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Add EventSeries as subclass of Series #447

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wikier opened this issue Apr 23, 2015 · 34 comments
Open

Add EventSeries as subclass of Series #447

wikier opened this issue Apr 23, 2015 · 34 comments

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@wikier
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@wikier wikier commented Apr 23, 2015

This is issue is to discuss the PR #446 about how to add support to event series.

It is related with some other ongoing discussions, such as the repeating events modelling (issue #240) and the new event types (issue #406).

@danbri danbri added this to the 2015 Q2 milestone Apr 23, 2015
@danbri
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@danbri danbri commented Apr 23, 2015

Thanks! Let's discuss under #240 for now...

@danbri
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@danbri danbri commented Mar 17, 2016

Can folk here please take a look at the Courses discussion, which has run directly into this topic: https://www.w3.org/community/schema-course-extend/wiki/Main_Page https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-schema-course-extend/2016Mar/0021.html

@danbri
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@danbri danbri commented Apr 7, 2016

I've just added EventSeries into the 'pending.schema.org' extension I've created - intent is to avoid things getting stuck in Github limbo for so long. Right now this is just in the upstream/dev site webschemas.org but I hope we'll agree a workflow where proposals can go more quickly to pending.schema.org without waiting for large releases.

See http://pending.webschemas.org/EventSeries

(files are in data/ext/pending/issue-447* ... could do with an example - maybe someone could convert the Turtle in the PR into JSON-LD?)

@wikier
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@wikier wikier commented Apr 8, 2016

Good to see this moving forward, @danbri!

Since #446 was based on a pretty old branch, I've just added a new PR #1088 with the same proposal we had, but adding an example (both in Turtle and JSON-LD).

@chaals
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@chaals chaals commented Apr 8, 2016

Can we have a bit more information in the definition please?

(Admittedly I can't think of a clear explanation immediately either :( )

@danbri
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@danbri danbri commented Apr 9, 2016

How about:

"An EventSeries is a Series of related events. The nature of the association between the events can vary, but typical examples could include a thematic event series (e.g. topical meetups or classes), or a series of regular events that share a location, attendee group and/or organizers."

I have mentioned 'classes' here which might merit some consideration w.r.t. the courses work. /cc @philbarker

@chaals
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@chaals chaals commented Apr 9, 2016

Counter offer that also tests whether I have understood what everyone else has:

An EventSeries is a collection of events that share some unifying characteristic. For example, "The Olympic Games" is a series, which is repeated regularly. The "2012 London Olympics" can be presented both as an Event in the series "Olympic Games", and as an EventSeries that included a number of sporting competitions as Events.

"The Ashes" (cricket contest between Australia and England) is repeated frequently, but not according to any long-term stable schedule. The course "Beowulf: the manuscript and the man" can be an EventSeries consisting of individual seminars with the same participants, and an EventSeries of the course being held repeatedly over a decade.

@unor
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@unor unor commented Apr 10, 2016

I’m surprised that EventSeries is a CreativeWork. (Or Series for that matter, but I don’t understand this type yet.)

Are the Olympic Games (as in: the event series) really a creative work? And if yes, why is a single Olympic Games event not also a creative work then?

@wikier
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@wikier wikier commented Apr 11, 2016

I'm happy to improve the description. The porposal by @danbri sounds good for me. I'll await for more feedback before updating PR #1088.

@danbri
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@danbri danbri commented Apr 11, 2016

@chaals 's example is interesting - can we focus on that one for now?

We ought to be confident that we can show both usages work sensibly together and that the extra expressivity we bring comes with clear usage guidance.

For example consider if there is a 2016 seminar series (e.g. each of 6 x 1h sessions on successive weeks), and then later the course is re-run as a 2017 series with the same structure and topic, but different people. This also relates to whether we want to say that EventSeries is a subtype of Event (or at least carries Event-like properties).

Aside: please note that the nice diagram in #1088 is out of date w.r.t. the current proposed design which uses superEvent to point to the EventSeries. This confused me today so I thought a warning worthwhile.

@chaals :

The course "Beowulf: the manuscript and the man" can be an EventSeries consisting of individual seminars with the same participants, and an EventSeries of the course being held repeatedly over a decade.

  • 'Beowulf: the manuscript and the man' (an annually repeating sequence of 6 seminar sessions)
    • 2016 Beowulf course
      • 2016 session 1: ...
      • 2016 session 2: ...
      • 2016 session 3: ...
      • 2016 session 4: ...
      • 2016 session 5: ...
      • 2016 session 6: ...
    • 2017 Beowulf course
      • 2017 session 1: ...
      • 2017 session 2: ...
      • 2017 session 3: ...
      • 2017 session 4: ...
      • 2017 session 5: ...
      • 2017 session 6: ...
    • 2018 Beowulf course (...etc.)

@chaals outlines two views. One is to see the 6 sessions in 2016 as an EventSeries i.e. '2016 Beowulf course', the other is to see the sequence of annual runs of the course - i.e. 'Beowulf: the manuscript and the man' - as an EventSeries. Either way, superEvent would point up the hierarchy, from e.g. '2017 session 3' (an Event) to '2017 Beowulf course' (an Event or an EventSeries) and from there to the top level 'Beowulf: the manuscript and the man' which is presumably an EventSeries but not an Event since it represents just the high level notion of the series rather than something that you can say is happening at a particular place and time.

The mid-level is the most awkward. Intuition pulls it towards being both Event ("An event happening at a certain time and location" e.g. summer 2016, Madrid) and also an EventSeries (approximately "a collection of events that share some unifying characteristic e.g. relationship").

I can't see a way to escape saying "some but not all EventSeries may also be usefully treated as being an Event" i.e. occasional multiple typing at the level of instance data. It seems to me to be over-stretch to bake into the schema definitions the claim that every EventSeries is an Event.

In addition w.r.t. supertypes, I notice with (some embarrassment) that we added CreativeWorkSeries as a parent for various other series-types, but that it seems currently to be unrelated to Series. Looking more closely (opened #1090 ) we had in #417 marked Series in the schema definition files as supersededBy CreativeWorkSeries, but we didn't complete the job (either in site UI or updated definition). I propose we restore Series since it is a natural supertype for both EventSeries and CreativeWorkSeries. On @unor's point, I am comfortable with Series being under CreativeWork because we have http://schema.org/ItemList for a more pure list data structure detached from social context.

I should add that whatever we say about using superEvent and EventSeries we should support the corresponding use of subEvent in the reverse direction. From our next release we mark these explicitly as inverseOf each other per #1057 so we ought to permit both variants even if we emphasize one.

@philbarker
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@philbarker philbarker commented Apr 13, 2016

There seem to be three different things being discussed here: (1) sub/super events, i.e. individual events that are distinct but related, e.g. seminars 1-6 in the Beowulf course, or matches/stages/events in a sports competition; (2) separate offerings/seasons/editions of events, which have some degree of equivalence without being identical, i.e. they are offered to the same blueprint or with the same aims but with different people involved and variations in format (e.g. each edition of the Tour de France has different stages); and (3) repeated events, such as the same play being performed for several nights.

For courses, I think it is fair to say that while a course may repeat annually and include a "sequence of 6 seminar sessions" we should be careful not to limit it to that: it may be offered in other formats and may include other things apart from a sequence of sessions.

Currently in modelling courses we have
Course, http://course.schema-course-extend.appspot.com/Course a CreativeWork, "A description of an educational course which may be offered as distinct instances at different times and places, or through different media or modes of study. An educational course is a sequence of one or more educational events and/or creative works which aims to build knowledge, competence or ability of learners."
CourseInstance, http://course.schema-course-extend.appspot.com/CourseInstance an Event. "An offering of the course at a specific time and place or through specific media or mode of study or to a specific section of students."

So Course may be the description of an example of event series in sense (2) and CourseInstance may include an example of event series in sense (1) above.

danbri added a commit that referenced this issue Apr 14, 2016
Also we now declare EventSeries a type of Event, so we don't
specialcase superEvent (or subEvent) in the definitions.
wikier added a commit to redlink-gmbh/schemaorg that referenced this issue Apr 21, 2016
@danbri
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@danbri danbri commented Aug 10, 2016

This is published in pending.schema.org. Are there any changes or improvements to make? Would it make sense to progress it into the schema.org core?

@danbri danbri removed this from the sdo-phobos release milestone Aug 10, 2016
@thadguidry
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@thadguidry thadguidry commented Aug 10, 2016

@danbri Small improvement needed I think.... also add term 'event' to the actor property definition. It should read ...

An actor, e.g. in tv, radio, movie, video games etc., or in an event. Actors can be associated with individual items, events or with a series, episode, clip. Supersedes actors.

+1 for moving this into core. I expected that to happen actually.

@danbri
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@danbri danbri commented Aug 10, 2016

Thanks @thadguidry, I've added that todo to a similar issue #1290

@wikier
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@wikier wikier commented Aug 11, 2016

I was expecting that by entering pending.schema.org it was just a matter of gathering more feedback until it could go into a release.

I'd love to see this in 3.2. So let's me know what you think is still necessary. I'll check what #1290 is about.

@danbri
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@danbri danbri commented Aug 11, 2016

@thadguidry looking again, we already say " or in an event.":

"An actor, e.g. in tv, radio, movie, video games etc., or in an event. Actors can be associated with individual items, events or with a series, episode, clip. Supersedes actors."

@nextdude
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@nextdude nextdude commented Dec 12, 2016

I was reading the discussion between @mfhepp and @wikier in #446 discussing whether there is a need for a separate entity called EventSeries, vs just using the subEvent and superEvent relationships in the Event entity. I didn't see discussion there of using Role as an intermediary to clarify the relationships. It is a possible solution to the problem that leverages an existing extension point without adding a new abstraction.

@saumier
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@saumier saumier commented Mar 27, 2018

@nextdude @wikier @mfhepp I am looking into the use of EventSeries to model a series of Events in performing arts, such as a repeat performance of the same theatre play. I have considered using the existing relationship subEvent and superEvent already supported in the Event entity, but find a significant down side leading to confusion when superEvent and subEvent appear as duplicate Events when searching Events. The use of Role can clarify if you have prior knowledge, but also seems like a down side because it adds complexity to queries. EventSeries removes the need to have prior understanding of how the Events are modelled specifically when merging Events with different data sources.

@rvguha
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@rvguha rvguha commented Mar 27, 2018

@danbri
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@danbri danbri commented Apr 20, 2018

@rvguha - we did exactly that (i.e. rename Series to be CreativeWorkSeries) some while ago, and were close to deprecating Series except we didn't have the technical machinery in the site for type deprecation at the time. And then EventSeries appeared so Series was left dangling. In #1090 I asked

is there any value in "Series" over and above having different kinds of series like EventSeries, CreativeWorkSeries?

Regardless, EventSeries should indeed be a subtype of Event.

If we decide to keep Series around as a common supertype, it will need to be subClassOf something. Putting it under Intangible means that we will then have CreativeWorkSeries and EventSeries that inherit from intangible, while also being of types CreativeWork or Event. Putting it directly under Thing gives it a very high profile, pragmatically.

@thadguidry
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@thadguidry thadguidry commented Apr 20, 2018

@danbri Putting Series under Thing might be best... the only extra class between them might be Group, which we don't have. That's how its subclassed on Wikidata btw. And their Group is a subclass of Object (sorta close to our Thing) Just Saying.

@rvguha
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@rvguha rvguha commented Apr 20, 2018

danbri added a commit that referenced this issue Apr 26, 2018
Series type was previously left as a CreativeWork subclass, which was
an error dating from its role as the original name for our CreativeWorkSeries.
danbri added a commit that referenced this issue Apr 26, 2018
…supertype.

We have two subtypes of it, CreativeWorkSeries (successor to the original
definition of Series, which was too generally named), plus the proposed
EventSeries type (currently in the Pending area).

These domain-specific series types also have corresponding supertypes in
CreativeWork and Event.

/cc #447 #1090
@vberkel
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@vberkel vberkel commented Jun 12, 2018

@danbri in moving the Series, the properties isPartOf and hasPart are no longer available as their domain was CreativeWork. The JSON-LD example for EventSeries series uses hasPart, but that is not available to the Class. Should the domain of hasPart and isPartOf add Series?

@RichardWallis
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@RichardWallis RichardWallis commented Jun 12, 2018

+1 expanding domain of isPartOf & hasPart to include Series

@RichardWallis
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@RichardWallis RichardWallis commented Jun 12, 2018

... would also need to add Series to their rangeIncludes

@ldodds
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@ldodds ldodds commented Jul 26, 2018

+1 on how this proposal is shaping up. What's need to get it out of pending?

@JeanCollas
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@JeanCollas JeanCollas commented May 3, 2019

I found this thread there:
https://schema.org/EventSeries

Is it ready to be implemented on our websites, or should we wait for a stable release?

I have different kind of event series:

  • events of a same organizer (may not be relevant for this property)
  • regular events
  • seasonal regular events (should probably be 2 levels of event series)

I am still unclear with the overlap with subEvent and superEvent.

And a bit confused with "long" events, like 15 days, for which each day could be seen as an event, which class to use.

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@github-actions github-actions bot commented Sep 3, 2020

This issue is being tagged as Stale due to inactivity.

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