015

@frankieroberto at this point the draft says

"A work featured in some event, e.g. exhibited in an ExhibitionEvent. Specific subproperties are available for workPerformed (e.g. a play), or a workPresented (a Movie at a ScreeningEvent)."

...which leaves a lot of options open. I think this is an appropriately flexible start since different publishers will have access to different levels of detail. Additional information attached to the CreativeWork might help further, e.g. subtypes like http://schema.org/Painting http://schema.org/Book etc are available, as well as the hasPart / isPartOf properties for hierarchical structure.

You're right that further clarifications and indicative examples could be helpful. There are also discussions around event series that are relevant - see #447 . I hope we can continue to refine things in future releases and that there is nothing in the drafted version that would block future progress or cause too much confusion amongst publishers.

@frankieroberto

@danbri so, if we were to add a future Exhibition type as a sub-type of CreativeWork, then we’re saying it would be permissible for the workPresented property of ExhibitionEvent to either refer to an Exhibition or, say, a Painting? I guess that does allow for maximum flexibility, at the possible expense of future confusion (e.g. if parsers start expecting workPresented to be a list of artworks / exhibits, rather than a single exhibition which itself contains the list of artworks / exhibits).

Any thoughts on whether to advise people (in either the description or examples) to use a single event type for the entire run of an exhibition / theatre performance / movie run or one for each day open / performance / screening? That's an area where I think clear guidance would be preferable from keeping it complete open or unspecified.

@frankieroberto

@danbri PS can you retitle this issue to Add ExhibitionEvent as a subtype of Event? Then I'll add a new issue for addingExhibitionas a subtype ofCreativeWork`.

@danbri danbri changed the title from Add Exhibition as a subtype of Event to Add ExhibitionEvent as a subtype of Event (was: add Exhibition as...) Oct 7, 2015
@frankieroberto

Here's a a quick marked-up example from the V&A What’s On page (which is already using schema.org microdata:

<div itemscope="" itemtype="http://schema.org/ExhibitionEvent">
  <meta itemprop="location" content="Victoria and Albert Museum">
  <meta itemprop="inLanguage" content="en">
  <h2><a itemprop="url" href="http://www.vam.ac.uk/whatson/event/5150/shoes-pleasure-and-pain-696789408/">
    <span itemprop="name">Shoes: Pleasure and Pain</span>
  </a></h2>
  <p><time class="nowrap" itemprop="startDate" datetime="2015-06-13">Sat 13 June 2015</time>–<time itemprop="endDate" datetime="2016-01-31">Sun 31 January 2016</time></p>
    <p itemprop="description">Explore the transformative power of footwear from around the world as we present over 200 pairs of the most extreme shoes from the last 2000 years. </p>
  <a itemprop="offers" href="http://www.vam.ac.uk/whatson/event/5150/date/20151007/">Book tickets</a>
</div>
@mfhepp
Contributor
mfhepp commented Oct 7, 2015

Please also include #838.

@frankieroberto

@danbri is that marked-up example helpful at all?

@rbailly
rbailly commented Oct 29, 2015

Hello, I suggest to add something like "eventSubject" if its not too broad. Could be a thematic such as pointillism, or a known person such as Marc Chagall. Would be very useful I guess.

@danbri danbri referenced this issue Oct 29, 2015
Closed

Meta bug for sdo-phobos release (as v2.2) #827

5 of 5 tasks complete
@ostephens

@rbailly think http://schema.org/about should be used for the purpose of describing what the event is about?

@danbri
Contributor
danbri commented Oct 29, 2015

Yes, 'about' is the best fit here. It might help (but not really essential) if we were to say more explicitly that it also expects URL values.

@rbailly
rbailly commented Oct 29, 2015

Thanks, I agree. 'about' is a property of 'CreativeWork'. So I guess this is related to #838 ?

@RichardWallis RichardWallis added a commit that referenced this issue Nov 5, 2015
@RichardWallis RichardWallis Create sdo-exhibitionevent-examples.txt
From example by @frankieroberto
From issue #445
16d2266
@danbri
Contributor
danbri commented Nov 6, 2015

Added ExhibitionEvent + example in http://schema.org/docs/releases.html#v2.2 - thanks all. There's a lot of discussion here, and we can continue chatting, but I'll close out the issue since we've addressed the main concern.

@danbri danbri closed this Nov 6, 2015
@rtroncy
rtroncy commented Dec 2, 2015

Hi @danbri ... to come back to the question of @rbailly: how can one specify what an ExhibitionEvent is about in the current version of schema.org?

The issue #838 suggests that an ExhibitionEvent could become a CreativeWork which will enable to apply the about property. But without a resolution of this issue, how one is supposed to do now?

@danbri
Contributor
danbri commented Dec 3, 2015

As also in #838: How about we just extend 'about', 'isFamilyFriendly', 'genre' to be applicable to Events?

@frankieroberto

@danbri @rtroncy this is an interesting question. I originally proposed that there should be a separate Exhibition type as a subtype of CreativeWork, which would allow you to specify the about, isFamilyFriendly, genre etc on that, and then connect the Exhibition with ExhibitionEvent via a workPresented (or similar property).

This has the advantage that it works the same way as ScreeningEvent and Movie (or BroadcastEvent and TVEpisode) - i.e. the event with its timing/pricing/location properties is separated from the 'work' with its genre/subject/etc properties. It also makes sense where the work is typically presented/performed at lots of different events.

However there are also lots of one-off events where, in natural language at least, the event and the work are conflated together – e.g. a special exhibition at a museum, or a one-night-only play.

The question for those is whether it's better to adopt some of the CreativeWork properties (like genre, subject, etc) for Events OR to encourage people to use multi-typed entities OR to have two separate entities and link them together.

As a separate, but related, issue – it's currently ambiguous over whether something like a two-week event open Mon-Sat should be encoded as a single event with a startDate and endDate (but the opening times and middle Sunday closure left unspecified) OR as a separate event for each individual day (with startDate and endDate as full date-times). (If the latter, then there's more of a need for a standalone 'work' which each event can link to).

@rtroncy
rtroncy commented Dec 5, 2015

I like the pattern of distinguishing the CreativeWork from the Event with a property that links them together such as workPresented but I also acknowledge that there are many cases where those two are conflated and that you would like to directly say what an Event is about. I don't think the multi-typed entities will be something that we recommend in this case since there are just a very little number of properties that we would like to pass on the Event.

Regarding the separate but related issue of repetitive event, there is already the outstanding issue #240 and the associated issue #447 where the EventSeries type has been proposed.

@danbri any chance to have those issues resolved for the sdo-deimos release?

@danbri
Contributor
danbri commented Dec 5, 2015

Event series are well worth some attention. Do you have a feeling how far we are from consensus? (I guess we should move into #240 for this part...). I believe Event series are also quite relevant to learning-oriented course descriptions (see recent discussion) .../cc @philbarker @vholland

@frankieroberto

@danbri @rtroncy specifically in relation to ExhibitionEvent, would you say that a 3 month exhibition open daily (except Sundays) is an EventSeries, or just a single event with more specific opening criteria than can currently be expressed? I'd argue the latter.

One option may to simply add an hoursAvailable property to Event which takes an OpeningHoursSpecification as a value, as is currently used for Service?

On the other issue – perhaps it's worth re-considering adding Exhibition as a sub-type of CreativeWork, which could then be linked to ExhibitionEvents in cases where an exhibition travels to multiple venues?

@rtroncy
rtroncy commented Dec 15, 2015

I would also model a 3 month exhibition as a (single) Event which could indeed have a hoursAvailable property. EventSeries, for me, correspond to a series of performances (e.g. dates of concert of an artist on tour, play in theater where generally a troupe is performing almost every evening for a month or two, etc.), but I admit that the distinction is subtle.

@frankieroberto

@rtroncy agreed – I guess the [subtle] distinction is that whereas for a theatre performance / concert you'll be there at the start and stay to the end (of the individual performance), for an exhibition you can drop in at any time during its run whilst it's open, and stay as long as you like.

I've added the suggestion to adopt hoursAvailable for Event at #932.

@thhap
thhap commented Jan 11, 2016

For itemtype ExhibitionEvent are available 'performer' and 'organizer'.
'performer' seems very much to be stage related, being part of a upper level 'artist'.
I would like to suggest itemprop 'artist' as a more general itemprop.
It is used as term in exhibition information of fine art museums, galleries worldwide for 100 of 1000 of exhibitions. It could be a painter, sculpture, video artist etc.
Furthermore I would like to suggest itemprop 'curator'. It is a standard term for the person who organizes an exhibition, selects the artists, the artwork, exhibition layout etc. The term is as well used in every museum or gallery exhibition worldwide.
We at artist-info.com locally already implemented successfully the standard ExhibitionEvent details but would like to add with itemprop 'artist' and 'curator' additional information for ExhibitionEvent.
http://screencast.com/t/9BdCLp1p0R

@vholland
Contributor

+1 for "curator" for ExhibitionEvent.

I am ambivalent on "artist" vs overloading "performer".

@thhap
thhap commented Jan 11, 2016

'performer' might be more related to a personal action by a living person: A singer, an actor, a musician, a commedian. However, a 'performer' must not necessarily be an 'artist'.
An 'Exhibition' might be something rather static, showing pysical items, being as well an 'Event', meaning go there now and look, listen etc..
Bravo for combining them to ExhibitionEvent!
Exhibited physical items are quite often related to a person, author etc., e.g. a 'maker' (craftsman), or an 'artist' (painter, etc., living or already passed away, e.g. Picasso).
May be having all three itemprops would be a good idea: 'performer', 'maker', 'artist'.

@Dataliberate
Contributor

+1 for curator, artist, performer. Would prefer to extend range of 'creator' instead of using maker.

~Richard

On 11 Jan 2016, at 22:52, Thomas Poller notifications@github.com wrote:

'performer' might be more related to a personal action by a living person: A singer, an actor, a musician, a commedian. However, a 'performer' must not necessarily be an 'artist'.
An 'Exhibition' might be something rather static, showing pysical items, being as well an 'Event', meaning go there now and look, listen etc..
Bravo for combining them to ExhibitionEvent!
Exhibited physical items are quite often related to a person, author etc., e.g. a 'maker' (craftsman), or an 'artist' (painter, etc., living or already passed away, e.g. Picasso).
May be having all three itemprops would be a good idea: 'performer', 'maker', 'artist'.


Reply to this email directly or view it on GitHub.

@thhap
thhap commented Jan 12, 2016

@danbri - Until a decision is made regarding possible new itemprop="artist" and "curator" "maker"/"creator"
we implemented "performer" and "organizer" for artist and curator for our table based exhibition history pages
http://screencast.com/t/3TxMp03apuF

@rbailly
rbailly commented Jan 12, 2016

+1 for curator but I disagree with artist or performer.

The "artist" ( Andy Warhol in the example of @thhap ) is the subject of the exhibition. You may have exhibitions about "Marie Curie" or about "the internet".
So +1 for the property about which comes with CreativeWork..

@thhap
thhap commented Jan 12, 2016

@rbailly The structure of exhibition information starts always with the Exhibition Title + Sub-Title, we use itemprop="name",
Then Start and End Date and location
Then all the artists and curators who take part at this exhibition, sometimes 20 or many more.
In this case it is a Solo-Exhibition of Andy Warhol and he is listed with his name as 'artist' of this exhibition, as the "subject".
Exhibiiton titles want to tease but can't list e.g. 20 or 100 artists taking part at an exhibition.

A "performer" may rather be related to a live-act, Warhol died 1987.
I suggested additional itemprop "artist" and "curator" and "maker" and/or "creator" to better discribe what visitors of an exhibition could expect.
May be itemprop="subject" instead of artists etc. could avoid a too high differentiation.
If the V&A would have an exhibition with furniture makers or fashion designers and need to list their names it would help to categorize them under e.g. "creator" rather than "performer".

@thhap
thhap commented Jan 12, 2016

https://schema.org/ExhibitionEvent listing itemprop
Properties from Event
Properties from Thing
Where are
Properties from Exhibitions?

@thhap
thhap commented Jan 13, 2016

itemtype ExhbitionEvent
itemprop="artist" isn't possible as it has moved to bib.schema.org/artist
itemprop="creator" is bound to type schema.org/CreativeWork - If it could be used for ExhbitionEvent would be much appreciated.
itemprop="organizer" can be used without problem for "curator".
Curator / curating an exhibition is used more often worldwide, but organizing an exhibition is used, too.

I hope that ExhibitonEvent will have some day itemprops which help describing Exhibitios better.
"performer" is nice for Events like theater, or concert but not for an exhibition of e.g. painting.

@thhap
thhap commented Jan 29, 2016

@danbri Regarding developing https://schema.org/ExhibitionEvent
Would it be possible to add 'Contributor' as itemprop, with 'Person' or 'Organization' range?
https://schema.org/contributor
'contributor' would complement 'performer' and 'organizer' to enable more detailed structure of the wide range of ExhibitionEvnet information data.

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