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Move the Orcish Shamans to core as a new unit line #7327

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CelticMinstrel
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This allows addons to safely use them without having to copy the files into their own addon directory.

I've also converted them into a unit line, rather than keeping them as three separate and unrelated units.

Existing uses are now special-cased units based on the new line, rather than directly using the new line.

level=1
alignment=chaotic
advances_to=Orcish Shaman
cost=21
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Cost too high. Might be like 16 or 17.

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Good joke. 9.

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So you're requesting I set the cost to 9?

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9 seems more appropriate for a level 0 unit, but this is level 1?

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reduced to 16 in 28ef66c, but then increased back to 20 in eec265c?

race=orc
image="units/orcs/shaman.png"
profile="portraits/orcs/shaman.webp"
hitpoints=23
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HP value is really low for a level 2 mage type

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raised to 32 in 28ef66c

level=2
alignment=chaotic
advances_to=Orcish Sorcerer
cost=21
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Level 2, cost should be higher. maybe like 28-30?

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raised to 28 in 28ef66c

description= _ "staff"
type=impact
range=melee
damage=6
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Why is this the same damage as the level 1?

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Good question… I did this awhile ago and only just today rebased it, so I don't remember all the details. Maybe it's because staff isn't their main weapon so I didn't feel like it needed an upgrade? Would you like me to raise it to 7?

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raised to 7 in 28ef66c

data/core/units/orcs/Shaman.cfg Show resolved Hide resolved
village=30
[/defense]
movement=5
experience=200
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should be 150

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reduced to 150 in 28ef66c

alignment=chaotic
advances_to=null
{AMLA_DEFAULT}
cost=28
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Cost could be higher, maybe 38-40?

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raised to 38 in 28ef66c

description= _ "staff"
type=impact
range=melee
damage=5
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maybe make it 8-1?

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damage raised to 8 in 28ef66c

description= _ "curse"
type=pierce
range=ranged
damage=9
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10-3 is okayish, 9-2 is too low

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raised to 9-3 in 28ef66c

@@ -1,101 +1,16 @@
#textdomain wesnoth-sota
[unit_type]
id=Orcish Shaman
id=SotA Orcish Shaman
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Why is it necessary to use a copy of the unit? Can we not like change the unit to Orcish Adept?

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I think this stemmed from spotting some differences between the SotA shaman and the SotBE shaman, but I don't remember clearly.

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It should be standardized. If necessary we could use an [object] to change the damage.

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SotA one removed in 402215a

@github-actions github-actions bot added Campaign (any) Deprecated tag, replaced with separate tags for each mainline campaign Graphics Issues that involve the graphics engine or assets. Units Issues that involve unit definitions or their implementation in the engine. labels Jan 25, 2023
@Hejnewar
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Since there happened to be a discusion weather or not the unit should get stronger or be just a "lore unit" that is on purpose weak it would be good to decide that here, if it is just lore unit then it being on purpose weak is fine, if it is supposed to be just standard unit then I will mostlikely overwritre knyght ideas anyway (or at least some of them) within next 1 to 3 days.

damage=7
number=2
[specials]
{WEAPON_SPECIAL_DRAIN}
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so, what do people think about giving the shamans the "Magical" weapon special in addition to Drain? I've given the shamans Magical in SotBE:EE at least; their ranged attack is called "curse" after all, which sounds pretty magical to me... (also I was tired of them missing a lot when testing)

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The saurians also have curse attack that's magical, for what it's worth.

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so yeah that seems to be a point in favor of making the curses magical here, too... I'm kind of wondering why it wasn't just made magical in the first place, though? Surely this isn't the first time someone's thinking of it? There must have been some sort of reason behind leaving it off, right?

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so yeah that seems to be a point in favor of making the curses magical here, too... I'm kind of wondering why it wasn't just made magical in the first place, though? Surely this isn't the first time someone's thinking of it? There must have been some sort of reason behind leaving it off, right?

Well, it was in SotBE and the Shamans might have been like that since it made it necessary to shield them

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so yeah that seems to be a point in favor of making the curses magical here, too... I'm kind of wondering why it wasn't just made magical in the first place, though? Surely this isn't the first time someone's thinking of it? There must have been some sort of reason behind leaving it off, right?

Well, it was in SotBE and the Shamans might have been like that since it made it necessary to shield them

OK, but if that's the case, then why give them drain, though? Drain is only useful if they get hurt, which can only happen if you're not shielding them... (also, even if you do give them magical, you still have to shield them anyways, since they're still relatively frail...)

description= _"staff"
type=impact
range=melee
# Reduce the staff's physical damage to reflect age
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Instead of reducing the unit's stats this way, how about giving the "Aged" trait "musthave" status for this particular unit? Seeing as it's "Old" and all... (if that makes it too weak, its base stats can be raised to compensate; the idea behind doing agedness as a trait is just for flavorfulness)

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However, if we're going with aged but otherwise a vanilla Orcish Sorcerer, I'd rather apply it directly to the specific unit in the scenario.

I'm not quite sure yet if we want to remove these stubs though.

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Well, yes, I also applied the trait directly to the unit in my case, too, but I also buffed the base stats as well to make up for it

@CelticMinstrel
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Since there happened to be a discusion weather or not the unit should get stronger or be just a "lore unit" that is on purpose weak it would be good to decide that here, if it is just lore unit then it being on purpose weak is fine, if it is supposed to be just standard unit then I will mostlikely overwritre knyght ideas anyway (or at least some of them) within next 1 to 3 days.

I'm not quite sure what makes a unit "standard". I don't expect it to be added to any mainline faction though. But on the other hand, I think it should be generally a viable unit.

@Mirion147
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Orcish Shaman are in a pretty sad state both in lore and gameplay, but i greatly dsupport adding them to core. I would suggest drastically switching up their stats/lore. Obviously this will require approval from several sources, but I suggest turning the orc Shaman towards blood magic. This blood magic allows them to enter the spirit realm and pull spirits into an object and use them for various means. As far as damage it would look like either arcane or impact damage but using it would damage the Shaman himself. This would add to the understanding of Shaman being frail, as well as keep them from wanting to constantly be in battle, only doing so in times of great need.

@Hejnewar
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After looking at the units they are so terrible that the stats should probably be written form 0 anyway. Even lvl 1 is bad (drain has no power here, this unit wont stay alive for long enough to use drain). Also what is proposed is still way way way too little to make them decent.

@CelticMinstrel
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Also what is proposed is still way way way too little to make them decent.

So should I apply all of Knyghtmare's suggestions and we review again, or…?

@Pentarctagon
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So summarize:

  • SotBE's Novice Orcish Shaman moved to core and renamed to Orcish Adept.
  • SotBE and SotA's Orcish Shaman moved to core.
  • SotBE's Old Orcish Shaman moved to core and renamed to Orcish Sorcerer.

Correct?

If the intention is simply to make these units more easily available to UMC by moving them to core, then I don't think there should be any stat changes (affects campaign balance) or unit type ID changes (unnecessarily affects backwards compatibility). The SotBE and SotA Orcish Shaman units are also identical stat-wise, so there's no need to have a separate "SotA Orcish Shaman" and "SotA Orcish Shaman".

@CelticMinstrel
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Your summary is correct.

Given that I'm reworking three unlinked units into an advancement line, I think stat changes are absolutely required. Otherwise it would violate RIPLIB as the "Old Shaman" has the weakest attack in SotBE if I recall correctly.

@Pentarctagon
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In that case, either Yumi needs to be a reviewer (and likely there will be campaign changes required) or the new unit line needs to be entirely distinct from the campaign units.

@CelticMinstrel
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I would personally prefer to avoid having to have completely separate units for SotBE, so I'll wait for her opinion on the matter.

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I would like these units to be made female and redesigned. Just a stat change isn't enough because if we add these to core and then change them again later, that will be a nightmare for UMC. They should be in a good state lore-wise prior to being put in core so we don't run into the issue of changing the unit and causing UMC problems later.

@CelticMinstrel
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Just adding gender=female is a trivial thing I can do right now. The sprite probably would have to be adjusted though, that's not within my capabilities.

@nemaara
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nemaara commented Jan 26, 2023

Sprite and sounds aren't as much of an issue as unit design. UMC will enjoy having new sprites and anims and such, but if we redesign it later that might interfere with balancing things in how they use it or choices they make during scenario design. So I would say let's redesign it now if the goal is to move it to core.

@CelticMinstrel
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Okay, so do you have any requests beyond gender=female?

data/core/units/orcs/Sorcerer.cfg Outdated Show resolved Hide resolved
@knyghtmare
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image
Why have you placed image files inside the units CFG files directory?

@CelticMinstrel
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CelticMinstrel commented Jan 30, 2023

I just mistyped a git mv command… but why are you commenting on something that I already fixed?

@knyghtmare
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https://raw.githubusercontent.com/doofus-01/wesnoth-Bad_Moon_Rising/master/images/units/hrala.png

Perhaps modify and adjust this one from BMR to fit Orcish Shaman (female one) ?

@CelticMinstrel
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To be quite honest, I don't think we need to do much about the sprites. I think the existing sprites could even be fine with no changes, or only very minor changes. There's no need to change the hair, unless you can make out facial hair on the sprite, and the unfeminine chest could probably be explained by baggy clothing at such a small scale.

There's also the fact that I think the sprites are cool and would prefer to stick to the same concept even if we're changing the gender. Tweaking them a little, sure, we can do that, but replacing them with something completely different? That would kind of defeat the point.

The portraits, on the other hand, look quite distinctly masculine and would probably need to be discarded altogether and redone (unless of course this was going to be a two-gender unit line, but I don't think that's what Nemaara has in mind). Still, they could be redrawn on the same base concept.

@stevecotton
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Temporary schema validation adjustment

Swapping around stdout and stderr doesn't help, the problem is that --validate doesn't imply --no-log-to-file #7310.

error preprocessor: Macro/file 'campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/units' is missing
at campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/_main.cfg:81
    included from data/_main.cfg:38
Game error: Macro/file 'campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/units' is missing
at campaigns/Son_Of_The_Black_Eye/_main.cfg:81
    included from data/_main.cfg:38

@CelticMinstrel
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Ah, perfect. Just the answer I was looking for.

@Dalas121
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Dalas121 commented Apr 1, 2024

If this is going ahead, I'd prefer to have us use the same design/stats as in "The Deceiver's Gambit" (the DM replacement). Should I make a separate PR for that, or should we modify this one?

Orcish Adept:
[unit_type]
    id=Orcish Adept
    name=_"Orcish Adept"
    race=orc
    gender=female
    image="units/orcs/adept.png"
    profile="portraits/shaman.webp~FL()"
    hitpoints=31
    movement_type=orcishfoot
    [resistance]
        arcane=80
        fire=70
        cold=70
    [/resistance]
    movement=5
    experience=35
    level=1
    alignment=chaotic
    advances_to=Orcish Shaman
    cost=21
    usage=archer
    # description based off https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Orcs
    description= _ "Female orcs with spiritual leanings often find themselves inducted into the arts of orcish sorcery. Initially called adepts, these newly-trained orcs gain a curious influence over the shamanistic forces that separate life from non-life. Directed inwards, this art gives them great resilience against most forms of magic. Directed outwards, it grants them the fearsome power to siphon life from their enemies.

Although physically frail — by orcish standards, at least — this shamanistic art makes even a freshly trained adept a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield."
    die_sound={SOUND_LIST:ORC_DIE}
    {DEFENSE_ANIM "units/orcs/adept-defend-2.png" "units/orcs/adept-defend-1.png" {SOUND_LIST:ORC_HIT} }
    [attack]
        name=staff
        description= _ "staff"
        type=impact
        range=melee
        damage=6
        number=1
        icon=attacks/druidstaff.png
    [/attack]
    [attack]
        name=siphon
        description= _ "siphon"
        type=arcane
        range=ranged
        damage=4
        number=4
        [specials]
            {WEAPON_SPECIAL_DRAIN}
            {WEAPON_SPECIAL_MAGICAL}
        [/specials]
        icon=icons/enervate.png
    [/attack]
    [attack_anim]
        [filter_attack]
            name=siphon
        [/filter_attack]

        missile_start_time=-200
        start_time=-350
        halo1_start_time=-350
        halo2_start_time=-200
        sound_start_time=0

        [missile_frame]
            halo="halo/elven/druid-healing[8~1].png~CS(50,-30,-50):50"
            offset=1.0~0.0
        [/missile_frame]

        [frame]
            image="units/orcs/adept.png:550"
        [/frame]
        [frame]
            image="units/orcs/adept-magic.png:300"
        [/frame]

        [halo1_frame]
            halo="halo/elven/nature-halo[8~1].png~CS(50,-30,-50)~O([80%*2,60%,40%,30%,20%*3]):75"
            offset=1.0
            auto_vflip=no
            auto_hflip=no
        [/halo1_frame]

        [halo2_frame]
            halo="halo/elven/nature-halo[1~8].png~CS(50,-30,-50)~O([20%*3,30%,40%,60%,80%*2]):75"
            offset=0.0
            auto_vflip=no
            auto_hflip=no
        [/halo2_frame]

        [sound_frame]
            sound=siphon.ogg
        [/sound_frame]
    [/attack_anim]
    [attack_anim]
        [filter_attack]
            name=staff
        [/filter_attack]

        start_time=-200

        [frame]
            image="units/orcs/adept.png:350"
        [/frame]

        {SOUND:HIT_AND_MISS staff.ogg staff-miss.ogg -125}
    [/attack_anim]
[/unit_type]
Orcish Shaman:
[unit_type]
    id=Orcish Shaman
    name=_"Orcish Shaman"
    race=orc
    gender=female
    image="units/orcs/shaman.png"
    profile="portraits/shaman.webp~FL()"
    hitpoints=43
    movement_type=orcishfoot
    [resistance]
        arcane=70
        fire=60
        cold=60
    [/resistance]
    movement=5
    experience=75
    level=2
    alignment=chaotic
    advances_to=Orcish Sorceress
    cost=37
    usage=archer
    # https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Orcs
    description= _ "Like most sapient races, orcs often ponder the workings of the world in which they live. Some endeavor to take this beyond idle musing, but the violent, nomadic lifestyle of the largest orcish clans does not lend itself to academic study, and the rare scholarly orc is invariably killed or enslaved by his more warlike brethren.

The orcish shamans are the exceptions to this rule. Respected among clans and seen as a trustworthy and neutral party, shamans serve as the guardians of orcish wisdom, and advisors in times of crisis - not something orcs tend to otherwise tolerate.

By the time an adept is recognized as a fully-fledged shaman, she has committed to memory much of the orcs’ collective oral tradition. This much-practiced wisdom has many applications, not least of which is their improved ability to draw life from their foes during battle."
    die_sound={SOUND_LIST:ORC_DIE}
    {DEFENSE_ANIM "units/orcs/shaman-defend-2.png" "units/orcs/shaman-defend-1.png" {SOUND_LIST:ORC_HIT} }
    [attack]
        name=staff
        description= _ "staff"
        type=impact
        range=melee
        damage=10
        number=1
        icon=attacks/druidstaff.png
    [/attack]
    [attack]
        name=siphon
        description= _ "siphon"
        type=arcane
        range=ranged
        damage=6
        number=4
        [specials]
            {WEAPON_SPECIAL_DRAIN}
            {WEAPON_SPECIAL_MAGICAL}
        [/specials]
        icon=icons/enervate.png
    [/attack]
    [attack_anim]
        [filter_attack]
            name=siphon
        [/filter_attack]

        missile_start_time=-200
        start_time=-350
        halo1_start_time=-350
        halo2_start_time=-200
        sound_start_time=0

        [missile_frame]
            halo="halo/elven/druid-healing[8~1].png~CS(50,-30,-50):50"
            offset=1.0~0.0
        [/missile_frame]

        [frame]
            image="units/orcs/shaman.png:200"
        [/frame]
        [frame]
            image="units/orcs/shaman-magic.png:300"
        [/frame]

        [halo1_frame]
            halo="halo/elven/nature-halo[8~1].png~CS(50,-30,-50)~O([80%*2,60%,40%,30%,20%*3]):75"
            offset=1.0
            auto_vflip=no
            auto_hflip=no
        [/halo1_frame]

        [halo2_frame]
            halo="halo/elven/nature-halo[1~8].png~CS(50,-30,-50)~O([20%*3,30%,40%,60%,80%*2]):75"
            offset=0.0
            auto_vflip=no
            auto_hflip=no
        [/halo2_frame]

        [sound_frame]
            sound=siphon.ogg
        [/sound_frame]
    [/attack_anim]
    [attack_anim]
        [filter_attack]
            name=staff
        [/filter_attack]

        start_time=-200

        [frame]
            image="units/orcs/shaman.png:350"
        [/frame]

        {SOUND:HIT_AND_MISS staff.ogg staff-miss.ogg -125}
    [/attack_anim]
[/unit_type]

Orcish Sorceress:
[unit_type]
    id=Orcish Sorceress
    name=_"Orcish Sorceress"
    race=orc
    gender=female
    image="units/orcs/sorceress.png"
    profile="portraits/shaman.webp~FL()"
    hitpoints=55
    movement_type=orcishfoot
    [resistance]
        arcane=60
        fire=50
        cold=50
    [/resistance]
    movement=5
    experience=150
    level=3
    alignment=chaotic
    advances_to=null {AMLA_DEFAULT}
    cost=54
    usage=archer
    # https://wiki.wesnoth.org/Orcs
    description= _ "Orcs are capable of living as long as any human, but very few individuals ever fully realize that potential, as the average orc only sees two or three decades before meeting their end either in war or by the hand of one of their kin. Only the shamans, isolated from the daily strife of the major orcish clans, commonly live to reach old age.

The greatest of these elders make up the Orcish Council, which arbitrates (with varying effectiveness) the many conflicts that arise between clans of their argumentative brethren. Having practiced their mystical art to perfection, these aged orcs earn the title “sorceress”, and are held in the highest respect across the various clans."
    die_sound={SOUND_LIST:ORC_DIE}
    {DEFENSE_ANIM "units/orcs/sorceress-defend-2.png" "units/orcs/sorceress-defend-1.png" {SOUND_LIST:ORC_HIT} }
    [attack]
        name=staff
        description= _ "staff"
        type=impact
        range=melee
        damage=12
        number=1
        icon=attacks/druidstaff.png
    [/attack]
    [attack]
        name=sap
        description= _ "sap"
        type=arcane
        range=melee
        damage=6
        number=2
        icon=icons/sap.png
        [specials]
            {WEAPON_SPECIAL_DRAIN}
        [/specials]
    [/attack]
    [attack]
        name=siphon
        description= _ "siphon"
        type=arcane
        range=ranged
        damage=8
        number=4
        [specials]
            {WEAPON_SPECIAL_DRAIN}
            {WEAPON_SPECIAL_MAGICAL}
        [/specials]
        icon=icons/enervate.png
    [/attack]
    [attack_anim]
        [filter_attack]
            name=siphon
        [/filter_attack]

        missile_start_time=-200
        start_time=-350
        halo1_start_time=-350
        halo2_start_time=-200
        sound_start_time=0

        [missile_frame]
            halo="halo/elven/druid-healing[8~1].png~CS(50,-30,-50):50"
            offset=1.0~0.0
        [/missile_frame]

        [frame]
            image="units/orcs/sorceress.png:150"
        [/frame]
        [frame]
            image="units/orcs/sorceress-magic-1.png:450"
        [/frame]
        [frame]
            image="units/orcs/sorceress-magic-2.png:150"
        [/frame]

        [halo1_frame]
            halo="halo/elven/nature-halo[8~1].png~CS(50,-30,-50)~O([80%*2,60%,40%,30%,20%*3]):75"
            offset=1.0
            auto_vflip=no
            auto_hflip=no
        [/halo1_frame]

        [halo2_frame]
            halo="halo/elven/nature-halo[1~8].png~CS(50,-30,-50)~O([20%*3,30%,40%,60%,80%*2]):75"
            offset=0.0
            auto_vflip=no
            auto_hflip=no
        [/halo2_frame]

        [sound_frame]
            sound=siphon.ogg
        [/sound_frame]
    [/attack_anim]
    [attack_anim]
        [filter_attack]
            name=staff
        [/filter_attack]

        start_time=-200

        [frame]
            image="units/orcs/sorceress.png:350"
        [/frame]

        {SOUND:HIT_AND_MISS staff.ogg staff-miss.ogg -125}
    [/attack_anim]
    [attack_anim]
        [filter_attack]
            name=sap
        [/filter_attack]
        start_time=-200
        [frame]
            image="units/orcs/sorceress.png:350"
        [/frame]
        {SOUND:HIT_AND_MISS siphon.ogg {SOUND_LIST:MISS} -125}
    [/attack_anim]
[/unit_type]

@CelticMinstrel
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CelticMinstrel commented Apr 2, 2024

How do those stats differ from these?

Other than that, I believe we're missing sprites and portraits for the female version of the shamans.

@Dalas121
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Dalas121 commented Apr 2, 2024

Compared to the current stats in this PR, TDG's shamen have more hp, with resistance to cold/fire/arcane that scales as they level (lore explanation in description). The level 3 has a secondary draining melee attack, since the sprite has a clearly magical hand.

TDG's shamen are also female-only, have normal orcishfoot movetypes (not the unusual village/fungus defense from this PR), and their ranged attacks have more strikes. And minor differences in damage, cost, XP, etc. And finally, I also wrote new descriptions for each shaman advancement.

May need balancing, but I think this is an interesting direction to go in that clearly differentiates the shaman line from typical mages.

Other than that, I believe we're missing sprites and portraits for the female version of the shamans.

This PR already contains female sprites, unless there's some reason they're not useable. And I've used the portrait by Kordov that sevu posted in this PR.

@CelticMinstrel
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This PR already contains female sprites, unless there's some reason they're not useable. And I've used the portrait by Kordov that sevu posted in this PR.

I guess I forgot about this, but it would be nice to have at least two portraits before merging – a level 1 portrait and a level 2/3 portrait. (A separate level 3 portrait would be nice too, but a lot of other lines don't have one anyway so whatever.)

Someone will also need to rebase it and update the copyright information.

I don't see anything I'd object to in your account of the differences. I would mildly prefer it to be a mixed-gender unit, for no other reason than that it feels like a shame to throw away the perfectly good sprites and portraits of the male versions. I wouldn't mind if it were somehow set so that the chance of getting a female one is higher than the chance of getting a male one, if that's supported (I haven't checked but maybe gender=female,female,female,male would have that effect). Or if male ones are reserved for campaign-only units (ie set gender=female in the main unit but still define a [male] tag).

Side note: the plural of "shaman" is not "shamen".

@cooljeanius
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Side note: the plural of "shaman" is not "shamen".

Something to put in the plural_name= field proposed in issue #7390! 😜

@Wedge009 Wedge009 removed Campaign (any) Deprecated tag, replaced with separate tags for each mainline campaign Graphics Issues that involve the graphics engine or assets. labels May 2, 2024
@Pentarctagon
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@doofus-01 can you expand on what you meant about the graphics?

@doofus-01
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@Pentarctagon - what I meant was that this was a significant design decision being made by sevu's scavenging.

@github-actions github-actions bot added Graphics Issues that involve the graphics engine or assets. Campaign SotA The mainline Secrets of the Ancients campaign Campaign SotBE The mainline Son of the Black Eye campaign labels Sep 24, 2024
@stevecotton
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When force-pushing, please merge the commits such as "Whoops wrong directory".

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