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Move the Orcish Shamans to core as a new unit line #7327
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data/core/units/orcs/Adept.cfg
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| level=1 | ||
| alignment=chaotic | ||
| advances_to=Orcish Shaman | ||
| cost=21 |
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Cost too high. Might be like 16 or 17.
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Good joke. 9.
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So you're requesting I set the cost to 9?
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9 seems more appropriate for a level 0 unit, but this is level 1?
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data/core/units/orcs/Shaman.cfg
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| race=orc | ||
| image="units/orcs/shaman.png" | ||
| profile="portraits/orcs/shaman.webp" | ||
| hitpoints=23 |
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HP value is really low for a level 2 mage type
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raised to 32 in 28ef66c
data/core/units/orcs/Shaman.cfg
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| level=2 | ||
| alignment=chaotic | ||
| advances_to=Orcish Sorcerer | ||
| cost=21 |
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Level 2, cost should be higher. maybe like 28-30?
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raised to 28 in 28ef66c
data/core/units/orcs/Shaman.cfg
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| description= _ "staff" | ||
| type=impact | ||
| range=melee | ||
| damage=6 |
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Why is this the same damage as the level 1?
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Good question… I did this awhile ago and only just today rebased it, so I don't remember all the details. Maybe it's because staff isn't their main weapon so I didn't feel like it needed an upgrade? Would you like me to raise it to 7?
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raised to 7 in 28ef66c
data/core/units/orcs/Sorcerer.cfg
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| village=30 | ||
| [/defense] | ||
| movement=5 | ||
| experience=200 |
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should be 150
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reduced to 150 in 28ef66c
data/core/units/orcs/Sorcerer.cfg
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| alignment=chaotic | ||
| advances_to=null | ||
| {AMLA_DEFAULT} | ||
| cost=28 |
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Cost could be higher, maybe 38-40?
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raised to 38 in 28ef66c
data/core/units/orcs/Sorcerer.cfg
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| description= _ "staff" | ||
| type=impact | ||
| range=melee | ||
| damage=5 |
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maybe make it 8-1?
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damage raised to 8 in 28ef66c
data/core/units/orcs/Sorcerer.cfg
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| description= _ "curse" | ||
| type=pierce | ||
| range=ranged | ||
| damage=9 |
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10-3 is okayish, 9-2 is too low
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raised to 9-3 in 28ef66c
| @@ -1,101 +1,16 @@ | |||
| #textdomain wesnoth-sota | |||
| [unit_type] | |||
| id=Orcish Shaman | |||
| id=SotA Orcish Shaman | |||
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Why is it necessary to use a copy of the unit? Can we not like change the unit to Orcish Adept?
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I think this stemmed from spotting some differences between the SotA shaman and the SotBE shaman, but I don't remember clearly.
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It should be standardized. If necessary we could use an [object] to change the damage.
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SotA one removed in 402215a
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Since there happened to be a discusion weather or not the unit should get stronger or be just a "lore unit" that is on purpose weak it would be good to decide that here, if it is just lore unit then it being on purpose weak is fine, if it is supposed to be just standard unit then I will mostlikely overwritre knyght ideas anyway (or at least some of them) within next 1 to 3 days. |
| damage=7 | ||
| number=2 | ||
| [specials] | ||
| {WEAPON_SPECIAL_DRAIN} |
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so, what do people think about giving the shamans the "Magical" weapon special in addition to Drain? I've given the shamans Magical in SotBE:EE at least; their ranged attack is called "curse" after all, which sounds pretty magical to me... (also I was tired of them missing a lot when testing)
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The saurians also have curse attack that's magical, for what it's worth.
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so yeah that seems to be a point in favor of making the curses magical here, too... I'm kind of wondering why it wasn't just made magical in the first place, though? Surely this isn't the first time someone's thinking of it? There must have been some sort of reason behind leaving it off, right?
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so yeah that seems to be a point in favor of making the curses magical here, too... I'm kind of wondering why it wasn't just made magical in the first place, though? Surely this isn't the first time someone's thinking of it? There must have been some sort of reason behind leaving it off, right?
Well, it was in SotBE and the Shamans might have been like that since it made it necessary to shield them
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so yeah that seems to be a point in favor of making the curses magical here, too... I'm kind of wondering why it wasn't just made magical in the first place, though? Surely this isn't the first time someone's thinking of it? There must have been some sort of reason behind leaving it off, right?
Well, it was in SotBE and the Shamans might have been like that since it made it necessary to shield them
OK, but if that's the case, then why give them drain, though? Drain is only useful if they get hurt, which can only happen if you're not shielding them... (also, even if you do give them magical, you still have to shield them anyways, since they're still relatively frail...)
| description= _"staff" | ||
| type=impact | ||
| range=melee | ||
| # Reduce the staff's physical damage to reflect age |
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Instead of reducing the unit's stats this way, how about giving the "Aged" trait "musthave" status for this particular unit? Seeing as it's "Old" and all... (if that makes it too weak, its base stats can be raised to compensate; the idea behind doing agedness as a trait is just for flavorfulness)
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However, if we're going with aged but otherwise a vanilla Orcish Sorcerer, I'd rather apply it directly to the specific unit in the scenario.
I'm not quite sure yet if we want to remove these stubs though.
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Well, yes, I also applied the trait directly to the unit in my case, too, but I also buffed the base stats as well to make up for it
I'm not quite sure what makes a unit "standard". I don't expect it to be added to any mainline faction though. But on the other hand, I think it should be generally a viable unit. |
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Orcish Shaman are in a pretty sad state both in lore and gameplay, but i greatly dsupport adding them to core. I would suggest drastically switching up their stats/lore. Obviously this will require approval from several sources, but I suggest turning the orc Shaman towards blood magic. This blood magic allows them to enter the spirit realm and pull spirits into an object and use them for various means. As far as damage it would look like either arcane or impact damage but using it would damage the Shaman himself. This would add to the understanding of Shaman being frail, as well as keep them from wanting to constantly be in battle, only doing so in times of great need. |
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After looking at the units they are so terrible that the stats should probably be written form 0 anyway. Even lvl 1 is bad (drain has no power here, this unit wont stay alive for long enough to use drain). Also what is proposed is still way way way too little to make them decent. |
So should I apply all of Knyghtmare's suggestions and we review again, or…? |
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So summarize:
Correct? If the intention is simply to make these units more easily available to UMC by moving them to core, then I don't think there should be any stat changes (affects campaign balance) or unit type ID changes (unnecessarily affects backwards compatibility). The SotBE and SotA Orcish Shaman units are also identical stat-wise, so there's no need to have a separate "SotA Orcish Shaman" and "SotA Orcish Shaman". |
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Your summary is correct. Given that I'm reworking three unlinked units into an advancement line, I think stat changes are absolutely required. Otherwise it would violate RIPLIB as the "Old Shaman" has the weakest attack in SotBE if I recall correctly. |
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In that case, either Yumi needs to be a reviewer (and likely there will be campaign changes required) or the new unit line needs to be entirely distinct from the campaign units. |
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I would personally prefer to avoid having to have completely separate units for SotBE, so I'll wait for her opinion on the matter. |
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I would like these units to be made female and redesigned. Just a stat change isn't enough because if we add these to core and then change them again later, that will be a nightmare for UMC. They should be in a good state lore-wise prior to being put in core so we don't run into the issue of changing the unit and causing UMC problems later.
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Just adding |
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Sprite and sounds aren't as much of an issue as unit design. UMC will enjoy having new sprites and anims and such, but if we redesign it later that might interfere with balancing things in how they use it or choices they make during scenario design. So I would say let's redesign it now if the goal is to move it to core. |
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Okay, so do you have any requests beyond |
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I just mistyped a |
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https://raw.githubusercontent.com/doofus-01/wesnoth-Bad_Moon_Rising/master/images/units/hrala.png Perhaps modify and adjust this one from BMR to fit Orcish Shaman (female one) ? |
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To be quite honest, I don't think we need to do much about the sprites. I think the existing sprites could even be fine with no changes, or only very minor changes. There's no need to change the hair, unless you can make out facial hair on the sprite, and the unfeminine chest could probably be explained by baggy clothing at such a small scale. There's also the fact that I think the sprites are cool and would prefer to stick to the same concept even if we're changing the gender. Tweaking them a little, sure, we can do that, but replacing them with something completely different? That would kind of defeat the point. The portraits, on the other hand, look quite distinctly masculine and would probably need to be discarded altogether and redone (unless of course this was going to be a two-gender unit line, but I don't think that's what Nemaara has in mind). Still, they could be redrawn on the same base concept. |
Swapping around stdout and stderr doesn't help, the problem is that |
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Ah, perfect. Just the answer I was looking for. |
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If this is going ahead, I'd prefer to have us use the same design/stats as in "The Deceiver's Gambit" (the DM replacement). Should I make a separate PR for that, or should we modify this one? Orcish Adept:Orcish Shaman:Orcish Sorceress: |
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How do those stats differ from these? Other than that, I believe we're missing sprites and portraits for the female version of the shamans. |
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Compared to the current stats in this PR, TDG's shamen have more hp, with resistance to cold/fire/arcane that scales as they level (lore explanation in description). The level 3 has a secondary draining melee attack, since the sprite has a clearly magical hand. TDG's shamen are also female-only, have normal orcishfoot movetypes (not the unusual village/fungus defense from this PR), and their ranged attacks have more strikes. And minor differences in damage, cost, XP, etc. And finally, I also wrote new descriptions for each shaman advancement. May need balancing, but I think this is an interesting direction to go in that clearly differentiates the shaman line from typical mages.
This PR already contains female sprites, unless there's some reason they're not useable. And I've used the portrait by Kordov that sevu posted in this PR. |
I guess I forgot about this, but it would be nice to have at least two portraits before merging – a level 1 portrait and a level 2/3 portrait. (A separate level 3 portrait would be nice too, but a lot of other lines don't have one anyway so whatever.) Someone will also need to rebase it and update the copyright information. I don't see anything I'd object to in your account of the differences. I would mildly prefer it to be a mixed-gender unit, for no other reason than that it feels like a shame to throw away the perfectly good sprites and portraits of the male versions. I wouldn't mind if it were somehow set so that the chance of getting a female one is higher than the chance of getting a male one, if that's supported (I haven't checked but maybe Side note: the plural of "shaman" is not "shamen". |
Something to put in the |
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@doofus-01 can you expand on what you meant about the graphics? |
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@Pentarctagon - what I meant was that this was a significant design decision being made by sevu's scavenging. |
This reverts commit acb4fc3.
Existing uses are now special-cased units based on the new line, rather than directly using the new line.
The images don't match this change but they can be tweaked later.
Add the aged trait to the SotBE sorceress
It might be that they do not follow same color map
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When force-pushing, please merge the commits such as "Whoops wrong directory". |

This allows addons to safely use them without having to copy the files into their own addon directory.
I've also converted them into a unit line, rather than keeping them as three separate and unrelated units.
Existing uses are now special-cased units based on the new line, rather than directly using the new line.