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AoH balance. #4577

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AoH balance. #4577

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@Hejnewar
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Hejnewar commented Nov 16, 2019

Drakes:
Cost of Drake Warrior changed from 30 to 32
Cost of Drake Arbiter changed from 31 to 32
Cost of Drake Trasher changed from 31 to 32
Cost of Flare Drake changed from 35 to 33
Cost of Fire Drake changed from 35 to 35
Cost of Sky Drake changed from 30 to 28
Cost of Saurian Ambusher changed from 30 to 24
Cost of Saurian Oracle changed from 27 to 28
Cost of Saurian Soothsayer changed from 27 to 25

Knalgan Alliance:
Cost of Dwarvish Steelclad changed from 32 to 36
Cost of Dwarvish Thunderguard changed from 30 to 27
Cost of Dwarvish Stalwart changed from 32 to 30
Cost of Dwarvish Berserker changed from 33 to 30
Cost of Outlaw changed from 28 to 26
Cost of Trapper changed from 27 to 21
Cost of Gryphon Master changed from 37 to 38

Loyalists:
Cost of Swordsman changed from 25 to 29
Cost of Knight changed from 40 to 38
Cost of Lancer changed from 40 to 44
Cost of Dragoon changed from 34 to 27
Cost of Duelist changed from 32 to 29
Cost of Merman Warrior changed from 28 to 26
Cost of Ogre changed from 33 to 30
Cost of Lieutenant changed from 35 to 29

Northerners:
Cost of Goblin Knight changed from 32 to 28
Cost of Goblin Pillager changed from 32 to 28
Cost of Troll changed from 29 to 27
Cost of Troll Rocklobber changed from 29 to 25
Cost of Naga Warrior changed from 27 to 24
Cost of Orcish Crossbowman changed from 26 to 21
Cost of Orcish Slayer changed from 33 to 26

Rebels:
Cost of Elvish Hero changed from 30 to 26
Cost of Elvish Captain changed from 32 to 28
Cost of Elvish Marksman changed from 37 to 31
Cost of Elvish Ranger changed from 38 to 31
Cost of Elvish Rider changed from 31 to 32
Cost of Elvish Druid changed from 34 to 27
Cost of Elvish Sorceress changed from 34 to 32
Cost of Elder Wose changed from 31 to 27
Cost of Merman Spearman changed from 27 to 27, movement changed from 6 to 7 and hp changed from 40 to 43.
Merman Javelineer - movement increased by 1 and hp increased by 3 in order to match Merman Spearman.

Undead:
Cost of Revenant changed from 28 to 31
Cost of Deathblade changed from 28 to 34
Cost of Dark Sorcerer changed from 32 to 33
Cost of Blood Bat changed from 21 to 22

Cost of Red Mage changed from 40 to 38
Cost of White Mage changed from 40 to 38

Forum link:
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Hejnewar added 30 commits Nov 16, 2019
Hejnewar added 4 commits Nov 23, 2019
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nemaara left a comment

Overall: really big differences in cost (like >20%) may have some large effects on SP, so it would be better to avoid those if possible. I also agree with Soliton in that units leveling from the same unit should ideally have the same cost, and that we could tweak stats instead if we want them to cost the same (exceptions, level 2.5s, those can't level to 3).

Drakes:
Flare - this unit does have pretty terrible stats (even for a leader), so maybe this cost is justified. Still, it would be best to have it cost 35 like the fire drake, so would it be possible to look at changing its stats? I'd say increasing melee damage to 9-3, and improving hitpoints a bit.
Ambusher - this looks a bit too low to me. While its stats aren't that high, the unit's defenses are pretty good and the skirmisher ability is actually quite a hassle for SP. I'd make it cost 24 or even 25.

Knalgan Alliance:
Trapper - 21g looks a tad low to me. I'd value them closer to 23g, especially on account of their improved defenses.

Loyalists:
Lieutenant - 28 is a bit low to me, but like the Flare Drake, this unit's stats really aren't good. Still, can we do the same thing as what we did for Dunefolk and make it cost the same as the Swordsman (i.e. 29 g right now)? I'd like leaders to have at least the same cost as corresponding warriors, if not more.
Pikeman - I would like to see the Pikeman's cost raised too. Of course, the Swordsman is a better unit, so maybe some stats adjusting is necessary here. (Maybe make melee 11-3? Or nerf Swordsman a little).
Javelineer - same as above, it would be nice to see the cost be the same or higher than pikeman/swordsman. Stats adjusting may be needed (something like increasing ranged damage, possibly).
Dragoon - looks a bit low to me, since they have good resists and 9 moves. Maybe worth 28 or 29.

Northerners:
Crossbowman - I'd price it 1g higher at 22g. It's a pretty weak unit on its own, but still better than something like the Drake Burner.

Rebels:
Hero - cost looks a bit low to me. I think it's not really that much weaker than the Swordsman, so maybe it'd be worth 27g? It definitely needs to be below 29, but not sure it should be as low as 25.
Captain - it would be nice to make it and the hero cost the same, both at 27 (could reduce HP slightly).
Druid - I think this cost is justified, but again, would be nice to make it cost the same as sorceress. Maybe some buff is needed (maybe a hitpoints increase or even damage increase).

Undead: looks okay to me

Red Mage - looks a bit low, 8-4 magical is a pretty crazy strong attack. I'd value them at 37 or 38.
White Mage - not as strong as the red mage, but would be nice to have them cost the same (right now I think your price point at 2 below red mage is pretty accurate). I feel like the hitpoints are a bit low, so maybe it would be nice to buff that.

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Hejnewar commented Nov 24, 2019

Ambusher - I get that this unit can be very unpleasant for some factions but is he really that srong? Well I guess its better if unpleasant units would be seen less often but still.
Traper, Crossbowman and other cheap units - I think the biggest issue with cheap units is that people worry that they will be spamed left and right. I really dont see Crossbow or water units as spamable ones but I will think about Trapper a bit more.
Lieutenant - yeah.
Hero - also yeah but I would go with 26 rather than higher number.
Mages -they lack hp and red mage is neutral but well protected can do a lot of damage yes. I want to test them more since it's quite popular opinion.

Equal prices - well once we establish by how much unit a is stronger from unit b it will be easier to adjust them.

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CelticMinstrel commented Nov 24, 2019

I don't see the point of trying to make both advancements cost the same.

Hejnewar added 14 commits Dec 15, 2019
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Pentarctagon commented Dec 19, 2019

It looks like this can be merged, then?

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nemaara commented Dec 19, 2019

Probably still needs @soliton-'s approval.

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soliton- commented Dec 19, 2019

I've still not heard much explanation on why different costs for advancements of the same unit are necessary. I do not agree with the Lieutenant change and I've not heard anything at all on why the Merman movement change is a good idea.

It's not great that this lingers here. I've mentioned that one way to speed this up would be to only do uncontroversial changes as a first pass so it gets easier to discuss the remaining changes.

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soliton- commented Dec 19, 2019

To be clear I'm not blocking this if Krogen and EoZ are ok with it but so far I have not heard that.

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nemaara commented Dec 19, 2019

Okay, I don't intend to be the one merging this, since this affects MP. I'm hoping you can do it once things are cleared up.

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nemaara left a comment

Okay so as discussed on discord, some of the larger gold cost changes (anything more than 4g, generally speaking) will probably have a big effect on SP. Especially the two factions that got overall buffs (northerners and rebels) will be much stronger and throw off SP balance. We'll need to look at these more closely before committing.

I thought drakes and dwarves looked fine as is, so maybe worth making a separate PR to commit those first (possible exception is Flare having a different cost than Fire Drake, although I think this is justified given that it really is weaker).

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Hejnewar commented Dec 20, 2019

"I've still not heard much explanation on why different costs for advancements of the same unit are necessary. "
I tried but it would mess with default balance. In order to change prices I would need to buff these units and that would affect default.

"I've not heard anything at all on why the Merman movement change is a good idea."
For me it's the simplest way of buffing this unit while saving as much of its past self as possible.

"I do not agree with the Lieutenant change"
While leaders with leadership prefer to avoid combat (especially lieutenant because of his low hp) units with leadership actually fight and lieutenant has very weak body 7 hp less and 4 melee dmg (not counting traits) less than elvish capitan, his biggest saving grace is his 6mp.
That said I cant just price units with leadership based on only the fact that they have that ability, I expect them to fight and lieutenant can't fight very well / at all, after all chance of losing him if not covered is high, even more so if he is damaged and this unit is not cheap at all. Elvish Captain with his 7 more hp can afford to fight killing lets say 38 hp (9 dmg is quiet common in wesnoth) unit is not that easy while killing 31 hp unit is different story, this is most often one hit that matters. Probability of hitting 5/6 strikes (again using 9 dmg) on 40% is 23,3% but 4/6 strikes is 54,4% (elvish captain can also be used as tank if necessary with very low chance of his death (4,7% when 6/6 hits are needed)). That's quite a big difference. 6mp let's lieutenant support units the best but at the same time to make full use of it you need to invest more in lieutenant also in form of better protection another thing is that loyalist units gain more from leadership than elvish units that is why his price is still higher than that of elvish captain. I hope that this showed my point of view well enough.

Also I will remove troll rocklobber hp change just to not mess with leaders at all.

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