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Pulling prone mobs slows you down, fireman carrying #43063

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commented Mar 8, 2019

About The Pull Request

Pulling a prone mob slows you down.
This should be anything that makes spessman horizontal. Currently it is resting, crit, knocked down, unconscious, or dead. tell me if I missed any.
Having them buckled to anything does not slow you down.
You also now can fireman carry prone humans as a human. Aggressive grab then click and drag onto you, and you will begin fireman carrying. This requires a free hand. This causes a slight slowdown, but not nearly as much as dragging does.

Why It's Good For The Game

Prevents the classic "stun and beat the shit out of while zipping off" which is obnoxious and I don't think anybody likes besides the people who do it.
Makes it so if you feel like being a cunt you can rest while being arrested to make you a pain to take back.
Makes it harder to steal bodies and move away before anybody can properly react, but makes dragging bodies riskier at the same time
Fireman carrying adds an element of risk reward, it takes a little while of standing still to pick them up and also slows you down slightly. More useful to move someone a long distance out of a relatively safe area than a quick pull away.

Changelog

馃啈
balance: Dragging a prone (knocked down, resting, in critical) mob slows you down.
add: You can now fireman carry. Fireman carrying can be done by humanoids, on prone humanoids. Aggressive grab then click and drag them to you to begin fireman carrying a prone humanoid. It requires a free hand.
balance: Carrying another human applies a slight slowdown.
/馃啈

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commented Mar 8, 2019

what about silicons and simplemobs

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commented Mar 8, 2019

what about silicons and simplemobs

What do you mean? If the simplemob can rest, yeah, they can rest to be slowed down. I don't believe silicons can rest, and they are affected by the drag slowdown.

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commented Mar 8, 2019

is there not a dead check or is that intentional?

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commented Mar 8, 2019

I assumed that a critical check would cover dead as well, is that wrong?

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commented Mar 8, 2019

I can only find

/mob/living/proc/InCritical()
return (health <= crit_threshold && (stat == SOFT_CRIT || stat == UNCONSCIOUS))

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commented Mar 8, 2019

will this slow down aggrograbs on bodies down even more, or do they retain the same pull speed since they're already pretty slow?

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commented Mar 8, 2019

these changes hurt me physically but i know the game needs it to have combat that isnt aids godspeed

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commented Mar 8, 2019

good idea and it makes the bad users angry

@4dplanner

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commented Mar 8, 2019

Making it more annoying to help people (such as drag to medbay) will lead to less people helping, which will be irritating. The arrest part will probably also get old fast as sec.

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commented Mar 8, 2019

Also dragging off a body while hitting it is good in that it lets you do SOMETHING against a stronger force, rather than being forced into 100% running because of how easy patching someone up from hit and run attacks is in this game.

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commented Mar 8, 2019

This will make rollerbeds actually have a legitimate use besides rocketing down the halls. As for arrests, just give them extra time for resisting. Good change all and all.

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commented Mar 8, 2019

just use BSbodybags to detain perps lol

@Mickyan

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commented Mar 8, 2019

you can't make killing harder because healing is too easy

you can't make healing harder because killing is too easy

馃

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commented Mar 8, 2019

Making it more annoying to help people (such as drag to medbay) will lead to less people helping, which will be irritating. The arrest part will probably also get old fast as sec.

99.9% of the time someone drags someone to medbay, they drag out 35% of their fucking blood, this will at least slow them down so they can be called a dumbass, or maybe even make them use a locker!
Speed drugs still exist if you need to drag people to hell.

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commented Mar 8, 2019

does it slow down silicons/simple mobs that drag people? seems like a big holoparasite buff since the main counter was the drag'n'beat

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commented Mar 8, 2019

just do it on a rolly chair lol

pocket metal will be the new meta

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commented Mar 8, 2019

#bodybagmasterrace
holoparas have been in for a fucking for a long time, way too good still. would you rather have a blood brother or 2tc and a stand?

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commented Mar 8, 2019

Put more thought into a better solution, in cult/rev/tiding situations no one has time to stun and cuff, you usually need to stun them until you reach a safe area. This isn鈥檛 a traitor nerf, its a security one.

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commented Mar 8, 2019

Isn't it a cult nerf though @wesoda25

FU-MAJIN!

Goes and drags the Hop away really slowly

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commented Mar 8, 2019

This is a big holoparasite nerf; one of the best things about having a holoparasite is that they can pull you away from sec officers while you're stunned so that you won't be cuffed/you can escape. Now, if a holoparasite tries that, they'll just get shot by lethals and die because the sec officers will easily be able to keep up with them.

Maybe specifically add a thing that makes holoparasites who are dragging their summoners ignore this change? Say it has something to do with the bond between summoner and holoparasite or something.

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commented Mar 8, 2019

Would be cool if there was a way to fireman carry a downed person. Maybe grab intent -> Aggro grab -> Clickdrag to self? There would obviously be a delay while you're lifting them up and it could use a hand slot

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commented Mar 8, 2019

@PKPenguin321 That'd be a nice alternative.

This mass rebalance PR just doesn't cut it chief.

In my opinion, there are literally too many game modes and things in this game that function around grabbing your partner and being able to zip away.

Huge Nerf. It may not be a feature that is wanted, but it's surely one that needs to be there. You literally have to replace it with something

Edit: @imsxz if changing the combat meta means just throwing a bunch of nerfs at literally every mechanic in the game. It sounds like we're all actually just trying to please some god of entropy instead of actually adding good alternatives to these common combat scenarios we find ourselves in.

To be more clear, it's like instead of adding counters to the "Rock beats Scissors" scenario we find ourselves in. Like adding Paper. We instead just bludgeon rock a bunch and turn it into a pebble.

We're just making things more unfun!

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commented Mar 9, 2019

Tbh it seems as if you鈥檙e in this fervor of game changing PRs and haven鈥檛 stopped to consider whether or not this will actually improve the game.

Dragging at full speed isn鈥檛 really a great mechanic, and it makes for shit gameplay like stun, grab, and run. However, its not necessarily a bad mechanic, and adding a slowdown would result in many good uses being nerfed. Tasks normal to accomplish usually will become challenging with this, and make certain aspects of gameplay unenjoyable.

Now that it has been called to attention, perhaps passive drag does need changing. However, I think it requires something a bit more articulate than this, seems sort of like a rushed PR, the first solution that came to mind.

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commented Mar 9, 2019

Alternative Alternative Idea.

What if you just increased the amount of damage dragging does to an injured person. Sounds like an easy slight change that doesn't cause a fester of salt and hate to form.

I'm pretty sure dragging people worsens blood loss, so if you do that + the new Epi-Pen and oxygen healing nerf PR. It'll increase the use of a medical doctor more as they need to help heal blood loss.

Bam. A slight change that'll improve departmental interaction

Edit: and I mean by a lot. Too. Make a nerd go from just bleeding to unconscious. Teach those cultists not to rough house so much, would teach everyone else to use a bodybag.

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commented Mar 20, 2019

The rollerbed already has a point though. It's so that you can take an injured person to medbay without them losing blood.

I would hope you'd retract from giving the firemen carry a speed nerf as well. If you make it so, "This item does this action better then without having this item" You're going to see that item not being used for its original use at all.

Or to put it more simply, assistants and antagonists are going to steal Rollerbeds from actual medical personnel. Making them even more useless.

Since the Rollerbed already has a use, if you want them to be more useful. Just aggravate that use in a separate PR. Like making blood-loss from being dragged around on the floor more severe.

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commented Mar 20, 2019

Can you craft rollerbeds...?

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commented Mar 20, 2019

Nope.

But the wiki lead me to a funny section where it talks about how beds were once used for ERP on /tg/station.

Classic.

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commented Mar 21, 2019

They should be craftable at the med techfab at the cost of lockers giving the same slowdown as fireman carry ;)

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commented Mar 25, 2019

I think pacifists are going to be unable to fireman carry since they can't aggressive grab

Which I think might be a bug/oversight? This seems to imply it should stop you from throwing mobs which already needs an aggressive grab

if(pulling && isliving(pulling) && grab_state >= GRAB_AGGRESSIVE)
var/mob/living/throwable_mob = pulling
if(!throwable_mob.buckled)
thrown_thing = throwable_mob
stop_pulling()
if(has_trait(TRAIT_PACIFISM))
to_chat(src, "<span class='notice'>You gently let go of [throwable_mob].</span>")

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commented Mar 25, 2019

Also just remembered that aggro grab -> clickdrag to self is shared by swallowing mobs whole (which you can do to monkeys if you're obese, or if you're a xenomorph)

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commented Mar 25, 2019

Yeah, this PR is quite the allergic reaction to a problem that doesn't exist.

And it breaks other interactions as well.

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commented Mar 25, 2019

the carry is the allergic reaction to the problem that doesn't exist
very excited for a nerf to the cultists that can carry four stunmutes in their arms at once and for the nerf to the unstunnable demons who cannot be caught unless they willingly come out and are too dumb to escape

@ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone changed the title [READY] Pulling prone mobs slows you down, fireman carrying Pulling prone mobs slows you down, fireman carrying Mar 25, 2019
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commented Mar 25, 2019

Wondering if it'd be more straightforward to add a button for it in the "access inventory" screen, like it's done for toggling other people's internals

Beats arbitrary combos that you probably wouldn't figure out on your own without looking at a wiki, methinks

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commented Mar 25, 2019

Because I cant stun a simple mob that only appears on wizard rounds, it must need a nerf

Because cult is a shit mode and they get invisible instant stuns and can make four of them. We must nerf everything else

Holy shit dude. This is literally like going Tsunamis are the best solution to global warming.

You're going too far off the deep end. If you have a problem with those individual features, Mass Nerfs that either makes a feature redundant or breaks it entirely isn't the solution.

I also disagree with you on Slaughter Demons. You're angry that simple mobs aren't stunnable? That's literally every simple mob ever. They offer really good Loot too, And they already slow down super fast to below human speed. So you can easily outrun them as long as you're not near any blood.

It's a problem that doesn't exist.

Also cobby, I feel like them being craftable would overcomplicate things. In essence, it'd be like, "You can't go from Point A to Point B without this item. So every round you must make sure to head to medbay and give up some inventory space to store this item in your bag in the first place." When you should just be able to use the alternative Fireman carry feature in the first place.

The fireman carry was a fake solution to throw heat off his back. This PR is still the same as it was originally. Just with a Poster covering the gaping hole in the wall.

Edit: Actioninja why do you do this to the player base, First it was pretending to re-add pre-scanning. Then it was pretending Disarms were still useful. And now it's pretending like you've added an alternative to your nerf. It's one big sham, fraud, and since such an event has become so common with your Pull Requests. I think I shall see past them for any future ones you do.

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commented Mar 25, 2019

Also cobby, I feel like them being craftable would overcomplicate things. In essence, it'd be like, "You can't go from Point A to Point B without this item. So every round you must make sure to head to medbay and give up some inventory space to store this item in your bag in the first place." When you should just be able to use the alternative Fireman carry feature in the first place.

It's not mandatory unless you're carrying people constantly (security maybe?). It also isn't inventory space unless you have a BSB maybe, it's a handslot OR the "pulling" slot. If you need one that badly then using up that slot shouldn't be an issue, and it becomes a very balanced item.

This isn't including the fact that, unlike lockers, the only thing that can go on the bed are mobs. You could say that beds move faster because it's easily visible that you're dragging someone away, unlike a locker/crate where you could be dragging ore (rip) or parts.

That's not to suggest I don't want the fireman carry, I just think there's merits in the PR even without it.

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commented Mar 25, 2019

My point on the fireman carry was just that. It's not the all for one alternative to pulling mobs. Since you have to steal stuff from medbay if you want to do it very efficiently. Not Epic.

This PR needed forethought. It contained lies and silence.

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commented Mar 26, 2019

Edit: Actioninja why do you do this to the player base, First it was pretending to re-add pre-scanning. Then it was pretending Disarms were still useful. And now it's pretending like you've added an alternative to your nerf. It's one big sham, fraud, and since such an event has become so common with your Pull Requests. I think I shall see past them for any future ones you do.

lol

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commented Mar 27, 2019

I understand you have goldfish memory shadowflame, but I thought you鈥檇 remember that I am pleased with everything this nerfs, not just memons and cucktists.

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commented Mar 27, 2019

Oh yeah, what if I make a Sentient Pet Rock Simple Mob.

Too bad it can't drag you to medbay efficiently before you bleed out

Because its dragging speed is terrible.

But this unironically breaks slaughter-demons.

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commented Mar 28, 2019

The joke is, dear silly-boy, that a slower dragging speed would stop people bleeding out, because people bleed out extremely slowly unless they're currently being fucking moved. This doesn't break slaughter demons. the broken part of slaughter demons is they're physically impossible to stop unless they're too aggressive and fuck up. I personally don't hate the idea that what isn't even the main round antag can be evaded at least partially by sticking together.

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commented Mar 28, 2019

Don't say the r word you fool

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commented Mar 28, 2019

I have the R word pass

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commented Mar 28, 2019

why are you like this

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commented Mar 28, 2019

I have the r word pass, because I鈥檓 a silly-boy.

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commented Mar 28, 2019

I think pacifists are going to be unable to fireman carry since they can't aggressive grab

Which I think might be a bug/oversight? This seems to imply it should stop you from throwing mobs which already needs an aggressive grab
tgstation/code/modules/mob/living/carbon/carbon.dm

Lines 160 to 166 in d5b2615

if(pulling && isliving(pulling) && grab_state >= GRAB_AGGRESSIVE)
var/mob/living/throwable_mob = pulling
if(!throwable_mob.buckled)
thrown_thing = throwable_mob
stop_pulling()
if(has_trait(TRAIT_PACIFISM))
to_chat(src, "You gently let go of [throwable_mob].")

@actioninja tested?

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commented Apr 1, 2019

@ExcessiveUseOfCobblestone I finally actually tested this, and yes, pacifists cannot fireman carry.
Two options of how I can fix this:
Pacifists can fireman from a passive grab
Pacifists can aggressive grab but can't do any aggressive actions.

Which would be be better?

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commented Apr 1, 2019

The latter I think unless you have a good reason to do the former.

It can be fluffed by aggressive grabs don't always mean you want to harm the individual.

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commented Apr 2, 2019

Thog say, for now, want to see how meta shakes out, but thog interested in seeing this later

@optimumtact optimumtact closed this Apr 2, 2019
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commented May 11, 2019

thog, look at dis again

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commented May 11, 2019

If I had a nickel for every time I necro'd a forgotten nerf.

I'd be broke.

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commented May 12, 2019

@Ratvar it is on my list, don't worry, I do intend to remove the stun + click drag into maint to kill at leisure mechanics

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