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HttT S17: Explain the lava mechanic #3473

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jostephd commented Aug 17, 2018

Gameplay is not affected. The player can still lose units to {EXPAND_LAVA}.

The [story] text mentions volcanic fumes and unsteady footing, but an additional mention in dialog should make it clear that there's a custom gameplay mechanic in this scenario.

I welcome critique of the dialog, particularly of the dwarvish line.

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I'd change "very floor" to just "floor" for Li'sar's dialogue.

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Pentarctagon commented Aug 17, 2018

I'd change "very floor" to just "floor" for Li'sar's dialogue.

HttT S17: Explain the lava mechanic
Gameplay is not affected. The player can still lose units to {EXPAND_LAVA}.
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Changed.

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jostephd commented Aug 17, 2018

Changed.

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I think this is a good idea, but the dwarf's explanation seems a bit off. I think it needs to be fixed, though I'm not sure if my proposed changes are the best ones.

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CelticMinstrel Aug 22, 2018

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Would "ours" be spelled with an apostrophe (like "o'" for "of") in dwarf speech?

Uh, what? "ours" is a single word, there's no case where you'd put an apostrophe in it. "o' ours" is fine though, of course.

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CelticMinstrel commented Aug 22, 2018

Would "ours" be spelled with an apostrophe (like "o'" for "of") in dwarf speech?

Uh, what? "ours" is a single word, there's no case where you'd put an apostrophe in it. "o' ours" is fine though, of course.

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By the way, I like the change to "toiled". (I would've edited this into the previous comment but GitHub's not working properly for me right now.)

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CelticMinstrel commented Aug 22, 2018

By the way, I like the change to "toiled". (I would've edited this into the previous comment but GitHub's not working properly for me right now.)

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Uh, what? "ours" is a single word, there's no case where you'd put an apostrophe in it. "o' ours" is fine though, of course.

I meant to ask if one of the letters in "ours" should be replaced by an apostrophe in text spoken by dwarves, like "of" becomes "o'". I'll leave it as "ours" then.

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jostephd commented Aug 22, 2018

Uh, what? "ours" is a single word, there's no case where you'd put an apostrophe in it. "o' ours" is fine though, of course.

I meant to ask if one of the letters in "ours" should be replaced by an apostrophe in text spoken by dwarves, like "of" becomes "o'". I'll leave it as "ours" then.

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Oh, yeah... don't think I've ever seen that done with "ours" before.

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CelticMinstrel commented Aug 22, 2018

Oh, yeah... don't think I've ever seen that done with "ours" before.

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I like the po comment for 'awesome'. It does tend to get overused as a superlative in casual English speech - the actual meaning is 'instilling awe' whether in a good way or bad. :)

I also like the reasoning for using Li'sar as the fall-back over Delfador. She has just as much, if not more, of a motivation to get the Sceptre, plus it does seem a progression in her change of opinion with respect to Konrad and his friends.

The dwarf line reads well to me - I only feel that 'o' ours' sounds awkward to pronounce, even considering the Scots-like accent that dwarves are portrayed as having.

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Wedge009 commented Aug 23, 2018

I like the po comment for 'awesome'. It does tend to get overused as a superlative in casual English speech - the actual meaning is 'instilling awe' whether in a good way or bad. :)

I also like the reasoning for using Li'sar as the fall-back over Delfador. She has just as much, if not more, of a motivation to get the Sceptre, plus it does seem a progression in her change of opinion with respect to Konrad and his friends.

The dwarf line reads well to me - I only feel that 'o' ours' sounds awkward to pronounce, even considering the Scots-like accent that dwarves are portrayed as having.

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Thanks for saying that :)

About "ours" I tend to agree but I'm not sure how to change it to reflect the accent. As an alternative to that, how about changing "nae enemy o' ours" to "nae living creature"? It would work well with the next sentence being a dwarf speaking about the living bedrock.

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jostephd commented Aug 23, 2018

Thanks for saying that :)

About "ours" I tend to agree but I'm not sure how to change it to reflect the accent. As an alternative to that, how about changing "nae enemy o' ours" to "nae living creature"? It would work well with the next sentence being a dwarf speaking about the living bedrock.

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I think the living creature phrasing works well as an alternative.

I just noticed Konrad's opening exclamation - I suppose it works, but 'Can you tell its source?' sounds a little awkward to me. Would you consider a simpler (or more natural) 'Do you know what that is?' instead?

I don't have any other concerns at this point and I'd be okay with merging it. Just wonder what celmin sees is still outstanding.

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Wedge009 commented Aug 23, 2018

I think the living creature phrasing works well as an alternative.

I just noticed Konrad's opening exclamation - I suppose it works, but 'Can you tell its source?' sounds a little awkward to me. Would you consider a simpler (or more natural) 'Do you know what that is?' instead?

I don't have any other concerns at this point and I'd be okay with merging it. Just wonder what celmin sees is still outstanding.

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Nothing, just forgot to click "approve".

I think "Do you know what that is?" might seem less appropriate in the game's style, and the version without "do" ("know you/ye what that is?") might be a bit weird too.

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CelticMinstrel commented Aug 23, 2018

Nothing, just forgot to click "approve".

I think "Do you know what that is?" might seem less appropriate in the game's style, and the version without "do" ("know you/ye what that is?") might be a bit weird too.

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It's Konrad not a dwarf... I recall Konrad spoke with a more simple style, but my memory could be wrong. If that doesn't work, how about 'Who goes there?' Then that would flow into the dwarf explaining that it's not a living creature, etc.

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Wedge009 commented Aug 23, 2018

It's Konrad not a dwarf... I recall Konrad spoke with a more simple style, but my memory could be wrong. If that doesn't work, how about 'Who goes there?' Then that would flow into the dwarf explaining that it's not a living creature, etc.

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I'd be happy to change Konrad's line. I'm not sure about "Who goes there?": it would fit perfectly with the replies, but I don't know if Konrad would think the noise was caused by something living. If he wouldn't, then "What goes on here?" might work.

edit: Maybe "That noise was made by no troll! What manner of creature [is ahead / makes such noises]?". The part in brackets should be replaced by something in the game's style.

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jostephd commented Aug 23, 2018

I'd be happy to change Konrad's line. I'm not sure about "Who goes there?": it would fit perfectly with the replies, but I don't know if Konrad would think the noise was caused by something living. If he wouldn't, then "What goes on here?" might work.

edit: Maybe "That noise was made by no troll! What manner of creature [is ahead / makes such noises]?". The part in brackets should be replaced by something in the game's style.

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Wedge009 Aug 24, 2018

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Who's an authority on Konrad?

'What manner of creature...' sounds good to me. Perhaps something like 'What manner of creature lies within these depths?'

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Wedge009 commented Aug 24, 2018

Who's an authority on Konrad?

'What manner of creature...' sounds good to me. Perhaps something like 'What manner of creature lies within these depths?'

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While away from keyboard I independently came up with "What manner of beast makes its den in these forsaken caves". What do you prefer?

And by the way, thanks everyone for all the feedback, the dialog is much improved for it 😀

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jostephd commented Aug 24, 2018

While away from keyboard I independently came up with "What manner of beast makes its den in these forsaken caves". What do you prefer?

And by the way, thanks everyone for all the feedback, the dialog is much improved for it 😀

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Wedge009 Aug 24, 2018

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Sounds good to me! If no-one else objects I can merge it once you've made that change. And no worries.

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Wedge009 commented Aug 24, 2018

Sounds good to me! If no-one else objects I can merge it once you've made that change. And no worries.

HttT S17: Further updates to dialog
- Improve Konrad's line
- Use variant portraits for Konrad and Li'sar
- Update the mage's dialog to match the dwarf's
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Pushed that and a couple of minor changes - f7d8d0d

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jostephd commented Aug 24, 2018

Pushed that and a couple of minor changes - f7d8d0d

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Any particular reason why you want Li'sar's sword in the picture? I'm not concerned by it, just curious.

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Wedge009 commented Aug 24, 2018

Any particular reason why you want Li'sar's sword in the picture? I'm not concerned by it, just curious.

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I just assumed she'd have her sword at the ready while exploring the cave. Most normal units' portraits show a weapon of some sort.

I was also thinking of adding an easter egg, an optional extra line that gets spoken before the dwarf/mage/lisar line, as a comic relief:

diff --git a/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/17_Scepter_of_Fire.cfg b/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/17_Scepter_of_Fire.cfg
index 784b880ca2..b8ca35aa40 100644
--- a/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/17_Scepter_of_Fire.cfg
+++ b/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/17_Scepter_of_Fire.cfg
@@ -627,6 +627,10 @@
             {KONRAD_VARIATION concerned}
             message=_ "That noise was made by no troll! What manner of beast makes its den in these forsaken caves?"
         [/message]
+        [message]
+            race=merman
+            message=_ "I wouldn’t know, milord. This cave is uncharted territory for me."
+        [/message]
         [if]
             [have_unit]
                 race=dwarf
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jostephd commented Aug 24, 2018

I just assumed she'd have her sword at the ready while exploring the cave. Most normal units' portraits show a weapon of some sort.

I was also thinking of adding an easter egg, an optional extra line that gets spoken before the dwarf/mage/lisar line, as a comic relief:

diff --git a/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/17_Scepter_of_Fire.cfg b/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/17_Scepter_of_Fire.cfg
index 784b880ca2..b8ca35aa40 100644
--- a/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/17_Scepter_of_Fire.cfg
+++ b/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/17_Scepter_of_Fire.cfg
@@ -627,6 +627,10 @@
             {KONRAD_VARIATION concerned}
             message=_ "That noise was made by no troll! What manner of beast makes its den in these forsaken caves?"
         [/message]
+        [message]
+            race=merman
+            message=_ "I wouldn’t know, milord. This cave is uncharted territory for me."
+        [/message]
         [if]
             [have_unit]
                 race=dwarf
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I haven't played with the updated portraits much (I'm accustomed to the 'cartoon'/'kiddy' versions of Konrad and Li'sar), but I'll take your word for it.

I can see the humour in it, give that you've indicated your intention here, but without that knowledge I would read this as a normal/serious line from the merman (if there is even a merman unit available at this point). Or is it because a player would need to have a merman unit recalled/recruited to see this line, which is unlikely given the terrain?

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Wedge009 commented Aug 24, 2018

I haven't played with the updated portraits much (I'm accustomed to the 'cartoon'/'kiddy' versions of Konrad and Li'sar), but I'll take your word for it.

I can see the humour in it, give that you've indicated your intention here, but without that knowledge I would read this as a normal/serious line from the merman (if there is even a merman unit available at this point). Or is it because a player would need to have a merman unit recalled/recruited to see this line, which is unlikely given the terrain?

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Yeah, I think it's indeed the latter; it's an easter egg because most people would never recall merfolk and thus wouldn't see the line.

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CelticMinstrel commented Aug 24, 2018

Yeah, I think it's indeed the latter; it's an easter egg because most people would never recall merfolk and thus wouldn't see the line.

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We've had, what, three or four scenes, so far, where Merfolk can help out a lot, I'd say it's not too unlikely that someone would be dragging one along, just in case. (This is especially true if we consider that the entire reason they are in the cast comes in the next scene.)

Personally, I like the idea of a Mer, if present, saying something humorous here. Perhaps even punch it up a bit with a hint? "I would not know, milord. Without a river running though it, such hot, dry places are anathema to my kind."

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GregoryLundberg commented Aug 24, 2018

We've had, what, three or four scenes, so far, where Merfolk can help out a lot, I'd say it's not too unlikely that someone would be dragging one along, just in case. (This is especially true if we consider that the entire reason they are in the cast comes in the next scene.)

Personally, I like the idea of a Mer, if present, saying something humorous here. Perhaps even punch it up a bit with a hint? "I would not know, milord. Without a river running though it, such hot, dry places are anathema to my kind."

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jostephd Aug 25, 2018

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@GregoryLundberg That would be perfect as a hint/tutorial but I'm not sure how well it works as humorous. How about extending it a little:

I wouldn't know, milord. Without a river running though it, such hot, dry places are anathema to my kind. Whatever monsters may abide in these depths, are known not to my kin.
Nor do I know, my most eccentric lord, what I am doing in a cave. No Mer has yet entered the caves under the mountain and lived to tell the tale. I would gladly die for you, milord, but I would that you didn't spend my life for nothing, looking for another dwarf to rescue when there is none.

I also tried to find alternatives in other directions but it's hard to have the Mer speculate about the cause of the noise without misleading the player into thinking the Mer can trigger a secret in this scenario, like it did with the Ulfserker earlier.

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jostephd commented Aug 25, 2018

@GregoryLundberg That would be perfect as a hint/tutorial but I'm not sure how well it works as humorous. How about extending it a little:

I wouldn't know, milord. Without a river running though it, such hot, dry places are anathema to my kind. Whatever monsters may abide in these depths, are known not to my kin.
Nor do I know, my most eccentric lord, what I am doing in a cave. No Mer has yet entered the caves under the mountain and lived to tell the tale. I would gladly die for you, milord, but I would that you didn't spend my life for nothing, looking for another dwarf to rescue when there is none.

I also tried to find alternatives in other directions but it's hard to have the Mer speculate about the cause of the noise without misleading the player into thinking the Mer can trigger a secret in this scenario, like it did with the Ulfserker earlier.

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I think that works really well in terms of humour and phrasing. It has my vote.

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Wedge009 commented Aug 25, 2018

I think that works really well in terms of humour and phrasing. It has my vote.

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Any last objections before merging?

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Wedge009 commented Sep 5, 2018

Any last objections before merging?

@Wedge009 Wedge009 merged commit 6772682 into wesnoth:1.14 Sep 8, 2018

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Thanks everyone!

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jostephd commented Sep 8, 2018

Thanks everyone!

@jostephd jostephd referenced this pull request Sep 8, 2018

Open

Forward port #3514

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@Wedge009 Just FYI - generally the preference is for the "Rebase and merge" option to be used, rather than creating a merge commit. Also, were you planning on forward porting this PR to master?

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Pentarctagon commented Sep 9, 2018

@Wedge009 Just FYI - generally the preference is for the "Rebase and merge" option to be used, rather than creating a merge commit. Also, were you planning on forward porting this PR to master?

Wedge009 added a commit that referenced this pull request Sep 12, 2018

#3473 (comment)
(cherry picked from commit bc52143)
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I only recall seeing merge commits, but I'll try to keep that in mind for next time.

Also, I wasn't getting my e-mails the last few days so didn't realise people were still talking about this. I've just copied this over to master as well now. Hope I did it the 'right' way.

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Wedge009 commented Sep 12, 2018

I only recall seeing merge commits, but I'll try to keep that in mind for next time.

Also, I wasn't getting my e-mails the last few days so didn't realise people were still talking about this. I've just copied this over to master as well now. Hope I did it the 'right' way.

jostephd added a commit to jostephd/wesnoth that referenced this pull request Oct 6, 2018

wesnoth#3473 (comment)
(cherry picked from commit bc52143)

jostephd added a commit to jostephd/wesnoth that referenced this pull request Oct 7, 2018

wesnoth#3473 (comment)
(cherry picked from commit bc52143)

(cherry-picked from commit c97fe98)

@jostephd jostephd referenced this pull request Oct 14, 2018

Open

Forward-port 1.14 to development #3614

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