This language is not as advertised

[gingerBill]

This language is not as advertised

This language does not do over 90% of what is advertised. Most of what is advertised is not coherent with most of the claims you have stated. With the new release of the playground, most of the examples in the docs fail, even many of the extremely basic ones.

• You appear to do very basic tokenization/lexing which you use to naïvely convert the code into C or C++ (through testing of the playground)
• The converter program does virtually no semantic checking other than the most basic type checking
• Name lookups do not respect nested scopes within functions and caused the playground to crash
• There is poor checking for certain characters and tokens you disallow
• Record types and their methods must be declared before use, the type before the methods
• The playground was crashing frequently
• The playground is extremely insecure

You have previously claimed that the V compiler uses no AST. However, most of the features that you claim would require a form of AST to even work, including generics and interfaces. An AST is an abstract syntax tree, which means that it just stores data about the syntax that is in a tree-like format. It's pretty much impossible to not have unless you have a very basic language or doing naïve transformations into another similar language.

---

You claim that the language has no runtime but the following require a runtime:

• All arrays are dynamic
• println
• Threads with go
• Synchronization of threads with runtime.wait()
• Automatic memory management

---

Things that are currently broken:
- Automatic imports 
- Interface method calls
- Interfaces have to be declared with `type Foo interface {` 
- Foo{a,b} syntax (use Foo{a:a, b:b}) 
- Closures
- a[i].field
- Locks (lock {}). Use sync.Mutex for now. 
- Enums 

Disabled features:
- Generics 

Why was the playground lacking a lot of basic functionality? If most of these extremely basic features are broken, how could you have made any software in this language other than basic things? -- e.g. Fibonacci examples.

Software claimed to be built in V:

• Volt
• Filey
• Vid
• gitly
• Hot code reloading

Claimed C/C++ Translations into V:

• DOOM
• DOOM 3
• LevelDB
• SQLite

---

Claims from your "compare" page:

- No null

How would you handle pointers?! In your documentation, you demonstrate that pointers exist. This means that no null is false. Pointers also crashed the playground.

- Much stricter vfmt

And when you mean stricter, what does that mean? It was also failing quite often even on basic code in the playground.

- Cheaper interfaces without dynamic dispatch

So how do they work? Is it just static dispatch?

---

What you have promised does not even come close to what is delivered.

[SuperDisk]

How entitled do you have to be to scream at someone that his language isn't ready enough for you yet? Why is this a github issue?

[SuperDisk]

Yeah I get it, it just disheartens me to see such harsh rebuke, especially because he's repeatedly said it's a pre-alpha language and a lot of goals haven't been implemented yet. Seems to me like the playground was put out early because everyone was clamoring for it and his reward? A github issue decrying him as a scam artist. Like jeez folks, it's not like he stole your money or that much of your time.

[medvednikov]

Hi,

Like the disclaimer says, the language is in the pre-alpha stage. I've been developing it in parallel with Volt, what works for me, a single developer, is certainly not going to work for thousands. There are major things missing/broken that I've just been avoiding (for example, you can't do foo[i].bar).

All arrays are dynamic
println
Threads with go
Synchronization of threads with runtime.wait()
Automatic memory management

All of these things are implemented and they do not require runtime with the way I implemented them. Threads right now are simple OS threads, runtime.wait() just joins them. Automatic memory management means the language inserts free() calls at compile time. Why do dynamic arrays require runtime? Same with println. The language looks at the type of the println argument and generates a call to str() during compilation.

The playground was crashing frequently

Of course it was, this is a pre-alpha release, being tested thousands of times in a span of one hour.

The playground is extremely insecure

Please file a report. I already found and fixed an issue with imports.

how could you have made any software in this language other than basic things?

Volt (volt-app.com) and Vid editor, my primary editor for the last 1.5 years (github.com/medvednikov/vid) are written 100% in V. That's more than 100,000 lines of code.

The compiler itself is written in V. The C/C++ translator is written in V. I think these are pretty complex applications.

How would you handle pointers?! In your documentation, you demonstrate that pointers exist. This means that no null is false.

No it doesn't. You can't have a null pointer in V, since they are required to be initialized by the compiler: a := &b. If you have a struct field with a pointer, and it's not initialized during creation, the compiler will automatically allocate memory for it.

V can work with C code, of course C has null pointers, so you can get null bugs there, just like in any language calling C code.

It [vmt] was also failing quite often even on basic code in the playground.

Report, and I will fix it.

Several other issues you mention (like "name lookups do not respect nested scopes") need literally a couple of lines of code. Do you really think I'm not going to fix those for a non pre-alpha build? :)

Software built in V isn't Software I would like to build in V.

See above. It actually is built in V.

I see you are the creator of Odin. Very strange to see a post from you with so many wrong accusations.

[zhaytee]

@medvednikov Well handled!

Also, thanks for your efforts on V. Very much looking forward to seeing it grow.

[aedans]

I don't think the problem is that the language isn't finished. As you stated, it's in pre-alpha, and it's unreasonable to expect the language to be completely bug free. I think it's even conceivable to write software like Volt in V if you use mostly simpler features; people often underestimate how much you can do with just functions and if statements.

The problem is that you claim that the language can do incredible things that only a very mature compiler should be able to do. Compiling the entirety of doom 3 in 0.5 seconds is the most offensive of these, but several others like hot code reloading and C++ translation are just as hard to believe. A compiler which can do these things should not also fail on basic examples.

Making this all even harder to believe is that everything is closed source. If you provided the source for doom3.v and other complex programs this would be a lot easier to believe, but right now it looks like you're making impossible promises and hiding it all behind, "coming in X months."

Overall, I don't believe you are straight up lying for traffic, but the disconnect between the way you are presenting V and what we can actually see makes me and many others extremely suspicious of what you are doing, especially when you have an active Patreon that you are directing people towards.

If you want people to believe you, unify your presentation with our view, either by presenting the language as it is (not how it could be), or by showing us a working implementation for these complex programs. We are not your enemy -- we want V to be everything you present it as and more -- but it is difficult trust you with the current state of the language.

Edit: deleting criticism is extremely suspicious as well.

Best regards.

[medvednikov]

like hot code reloading ... are just as hard to believe.

the home page literally has a link to a demo: https://volt-app.com/img/lang.webm

Compiling the entirety of doom 3 in 0.5 seconds is the most offensive of these

an article on translating Doom will be up in a couple of days

If you provided the source for doom3.v

I will, in the article mentioned above

deleting criticism is extremely suspicious as well.

I deleted 2 posts that were repeating the same points and contained misinformation. Now that I posted a response and addressed most of the claims, no more posts will be deleted.

[Kelimion]

Excuse you? In no way did my comments contain misinformation. And if the main thing that was wrong with them according to you was that they repeated things, you could've left them up.

Apart from which, speech tends to be countered by speech, not censorship.

[medvednikov]

Jeroen, you repeat the same misinformation over and over again:

> Not only that, software purported to have been written in this language or transpiled to it, far exceeds the complexity of even the simple things that failed in the playground. > It's another to state complex software has already been written in this language > Software built in V isn't Software I would like to build in V

I've given multiple examples of complex applications written in V: V itself, Volt, Vid, C/C++ translator. I even have a freaking OpenGL video player for Twitch (part of Volt). Or do you think I'm lying and writing them all in C? So what's the plan? Earn $200 by scamming and ruin my reputation for ever in April?

> Language features requiring an AST and runtime are claimed to be part of the language but at the same time it's claimed the language requires no runtime and doesn't use an AST.

This is again a repeat of the same misinformation. There's no AST, there's no runtime, yet things work. Do you have a response to my earlier post addressing everything other than a thumbs down?

[Kelimion]

Asking for proof of questionable claims by you is not misinformation.

You keep claiming - yet again right now - that there are examples of complex applications written in V. Just stating that you've written a piece of software in this language doesn't constitute proof. Even so everyone here is supposed to believe that in the current state of the compiler, you cannot address a member of a struct in an array, but Doom3 can be transpiled to it and works?

Your hot reloading video has a conspicuous pause between saving the file and the color changing. It changes always when it hits a border, not in response to saving the file.

Is it also misinformation that you claim all these features and compare them against other languages as if they were already implemented? No, because that is what you do. You didn't call it a roadmap, did you?

And to address your remark to Bill, I see you are the creator of Odin. Very strange to see a post from you with so many wrong accusations.

Yes, it's almost as if they're not wrong?

[medvednikov]

You keep claiming - yet again right now - that there are examples of complex applications written in V. Just stating that you've written a piece of software in this language doesn't constitute proof.

OK, again let's say I lie and I didn't write it in V. What's the plan, can you tell me?

Is it also misinformation that you claim all these features and compare them against other languages as if they were already implemented?

What features I compare against are not implemented? Point{x,y} syntax?

Yes, it's almost as if they're not wrong?

Yes, almost every single sentence is wrong, misinformation, or an outright lie (like 90% of features missing, AST being required, println requiring runtime (??), dynamic arrays requiring runtime (??), etc)

It also says

If most of these extremely basic features are broken, how could you have made any software in this language other than basic things?

Indeed, how could I implement everything without automatic imports and enums?

[medvednikov]

Your hot reloading video has a conspicuous pause between saving the file and the color changing. It changes always when it hits a border, not in response to saving the file.

I recorded it a year ago. I don't remember the issue, but indeed I couldn't make the file watcher work correctly, and somehow forced the reload when it reached the edge.

I haven't been using hot reloading when developing Volt, because it's harder to make it work with GUI apps, but it's possible and I will fix it.

This is pre-alpha software, things aren't 100% stable, this is normal.

[medvednikov]

Asking for proof of questionable claims by you is not misinformation.

You aren't asking for proof. You are making strong claims that are simply not true.

I can't give you proof right now: Volt is closed source, V and Vid will be released in June.

So you either believe me or you don't, we'll see who is right in June. But please don't call me a liar, scammer and spread misinformation.

[medvednikov]

you cannot address a member of a struct in an array, but Doom3 can be transpiled to it and works?

V temporarily allows to insert C code with #. I hate this feature and have been slowly cleaning up all C code. The released version of V will not have # at all.

For missing/broken features I simply use # for now.