New issue

Have a question about this project? Sign up for a free GitHub account to open an issue and contact its maintainers and the community.

By clicking “Sign up for GitHub”, you agree to our terms of service and privacy statement. We’ll occasionally send you account related emails.

Already on GitHub? Sign in to your account

[css-multicol] Text describing column boxes as block container boxes #1738

Closed
rachelandrew opened this Issue Aug 18, 2017 · 2 comments

Comments

2 participants
@rachelandrew
Contributor

rachelandrew commented Aug 18, 2017

On 1 Dec 2011, Anton Prowse raised a bunch of issues with the Multicol CR. One of which was:

Section 2 (The multi-column model) says:

Column boxes act as the containing block for their content.

Various specs use similar wording, but it's always clumsy. Obviously they only act as the containing block for descendants for whom they are the containing block. We could say something like "Column boxes participate in the tree of containing blocks", but there's currently no such concept described anywhere (despite existing conceptually), so instead I suggest we just say:
Column boxes are block container boxes.
Then the fact that they form part of the tree of containing blocks falls out naturally and doesn't need explicitly stating.

There was a minor edit made to the spec - email 9 Jan 2012. This seems to be the current wording.

Issue was returned to 15 April 2013 with a suggestion that the wording be revised again, as far as I can see that didn't happen and I'm posting this to see if anyone has an opinion on the matter now.

This is one of a list of legacy issues I'm digging out of the www-style archives.

@rachelandrew rachelandrew self-assigned this Aug 18, 2017

@rachelandrew rachelandrew added this to Needs discussion in css-multicol-1 Aug 19, 2017

@rachelandrew

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@rachelandrew

rachelandrew Nov 7, 2017

Contributor

Relevant section of the spec is here https://www.w3.org/TR/css-multicol-1/#the-multi-column-model the wording is under Example 9:

"Column boxes are block container boxes. That is, column boxes behave like block-level, table cell, and inline-block boxes as per CSS 2.1, section 10.1, item 2 [CSS21]. However, column boxes do not establish block container boxes for elements with ''position: fixed or position: absolute''."

In the email of 15 April are suggestions to reword this, excerpt as follows, I hope I am attributing quotes to correct people, but I thought I'd save everyone digging through this:

Anton Prowse:

"I feel strongly that the second sentence should be omitted. (But by all means put a link back to CSS21 9.2.1 to remind people what a block container box.) I don't know why I didn't pick up on it the first time around. I don't even know what it's trying to say exactly, but I'm pretty sure it's trying to summarize behaviour that's defined in CSS21. "

Håkon Wium Lie, responded:

" I think it's trying to anchor column boxes to somthing that implementors presumably know (CSS21). Do you still feel strongly about this? I think the first sentence says it all and the the second can be removed, but implementors may think otherwise."

Anton Prowse also wrote:

"This is a dangerous thing to do and our fingers already have been burnt many times due to making unfaithful summaries in normative text (most notably between different sections of the CSS21 spec!).

Ditto with the third sentence. (I'm presuming that you do want CSS21 behaviour, so if it does become possible to position a column box in future then a positioned column box will in fact establish the containing block for its absolutely positioned children.)

Deleting these sentences would mean that the notion of containing block isn't even mentioned in the spec. Far from that being a problem, it's exactly what's required. Leave it to CSS21 and > CSS3-box to describe what containing blocks are all about."

Håkon Wium Lie responded:

"I also think the third sentence can be removed, yes.
Any objections?"

The question to the WG is do we want to remove either or both of these sentences as per this discussion?

Contributor

rachelandrew commented Nov 7, 2017

Relevant section of the spec is here https://www.w3.org/TR/css-multicol-1/#the-multi-column-model the wording is under Example 9:

"Column boxes are block container boxes. That is, column boxes behave like block-level, table cell, and inline-block boxes as per CSS 2.1, section 10.1, item 2 [CSS21]. However, column boxes do not establish block container boxes for elements with ''position: fixed or position: absolute''."

In the email of 15 April are suggestions to reword this, excerpt as follows, I hope I am attributing quotes to correct people, but I thought I'd save everyone digging through this:

Anton Prowse:

"I feel strongly that the second sentence should be omitted. (But by all means put a link back to CSS21 9.2.1 to remind people what a block container box.) I don't know why I didn't pick up on it the first time around. I don't even know what it's trying to say exactly, but I'm pretty sure it's trying to summarize behaviour that's defined in CSS21. "

Håkon Wium Lie, responded:

" I think it's trying to anchor column boxes to somthing that implementors presumably know (CSS21). Do you still feel strongly about this? I think the first sentence says it all and the the second can be removed, but implementors may think otherwise."

Anton Prowse also wrote:

"This is a dangerous thing to do and our fingers already have been burnt many times due to making unfaithful summaries in normative text (most notably between different sections of the CSS21 spec!).

Ditto with the third sentence. (I'm presuming that you do want CSS21 behaviour, so if it does become possible to position a column box in future then a positioned column box will in fact establish the containing block for its absolutely positioned children.)

Deleting these sentences would mean that the notion of containing block isn't even mentioned in the spec. Far from that being a problem, it's exactly what's required. Leave it to CSS21 and > CSS3-box to describe what containing blocks are all about."

Håkon Wium Lie responded:

"I also think the third sentence can be removed, yes.
Any objections?"

The question to the WG is do we want to remove either or both of these sentences as per this discussion?

@css-meeting-bot

This comment has been minimized.

Show comment
Hide comment
@css-meeting-bot

css-meeting-bot Nov 7, 2017

Member

The Working Group just discussed Text describing column boxes as block container boxes, and agreed to the following resolutions:

  • RESOLVED: Remove sentence 2 and 3 and adding clarification about the principle box.
The full IRC log of that discussion <eae> Topic: Text describing column boxes as block container boxes
<eae> https://github.com//issues/1738
<eae> github issue: https://github.com//issues/1738
<eae> rachelandrew: This is another text change for column boxes. Basically there is a section in the spec, example 9, about container boxes.
<eae> rachelandrew: There was a proposal to have the second sentence to be omitted.
<eae> rachelandrew: There was no objections yet no edit took place. Looks like it was dropped.
<eae> rachelandrew: Idea of containing block not defined in spec.
<eae> TabAtkins: I agree, go ahead and kill second sentence
<TabAtkins> Kill "That is, column boxes behave like block-level, table cell, and inline-block boxes as per CSS 2.1, section 10.1, item 2 [CSS21]."
<eae> rachelandrew: Should we remove either or both of these sentences?
<eae> florian: Remove 2nd and 3rd?
<eae> fantasai: I don't think we should remove the 3rd.
<eae> TabAtkins: Default case applies.
<eae> florian: This might be read as shutting down other properties that could apply unless specified.
<eae> fantasai: Behavior when you apply position relative needs to be defined
<eae> TabAtkins: doesn't turn column boxes into abs containig blocks is fine, makes sense, should be explicitly informative. As written it is bad and should be removed.
<eae> rachelandrew: A clarification would be useful.
<eae> fantasai: It might help to clarify that the multicol container is the principle box, not mentioned in spec, and that the column boxes are anonymous.
<eae> fantasai: For example pos relative doesn't apply to column box.
<eae> rachelandrew: Makes sense to me
<eae> Rossen: Super good clarification. We all know this yet it isn't mentioned anywhere.
<eae> Rossen: Common source of confusion
<eae> rachelandrew: What are we suggesting to remove here? Turn third sentence into a note?
<eae> TabAtkins: Yes, and also make it clear that it clarifies that nothing you do on the column box...
<eae> fantasai: The part about being a principle box should go in sentence two. We should fix that.
<eae> fantasai: We don't have a good term for that box now, we refer to it as the multicol element, separate issue.
<eae> gregwhitworth: One thing that would be beneficial is having an example in there. Saying principle box isn't necessarily going to help web developers clarify.
<eae> Rossen: Similar to the table example in 2.1, speaks volumnes when people see it
<eae> Proposed resolution: Remove sentence 2 and 3 and adding clarification about the principle box.
<eae> RESOLVED: Remove sentence 2 and 3 and adding clarification about the principle box.
Member

css-meeting-bot commented Nov 7, 2017

The Working Group just discussed Text describing column boxes as block container boxes, and agreed to the following resolutions:

  • RESOLVED: Remove sentence 2 and 3 and adding clarification about the principle box.
The full IRC log of that discussion <eae> Topic: Text describing column boxes as block container boxes
<eae> https://github.com//issues/1738
<eae> github issue: https://github.com//issues/1738
<eae> rachelandrew: This is another text change for column boxes. Basically there is a section in the spec, example 9, about container boxes.
<eae> rachelandrew: There was a proposal to have the second sentence to be omitted.
<eae> rachelandrew: There was no objections yet no edit took place. Looks like it was dropped.
<eae> rachelandrew: Idea of containing block not defined in spec.
<eae> TabAtkins: I agree, go ahead and kill second sentence
<TabAtkins> Kill "That is, column boxes behave like block-level, table cell, and inline-block boxes as per CSS 2.1, section 10.1, item 2 [CSS21]."
<eae> rachelandrew: Should we remove either or both of these sentences?
<eae> florian: Remove 2nd and 3rd?
<eae> fantasai: I don't think we should remove the 3rd.
<eae> TabAtkins: Default case applies.
<eae> florian: This might be read as shutting down other properties that could apply unless specified.
<eae> fantasai: Behavior when you apply position relative needs to be defined
<eae> TabAtkins: doesn't turn column boxes into abs containig blocks is fine, makes sense, should be explicitly informative. As written it is bad and should be removed.
<eae> rachelandrew: A clarification would be useful.
<eae> fantasai: It might help to clarify that the multicol container is the principle box, not mentioned in spec, and that the column boxes are anonymous.
<eae> fantasai: For example pos relative doesn't apply to column box.
<eae> rachelandrew: Makes sense to me
<eae> Rossen: Super good clarification. We all know this yet it isn't mentioned anywhere.
<eae> Rossen: Common source of confusion
<eae> rachelandrew: What are we suggesting to remove here? Turn third sentence into a note?
<eae> TabAtkins: Yes, and also make it clear that it clarifies that nothing you do on the column box...
<eae> fantasai: The part about being a principle box should go in sentence two. We should fix that.
<eae> fantasai: We don't have a good term for that box now, we refer to it as the multicol element, separate issue.
<eae> gregwhitworth: One thing that would be beneficial is having an example in there. Saying principle box isn't necessarily going to help web developers clarify.
<eae> Rossen: Similar to the table example in 2.1, speaks volumnes when people see it
<eae> Proposed resolution: Remove sentence 2 and 3 and adding clarification about the principle box.
<eae> RESOLVED: Remove sentence 2 and 3 and adding clarification about the principle box.

@rachelandrew rachelandrew moved this from Needs discussion to Needs action in css-multicol-1 Nov 8, 2017

@rachelandrew rachelandrew moved this from Needs action to Done in css-multicol-1 Dec 5, 2017

Sign up for free to join this conversation on GitHub. Already have an account? Sign in to comment