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Code of Conduct: Let's revamp it.

The Code of Conflict is not achieving its implicit goal of fostering
civility and the spirit of 'be excellent to each other'.  Explicit
guidelines have demonstrated success in other projects and other areas
of the kernel.

Here is a Code of Conduct statement for the wider kernel.  It is based
on the Contributor Covenant as described at www.contributor-covenant.org

From this point forward, we should abide by these rules in order to help
make the kernel community a welcoming environment to participate in.

Signed-off-by: Chris Mason <clm@fb.com>
Signed-off-by: Dan Williams <dan.j.williams@intel.com>
Signed-off-by: Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net>
Signed-off-by: Olof Johansson <olof@lxom.net>
Signed-off-by: Steven Rostedt (VMware) <rostedt@goodmis.org>
Signed-off-by: Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>
Signed-off-by: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
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gregkh authored and torvalds committed Sep 15, 2018
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Contributor Covenant Code of Conduct

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@kirkins

kirkins Sep 30, 2018

From the creator of the CoC:

"Some people are saying that the Contributor Covenant is a political document, and they’re right."

https://mobile.twitter.com/coralineada/status/1041465346656530432

@kirkins

kirkins Sep 30, 2018

From the creator of the CoC:

"Some people are saying that the Contributor Covenant is a political document, and they’re right."

https://mobile.twitter.com/coralineada/status/1041465346656530432

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Our Pledge
==========
In the interest of fostering an open and welcoming environment, we as
contributors and maintainers pledge to making participation in our project and
our community a harassment-free experience for everyone, regardless of age, body

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@JMP2DIS

JMP2DIS Sep 27, 2018

'Harassment covers a wide range of behaviors of an offensive nature.' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment
Harassment is a interpretation of someones actions.

Wouldn't it just be easier to put 'just be respectful'? Instead of all this stuff that can be interpreted based on perceived beliefs.

@JMP2DIS

JMP2DIS Sep 27, 2018

'Harassment covers a wide range of behaviors of an offensive nature.' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment
Harassment is a interpretation of someones actions.

Wouldn't it just be easier to put 'just be respectful'? Instead of all this stuff that can be interpreted based on perceived beliefs.

size, disability, ethnicity, sex characteristics, gender identity and
expression, level of experience, education, socio-economic status, nationality,

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@thunderbird89

thunderbird89 Sep 24, 2018

regardless of [...] level of experience, education

This is incredibly dangerous language in any project, especially one of the cornerstones of the technology world.

@thunderbird89

thunderbird89 Sep 24, 2018

regardless of [...] level of experience, education

This is incredibly dangerous language in any project, especially one of the cornerstones of the technology world.

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@thunderbird89

thunderbird89 Sep 24, 2018

There was a person who thumbed the previous version of this comment down. I just wanted to let them know, if they see this, that I wasn't "running away" from it, I just realized that I commented a private opinion using a professional account.

@thunderbird89

thunderbird89 Sep 24, 2018

There was a person who thumbed the previous version of this comment down. I just wanted to let them know, if they see this, that I wasn't "running away" from it, I just realized that I commented a private opinion using a professional account.

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@Cyumus

Cyumus Sep 25, 2018

I followed the rabbit hole and I ended on the root of the problem. The problem is that they don't believe in meritocracy, they're supporters of something called post-meritocracy. https://postmeritocracy.org/

We do not believe that our value as human beings is intrinsically tied to our value as knowledge workers. Our professions do not define us; we are more than the work we do.

In meritocracy, somebody that has worked and studied medicine has more value than somebody that doesn't when talking about medicine and practicing it. In post-meritocracy, when a plane is going down, they don't ask for a pilot, they don't care if someone has flown a plane before, they only care if the person who flies it doesn't like potatoes.

We believe that interpersonal skills are at least as important as technical skills.

I'm sorry. Did I say that they only care if the person who flies the plane doesn't like potatoes? I meant that they only care if the person who flies the plane doesn't like potatoes and is good at saying that potatoes are not a great meal while crashing the plane, or even blame the former dead pilot for being dead.

We can add the most value as professionals by drawing on the diversity of our identities, backgrounds, experiences, and perspectives. Homogeneity is an antipattern.

Of course, when flying a plane, it is important that you don't like potatoes, even if you haven't eaten any potato in your life, remember, experience is not necessary to know if you like potatoes or not. More important, you have to say it through your mic in order to make the crew aware of your condition of potato hater.

We can be successful while leading rich, full lives. Our success and value is not dependent on exerting all of our energy on contributing to software.

Yeah, you may not know how to fly a plane, less to land it, but hey, you're good at cooking, this will help you when landing the plane, I'm sure. If not, physics are racist.

We have the obligation to use our positions of privilege, however tenuous, to improve the lives of others.

Of course, if you are the pilot, you have to improve the lives of your crew, and the passengers. The thing is that the privilege here is to take the control of the plane, and somebody had to give you the privilege of flying the plane. Being a potato lover is not a privilege. Privileges are 'permissions' or 'powers' that somebody with more power, the authority, gives you. People often misuses (in purpose or because lack of knowledge) the terms of privileged and fortunate. Somebody that has born as a potato lover is fortunate, not privileged. Winning the lotto is fortunate, not privileged. Hiding behind laws based on your political agenda that gives people that hates potatoes more powers before the other people that loves potatoes is privileged. It makes the potato lovers different from the others just because they like potatoes, and potato haters blame the potato lovers that they can't like potatoes because of the potatocracy.

We must make room for people who are not like us to enter our field and succeed there. This means not only inviting them in, but making sure that they are supported and empowered.

Unless they like potatoes, if they like potatoes, we insult them on Twitter.

We have an ethical responsibility to refuse to work on software that will negatively impact the well-being of other people.

Like allowing and enforcing that top-devs doesn't contribute developing on a community because they like potatoes, making the code unstable and full of vulnerabilities, which in fact impacts negatively the well-being of other people. But they like potatoes, so it's justifiable.

We acknowledge the value of non-technical contributors as equal to the value of technical contributors.

Yeah, the more people is in the cabin talking about how the pilot has to sit on the chair while landing, how it has to say the radio codes and politically correct ask for a landing track, the better. I'm sure that the pilot is going to be okay with this, while trying to pay attention to how correctly use the controls of the plane to land safely. All the garbage instructions won't flood the radio channel and won't make the pilot lose valuable time in any way. I'm sure.

We understand that working in our field is a privilege, not a right. The negative impact of toxic people in the workplace or the larger community is not offset by their technical contributions.

No, it's not. Neither a privilege nor a right. Working in our field is a consequence of studying and becoming a professional, either by autodidact learning or by academia. You can work in the fields you know, and this 'privilege' of talking about your field is just an illusion of the trust of people that know that you work in that field. I didn't give the privilege to my doctor to cure me, but I trust all the knowledge (s)he has in that field in order to cure me.

And in a plane, I trust more in someone that has flown them before than in somebody that doesn't like potatoes and it's the first time that flies a plane. Call me crazy... I mean, maybe this is madness and it doesn't make any sense...

We are devoted to practicing compassion and not contempt. We refuse to belittle other people because of their choices of tools, techniques, or languages.

Because saying that objectively a programming language, a technique or a tool is better than another is like insulting who uses them. Of course, I forgot that I had to process this with that idiotic logic, or idiologic (So ideology comes from idiot and logic... it makes sense, though).

The field of software development embraces technical change, and is made better by also accepting social change.

Of course, we make the changes, changes like ruining the lives of people that love potatoes, insulting them on Twitter and harass them, while we cry because people harass us too for being imbeciles.

We strive to reflect our values in everything that we do. We recognize that values that are espoused but not practiced are not values at all.

Part of the ship, part of the crew. Indeed.

Well, this made my day. I'm laughing at this stupid ideology that bases the Covenant that so many enterprises are using.

tl;dr
So I have these conclusions:
· Meritocracy is not a thing nowadays, don't try to convince them using meritocratic arguments saying that only the good code matters, they don't care.
· They only care about pushing an idiotic political agenda based on feelings rather than facts.
· This is Neo-Kantianism, and all those stupid ideas that are based on race led to fascism and marxism, and it's bullshit.

@Cyumus

Cyumus Sep 25, 2018

I followed the rabbit hole and I ended on the root of the problem. The problem is that they don't believe in meritocracy, they're supporters of something called post-meritocracy. https://postmeritocracy.org/

We do not believe that our value as human beings is intrinsically tied to our value as knowledge workers. Our professions do not define us; we are more than the work we do.

In meritocracy, somebody that has worked and studied medicine has more value than somebody that doesn't when talking about medicine and practicing it. In post-meritocracy, when a plane is going down, they don't ask for a pilot, they don't care if someone has flown a plane before, they only care if the person who flies it doesn't like potatoes.

We believe that interpersonal skills are at least as important as technical skills.

I'm sorry. Did I say that they only care if the person who flies the plane doesn't like potatoes? I meant that they only care if the person who flies the plane doesn't like potatoes and is good at saying that potatoes are not a great meal while crashing the plane, or even blame the former dead pilot for being dead.

We can add the most value as professionals by drawing on the diversity of our identities, backgrounds, experiences, and perspectives. Homogeneity is an antipattern.

Of course, when flying a plane, it is important that you don't like potatoes, even if you haven't eaten any potato in your life, remember, experience is not necessary to know if you like potatoes or not. More important, you have to say it through your mic in order to make the crew aware of your condition of potato hater.

We can be successful while leading rich, full lives. Our success and value is not dependent on exerting all of our energy on contributing to software.

Yeah, you may not know how to fly a plane, less to land it, but hey, you're good at cooking, this will help you when landing the plane, I'm sure. If not, physics are racist.

We have the obligation to use our positions of privilege, however tenuous, to improve the lives of others.

Of course, if you are the pilot, you have to improve the lives of your crew, and the passengers. The thing is that the privilege here is to take the control of the plane, and somebody had to give you the privilege of flying the plane. Being a potato lover is not a privilege. Privileges are 'permissions' or 'powers' that somebody with more power, the authority, gives you. People often misuses (in purpose or because lack of knowledge) the terms of privileged and fortunate. Somebody that has born as a potato lover is fortunate, not privileged. Winning the lotto is fortunate, not privileged. Hiding behind laws based on your political agenda that gives people that hates potatoes more powers before the other people that loves potatoes is privileged. It makes the potato lovers different from the others just because they like potatoes, and potato haters blame the potato lovers that they can't like potatoes because of the potatocracy.

We must make room for people who are not like us to enter our field and succeed there. This means not only inviting them in, but making sure that they are supported and empowered.

Unless they like potatoes, if they like potatoes, we insult them on Twitter.

We have an ethical responsibility to refuse to work on software that will negatively impact the well-being of other people.

Like allowing and enforcing that top-devs doesn't contribute developing on a community because they like potatoes, making the code unstable and full of vulnerabilities, which in fact impacts negatively the well-being of other people. But they like potatoes, so it's justifiable.

We acknowledge the value of non-technical contributors as equal to the value of technical contributors.

Yeah, the more people is in the cabin talking about how the pilot has to sit on the chair while landing, how it has to say the radio codes and politically correct ask for a landing track, the better. I'm sure that the pilot is going to be okay with this, while trying to pay attention to how correctly use the controls of the plane to land safely. All the garbage instructions won't flood the radio channel and won't make the pilot lose valuable time in any way. I'm sure.

We understand that working in our field is a privilege, not a right. The negative impact of toxic people in the workplace or the larger community is not offset by their technical contributions.

No, it's not. Neither a privilege nor a right. Working in our field is a consequence of studying and becoming a professional, either by autodidact learning or by academia. You can work in the fields you know, and this 'privilege' of talking about your field is just an illusion of the trust of people that know that you work in that field. I didn't give the privilege to my doctor to cure me, but I trust all the knowledge (s)he has in that field in order to cure me.

And in a plane, I trust more in someone that has flown them before than in somebody that doesn't like potatoes and it's the first time that flies a plane. Call me crazy... I mean, maybe this is madness and it doesn't make any sense...

We are devoted to practicing compassion and not contempt. We refuse to belittle other people because of their choices of tools, techniques, or languages.

Because saying that objectively a programming language, a technique or a tool is better than another is like insulting who uses them. Of course, I forgot that I had to process this with that idiotic logic, or idiologic (So ideology comes from idiot and logic... it makes sense, though).

The field of software development embraces technical change, and is made better by also accepting social change.

Of course, we make the changes, changes like ruining the lives of people that love potatoes, insulting them on Twitter and harass them, while we cry because people harass us too for being imbeciles.

We strive to reflect our values in everything that we do. We recognize that values that are espoused but not practiced are not values at all.

Part of the ship, part of the crew. Indeed.

Well, this made my day. I'm laughing at this stupid ideology that bases the Covenant that so many enterprises are using.

tl;dr
So I have these conclusions:
· Meritocracy is not a thing nowadays, don't try to convince them using meritocratic arguments saying that only the good code matters, they don't care.
· They only care about pushing an idiotic political agenda based on feelings rather than facts.
· This is Neo-Kantianism, and all those stupid ideas that are based on race led to fascism and marxism, and it's bullshit.

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@HLT

HLT Sep 26, 2018

Pls don't let this neo-marxistic compelled speech gender feminism equality-of-outcome bullshit get even near the linux kernel.
This is not about victims or oppression. This is an attack on the kernel and its community. Once they get a foot in the door Linux will be done.
Punch-In-Da-Face-Driven-Development works. Forget about the rest.

@HLT

HLT Sep 26, 2018

Pls don't let this neo-marxistic compelled speech gender feminism equality-of-outcome bullshit get even near the linux kernel.
This is not about victims or oppression. This is an attack on the kernel and its community. Once they get a foot in the door Linux will be done.
Punch-In-Da-Face-Driven-Development works. Forget about the rest.

personal appearance, race, religion, or sexual identity and orientation.
Our Standards
=============
Examples of behavior that contributes to creating a positive environment

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@ReinsBrain

ReinsBrain Sep 23, 2018

This seems antithetical to the often-needed brutal honesty that promotes the best code. I don't want to be saddled with inferior code because someone's feelings might have been hurt. The priority should be towards "excellence in code" over "excellence in politics".

@ReinsBrain

ReinsBrain Sep 23, 2018

This seems antithetical to the often-needed brutal honesty that promotes the best code. I don't want to be saddled with inferior code because someone's feelings might have been hurt. The priority should be towards "excellence in code" over "excellence in politics".

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@bhaavanmerchant

bhaavanmerchant Sep 24, 2018

I don't see any empirical evidence to your "antithetical" claim. On the contrary, "excellence in code" often exists in environments which are "excellent in community".

@bhaavanmerchant

bhaavanmerchant Sep 24, 2018

I don't see any empirical evidence to your "antithetical" claim. On the contrary, "excellence in code" often exists in environments which are "excellent in community".

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ReinsBrain Sep 24, 2018

"Excellence in community" shouldn't need to be mandated with politically-correct pseudo-law - it happens naturally with good folks asserting good examples. We're already seeing it used against Tso in a lobby to have him removed from the project for comments completely apart from the project (your empirical evidence).

@ReinsBrain

ReinsBrain Sep 24, 2018

"Excellence in community" shouldn't need to be mandated with politically-correct pseudo-law - it happens naturally with good folks asserting good examples. We're already seeing it used against Tso in a lobby to have him removed from the project for comments completely apart from the project (your empirical evidence).

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thunderbird89 Sep 24, 2018

The thing about programming is that in the vast majority of cases, there is an objectively correct way (the fastest, most performant, most scalable algorithm, written in a way that adheres to the coding standards of the project) to do things, and there is everything else.
Even at my workplace, we aim for the former, and if we have a disagreement, we run the same test/benchmark suite on both solutions, and the right way is immediately clear. This should be doubly so in a project as important as the Linux Kernel, one of the most crucial underpinnings of modern technology: only the very best code should get in, and anything else must be rejected, no matter people's feelings.

@thunderbird89

thunderbird89 Sep 24, 2018

The thing about programming is that in the vast majority of cases, there is an objectively correct way (the fastest, most performant, most scalable algorithm, written in a way that adheres to the coding standards of the project) to do things, and there is everything else.
Even at my workplace, we aim for the former, and if we have a disagreement, we run the same test/benchmark suite on both solutions, and the right way is immediately clear. This should be doubly so in a project as important as the Linux Kernel, one of the most crucial underpinnings of modern technology: only the very best code should get in, and anything else must be rejected, no matter people's feelings.

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thunderbird89 Sep 24, 2018

The thing about programming is that in the vast majority of cases, there is an objectively correct way (the fastest, most performant, most scalable algorithm, written in a way that adheres to the coding standards of the project) to do things, and there is everything else.
Even at my workplace, we aim for the former, and if we have a disagreement, we run the same test/benchmark suite on both solutions, and the right way is immediately clear. This should be doubly so in a project as important as the Linux Kernel, one of the most crucial underpinnings of modern technology: only the very best code should get in, and anything else must be rejected, no matter people's feelings.

You know, I am getting tired of this argument. So your workplace has no HR department? No rules of conduct? GTFO. Code is code, yes. Code may be not be capable of being offended, yes. Excellence in code is absolute, yes. But is your crappy code on stage talking about Linux, or writing documentation or emails, or representing your project? NO! People do that, not fucking code! These modest, commonsense guidelines are making sure unprofessional behavior doesn't detract from getting things done, and ensuring their leadership can take actions against damaging behavior as well. It has nothing to do with accepting bad code into the tree. This is so f-ing simple to understand, what is wrong with you people hahaha.

In an ideal world, I would agree with you 100%. I sincerely wish that everything I project turns out to be false because logic prevails. I really do.

But here's the thing: in the past few years, in more and more areas of life, we've seen feelings take the place of reasonable, measurable metrics, and turn decision-making into navigating a minefield until random people can force their will through by screaming "I'm offended by that!" at the top of their lungs, or by saying the magic words "I feel that [...]" - because once you say that, your argument can no longer be falsified and argued against (because how can you rebut an emotion?) and all further debate becomes baseless.
And to be honest, I fear that someone will submit a bad patch, and pull out the discrimination card when it gets rejected, forcing people to merge it lest they be removed for "discrimination". And once that happens, there's no stopping the avalanche, when everyone realizes you can remove obstacles by crying loud enough. And then the central pillar of the tech world comes crumbling down.

And yes, there are people behind the code. People ought to be respected. But people are not their creations, and if I say to my colleague "Your code is shit, get back to your workstation and fix it properly!" (or something to that effect - hyperboles apply), I make sure to point out to them that it is the code that is substandard, not them, and make sure they understand that no matter how much love and care they put into their works, they will never be equated to those works, and that criticism of those works is not criticism levelled at their person.

I really hope that I'm just being pessimistic and utterly, entirely wrong - but if I've had this idea, others must have had it too, and not all may be as restrained as I am.

@thunderbird89

thunderbird89 Sep 24, 2018

The thing about programming is that in the vast majority of cases, there is an objectively correct way (the fastest, most performant, most scalable algorithm, written in a way that adheres to the coding standards of the project) to do things, and there is everything else.
Even at my workplace, we aim for the former, and if we have a disagreement, we run the same test/benchmark suite on both solutions, and the right way is immediately clear. This should be doubly so in a project as important as the Linux Kernel, one of the most crucial underpinnings of modern technology: only the very best code should get in, and anything else must be rejected, no matter people's feelings.

You know, I am getting tired of this argument. So your workplace has no HR department? No rules of conduct? GTFO. Code is code, yes. Code may be not be capable of being offended, yes. Excellence in code is absolute, yes. But is your crappy code on stage talking about Linux, or writing documentation or emails, or representing your project? NO! People do that, not fucking code! These modest, commonsense guidelines are making sure unprofessional behavior doesn't detract from getting things done, and ensuring their leadership can take actions against damaging behavior as well. It has nothing to do with accepting bad code into the tree. This is so f-ing simple to understand, what is wrong with you people hahaha.

In an ideal world, I would agree with you 100%. I sincerely wish that everything I project turns out to be false because logic prevails. I really do.

But here's the thing: in the past few years, in more and more areas of life, we've seen feelings take the place of reasonable, measurable metrics, and turn decision-making into navigating a minefield until random people can force their will through by screaming "I'm offended by that!" at the top of their lungs, or by saying the magic words "I feel that [...]" - because once you say that, your argument can no longer be falsified and argued against (because how can you rebut an emotion?) and all further debate becomes baseless.
And to be honest, I fear that someone will submit a bad patch, and pull out the discrimination card when it gets rejected, forcing people to merge it lest they be removed for "discrimination". And once that happens, there's no stopping the avalanche, when everyone realizes you can remove obstacles by crying loud enough. And then the central pillar of the tech world comes crumbling down.

And yes, there are people behind the code. People ought to be respected. But people are not their creations, and if I say to my colleague "Your code is shit, get back to your workstation and fix it properly!" (or something to that effect - hyperboles apply), I make sure to point out to them that it is the code that is substandard, not them, and make sure they understand that no matter how much love and care they put into their works, they will never be equated to those works, and that criticism of those works is not criticism levelled at their person.

I really hope that I'm just being pessimistic and utterly, entirely wrong - but if I've had this idea, others must have had it too, and not all may be as restrained as I am.

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@ReinsBrain

ReinsBrain Sep 24, 2018

NO! People do that, not fucking code! These modest, commonsense guidelines are making sure unprofessional behavior doesn't detract from getting things done, and ensuring their leadership can take actions against damaging behavior as well. It has nothing to do with accepting bad code into the tree. This is so f-ing simple to understand, what is wrong with you people hahaha.

There - you admit it. These are rules to allow people with political(ly-correct) motivations to expunge others based on politics (of intersectionality) - NOT ON CODE.

a harassment-free experience for everyone, regardless of age, body size, disability, ethnicity, sex characteristics, gender identity and expression, level of experience, education, socio-economic status, nationality, personal appearance, race, religion, or sexual identity and orientation.

We're already seeing this applied against Tso. If you have ever voiced your opinion in past that disagrees with one of protected classes in the list, they will be coming for you - "the harrasser" - they will complain and wave this CoC until you are gone.

If you are a Christian who has ever objected to homosexuality, or a parent who has voiced concerns in the public sphere about fluid-gender and sex lessons in school to your seven-year-old, well then, you are marked for ouster. And if you don't score high enough on the intersectionality scale then no amount of apology or self-abasement will appease. We've seen it with James Damore at google - who stated the plainly obvious but was fired anyway for daring to expose an uncomfortable truth about one of the new protected classes.

This is nothing more than a weapon that can be used against people.

@ReinsBrain

ReinsBrain Sep 24, 2018

NO! People do that, not fucking code! These modest, commonsense guidelines are making sure unprofessional behavior doesn't detract from getting things done, and ensuring their leadership can take actions against damaging behavior as well. It has nothing to do with accepting bad code into the tree. This is so f-ing simple to understand, what is wrong with you people hahaha.

There - you admit it. These are rules to allow people with political(ly-correct) motivations to expunge others based on politics (of intersectionality) - NOT ON CODE.

a harassment-free experience for everyone, regardless of age, body size, disability, ethnicity, sex characteristics, gender identity and expression, level of experience, education, socio-economic status, nationality, personal appearance, race, religion, or sexual identity and orientation.

We're already seeing this applied against Tso. If you have ever voiced your opinion in past that disagrees with one of protected classes in the list, they will be coming for you - "the harrasser" - they will complain and wave this CoC until you are gone.

If you are a Christian who has ever objected to homosexuality, or a parent who has voiced concerns in the public sphere about fluid-gender and sex lessons in school to your seven-year-old, well then, you are marked for ouster. And if you don't score high enough on the intersectionality scale then no amount of apology or self-abasement will appease. We've seen it with James Damore at google - who stated the plainly obvious but was fired anyway for daring to expose an uncomfortable truth about one of the new protected classes.

This is nothing more than a weapon that can be used against people.

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@galileo-pkm

galileo-pkm Sep 25, 2018

It has happened before, the author behind the contributor-covenant.org:
opal/opal#941
These kind of policies have to be cut down before they take the hold, Linux community did fine for decades without this nonsense.

@galileo-pkm

galileo-pkm Sep 25, 2018

It has happened before, the author behind the contributor-covenant.org:
opal/opal#941
These kind of policies have to be cut down before they take the hold, Linux community did fine for decades without this nonsense.

include:
* Using welcoming and inclusive language
* Being respectful of differing viewpoints and experiences
* Gracefully accepting constructive criticism
* Focusing on what is best for the community
* Showing empathy towards other community members
Examples of unacceptable behavior by participants include:
* The use of sexualized language or imagery and unwelcome sexual attention or
advances
* Trolling, insulting/derogatory comments, and personal or political attacks
* Public or private harassment
* Publishing others’ private information, such as a physical or electronic
address, without explicit permission
* Other conduct which could reasonably be considered inappropriate in a
professional setting
Our Responsibilities
====================
Maintainers are responsible for clarifying the standards of acceptable behavior
and are expected to take appropriate and fair corrective action in response to
any instances of unacceptable behavior.
Maintainers have the right and responsibility to remove, edit, or reject
comments, commits, code, wiki edits, issues, and other contributions that are
not aligned to this Code of Conduct, or to ban temporarily or permanently any
contributor for other behaviors that they deem inappropriate, threatening,
offensive, or harmful.

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@penn5

penn5 Oct 12, 2018

42-50 are extremely dangerous, and, in my opinion, are more likely to lead to discrimination by Maintainers than Maintainers helping to prevent discrimination. Don't get me wrong; I'm all for having less discrimination (although I wasn't aware that there was any... shouting fits don't count) in the Kernel, but this seems a bit excessive.

@penn5

penn5 Oct 12, 2018

42-50 are extremely dangerous, and, in my opinion, are more likely to lead to discrimination by Maintainers than Maintainers helping to prevent discrimination. Don't get me wrong; I'm all for having less discrimination (although I wasn't aware that there was any... shouting fits don't count) in the Kernel, but this seems a bit excessive.

Scope
=====
This Code of Conduct applies both within project spaces and in public spaces
when an individual is representing the project or its community. Examples of
representing a project or community include using an official project e-mail
address, posting via an official social media account, or acting as an appointed
representative at an online or offline event. Representation of a project may be
further defined and clarified by project maintainers.
Enforcement
===========
Instances of abusive, harassing, or otherwise unacceptable behavior may be
reported by contacting the Technical Advisory Board (TAB) at
<tab@lists.linux-foundation.org>. All complaints will be reviewed and

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@penn5

penn5 Oct 12, 2018

Surely, it makes sense to let the community decide what is offensive, not a central board? After all, Linux is supposed to be open...

@penn5

penn5 Oct 12, 2018

Surely, it makes sense to let the community decide what is offensive, not a central board? After all, Linux is supposed to be open...

investigated and will result in a response that is deemed necessary and
appropriate to the circumstances. The TAB is obligated to maintain
confidentiality with regard to the reporter of an incident. Further details of
specific enforcement policies may be posted separately.
Maintainers who do not follow or enforce the Code of Conduct in good faith may
face temporary or permanent repercussions as determined by other members of the
project’s leadership.
Attribution
===========
This Code of Conduct is adapted from the Contributor Covenant, version 1.4,
available at https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/1/4/code-of-conduct.html

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@@ -20,7 +20,7 @@ Below are the essential guides that every developer should read.
:maxdepth: 1
howto
code-of-conflict
code-of-conduct

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@saurabh2804

saurabh2804 Sep 19, 2018

This is a step towards a direction that will eventually destroy Linux. In this code of conduct you have created a stick with which to push agendas and ideologies. You will be gentle at first but eventually turn into a bully, because now you can. One can always find a reason to be offended. Someone, somewhere can be offended by almost anything.

@saurabh2804

saurabh2804 Sep 19, 2018

This is a step towards a direction that will eventually destroy Linux. In this code of conduct you have created a stick with which to push agendas and ideologies. You will be gentle at first but eventually turn into a bully, because now you can. One can always find a reason to be offended. Someone, somewhere can be offended by almost anything.

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@j0hnwhyte

j0hnwhyte Sep 19, 2018

This move just seems like what every other big company is doing right now, correct me if I'm wrong. See stack overflow or github, they have very similar things. If you take the argument to extremes, there is always a "reason" to make noise, but it's basically useless. Also "towards a direction that will eventually destroy Linux" is a way to be catastrophic without actually improving anything, which is just toxic reasoning. Probably it's not a good idea to be alarmist without very strong arguments.

@j0hnwhyte

j0hnwhyte Sep 19, 2018

This move just seems like what every other big company is doing right now, correct me if I'm wrong. See stack overflow or github, they have very similar things. If you take the argument to extremes, there is always a "reason" to make noise, but it's basically useless. Also "towards a direction that will eventually destroy Linux" is a way to be catastrophic without actually improving anything, which is just toxic reasoning. Probably it's not a good idea to be alarmist without very strong arguments.

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@jeremyckahn

jeremyckahn Sep 19, 2018

This is an open source project. If you don't agree with how it is managed, you are free to fork it and manage it as you wish.

@jeremyckahn

jeremyckahn Sep 19, 2018

This is an open source project. If you don't agree with how it is managed, you are free to fork it and manage it as you wish.

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@mickrussom

mickrussom Sep 19, 2018

This is an open source project. If you don't agree with how it is managed, you are free to fork it and manage it as you wish.

This is a government hospital, get your treatment somewhere else if you don't agree how its managed.

Funny there was no "vote" on this change. Funny how anti-democratic stuff becomes when the minority want things a certain way most likely from corporate interests. (eg, vmware, fb, intel, etc). intel cant even properly make spectre/meltdown/etc fixes but they can make sure the Code Of Conduct allows those with low "level of experience" to have a say in how the kernel is written.

idiocracy is happening a lot faster than expected here.

@mickrussom

mickrussom Sep 19, 2018

This is an open source project. If you don't agree with how it is managed, you are free to fork it and manage it as you wish.

This is a government hospital, get your treatment somewhere else if you don't agree how its managed.

Funny there was no "vote" on this change. Funny how anti-democratic stuff becomes when the minority want things a certain way most likely from corporate interests. (eg, vmware, fb, intel, etc). intel cant even properly make spectre/meltdown/etc fixes but they can make sure the Code Of Conduct allows those with low "level of experience" to have a say in how the kernel is written.

idiocracy is happening a lot faster than expected here.

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@jeremyckahn

jeremyckahn Sep 19, 2018

People are often marginalized because they are not in the majority group, so a vote isn't likely to help them in situations like this. This is where pragmatic leadership like the kind @torvalds is demonstrating here is necessary to precipitate needed changes.

@jeremyckahn

jeremyckahn Sep 19, 2018

People are often marginalized because they are not in the majority group, so a vote isn't likely to help them in situations like this. This is where pragmatic leadership like the kind @torvalds is demonstrating here is necessary to precipitate needed changes.

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@mickrussom

mickrussom Sep 19, 2018

so nameless faceless accuser can whine to a board which can meet in secret and decide fates. and this is "open" source?

@mickrussom

mickrussom Sep 19, 2018

so nameless faceless accuser can whine to a board which can meet in secret and decide fates. and this is "open" source?

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@jeremyckahn

jeremyckahn Sep 19, 2018

Yes. The code is 100% freely open and available, so this is open source. The handling of sensitive and/or private interpersonal matters is a separate issue.

@jeremyckahn

jeremyckahn Sep 19, 2018

Yes. The code is 100% freely open and available, so this is open source. The handling of sensitive and/or private interpersonal matters is a separate issue.

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@regrev

regrev Sep 20, 2018

This is an open source project. If you don't agree with how it is managed, you are free to fork it and manage it as you wish.

Because surely the SJWs won't go after the forks and shame anyone having to do with them, right?

Then they can go after the GPL and modify it to ensure that 'no fascists are allowed to fork' or something of that nature. You know, for reasons of inclusivity.

@regrev

regrev Sep 20, 2018

This is an open source project. If you don't agree with how it is managed, you are free to fork it and manage it as you wish.

Because surely the SJWs won't go after the forks and shame anyone having to do with them, right?

Then they can go after the GPL and modify it to ensure that 'no fascists are allowed to fork' or something of that nature. You know, for reasons of inclusivity.

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@kigawas

kigawas Sep 20, 2018

What does SJW mean? Shit, junk and waste?

@kigawas

kigawas Sep 20, 2018

What does SJW mean? Shit, junk and waste?

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@gervasiocaj

gervasiocaj Sep 20, 2018

What does SJW mean? Shit, junk and waste?

Social justice warrior

@gervasiocaj

gervasiocaj Sep 20, 2018

What does SJW mean? Shit, junk and waste?

Social justice warrior

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@kigawas

kigawas Sep 21, 2018

What does SJW mean? Shit, junk and waste?

Social justice warrior

Looks like they are totally equal 😄

@kigawas

kigawas Sep 21, 2018

What does SJW mean? Shit, junk and waste?

Social justice warrior

Looks like they are totally equal 😄

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@ilikenwf

ilikenwf Sep 21, 2018

This is a step towards a direction that will eventually destroy Linux. In this code of conduct you have created a stick with which to push agendas and ideologies. You will be gentle at first but eventually turn into a bully, because now you can. One can always find a reason to be offended. Someone, somewhere can be offended by almost anything.

Interesting how Mr. Tso is already being attacked. He's been against Intel and Pottering both doing their own dangerous/bad hijinks in the past. Is this big CoC just a wrapped up package from the corporate members of the foundation trying to further penetrate the kernel?

@ilikenwf

ilikenwf Sep 21, 2018

This is a step towards a direction that will eventually destroy Linux. In this code of conduct you have created a stick with which to push agendas and ideologies. You will be gentle at first but eventually turn into a bully, because now you can. One can always find a reason to be offended. Someone, somewhere can be offended by almost anything.

Interesting how Mr. Tso is already being attacked. He's been against Intel and Pottering both doing their own dangerous/bad hijinks in the past. Is this big CoC just a wrapped up package from the corporate members of the foundation trying to further penetrate the kernel?

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@Chiiruno

Chiiruno Sep 21, 2018

Jeez, the puns just don't stop. 😆

@Chiiruno

Chiiruno Sep 21, 2018

Jeez, the puns just don't stop. 😆

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@survivor303

survivor303 Sep 24, 2018

This move just seems like what every other big company is doing right now, correct me if I'm wrong.

So what others doing bad, Linux need too? great.

@survivor303

survivor303 Sep 24, 2018

This move just seems like what every other big company is doing right now, correct me if I'm wrong.

So what others doing bad, Linux need too? great.

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@adamczykm

adamczykm Sep 24, 2018

$#% is going on with people these days? Why everybody is so insecure, it's not pride, it's insecurity. Especially about sex-related stuff.
When making contribution to the Kernel of Linux you are not important as a man, woman, or whatever you think you are in-between, your code is the thing that matters. Not your balls, nor ego.
C'mon guys...

@adamczykm

adamczykm Sep 24, 2018

$#% is going on with people these days? Why everybody is so insecure, it's not pride, it's insecurity. Especially about sex-related stuff.
When making contribution to the Kernel of Linux you are not important as a man, woman, or whatever you think you are in-between, your code is the thing that matters. Not your balls, nor ego.
C'mon guys...

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@Cyumus

Cyumus Sep 25, 2018

People are often marginalized because they are not in the majority group, so a vote isn't likely to help them in situations like this. This is where pragmatic leadership like the kind @torvalds is demonstrating here is necessary to precipitate needed changes.

You're right, I'm in the group of people that doesn't like tortilla with onion and I'm often marginalized. My vote as a onion-free tortilla worshipper has to be more valuable than the others due to being in a minority. Also, I'm in the group of people called Cyumus, and I'm a minority, only me, you're being Cyumuphobic if you dare to say that my vote is the same as yours, regardless if I know about Linux kernel or not, it doesn't matter, the important thing here is that I'm Cyumus, and I'm a minority.

@Cyumus

Cyumus Sep 25, 2018

People are often marginalized because they are not in the majority group, so a vote isn't likely to help them in situations like this. This is where pragmatic leadership like the kind @torvalds is demonstrating here is necessary to precipitate needed changes.

You're right, I'm in the group of people that doesn't like tortilla with onion and I'm often marginalized. My vote as a onion-free tortilla worshipper has to be more valuable than the others due to being in a minority. Also, I'm in the group of people called Cyumus, and I'm a minority, only me, you're being Cyumuphobic if you dare to say that my vote is the same as yours, regardless if I know about Linux kernel or not, it doesn't matter, the important thing here is that I'm Cyumus, and I'm a minority.

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@dannygoncalves

dannygoncalves Sep 25, 2018

So you guys are basically saying that a "healthy" working environment implies bad code? do you know what code reviews are for? I can tell you that your code is bad and maybe guide you in the correct way of writing code without making you feel like you are a piece of crap.

@dannygoncalves

dannygoncalves Sep 25, 2018

So you guys are basically saying that a "healthy" working environment implies bad code? do you know what code reviews are for? I can tell you that your code is bad and maybe guide you in the correct way of writing code without making you feel like you are a piece of crap.

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@Belgorodsky

Belgorodsky Sep 26, 2018

What about democracy? F%ck this minority things

@Belgorodsky

Belgorodsky Sep 26, 2018

What about democracy? F%ck this minority things

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@CandyAngel

CandyAngel Sep 26, 2018

@dannygoncalves

I can tell you that your code is bad and maybe guide you in the correct way of writing code without making you feel like you are a piece of crap.

You may think that but you can't.
Being told (or finding out) my code isn't perfect will always make me feel "like [I am] a piece of crap".

@CandyAngel

CandyAngel Sep 26, 2018

@dannygoncalves

I can tell you that your code is bad and maybe guide you in the correct way of writing code without making you feel like you are a piece of crap.

You may think that but you can't.
Being told (or finding out) my code isn't perfect will always make me feel "like [I am] a piece of crap".

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@thunderbird89

thunderbird89 Sep 26, 2018

So you guys are basically saying that a "healthy" working environment implies bad code? do you know what code reviews are for? I can tell you that your code is bad and maybe guide you in the correct way of writing code without making you feel like you are a piece of crap.

Problem is, people tend to become invested in their works, and any criticism levelled at those works feels like an attack, even when it's not intended to be. This is just a part of the human condition, I guess, and it's an integral part of putting anything you make out into the public, whether it be a piece of code, a statue, or a poem. Someone is bound to say bad things about it (not necessarily you, though!) and you will feel bad about it, even though it wasn't directed at you.

@thunderbird89

thunderbird89 Sep 26, 2018

So you guys are basically saying that a "healthy" working environment implies bad code? do you know what code reviews are for? I can tell you that your code is bad and maybe guide you in the correct way of writing code without making you feel like you are a piece of crap.

Problem is, people tend to become invested in their works, and any criticism levelled at those works feels like an attack, even when it's not intended to be. This is just a part of the human condition, I guess, and it's an integral part of putting anything you make out into the public, whether it be a piece of code, a statue, or a poem. Someone is bound to say bad things about it (not necessarily you, though!) and you will feel bad about it, even though it wasn't directed at you.

development-process
submitting-patches
coding-style

333 comments on commit 8a104f8

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CoralineAda Sep 27, 2018

I've been watching this very heated debate for days now. I have some things to say.

  • My primary goal is to open the doors to success in tech through the gateway of open source by making it an option for as many people as possible. Why this is a debatable point, a point of contention, I don't know: but in the current climate, it makes my position political.

  • Contributor Covenant is a political document insofar as it prohibits discrimination, and specifically discrimination against the most marginalized and vulnerable members of the tech community. It is a statement against the status quo, which situation does not serve the needs of all people who have something positive to contribute.

  • I am critical of meritocracy, and I am vocal in my criticism. Not so much the concept— the execution. If tech truly is a meritocracy, then why are there so few women and people of color at the top of the hierarchy? Is it really because white men are the best programmers in the world, or are there cultural factors and explicit or implicit biases at play?

  • If you truly believe that meritocracy is about valuing the contribution, regardless of the person who made it, why are there personal attacks being made against me here? How are they even relevant? How are my politics relevant?

  • No one can seriously believe that an infraction of code of conduct will result in an instant ban hammer. Maintainers want healthy communities, filled with brilliant and passionate contributors who get along well and are good communicators and collaborators. They should be trusted to investigate complaints and, if necessary, mete out consequences that are proportional to the offense.

  • A code of conduct does not grant any sort of authority to anyone outside the circle of maintainers. So-called "SJWs" are not the arbiters of the code of conduct, the project maintainers are. And guess what? Even without a code of conduct, project maintainers are within their rights to ARBITRARILY eject people from the community. Has this ever happened? Probably not. And it's even less likely to happen now that there is a SOCIAL CONTRACT between the maintainers and the members of the community.

  • "Opalgate" has been mentioned a few times. I have serious regrets and misgivings about what I did in that situation. I have publicly apologized to both Elia and the project maintainer. And I learned my lesson: since then I have kept out of the politics of projects adopting codes of conduct, leaving it to the maintainers to decide what is best for their communities (as it should be). If you want to know both sides of the opal gate story, you should read my blog post about it: https://where.coraline.codes/blog/on-opalgate/

  • It's true that I have made a number of critical statements about cis white males. That's because cis white males dominate the tech industry. To make progress, we need to critically examine the behavior of the majority. That doesn't mean that I hate men, hate white people, or hate anyone. My critique is simply of the majority, which happens to be white and male.

  • I can come across as angry on Twitter. That's my right. As a marginalized person in tech— a woman, transgender, with mental health issues, and significantly older than most of my peers— I face a lot of discrimination. I am a constant target of harassment, including doxing and death threats. A mentorship program that I announced last week was flooded with nearly 200k abusive applications including hate speech, homophobic, transphobic, and racist statements. Contact forms on my various websites have received thousands of abusive messages. So I have plenty to be angry about, and no one can or should police my emotions. They are mine and mine alone. If I want to "throw a tantrum" I am free to do so, within the rules and guidelines of the platform that I am using.

Thanks for listening, and good luck with your hopefully more constructive than not discussions around the issue of the code of conduct.

CoralineAda replied Sep 27, 2018

I've been watching this very heated debate for days now. I have some things to say.

  • My primary goal is to open the doors to success in tech through the gateway of open source by making it an option for as many people as possible. Why this is a debatable point, a point of contention, I don't know: but in the current climate, it makes my position political.

  • Contributor Covenant is a political document insofar as it prohibits discrimination, and specifically discrimination against the most marginalized and vulnerable members of the tech community. It is a statement against the status quo, which situation does not serve the needs of all people who have something positive to contribute.

  • I am critical of meritocracy, and I am vocal in my criticism. Not so much the concept— the execution. If tech truly is a meritocracy, then why are there so few women and people of color at the top of the hierarchy? Is it really because white men are the best programmers in the world, or are there cultural factors and explicit or implicit biases at play?

  • If you truly believe that meritocracy is about valuing the contribution, regardless of the person who made it, why are there personal attacks being made against me here? How are they even relevant? How are my politics relevant?

  • No one can seriously believe that an infraction of code of conduct will result in an instant ban hammer. Maintainers want healthy communities, filled with brilliant and passionate contributors who get along well and are good communicators and collaborators. They should be trusted to investigate complaints and, if necessary, mete out consequences that are proportional to the offense.

  • A code of conduct does not grant any sort of authority to anyone outside the circle of maintainers. So-called "SJWs" are not the arbiters of the code of conduct, the project maintainers are. And guess what? Even without a code of conduct, project maintainers are within their rights to ARBITRARILY eject people from the community. Has this ever happened? Probably not. And it's even less likely to happen now that there is a SOCIAL CONTRACT between the maintainers and the members of the community.

  • "Opalgate" has been mentioned a few times. I have serious regrets and misgivings about what I did in that situation. I have publicly apologized to both Elia and the project maintainer. And I learned my lesson: since then I have kept out of the politics of projects adopting codes of conduct, leaving it to the maintainers to decide what is best for their communities (as it should be). If you want to know both sides of the opal gate story, you should read my blog post about it: https://where.coraline.codes/blog/on-opalgate/

  • It's true that I have made a number of critical statements about cis white males. That's because cis white males dominate the tech industry. To make progress, we need to critically examine the behavior of the majority. That doesn't mean that I hate men, hate white people, or hate anyone. My critique is simply of the majority, which happens to be white and male.

  • I can come across as angry on Twitter. That's my right. As a marginalized person in tech— a woman, transgender, with mental health issues, and significantly older than most of my peers— I face a lot of discrimination. I am a constant target of harassment, including doxing and death threats. A mentorship program that I announced last week was flooded with nearly 200k abusive applications including hate speech, homophobic, transphobic, and racist statements. Contact forms on my various websites have received thousands of abusive messages. So I have plenty to be angry about, and no one can or should police my emotions. They are mine and mine alone. If I want to "throw a tantrum" I am free to do so, within the rules and guidelines of the platform that I am using.

Thanks for listening, and good luck with your hopefully more constructive than not discussions around the issue of the code of conduct.

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ChrisCates Sep 27, 2018

@CoralineAda

The use of the term "cis" and "het" are degrading and condescending...
I understand you feel marginalized... But, I suggest avoid using slurs.

I'm also glad you are able to recognize the problems in regards to previous actions...

However, recently about a month ago, there was a public outburst on Twitter in regards to this same issue... I understand and respect the mental issues you may be facing... But, again, the behavior evoked is questionable considering how you have been pushing the political agenda in regards to the Covenant...

The community can only hope that abuse of said policies are minimal in the coming future...

ChrisCates replied Sep 27, 2018

@CoralineAda

The use of the term "cis" and "het" are degrading and condescending...
I understand you feel marginalized... But, I suggest avoid using slurs.

I'm also glad you are able to recognize the problems in regards to previous actions...

However, recently about a month ago, there was a public outburst on Twitter in regards to this same issue... I understand and respect the mental issues you may be facing... But, again, the behavior evoked is questionable considering how you have been pushing the political agenda in regards to the Covenant...

The community can only hope that abuse of said policies are minimal in the coming future...

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TundraFizz Sep 27, 2018

  • My primary goal is to open the doors to success in tech through the gateway of open source by making it an option for as many people as possible. Why this is a debatable point, a point of contention, I don't know: but in the current climate, it makes my position political.

It's debatable because you're trying to inject anything else besides merit into who should help develop Linux, which is literally one of the most important pieces of software on this planet.

  • Contributor Covenant is a political document insofar as it prohibits discrimination, and specifically discrimination against the most marginalized and vulnerable members of the tech community. It is a statement against the status quo, which situation does not serve the needs of all people who have something positive to contribute.
  • It's true that I have made a number of critical statements about cis white males. That's because cis white males dominate the tech industry...

Nobody cares what your sex, race, etc. is; the only thing that's important is the quality of code. I've already made a statement on minorities and code here: https://i.imgur.com/hqSvg5w.png If you think you're being "marginalized", then I advise you to study, learn, get good and produce projects that show you indeed know how to engineer software. If you have the skills, you will get hired.

  • I am critical of meritocracy, and I am vocal in my criticism. Not so much the concept— the execution. If tech truly is a meritocracy, then why are there so few women and people of color at the top of the hierarchy?

The reason why so few woman and people of color are at the top is because white males make up the vast majority of software engineers. It's simple math.

  • If you truly believe that meritocracy is about valuing the contribution, regardless of the person who made it, why are there personal attacks being made against me here? How are they even relevant? How are my politics relevant?

While the personal attacks against you yourself isn't relevant, the personal attacks against your ideas are in fact very relevant.

  • No one can seriously believe that an infraction of code of conduct will result in an instant ban hammer.
  • A code of conduct does not grant any sort of authority to anyone outside the circle of maintainers. So-called "SJWs" are not the arbiters of the code of conduct, the project maintainers are. And guess what? Even without a code of conduct, project maintainers are within their rights to ARBITRARILY eject people from the community. Has this ever happened? Probably not. And it's even less likely to happen now that there is a SOCIAL CONTRACT between the maintainers and the members of the community.

People have already been discussing cases in this very commit that show otherwise. There are plenty of people out there that want to eject people from projects just because they may have said something, or hold certain thoughts or ideas that they themselves don't like.

  • "Opalgate" has been mentioned a few times. I have serious regrets and misgivings about what I did in that situation

I bet.

TundraFizz replied Sep 27, 2018

  • My primary goal is to open the doors to success in tech through the gateway of open source by making it an option for as many people as possible. Why this is a debatable point, a point of contention, I don't know: but in the current climate, it makes my position political.

It's debatable because you're trying to inject anything else besides merit into who should help develop Linux, which is literally one of the most important pieces of software on this planet.

  • Contributor Covenant is a political document insofar as it prohibits discrimination, and specifically discrimination against the most marginalized and vulnerable members of the tech community. It is a statement against the status quo, which situation does not serve the needs of all people who have something positive to contribute.
  • It's true that I have made a number of critical statements about cis white males. That's because cis white males dominate the tech industry...

Nobody cares what your sex, race, etc. is; the only thing that's important is the quality of code. I've already made a statement on minorities and code here: https://i.imgur.com/hqSvg5w.png If you think you're being "marginalized", then I advise you to study, learn, get good and produce projects that show you indeed know how to engineer software. If you have the skills, you will get hired.

  • I am critical of meritocracy, and I am vocal in my criticism. Not so much the concept— the execution. If tech truly is a meritocracy, then why are there so few women and people of color at the top of the hierarchy?

The reason why so few woman and people of color are at the top is because white males make up the vast majority of software engineers. It's simple math.

  • If you truly believe that meritocracy is about valuing the contribution, regardless of the person who made it, why are there personal attacks being made against me here? How are they even relevant? How are my politics relevant?

While the personal attacks against you yourself isn't relevant, the personal attacks against your ideas are in fact very relevant.

  • No one can seriously believe that an infraction of code of conduct will result in an instant ban hammer.
  • A code of conduct does not grant any sort of authority to anyone outside the circle of maintainers. So-called "SJWs" are not the arbiters of the code of conduct, the project maintainers are. And guess what? Even without a code of conduct, project maintainers are within their rights to ARBITRARILY eject people from the community. Has this ever happened? Probably not. And it's even less likely to happen now that there is a SOCIAL CONTRACT between the maintainers and the members of the community.

People have already been discussing cases in this very commit that show otherwise. There are plenty of people out there that want to eject people from projects just because they may have said something, or hold certain thoughts or ideas that they themselves don't like.

  • "Opalgate" has been mentioned a few times. I have serious regrets and misgivings about what I did in that situation

I bet.

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GoLD-ReaVeR Sep 28, 2018

I've been watching this very heated debate for days now. I have some things to say.

  • My primary goal is to open the doors to success in tech through the gateway of open source by making it an option for as many people as possible. Why this is a debatable point, a point of contention, I don't know: but in the current climate, it makes my position political.

You're not opening any doors but closing them instead. This has been the long standing issue with your efforts. By implementing a CoC you grant people victimhood status that gives them power over other people. Often enough the victomhood turns out to be a lie and power was granted that should never have been given. As you could see with the twitter shitstorm that came after calling out several board members for their 'wrongdoings' and asking for Linus' salary to be taken away. This is always a pattern with the CoC and the people claiming victimhood never even touched this project, not in a development manner, not in a end-user manner: They are not Linux users and/or they never referenced this project in any capacity.

  • Contributor Covenant is a political document insofar as it prohibits discrimination, and specifically discrimination against the most marginalized and vulnerable members of the tech community. It is a statement against the status quo, which situation does not serve the needs of all people who have something positive to contribute.

So lets take this apart a little. Discrimination is the act of differentiating objects (and by extension subjects) based on their characteristics. It stops us from treating a lion like a fly for example and it determines what the road is and what the sidewalk is. In short, you cannot prohibit discrimination and thus the claim you're making is a fallacy. Then lets see what were the conditions for discrimination: Linus was the head of the project and he did most of his work through the internet and quite probably without a webcam. The Linux kernel has 100s if not 1000s of contributers... do you think he face checked them all? See if they are dykes or niggers? Maybe he asked them if they knew who their daddy was but this is highly unlikely. So clearly, the only conditions he would judge on are the conditions that are easily accessible: quality of code. So it doesn't matter whether the person is black, yellow, pink or any other color and thus these groups were not marginalized.

As much as anyone hates 'status quo's being around, they are generally there for a reason. I'm not saying they should never be tested, but you should not try to disrupt the status quo for the sake of disrupting them. The Linux kernel development has now been put into turmoil just because the status quo within this project has been disrupted. And without the project leaders working and functioning properly, no progress can be made.

  • I am critical of meritocracy, and I am vocal in my criticism. Not so much the concept— the execution. If tech truly is a meritocracy, then why are there so few women and people of color at the top of the hierarchy? Is it really because white men are the best programmers in the world, or are there cultural factors and explicit or implicit biases at play?

Someone else already answered this, but I'll give my answer: true meritocracy is merely an ideal. This project has always and will always embody that notion. The way GNU/Linux has worked over the years is based on that ideal. The execution has been ruthless quite frankly, it didn't bother to look at whoever was developing the code. This way some of the best code in Linux's history has been written by insane criminals; they just happened to have the best code for the job.

If you really feel like helping the people you feel are marginalized, this project is not the place. Software development as a whole is not the place, especially the open source community who for the most part are completely anonymous save for their internet handle. If you want to help these people, you should focus on getting them better education and make sure they spend less time in gender studies or shooting eachother.

  • If you truly believe that meritocracy is about valuing the contribution, regardless of the person who made it, why are there personal attacks being made against me here? How are they even relevant? How are my politics relevant?

What did you contribute? As far as I can tell, your primary contribution is the hamstringing of every project that you come across with your CoC that wouldn't hold up in any court of law around the world. Not only is your CoC poorly written, it's purposefully divisive by pitting 'marginalized' people against the rest by being extremely vague about the definition of the rules and the subsequent demand from activists for arbitrary enforcement of said vague rules.

  • No one can seriously believe that an infraction of code of conduct will result in an instant ban hammer. Maintainers want healthy communities, filled with brilliant and passionate contributors who get along well and are good communicators and collaborators. They should be trusted to investigate complaints and, if necessary, mete out consequences that are proportional to the offense.

There isn't a single thing more triggering to a regular person than being told that they are an asshole because some of their contribution is open to se xistual or racistual interpretation. It will make them angry and it will case them to go on the defensive. That harms trust between developers and will destroy the fun for most people developing in this project, more so than Linus' tirades.

  • A code of conduct does not grant any sort of authority to anyone outside the circle of maintainers. So-called "SJWs" are not the arbiters of the code of conduct, the project maintainers are. And guess what? Even without a code of conduct, project maintainers are within their rights to ARBITRARILY eject people from the community. Has this ever happened? Probably not. And it's even less likely to happen now that there is a SOCIAL CONTRACT between the maintainers and the members of the community.

Except the maintainers are often receiving social pressure from non-contributors. This has been the recurring trend. And if they are contributors they tend to be performing poorly within the scope of said project. Often enough these same people will throw a fit when they get outed as harassers with proper evidence (that would uphold in a court of law) and subsequently get kicked from the project.

  • "Opalgate" has been mentioned a few times. I have serious regrets and misgivings about what I did in that situation. I have publicly apologized to both Elia and the project maintainer. And I learned my lesson: since then I have kept out of the politics of projects adopting codes of conduct, leaving it to the maintainers to decide what is best for their communities (as it should be). If you want to know both sides of the opal gate story, you should read my blog post about it: https://where.coraline.codes/blog/on-opalgate/

You've triggered a chain of events there is no coming back from. Just because you quit doesn't mean everyone else has. You'll have to denounce the CC if anything.

  • It's true that I have made a number of critical statements about cis white males. That's because cis white males dominate the tech industry. To make progress, we need to critically examine the behavior of the majority. That doesn't mean that I hate men, hate white people, or hate anyone. My critique is simply of the majority, which happens to be white and male.

And this is where everything comes to light... you don't like that most of the western world participate in western projects because the foreign aid funded children in Africa can't write proper code. As said before, skincolor doesn't matter for software development inside the open source community. These people have a better chance here if anything; since there is no hiring process where people get identified. And thus, all the inclusion of the CoC did was bring racism, sexism and politics, issues that previously were not there, into this project.

  • I can come across as angry on Twitter. That's my right. As a marginalized person in tech— a woman, transgender, with mental health issues, and significantly older than most of my peers— I face a lot of discrimination. I am a constant target of harassment, including doxing and death threats. A mentorship program that I announced last week was flooded with nearly 200k abusive applications including hate speech, homophobic, transphobic, and racist statements. Contact forms on my various websites have received thousands of abusive messages. So I have plenty to be angry about, and no one can or should police my emotions. They are mine and mine alone. If I want to "throw a tantrum" I am free to do so, within the rules and guidelines of the platform that I am using.

So if I put this reply on kotakuinaction and I ask the people there about you doxing people, how many examples do you think they can come up with? Just give me some ballpark numbers. This paragraph is just you claiming your victimhood again; from what I read most of it is self inflicted. If you cannot keep a rational mind in software development you don't belong here. There's an outside world that can be much more enjoyable than random people behind a computer screen. But instead you decide to mutilate your genitals and throw a tantrum over here. And not just over here, you throw it everywhere. You've been getting on so many people's bad sides that there's a sizeable group actively trying to troll you and because you took the bait and are bringing it up here you made sure they succeeded.

But in all honesty, I suppose you're fine with that, because without being a victim, there's just nothing that remains of you as a person.

Thanks for listening, and good luck with your hopefully more constructive than not discussions around the issue of the code of conduct.

There's nothing constructive to be had. The CoC is in conflict with the aims of this project and it will evict marginalized people (such as autists, dyslexic, aspergers, etc.) that may not be as socially capable but are great otherwise out of this project.

GoLD-ReaVeR replied Sep 28, 2018

I've been watching this very heated debate for days now. I have some things to say.

  • My primary goal is to open the doors to success in tech through the gateway of open source by making it an option for as many people as possible. Why this is a debatable point, a point of contention, I don't know: but in the current climate, it makes my position political.

You're not opening any doors but closing them instead. This has been the long standing issue with your efforts. By implementing a CoC you grant people victimhood status that gives them power over other people. Often enough the victomhood turns out to be a lie and power was granted that should never have been given. As you could see with the twitter shitstorm that came after calling out several board members for their 'wrongdoings' and asking for Linus' salary to be taken away. This is always a pattern with the CoC and the people claiming victimhood never even touched this project, not in a development manner, not in a end-user manner: They are not Linux users and/or they never referenced this project in any capacity.

  • Contributor Covenant is a political document insofar as it prohibits discrimination, and specifically discrimination against the most marginalized and vulnerable members of the tech community. It is a statement against the status quo, which situation does not serve the needs of all people who have something positive to contribute.

So lets take this apart a little. Discrimination is the act of differentiating objects (and by extension subjects) based on their characteristics. It stops us from treating a lion like a fly for example and it determines what the road is and what the sidewalk is. In short, you cannot prohibit discrimination and thus the claim you're making is a fallacy. Then lets see what were the conditions for discrimination: Linus was the head of the project and he did most of his work through the internet and quite probably without a webcam. The Linux kernel has 100s if not 1000s of contributers... do you think he face checked them all? See if they are dykes or niggers? Maybe he asked them if they knew who their daddy was but this is highly unlikely. So clearly, the only conditions he would judge on are the conditions that are easily accessible: quality of code. So it doesn't matter whether the person is black, yellow, pink or any other color and thus these groups were not marginalized.

As much as anyone hates 'status quo's being around, they are generally there for a reason. I'm not saying they should never be tested, but you should not try to disrupt the status quo for the sake of disrupting them. The Linux kernel development has now been put into turmoil just because the status quo within this project has been disrupted. And without the project leaders working and functioning properly, no progress can be made.

  • I am critical of meritocracy, and I am vocal in my criticism. Not so much the concept— the execution. If tech truly is a meritocracy, then why are there so few women and people of color at the top of the hierarchy? Is it really because white men are the best programmers in the world, or are there cultural factors and explicit or implicit biases at play?

Someone else already answered this, but I'll give my answer: true meritocracy is merely an ideal. This project has always and will always embody that notion. The way GNU/Linux has worked over the years is based on that ideal. The execution has been ruthless quite frankly, it didn't bother to look at whoever was developing the code. This way some of the best code in Linux's history has been written by insane criminals; they just happened to have the best code for the job.

If you really feel like helping the people you feel are marginalized, this project is not the place. Software development as a whole is not the place, especially the open source community who for the most part are completely anonymous save for their internet handle. If you want to help these people, you should focus on getting them better education and make sure they spend less time in gender studies or shooting eachother.

  • If you truly believe that meritocracy is about valuing the contribution, regardless of the person who made it, why are there personal attacks being made against me here? How are they even relevant? How are my politics relevant?

What did you contribute? As far as I can tell, your primary contribution is the hamstringing of every project that you come across with your CoC that wouldn't hold up in any court of law around the world. Not only is your CoC poorly written, it's purposefully divisive by pitting 'marginalized' people against the rest by being extremely vague about the definition of the rules and the subsequent demand from activists for arbitrary enforcement of said vague rules.

  • No one can seriously believe that an infraction of code of conduct will result in an instant ban hammer. Maintainers want healthy communities, filled with brilliant and passionate contributors who get along well and are good communicators and collaborators. They should be trusted to investigate complaints and, if necessary, mete out consequences that are proportional to the offense.

There isn't a single thing more triggering to a regular person than being told that they are an asshole because some of their contribution is open to se xistual or racistual interpretation. It will make them angry and it will case them to go on the defensive. That harms trust between developers and will destroy the fun for most people developing in this project, more so than Linus' tirades.

  • A code of conduct does not grant any sort of authority to anyone outside the circle of maintainers. So-called "SJWs" are not the arbiters of the code of conduct, the project maintainers are. And guess what? Even without a code of conduct, project maintainers are within their rights to ARBITRARILY eject people from the community. Has this ever happened? Probably not. And it's even less likely to happen now that there is a SOCIAL CONTRACT between the maintainers and the members of the community.

Except the maintainers are often receiving social pressure from non-contributors. This has been the recurring trend. And if they are contributors they tend to be performing poorly within the scope of said project. Often enough these same people will throw a fit when they get outed as harassers with proper evidence (that would uphold in a court of law) and subsequently get kicked from the project.

  • "Opalgate" has been mentioned a few times. I have serious regrets and misgivings about what I did in that situation. I have publicly apologized to both Elia and the project maintainer. And I learned my lesson: since then I have kept out of the politics of projects adopting codes of conduct, leaving it to the maintainers to decide what is best for their communities (as it should be). If you want to know both sides of the opal gate story, you should read my blog post about it: https://where.coraline.codes/blog/on-opalgate/

You've triggered a chain of events there is no coming back from. Just because you quit doesn't mean everyone else has. You'll have to denounce the CC if anything.

  • It's true that I have made a number of critical statements about cis white males. That's because cis white males dominate the tech industry. To make progress, we need to critically examine the behavior of the majority. That doesn't mean that I hate men, hate white people, or hate anyone. My critique is simply of the majority, which happens to be white and male.

And this is where everything comes to light... you don't like that most of the western world participate in western projects because the foreign aid funded children in Africa can't write proper code. As said before, skincolor doesn't matter for software development inside the open source community. These people have a better chance here if anything; since there is no hiring process where people get identified. And thus, all the inclusion of the CoC did was bring racism, sexism and politics, issues that previously were not there, into this project.

  • I can come across as angry on Twitter. That's my right. As a marginalized person in tech— a woman, transgender, with mental health issues, and significantly older than most of my peers— I face a lot of discrimination. I am a constant target of harassment, including doxing and death threats. A mentorship program that I announced last week was flooded with nearly 200k abusive applications including hate speech, homophobic, transphobic, and racist statements. Contact forms on my various websites have received thousands of abusive messages. So I have plenty to be angry about, and no one can or should police my emotions. They are mine and mine alone. If I want to "throw a tantrum" I am free to do so, within the rules and guidelines of the platform that I am using.

So if I put this reply on kotakuinaction and I ask the people there about you doxing people, how many examples do you think they can come up with? Just give me some ballpark numbers. This paragraph is just you claiming your victimhood again; from what I read most of it is self inflicted. If you cannot keep a rational mind in software development you don't belong here. There's an outside world that can be much more enjoyable than random people behind a computer screen. But instead you decide to mutilate your genitals and throw a tantrum over here. And not just over here, you throw it everywhere. You've been getting on so many people's bad sides that there's a sizeable group actively trying to troll you and because you took the bait and are bringing it up here you made sure they succeeded.

But in all honesty, I suppose you're fine with that, because without being a victim, there's just nothing that remains of you as a person.

Thanks for listening, and good luck with your hopefully more constructive than not discussions around the issue of the code of conduct.

There's nothing constructive to be had. The CoC is in conflict with the aims of this project and it will evict marginalized people (such as autists, dyslexic, aspergers, etc.) that may not be as socially capable but are great otherwise out of this project.

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sorin-ionescu Sep 28, 2018

One of the laws of nature many fail to observe is that the have nots always come for what the haves have—who fail to defend themselves having not prepared for this eventuality—and the have nots take over. They temporarily become haves but are incompetent in their new position and quickly destroy what the previous owners built only to return to their previous station of have nots. Subsequently, the cycle repeats, for they are locusts .

The most important word in a human language, in this case, English, one ought to learn is NO followed by its dutiful employment.

Say NO debate.

Say NO to the issue; close it.

Say NO to the malcontent's presence; ban him/she/it.

File for a restraining order.

Stand your ground.

Protect your work.

Protect your life.

Protect your family.

Protect your nation.

Protect your country.

Protect your future.

When a neo-communist arrives to demand tribute, just say NO!

sorin-ionescu replied Sep 28, 2018

One of the laws of nature many fail to observe is that the have nots always come for what the haves have—who fail to defend themselves having not prepared for this eventuality—and the have nots take over. They temporarily become haves but are incompetent in their new position and quickly destroy what the previous owners built only to return to their previous station of have nots. Subsequently, the cycle repeats, for they are locusts .

The most important word in a human language, in this case, English, one ought to learn is NO followed by its dutiful employment.

Say NO debate.

Say NO to the issue; close it.

Say NO to the malcontent's presence; ban him/she/it.

File for a restraining order.

Stand your ground.

Protect your work.

Protect your life.

Protect your family.

Protect your nation.

Protect your country.

Protect your future.

When a neo-communist arrives to demand tribute, just say NO!

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tluanga34 Sep 28, 2018

Is the new COC more important than the integrity of this awesome community?

tluanga34 replied Sep 28, 2018

Is the new COC more important than the integrity of this awesome community?

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Radtoo Sep 28, 2018

@CoralineAda

I can come across as angry on Twitter. That's my right.

That really just makes this CoC something so bad, even its own creator cannot nearly live by it for relatively short periods of time.

As a marginalized person in tech— a woman, transgender, with mental health issues, and significantly older than most of my peers

Everyone has many circumstances and issues. I don't think you're special in that -despite the specific circumstances and issues obviously being yours alone.
BTW, almost everyone would predictably get extremely rough words if we stuck our heads out on the internet or society, This isn't great, but - no, it's not just you and any group that you can form around your circumstances and issues. Society is just has crazy members. The most "cis white male" [I dislike the wording and grouping that implies] successful CEO will likely get death threats for reading Wikipedia alphabetically on Youtube.

I do however note you seem to pretty explicitly recognize the communicative plus healing [or whatever you want to call it] function of rough language and using it to fight for your point / fighting back against what is wrong verbally. Why does your CoC not say this rough language is a to a very large degree okay thing to do so, rather than "unacceptable behaviour"?

why are there so few women and people of color at the top of the hierarchy?

Hypothesis: That might be quite strongly related to the reason most around the bottom of the hierarchy in tech development teams also seem to be white men for more European/US companies? And mostly Han Chinese for Chinese companies and most of the Chinese language open source teams, same as their leadership.

Radtoo replied Sep 28, 2018

@CoralineAda

I can come across as angry on Twitter. That's my right.

That really just makes this CoC something so bad, even its own creator cannot nearly live by it for relatively short periods of time.

As a marginalized person in tech— a woman, transgender, with mental health issues, and significantly older than most of my peers

Everyone has many circumstances and issues. I don't think you're special in that -despite the specific circumstances and issues obviously being yours alone.
BTW, almost everyone would predictably get extremely rough words if we stuck our heads out on the internet or society, This isn't great, but - no, it's not just you and any group that you can form around your circumstances and issues. Society is just has crazy members. The most "cis white male" [I dislike the wording and grouping that implies] successful CEO will likely get death threats for reading Wikipedia alphabetically on Youtube.

I do however note you seem to pretty explicitly recognize the communicative plus healing [or whatever you want to call it] function of rough language and using it to fight for your point / fighting back against what is wrong verbally. Why does your CoC not say this rough language is a to a very large degree okay thing to do so, rather than "unacceptable behaviour"?

why are there so few women and people of color at the top of the hierarchy?

Hypothesis: That might be quite strongly related to the reason most around the bottom of the hierarchy in tech development teams also seem to be white men for more European/US companies? And mostly Han Chinese for Chinese companies and most of the Chinese language open source teams, same as their leadership.

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ChrisCates Sep 28, 2018

@Radtoo, my major concern is the inability to recognize the problems in regards to behavior... Some tweetstorms pose some serious concern for the tech community as a whole.

I am vouching for a diverse group of people... However, to generalize "cis het white men" when majority of the community is composed of them does not present a good case for the Covenant, and makes other trans people look bad. That isn't to say that diversity should be neglected... But, merely, let's focus on writing Excellent Code... And not worry about who or what they identify as.

This is what The Code of Conflict did... So I am a bit concerned in regards to the political agenda being pushed here.

ChrisCates replied Sep 28, 2018

@Radtoo, my major concern is the inability to recognize the problems in regards to behavior... Some tweetstorms pose some serious concern for the tech community as a whole.

I am vouching for a diverse group of people... However, to generalize "cis het white men" when majority of the community is composed of them does not present a good case for the Covenant, and makes other trans people look bad. That isn't to say that diversity should be neglected... But, merely, let's focus on writing Excellent Code... And not worry about who or what they identify as.

This is what The Code of Conflict did... So I am a bit concerned in regards to the political agenda being pushed here.

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rolf-d2i Sep 28, 2018

I've been watching this very heated debate for days now. I have some things to say.
...

The only thing you have managed to create is more work for anyone who is trying to run a secure IT system that is secure against hacking attempts and criminal activities. There are lot of people around the world who are victims of fraud and other crime over the internet and with your CoC it is now impossible to know if the kernel is compromised by 'special' interests (which some of them are very violent and commit fraud against linux users
).
The only type of person I know who would defend this CoC in your position is a narcissist, are you a narcissist CoralineAda?

rolf-d2i replied Sep 28, 2018

I've been watching this very heated debate for days now. I have some things to say.
...

The only thing you have managed to create is more work for anyone who is trying to run a secure IT system that is secure against hacking attempts and criminal activities. There are lot of people around the world who are victims of fraud and other crime over the internet and with your CoC it is now impossible to know if the kernel is compromised by 'special' interests (which some of them are very violent and commit fraud against linux users
).
The only type of person I know who would defend this CoC in your position is a narcissist, are you a narcissist CoralineAda?

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rudiservo Sep 28, 2018

@CoralineAda

you cannot possibly say it is within your right to shitstorm on twitter when you try and bring down other people professionally by having a different opinion, that's what's called a DOUBLE STANDARD! It's hypocritical to say the least and a complete lack of leadership, you should step down from the covenant on that basis alone by your own rules, not mine.

Also when you say cis white men, when well above 70% of the tech industry is composed by white men, in Europe that most of the population is white and most people that take IT and Tech are men, I mean what should I do?
Fire every white men I have working for me?
They should be ashamed of themselves for being good at a job that there is literally no one else that can take it?
Should I be ashamed for being white and male in tech industry when I actually had study or work 12 hours a day in order to get to where I am? Shouldn't I have a trauma now that literally someone that is suppose to be techsavy and have some leadership that my effort is worth shit because I am not different. Should I curl up in a ball and cry?

How do you want me to respect you if you do not respect me!

How can people not be offended by your CoC, that is based on grounds that any one that is a white male is a racist misogynist asshole... isn't that a lack of empathy and total disregard for actual number of people in IT that are White men in US/Europe, while in Japan is Japanese, in China, Chinese, in Africa let me guess, but those are not racist misogynist cis, just white males are... Double Standard anyone?!

Your are trying to push an unethical and unjust political agenda, when the only thing anyone should be pushing is "be civil and have common sense", if someone has a problem they should talk it out NOT rat it out, it's called living in a society, what you are literally doing is saying: "you have to respect me you cis white male no matter what I say, and if you don't I am offended and I'm going to call the thought police".

You cannot force people to accept every bit of your personality if you don't accept theirs, that is lack of empathy, double standards, you name it... this is the most hypocritical thing I ever had to witness to this day and it has nothing to do with your gender, but with your action in society and in the tech world.

People should earn respect not demand it out of nothing, also be judged by their actions not by gender or skin colour, looking at you cis white male chauvinist pigs, oh wait doesn't that goes against CoC? Again Fucking hypocritical double standard, you can be proud of anything you want, but this you should be ashamed.

And if you like MLK, here is some good reading, for you to read and try and access what you are actually doing!
https://stanford.app.box.com/s/ic53yohrfu8zo30j473a3ataf5leqenv

rudiservo replied Sep 28, 2018

@CoralineAda

you cannot possibly say it is within your right to shitstorm on twitter when you try and bring down other people professionally by having a different opinion, that's what's called a DOUBLE STANDARD! It's hypocritical to say the least and a complete lack of leadership, you should step down from the covenant on that basis alone by your own rules, not mine.

Also when you say cis white men, when well above 70% of the tech industry is composed by white men, in Europe that most of the population is white and most people that take IT and Tech are men, I mean what should I do?
Fire every white men I have working for me?
They should be ashamed of themselves for being good at a job that there is literally no one else that can take it?
Should I be ashamed for being white and male in tech industry when I actually had study or work 12 hours a day in order to get to where I am? Shouldn't I have a trauma now that literally someone that is suppose to be techsavy and have some leadership that my effort is worth shit because I am not different. Should I curl up in a ball and cry?

How do you want me to respect you if you do not respect me!

How can people not be offended by your CoC, that is based on grounds that any one that is a white male is a racist misogynist asshole... isn't that a lack of empathy and total disregard for actual number of people in IT that are White men in US/Europe, while in Japan is Japanese, in China, Chinese, in Africa let me guess, but those are not racist misogynist cis, just white males are... Double Standard anyone?!

Your are trying to push an unethical and unjust political agenda, when the only thing anyone should be pushing is "be civil and have common sense", if someone has a problem they should talk it out NOT rat it out, it's called living in a society, what you are literally doing is saying: "you have to respect me you cis white male no matter what I say, and if you don't I am offended and I'm going to call the thought police".

You cannot force people to accept every bit of your personality if you don't accept theirs, that is lack of empathy, double standards, you name it... this is the most hypocritical thing I ever had to witness to this day and it has nothing to do with your gender, but with your action in society and in the tech world.

People should earn respect not demand it out of nothing, also be judged by their actions not by gender or skin colour, looking at you cis white male chauvinist pigs, oh wait doesn't that goes against CoC? Again Fucking hypocritical double standard, you can be proud of anything you want, but this you should be ashamed.

And if you like MLK, here is some good reading, for you to read and try and access what you are actually doing!
https://stanford.app.box.com/s/ic53yohrfu8zo30j473a3ataf5leqenv

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kareldonk Sep 28, 2018

The community can only hope that abuse of said policies are minimal in the coming future...

LOL. If this commit doesn't get reverted, you might as well hope hell freezes over.

kareldonk replied Sep 28, 2018

The community can only hope that abuse of said policies are minimal in the coming future...

LOL. If this commit doesn't get reverted, you might as well hope hell freezes over.

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VincentXII Sep 28, 2018

Nobody wants this. Nobody who cares even minimally about Linux wants this. Never had we NEEDED this!

I'd like to wonder if @CoralineAda knows how to compile the Linux kernel. Or even clone the git repository. People like you are snakes, infiltrating communities to push your political agenda. Everybody was fine until you and your little posse showed up. I'm glad most people here know what you are trying to do and want you out.

You don't deserve to be here with how you treat people who like technology and want to see it grow. You don't care about technology, you wouldn't care if the Linux kernel burned down tomorrow. The Linux kernel was just another thing for you to implement your political agenda and gain more power. Now get out.

VincentXII replied Sep 28, 2018

Nobody wants this. Nobody who cares even minimally about Linux wants this. Never had we NEEDED this!

I'd like to wonder if @CoralineAda knows how to compile the Linux kernel. Or even clone the git repository. People like you are snakes, infiltrating communities to push your political agenda. Everybody was fine until you and your little posse showed up. I'm glad most people here know what you are trying to do and want you out.

You don't deserve to be here with how you treat people who like technology and want to see it grow. You don't care about technology, you wouldn't care if the Linux kernel burned down tomorrow. The Linux kernel was just another thing for you to implement your political agenda and gain more power. Now get out.

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digitalphoenix10 Sep 28, 2018

@CoralineAda
As quoted: “As a marginalized person in tech with mental health issues”.

Well then, maybe we should have a “marginalized person” without a mental instability to write a much better CoC for this community.

digitalphoenix10 replied Sep 28, 2018

@CoralineAda
As quoted: “As a marginalized person in tech with mental health issues”.

Well then, maybe we should have a “marginalized person” without a mental instability to write a much better CoC for this community.

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digitalphoenix10 Sep 28, 2018

@VinLark
Absolutely agree. These people first come off as benign beings and will attempt to implement their ideology on specific communities but eventually they will become malignant like cancer. Glad to see that almost the entire Linux community can see past the crap these people brought in. They need to keep their forked tounges behind their teeth.
Linux has always been inclusive (hell, there’s dudes on /g/ that literally wear thigh high socks that contributes to the community!)
People can say this till their blue in the face and SJWs will not listen. LINUX DOES NOT CARE WHAT YOUR BACKROUND IS! IF YOU WRITE SHIT CODE, YOU WILL BE TOLD THAT YOU WRITE SHIT CODE! ACT LIKE AN ADULT AND DEAL WITH IT!

digitalphoenix10 replied Sep 28, 2018

@VinLark
Absolutely agree. These people first come off as benign beings and will attempt to implement their ideology on specific communities but eventually they will become malignant like cancer. Glad to see that almost the entire Linux community can see past the crap these people brought in. They need to keep their forked tounges behind their teeth.
Linux has always been inclusive (hell, there’s dudes on /g/ that literally wear thigh high socks that contributes to the community!)
People can say this till their blue in the face and SJWs will not listen. LINUX DOES NOT CARE WHAT YOUR BACKROUND IS! IF YOU WRITE SHIT CODE, YOU WILL BE TOLD THAT YOU WRITE SHIT CODE! ACT LIKE AN ADULT AND DEAL WITH IT!

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saurabh2804 replied Sep 28, 2018

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Sariyn Sep 28, 2018

My account has been flagged, and I believe it is for speaking against this CoC. Is there any recourse available to me now? I just wrote to the Github support about it. Is there any way I can know the specifics?

On Friday 28 September 2018 08:11 PM, digitalphoenix10 wrote: @VinLark https://github.com/VinLark Absolutely agree. These people first come off as benign beings and will attempt to implement their ideology on specific communities but eventually they will become malignant like cancer. Glad to see that almost the entire Linux community can see past the crap these people brought in. They need to keep their forked tounges behind their teeth. Linux has always been inclusive (hell, there’s dudes on /g/ that literally wear thigh high socks that contributes to the community!) People can say this till their blue in the face and SJWs will not listen. LINUX DOES NOT CARE WHAT YOUR BACKROUND IS! IF YOU WRITE SHIT CODE, YOU WILL BE TOLD THAT YOU WRITE SHIT CODE! ACT LIKE AN ADULT AND DEAL WITH IT! — You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <8a104f8#commitcomment-30690507>, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AHarVeVwrhbeYm9xew8eV3doCtG3i3b1ks5ufjU1gaJpZM4WrIBC.

My account was flagged too so I deleted all my crap and got it restored. Apparently GitHub isn't Reddit, lol.
Edit: That's not to say you should delete your posts, could be for different reasons-- just send them an email @ customer service.

Sariyn replied Sep 28, 2018

My account has been flagged, and I believe it is for speaking against this CoC. Is there any recourse available to me now? I just wrote to the Github support about it. Is there any way I can know the specifics?

On Friday 28 September 2018 08:11 PM, digitalphoenix10 wrote: @VinLark https://github.com/VinLark Absolutely agree. These people first come off as benign beings and will attempt to implement their ideology on specific communities but eventually they will become malignant like cancer. Glad to see that almost the entire Linux community can see past the crap these people brought in. They need to keep their forked tounges behind their teeth. Linux has always been inclusive (hell, there’s dudes on /g/ that literally wear thigh high socks that contributes to the community!) People can say this till their blue in the face and SJWs will not listen. LINUX DOES NOT CARE WHAT YOUR BACKROUND IS! IF YOU WRITE SHIT CODE, YOU WILL BE TOLD THAT YOU WRITE SHIT CODE! ACT LIKE AN ADULT AND DEAL WITH IT! — You are receiving this because you were mentioned. Reply to this email directly, view it on GitHub <8a104f8#commitcomment-30690507>, or mute the thread https://github.com/notifications/unsubscribe-auth/AHarVeVwrhbeYm9xew8eV3doCtG3i3b1ks5ufjU1gaJpZM4WrIBC.

My account was flagged too so I deleted all my crap and got it restored. Apparently GitHub isn't Reddit, lol.
Edit: That's not to say you should delete your posts, could be for different reasons-- just send them an email @ customer service.

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tluanga34 Sep 28, 2018

GitHub is done too.

tluanga34 replied Sep 28, 2018

GitHub is done too.

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tluanga34 Sep 28, 2018

People's account got flagged for expressing their views. This is just what the community foresaw.

tluanga34 replied Sep 28, 2018

People's account got flagged for expressing their views. This is just what the community foresaw.

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linuxjh Sep 28, 2018

how to tell if GitHub flagged an account or not

linuxjh replied Sep 28, 2018

how to tell if GitHub flagged an account or not

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ChrisCates Sep 28, 2018

@kareldonk, upper management at leading tech companies are not shy to showcase (radical) left and liberal ideologies... Mentioned before, you were censored for sharing an opinion...

There are hundreds of companies backing this covenant...
@tghe-retford pointed out the issues with it the best too...

So I guess we need to figure out how to make hell icy or something lol...

ChrisCates replied Sep 28, 2018

@kareldonk, upper management at leading tech companies are not shy to showcase (radical) left and liberal ideologies... Mentioned before, you were censored for sharing an opinion...

There are hundreds of companies backing this covenant...
@tghe-retford pointed out the issues with it the best too...

So I guess we need to figure out how to make hell icy or something lol...

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the1337guy Sep 28, 2018

@CoralineAda I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If tech isn't a meritocracy, make it so. What makes you think the minorities would be liked if tech weren't a meritocracy? Ideal meritocracy in my belief would do more to help everyone than your postmeritocracy ideology.

If there aren't minorities in tech, there can be only two reasons:

  1. It isn't meritocratic and there is discrimination. Solution: Remove the discriminatory assholes. I don't think this CoC is the right step in order to implement that, if they were considered clean by the previous CoC, I'd guess this one will be able to do nohing, as well.
  2. There aren't enough such people who want to work in tech. Solution: Educate them and add them to the workforce (possible anti-unemployed language, sorry). This CoC doesn't do anything for them, too.

the1337guy replied Sep 28, 2018

@CoralineAda I'm not sure what you're trying to say. If tech isn't a meritocracy, make it so. What makes you think the minorities would be liked if tech weren't a meritocracy? Ideal meritocracy in my belief would do more to help everyone than your postmeritocracy ideology.

If there aren't minorities in tech, there can be only two reasons:

  1. It isn't meritocratic and there is discrimination. Solution: Remove the discriminatory assholes. I don't think this CoC is the right step in order to implement that, if they were considered clean by the previous CoC, I'd guess this one will be able to do nohing, as well.
  2. There aren't enough such people who want to work in tech. Solution: Educate them and add them to the workforce (possible anti-unemployed language, sorry). This CoC doesn't do anything for them, too.
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LWSS Sep 28, 2018

Yep my account got flagged too

Careful what you say guys

LWSS replied Sep 28, 2018

Yep my account got flagged too

Careful what you say guys

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imcsk8 Sep 29, 2018

What The Fuck!!
O sorry! What "The act of sexual carnal love relationship" this politically correct nonsense is going too far.

I'm not an active contributor to this project
but i've been using it an promoting it for more than 20 years and what makes Linux superior its it technically driven community.

If you care more about all the politically correct bullshit than technical excellence go and contribute to your local potpurry club and let the programmers and sysadmins do our thing.

Please revoke this commit it's bullshit

Go ahead censor me fucking millenial thin skinned pussies

imcsk8 replied Sep 29, 2018

What The Fuck!!
O sorry! What "The act of sexual carnal love relationship" this politically correct nonsense is going too far.

I'm not an active contributor to this project
but i've been using it an promoting it for more than 20 years and what makes Linux superior its it technically driven community.

If you care more about all the politically correct bullshit than technical excellence go and contribute to your local potpurry club and let the programmers and sysadmins do our thing.

Please revoke this commit it's bullshit

Go ahead censor me fucking millenial thin skinned pussies

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Chiiruno Sep 29, 2018

@imcsk8 You realize that the polls tend to be biased, and most millennials don't support this crap, right?
Sure, it's probably a third, which is unfortunate, but that will change with time and wisdom, as they grow and begin to see.
I'm sure you were a dumb 20-something at some point too, just like the rest of most of us.

Chiiruno replied Sep 29, 2018

@imcsk8 You realize that the polls tend to be biased, and most millennials don't support this crap, right?
Sure, it's probably a third, which is unfortunate, but that will change with time and wisdom, as they grow and begin to see.
I'm sure you were a dumb 20-something at some point too, just like the rest of most of us.

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TheCrazyLex Sep 29, 2018

Exciting times

TheCrazyLex replied Sep 29, 2018

Exciting times

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rudiservo Sep 29, 2018

Get ready for the social justice inquisition!
We don't need or want that sort of thing in europe, most countries have have a clear constitution against any political, gender, skin colour persecution.

rudiservo replied Sep 29, 2018

Get ready for the social justice inquisition!
We don't need or want that sort of thing in europe, most countries have have a clear constitution against any political, gender, skin colour persecution.

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imcsk8 Sep 29, 2018

@Chiiruno

@imcsk8 You realize that the polls tend to be biased, and most millennials don't support this crap, right?
Yeah i know a lot of kids that are just kids trying to leave their mark in the world without whining all the time (being from México you don't have time to be a pussy) but also know that there are thin skinned spoiled babies that make a lot of noise and try to impose their politically correct agenda and don't realize that we should have freedom to be assholes just for the fun of it.

Now, i don't say that we should be assholes i'm just saying that we should not accept censorship or censor ourselves in order to avoid hurting someones feelings, if someone feels offended its his problem (and yes the "his" is intentional if you know what i mean) and in case of a computer kernel like Linux i'll rather have offended programers with good code than mediocre software with "happy humans", this is important. Linux is used in a lot of places and people might even die so fuck their feelings!!

Also, i'm pretty sure that old 40 year elders like me are sick and tired of this tendency to avoid offending pepole, again, i'm not saying we should but sometime truth just hurts or as we say in spanish ["La verdad no peca pero incomoda"|https://translate.google.com/#es/en/La%20verdad%20no%20peca%20pero%20incomoda]

Let's just be ourselves, be nice, and keep creating good software instead of wasting time taking care of whinnie peoples feelings it's their problem not ours.

Sure, it's probably a third, which is unfortunate, but that will change with time and wisdom, as they grow and begin to see.
The problem here is that in the mean time they can do a lot of damage...

I'm sure you were a dumb 20-something at some point too, just like the rest of most of us.

I'm a dumb 20-something trapped in the body of a 44 year old man :P

BTW i don't know where all this references to toxic relationships and toxic environments came from but they are just plain stupid.

imcsk8 replied Sep 29, 2018

@Chiiruno

@imcsk8 You realize that the polls tend to be biased, and most millennials don't support this crap, right?
Yeah i know a lot of kids that are just kids trying to leave their mark in the world without whining all the time (being from México you don't have time to be a pussy) but also know that there are thin skinned spoiled babies that make a lot of noise and try to impose their politically correct agenda and don't realize that we should have freedom to be assholes just for the fun of it.

Now, i don't say that we should be assholes i'm just saying that we should not accept censorship or censor ourselves in order to avoid hurting someones feelings, if someone feels offended its his problem (and yes the "his" is intentional if you know what i mean) and in case of a computer kernel like Linux i'll rather have offended programers with good code than mediocre software with "happy humans", this is important. Linux is used in a lot of places and people might even die so fuck their feelings!!

Also, i'm pretty sure that old 40 year elders like me are sick and tired of this tendency to avoid offending pepole, again, i'm not saying we should but sometime truth just hurts or as we say in spanish ["La verdad no peca pero incomoda"|https://translate.google.com/#es/en/La%20verdad%20no%20peca%20pero%20incomoda]

Let's just be ourselves, be nice, and keep creating good software instead of wasting time taking care of whinnie peoples feelings it's their problem not ours.

Sure, it's probably a third, which is unfortunate, but that will change with time and wisdom, as they grow and begin to see.
The problem here is that in the mean time they can do a lot of damage...

I'm sure you were a dumb 20-something at some point too, just like the rest of most of us.

I'm a dumb 20-something trapped in the body of a 44 year old man :P

BTW i don't know where all this references to toxic relationships and toxic environments came from but they are just plain stupid.

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adamczykm Sep 29, 2018

Now that we've seen that everybody shares similar opinion, will the COC commit be reverted or forked out?

adamczykm replied Sep 29, 2018

Now that we've seen that everybody shares similar opinion, will the COC commit be reverted or forked out?

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digitalphoenix10 Sep 29, 2018

@adamczykm
It’s what the community wants but it’s not what the community is gonna get.

digitalphoenix10 replied Sep 29, 2018

@adamczykm
It’s what the community wants but it’s not what the community is gonna get.

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dusnm Sep 29, 2018

This is one of those areas that should do without letting politics get in the way of things. Can we just go back to publishing code based on if it's actually good? This will only hurt Linux and the Linux community in the long run.

dusnm replied Sep 29, 2018

This is one of those areas that should do without letting politics get in the way of things. Can we just go back to publishing code based on if it's actually good? This will only hurt Linux and the Linux community in the long run.

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Chiiruno Sep 30, 2018

@imcsk8

Linux is used in a lot of places and people might even die so fuck their feelings!!

I agree, honestly, I really don't want bad code to be accepted because of this policy.
Hopefully this is just a paper tiger that the TAB won't really enforce, but I wouldn't expect that for long.

BTW i don't know where all this references to toxic relationships and toxic environments came from but they are just plain stupid.

The term 'toxic' itself does make sense, but the way it's used by SJWs seems to mean 'anything I don't like'.

Chiiruno replied Sep 30, 2018

@imcsk8

Linux is used in a lot of places and people might even die so fuck their feelings!!

I agree, honestly, I really don't want bad code to be accepted because of this policy.
Hopefully this is just a paper tiger that the TAB won't really enforce, but I wouldn't expect that for long.

BTW i don't know where all this references to toxic relationships and toxic environments came from but they are just plain stupid.

The term 'toxic' itself does make sense, but the way it's used by SJWs seems to mean 'anything I don't like'.

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sholwe Sep 30, 2018

The good thing about owning decade-old hardware is that it probably works on a BSD derivative by now.

sholwe replied Sep 30, 2018

The good thing about owning decade-old hardware is that it probably works on a BSD derivative by now.

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linuxjh Oct 1, 2018

so eventually politicians on the TAB make it true “there will be no Linux (if I heard 386BSD before)”

linuxjh replied Oct 1, 2018

so eventually politicians on the TAB make it true “there will be no Linux (if I heard 386BSD before)”

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ReinsBrain Oct 1, 2018

@gregkh @torvalds - I think we have seen enough opposition to this commit - perhaps it is time to go back to the drawing board and return with a much simplified version 2 of the CoC that focuses on professionality. Or just excise it entirely, try to forget this foray and move on.

ReinsBrain replied Oct 1, 2018

@gregkh @torvalds - I think we have seen enough opposition to this commit - perhaps it is time to go back to the drawing board and return with a much simplified version 2 of the CoC that focuses on professionality. Or just excise it entirely, try to forget this foray and move on.

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filpAM Oct 1, 2018

I am the only one who support a few points of the CoC? I guess so.

This has nothing to do with right of self-expression but respect, and respect means treating other people equally regardless of their level of knowledge about programming or the kernel source code. The point of this CoC is to bring developers more together, otherwise the "unfriendliness" inside the community will persist and you know that is not healthy for a community.

If you don't agree with this CoC, well you are free to fork this kernel and develop your own with your ideologies. The rule of thumb is: adapt to it.

filpAM replied Oct 1, 2018

I am the only one who support a few points of the CoC? I guess so.

This has nothing to do with right of self-expression but respect, and respect means treating other people equally regardless of their level of knowledge about programming or the kernel source code. The point of this CoC is to bring developers more together, otherwise the "unfriendliness" inside the community will persist and you know that is not healthy for a community.

If you don't agree with this CoC, well you are free to fork this kernel and develop your own with your ideologies. The rule of thumb is: adapt to it.

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sholwe Oct 1, 2018

This has nothing to do with right of self-expression but respect, and respect means treating other people equally regardless of their level of knowledge about programming or the kernel source code. The point of this CoC is to bring developers more together, otherwise the "unfriendliness" inside the community will persist and you know that is not healthy for a community.

I don't pretend to know EFI, nor do I expect someone to respect me as though I did. This entire argument is asinine.

sholwe replied Oct 1, 2018

This has nothing to do with right of self-expression but respect, and respect means treating other people equally regardless of their level of knowledge about programming or the kernel source code. The point of this CoC is to bring developers more together, otherwise the "unfriendliness" inside the community will persist and you know that is not healthy for a community.

I don't pretend to know EFI, nor do I expect someone to respect me as though I did. This entire argument is asinine.

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survivor303 Oct 1, 2018

I am the only one who support a few points of the CoC? I guess so.

Perhaps so and how many lines of code you have contributed to the linux kernel?

This has nothing to do with right of self-expression but respect, and respect means treating other people equally regardless of their level of knowledge about programming or the kernel source code. The point of this CoC is to bring developers more together, otherwise the "unfriendliness" inside the community will persist and you know that is not healthy for a community.

Where you see unfriendliness (before this coc nonsense)? ok some can be that but like always, SO WHAT? some people can be arse on sunday nights. And for the community, it is healthy to release some steam every now and then and people ON THE COMMUNITY understand that.

If you don't agree with this CoC, well you are free to fork this kernel and develop your own with your ideologies. The rule of thumb is: adapt to it.

No that is the point, we dosnt accept this CoC overtaking Linux kernel, and we fight against it. Even Linus itself dosnt like it, even he was signed it (why he do something like that, perhaps we get answer for that later).

And about Linus "unfirendliness" behavior, he has to be that right to be what he want to be, he dosnt need to get pressure from anyone or anywhere. Kernel is his baby and we all others are just Linus little helpers. That is something what you proCoC and JWS crazy people need to know.

survivor303 replied Oct 1, 2018

I am the only one who support a few points of the CoC? I guess so.

Perhaps so and how many lines of code you have contributed to the linux kernel?

This has nothing to do with right of self-expression but respect, and respect means treating other people equally regardless of their level of knowledge about programming or the kernel source code. The point of this CoC is to bring developers more together, otherwise the "unfriendliness" inside the community will persist and you know that is not healthy for a community.

Where you see unfriendliness (before this coc nonsense)? ok some can be that but like always, SO WHAT? some people can be arse on sunday nights. And for the community, it is healthy to release some steam every now and then and people ON THE COMMUNITY understand that.

If you don't agree with this CoC, well you are free to fork this kernel and develop your own with your ideologies. The rule of thumb is: adapt to it.

No that is the point, we dosnt accept this CoC overtaking Linux kernel, and we fight against it. Even Linus itself dosnt like it, even he was signed it (why he do something like that, perhaps we get answer for that later).

And about Linus "unfirendliness" behavior, he has to be that right to be what he want to be, he dosnt need to get pressure from anyone or anywhere. Kernel is his baby and we all others are just Linus little helpers. That is something what you proCoC and JWS crazy people need to know.

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ChrisCates Oct 1, 2018

@Megafan123, the intent of the Code of Conduct seems to be well meaning and inclusive...

However, as many have already stated, the policies are open to a lot of abuse...
We already have several accounts where such policies are used as leverage to create problems...

Conflicting ideologies that are not related to the code base itself should not be used against contributors... Only when a contributor is obstructed by another should maintainers seek conflict resolution.

ChrisCates replied Oct 1, 2018

@Megafan123, the intent of the Code of Conduct seems to be well meaning and inclusive...

However, as many have already stated, the policies are open to a lot of abuse...
We already have several accounts where such policies are used as leverage to create problems...

Conflicting ideologies that are not related to the code base itself should not be used against contributors... Only when a contributor is obstructed by another should maintainers seek conflict resolution.

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jeremyckahn Oct 2, 2018

I think it's worth pointing out that, after scrolling through this long, long list of angry comments, seemingly all of the dissenting voices of folks who are willing to show their real face appear to present as male. There is no risk in being a male in open source, even less if you're white, straight, and cisgendered. The CoC isn't necessarily for folks like that; it's for the folks who don't feel safe in showing who they are online for fear of the abusive comments like the ones here.

jeremyckahn replied Oct 2, 2018

I think it's worth pointing out that, after scrolling through this long, long list of angry comments, seemingly all of the dissenting voices of folks who are willing to show their real face appear to present as male. There is no risk in being a male in open source, even less if you're white, straight, and cisgendered. The CoC isn't necessarily for folks like that; it's for the folks who don't feel safe in showing who they are online for fear of the abusive comments like the ones here.

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digitalphoenix10 Oct 2, 2018

@jeremyckahn
I am pretty sure you just went against one of the rules in the CoC by assuming someone's gender. Just because some individuals present themselves as a cisgendered male, doesn't mean that they actually are.

digitalphoenix10 replied Oct 2, 2018

@jeremyckahn
I am pretty sure you just went against one of the rules in the CoC by assuming someone's gender. Just because some individuals present themselves as a cisgendered male, doesn't mean that they actually are.

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FlameCN Oct 2, 2018

大神初衷是好的,自己身先士卒改造自己,但是造成了异议这也是事实,应该慢慢推进。反对者认为:管它黑猫白猫,能写代码的都是好猫,是不是很耳熟?但要知道猫论实验已经失败(人性无约束的纵容必将失败),还是大神高瞻远瞩,放任人性无约束只会更加糟糕,自己糟糕的脾气也源于社区的纵容,一个皇帝能够意识到错误并改正自己和周围的人难能可贵,或许骂惯了的人觉得很不自在,或者老被骂突然没人骂也觉得不自在。反对者视角:能写好代码就应该在社区。鼠目寸光,忽视了2种假设:这些人冒着被踢的风险死不悔改才会被踢,大部分人会约束下自己(少了种族歧视的代码牛人linux会崩塌,地球不转?linux要一部登天?放慢脚步只会更好)。无约束的继续恶化升级为线下枪杀,他们是否会承担责任?还不是linus承担,要知道不写注释被同事枪杀的事情刚刚发生!

FlameCN replied Oct 2, 2018

大神初衷是好的,自己身先士卒改造自己,但是造成了异议这也是事实,应该慢慢推进。反对者认为:管它黑猫白猫,能写代码的都是好猫,是不是很耳熟?但要知道猫论实验已经失败(人性无约束的纵容必将失败),还是大神高瞻远瞩,放任人性无约束只会更加糟糕,自己糟糕的脾气也源于社区的纵容,一个皇帝能够意识到错误并改正自己和周围的人难能可贵,或许骂惯了的人觉得很不自在,或者老被骂突然没人骂也觉得不自在。反对者视角:能写好代码就应该在社区。鼠目寸光,忽视了2种假设:这些人冒着被踢的风险死不悔改才会被踢,大部分人会约束下自己(少了种族歧视的代码牛人linux会崩塌,地球不转?linux要一部登天?放慢脚步只会更好)。无约束的继续恶化升级为线下枪杀,他们是否会承担责任?还不是linus承担,要知道不写注释被同事枪杀的事情刚刚发生!

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redchenjs Oct 2, 2018

@FlameCN 支持者们心领神会,反对者们各种炮轰。也难怪,人都是有偏见的,人的思维体系一旦建立起来,就很难改变。

redchenjs replied Oct 2, 2018

@FlameCN 支持者们心领神会,反对者们各种炮轰。也难怪,人都是有偏见的,人的思维体系一旦建立起来,就很难改变。

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rudiservo Oct 2, 2018

@jeremyckahn

I think it's worth pointing out that, after scrolling through this long, long list of angry comments, seemingly all of the dissenting voices of folks who are willing to show their real face appear to present as male. There is no risk in being a male in open source, even less if you're white, straight, and cisgendered. The CoC isn't necessarily for folks like that; it's for the folks who don't feel safe in showing who they are online for fear of the abusive comments like the ones here.

Code has no gender, nobody cares about the gender or your hair colour, people care about work, why would you go contribute to a project and then show who you are, because you are proud of it?
Also there is a double standard here, the person who wrote the CoC says it's within her right to insult developers whatever way she wants in twitter, because it's not in the project discussion?!
Aren't people suppose to be safe from harassment even if they are cis white males?

Just saying this fells like if you a white male shut up and should be ashamed to even have a job!

rudiservo replied Oct 2, 2018

@jeremyckahn

I think it's worth pointing out that, after scrolling through this long, long list of angry comments, seemingly all of the dissenting voices of folks who are willing to show their real face appear to present as male. There is no risk in being a male in open source, even less if you're white, straight, and cisgendered. The CoC isn't necessarily for folks like that; it's for the folks who don't feel safe in showing who they are online for fear of the abusive comments like the ones here.

Code has no gender, nobody cares about the gender or your hair colour, people care about work, why would you go contribute to a project and then show who you are, because you are proud of it?
Also there is a double standard here, the person who wrote the CoC says it's within her right to insult developers whatever way she wants in twitter, because it's not in the project discussion?!
Aren't people suppose to be safe from harassment even if they are cis white males?

Just saying this fells like if you a white male shut up and should be ashamed to even have a job!

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rudiservo Oct 2, 2018

I am widely against the adoption of this CoC, it either should be rewriten and reviewed or the covenent leader @CoralineAda should be kicked out for having double standards and not following her own rules.

rudiservo replied Oct 2, 2018

I am widely against the adoption of this CoC, it either should be rewriten and reviewed or the covenent leader @CoralineAda should be kicked out for having double standards and not following her own rules.

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jtolds Oct 2, 2018

After having only muted this thread in my email, the thread must have spilled over and another round of notifications of comments has reminded me of it.

This thread has been very useful to me and I'm sure to a number of other prominent hiring managers. Here, in one easy to find place, is a list of people who are publicly saying they cannot support agreeing to accountability for being decent and professional to other human beings. Cool! A lot of you are on my never-hire list now.

Found the Github unsubscribe button this time.

jtolds replied Oct 2, 2018

After having only muted this thread in my email, the thread must have spilled over and another round of notifications of comments has reminded me of it.

This thread has been very useful to me and I'm sure to a number of other prominent hiring managers. Here, in one easy to find place, is a list of people who are publicly saying they cannot support agreeing to accountability for being decent and professional to other human beings. Cool! A lot of you are on my never-hire list now.

Found the Github unsubscribe button this time.

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galileo-pkm replied Oct 2, 2018

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regrev Oct 2, 2018

This thread has been very useful to me and I'm sure to a number of other prominent hiring managers. Here, in one easy to find place, is a list of people who are publicly saying they cannot support agreeing to accountability for being decent and professional to other human beings. Cool! A lot of you are on my never-hire list now.

No one here is disagreeing to be decent and professional to other people. Interesting that you'd shame people here having a discussion and then run off by muting the thread. Very professional.

regrev replied Oct 2, 2018

This thread has been very useful to me and I'm sure to a number of other prominent hiring managers. Here, in one easy to find place, is a list of people who are publicly saying they cannot support agreeing to accountability for being decent and professional to other human beings. Cool! A lot of you are on my never-hire list now.

No one here is disagreeing to be decent and professional to other people. Interesting that you'd shame people here having a discussion and then run off by muting the thread. Very professional.

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rudiservo Oct 2, 2018

@jtolds
well... decent and professional is grounds for meritocracy, so you are not in compliance with the covenant or the CoC.
The never-hire list is also against the CoC, that is grounds for not respecting other peoples views, profiling, etc, am I missing something here?
I don't have a never-hire list because I try to be professional and decent and i do like diversity, unlike you!
But hey Cool, if you ever need advice on leadership give me a call ;)

rudiservo replied Oct 2, 2018

@jtolds
well... decent and professional is grounds for meritocracy, so you are not in compliance with the covenant or the CoC.
The never-hire list is also against the CoC, that is grounds for not respecting other peoples views, profiling, etc, am I missing something here?
I don't have a never-hire list because I try to be professional and decent and i do like diversity, unlike you!
But hey Cool, if you ever need advice on leadership give me a call ;)

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ChrisCates Oct 2, 2018

Let's be clear here why this implementation is especially problematic...
It has less to do with the Code of Conduct itself, moreover the politics behind it.

  1. Linus has been well known to be opposed to these kinds of things.

  2. Disputes have been claimed such as in 2015. Even when Code Of Conflict was in effect.

  3. Shortly before The CoC is implemented, anti-white, white-guilt propaganda is spewed by the maintainer.

  4. CoC is implemented, Linus stops working on Linux temporarily.

  5. Linus shows clear disdain for what happened... And it's clear from his open letter there are some seriously concerning attributes from a political and reputation standpoint.

I don't think everyone has followed this correctly, or understand why this is concerning. These are double standards being implemented, and are being sidestepped for nepotism.

ChrisCates replied Oct 2, 2018

Let's be clear here why this implementation is especially problematic...
It has less to do with the Code of Conduct itself, moreover the politics behind it.

  1. Linus has been well known to be opposed to these kinds of things.

  2. Disputes have been claimed such as in 2015. Even when Code Of Conflict was in effect.

  3. Shortly before The CoC is implemented, anti-white, white-guilt propaganda is spewed by the maintainer.

  4. CoC is implemented, Linus stops working on Linux temporarily.

  5. Linus shows clear disdain for what happened... And it's clear from his open letter there are some seriously concerning attributes from a political and reputation standpoint.

I don't think everyone has followed this correctly, or understand why this is concerning. These are double standards being implemented, and are being sidestepped for nepotism.

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digitalphoenix10 Oct 2, 2018

@ChrisCates
Agreed. I’d be full support of a Code of Conduct if it weren’t for the political tendencies hidden in them.

The absolute main reason people are “overreacting” to this CoC is because it just appeared out of nowhere without a warning.

Linux is an open source project that millions of volunteers around the world devoted their free time to make the absolute best code possible for the kernel. Linux isn’t owned by some corporation that requires a CoC, this is all purely a volunteer project.

So yes, people do have the right to “overreact” to this CoC.

@jtolds
And you... I hope you’re trolling...
Probably not, but I like to think so. No one is that dense.