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<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<hansard xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd" version="2.1" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
<session.header>
<date>1904-10-14</date>
<parliament.no>2</parliament.no>
<session.no>1</session.no>
<period.no>0</period.no>
<chamber>REPS</chamber>
<page.no>5589</page.no>
<proof>0</proof>
</session.header>
<chamber.xscript>
<para>Ho use ofRepresentatives. </para>
<business.start>
<day.start>1904-10-14</day.start>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Speaker</inline>took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers. </para>
</business.start>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>PERSONAL EXPLANATION</title>
<page.no>5589</page.no>
<type>personal explanation</type>
</debateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5589</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L1D</name.id>
<electorate>Robertson</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">WILLIS, Henry</name>
<name role="display">Mr HENRY WILLIS</name>
</talker>
<para>- I wish to make a personal explanation. In today&#39;s <inline font-style="italic">Argus</inline> the leader of the Opposition is reported to have said last night - </para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Willis,</inline>in his speech, said that the Labour Party was -so well organized that there should be no dissolution at the present time. He was aware that the feeling of the country was against the Ministry, and therefore did not desire a dissolution. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">I have consulted <inline font-style="italic">Hansard,</inline> which, as honorable members know, is a verbatim report, and I find that the words which I used were these - </para>
<quote>
<para>Honorable members opposite have derived some satisfaction from a reckless statement of the honorable member for Wilmot, that were a dissolution to take place at the present time, the polls would be swept by the Labour Party. The honorable member might be able to let&#39; himself down softly in that way, but he could not deceive me, nor could he deceive <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Tom</inline> Mann, who has said that honorable members opposite would go further than they now profess to be prepared to go, and that if they were candid and honest, and said what they really believed in,&#39; . they would go the full lengthof. Socialism, according to the <inline font-style="italic">Fabian Essays,</inline> and of the socialistic movement of England, and the Continent.; but he adds that they are not supported by the people. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">There is a great difference between the two statements. I think that my views as reported in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> are very clearly and definitely set out. </para>
</speech>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5589</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>SUGAR BOUNTY ACT</title>
<page.no>5589</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5589</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4N</name.id>
<electorate>WIDE BAY, QUEENSLAND</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FISHER, Andrew</name>
<name role="display">Mr FISHER</name>
</talker>
<para>- I wish to know from the Prime Minister if he has received a communication from the Premier of Queensland regarding&#39; the continuance of the Sugar Bounty Act, and dealing with the whole subject. If he has, will he be good enough to lay it upon the table ? </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5589</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4P</name.id>
<electorate>EAST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>Free Trade</party>
<role>Minister for External Affairs</role>
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">REID, George</name>
<name role="display">Mr REID</name>
</talker>
<para>- No such communication has yet reached me, but if such a letter is received, there will be no objection to laying it on the table. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>MANUFACTURES ENCOURAGEMENT BILL</title>
<page.no>5589</page.no>
<type>bill</type>
</debateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5589</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KXK</name.id>
<electorate>MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">WEBSTER, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr WEBSTER</name>
</talker>
<para>- Is it a fact that, prior to the defeat of the Watson Government, a promise was made to the honorable member for Eden-Monaro, conditionally or un. conditionally, that he would be given charge of the Manufactures Encouragement Bill if the then Government was put out of office, and the present Government came into power? </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4P</name.id>
<electorate />
<party>Free Trade</party>
<role />
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">REID, George</name>
<name role="display">Mr REID</name>
</talker>
<para>- It is not a fact. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>REFUND OF DUTY</title>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<type>miscellaneous</type>
</debateinfo>
<para>SirWILLIAM LYNE. - Can the Minister of Trade and Customs give the House any information regarding a claim made by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Sandford</inline> for a refund of duty on steel rails paid some time ago? The matter was afterwards taken into court. I wish to know if the Government have withdrawn their defence, and if they are now prepared to pay. the claim. If so, willthe Minister lay the papers upon the table? I do not ask the question in any hostile spirit ; but if the Government have done what I think they have done, I wish the papers to be made public, so that my action, and that of some of my colleagues, in reference to the matter may be disclosed. </para>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KRO</name.id>
<electorate>GIPPSLAND, VICTORIA</electorate>
<party>Protectionist</party>
<role>Minister for Trade and Customs</role>
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCLEAN, Allan</name>
<name role="display">Mr McLEAN</name>
</talker>
<para>- The matter came under my notice a little time ago, as one which had been partly dealt with by my predecessors. On making inquiries, I found that the equities of the case were with <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Sandford,</inline> and I therefore sent instructions to Sydney not&#39; to enter a defence. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KIN</name.id>
<electorate>HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">LYNE, William</name>
<name role="display">Sir WILLIAM LYNE</name>
</talker>
<para>- Will the Minister lay on the table the papers connected with the matter? </para>
</talk.start>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KRO</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCLEAN, Allan</name>
<name role="display">Mr McLEAN</name>
</talker>
<para>- There is no objection- to doing so. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>PREFERENCE. TO LOCAL TENDERERS</title>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KWL</name.id>
<electorate>for Mr. Crouch</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">TUDOR, Frank</name>
<name role="display">Mr TUDOR</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Prime Minister, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline> (1)Whether he proposes to carry out the policy that in all Government contracts preference shall be given to local manufactures and products? </para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal">
<item label="(2)">
<para>Whether he will cause to be inserted in all Government contracts a condition that goods which can be reasonably manufactured in Australia should have preference over similar articles manufactured outside? </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4P</name.id>
<electorate />
<party>Free Trade</party>
<role />
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">REID, George</name>
<name role="display">Mr REID</name>
</talker>
<para>- The following are the replies to the honorable ^member&#39;s questions : - </para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>No general rule has been adopted. Each case will be judged on its merits, with the desire to make use of Australian articles where conditions justify. </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>The present system will be adhered to. </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KTT</name.id>
<electorate>PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">SMITH, Arthur</name>
<name role="display">Mr BRUCE SMITH</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the PostmasterGeneral, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal">
<item label="(1)">
<para>Whether he has yet submitted to the Cabinet the question of continuing the practice of distinguishing between Australian and European tenderers by giving the former an advantage of 15 per cent, over the latter in their dealings with his Department? </para>
</item>
<item label="(2)">
<para>If he has so submitted the question, have his colleagues approved of the continuance of the practice? </para>
</item>
<item label="(3)">
<para>Can he point to any constitutional or legis lative authority for such differential treatment of Commonwealth citizens, on the ground of nationality ? </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L2I</name.id>
<electorate>MACQUARIE, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">SMITH, Sydney</name>
<name role="display">Mr SYDNEY SMITH</name>
</talker>
<para>- I would point out to the honorable and learned memberthat this question has already been answered by the reply given by the Prime Minister to the question just asked by the honorable member for Yarra. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4P</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">REID, George</name>
<name role="display">Mr Reid</name>
</talker>
<para>- Is the honorable membergoing to answer questions, or are Ministers to be allowed <inline font-style="italic">to</inline> do so? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KLB</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MAHON, Hugh</name>
<name role="display">Mr Mahon</name>
</talker>
<para>- I shall see that Ministers answer the questions which- are asked. I shall put another set on the notice-paper. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4P</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">REID, George</name>
<name role="display">Mr Reid</name>
</talker>
<para>- That is a very terrible. threat. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KLB</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MAHON, Hugh</name>
<name role="display">Mr Mahon</name>
</talker>
<para>- I shall see that. the Prime Minister does not bull-doze the House, in that way. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>10000</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">SPEAKER, Mr</name>
<name role="display">Mr SPEAKER</name>
</talker>
<para>- Order. It will be impossible for meto carry out my duties as. Speaker unless I am supported by honorable members. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>FIRST COMMONWEALTH CONTINGENT</title>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KNI</name.id>
<electorate>MERNDA, VICTORIA</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">HARPER, Robert</name>
<name role="display">Mr HARPER</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Minister of Defence, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal">
<item label="(1)">
<para>Why have the members of. the First Commonwealth Contingent, which returned from South Africa about two years ago, not - yet received their medals, although the members of the Second Commonwealth Contingent have, it is said, received theirs? </para>
</item>
<item label="(2)">
<para>Are the members of the First Commonwealth Contingent to receive extra medals from the Commonwealth Government? If so, when will these be presented? </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5590</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate>CORINELLA, VICTORIA</electorate>
<party>Protectionist</party>
<role>Minister for Defence</role>
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- The answers to the honorable member&#39;s questions are as- follow : - </para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>Neither the members, of the First nor the Second Commonwealth Contingent have yet received their medals ; but advice was recently received from- the Home Government that they would shortly be ready for issue, and they may now, therefore, soon be expected. The delay, that has taken place in the matter has been occasioned, it is understood, by the large number of medals to be issued, and the necessaTy checking of the Rolls. </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>It is not intended by the Government to award any extra medals to members of the First Commonwealth Contingent. </para>
</item>
</list>
<para>&#34;EXISTING AND ACCRUING RIGHTS.&#34; </para>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5591</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KCO</name.id>
<electorate>ANGAS, SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">GLYNN, Patrick</name>
<name role="display">Mr GLYNN</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Minister of Home Affairs, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>Referring to his answer to the question of the honorable member for Barker, on 8th September, on the matter of the annual increases to civil servants under State Acts, and generally to the matter of existing and accruing rights under section 84 of the Commonwealth Constitution - </para>
<list type="decimal">
<item label="(1)">
<para>Are the law officers, including the AttorneyGeneral, of opinion that none of the following payments or rights under State Acts in force when the Department of the State became subject to the Executive control &#39;of the Commonwealth, are existing or accruing rights within the meaning of the Constitution : - </para>
<list type="loweralpha">
<item label="(a)">
<para>Annual salaries. </para>
</item>
<item label="(b)">
<para>Prescribed annual increases of such salaries. </para>
</item>
<item label="(c)">
<para>Commission on work done by an officer as part of the duties, or by reason, of his office. </para>
</item>
</list>
</item>
<item label="(2)">
<para>Are the law officers of opinion that rights under such State Acts may be taken away by a Federal Act? If Yes- </para>
</item>
<item label="(3)">
<para>What, in the opinion of the law officers, are existing or accruing rights within the meaning of Section 84 of the Constitution? </para>
</item>
</list>
</quote>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5591</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KW6</name.id>
<electorate>NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">THOMSON, Dugald</name>
<name role="display">Mr DUGALD THOMSON</name>
</talker>
<para>- The answer to the honorable and learned member&#39;s questions is as follows : - </para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>It is considered generally undesirable to furnish legal opinions given by law officers of the Crown to the ex-Government, especially when the cases submitted may come before the High Court for decision. As already partially intimated in reply to a previous question, it may be stated that it was held by the Crown Law Officers that, on confirmation by the GovernorGeneral, the classification of the service made by the Public Service Commissioner supersedes the State Acts as regard salaries, increments, and allowances. </para>
<para>The present Attorney-General has given no opinion on the matters referred to. </para>
</quote>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5591</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>PUBLIC SERVICE CLASSIFICATION</title>
<page.no>5591</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5591</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KIC</name.id>
<electorate>NEW ENGLAND, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">LONSDALE, Edmund</name>
<name role="display">Mr LONSDALE</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Minister of Home Affairs, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal">
<item label="(1)">
<para>Since the scheme for the classification of the Public Service has been presented to this House, has the Commissioner informed any public officers that they are not entitled to the grade assigned to them therein, but to a lower one? </para>
</item>
<item label="(2)">
<para>If so, on what grounds, and in how many instances in respect of each State? </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5591</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KW6</name.id>
<electorate>NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">THOMSON, Dugald</name>
<name role="display">Mr DUGALD THOMSON</name>
</talker>
<para>- The answer to . the honorable member&#39;s questions is as follows : - 1 and 2. A clerical error occurs in the printed classification, whereby six officers in the New South Wales Customs are given wrong designa tion; when this was discovered, the Commissioner notified the officers of same. They are described as third instead of fourth class inspectors, but the mistake is self-evident, as the classification and pay of the officers show their positions as in the fourth class. Five of the officers referred to have been granted an increase in the classification. The Commissioner is not aware of any other similar cases. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5591</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>PROVISIONAL PATENT REGULATIONS</title>
<page.no>5591</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5591</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KDR</name.id>
<electorate>for Mr. Deakin</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">EWING, Thomas</name>
<name role="display">Mr EWING</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>When the provisional Patent regulations tentatively adopted on 31st May are proposed to bc finally approved? </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>Whether any and what alterations are intended to be made in the provisional regulations? </para>
</item>
<item label="3.">
<para>Whether those interested will be afforded an opportunity of making suggestions relating to the regulations, as proposed to be amended? </para>
</item>
<item label="4.">
<para>When will the first complete specifications under the Federal Patents Act be accepted? </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5591</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KRO</name.id>
<electorate />
<party>Protectionist</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCLEAN, Allan</name>
<name role="display">Mr McLEAN</name>
</talker>
<para>- The answers to the honorable and learned member&#39;s questions are as follow : - </para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>Probably within the next fortnight. </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>Yes ; such alterations as the working of the provisional regulations may prove necessary or desirable will be made in accordance with the piactice in such cases. They will probably, however, be of a slight character. </para>
</item>
<item label="3.">
<para>In accordance with the Rules Publication Act, the regulations were gazetted on the 31st May last, and persons interested had then sixty days&#39; notice in which to make any suggestions. A few suggestions have been received, and these have been given due consideration. </para>
</item>
<item label="4.">
<para>Complete specifications will be accepted when the indexes of the State Patent Offices have been put in order. The difficulty of bringing the Act into effective operation in this connexion was clearly indicated by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Deakin</inline> when the Bill was under discussion in Parliament during its second reading, when the Honorable member remarked that it would probably take a considerable time before complete specifications could be accepted.(Vide <inline font-style="italic">Hansard,</inline> 29th September, 1903, page 5507 ; and 30th September, page 5591.) </para>
</item>
</list>
<para>The Patents indexes and records of all States except New South Wales are now being carefully inspected, but in regard to - the last-mentioned State a difficulty has arisen, which it is hoped may be shortly adjusted. The Commissioner is using every effort to push on with this work. </para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5591</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>TEMPORARY OFFICIALS : CUSTOMS DEPARTMENT</title>
<page.no>5591</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5591</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KIC</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">LONSDALE, Edmund</name>
<name role="display">Mr LONSDALE</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>Whether it is the intention of the Public Service Commissioner to recommend that the exemption of certain officers in the temporary service of the Department of Trade and Customs at Sydney (enumerated in notification of 23rd June) shall be renewed at and from 1st October, 1904, in those cases where the officers have carried out their duties in a satisfactory and efficient manner? </para>
</quote>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KRO</name.id>
<electorate />
<party>Protectionist</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCLEAN, Allan</name>
<name role="display">Mr McLEAN</name>
</talker>
<para>- The answer to the honorable member&#39;s question is as follows : - </para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>Pending re-adjustment of the permanent staff consequent on classification, the exemption of certain officers in the temporary service of the Department of Trade and Customs, at Sydney, has been renewed from the1st October, 1904, for three months. Such exemption will not, it is anticipated, be extended further, and the persons concerned cannot be made permanent officials. </para>
</quote>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>FEDERAL CAPITAL SITE</title>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KTT</name.id>
<electorate>PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">SMITH, Arthur</name>
<name role="display">Mr BRUCE SMITH</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Minister of Home Affairs, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>Whether the Government is yet in a position to say how much of the 900 square miles to be appropriated for Federal Capital purposes consists of Crown lands such as the Commonwealth is entitled to ask the Government of New South Wales to grant free of change, and what proportion of such area is private property such as the Commonwealth will require to resume and pay for? </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>If not yet in a position to give an answer, how soon does he anticipate being able to do so? </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KW6</name.id>
<electorate>NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">THOMSON, Dugald</name>
<name role="display">Mr DUGALD THOMSON</name>
</talker>
<para>- The information desired by the honorable and learned member is not yet complete, and I would ask him to repeat the question on Tuesday next, when I think that a reply can be furnished. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KJ8</name.id>
<electorate>for Sir Langdon Bonython</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">HUTCHISON, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr HUTCHISON</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Minister of Home Affairs, <inline font-style="italic">uppn notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>Whether, in his negotiations with the New South Wales Government in regard to Federal territory, he will endeavour to provide that the teiritory shall include the watershed from which the water supply for the Capital must be obtained ? </para>
</quote>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KW6</name.id>
<electorate>NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">THOMSON, Dugald</name>
<name role="display">Mr DUGALD THOMSON</name>
</talker>
<para>- The answer to the honorable member&#39;s question is as follows : - </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<quote>
<para>Provision for the preservation of the catchment area has already been proposed in the- negotiations, and will continue to receive attention. </para>
</quote>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>HIGH COURT</title>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KDR</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">EWING, Thomas</name>
<name role="display">Mr EWING</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Prime Minister, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para class="block">If he will&#39; lay upon the table of the House a return showing the amount of work performed by the High Court during the first year of its existence, viz. : - </para>
<list type="loweralpha">
<item label="(a)">
<para>A list of the cases heard, with a very brief indication of the nature of each case ; </para>
</item>
<item label="(b)">
<para>A list of the cases awaiting hearing, with similar details; </para>
</item>
<item label="(c)">
<para>What has been about the average period taken in dealing with an appeal by the High Court ; </para>
</item>
<item label="(d)">
<para>What was approximately the period which an appeal to the Privy Council involved before the decision was registered in the local courts? </para>
</item>
</list>
</quote>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4P</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">REID, George</name>
<name role="display">Mr REID</name>
</talker>
<para>- I should like the honorable member to move for the production of the information he desires, in the shape of a return. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K8L</name.id>
<electorate>BARRIER, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">THOMAS, Josiah</name>
<name role="display">Mr THOMAS</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Prime Minister, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>Whether he will lay upon the table of the House a return showing - </para>
<list type="decimal">
<item label="(1)">
<para>The number of full days on which the High Court sat, and dealt with causes during the first year of its existence, distinguishing the days - </para>
<list type="loweralpha">
<item label="(a)">
<para>When one Judge sat alone? </para>
</item>
<item label="(b)">
<para>When the three Judges sat to gether ? </para>
</item>
</list>
</item>
<item label="(2)">
<para>The number of appeals sent to the Privy Council, and the number of appeals sent to the High Court, during the same period ; and how many, of the latter appeals could have been taken to the Privy Council? </para>
</item>
<item label="(3)">
<para>The time spent by the Judges in travel ling? </para>
</item>
<item label="(4)">
<para>The number of causes finally disposed of by the Court in each State? </para>
</item>
<item label="(5)">
<para>The allowance and travelling expenses (apart from salaries) of the Judges during the year? </para>
</item>
<item label="(6)">
<para>The allowance and travelling expenses (apart from salaries) of the associates, marshals, tipstaffs, and other functionaries of the Court during the year? </para>
</item>
<item label="(7)">
<para>The amount of other expenditure in connexion with the Court during the year? </para>
</item>
</list>
</quote>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4P</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">REID, George</name>
<name role="display">Mr REID</name>
</talker>
<para>-I would ask the honorable member to follow the course I have just suggested to the honorable member for Richmond, and to move for a return. There will be no objection to such a motion, but I desire to suggest one or two alterations in form which would tend to further the object the honorable member has in view. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>NATIVES OF INDIA</title>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4N</name.id>
<electorate>for Mr. Higgins</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FISHER, Andrew</name>
<name role="display">Mr FISHER</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Minister of External Affairs, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal">
<item label="(1)">
<para>Is he aware of any pledge given by the British Government, by treaty, or proclamation, or otherwise, to the effect that natives of India are to be admitted to all parts of the British Empire?- </para>
</item>
<item label="(2)">
<para>If so, can he obtain and communicate to this House the date and full particulars of any such pledge? </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4P</name.id>
<electorate />
<party>Free Trade</party>
<role />
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">REID, George</name>
<name role="display">Mr REID</name>
</talker>
<para>- In reply to the honorable member, I have to say that I am not aware of any pledge given by the British Government. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>GENERAL OFFICER COMMANDING</title>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5592</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K4I</name.id>
<electorate>BOURKE, VICTORIA</electorate>
<party>PROT</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">COOK, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr HUME COOK</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Minister of Defence, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>Whether the Government intend to re-appoint Major-General Hutton as head of the Austraiian Military Forces? </para>
</quote>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5593</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party>Protectionist</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- The General Officer Commanding has not made any request or suggestion to the Government that his term of office should be extended. On the contrary, some time ago, he asked that the usual arrangements might be made to enable him to return to England in the usual way at the termination of his command, and such arrangements have been proceeded with. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY SURVEY BILL</title>
<page.no>5593</page.no>
<type>bill</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>Second Reading</title>
<page.no>5593</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5593</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KW6</name.id>
<electorate>NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906</party>
<role>Minister of Home Affairs</role>
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">THOMSON, Dugald</name>
<name role="display">Mr DUGALD THOMSON</name>
</talker>
<para>. - I think that I shall best serve the interests of the House if, after the full discussion, including the statement made by myself, which took place at a previous stage, I now content myself with moving - </para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para class="block">That the Bill be now read a second time. </para>
</quote>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5593</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KX9</name.id>
<electorate>Newcastle</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">WATKINS, David</name>
<name role="display">Mr WATKINS</name>
</talker>
<para>- I should like to know whether any provision has been made upon the lines of the suggestion put forward by me during the previous debate, rhat experts should accompany the survey party, with a view to reporting upon the mineral resources of the country along the route of the proposed railway. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5593</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KW6</name.id>
<electorate>NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">THOMSON, Dugald</name>
<name role="display">Mr DUGALD THOMSON</name>
</talker>
<para>- That matter will receive the fullest consideration. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. LONSDALE</inline>(New England).During the previous discussion upon this matter I suggested that the Bill should contain some provision for the reservation of the land along the route of the proposed railway against- alienation by the States Governments. I stated that if that was not provided for I should certainly oppose the Bill. Whilst the survey is being made, no opportunity should be afforded to any. one to monopolize the land along the proposed route, and this is the proper time to make provision against it. What would be the use of making the railway if the land were gone? </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5593</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JWG</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FOWLER, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Fowler</name>
</talker>
<para>- Is the land going to dissolve into thin air? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5593</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KIC</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">LONSDALE, Edmund</name>
<name role="display">Mr LONSDALE</name>
</talker>
<para>- The honorable mem ber is very smart. He knows very well that I refer to the land passing into the hands of private individuals. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5593</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JWG</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FOWLER, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Fowler</name>
</talker>
<para>- Why does not the honorable member advocate the single tax? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5593</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KIC</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">LONSDALE, Edmund</name>
<name role="display">Mr LONSDALE</name>
</talker>
<para>- I am advocating it in this connexion, and if the honorable member has any desire to help the masses of whom he is so fond of speaking, he will prevent individualism- </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5593</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>10000</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">SPEAKER, Mr</name>
<name role="display">Mr SPEAKER</name>
</talker>
<para>- I must confine the debate to the question before the Chair, which,, so far as I can see, has nothing to do with Socialism or individualism. The question is &#34; That the Bill be now read a second time.&#34; </para>
</talk.start>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5593</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KIC</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">LONSDALE, Edmund</name>
<name role="display">Mr LONSDALE</name>
</talker>
<para>- My point is that the Bill provides for the survey of a proposed line of railway through the territory of two States, and I desire that the land should be protected by proclamation against being monopolized by individuals. I think that I am justified in speaking upon that joint, because, unless some provision is made for reserving the land, I shall oppose the survey. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5593</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JWG</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FOWLER, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Fowler</name>
</talker>
<para>- Would the honorable member reserve the minerals in the land from exploitation? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5593</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KIC</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">LONSDALE, Edmund</name>
<name role="display">Mr LONSDALE</name>
</talker>
<para>- I would reserve both the land and any minerals which it may contain for the benefit of the Commonwealth. The money received from the sale of the land could afterwards be applied to liquidating the cost of constructing the railway. I merely desire what is fair. I wish the Commonwealth to be protected in its expenditure, and I desire to prevent any expenditure being incurred in the interests of private capitalists. I am aware that the Commonwealth has no power to reserve this land, but I ask that the Bill shall provide that the States shall reserve it. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5593</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFK</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">GROOM, Littleton</name>
<name role="display">Mr Groom</name>
</talker>
<para>- We cannot insert such a provision in a Railway Survey Bill. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5593</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KIC</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">LONSDALE, Edmund</name>
<name role="display">Mr LONSDALE</name>
</talker>
<para>- We can refuse to pass the Bill unless the States consent to reserve the land. It is useless to attempt to wriggle out of that position. I take it that the members of the Labour Party desire to prevent the capitalist from obtaining an advantage over other persons, and that, consequently, they will support my suggestion. I merely say that a man shall have what he himself earns. I am prepared to do my best to block this Bill unless some provision of the character I have indicated be inserted in it. It appears to me that the advocates of the measure are prepared to sacrifice every principle simply to suit the needs of their own States. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5593</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate>Swan</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir JOHN FORREST</name>
</talker>
<para>- I take no exception to the honorable member&#39;s desire that the States through which the proposed railway will pass should reserve a reasonable area upon each side of it, but I fail to see how they can do that until the route has been determined. I am sure that if the Ministry make representations upon the subject to the Western. Australian Government no difficulty will be experienced in inducing them to give effect to their views. At the same time, nobody desires that any . mineral wealth which may be discovered shall not be worked. Personally, I am of opinion that no minerals will be found in Western Australia except within about 250 miles of Kalgoorlie. Indeed, in a private letter which I received the other day it was stated that a mining lease comprising ninety-six acres had been &#39;applied for, about 250 miles to the east of Kurnalpie, which- would be somewhere near the probable route of the railway. Of course it would be altogether adverse to the interests of the Commonwealth to place any restrictions whatever upon the working of mineral leases: But I am convinced that no difficulty will be experienced in inducing the Government of Western Australia to reserve from alienation- any reasonable area upon each side of the projected line. I am sure that the representatives of that State share my opinion. Probably it would be advisable to set apart, say, twenty or thirty miles upon each side of the railway, but of course there would be nothing to prevent that area from being leased for pastoral purposes, as the land is quite, suitable for pastoral purposes when water is procured. At the present time, however, we do not know the exact route which the line will follow. I can assure honorable members that it is not merely the value of country which the railway will traverse which induces me and those associated with me to advocateits construction. I. am impelled to do so from a desire to connect the eastern States with Western Australia, and thus to make Federation a reality. Until a Bill authorizing the construction of the line is before us, I think that the honorable member&#39;s suggestion is premature. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5594</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYD</name.id>
<electorate>Grey</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">POYNTON, Alexander</name>
<name role="display">Mr POYNTON</name>
</talker>
<para>- I am not quite sure as to what the honorable member for New England desires. Does he wish to reserve&#39; an area upon each side of the proposed line for all time? </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5594</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KIC</name.id>
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<party />
<role />
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<name role="metadata">LONSDALE, Edmund</name>
<name role="display">Mr Lonsdale</name>
</talker>
<para>- No. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5594</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYD</name.id>
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<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">POYNTON, Alexander</name>
<name role="display">Mr POYNTON</name>
</talker>
<para>- I would remind, the honorable&#39; member that there is a land tax operative in South Australia. I understand that he believes in a land tax. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5594</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KIC</name.id>
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<party />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">LONSDALE, Edmund</name>
<name role="display">Mr Lonsdale</name>
</talker>
<para>- I do. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5594</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYD</name.id>
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<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">POYNTON, Alexander</name>
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<para>- I would point out to him that any land which might be alienated would be subject to a land tax. Personally, I do not see how we can define the particular locality in which any area should be reserved at the present time. The honorable member ought to be quite satisfied, seeing that in South Australia a land tax is in operation. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5594</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KIC</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">LONSDALE, Edmund</name>
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<para>- I am not satisfied with the kind of land tax that is levied there. I am of opinion that the country upon each side of the projected line should be reserved by the States which it will traverse. After the railway has been constructed it might be sold. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5594</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYD</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">POYNTON, Alexander</name>
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<para>- I have no doubt as to South Australia&#39;s attitude upon this matter. That State would be quite prepared to reserve land upon each side of the proposed line for certain purposes, but the suggestion that we should make provision for it in this Bill, even though we do not know the route which the railway will follow, seems to me a very impracticable one. If the honorable member will defer his proposal until the measure authorizing the construction of the line&#39; is under consideration he will be acting wisely. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5594</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JWG</name.id>
<electorate>Perth</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">FOWLER, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr FOWLER</name>
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<para>- I am quite in sympathy with the object which the honorable member for New England wishes to attain, but I contend that the present is not an opportune time to give effect to his suggestion. I can assure him that the members of the present Western Australian Government are fully seized of the necessity for preventing any unfair exploitation of the resources of that State. The previous Government were called upon to: deal with several cases in which attempts were made by syndicates to obtain undue control of large areas. These were promptly frustrated. If my memory serves me correctly, I think that even in the direction which the railway is intended to take some veiy active gentlemen endeavoured some&#39; time ago to secure large blocks of land. However, their little scheme was discovered, and quickly thwarted. The honorable mem- ber for New England may rest assured that the Western Australian Government are fully alive to the need for preventing exploitation of the national resources in theway that he fears. As regards mineral&#39; wealth, however, I confess that the positionis somewhat different. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5594</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JUV</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCWILLIAMS, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Mcwilliams</name>
</talker>
<para>- The land is no good, and the minerals are. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5594</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JWG</name.id>
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">FOWLER, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr FOWLER</name>
</talker>
<para>- I believe that the land is good. To a large extent it is unknown territory, but the honorable member knowsthat discoveries are being made which show that parts of the world that a few years ago were regarded as utterly worthless are of immense value. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5595</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KJ8</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">HUTCHISON, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Hutchison</name>
</talker>
<para>- Like the desert in South Australia. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5595</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JWG</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">FOWLER, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr FOWLER</name>
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<para>- That is a case in point ; but I have more particularly in mind the great country of Siberia. A few years ago it was regarded as a terrible wilderness, and the worst criminals were consigned there in order that fitting punishment might&#34; meet their misdeeds; but it is now being found excellent for settlement. I merely mention this as an illustration of the discoveries that will probably be made when this particular portion of Australia is being surveyed. I trust that competent men will be sent with the party with a view to reveal the resources of that belt of country. If that be done I believe it will be found that considerable mineral wealth exists there. I would ask that the consideration be kept before the House that this after, all is merely a legitimate inquiry, and that Western Australia is fairly entitled to expect that a matter of this kind, which is of considerable national import, will be taken in hand by the Federal Parliament now that the opportunity offers. I feel satisfied that the result of the inquiry, if it be undertaken, will be to add another valuable province to the Australian Commonwealth. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5595</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4P</name.id>
<electorate>East Sydney</electorate>
<party>Free Trade</party>
<role>Minister of External Affairs</role>
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">REID, George</name>
<name role="display">Mr REID</name>
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<para>. -I believe that every honorable member is in. full sympathy with the object which the honorable member for New England has in view. If such precautions as he suggests had been taken from the beginning, in connexion with the extension of railways throughout Australia, I believe that the whole of our railway debts would be represented by the value of the lands in the neighbourhood of the lines. Innumerable difficulties arise where the land has been alienated, but I believe that there is no such difficulty in connexion &#39;with almost the whole extent of. the country to be traversed by this projected1 line.. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5595</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KXO</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">PAGE, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Page</name>
</talker>
<para>- What afcout South Australia? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5595</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4P</name.id>
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<name role="metadata">REID, George</name>
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<para>- I understand that the whole of the country is within the Crown lands of South Australia and Western Australia. We cannot in any way interfere with the management of those Crown lands, either by the Parliament or the Government of South Australia, or by the Parliament or Government of Western &#39;Australia. My honorable friend, I am sure, does not intend that we should1-. But there is an obvious utility in directing the attention of those within whose government such matters are to the importance of the step suggested, and I can assure the House that I shall feel no difficulty in my own relations&#39; with the Premiers of those or other Australian States in entering upon the fullest correspondence with them on such a matter as that now before us. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5595</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K8L</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">THOMAS, Josiah</name>
<name role="display">Mr Thomas</name>
</talker>
<para>- South Australia was prepared to give the land to a private company to build the railway. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5595</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4P</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">REID, George</name>
<name role="display">Mr REID</name>
</talker>
<para>- I feel sure that in all these matters of great public importance, there will be no sensitiveness preventing the free interchange of views ; and I can assure my honorable friend, the member for New England, and also the honorable member for Newcastle: - who made the most important suggestion that as the work progresses surveys for mineral purposes should be made - that while these are matters which are entirely beyond our individual power as a Commonwealth, I feel confident that the different States Governments will be only too glad to have our assistance and cooperation in dealing with them. I can assure the House that all these matters will be placed fully before the Governments concerned. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5595</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KEA</name.id>
<electorate>Wentworth</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KELLY, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr KELLY</name>
</talker>
<para>- When the consideration of the Governor- General&#39;s message, was before us, the honorable and learned member for Parkes made the eminently wise suggestion that in dealing with this proposed survey we should endeavour to insure. that the States of Western Australia and South Australia, in the event of the Commonwealth failing to construct the line within a reasonable period of the completion of the survey, should bear the- cost of the survey,, for which we are now arranging to provide; I have only risen at the pfesent juncture to let the Minister in charge of the Bill know that, in the- event of the honorable and learned- member for Parkes failing when we go into Committee to move an amendment in. the direction I have outlined,. I shall, myself submit an amendment in the direction- - </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5595</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KTT</name.id>
<electorate>PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">SMITH, Arthur</name>
<name role="display">Mr BRUCE SMITH</name>
</talker>
<para>- The honorable member for Parramatta proposes to move an amendment. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5595</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KEA</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KELLY, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr KELLY</name>
</talker>
<para>- As I understand that an amendment isto be moved, I shall refrain from making any further observations at this stage. I thought it fair to let the Minister in charge of&#39; the Bill know what I intended to do. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5596</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KTT</name.id>
<electorate>PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">SMITH, Arthur</name>
<name role="display">Mr BRUCE SMITH</name>
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<para>- I never feel sadder than when I have to differ from the right honorable member for Swan and the other representatives of Western Australia. I sympathize with them in their desire, as the right honorable member says, to connect the east with the west, and so consummate the great scheme of Australian Union ; but there are practical considerations which ought not to be overlooked. The proposal made by the honorable member for New England is not without precedent, I think, in all the States. For two and a half years L. as Minister controlling the construction of railways in New South Wales, laid it down as an indispensable condition that in every instance a reserve of ten miles should be made on each side of any State railway which was to be constructed, and I have reason to know that, in consequence of that action, a very considerable increment accrued to the State. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5596</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KW6</name.id>
<electorate>NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">THOMSON, Dugald</name>
<name role="display">Mr DUGALD THOMSON</name>
</talker>
<para>- That matter was dealt with in each case when the Bill providing for the construction of the line was before Parliament. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5596</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KTT</name.id>
<electorate>PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">SMITH, Arthur</name>
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<para>- That is so. I quite admit that, in a Bill of the description now before us, we cannot provide for the actual reservation of land ; but we must remember, as business men, that this is an initial step that may ultimately lead to the construction of a line costing &#163;5,000,000 or &#163;6,000,000. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5596</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- Do not say &#163;5,000,000. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5596</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KTT</name.id>
<electorate>PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">SMITH, Arthur</name>
<name role="display">Mr BRUCE SMITH</name>
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<para>- Then I shall say &#163;3,000,000. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5596</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- That is nearer the mark. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5596</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KTT</name.id>
<electorate>PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">SMITH, Arthur</name>
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<para>- The principle involved is the same whether it be a line costing &#163;100,000 or &#163;10,000,000. &#34;It must be &#39;admitted by every honorable member that if a syndicate were to come tomorrow to the Commonwealth Parliament, or to go to the Western Australian Government, with an offer to construct the line, and propose, as a condition of the expenditure of so large a sum, that they should have a- reservation, and ultimately a gift, of a very large extent of territory on both sides of the line,, it would be regarded as a very business-like proposal, and one which any syndicate or any company would be. justified in making at all events, for the consideration of the Government about to have the railway constructed. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5596</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JWG</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FOWLER, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Fowler</name>
</talker>
<para>- Western Australia has suffered severely from that policy in the past, and will not incur the same suffering again. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5596</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KTT</name.id>
<electorate>PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">SMITH, Arthur</name>
<name role="display">Mr BRUCE SMITH</name>
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<para>- We are asked to embark on a preliminary survey, and if . honorable members consider for a moment they will be able to follow and acquiesce in the line of argument I am about to take. This expenditure is proposed for the purpose of laying down,&#39; in a rough way, perhaps, the line which this particular railway is intended to take in the future. I do not say that there will be shown, within a mile, the exact route which will ultimately be taken, but there will be an indication, as the result of a survey made at the expense of the Commonwealth, of the particular direction which the railway will follow. We all know that the intimation of the line of survey will be the signal for a number of adventurous spirits, whom I am not prepared for a moment to denounce - it will be the signal for a number of enterprising men to look round with . a view to purchasing land, which we know in some parts of Western Australia- </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Sir</inline>John Forrest. According to law, there can be no purchase of land in those districts in Western Australia. </para>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5596</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KTT</name.id>
<electorate>PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">SMITH, Arthur</name>
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</talker>
<para>- Well, then, it will be the signal for them to acquire land in some sort of way. I should be very sorry to approach the Western Australian Government with an offer, even to purchase land, a good deal of which has not yet been explored, from the fear they might accept my money. I am quite sure that we may readily assume that if anybody were to approach the Western Australian Government </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5596</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- The honorable and learned member ought not to libel Western Australia. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5596</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KTT</name.id>
<electorate>PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">SMITH, Arthur</name>
<name role="display">Mr BRUCE SMITH</name>
</talker>
<para>- I do not know that I am libelling Western Australia by saying that the people there are a businesslike community, prepared to sell land for money. I am quite satisfied that if any one were to approach the Western Australian Government and offer to take up land on long lease or in a freehold for money payment, the offer would be welcomed. But my point - from &#34;which the interjections are calculated to divert me - is that the moment this line of survey is, I shall not say determined, but indicated, a number of enterprising capitalists will endeavour tc&#171; get hold of land in the vicinity. They will know very well that should it become necessary to resume land, the test of the compensation will be what was given for it and what it was worth before the railway was actually undertaken. On the other hand, if the land is not resumed, the occupiers will acquire the increment which results from the construction of the railway through what, at present, is unexplored country. I consider it necessary that before embarking on this expenditure of ,&#163;20,000, we should require the, two Governments through whose territory the line is likely to run, to satisfy the Commonwealth Government that they have reserved from sale or lease a large extent of territory on each side. . The object is that when we, as a Parliament, hereafter undertake the actual construction, we may lay it down as a condition that the Commonwealth shall, in some form or other, have a <inline font-style="italic">quid fro quo</inline> in the shape of a large extent of territory which would represent compensation for the outlay. The honorable member for Perth suggested that this is an inopportune time to consider this matter. If I thought that the time was inopportune I should not attempt to stop the progress of the Bill at this stage ; but we are now about to sanction the expenditure of about ,&#163;20,000, for what purpose? For the purpose of showing the world the line that this railway is likely to take - for the purpose of pointing out to enterprising men, the particular direction in which it will pay them to take up land. If something is not done at this stage, we shall probably be told When we come to sanction the actual expenditure on the construction of the &#39;line, and we ask Western Australia and South Australia to offer some <inline font-style="italic">quid fro quo</inline> in the shape of land concessions, &#34; It is too late ; the moment the survey was completed the whole of the land along the line was taken up bv enterprising capitalists.&#34; </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5597</page.no>
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<para>- A great <inline font-style="italic">furore</inline> is being made about this matter ! </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5597</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KTT</name.id>
<electorate>PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
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<para>- The right honorable member for Swan says that we are getting up a great <inline font-style="italic">furore;</inline> but he is a keen business man himself, and I am quite sure he appreciates the logic of my argument. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5597</page.no>
<time.stamp />
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<para>- It would be a dishonorable thing for the Western Australian Government to do. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5597</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KTT</name.id>
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<name role="metadata">SMITH, Arthur</name>
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<para>- It is hardly fair for the right honorable gentleman to say that the suggestion I make, which involves the Western Australian Government in some action, would be dishonorable. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5597</page.no>
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<para>- I say it would be dishonorable on the part of the Western Australian Government to do such a thing. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5597</page.no>
<time.stamp />
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<para>- I do not think the right honorable gentleman is right in suggesting that I am proposing something which would involve the Western Australian Government in a dishonorable action. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5597</page.no>
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<para>- I beg the honorable and learned member&#39;s pardon, but I did not say what he now attributes to me. What I wished to imply was that if the Western Australian Government sold or disposed of the land while we were considering the advisability of constructing the railway, they would be acting discreditably and dishonorably </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5597</page.no>
<time.stamp />
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<para>- I am speaking from practical experience. I know that the New South Wales Government directed the resumption of land on each side of a railway at the time of survey - directly there was an indication of the line along which a railway was to be constructed. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5597</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KVW</name.id>
<electorate>CAPRICORNIA, QUEENSLAND</electorate>
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<name role="metadata">THOMSON, David Alexander</name>
<name role="display">Mr DAVID THOMSON</name>
</talker>
<para>- Otherwise we should have all the &#34; land-sharks &#34; at work. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5597</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KTT</name.id>
<electorate>PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
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<name role="metadata">SMITH, Arthur</name>
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<para>- I will not use the word &#34; sharks,&#34; because I think it represents too hysterical a view of the position. A number of enterprising capitalists are willing to invest money with a view to the settlement of the country, and we need not allow our differences of opinion as to how those gentlemen should be characterized to interfere with the question we are considering. We all admit that there are in the community men with money who would seize upon any opportunity to get such land at the cheapest possible price; and if the Commonwealth is going to construct the line, it is the Commonwealth, and not capitalists outside, who should be considered. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5597</page.no>
<time.stamp />
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<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
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</talker>
<para>- Hear, hear ! The honorable and learned member&#39; is a good Socialist. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5597</page.no>
<time.stamp />
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<para>- I am afraid that some honorable members are individualists without knowing it. If this is a Bill which will immediately lead to the determination of the line along which the proposed railway is to be constructed, then this is .the occasion for taking steps to require the two States Governments concerned to reserve land on each side to a width which this Parliament may determine. We know very well that in connexion with a railway which has been constructed in a northerly part&#39; of. South </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<para>Australia bv private enterprise, a concession of a very extraordinary and, perhaps, startling character has been offered by the State Government. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5598</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KJ8</name.id>
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<para>- That was one of the most shocking concessions ever suggested. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5598</page.no>
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<para>- It was a concession offered and not considered good enough toy any syndicate in the world. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5598</page.no>
<time.stamp />
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<para>- Honorable members know that similar concessions have been granted in Queensland and New Zealand. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5598</page.no>
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<para>- And also in Western Australia. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5598</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KTT</name.id>
<electorate>PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
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<para>- I ask honorable members for Western Australia what objection they can have to the suggestion I have made? The Western Australian Government would only be asked to undertake to reserve a certain width of land along the whole line of railway immediately the route is ascertained. If no objection to the SuKgestion can be fairly offered, then the Western Australian people and representatives ought to assist any one who seeks to impose such a condition. I, therefore, thoroughly approve of the suggestion made by the honorable member for New England, and I do not hesitate to say that this is not only the most opportune occasion, but the only occasion, on which such a proposal can be effectively made. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5598</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K99</name.id>
<electorate>Lang</electorate>
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<name role="metadata">JOHNSON, Elliot</name>
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<para>- I am thoroughly in accord with the principles just enunciated by the honorable and learned member for Parkes. I confess I am not quite sure whether this was the occasion to raise this particular point, but the arguments which have been addressed to the House convince me that the present opportunity should be seized by the Government to enter into negotiations or correspondence with the Governments of the States concerned, with a view to preserve the public rights in the public lands along the route of the proposed railway. I have often expressed the opinion that the honorable and learned member for Parkes was a democrat, and I think that the speech he has just delivered fully bears out that contention. Some of our honorable friends interjected that the honorable and learned member&#39;s proposal was an example of Socialism. But there is a distinct difference between this proposal and socialistic proposals, because in this case the public rights in. the lands are sought to be preserved. There is&#39; no suggestion to nationalize any private capital or any private industrial enterprise. It is a purely protective act so far as the rights of the general public are concerned, having for its object the prevention of public rights in public property being invaded for private gain. In the past we have had so much experience of the extent to which public lands have been exploited by private individuals, when public expenditure has enhanced their value, that it is our duty to see that the public rights are preserved before sums of money are voted by the Federal Parliament which would have the effect of enhancing the value of the public estate. The lands through which this survey is proposed to be made still belong to South Australia and Western Australia. It is only reasonable that the Government should enter into communication with those States, with a view to preserving to the public a certain proportion of the lands on each side of the route surveyed, and so prevent their passing into the hands of private individuals. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5598</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JWG</name.id>
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<name role="metadata">FOWLER, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Fowler</name>
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<para>- That is practically the policy of Western Australia. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5598</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K99</name.id>
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<para>- That may be so, but the trouble is that honorable members who represent different portions of the two States in this Parliament have not the power to speak for them, or to say what their Governments will do in this connexion. They may have full sympathy with the ideas which are here expressed, but they have no power to say that this or that will be done. The only way in which we can get a satisfactory assurance that these things will be done will be by negotiations such as those which are proposed, and which I am very glad to hear have been promised by the Prime Minister. I hope that they will lead to a recognition of the. necessity of preserving the public rights in the lands through which the railway will ultimately pass. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5598</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L1N</name.id>
<electorate>Corangamite</electorate>
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<name role="metadata">WILSON, John Gratton</name>
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<para>- We should first bear in mind the fact that the survey or the construction of this railway has been made a Commonwealth matter. It ought to be shown bv its advocates that either the survey or the building of the railway, would be of considerable -benefit to the whole of the Commonwealth. I have read most carefully the case as put forward by people in Western Australia; I have read as many other papers as I . could get, as well as portions of the diaries of celebrated explorers who went through part of this country, tout I have not found one recommendation for a survey of this line at present. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5598</page.no>
<time.stamp />
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<para>- I am afraid that the honorable member started with a decided prejudice. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<para>- If I were to allow private reasons to rise above public considerations I should vote for the construction of this railway, in order to have a rapid connexion between this side of the continent and Perth. But I feel that the first question we have to consider is whether the Commonwealth is justified in incurring this expenditure at the present moment. All the evidence points distinctly in the opposite direction. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JX9</name.id>
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<name role="metadata">FRAZER, Charles</name>
<name role="display">Mr Frazer</name>
</talker>
<para>- Is the honorable member against getting information ? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
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<para>- It is not a question of getting information. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
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<para>- It is absolutely so. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">WILSON, John Gratton</name>
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<para>- We are already provided with a considerable amount of information on the subject. We have had a very close inquiry ; we have had many persons going through portions of this country, and, so far as can be ascertained, the best thing that one can get to eat there is a wurrung or a chockalock, and one&#39;s supply of water has to be carried. I feel that the construction of this railway may be very necessary when the hands of civilization in Port Augusta and Kalgoorlie have stretched out nearer to one another than they have done. But that I think will riot be until some time next century. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KJ8</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">HUTCHISON, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Hutchison</name>
</talker>
<para>- We have a splendid gold and copper field there now. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L1N</name.id>
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">WILSON, John Gratton</name>
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<para>- There may be a splendid gold and copper field. I can tell the honorable member of another part of Western Australia where there is a splendid gold-field, and where copper, gems, and other things can be found, if they could be worked. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KJ8</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">HUTCHISON, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Hutchison</name>
</talker>
<para>- -But in this case any quantity of payable gold is being taken out. Hundreds of men are working on the field. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L1N</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">WILSON, John Gratton</name>
<name role="display">Mr WILSON</name>
</talker>
<para>- Evidently the honorable member seems to know more about the position than a great many persons do. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KJ8</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">HUTCHISON, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Hutchison</name>
</talker>
<para>- Of course I know about my own country </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L1N</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">WILSON, John Gratton</name>
<name role="display">Mr WILSON</name>
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<para>- Yes ; but the honorable member has discovered a marvellous gold and copper mine of which no one else has ever heard I think. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KJ8</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">HUTCHISON, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Hutchison</name>
</talker>
<para>- What nonsense ! It is known on the Stock Exchange here. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L1N</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">WILSON, John Gratton</name>
<name role="display">Mr WILSON</name>
</talker>
<para>- -Will this gold and copper field, of which the honorable member speaks, justify the expenditure of &#163;5,000,000 in the construction of a railway across the continent ? </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KJ8</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">HUTCHISON, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Hutchison</name>
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<para>- Certainly not, of itself. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L1N</name.id>
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<name role="metadata">WILSON, John Gratton</name>
<name role="display">Mr WILSON</name>
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<para>- Probably there are gold and copper mines, and very good sheep walks, and perhaps good dairying country in the centre of Australia. But the duty of this Parliament is to allow further development to go on in that direction before it enters upon any expenditure on a project of this kind. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JWA</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">CARPENTER, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Carpenter</name>
</talker>
<para>- Would not the honorable member assist inquiry ? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L1N</name.id>
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">WILSON, John Gratton</name>
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</talker>
<para>- I shall not vote for the expenditure of one penny on this railway until we have proof that there is some justification for its construction in the near future. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JWG</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">FOWLER, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Fowler</name>
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<para>- Why not give us a chance to get the proof? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L1N</name.id>
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<para>- My honorable friends will have that chance at some time in the next century, when I shall not be here to vote either for or against the project. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUF</name.id>
<electorate>Darling</electorate>
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<name role="metadata">SPENCE, William</name>
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<para>- It is noticeable that so far we have not heard to-d&#39;ay anything about a large tract of stony and useless country. It is rather pleasing to find that honorable members on the other side have discovered that there is good land between Port Augusta and Kalgoorlie. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KTT</name.id>
<electorate>PARKES, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">SMITH, Arthur</name>
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</talker>
<para>- I am assuming that it is rolling plain. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5599</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUF</name.id>
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<para>- Previously we heard different opinions expressed. I do not know whether recent developments have had the result of throwing any light on the character of the country lying between these two points, but that would appear to be the case. From the first, I have been favorable to a survey of this line being made. In this case, as in others, we can reasonably . ask the Government to carry out their declared policy of consulting the States concerned. We should have an assurance that the States concerned are prepared to guarantee the reservation of the adjacent lands, for the reasons already given, before a survey is commenced. I do not see how we could&#34; very well make that stipulation in the Bill, because we have no control over the lands in the Commonwealth. We are entering upon an undertaking which is of an exceptional nature. What is proposed is practically to give a bonus to the two States which are most directly interested in the survey and construction of this line. Honorable members may feel that the construction of the line is likely to follow the survey, and, personally. F think it will. I hold the view that probably in a few years we shall have the whole of the railway systems of the </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<para class="block">States under the control of the Commonwealth, and, therefore, I am not so much alarmed as are some other honorable members that the Commonwealth should be requested to undertake the construction of this line. I do not suppose we shall rush into the undertaking for some little time. What is proposed is certainly an important departure, in connexion with which we should be assured of the distinct co-operation of the States. The honorable members for New England and Parkes have pointed out what usually takes place .when railways are projected, and there can be no doubt that persons would be found very glad to take up a large area of land along the route of this railway. They would be able to get it at a very cheap rate, and they would naturally regard it is a very good speculation. So far from opposing this measure, T am in favour of it, but I think, with the honorable members to whom I have referred, .that we should have a distinct pledge from Ministers that they will ask the Governments of both the States interested for an assurance that the land for a certain distance on each side of the proposed line will be reserved from alienation. If this were done, we should be in a position to refuse to survey or construct the line later if the States Governments failed to give that assurance. We know (that some persons are always on the watch for an opportunity to acquire land along the route of a projected railway for speculative purposes. No one can find fault with them for that, but it is our duty to see that the public interests are not sacrificed to the private interests of any syndicate. For that reason, I am heartily in accord with the &#39;suggestion of the honorable member for New England, that, in this instance, steps should be taken to see that the interests of the public are conserved. The construction of this railway will be a very great undertaking, involving many important considerations that are not now before us. The whole question of the management of railways by the Commonwealth, and the setting up of a new Commonwealth Department is involved. In connexion with such undertakings the States are protected by the fact that thev have control of the land. In New South Wales we not only reserve land from alienation, but we have introduced, the betterment principle in connexion with railway construction. In South Australia there is a land tax which may operate with a somewhat similar effect, but the Com- monwealth Government would have no such protection, if it were to undertake the construction of a railway. It is, therefore, desirable, when the construction of the line is not yet before us, that we should look ahead to what our position would be if we should agree eventually to undertake it. I hold the opinion that the States chiefly concerned should undertake the construction of the line, unless some move is made to bring all the railway systems under the control of the Commonwealth Government. It would not do, I think, to have divided control of railways; because the construction of branch lines following the general development of the country would involve very difficult problems. I have always believed that the Commonwealth Government should have control of all the railways, and I have no fear that if that were the case we should be able to overcome all these difficulties. I have no doubt that the people of Western Australia would be in a position to undertake the survey, and perhaps the construction of the line, but we have to recognise the fact that South Australia is not a rich State, and we are, therefore, justified in offering the comparatively small sum which, would be required to carry out a survey of the line. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5600</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KEA</name.id>
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">KELLY, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Kelly</name>
</talker>
<para>- Does the honorable member think that the sum proposed will cover the whole cost? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5600</page.no>
<time.stamp />
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<para>-The Bill proposes &#163;20,000 as the outside cost of the survey. From what I have read concerning the country, and from what I have heard from persons who know it, it would appear to be very easy country for the purposes of railway survey and construction. A very large area of the country is comparatively flat, and is not covered with scrub to any great extent, so that the cost of survey should not be very great. I believe that the Government will be prepared to give the assurance for which we ask. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5600</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KW6</name.id>
<electorate>NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906</party>
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<name role="metadata">THOMSON, Dugald</name>
<name role="display">Mr DUGALD THOMSON</name>
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<para>- Hear, hear. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5600</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUF</name.id>
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<para>- There should, I think, be no objection to the proposal if we have an assurance from the Government that they will make it a condition precedent to the survey that a favorable reply shall be received from the States Governments to a communication requesting them to guarantee the reservation of a certain area of land on each side of the line. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5600</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KXO</name.id>
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">PAGE, James</name>
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<para>- What is the good of it unless it is put in the Bill? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5601</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUF</name.id>
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<para>- I fail to see how we can put it in the Bill, as we have no power under the Constitution to control the lands of the States, and further, until the survey is made, we should not be in a position to plot the lands which ought to be reserved.. Western Australia is practically cut off from the Commonwealth under existing circumstances as effectually as if it were an island, and I agree with the general contention of Western Australian representatives in this connexion. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5601</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KXO</name.id>
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<name role="metadata">PAGE, James</name>
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<para>- Why not build a line to Tasmania, which is also cut off? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5601</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUF</name.id>
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<para>- We may probably later on have a service of flying machines; ! to provide communication with Tasmania. I have no doubt, that the States would give the guarantee suggested, because we have the assurance that Western Australia has acted upon the principle, and the honorable member for Perth tells us that the Western Australian Government has already refused to allow a syndicate to take up land on the route of this very line. If the States Governments are prepared to give the assurance to which I have referred, I see no objection to the measure. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5601</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L0K</name.id>
<electorate>Laanecoorie</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">SALMON, Charles</name>
<name role="display">Mr SALMON</name>
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<para>- I hope honorable members will forgive me. if I make a few observations on this question, about which I frankly admit that I feel very strongly. We were told during a previous debate that a distinct bargain had been made in connexion with this particular matter. I have seen no official confirmation of any such bargain. Although some of the people of Western Australia may have been induced to vote for the Federal Constitution Bill on grounds other than the provisions contained in it, and for reasons other than were put forward in the rest of the States, this House is not bound by the arguments used there by the advocates of the Bill. But if we pass the measure now before us, we shall be committed to the construction of the proposed railway, probably at no distant date. It may be that its construction will be postponed, because of an unfavorable report, but, in agreeing to the survey, we are committing ourselves to a first step towards the construction of the line, which we shall not be able to retrace. In my opinion, the only justification for considering the proposal at the present juncture is that it will provide a means of defence. I do not think that the alleged advantages to be obtained by a quicker carriage of mails should weigh with us at all. But, even so far as defence is concerned, I feel that there are many other ways in which the money could be more advantageously expended. The two States most concerned are South Australia and Western Australia. We have had very strong representations of the opinion of the people of Western Australia in regard to the proposal, but the opinion of the people of South Australia has not been nearly so strongly expressed here. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5601</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KXO</name.id>
<electorate />
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<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">PAGE, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Page</name>
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<para>- They do not wish for the railway. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5601</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L0K</name.id>
<electorate />
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<name role="metadata">SALMON, Charles</name>
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<para>- That is my opinion. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5601</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KJ8</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">HUTCHISON, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Hutchison</name>
</talker>
<para>- That is because they wish to see the railway to the Northern Territory constructed first. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5601</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L0K</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">SALMON, Charles</name>
<name role="display">Mr SALMON</name>
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<para>- Judging by the reports which I have read, and the speeches which I have heard in this Chamber, the representatives of South Australia are not keen about this proposal&#39;. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5601</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KLB</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">MAHON, Hugh</name>
<name role="display">Mr Mahon</name>
</talker>
<para>- What South Australian members have spoken against it? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5601</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L0K</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">SALMON, Charles</name>
<name role="display">Mr SALMON</name>
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<para>- -The honorable member for Barker said there was no immediate hurry and no great desire for the line in South Australia. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5601</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KLB</name.id>
<electorate />
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<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">MAHON, Hugh</name>
<name role="display">Mr Mahon</name>
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<para>- No. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5601</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L0K</name.id>
<electorate />
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<name role="metadata">SALMON, Charles</name>
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<para>- Well, the honorable member will not deny that the honorable member for Barker was lukewarm in regard to the proposal. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5601</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KLB</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">MAHON, Hugh</name>
<name role="display">Mr Mahon</name>
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<para>- He is not hostile to the construction of the line. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5601</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L0K</name.id>
<electorate />
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<name role="metadata">SALMON, Charles</name>
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<para>- I have not said that the representatives of South Australia are hostile to the construction of the line; but they are not keen about it. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5601</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KLB</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">MAHON, Hugh</name>
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<para>- That is what the honorable member says now ; but he conveyed the impression at first that they are hostile. As a matter of fact, nearly all the representatives of South Australia are very favorable to the project. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5601</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L0K</name.id>
<electorate />
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<para>- That is very different from being strong advocates of it. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. O&#39;Connor,</inline> in paragraph 26 of his report, says - </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<quote>
<para>During its construction very considerable benefit would accrue to several of the States of the Commonwealth, and more especially to Western Australia and South Australia, through the supply of various materials required for construction works, and also food for the men engaged, including increase in revenue of railways by carriage of same over the local lines. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">I think that that will be generally admitted. If the representatives of South Australia are not strong and strenuous advocates of the line, it behoves the representatives of other States, which will not benefit so directly, to pause before agreeing to the tremendous outlay proposed. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. O&#39;Connor</inline> estimated that the cost of rails, connexions, points, and so on. will be about &#163;1,155,000, and the total expenditure &#163;1,155,000, He assumes that an average speed of forty miles an hour will be maintained by the trains, and he allows for the use of 60-lb. rails. I do not set myself up as a railway expert, but I know that it has been the experience of Victoria that heavy trains cannot safely be run at an express speed on 60-lb. rails. If we use such rails, and the traffic proves to be heavy, we shall be faced almost immediately with the necessity of spending a great deal more money to improve the line. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5602</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
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<para>- <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. O&#39;Connor</inline> recommended heavier rails than 60-lb. rails. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5602</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L0K</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">SALMON, Charles</name>
<name role="display">Mr SALMON</name>
</talker>
<para>- Yes; but that would make the cost much greater than &#163;1,155,000. As the weight of rails is increased their price increases considerably. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5602</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KJ8</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">HUTCHISON, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Hutchison</name>
</talker>
<para>- But it pays to use heavy rails. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5602</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L0K</name.id>
<electorate />
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<para>- When the traffic is sufficiently heavy to justify their use, because, where light rails are used for heavy traffic, the cost of maintenance is enormous. Honorable members are asked to believe that the total cost of the line will be about &#163;4,600,000, but if they take into consideration the nature of the permanent way that is provided for, and the fact that heavy trains are to be run over the line at high rates of speed, they will see that that estimate would soon be exceeded. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5602</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
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<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
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<para>- No; the actual cost would be less. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. O&#39;Connor</inline> took the longer route. </para>
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<page.no>5602</page.no>
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<para>- The honorable member for Perth alluded to the fact that the railway would traverse what is to a large extent unknown territory. </para>
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<talk.start>
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<page.no>5602</page.no>
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<para>- It is not unknown territory. Every inch of it is known. </para>
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<page.no>5602</page.no>
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<para>- Then the statements of two of the representatives of Western Australia in regard to it are contradictory. </para>
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<page.no>5602</page.no>
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<para>- Its capabilities are largely unknown. </para>
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<page.no>5602</page.no>
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<para>- In paragraph 23 of the report it is stated that, even on the moderate estimate of cost which has been made, the Commonwealth will have to bear for some years an annual loss of &#163;28,000. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. O&#39;Connor</inline> goes on to say - </para>
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<quote>
<para>But this result would no doubt improve in the course of time, such being the history of railways all over the world. </para>
</quote>
<para>I am not prepared to commit the Commonwealth to a huge expenditure upon the prospect of such an improvement. </para>
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<page.no>5602</page.no>
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<para>- In the case of ordinary railways, .the estimate of cost may be increased by 50 per cent., and that of the revenue decreased by a similar proportion. </para>
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<page.no>5602</page.no>
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<para>- Even at a moderate estimate pf the cost of construction and maintenance, we have to face an inevitable deficit of &#163;28,000 per annum for a series of years. I would ask honorable members to remember what took place when we were discussing the expenditure that would be involved if a dissolution took place. The opinion was then expressed that one of the first considerations ;should be economy, and, if honorable members cast their memories back still further, they will remember that we agreed without demur to a proposition that we should go before the electors at the same time as the members of the Senate, in order to save the cost of a second election. In the face of these facts, how are we going to justify an expenditure which is so unwarranted at the present time, and which would go so far towards minimizing the benefit conferred upon the Commonwealth by our previous action in this Parliament ? </para>
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<page.no>5602</page.no>
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<para>- &#163;20,000 is a terribly large amount. </para>
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<page.no>5602</page.no>
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<para>-The right honorable gentleman is accustomed ,&#39;to deal with enormous sums in a fashion with which other Ministers are unfamiliar. Fortunately for him, he was backed up by a substantial majority of the people of his State, and I admit that he expended large sums of money to the greatest advantage. However, as I am opposed to borrowing, so far as the Commonwealth is concerned, and I do not consider it advisable to impose direct taxation, I cannot follow the right honorable gentleman in treating lightly the expenditure of even &#163;20,000. The honorable member for Darling told us that under the Constitution we could exercise no control over the land along the route of the proposed line, and upon that ground he based his opposition to any proposal to engraft upon the Bill a provision that the States should first agree to certain reservations of land. I would&#39; suggest, however, that we surely have the right to make conditions in respect to the expenditure of a large sum of money upon such a work as that contemplated. </para>
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<page.no>5603</page.no>
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<para>- Any excuse is good enough, if the honorable member objects to the proposal. </para>
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<page.no>5603</page.no>
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<para>- That may be the view of the honorable member, but I take very much higher ground than he supposes. It has been proposed that we should take over the debts of the States, and it is possible that prior to assuming their responsibilities in that regard, we shall make it a condition that they shall hand over the control of the railways to the Commonwealth. </para>
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<page.no>5603</page.no>
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<para>- They are not likely to hand them over. </para>
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<page.no>5603</page.no>
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<para>- If we could make a condition of that kind, surely we could provide that the land along the route ofthe proposed railway should <inline font-style="italic">be</inline> vested in the Commonwealth. </para>
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<talk.start>
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<page.no>5603</page.no>
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<para>- We shall require to see a much better Federal spirit evinced before the States intrust any more concerns to the Commonwealth. </para>
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<page.no>5603</page.no>
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<para>- The honorable member for Perth told us that the experience of Western Australia in. connexion with the construction of railways had been so unfortunate that he did not think that it would undertake any further works of that de: scription. </para>
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<page.no>5603</page.no>
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<para>- I was referring only to private railways constructed on the land grant system. </para>
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<page.no>5603</page.no>
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<para>- I beg the honorable member&#39;s pardon. I misunderstood his remarks. The Western Australian Government could not reasonably object to a proviso such as that indicated. </para>
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<page.no>5603</page.no>
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<para>- They would welcome it. </para>
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<page.no>5603</page.no>
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<para>-I believe that this is the proper time to make the condition. It would be of no use for us to wait until the work had been commenced or completed. It must be remembered that no fixed sum of money has been allocated to cover the cost of the survey, and that our experience in the past is that estimates in connexion with works of this kind are very frequently exceeded. If the work were in progress, and it were found that&#163;20,000 was not sufficient, the Government would have no compunction about asking for a further sum of, say,&#163;10,000 or <inline font-style="italic">&#163;20,000.</inline> After having committed ourselves to the expenditure of the first amount, we could scarcely avoid making the additional appropriation necessary for the completion of the work. During a recent debate frequent reference was made to the ultimate aims of a certain party in this House We must not lose sight of the aims of those honorable members who are in favour of the proposed survey. Their aim is the construction of the line, and those honorable members who do not believe in that are fully justified in opposing the proposed survey. </para>
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<page.no>5603</page.no>
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<para>- If our advocacy is not justified, the survey will demonstrate it. </para>
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<page.no>5603</page.no>
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