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HttT: Avoid "Prince" as a direct address #4392

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commented Sep 27, 2019

As suggested in #4367.

Konrad is addressed sometimes by his units, sometimes by Kalenz/Delfador, and sometimes by leaders of allied or enemy sides. I tried to get it right but please review.

@nemaara, are there any further changes you want to make beyond these?

I've also renamed Konrad and Li'sar to Prince Konrad and Princess Li’sar, to make it clear why he's addressed as a highness.

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commented Sep 27, 2019

Maybe also this (Konrad/Li'sar addressing each other as "cousin" - being Garard's daughter and nephew):

diff --git a/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/18_A_Choice_Must_Be_Made.cfg b/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/18_A_Choice_Must_Be_Made.cfg
index 72eab56a5f5..3c65035c76d 100644
--- a/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/18_A_Choice_Must_Be_Made.cfg
+++ b/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/18_A_Choice_Must_Be_Made.cfg
@@ -253,7 +253,7 @@
         [/message]
         [message]
             speaker=Konrad
-            message= _ "And will you join us in seeking refuge with the North Elves, Li’sar?"
+            message= _ "And will you join us in seeking refuge with the North Elves, Cousin Li’sar?"
         [/message]
         [message]
             speaker="Li'sar"
diff --git a/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/21_Elven_Council.cfg b/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/21_Elven_Council.cfg
index f38e7155f89..11467740dc1 100644
--- a/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/21_Elven_Council.cfg
+++ b/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/scenarios/21_Elven_Council.cfg
@@ -195,7 +195,7 @@
                 [/message]
                 [message]
                     speaker=Konrad
-                    message= _ "Delfador! Li’sar has become our friend. I don’t want to fight her! As long as she rules well, what does it matter if she becomes queen?"
+                    message= _ "Delfador! Cousin Li’sar has become our friend. I don’t want to fight her! As long as she rules well, what does it matter if she becomes queen?"
                 [/message]
                 [message]
                     speaker=Delfador
diff --git a/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/utils/httt_utils.cfg b/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/utils/httt_utils.cfg
index 04dc30b4259..befed6f9cc6 100644
--- a/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/utils/httt_utils.cfg
+++ b/data/campaigns/Heir_To_The_Throne/utils/httt_utils.cfg
@@ -419,7 +419,7 @@ fire:  +10%"
         [/message]
         [message]
             speaker="Li'sar"
-            message= _ "My first use for it is going to be to help us get out of this hole! I hope you consider that wise."
+            message= _ "My first use for it is going to be to help us get out of this hole! I hope you consider that wise, cousin."
         [/message]
         [message]
             speaker=Delfador
@@ -68,7 +68,7 @@
[side]
type=Fighter
id=Konrad
name= _"Konrad"
name= _"Prince Konrad"

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@stevecotton

stevecotton Sep 27, 2019

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This seems weird to me - Konrad (and later Li'sar) are the player's protagonist, so there shouldn't be a formality to the user interface.

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@jostephd

jostephd Sep 27, 2019

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There is precedent for that in the names of Knights and Grand Knights in S2 and S23. Also in TRoW S1. (I only played S1 and S2 of TRoW)

I added it because I thought that otherwise it wouldn't be clear whom Gryphon Tender means when she says "Your Highness".

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@nemaara

nemaara Sep 28, 2019

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I'm with stevecotton on this one, adding the formality feels a bit odd in this instance, even if precedence exists elsewhere.

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@jostephd

jostephd Sep 28, 2019

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OK, I'll revert it to name= _"Konrad". I assume I should the same for Li'sar. Should I do that in all scenarios, or just in S16 and later when she is allied?

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@nemaara

nemaara Sep 28, 2019

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Might be interesting to have her as Princess Li'sar at first, then become just Li'sar when allied. I kind of like that.

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@jostephd

jostephd Sep 28, 2019

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Any other opinions before I implement this? This'll take a bit of time to implement/test because of all the different scenarios she appears in... and I'm not completely sure if her XP from S8 carries over to S16, if it does, it'll take a [modify_unit] to get this right.

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@stevecotton

stevecotton Sep 28, 2019

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Having her change from Princess Li'sar to Li'sar sounds good to me.

The name does carry over from S8 to S16, 7049367 included a bugfix for a typo in her name in the NEED_LISAR macro, which only had an effect if there wasn't already a copy of her from S8.

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commented Sep 28, 2019

While I agree with the changes to remove Princess as a direct address for Li'sar and Eryssa I feel less inclined to do so with Konrad (for Prince) although overall I think this is probably a good change. I think the difference is that Li'sar and Eryssa are actually princesses while Konrad is just a claimant to the throne and perhaps the speaker's deference to Konrad (or lack thereof) should be a reflection of their relationship with him. In particular for Delfador - and I think this is already picked up in the notes - I think the closeness of their familial bond (at least uncle/nephew or mentor/student if not father/son) can allow for some otherwise 'disrespectful' addressing.

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commented Sep 28, 2019

Regarding addressing is cousin - I think as Li'sar and Konrad come to understand and respect each other it is good that they even think of each other as family despite their initial hostility. However, I wouldn't have them address each other so formally, so:

  1. Perhaps just Cousin, instead of Cousin Li'sar.
  2. I'm fine with leaving it as Li'sar.
  3. Even to me it looks odd, but I think Cousin should be capitalised because it's being used in place of a proper noun here (same as 'watch out, Father!')
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commented Sep 28, 2019

Perhaps just Cousin, instead of Cousin Li'sar.

OK

I'm fine with leaving it as Li'sar.

How about something like Delfador! Li’sar is my cousin and our ally. I don’t want to fight her! ...?

Even to me it looks odd, but I think Cousin should be capitalised because it's being used in place of a proper noun here (same as 'watch out, Father!')

I agree, will do.

Note that there are several conversations between Konrad and Li'sar that I didn't change, where I kept them addressing each other by name. For example, there's this line, but probably a few others too, I didn't keep notes unfortunately.

@@ -419,7 +419,7 @@ fire: +10%"
[/message]
[message]
speaker="Li'sar"
message= _ "My first use for it is going to be to help us get out of this hole! I hope you consider that wise."
message= _ "My first use for it is going to be to help us get out of this hole! I hope you consider that wise, Cousin."

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@nemaara

nemaara Sep 28, 2019

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I'd say drop the "Cousin" on this one. I believe at this point in time, Li'sar is still less friendly with Konrad and co., so she'll refer to them somewhat brusquely.

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@jostephd

jostephd Sep 28, 2019

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Actually, the first thing Li'sar thing at the start of the next scenario is that she'd let Konrad live. She's becoming more friendly than she was at the start of S16, not less.

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@nemaara

nemaara Sep 28, 2019

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Not saying she's becoming less friendly, it's that she isn't very friendly with them at this point. Say on a scale of 1-10, her friendliness is increasing, but it's still at like a 3.

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@Wedge009

Wedge009 Sep 28, 2019

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When I read the three suggestions, I didn't realise this was a utils file and so I'm guessing it's actually used a lot earlier than the other two instances in S18 and S21. I agree that if it's that much earlier in the campaign then they would not yet have reached familiarity/friendliness.

However, the revision to the second instance suggested above sounds okay. While I like that Li'sar and Konrad become friendly over the course of the campaign, and these changes are nice, maybe we don't want to spend too much time stressing the cousin relationship because by the end we find out they are not related after all (making their subsequent marriage less awkward - real-world weddings between royal cousins notwithstanding).

I just had a thought: Delfador! Li’sar is my cousin - and more importantly, our ally. I don’t want to fight her! Noting that later on Konrad denies to the elves hinting that there may be more to their relationship than just being friends.

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@jostephd

jostephd Sep 29, 2019

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When I read the three suggestions, I didn't realise this was a utils file and so I'm guessing it's actually used a lot earlier than the other two instances in S18 and S21. I agree that if it's that much earlier in the campaign then they would not yet have reached familiarity/friendliness.

Your guess is wrong. That text is used in the victory event of S17 if Li'sar takes the Sceptre of Fire; it's right before the start event of S18 where one of the other changes is.

However, the revision to the second instance suggested above sounds okay. While I like that Li'sar and Konrad become friendly over the course of the campaign, and these changes are nice, maybe we don't want to spend too much time stressing the cousin relationship because by the end we find out they are not related after all (making their subsequent marriage less awkward - real-world weddings between royal cousins notwithstanding).

🤔 As you said, Konrad already mentions to the elves that Li'sar is his cousin. Does saying that to Delfador too qualify as "spending too much time stressing the cousin relationship"?

jostephd added 2 commits Sep 28, 2019
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commented Sep 29, 2019

Maybe also this (Konrad/Li'sar addressing each other as "cousin" - being Garard's daughter and nephew)

Using "cousin" as an honorific sounds really strange to me, so I'm against that. (Though I guess wedge already covered that...)

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commented Sep 29, 2019

Using "cousin" as an honorific sounds really strange to me, so I'm against that. (Though I guess wedge already covered that...)

It's used that way in Downton Abbey, if that counts for anything... And what about just Cousin without the given name after that? That's precedented.

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commented Sep 29, 2019

Using just "cousin" by itself sounds fine. That's also not an honorific.

(Note: It might be slightly non-standard to apply it to this use of "cousin" specifically, but I'm using "honorific" to refer to any use of a word such as "Prince" or "Mr" prior to a person's name.)

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commented Sep 30, 2019

Right.

Thanks for the feedback, then, everyone. I'll try to find time to re-do this PR in light of all the feedback. Until then, I'll not be merging this PR in its current state.

@jostephd jostephd self-assigned this Sep 30, 2019
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