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Getting to v4 #20631

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mdo opened this Issue Sep 5, 2016 · 66 comments

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mdo commented Sep 5, 2016

Long story short, v4 has taken far too long and I know we're struggling to find enough time to make significant dents across the open issues and PRs. To help get through it all, I'm calling it on v3 and outlining the big steps remaining here so folks know what's in store.

Here's how we get from a string of alphas to a finalized v4 release:

  • Stop all work on v3—today. The open issues, split dev setup, and more holds us back from focusing entirely on v4. I'll close all remaining v3 issues and milestones. Any new changes to v3 will be sporadic and highly irregular.
  • Switch v4-dev to the default branch. Building on step one, this makes v4-dev the code you see when you visit the repo. I'll cut a v3-dev branch and leave master as-is until v4 ships.
  • Move the docs sites. The biggest pain will be moving our docs pages around (specifically, moving v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com to getbootstrap.com). The current v3 docs will be moved to a sub-directory like our other hosted versions.
  • Leave the Alpha site as-is, and introduce new docs subdirectory. We'll leave v4-alpha.getbootstrap.com as a snippet of history (updating the header of course to point to the stable release) and put the new docs at getbootstrap.com/docs/4.0/.
  • Ship some betas. After the alpha releases take care of the major breaking changes, we'll ship some beta releases to work out the final kinks before RC and final releases.

There's a ton this list misses, but these are the broad strokes that get us to v4. Holler with any questions or comments as I push us through this.

/cc @twbs/team

@mdo mdo added meta v4 labels Sep 5, 2016

This was referenced Sep 5, 2016

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BobbyBabes Dec 13, 2016

... we're struggling to find enough time to make significant dents across the open issues and PRs.

At the moment I see only one open PR for v3 when I filter with is:pr is:open label:v3
Have you hidden the other open PRs for v3?

I'm asking because I still have one WP theme built with BS v3. Everything is OK with that theme.
But of course I have not used every component of BS in that theme. So if I would add a new component, and it has a quirk or bug, I would like to possibly help myself by looking at still pending/open v3 PRs.

BobbyBabes commented Dec 13, 2016

... we're struggling to find enough time to make significant dents across the open issues and PRs.

At the moment I see only one open PR for v3 when I filter with is:pr is:open label:v3
Have you hidden the other open PRs for v3?

I'm asking because I still have one WP theme built with BS v3. Everything is OK with that theme.
But of course I have not used every component of BS in that theme. So if I would add a new component, and it has a quirk or bug, I would like to possibly help myself by looking at still pending/open v3 PRs.

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rafalp Dec 13, 2016

@BobbyBabes p'much they locked all issues and pr's that were focused at v3.

rafalp commented Dec 13, 2016

@BobbyBabes p'much they locked all issues and pr's that were focused at v3.

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cvrebert Dec 13, 2016

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Have you hidden the other open PRs for v3?

GitHub has no such feature. The PRs for v3 have almost completely been dealt with already. Most were closed as WontFix for the reasons explained earlier in this issue.

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cvrebert commented Dec 13, 2016

Have you hidden the other open PRs for v3?

GitHub has no such feature. The PRs for v3 have almost completely been dealt with already. Most were closed as WontFix for the reasons explained earlier in this issue.

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BobbyBabes Dec 13, 2016

@rafalp @cvrebert Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't realise that the open PRs were all closed with "WontFix". I'll treat the closed v3 PRs with WontFix as not yet in BS v3 then.
I just want to be able to look into the actual PRs that are not in v3 yet. Just to fix stuff myself when required.
EDIT: Too bad that you don't have a WontFix label. (Just kidding.)

BobbyBabes commented Dec 13, 2016

@rafalp @cvrebert Thanks for clearing that up. I didn't realise that the open PRs were all closed with "WontFix". I'll treat the closed v3 PRs with WontFix as not yet in BS v3 then.
I just want to be able to look into the actual PRs that are not in v3 yet. Just to fix stuff myself when required.
EDIT: Too bad that you don't have a WontFix label. (Just kidding.)

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jipexu Dec 14, 2016

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@ BS dev team : you make a great job ! thanks for that ... I agree that is time to focus the entire energy on the beta4 following by BS4 !

BS 3 was a very good tool who no need more time to spend ..
We use BS 4 alpha xxx in several of our site across our CMS (since months) and it's just perfect ... except the change on each alpha .. ;-) ... but this is the game ... (... and we wait also to make a new beta version of our CMS)

I know the time needed for such project and one more time THANKS for the team !

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jipexu commented Dec 14, 2016

@ BS dev team : you make a great job ! thanks for that ... I agree that is time to focus the entire energy on the beta4 following by BS4 !

BS 3 was a very good tool who no need more time to spend ..
We use BS 4 alpha xxx in several of our site across our CMS (since months) and it's just perfect ... except the change on each alpha .. ;-) ... but this is the game ... (... and we wait also to make a new beta version of our CMS)

I know the time needed for such project and one more time THANKS for the team !

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rafalp Apr 16, 2017

@m1guelpf there are plenty in other milestones and issues for you to find out ;)

rafalp commented Apr 16, 2017

@m1guelpf there are plenty in other milestones and issues for you to find out ;)

@mdo mdo added this to the v4.0.0-beta milestone May 29, 2017

@mdo mdo added this to In progress in v4 Beta 1 May 29, 2017

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MargateSteve May 30, 2017

Looking back through this, although licensing would bring in some cash there is no doubt overall usage would drop and people would just start torrenting it. That said, with ad-blockers, advertising revenue is probably very little in comparison to the usage and time spent developing it.
Why not start selling submitted Bootstrap sites or components (think Themeforest/Codecanyon and the like)? It would make sense for things built with Bootstrap to be sold on the site and the the team to get some of the money in return.

MargateSteve commented May 30, 2017

Looking back through this, although licensing would bring in some cash there is no doubt overall usage would drop and people would just start torrenting it. That said, with ad-blockers, advertising revenue is probably very little in comparison to the usage and time spent developing it.
Why not start selling submitted Bootstrap sites or components (think Themeforest/Codecanyon and the like)? It would make sense for things built with Bootstrap to be sold on the site and the the team to get some of the money in return.

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AlchemyUnited May 31, 2017

@MargateSteve said "...no doubt overall usage would drop and people would just start torrenting it...."

Well, in the context of the current no product revenue stream at all, it's not like such a drop in usage would mean a drop in revenue ;)

Why can't there be a premium license for commercial usage? I can't image how, say $25 a pop would be too much for most reasonable companies to handle. Even a $100 developer's lifetime license might fly.

FWIW, Radiohead made more money on "In Rainbows" than all their previous major label releases combined. In Rainbows was when they did a "pay what you want" model. Certainly @mdo & co is as talented as Thom Yorke & Co.

AlchemyUnited commented May 31, 2017

@MargateSteve said "...no doubt overall usage would drop and people would just start torrenting it...."

Well, in the context of the current no product revenue stream at all, it's not like such a drop in usage would mean a drop in revenue ;)

Why can't there be a premium license for commercial usage? I can't image how, say $25 a pop would be too much for most reasonable companies to handle. Even a $100 developer's lifetime license might fly.

FWIW, Radiohead made more money on "In Rainbows" than all their previous major label releases combined. In Rainbows was when they did a "pay what you want" model. Certainly @mdo & co is as talented as Thom Yorke & Co.

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@AlchemyUnited @MargateSteve
MDO and team have already stated (more than once) that there are absolutely no plans to start charging for commercial usage. For that those don't know already; if anyone really wants to financially support some of the team there are optional Bootstrap themes which add additional components, utilities and plugins: https://themes.getbootstrap.com/collections/all

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coliff commented May 31, 2017

@AlchemyUnited @MargateSteve
MDO and team have already stated (more than once) that there are absolutely no plans to start charging for commercial usage. For that those don't know already; if anyone really wants to financially support some of the team there are optional Bootstrap themes which add additional components, utilities and plugins: https://themes.getbootstrap.com/collections/all

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MargateSteve May 31, 2017

@AlchemyUnited I meant to say 'OR people will start torrenting it'. I agree with what you say that any income would be better than none but the long and short is that I do not think charging (appreciating @coliff's reply that there are no plans to) would be the best option. Anything that has to be paid for gets torrented and with that they also get hacked, amended or virus-riddled, meaning what someone thinks is Bootstrap is an unstable clone and the brands name gets tarnished. Also, I am not in a financial position to drop $25 each time I have an idea!

@coliff I have seen those and they are very nice, however only a ridiculously devoted Bootstrap fan would shell out $99 when you can get similar, packed to the brim with a host of open source plug-ins already integrated, for $25 on Themeforest. When you see the sales numbers of some of the templates on there, it seems madness that Envato are making a fortune from templates built on Bootstrap while Mark and the team get nothing.

MargateSteve commented May 31, 2017

@AlchemyUnited I meant to say 'OR people will start torrenting it'. I agree with what you say that any income would be better than none but the long and short is that I do not think charging (appreciating @coliff's reply that there are no plans to) would be the best option. Anything that has to be paid for gets torrented and with that they also get hacked, amended or virus-riddled, meaning what someone thinks is Bootstrap is an unstable clone and the brands name gets tarnished. Also, I am not in a financial position to drop $25 each time I have an idea!

@coliff I have seen those and they are very nice, however only a ridiculously devoted Bootstrap fan would shell out $99 when you can get similar, packed to the brim with a host of open source plug-ins already integrated, for $25 on Themeforest. When you see the sales numbers of some of the templates on there, it seems madness that Envato are making a fortune from templates built on Bootstrap while Mark and the team get nothing.

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AlchemyUnited May 31, 2017

@MargateSteve - I wish I had $5 for every forum posts that starts "I have a problem with ______. I bought it on ThemeForest..." :)

Would a lower price sell more? Sure! Does more = better (over the long term)? Not necessarily. $99 might be too rich for some, but at the same time the value is probably well in excess of $99.

Perhaps we need a movement (?) similar to "fair trade" (for coffee)? The point being (provided the $74 delta doesn't kill you) there is a difference between the $99 to the team makes the magic happen, and $25 to the dude/dude-ette downstream that stands on the shoulders of those giants. Mind you, it should probably be obvious. But I'm pretty sure it's not. It's not just what you pay, but also who you pay.

AlchemyUnited commented May 31, 2017

@MargateSteve - I wish I had $5 for every forum posts that starts "I have a problem with ______. I bought it on ThemeForest..." :)

Would a lower price sell more? Sure! Does more = better (over the long term)? Not necessarily. $99 might be too rich for some, but at the same time the value is probably well in excess of $99.

Perhaps we need a movement (?) similar to "fair trade" (for coffee)? The point being (provided the $74 delta doesn't kill you) there is a difference between the $99 to the team makes the magic happen, and $25 to the dude/dude-ette downstream that stands on the shoulders of those giants. Mind you, it should probably be obvious. But I'm pretty sure it's not. It's not just what you pay, but also who you pay.

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rafalp May 31, 2017

So you have fulltime job and sideproject that's opensource that you work for fun/satisfaction or out of personal feeling of obligation to "the community". Now you decide to commercialize your OS project too and start charging for it.

Now you are working two jobs, each with people you now have real obligation to because money is involved. And because money is involved your bank is involved, or paypal, or law, or tax office.

Thats how "great idea" it is to try charge for your side project in addition to doing regular one.

rafalp commented May 31, 2017

So you have fulltime job and sideproject that's opensource that you work for fun/satisfaction or out of personal feeling of obligation to "the community". Now you decide to commercialize your OS project too and start charging for it.

Now you are working two jobs, each with people you now have real obligation to because money is involved. And because money is involved your bank is involved, or paypal, or law, or tax office.

Thats how "great idea" it is to try charge for your side project in addition to doing regular one.

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patrickhlauke May 31, 2017

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also, and maybe i'm naive/missing something: if this became a paid-for project, what would the incentive be for non-team-members to contribute? and how would revenue be split across team members? etc. anyway, i believe this idea was nixed ages ago, so no point in dredging it out further...

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patrickhlauke commented May 31, 2017

also, and maybe i'm naive/missing something: if this became a paid-for project, what would the incentive be for non-team-members to contribute? and how would revenue be split across team members? etc. anyway, i believe this idea was nixed ages ago, so no point in dredging it out further...

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Bootstrap is always going to be open source. I'll put that to bed right now :).

Also going to lock this to prevent it going off the rails again. This issue isn't about that—it's to let folks know our plans for how we'll ship this stuff. See the opening comment for an updated plan—I've made some decisions on URL structure and what not with #22716 in progress.

Getting closer!

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mdo commented May 31, 2017

Bootstrap is always going to be open source. I'll put that to bed right now :).

Also going to lock this to prevent it going off the rails again. This issue isn't about that—it's to let folks know our plans for how we'll ship this stuff. See the opening comment for an updated plan—I've made some decisions on URL structure and what not with #22716 in progress.

Getting closer!

@twbs twbs locked and limited conversation to collaborators May 31, 2017

@mdo mdo closed this Aug 11, 2017

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