Permalink
Switch branches/tags
Nothing to show
Find file Copy path
Fetching contributors…
Cannot retrieve contributors at this time
11654 lines (11653 sloc) 655 KB
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<hansard xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd" version="2.1" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
<session.header>
<date>1905-08-30</date>
<parliament.no>2</parliament.no>
<session.no>2</session.no>
<period.no>0</period.no>
<chamber>REPS</chamber>
<page.no>1652</page.no>
<proof>0</proof>
</session.header>
<chamber.xscript>
<para class="block">HouseofRepresentatives. </para>
<business.start>
<day.start>1905-08-30</day.start>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Speaker</inline>took the Chair at 2.30 p.m., and read prayers. </para>
<para class="block">PETITIONS. </para>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Sir LANGDON</inline>BONYTHON presented five petitions from certain residents of South Australia, praying that stringent legislation be enacted to prohibit the importation and sale of opium for smoking purposes within the Commonwealth. </para>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. HUTCHISON</inline>presented seven similar petitions from residents of South Australia. </para>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. GLYNN</inline>presented four similar petitions from residents of South Australia. </para>
<para>Petitions received. </para>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. CHANTER.</inline>- Referring to the point of order taken by the honorable member for Kennedy yesterday, in regard to a petition presented by the honorable and learned member for Wannon, I should like to know, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Speaker,</inline> if you have yet arrived at a decision in the matter-? </para>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. SPEAKER.</inline>- I said that I would look through the petition, and if I found that it was one which should not have been received, would report the fact to the </para>
<para class="block">House. I have looked through it, but as I did not come to the conclusion that it should npt have been received, I have no report to make. </para>
<para class="block">CONDUCT OF BUSINESS. </para>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. WILKS.-</inline>I wish to ask the Prime Minister a question in regard to the following paragraph, which has appeared in the Melbourne <inline font-style="italic">Age: -</inline></para>
<para>The Federal. Labour Party is prepared to support the Prime Minister in anv measures he may see fit to take to secure speedier progress with legislation in the House of Representatives. If the Opposition resents the application of the new 11.30 p.m. closing timerule, members of the party are willing to assist the Government by providing relays to form a quorum during any all night sittings which may become necessary. Labour members f reely say that <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Deakin</inline> must be prepared to fight the organized obstruction of the Opposition without mercy for the rest of the session if he is to see legislation now in suspense passed into law. The policy of &#34; graceful concession &#34; must be frankly abandoned when dealing with the Cooks, Wilks, or Sydney Smiths. </para>
<para class="block">Is there any foundation for the statement that the Prime Minister has made, or is making, such an arrangement with that section of his supporters, known as the Labour Party, who are acting as galley slaves to this Government, and who are so desirous of repressing the right of criticism and the free discussion of political measures ? </para>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. DEAKIN.-</inline>On behalf of the House, I take exception to the phrase which the honorable member has applied to a section of it, which is indefensible in regard to any party. The paragraph referred to was published without my knowledge, and the statement it contains is news. The honorable member for Corangamite has publicly alluded to possibilities of the same kind, but&#39; I do not attribute it to him. So far from desiring to take advantage of any arrangement to suppress criticism, I agreed with the honorable member for Dalley last evening that at10.45 p.m. I would accede to the request of a member of the Opposition, whom he named, that progress should be reported. I was, therefore, surprised when the honorable member for Darwin rose to speak, but when he informed methat he could not conclude his speech before 11. 30 p.m., felt that I could not refuse to him a courtesy which had already been promised to a memberof the Opposition. </para>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. WILSON.</inline>- The suggestion that I have given to the <inline font-style="italic">Age</inline> the information on which the paragraph referred to is based is without foundation. That journal is not in the habit of coming to me for information, nor would it be likely to publish any information that I might give to it. The remarks which I made recently outside were made on my own responsibility, and without consultation with any member on this side of the Chamber. I was not present on Friday last, when the Prime Minister made an announcement as to the future conduct of business, but I read in the press that he had said thathe intended to force members to sit late, and I replied that, if that was to be done, I would be prepared to meet force with force. </para>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. KING</inline>O&#39;MALLEY.- If an understanding has been arrived at between the Prime Minister and the honorable member for Dalley, that a member of the Opposition should open the discussion on the Budget this afternoon, I am ready to give way. </para>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. DEAKIN.</inline>- The understanding was only in regard <inline font-style="italic">to</inline> the hour of adjournment last night. </para>
</business.start>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>IMMIGRATION RESTRICTION ACT</title>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KZH</name.id>
<electorate>WANNON, VICTORIA</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">ROBINSON, Arthur</name>
<name role="display">Mr ROBINSON</name>
</talker>
<para>- Referring to the answer given by the Prime Minister yesterday that &#34; exemption certificates are not generally used in connexion with British subjects,&#34; I would like him to state what steps must be taken, either in Australia or in Great Britain, by an employer who wishes to bring here labour under contract, or bv an employe who wishes to come here under contract? Where must such steps be taken? </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>009MD</name.id>
<electorate>BALLAARAT, VICTORIA</electorate>
<party>Protectionist</party>
<role>Minister for External Affairs</role>
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">DEAKIN, Alfred</name>
<name role="display">Mr DEAKIN</name>
</talker>
<para>- It was intimated, when the first case in connexion with the Act arose, that the proper course to follow in such instances would be to send the terms of the proposed contract to the Government, while the proper Department to address, either within Australia or from beyond the Commonwealth, would be the Department of External Affairs. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L1N</name.id>
<electorate>CORANGAMITE, VICTORIA</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">WILSON, John Gratton</name>
<name role="display">Mr WILSON</name>
</talker>
<para>- I learn from a paragraph in one of this morning&#39;s newspapers that it is the intention of the authorities of the Church&#39; of England in South Australia to import a Bishop from England. I should like to know, for the information of the public, what proceedings must be taken by them to provide for his introduction? </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K4E</name.id>
<electorate>WERRIWA, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CONROY, Alfred</name>
<name role="display">Mr CONROY</name>
</talker>
<para>- In view of the importance of this subject, I ask the Prime Minister if he is prepared to amend the Act, so as to make it clear that passports are not required by British subjects coming here, and that its provisions apply only to men coming out under contract to fill the places&#39; of others on strike. </para>
</talk.start>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>009MD</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">DEAKIN, Alfred</name>
<name role="display">Mr DEAKIN</name>
</talker>
<para>- Whenever the amendment of this or any other Act is intended, it will be a matter of Ministerial policy which will be duly communicated to the&#39; House. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>RUSSO-JAPANESE WAR</title>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K7U</name.id>
<electorate>CORIO, VICTORIA</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CROUCH, Richard</name>
<name role="display">Mr CROUCH</name>
</talker>
<para>- Seeing the importance to us as a Pacific Power of the war in the East, I ask the Prime Minister if he is able to announce to the House the receipt of any&#39; official communication in regard to the declaration of peace between Japan and Russia, which is alleged to have been concluded? </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>009MD</name.id>
<electorate />
<party>Protectionist</party>
<role />
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">DEAKIN, Alfred</name>
<name role="display">Mr DEAKIN</name>
</talker>
<para>- There is no official information. If there were, it would have been my duty to convey it to the House. I am informed, however, that the assertion is made by the cable correspondents who serve almost the whole of the Australian press that peace has been officially declared. If that intelligence be true, and there is good reason to believe that it is, no more welcome news has reached this Commonwealth for many months past. The cessation of this sanguinary and costly war will be hailed with the greatest satisfaction by peoples all round the world, and nowhere will the restoration of friendly relations in the East, and the developments which we trust will follow the declaration of peace, be more hopefully hailed than in the Commonwealth. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>QUARANTINE AND LIGHT-HOUSES</title>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KJ8</name.id>
<electorate>HINDMARSH, SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">HUTCHISON, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr HUTCHISON</name>
</talker>
<para>- Have the Government considered the advisability of taking under the Constitution powers in regard to the control of quarantine, light-houses, &#38;c. ? If so, do they propose to do this at an early date? </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>009MD</name.id>
<electorate />
<party>Protectionist</party>
<role />
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">DEAKIN, Alfred</name>
<name role="display">Mr DEAKIN</name>
</talker>
<para>- The matter is under consideration, and, if time will permit, will probably be submitted this session. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>EXPORT OF AUSTRALIAN HARVESTERS</title>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1653</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KZH</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">ROBINSON, Arthur</name>
<name role="display">Mr ROBINSON</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Minister of Trade and Customs, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>Whether he will inform the House how many &#34;Stripper Harvesters&#34; of Australian origin have been exported from 1st July, 1904, to 1st August, 1905, and to what places? </para>
</quote>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1654</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KIN</name.id>
<electorate>HUME, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>Protectionist</party>
<role>Minister for Trade and Customs</role>
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">LYNE, William</name>
<name role="display">Sir WILLIAM LYNE</name>
</talker>
<para>- In reply to the honorable and learned member I have to state: - </para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>Number exported (1905), 252. Destination - Argentine, Algeria, Cape Colony, Italy, Tunis. </para>
<para>Prior to 1st January, 1905, no separate record was kept of the imports and exports of stripper harvesters as distinct from agricultural implements, therefore no particulars can be given for the year 1904. </para>
</quote>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>1654</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>NEW SHORT SERVICE RIFLES</title>
<page.no>1654</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1654</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K7U</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CROUCH, Richard</name>
<name role="display">Mr CROUCH</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Minister representing the Minister of Defence, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>In the new short service rifles issued to the Light Horse, is it true that these have no &#34; cut off &#34; to the magazines ? </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>Is it safe to issue rifles under such conditions ? </para>
</item>
<item label="3.">
<para>Were these rifles sent in this condition by the British War Office ; and is it further true that no bayonets have been supplied with these rifles? </para>
</item>
<item label="4.">
<para>What action does the Minister of Defence propose to take under the circumstances? </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1654</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KDR</name.id>
<electorate>RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>Protectionist</party>
<role>Vice-President of the Executive Council</role>
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">EWING, Thomas</name>
<name role="display">Mr EWING</name>
</talker>
<para>- I have been supplied with the following answers: - </para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>Yes. The Department in this are following the lead of the War Office. In the Imperial service the &#34; cut off &#34; is only provided for the short rifle for use by the Naval Force. </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>The &#34;cut off&#34; is provided so as to temporarily convert the magazine rifle into a &#34; single loader,&#34; and not for purposes of safety. 3. (a) Yes; the rifles were sent out from the War Office without &#34; cut offs.&#34; </para>
<list type="loweralpha">
<item label="(i)">
<para>No bayonets were ordered as it is proposed to make use of our large stock of triangular bayonets by having them locally converted into a &#34;rapier&#34; bayonet. Designs are now under consideration. </para>
</item>
</list>
</item>
<item label="4.">
<para>It is proposed, for the present, to follow the Imperial practice. </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>1654</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>HORSHAM-WARRACKNABEAL TELEPHONE</title>
<page.no>1654</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1654</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KZH</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">ROBINSON, Arthur</name>
<name role="display">Mr ROBINSON</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the PostmasterGeneral, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<list type="loweralpha-dotted">
<item label="r.">
<para>Whether he is aware that telephonic communication between Horsham and Warracknabeal was authorized some considerable time ago? </para>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="2.">
<para>When is such communication likely to be established ? </para>
</item>
</list>
</item>
</list>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1654</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JX7</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CHAPMAN, Austin</name>
<name role="display">Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN</name>
</talker>
<para>- The answers to the honorable member&#39;s questions are as follow : - </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>Yes. </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>Communication by the condensor system was established on the 8th of July last, and reported to be satisfactory. Since then some difficulty has arisen, and it has been reported that conversations are not now practicable. The matter is receiving attention. </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>1654</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>DEPORTATION OF KANAKAS</title>
<page.no>1654</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1654</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KDF</name.id>
<electorate>OXLEY, QUEENSLAND</electorate>
<party>PROT; FT from 1913; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">EDWARDS, Richard</name>
<name role="display">Mr R EDWARDS</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Prime Minister, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>Whether his attention has been directed to a judgment recently delivered in Canada by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Justice</inline> Anglin to the e&#39;ffect that no British Colony could exercise extra-territorial rights with regard to the expatriation of aliens without direct authority from the Imperial Parliament? </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>Will the Prime Minister take steps to&#39; ascertain if this is a correct inference to be drawn from <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Justice</inline> Anglin&#39;s judgment? </para>
</item>
<item label="3.">
<para>In case that it is so, would the Commonwealth legislation respecting the deportation of kanakas be indirectly influenced ? </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1654</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>009MD</name.id>
<electorate />
<party>Protectionist</party>
<role />
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">DEAKIN, Alfred</name>
<name role="display">Mr DEAKIN</name>
</talker>
<para>- The answers to the honorable member&#39;s questions are as follow : - </para>
</talk.start>
<list type="loweralpha-dotted">
<item label="r.">
<para>There are newspaper references to a judgment by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Justice</inline> Anglin, who is a Judge of a Provincial Court, but no report of the judgment has yet been received, and I therefore cannot say what its effect is. </para>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="2.">
<para>The authorized report will probably be received in due course. </para>
</item>
<item label="3.">
<para>In any case, the differences betwen the Constitution of the Dominion and that of the Commonwealth are so great that it does not follow that the Canadian decision would apply here- </para>
</item>
</list>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>BUDGET</title>
<page.no>1654</page.no>
<type>budget</type>
</debateinfo>
<para>
<inline font-style="italic">In Committee of Supply</inline>(Consideration resumed from 29th August, <inline font-style="italic">vide</inline> page 1625), on motion by <inline font-weight="bold">Sir John</inline> Forrest - </para>
<quote>
<para>That the item, &#34; President, ,&#163;1,100,&#34; be agreed to. </para>
</quote>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1654</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate>Darwin</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I am sorry that there should have been any misunderstanding with regard to my action in requesting an adjournment of the debate last night. I can assure honorable members that I did not speak to any one on the subject, except the honorable member for Dalley, to whom I intimated that I should like to speak to-day, if an opportunity presented itself. I did not consult the Prime Minister, or ask him to afford me any advantage over other honorable members. I take my chance just the same as any one else, and I hope I shall never ask for any privilege that I am not prepared to extend to others. I desire to congratulate the Treasurer on the manner in which he presented his first Budget. We have been accustomed to have the Budget presented by the right honorable member for Balaclava, who is regarded as a Treasurer quite out of the ordinary. Therefore, it is a great mistake to compare the Budget of any other Treasurer with those to which we have become accustomed. The right honorable member for Balaclava has been in the habit of presenting to us our financial affairs in wonderful detail, as well as in the aggregate, whilst the Treasurer has upon this occasion given us great aggregation. I like a man who sees hope in everything, and I detest those who look to the past, and worry themselves about what happened a thousand years ago. I am glad that the Treasurer has given a word of cheer to the whole financial world as to the position and prospects of Australia. The right honorable gentleman laid great stress upon the necessity for bringing more population into Australia. I would ask, however, whether it is desirable that we should have in this great country hopeless, starving, miserable millions, such as are to-day almost a curse to Europe and America. This is one of the great questions of the age. Before we bring&#39; more people from the older countries of the world to Australia, we should amend our land legislation. When there are fifteen or twenty people waiting to utilize one property, the&#39; property-holders exercise too much power. If, upon a small island, with a population of 10,000 or 15,000, the whole of the land were owned by two or three men, the land-holders would own the people just as completely as the slaveowners owned the niggers on the plantations before the great civil war of the United States. <inline font-style="italic">Coghlan,</inline> at page 1,017, says: - </para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>It will be seen that the unemployed comprise a considerable section of the community. No information is available regarding the number in Queensland, but in the other five States of the Commonwealth there were 50,644 persons - 42,88a males, and 7,762 females, who had been unemployed for a week or more at the date of the Census. These figures represent 3&#34;6 per cent, of the total number of workers, and are but little in excess of those for the same Colonies in 1891, when the total was 50,319, consisting of 43,497 males, and 6,822 females, the proportion of the total number of workers being 4*3 per cent. Although the number of the unemployed in X091, as stated above, was 50,644, it must not be considered that all these persons were without employment, as a fairly large proportion of them consisted of workers temporarily incapacitated through sickness or accident. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">Should not our politicians see that the 50,000 people out of employment are provided for before we bring any more people here. That is my objection to further immigration at present. If we introduced large numbers &#169;f people here to crowd our cities, we should bring about conditions similar to those which now prevail in New York, London, Glasgow, Chicago, Liverpool, and other large cities. In a speech which he delivered at San Francisco on 3rd April, Rider Haggard said : - </para>
<quote>
<para>We face yellow peril now. The crowding of slums of large cities breeds race suicide, and then Mongol hordes will sweep over us. The East has not the evils of the Occident. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">I would urge that before we become charitable to people abroad, we should look to the interests of our people at home. I could take the Treasurer into many parts of the city of Melbourne, and show him hundreds of men and women who are virtually on the brink of starvation, who do not know where to obtain their next meal or their bed for the coming night. The Premier of Victoria, who, in my opinion, is the best Premier Victoria has ever had, and who is showing that he is endowed with brains and with profundity as well as rotundity, is doing everything possible to relieve the unfortunate unemployed. If it is desired to increase the population of Australia the Government should take possession of the large landed estates. I do not mean that the land should be confiscated, but that such legislation should be passed as would convince large land-holders that the property they hold was intended for the sustenance of human beings rather than of sheep. We should endeavour to induce the various States to pass such laws as would compel land-holders to utilize their properties to the fullest possible extent, or part with their holdings. I do not believe in confiscation, but, at the same time, I do not approve of land-holders exercising power to which they are not entitled. A great deal has been said on the question of raising revenue. It appears to me that under the party system of responsible government, too much power is wielded by Ministers, as compared with other members of the Legislature. In all questions relating to the finances brought before the House we have the benefit of the product of the brains of seven men, instead of the product of the brains of the whole of the members of Parliament. Surely seven men cannot, unless they include in their ranks a modern Napoleon or an Alexander Hamilton, possess more brains than the other members of this Parliament. The curse of responsible government is that Ministers bring down such a policy as their environment suggests, and, apparently, no one else is in our case in a position to propope any other means of raising revenue than, the Customs and Excise duties. The Treasurer says that the people of Queensland have in their pockets the money which has been lost by the Queensland Treasurer owing to the operation of the Federal Tariff. I can assure the right honorable gentleman that the people of Tasmania wish that they had in their pockets the money lost to the revenue. Suppose that Queensland or Tasmania had a number of factories employing 40,000 or 50,000 persons, the money paid to the operatives would be placed in circulation and contribute to the prosperity of the community, whereas the money saved under the conditions referred to by the Treasurer lies useless in the pockets of a few. Now, referring to Defence matters, it appears to me that we are spending altogether too much money. Our expenditure amounts to 6s. or 7s. per head of the population of the Commonwealth, and I would ask what we are frightened of? We are lighting phantoms. If, as some people fear, Japan has designs upon Australia, should not we, a mere handful of 3,000,000, be absolutely helpless against them? Yet </para>
<para>Ave are spending hundreds of thousands of pounds annually upon forts, military accoutrements, and useless trappings, to guard ourselves against invasion by a power which is now friendly to the nation to which we belong. In fact, only lately, Great Britain withdrew her fleet from the Eastern seas. Since France became the friend of England, the latter Power has withdrawn her fleet from the Eastern seas, being content to absolutely trust her ally Japan. Yet, day after day we hear, not alone military men in their gilt braid and spurs and their peacock feathers, but also members of Parliament and business men. talking about Japan conquering this country. In so speaking, they are actually inciting Japan to attempt the conquest of Australia, japan is the all v of this country, the ally of England, of France, and of Amenca, &#39;and these nations are all trading with each other. They are selling their good.1* to each other. They are doing business of all descriptions with each other, and are not talking about attacking each other&#39;s country. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1656</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JUV</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCWILLIAMS, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Mcwilliams</name>
</talker>
<para>- We shut out the Japanese. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1656</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- Nations can do as they choose in their own country. No white man can own a piece of land in Japan. I know of various companies which sought to establish themselves in that country, but they could only erect buildings and own property through the medium of Japanese. A nation within its own terri tory is a sovereign entity, and that entity can pass laws to suit itself. Japan has enacted legislation to suit her own people, and under those laws no white man can own property there. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1656</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L1N</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">WILSON, John Gratton</name>
<name role="display">Mr Wilson</name>
</talker>
<para>- He can go there as a visitor. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1656</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- The Japanese can come here as visitors. My objection is that we are spending enormous sums of money upon military defence - upon guns which will be obsolete within ten years. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1656</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KEA</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KELLY, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Kelly</name>
</talker>
<para>- The honorable member gets his boots cleaned every morning, and yet they are dirty before nightfall. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1656</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- The honorable member can get his boots cleaned three or four times a day, but a worker like myself cannot do so. I maintain that if we set out looking for trouble we shall find it. If the biggest prize-fighter in Melbourne were to walk down Bourke-street to-morrow with a chip on his shoulder, he would find somebody ready to knock it&#39; off. I am surprised that in Australia, which possesses greater resources than does any other country in the world, persons should be continually talking about its conquest by some foreign nation. I object to such statements, and I protest against the proposed expenditure upon defence. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1656</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4S</name.id>
<electorate>PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">COOK, Joseph</name>
<name role="display">Mr JOSEPH COOK</name>
</talker>
<para>- Does the honorable member say that there is no need for us to make provision to defend ourselves ? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1656</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- There is not the slightest reason for so doing. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1656</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JUV</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCWILLIAMS, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Mcwilliams</name>
</talker>
<para>- I suppose that we are to: sponge upon England for all time? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1656</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- For thirty years in America I heard: the statement made that England intended to invade that- country. Every morning some newspaper would announce that the British fleet had been seen off Newfoundland, and that British troops might be landed upon American soil at any time. Naturally, the people were worked up to such a pitch that nearly every Yankee used to sleep upon his Winchester rifle. I object to the waste of money that is proposed upon the Defence Department. It is utter waste. Instead of spending that money in accoutrements and in nonsense that is really injurious to the Commonwealth, it should be spent upon the encouragement of closer settlement. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1656</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4S</name.id>
<electorate>PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">COOK, Joseph</name>
<name role="display">Mr JOSEPH COOK</name>
</talker>
<para>- I thought that the honorable member believed in insurance. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1656</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I believe in peace, in commerce, and in justice. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1657</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4S</name.id>
<electorate>PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">COOK, Joseph</name>
<name role="display">Mr JOSEPH COOK</name>
</talker>
<para>- And in insurance. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. KING</inline> O&#39;MALLEY.- That is included in the matters I have mentioned. If the sum which it is proposed to expend upon defence were handed over to the States Treasurers for the purpose of enabling them to place people upon the land, the railways of the Commonwealth would pay. I say that we should pension off our military men. Let them come and dance with the young ladies of the town, and enjoy themselves. But we should waste no more of the taxpayers&#39; money upon these military phantoms, which are conjured up for the specific purpose of creating a scare which does not exist. Great Britain has confidently withdrawn her fleet from the Eastern seas - according to American newspapers - and is willing to trust Japan and France, her allies. America has not yet withdrawn her fleet from Manila, but now that peace has been concluded between Russia and Japan she will doubtless do so. I claim that it is not necessary to waste money upon the maintenance of an army in Australia. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1657</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4S</name.id>
<electorate>PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">COOK, Joseph</name>
<name role="display">Mr JOSEPH COOK</name>
</talker>
<para>- Are the Americans going to blow up their ships? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1657</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- They are not going to blow anybody up, because there is no necessity for them to do so. I contend that we are mad upon the question of war in Australia. Ever since I landed here, some sixteen years ago, I have heard of nothing else. Some years ago I was in Tasmania when it was generally declared that a Russian fleet intended to effect a landing there. Now, the Russian fleet is at the bottom of the sea, and I would suggest to the Treasurer that we should limit the expenditure upon defence for a period of twenty years, and gradually retire our military officers. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1657</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4S</name.id>
<electorate>PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">COOK, Joseph</name>
<name role="display">Mr JOSEPH COOK</name>
</talker>
<para>- Is the honorable member voicing the views of the caucus ? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1657</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- No; I am speaking entirely for myself. Everybody is aware that my honoured chief is very strong upon defence matters. In fact, he has gone a bit mad upon that . question, just as most honorable members have gone crazy upon the subject of war. The Treasurer has stated that the scheme for arming our Military Forces and equipping them with the most modern rifles - and it should be remembered that the most modern rifles now will be antiquated in a couple of years - will cost&#163;520,000, or $2,600,000. I well remember when the old shot-gun was in use. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<para class="block">It had to give way to the Winchester rifle, which in its turn has &#39;been superseded by improved weapons. I would not object, if it were necessary, to a proposal for the foundation of a navy, or - if honorable members thought it better - to entering into a contract with the British Government, under which a greater number of Imperial ships would be stationed here to defend Australia, should ft ever become necessary to do so. If honorable members think it incumbent upon them to waste money upon some kind of military or naval business, let them do as I have suggested. But I shall enter my protest against this expenditure, even if I am the only member of the Labour Party to do so. I now come to the question of the sugar bounties. Whilst I intend to vote&#39; for the Government proposal in this connexion, I shall do so very reluctantly, because I am satisfied that the bounty will not cease at the end of five or six years. No honorable member ever knew a man to relinquish a good thing. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1657</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KED</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KENNEDY, Thomas</name>
<name role="display">Mr Kennedy</name>
</talker>
<para>- Would the honorable member do so? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1657</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- No, I never did. I have never known any man or woman to sacrifice a good thing. It is when they grow tired of bad things that they desire to get rid of them in order to obtain good things. The little State of Tasmania is called upon to contribute her proportion of the sugar bounty. There is no doubt that the Colonial Sugar Company will derive the most benefit from the Government policy in connexion with the sugar industry. The gentlemen who are interested in that company bloat about drawing-rooms,and enjoy themselves at the expense of the potato grower of Tasmania. With regard tothe sugar bounty, I know that some members of the Labour Party are in favour of it. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1657</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KQP</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCDONALD, Charles</name>
<name role="display">Mr McDonald</name>
</talker>
<para>- It is not a party question. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1657</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I feel exceedingly doubtful as to the policy of the bounty, and if I finally made up my mind to vote for it, I should do so withvery great misgiving. I now come to the question of the Braddon blot. What is it? It is a sort of constitutional machine for the destruction of the rights, powers, and privileges of Commonwealth representatives in Parliament. Why do the States desire to continue the operation of a section in our Constitution which carries itsown. condemnation upon its face? Why did we federate? Why was the union formed? When a man enters into partnership with another individual he does so from a desire to better his financial position. The&#39; States having entered into a partnership, I contend that the strong should bear the burdens of the weak. I desire to be perfectly candid. Prior to Federation the States were a segregation of wrangling political nonentities. That condition of affairs has now passed . away, and we have become a great continental nation - a nation of partners and of friends. We have removed all the artificial barriers which existed between the States. That being the case, the Braddon blot should be removed from our Constitution, and the Treasurer of the Commonwealth should not be compelled, when he requires a certain amount of revenue to assist the necessitous States, to raise four times the sum that is requisite to give effect to his desire. Under existing conditions, the Commonwealth Treasurer is absolutely hobbled, handcuffed, and shackled. What would honorable members think if the Treasurer! of the United States were compelled to consult forty-eight States and two territories, or forty-six States and four territories, before he could advance <inline font-style="italic">j&#163;i</inline> to assist Colorado, Nevada, or any other State of the American union? That is exactly the position in which the Braddon blot places this Parliament to-day. I claim that the whole of the Commonwealth revenue should be placed in one general fund, and that the necessitous States ought to receive advances from that fund, although not more than the amount to which they are legitimately entitled. There ought to be no such thing as an endeavour to make some States bankrupt. But that is the position in which the Braddon blot will place us. A broad-minded Treasurer like the right honorable member for Swan should have the courage to inaugurate a truly Australian policy, under which, instead of pouring millions into the coffers of a State that did not require the money, he would say, &#34; This revenue shall be distributed as the States need it for their development.&#34; The money should be distributed proportionately, and on reasonable lines. I am opposed to the Braddon blot, because it is based on injustice. The Commonwealth will never be able to establish a system of old-age pensions, or to consider any financial proposal calculated to be really beneficial to the people of Australia, while the Braddon blot remains in the Constitution. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1658</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JUV</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCWILLIAMS, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Mcwilliams</name>
</talker>
<para>- It is the salvation of the smaller States. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1658</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- We hear again the voice of the provincialist. I regret that such a remark should have been made by the honorable member for Franklin, because he generally shows the possession -of a broad mind. But, after all, the influence of environment is remarkable. I am thankful that I was born in a great continent - that I breathed the air of the white mountains of New Hampshire arid Vermont. When one lives under such conditions, he has broader ideas than have others. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1658</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L17</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">WILKS, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Wilks</name>
</talker>
<para>- Why did the honorable member leave that country? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1658</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- Because of the Scriptural injunction to- go into the world and preach the gospel unto the heathen. I am also opposed to any extension of the bookkeeping period, for I regard it as another fraud on the Commonwealth. It served a useful purpose at the outset, because it induced some of the antiquated, fossilized relics of the dark ages who then occupied positions of prominence, and were frightened of their own shadows, to support the union. Something had to be done to encourage the States to come in, and the bookkeeping clause was devised to that end. I remember a time, in the history of Canada, when <inline font-weight="bold">Sir John</inline> Macdonald would have been mobbed by the people if an opportunity had occurred; but the day came when Canada gloried in the movement in which that distinguished man took so prominent a part&#34;. Every man who proposes something that is out of the beaten path - something to which the crowd is unaccustomed - is regarded as a faddist or a fool, and it is not until after his death that the people realize, as a rule, that he had brains. I come now to the question of the transfer of the States debts. I must confess that I was amazed to learn that the right honorable member for Balaclava was in favour of the Commonwealth taking over the whole of the debts of the States. I cannot help recalling to mind what was done by the Dominion of Canada in this direction. Why should the European holders of the bonds, stocks, and Treasury bills df the States, who invested their money on the strength of the guarantee of the various States, be allowed to come in, and obtain the guarantee of the Commonwealth that will put millions into their pockets, while, at the same time, they do nothing to enable the Commonwealth to meet future obligations? Let us consider the question for one moment. According to the Treasurer, the States debts now amount to ,&#163;234,000,000, and of that amount no less a sum than &#163;32,000,000 has been borrowed since the establishment of the Federation. If ever there were &#34; Jubilee plungers,&#34; or bettors on the credit of the States, those who have been responsible for the public loans raised since the inauguration of the Federation may be justly described as such. And yet these men speak of the extravagance of the Commonwealth. As a matter of fact, the Commonwealth is only an infant in its swaddling clothes as compared with the States which have raised &#163;32,000,000 within the last four years. States debts amounting to something like &#163;23,000,000 will fall -due in the course of the next few years, and I absolutely agree with the suggestion made by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Speaker,</inline> when a- member of the Federal Convention. I believe the Legislatures of the various. States should pass enabling Acts giving the Commonwealth power to negotiate for the redemption of their loans as they fall due. That power should be given to the Commonwealth without delay, so that the experience of Victoria some eighteen months ago, when she had to pay an enormous bonus in connexion with a conversion loan, may not be repeated.&#39; If the underwriters concerned had been Hottentots, or cannibals, they could not have attacked the people of Victoria more savagely than they did on that occasion. It is better to eat up a man, than to eat up all that he has, and yet that is what the financiers did in the case of Victoria. The power to negotiate for the redemption of State debts, as they fall due, should be extended to the Commonwealth, and as soon as that power has been vested in the Commonwealth Government, negotiations should be entered into with a view to give effect to it. Is there one State in the union which could ascertain to-morrow the names of the holders of its stocks ? With the exception of South Australia, there is not. Most of the States Treasurers of days&#39; gone by feared that they had not the ability to negotiate the necessary Loans, and they accordingly farmed out the work to banking companies in England. The banks in turn farmed it out to underwriters, who sold these stocks to various investors. The underwriters know who are the holders of the various stocks of the States, but, as I have said, the Treasurers of the States, with the exception of the Treasurer of South Australia, do not. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1659</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JUV</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCWILLIAMS, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Mcwilliams</name>
</talker>
<para>- Is that a matter of much moment? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1659</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- It is a matter of great importance, as I shall be able to show. If the honorable member were doing business with men all over Australia, would he not find himself in an awkward position, if he left the whole of the financial side of his business to be attended .to by a bank? What would be his position if, as his bills fell due, he was told by the bank, &#34; We cannot tell you who are the holders of your bills &#34; ? If he could see the holders of his bills and tell them personally of the security he was able to afford them, he would do much better than he would if he had to depend upon the intervention of a third party. To the everlasting credit of the right honorable member for Adelaide, be it said that, as Premier of South Australia, he intrusted the Agent-General with the work of inscribing the stock of the State - a work Hitherto done by the banks. When the Agent-General of South Australia sends out the warrants for the payment of interest on State loans, he is able to say who are the holders of the bonds and stock. Many of the one-time Treasurers df other States, who handed over the floating of loans to various banking institutions, have gone to their graves covered with honour as State financiers ; but if such a system can be described as financing, then it is the easiest thing in the world to become a financier. Let me give another illustration of the difficult position in which the States have been placed1 by the adoption of the practice to which I have referred. The <inline font-style="italic">Age</inline> and <inline font-style="italic">Argus</inline> are powerful, wellconducted journals, but if their proprietors farmed out their daily distribution and the collection of advertisements, they would be unable to ascertain what was the reason for any falling off. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1659</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JUV</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCWILLIAMS, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Mcwilliams</name>
</talker>
<para>- They do farm out their distribution, to a great extent. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1659</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- That is so; but they closely supervise the work. I know of a case in which the publishing department of one of the newspapers called for an explanation from a lady agent, because it appeared that the opposition paper was securing an increased1 circulation in the district in which she carried on business. In order to give the holders of States bonds confidence in the Commonwealth we should first of all carry the motion, of which I gave notice some time ago, prodding for the imposition of a direct unimproved land tax. I have carefully considered the matter, and have ascertained that we could, by this means, raise from at least 200,000 to 500,000 per annum. Before we talk of taking over the debts of the States, the interest on which, according to the Treasurer, exceeds the whole of the revenue of the Commonwealth, we ought to prove to investors in Great Britain and Europe that we have the means to meet Australian bonds and stocks as they fall due, if they are not prepared to enable us to float conversion loans. That means is to be found in the imposition of a direct unimproved land tax. I would exempt the small land-holder. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1660</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L17</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">WILKS, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Wilks</name>
</talker>
<para>- Why should he not bear his share? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1660</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K99</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">JOHNSON, Elliot</name>
<name role="display">Mr Johnson</name>
</talker>
<para>- If an exemption were proposed the scheme would be destroyed. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1660</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I am a great believer in the system of small holdings. Have honorable members ever heard of a man who was willing to fight for his boardinghouse-keeper? Have honorable members ever heard of a man who would shoulder his rifle for the sake of defending his boardinghouse ? I do not think they have. But we all know that a. man will fight for his wife and children, and his own little home. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1660</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JUV</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCWILLIAMS, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Mcwilliams</name>
</talker>
<para>- I thought the honorable member wished to nationalize the land. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1660</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- So I do j, but the trouble is that I cannot induce honorable members to seriously consider the quesnon. Some honorable members accept an invitation to dinner at one of the big clubs, where they hear various statements made about the Labour Party, and thev come back with unfriendly feelings towards that party. As a matter of fact, the Labour Party is a thinking body - it does not think by proxy. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1660</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K4E</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CONROY, Alfred</name>
<name role="display">Mr Conroy</name>
</talker>
<para>- The honorable member is the only member of it who has been able to say a word wilh regard to the Budget statement. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1660</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- We propose to have a little to say on the Budget now. My suggestion is that the Commonwealth should impose a land tax and a heavy absentee tax on the incomes of the slanderers and defamers of their country&#39;s name, who live in Europe, and to whom the Treasurer referred in his Budget speech. Ta following motion, of which I gave notice during the sittings of the first Parliament, contains my proposition : - </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<quote>
<para>That in view of the facts - </para>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>That during many years the Governments of the several Australian States have been prodigal floaters of loans on the English money market, with the result that at present the six States are loaded with the dead weight of a foreign debt to the enormous amount of over <inline font-style="italic">&#163;215,</inline> 000,000 - a sum which requires over ,&#163;7,800,000 to meet the interest bill. </para>
</item>
</list>
</quote>
<para class="block">Our debt is now ,&#163;234,000,000, and the interest on it over ,&#163;8,000.000 a year. </para>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="2.">
<para>That no provision exists among the States (with the exception of South and Western Australia) for a practical sinking fund for the redemption of this huge debt. </para>
</item>
<item label="3.">
<para>That it is absolutely necessary to establish a fund similar to that in existence in WesternAustralia in order to rehabilitate the credit of the States - most of the profits produced by this borrowed money having gravitated into the pockets of the large landed proprietors in the form of unearned increment, in consequence of the expenditure on public works. 4- That it is advisable, in the interests of the States and Commonwealth, that large estates should be cut up into small holdings for <inline font-style="italic">b&#39;ond fide</inline> settlers on perpetual leases, thus preventing the emigration of our healthy, able-bodied young men to foreign countries, in consequence of their being unable to secure homes in the land of their birth. </para>
</item>
</list>
<para>This House is opinion that the Government should introduce a Bill for the purpose of imposing a graduated land and absentee tax, on the following unimproved capital value basis (no taxation being imposed on improvements, however costly) : - 1. <inline font-style="italic">(a)</inline> Land of the unimproved capital value of &#163;2,000, or less, to be exempt from taxation. </para>
<list type="upperalpha">
<item label="(A)">
<para>Land over the unimproved value of <inline font-style="italic">&#163;2,000,</inline> and under &#163;20,000, to pay &#163;d. per <inline font-style="italic">&#163;1.</inline></para>
<list type="loweralpha">
<item label="(c)">
<para>Land of the unimproved value of &#163;20,000, and under &#163;40,000, to pay jd. per <inline font-style="italic">&#163;1. (d,)</inline> Land of the unimproved value of ,&#163;40,000, and under ,&#163;75,000, to pay id. per <inline font-style="italic">&#163;1.</inline></para>
</item>
<item label="(e)">
<para>Land of the unimproved value of &#163;75,000, and under ,&#163;100,000, to pay i&#163;d. per &#163;r. (/) Land of the unimproved value of ,&#163;100,000, and under ,&#163;150,000, to pay 1&#189;d. per <inline font-style="italic">&#163;1.</inline></para>
</item>
<item label="(g)">
<para>Land of the unimproved value of &#163;150,000, and under ,&#163;200,000, to pay 2d. per &#163;i. (//) Land of the unimproved value of ,&#163;200,000, and under ,&#163;250,000, to pay 3d. per <inline font-style="italic">&#163;1.</inline></para>
<list type="decimal">
<item label="(1)">
<para>Land of the unimproved value of ,&#163;250,000, and under ,&#163;300,000, to pay 4d. per &#163;1. </para>
</item>
<item label="(7)">
<para>Land of the unimproved value of &#163;300,000, and tinder ,&#163;350,000, to pay 5d. per ,&#163;1. {&#38;) Land of the unimproved value of &#163;350,000, and under &#163;400,000, to pay 5-^d. per <inline font-style="italic">&#163;1.</inline></para>
</item>
</list>
</item>
</list>
</item>
<item label="(I)">
<para>Land of the unimproved value of &#163;400,000, and above, to pay 6d. per <inline font-style="italic">&#163;t.</inline></para>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="2.">
<para>Absentee landed proprietors to pay double the amount of the foregoing rates. </para>
</item>
<item label="3.">
<para>A portion of the proceeds to be utilized for the purpose of establishing a system of national old-age pensions, and the balance to be placed in a reserve fund to partially redeem the several State loans as they fall due. </para>
</item>
<item label="4.">
<para>That this motion, when carried, be an instruction to the Attorney-General to prepare the necessary measure- When this becomes law it will shift the incidence of cruel taxation from the backs of the small holders to that of the Monopolistic Boodle Bludgers who have turned the people&#39;s heritage into a sheep-walk. </para>
</item>
</list>
</item>
</list>
<para>We can raise from &#163;1, 200,000 to &#163;1,500,000 annually, and I suggest that the Commonwealth should secure a piece of property in the heart of London, and on it erect a building which will cost in all between &#163;200,000 and &#163;300,000. At the present time, the Governments of the various States have offices for their Agents-General all over London - some of them near the Parliament Buildings at Westminster, away from the business centre of the city, where no one ever goes. The office of AgentGeneral should, in my opinion, be abolished, and general agents should be appointed in their stead. An Agent- General should be a thing of the past, because everything now is hard, progressive, cruel, murderous business. The Commonwealth could dig down deep, and have great basements, and subbasements, on its property, where the winegrowers of Australia could store their wine. Then in the building they could provide offices for the &#34; general agents of the six States, and on the top storey they could have a show room for the exhibition of the produce of the States, with the States&#39; tag on everything, the remaining space to be let. Unless a nation advertises today, just as individuals do, it must go to sleep, and become covered with blue mould ; and the best way in which we can effectively advertise is by making patent the substantial potentialities of Australia, by the means I suggest. In the Commonwealth building would be lifts or elevators to climb up or down, and there could be a restaurant in which nothing but Australian wine, and food prepared from Australian commodities, would be sold. If this seems too socialistic a proposal, the Government could lease the right to conduct such a restaurant, and persons would soon be found to tender for it. By renting the various rooms in the building, we should get an enormous income. If we borrowed &#163;300,000 at 3 per cent., on interminable stocks or bonds - and stocks are better than bonds, because the latter have coupons attached which are a nuisance - we should have to pay &#163;9,000 a year in interest, and a good landed investment in London is supposed to pay at least 7 per cent. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1661</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K4E</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CONROY, Alfred</name>
<name role="display">Mr Conroy</name>
</talker>
<para>- The man who could point out safe investments of that kind would make thousands. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1661</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- Seven per cent, can be obtained from investments in property in the heart of cities like London, New York, Chicago, and even Melbourne. Seven per cent, would give us a return of ,&#163;21,000, while 6 per cent, would give a return of &#163;18,000 a year. Out of that the municipal rates would have to be paid ; but it would be unnecessary to insure the building, because the Commonwealth is stronger than any insurance company. I wrote to the Under-Treasurers of the States, to ascertain what each State pays for rent in London, but the only reply I have yet received came from the Under-Treasurer in Tasmania, who said that that State pays &#163;275. Of course, Tasmania is a small State, and if we estimate the average amount paid by the States <inline font-style="italic">at &#163;5&#176;&#176; 01 &#163;6o&#176;</inline> each, or &#163;3,000 in the aggregate, I do not think we shall be far wrong,. That at once meets half the interest charge. I would insist on the High Commissioner having absolute power in connexion with the inscribing of the stock issued, and would allow him to float his loan at any period when he was likely to get money cheaply. Having the stock on his books, the Commissioner would know by whom it was held, just as an insurance company knows who are ifs policy-holders, and could make it his business on occasions to see the larger holders, or to write to the smaller holders, offering them inducements to continue to hold the. stock in the event of our Joans falling due. At the present time, because of the stories in circulation about a certain institution, many persons are frightened; but their fear&#39;svanish when one sees them, and tells them that things are all right. Unfortunately, the great multitude is carried away by clamour and rumour, and is ready to sell its stocks, or dispose of its investments, to save itself from what it thinks threatened disaster, but the rich man who keeps his fingers on the financial pulse of the world knows what is happening, and&#39; buys the stock, doubling the value of his investment in a few months. The Commonwealth should not delay to erect, in the heart of the city of London, a building which would be a monument to the business ability of the people of the country, and would enable their produce to be properly exhibited to the people of Europe. About every year or two there are celebrations of one kind or another in London, and the Commonwealth building&#39; would, on such occasions, be crowded with sightseers, who would gain a knowledge of what we have to offer to emigrants, and would spread the fame of our resources. I find from official records that the land of Australia is valued at &#163;373,679,000, and the improvements on it at <inline font-style="italic">&#163;375,515,000.</inline> The incomes drawn from investments by persons non-resident in Australia amount to &#163;8,350,000, and &#163;400,000 is spent annually by Australians residents in Europe. Of the first-mentioned amount, . &#163;2,565,000, or nearly 4 per cent of the total incomes in the State, apart from the interest paid upon State debentures, is drawn from New South Wales ; &#163;1,600,000, or 3 per cent. is drawn from Victoria; &#163;1,100,000, or 5&#189; per cent., from Queensland; &#163;375,000, or 2&#189; per cent, from South Australia; &#163;2,300.000, or 13 per cent., from Western Australia ; &#163;360,000, or4&#189; per cent., from Tasmania. The incomes drawn in the Commonwealth represent a total of &#163;179,000,000, andthe incomes in New Zealand represent a total of&#163;38,967,000. &#163;8,750,000, or slightly over 5 per cent. of the total of the incomes derived from private concerns in the Commonwealth, is drawn by non-residents. These people, who enjoy all the. social advantages ofliving in the centres of art andculture, should, I think be made to specially pay the Commonwealth for policing their properties It is not fair to the residents of Australia, who rear their families in the country in which they make their income, that no distinction should be made in matters of taxation between them and persons who live in Europe. It is hard for an Australian Treasurer, owing to his environment, to present a policy which will have the effect of treading on the toes of absentees, but, I think, it is time that some action was taken in this direction. The Treasurer did not say one word with regard to the establishment of a Commonwealth Bank of issue and deposit. This is a very important matter. We are, to-day, living under a banking system that <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Robert</inline> Peel gave to the world in 1844 or 1845. No improvements have been made during all the years that have elapsed, and it seems most remarkable that, whilst changes are being made in all other kinds of economic institutions, whilst wonderful improvements are being effected in the methods of the pro duction and distribution of wealth, and whilst the remotest nations of the earth are being brought into closer connexion by the magic touch of commerce, and whilst the whole industrial and commercial world is passing through a process of evolutionary transformation, no change should be made in the antiquated and obsolete system of currency, which has been in existence for the last sixty or seventy years. The currency being the very lifeblood that circulates through the veins of the nation, I was glad to hear the honorable member for Brisbane address the House on the subject of establishing Commonwealth currency, although I could not altogether appreciate some of the features of the system which the honorable member advocated. Under his proposal, the State would receive from the banks only one-third of the value of the notes issued to them in gold, and the banks would have to pay only 2 per cent. interest on the other two-thirds of the total face value of the notes. I understood, further, that the banks would be in a position to get back their gold upon returning the paper currency. I should think that a better return to the State would be secured if the banks were required to pay 2 per cent. interest on the full value of the note issue. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1662</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K87</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CULPIN, Millice</name>
<name role="display">Mr Culpin</name>
</talker>
<para>- But the State would hold the banks&#39; gold to the extent of one-third of the value of the notes issued. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1662</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- Yes, but unfortunately the banks could get the gold back upon returning the notes, and I do not like giving anything back once I have got it. I do not think that any great profit is to be derived from the issue of paper money, but that system has great advantages, in so far as it engenders confidence in the State. Moreover, if a State bank of issue were established the power now enjoyed by a monopoly consisting of a few private bankers would be vested in the State. At present bankers frequentlyencourage booms by urging people to borrow money when it is plentiful, and they bring about the collapseof such booms by calling upon their debtors to pay them at a subsequent stage when money becomes scarce. If the State had the control of the issue of paper money it would refuse to increase its note circulation in order to assist a boom. If there were a prospect of a boom the State bank would commence to cancel its circulation, and this would have a discouraging effect upon those who were disposed to over-speculate. On the other hand, in times of great trouble, the State bank could increase its circulation, through the agency of the post-offices. It may be urged that no one would have confidence in a Government bank, but <inline font-style="italic">Coghlan</inline> points out that the States savings banks had a wonderful boom at the time of the bank crisis in 1893, because the people had confidence in them. If we had a Commonwealth bank of issue it would be able to do business with farmers and producers, who, however, would not be granted overdrafts unless they deposited securities in the forms of deeds, bills of lading, bills of exchange, bonds, or bills of sale. The result would ba that the State bank would encourage the small producer and the small business man. Unfortunately, the present banks of issue unconsciously help big men, who can come to them and borrow thousands upon &#34;depositing their deeds. The enormous profits made by the Australian banks is at the expense of the whole people who have to pay the interest, discounts, and exchange. Both the borrowers and bank employes are sweated to fatten the shareholders, as shown by the following table from the <inline font-style="italic">Australasian Banking and Insurance Record</inline> of 20th January, 1905, from which I will read some figures: - </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<para class="block">
<graphic href="026331190508302_11_0.jpg" />
</para>
<para class="block">After all it is only that portion of the bank deposits represented by the savings of the workers, or the surplus accumulations of commercial and financial organizations, which is available for investment. The balance, which constitutes by far the larger part of the deposits, represents only an expansion of credit, and is never available for investment of any permanent character. It is a common blunder to regard bankdeposits as money in the banks, whereas they are principally composed of credits in a ledger. When a banker lends a customer &#163;&#39;10,000, he takes the customer&#39;s promissory note, and credits his account -with the proceeds. The transaction in creases both tha deposits and loans bv &#163;10,000, but does not adel anything to the money in the bank. Even when the customer operates by cheque on the credit it does not necessarily follow that the money in the bank is reduced, tor his cheques either go to the credit of other customers of the hank, or they find their way into other banks, and become an offset by similar transactions. This credit of &#163;10,000 produced) by the banker discounting the promissory note of his customer, performs all the functions that actual money can perform, and practically adds &#163;10,000 to the resources of the commercial community while it is extant. If the credit has been judiciously given, the note will be redeemed when due by the customer accumulating a sufficient credit balance in his bank account to redeem the note. The transaction will reduce the banks assets and deposits by &#163;10,000, but it will not increase nor diminish the money in the bank. In only a small proportion of the financial transactions thus accomplished by credit will actual cash be demanded, and against this the banker must retain a certain percentage of his deposits in cash reserves. If the credit be foolishly given to a worthless speculator who cannot pay when the money is due, or make satisfactory arrangements, then the bank loses the amount, because its resources are reduced by &#163;10,000, while its liabilities remain the same. In the difference between redeemable and irredeemable credit rests all the difference between good currency and bad currency, between good banking and bad banking, between good investment securities and bad investment securities. Thus . the increase of bank deposits is clue more to an expansion of credit than to an increase, of actual money in the banks, or of funds in search of investment. In like manner, when deposits decrease it is a contraction of credit, rather than the withdrawal of money from the banks. In 1893 there was far more money in the banks of Australia than in 1892. Yet the deposits were millions less on account of the contraction of credit primarily due to the crisis, the loans, and Other credit assets being relatively reduced. This borrowing, banking, and rate of exchange question need not frighten us. Many years ago the Baring Brothers loaned to the South American Republic because the rate of interest was much higher than in. America or Australia. When the rate of interest is higher in Australia than elsewhere, the financiers and capitalists will lend the people here money instead of buying foreign commercial bills, causing Jess, demand for bills, and therefore lowering the rates. If rates of interest are higher in other countries, there will be a greater demand for commercial bills or other exchanges on foreign countries with the object of getting the benefit of such high rates. If the interest rates for money are lower in other countries than here, Australian financiers Would borrow money in their markets, and loan it here, thus increasing Australian indebtedness to foreign countries, and on the falling due of these loans there would be an increased demand for exchange to pay them, resulting in higher rates. The fluctuation in the rate of exchange is due to many causes. If the value of the commodities exported&#39; by Australia greatly exceed the value of the commodities imported during a certain period, the large balance due to us from other countries would, if there were no other international transactions to offset them, cause the lowering of the price of exchange here for the reason that there would be less demand for remittances to foreign countries, since it is always the difference between the debits and credits that is remitted. On the other hand, if we owed foreign countries more than they owed us, exchange would be higher by reason of the increased demand for it. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1664</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L1D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">WILLIS, Henry</name>
<name role="display">Mr Henry Willis</name>
</talker>
<para>- Is the honorable member in favour of tha conversion of the States debts? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1664</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I am in favour of the Commonwealth taking them over gradually. I claim that we should acquire power from the different States to go upon the money market, and to buy up these loans long before they become due. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1664</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FYSH, Philip</name>
<name role="display">Sir Philip Fysh</name>
</talker>
<para>- How can we do that ? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1664</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- We can do it when the stocks are being sold. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1664</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FYSH, Philip</name>
<name role="display">Sir Philip Fysh</name>
</talker>
<para>- Where shall we get the money? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1664</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- We can get it by imposing a land tax. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1664</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FYSH, Philip</name>
<name role="display">Sir Philip Fysh</name>
</talker>
<para>- Can we obtain &#163;200.000,000 in that way ? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1664</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- No. There is not &#163;200,000,000 falling due at the same time. As a matter of fact, we have /.&#39;23, 000, 000 worth of loans maturing within the next five years. I believe that the Commonwealth should be given the power to at once commence negotiations in respect of those loans. I claim that if we imposed a land tax, and if we had &#163;5,000,000 in the Commonwealth Treasury we should experience no difficulty in regard to renewing our loans. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1664</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FYSH, Philip</name>
<name role="display">Sir Philip Fysh</name>
</talker>
<para>- Does the honorable member favour the abolition of the State land taxes? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1664</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I would like to see a uniform land tax imposed all over Australia. A tax of a penny in the pound would realize &#163;1,500,000 a year. The bonds of the Commonwealth, backed by the States, are surely worth more than State bonds would be, unbacked by the Commonwealth. Ninety per cent, of the business of the world of to-day is openly done by credit, and the other 10 per cent, is transacted by other forms which are equivalent to credit. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1665</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K4E</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CONROY, Alfred</name>
<name role="display">Mr Conroy</name>
</talker>
<para>- How does the honorable member define &#34; credit &#34;? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1665</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I define it as confidence. Credit and confidence go hand in hand, and if we had a million pounds extra coming in annually, the people in England would have confidence in us. The lands of the Commonwealth are valued at ?373,000,000. That value has been imparted to them by the working people of this country. Let us impose a tax upon these lands, and show the English bondholders that we are able to pay off a portion of our indebtedness ; then we shall experience no difficulty whatever in gaining renewals to suit our own convenience. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1665</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K4E</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CONROY, Alfred</name>
<name role="display">Mr Conroy</name>
</talker>
<para>- If we passed a law raising the price of land tenfold, can the honorable member, as a sound protectionist, say how would it act, seeing that the money would still be kept in the country? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1665</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I say that protection and a land tax go hand in hand. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1665</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K4E</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CONROY, Alfred</name>
<name role="display">Mr Conroy</name>
</talker>
<para>- That is to say, that all taxes are good. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1665</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- Every honorable member who has had any business experience must know that whenever he has had a mortgage upon his property, if he has offered to pay off a portion of it, he has experienced no trouble in procuring an extension. Our English bond-holders occupy a position precisely similar to that of mortgagees. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1665</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KXK</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">WEBSTER, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Webster</name>
</talker>
<para>- The honorable member should not make a mistake. If our bondholders have a good investment, naturally thev will stick to it. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1665</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- Has the honorable member noticed that the bonds of one State in the Commonwealth, which mature in about four or five years, are now quoted at ?88 per ?100? I say that the Commonwealth could purchase those bonds and establish a sinking fund. If 1 per cent, were paid into a sinking fund, the Treasurer, through the High Commissioner, would be in a position - as that fund increased - to watch the state of the- money market, and to take advantage of it in the same way that any other purchaser does. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1665</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K4E</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CONROY, Alfred</name>
<name role="display">Mr Conroy</name>
</talker>
<para>- Is the Treasurer to engage in gambling? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1665</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- That would not be gambling. The States go into the open market and offer their stock for sale. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1665</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K4E</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CONROY, Alfred</name>
<name role="display">Mr Conroy</name>
</talker>
<para>- The Treasurer is to collect the funds of our citizens and wait for an opportunity to purchase State bonds. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1665</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- The Treasurer would receive a certain amount from land taxation each year. He would be paying off the States debts, and thus relieving them of a terrible burden. Everybody recognises that if the Braddon blot were removed from our Constitution, and the Commonwealth had ?2,000,000 or ?3,000,000 of a surplus above what is required to help the States, the Commonwealth Treasurer would be in a very different position from thatwhich he would occupy if he had to face a deficit each year. Credit is the most potent economic force of the age, and credit rests upon confidence. The whole financial fabric of the world to-day virtually rests upon credit. How much gold is there in circulation in England or Australia? We have not ?10,000,000 worth of notes, gold, and silver in circulation in the Commonwealth, and yet we are doing a business equal to ,?94,000,000 annually. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1665</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KHC</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">HIGGINS, Henry</name>
<name role="display">Mr Higgins</name>
</talker>
<para>- We have ,?22,000,000 of gold on deposit. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1665</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I am speaking of the amount in circulation. How much gold is there in circulation in England? <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. J.</inline> Wilson Harper, speaking of this aspect of the matter, says : - </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<quote>
<para>Gold plays an important but subordinate part- The extensive use of credit bills, promissory notes, and bank notes, has far more to do with the maintenance of our monetary system. If it had to completely rest on gold it would soon crumble to dust. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">According to <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Clare,</inline> the whole stock of legal tender does not exceed ?126,000,000. His remark has reference to the United Kingdom. He adds - </para>
<quote>
<para>From half to two-thirds of this amount is in actual circulation among the public, ?50,000,000 or ?60,000,000 being available for banking purposes. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. McLeod</inline>says </para>
<para>There are about ?110,000,000 in actual coin in the country, and credit to the amount of ?10,890,000,000 rests upon that. </para>
<para class="block">Dean Farrar estimates the entire capital at ?12,000,000,000, and says that ?235,000,000 aire yearly invested and saved. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Laver</inline> states that the chief London banks, exclusive of the Bank of England! hold cash in hand to the extent of &#163;27,000,000, and that a debt of &#163;227,000,000 rests upon that sum. The estimate made by the Committee &#39; of experts who recently issued their report on Indian currency is much less than those just cited ; but coming from such financial authorities, it may be accepted 00 the whole as most accurate. It is stated that - </para>
<quote>
<para>In the United Kingdom the amount of gold and silver available for purposes of currency is uncertain, but the Mint estimate of the gold in circulation is ^91,000,000, of which the amount in banks, including that in the issue department of the Bank of England, and in other banks against which notes are issued, is stated to be ^25,000,000. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">The report further explains that the gold held by the issue department of the Bank of England, and that held by - </para>
<quote>
<para>The Scotch and Irish banks, in respect of notes issued beyond the authorized limits, cannot be looked upon as an integral portion of the currency, since it cannot be used at the same time with the notes that are issued against it. But the amount is included in the sum of ^91,000,000. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">If that enormous volume of business . is done on a credit basis, of what are we afraid in Australia? Turning to <inline font-style="italic">Cog/dan,</inline> page 801, we find th% statement - </para>
<quote>
<para>The savings banks are on a very different footing, being, to a greater or less extent, under State control, and otherwise safeguarded, so that they enjoy public confidence. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">If the savings banks enjoy public confidence, because they are guaranteed bv the Government, would not the people Wave confidence in a Commonwealth bank of deposit and issue? </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1666</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K4E</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CONROY, Alfred</name>
<name role="display">Mr Conroy</name>
</talker>
<para>- It would depend on the way in which it was conducted. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1666</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- Let me illustrate my point. When a city suddenly springs up for which an adequate water supply has not been provided, what is the first step taken <inline font-style="italic">by</inline> those in authority ? They fix upon a catchment area. Then they build a great dam- or reservoir into which the water is directed Mains are next laid from the reservoir to the city, storage basins being excavated along the line, and by means of service pipes the water is conveyed to every household, and the whole city is supplied. I hold that there is not a sovereign or a half-crown piece that was&#39; not dug out of the earth by some working man or working woman. There was no property in the Garden of Eden - there was not a dollar to lie found there ; and every pound that is necessary to pay off the national debt must be earned by the working men of Australia. If that be so, why should not the savings of the workers flow through the various post-office savings banks into a Commonwealth Government national bank, and be utilized for the benefit of the workers of Australia ? To-day the wealth of the world is flowing from the pockets of- the workers into those of great organizations of private gentlemen who boss the wealth of the earth. These gentlemen have made their wealth out of the labours of the workers of the world, and the Labour Party is determined to introduce a new system under which not a dollar will be taken from those gentlemen; but under which they will be unable to take a dollar that they do not earn. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1666</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KEA</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KELLY, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Kelly</name>
</talker>
<para>- Will members of Parliament secure a proper allowance under that system? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1666</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I am glad that the honorable member has reminded me of that point. To the everlasting discredit of the Government and their predecessors, be it said, that the function for which they came into office - the function of feeding the people - has never been fulfilled. Honorable members are to-day receiving a starvation allowance - an allowance that is absolutely disgraceful. If we do not believe in the principle of payment of members, let us wipe it out ; but if we are to have payment of members, the allowance should be commensurate with the duties to be discharged. If honorable members received an allowance of &#163;600 or &#163;700 a year, it would be unnecessary for them to engage in private business. .1 hold that no man can conscientiously attend to his Parliamentary duties and at the same time control a private business. A member of Parliament must either resign his seat or let his business go. The Government should pay no regard to press criticism. Thank God, the newspapers do not run this Parliament; and if the Ministers are afraid to. tackle this question seriously - if, like other Governments, they are simply waiting for something to turn up - they will in time be turned down. I fought the last general election on the public statement that I favoured an allowance of &#163;1,000 a year, and I hold that there is no justification for giving members of the Parliament only &#163;400 per annum simply because the Com.stitution sets forth that such shall be tlie allowance &#34;until the Parliament otherwise provides.&#34; The right honorable member for East Sydney has often admitted that he made a great mistake when, as a member of the Federal Convention, he moved to amend the clause in the draft Constitution Bill providing that the allowance should be &#163;500 per annum. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1667</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KY8</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">PHILLIPS, Pharez</name>
<name role="display">Mr Phillips</name>
</talker>
<para>- Then why does not the right honorable -member seek to rectify his mistake ? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1667</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- How could he possibly rectify it when his Government had only a majority of one? The Government have a substantial majority, and most honorable members of the Opposition would support a proposal by them to increase the present allowance. I am prepared to vote for an allowance of anything up to &#163;600 a year. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1667</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KEA</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KELLY, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Kelly</name>
</talker>
<para>- Would the honorable member vote for nothing over that, amount ? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1667</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K5D</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O&#39;MALLEY, King</name>
<name role="display">Mr KING O&#39;MALLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I do not think it would be fair to ask for more. I appeal to the Government not to be scared by newspaper criticism, but to have the pluck to bring in a Bill providing for an increased allowance. In conclusion, . I have only to say that I thank the Treasurer for having administered a much deserved castigation to those treacherous men who were beggars when Australia found them, and who, having become millionaires, visit Europe from time to time, and denounce the land that made them. But let them go. Australia, with its mountains and its valleys, its hills and its dales, its rivers and its plains, its harbors, its villages and its cities, its lovely women, and its champion racehorses, still remains. Let these men go. Australia - with its music, sad and thrilling - with its cosy homes, its winters of mildness, and its summers of healthfulness; - where bloom and flourish the finest specimens and virtues of the British race, still remains. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1667</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate>Corinella</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I do not know whether, after the poetical outburst of the honorable member who has just resumed his seat, the Committee will be willing to come down to the prosaic walks of life with which a Budget speech and a Budget debate are usually associated. But there are a few remarks which&#39; I should like to make, first, in connexion with the finances, and, secondly, in connexion with that portion of the expenditure of the Commonwealth which relates to our defences. So far as one can judge from the inquiries that could be made during the period which has elapsed since the delivery &#34;of the Budget speech, a pronounced feeling of apprehension has been caused by the Treasurer&#39;s remarks. The public mind is alarmed, and not without reason, at the general tone of the speech. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1667</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- Where is the public mind situated? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1667</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- It is not situated solely in the right honorable gentleman. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1667</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- Does the honorable and learned member mean everywhere - all over Australia? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1667</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I mean everywhere, all over Australia ; with the exception, perhaps, of those realms in which the right honorable gentleman holds, or held, exclusive sway. I think that the public have reason for alarm in the attitude adopted by the right honorable gentleman, who is supposed to be the custodian of the finances of the Commonwealth, and to watch over its expenditure, so that no extravagance and no unnecessary outgoing of the public funds shall take place. But the right honorable gentleman told us, in effect, that in future the States must expect to get back not more than the statutory three-fourths of the net Commonwealth revenue to which they are entitled under the Constitution. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1667</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- My predecessor told them that at Hobart, in even plainer language than I used. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1667</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- The right honorable member for Balaclava stated that the expenditure of the Commonwealth would inevitably grow until that result happened; but he did not announce the fact in tones of triumphant exultation. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1667</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- I did not say anymore than he did. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1667</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- The right honorable gentleman said, in the tones of one who rejoiced in the fact, that the Commonwealth expenditure would be increased. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1667</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- Although the honorable and learned member sits in opposition to the Government, he need not be unfair. &#39; </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1667</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- No ; and I have not been so. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1667</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- I think that the honorable and learned member is unfair. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1667</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- The right honorable gentleman wishes to be both a member of the Government and a member of the Opposition, to direct the operations of both parties. If he succeeds in doing that, everything will go to his satisfaction. His attitude in regard to finance is well known. We have heard him say in this Chamber, when speaking of expenditure, &#34; Pooh, what is a million? &#34; </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- My reputation for economy and good management will stand against that of the honorable and learned member, if he has any. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I have always been compelled to practice economy. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- I mean as an administrator. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- The spectacle of the right honorable gentleman claiming credit as an economical administrator is one to make both gods and men laugh. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- If the honorable and learned member goes to the State whose affairs I administered for so long he will ascertain what the people there think of me. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I remember hearing the right honorable gentleman say in this Chamber, when a question arose as to the anticipation of parliamentary appropriation, &#34; When I wanted a few hundred thousand pounds, I took the money, and spent it.&#34; Economy ! There must be a special definition of the word in the political dictionary of Western Australia. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4S</name.id>
<electorate>PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">COOK, Joseph</name>
<name role="display">Mr JOSEPH COOK</name>
</talker>
<para>- There is no quicker way to become popular than to spend money. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- The honorable and learned member for Corinella has recently been to Western Australia, and should, therefore, know what I did there; and should be a good judge of my, actions. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I do not know if the right honorable gentleman proposes to allow me to say the few words I wish to say with a comparatively small number of interruptions. Notwithstanding his long parliamentary experience, no one is so impatient under the mildest criticism and the gentlest of suggestions as he is. He has not a reputation for economy. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- The honorable and learned member should give us facts, and not fiction. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I am trying to do so. The right honorable gentleman has not a reputation for being economical. He tells us that that reputation is entirely undeserved; that of all mortals he is distinguished for his economical aspirations, efforts, and results. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KEA</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KELLY, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Kelly</name>
</talker>
<para>- Is that why there were no defences in Western Australia? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- That may be the reason why the Commonwealth is now paying so large a sum for the construction of new works and buildings in Western Australia. The right honorable gentleman is so economical that he left it to the Commonwealth to undertake this expenditure. No State in the Union is, rightly or wrongly, benefiting so much by the practice of charging new works and buildings to the Commonwealth on the population basis, as is the State of Western Australia. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- I deny that ; I take exception to that statement. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- Apparently nothing I can say will satisfy the right honorable gentleman. When I said that he was not economical he complained ; and now that I am saying he was economical, and am pointing out these results of his economy, he is still complaining. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- The honorable and learned member says that Western Australia is gaining more advantage than any other State. Western Australia has to pay as well as to receive. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- No doubt the right honorable gentleman refers to the special Tariff of that State. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- No. Western Australia pays a good deal towards the sugar bounties. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- The State pays in accordance with its population; but it gets a bigger proportion of the general expenditure of the Commonwealth on works and buildings than does any other State. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- I question that. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- The cost of the defences of Fremantle alone more than eat up Western Australia&#39;s contribution to the &#163;400,000 which is to be spent on new works and buildings. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- How much has already been spent at Fremantle? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- Up to the present time a few thousand pounds. The right honorable gentleman, in the Estimates of which he has charge, has a little item of &#163;45,000 or so. to be expended there. He tells us now that he does not think the Braddon provision should be extended when its operation has expired. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- When did I say that? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1668</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- Apparently the right honorable gentleman forgets what he said in the Budget speech. It is not that he had so much to say in that speech that he need have forgotten what it contains, because one of the complaints I have to make is that he told us very little indeed about the position of the finances. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1669</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- I have before me a report of my speech. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1669</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I have not committed the speech to memory, so that I cannot quote the exact words ; but does the Treasurer deny that he indicated that he did not think the Braddon provision should be extended ? </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1669</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>10000</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CHAIRMAN, The</name>
<name role="display">The CHAIRMAN</name>
</talker>
<para>- The Treasurer will have an opportunity to reply later on to any statement made by the honorable and learned member, and that, I think, will be a better course for him to pursue than to reply now. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1669</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- Yes ; but when an ex-Minister criticises the Government&#39; he might be accurate in his statements. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1669</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4S</name.id>
<electorate>PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">COOK, Joseph</name>
<name role="display">Mr JOSEPH COOK</name>
</talker>
<para>- The trouble is that he is too accurate. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1669</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- Nothing I have said yet can be impugned on the ground of inaccuracy. I have endeavoured to do the right honorable gentleman the utmost justice. When be disputed the correctness of certain statements in regard to his conduct, I attributed to him an opposite line of conduct; but he still remained indignant, though one or other of my statements must have been correct. I am afraid it will be impossible for me to please him. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1669</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- I d&#39;o not wish the honorable and learned member to please me; I only desire him to be just. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1669</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I am thankful to the right honorable gentleman for the privilege allowed me of speaking on the Budget, whether my remarks please him or not. I repeat what I said at the outset, that the whole tend&#39;ency of his speech is a promise to the Commonwealth that more money is to be spent. Do not we remember the tones of regret with which he announced that he was spending merely &#163;400,000 upon new works and buildings? I do not remember his exact words, but he said in effect - and perhaps he will break through his usual practice, and correct me if I am in error - - 1 </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1669</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- When the honorable and learned member proposes to criticise my conduct he should have the facts in his possession. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1669</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- The right honorable gentleman pointed out that &#163;400,000 was a small, almost a trifling, sum for this great Commonwealth to spend, even though it had to be obtained from revenue. That did not . strike me as the utterance of a gentleman of an economical turn of mind. It seemed to me rather the remark of one who, rightly and properly, no doubt, sees great opportunities of doing great good by the expenditure of great sums of money ; but who, not having great sums of money to spend, regrets, the loss of those great opportunities for doing great good. That is an excellent and praiseworthy frame of mind. But the taxpayers of Australia, who understand the burdens, and do not always immediately realize the benefits, of expenditure, do not regard the situation with the equanimity with which he regards it. I have no great fault to find with the Estimates, particularly as they have the advantage of being to a large extent those of the preceding Government, and therefore display on the whole Chat due regard for economy which the right honorable gentleman&#39;s remarks do not seem to promise. It is true that they provide for a number of increases. There is, for example, an increase in connexion with defence expenditure. &#163;51,000 more is to be voted for the naval subsidy. Last year, however, we paid only- three-fourths of the annual subsidy, so that the remaining one-fourth was returned to the States. Then there is an increase of about &#163;25,000 to provide for sugar bounties, in connexion with a policy on which the Commonwealth deliberately embarked, for at any rate a limited period, and those who believe in that policy should be glad to see that the amount claimed is increasing, because that fact signifies that the area of the cane-fields cultivated by white labour is extending. There is an increase of &#163;120,000 on last year&#39;s works expenditure, of which some &#163;50,000 is comprised in re-votes ; and there are a number of large works, like the proposed&#39; telephone line between Melbourne and Sydnev, to be undertaken. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1669</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYD</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">POYNTON, Alexander</name>
<name role="display">Mr Poynton</name>
</talker>
<para>- Is not that work to be paid for on a population basis? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1669</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- All new works are to be paid for on a population basis, and I think that before we agree to them we should have some reasonable assurance that they will be remunerative. Then there is an increase of some &#163;40,000 in the proposals for expenditure on defence. That is largely owing to necessary expenditure in connexion with the proper equipment of the forces, as to which I propose to say a word or two later on. It may, however, fairly be stated that in the Estimates about to be submitted for consideration there is no reasonablesign of extravagance or increased extravagance on the part of the Commonwealth. I have already pointed out that, as these are largely - practically wholly - the Estimates of the preceding Government, the last Administration and the present one must share alike in the praise or blame that may be bestowed in that connexion. It is the next Estimates that we view with apprehension, because it may be that the right honorable member for Swan will still be Treasurer when the next Estimates are framed and introduced - that is, if he still remains in Australia, and does not join that party which has been so violently reprobated by the honorable member for Darwin this afternoon. In an utterance like the Budget speech of the Commonwealth, one may expect to hear from the Treasurer some definite proposals upon the great financial questions that are agitating the public mind, and I do not know whether I shall be fortunate enough on this occasion to secure the concurrence of the Treasurer, when I say that, unfortunately, he gave us no definite information on any subject. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1670</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- That is a matter of opinion, upon which the honorable member has a perfect right to express his view. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1670</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I think I may be permitted, without being egotistical, to congratulate myself upon having said something that the right honorable gentleman permits me to say. In his Budget speech, he spoke about the sugar bonus. He told us in general terms that the bonus was to be extended j but he did not state for what period, and he was equally silent upon one or two other important details. It may be that the right honorable gentleman&#39;s association with the Prime Minister, who is frequently up in the clouds, has developed a little of the same nebulous state of mind in himself. He told us that we must increase our population. He gave us a glowing account of Australia, her resources, her wealth, her people, and her future, combined with the fact that we were not increasing our population, and he said that by assisting immigrants with cheap passages, advances from land banks, and grants of land from the States, we should be able to increase the number of useful inhabitants of Australia. He did not tell us how far, if at all, his arrangements with the States Governments had proceeded, or as to what negotiations, if any- </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1670</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- How could I do that? What time had I to do that? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1670</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I do not suppose that the right honorable gentleman could have done so, for the very good reason that no negotiations had proceeded. A vague general statement such as he made, which has no practical work done in connexion with it, is not of very much use to the Commonwealth. When the right honorable gentleman did venture to express one or two opinions, and was asked whether he was announcing the Government policy, he said that the Government had not yet considered this or that subject. The complaint I have to make about his speech, rightly or wrongly, is of- a twofold character, that, in the first place, it- aroused alarm as to the probable future expenditure of the Commonwealth, more especially in connexion with the significant change which has occurred in the right honorable gentleman&#39;s mind with regard to the Braddon section, and, in the second place, on those great questions of public policy, upon which the country is entitled to have definite information with regard to the attitude of the Government, no word was forthcoming. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1670</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYD</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">POYNTON, Alexander</name>
<name role="display">Mr Poynton</name>
</talker>
<para>- Why did not the Government, with which the honorable and learned member was connected, tell us what they intended to do? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1670</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- Because it was unfortunately cut short in the flower of its youth, just when it was about to submit a series of valuable proposals. We have our policy ready for future operations, and will unfold it when we have the opportunity we so much desired of asking the public to determine whether it is wholesome. The Treasurer also referred to the fact that Australia is being decried. We all agree upon that point, and, further, that it is being unjustly decried, but we must remember that we have given some foundation for the superstructure of decrial that has been built up. There is a little fire to cause the very large amount of smoke. Let us take the case, which occurred only the other day, of the groom who came from England to New South Wales. As, I understand the matter, that groom was engaged to comte from London to some inland part of New South Wales under contract to deliver horses. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1670</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- That was done under the Government with which the honorable and learned member was connected. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1671</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- It was done by the AgentGeneral&#39; in London. The Act under which the certificate was issued was not introduced by the Government of which I was a member. I do not profess to know enough about the facts ito be able to say whether this man required an exemption certificate, but I contend that the contract labour section of the Act affords reasonable ground for any ordinary business man to assume that such a certificate was essential ito enable the man to proceed with the horses to his destination. At all events, if the business man concerned made a mistake, he erred on the side of safety in procuring a certificate. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1671</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYD</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">POYNTON, Alexander</name>
<name role="display">Mr Poynton</name>
</talker>
<para>- Did not the honorable and learned member vote for that particular provision ? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1671</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I have no objection to the principle embodied in the section. It was adopted for two specific purposes, namely, to prevent men being brought into Australia under contract to work at less than the prevailing rates of wages, and under worse conditions than the ordinary - a most wholesome object - and to prevent employers from utilizing outside labour as a means of cowing their workmen with whom they might have a difference at a time of strike, or when a strike was impending. We may reasonably hope that, in view of the extension of legislation for conciliation and arbitration throughout the States, we shall not be much troubled with this form of industrial dispute in the future. At any rate, these were the main objects which the section was intended to serve, and I do not for a moment wish to prevent them from being maintained. I contend, however, that the section as it stands lends some colour - I do not say justly so - ito the representations of those who are evilly disposed to Australia, and affords them an opportunity of making statements which are very damaging to us. I never concurred with a great deal of the harsh criticism that was employed in connexion with the six hatters&#39; case, or with most of what was said in connexion with the <inline font-style="italic">Petriana</inline> case. I think that the great bulk of the criticism directed at our past legislation has been unjust and unwarranted, but there is just enough foundation for it to enable those who wish to do so to still build up a number of damaging allegations, and I should like ito see it made clear by legislation or administration that white people who want to come to work here under prevailing conditions, and who are not brought here in&#39; order to confer an advantage upon one of the parties to a dispute, shall be able to do so. This should be done, so that we may not continue to leave ourselves open to the charges which have been made, however&#34; unjust and unfounded we may know them to be. I do not wish to see our legislation so modified as to prevent the great, important, and valuable objects to which I have referred from continuing to be carried into effect. It is largely a false impression that has been conveyed to the minds of the British public in connexion with that provision, an impression that Australia has passed class legislation instead of legislation for the good of the whole community. But legislation, such as the union trade mark provision, for instance, with all the implications that can be built upon it - as that provision stands, I think it is open to objection, but there are other implications that can be built upon it - afford just a sufficiency of foundation for the allegations made against us, to render them difficult to answer. These facts, together with the knowledge that the Treasurer and others are compelled, by the necessities of the political situation, possibly to subordinate their own individual views in matters of this kind, and to concur in the passing of legislation that they do not in their hearts approve of, render it difficult for those who have the welfare of Australia at heart, to do what ought to be done in order to keep the name of the Commonwealth in as good odour as we should like. I desire to say a word or two with regard to the bookkeeping period in reference to which the Treasurer is reported in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard,</inline> at page 1 2 13, as having said - </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<quote>
<para>Unless some better arrangement can be made - </para>
</quote>
<para>That is beautifully definite - a most important qualification. 1 certainly think that the only thing to do is to continue the bookkeeping period until the end of the operation of the Braddon clause- </para>
<para>The honorable member for Capricornia asked - </para>
<quote>
<para>Do the Government intend to do that? </para>
</quote>
<para>Then the Treasurer, with the caution that characterizes him, said - </para>
<quote>
<para>I am not prepared to make a definite statement on that point. </para>
</quote>
<para>He is not reported as having, said &#34;nor any other,&#34; but he might as well have said it. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1671</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4S</name.id>
<electorate>PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">COOK, Joseph</name>
<name role="display">Mr JOSEPH COOK</name>
</talker>
<para>- That is statesmanship. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1672</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KXO</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">PAGE, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Page</name>
</talker>
<para>- It is like one of the statements of the right honorable member for East Sydney. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1672</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- When honorable members have to resort to <inline font-style="italic">tu quo que</inline> argument they are hard put to it. We have already taken a step in the direction of what we might call the true finance of Federation by charging all our expenditure in connexion with works and buildings upon a population basis. That is a step of which I approve in spite of the temporary disadvantage that results to one or two States that are more- forward than others. I do not particularize the States for fear of interruption. I feel, however, that if the bookkeeping be continued either for the five years originally intended, or for a further term until the end of the period fixed for the operation of the Braddon section, or for any other period, and we make a sudden change at the end of that fixed term, from the bookkeeping to the other method, there will be great outcries. We have had a wholesome example of what can be done by proceeding gradually, instead of abruptly, in connexion with the Western Australian Special Tariff&#39;. The Tariff has been diminished year by year by one-fifth, and will disappear next year. There has been no great complaint in that connexion. The fears that were at one time expressed, that the finances of Western Australia would suffer, have not been realized,, and it may be that the fact that the receipts have been greater than was anticipated has contributed to that result. In that case we have, bv the use of a sliding scale, largely diminished the objection that would attach to making a sudden change, and it seems to me that we might with advantage adopt a similar principle in connexion with the transition from the bookkeeping system to the more truly Federal system of finance. It is quite true that the circumstances of Western Australia are different in this respect - that the adoption of a system of expenditure upon a population basis would affect that State to its detriment, much more materially than it would any other State. I am inclined to think that the Treasurer did not overlook that fact when he declared that in his opinion the bookkeeping period should be extended for a number of years. In this connexion, I. think- and I &#34;speak not merely from my own impressions, because I have the advantage of knowing the mind of the right honorable member for Balaclava upon the subject, and we all recognise that his opinion is worthy of every consideration - .that we should abolish the bookkeeping period gradually by adopting a sliding scale extending over five years. In view of the special circumstances of Western Australia, I should be quite satisfied - although she is getting advantages in other directions - to allow the sliding scale in her case to extend over a period of ten years. I feel convinced that some such method is the only one which will satisfy the public as a whole in exchanging the bookkeeping system for a <inline font-style="italic">-per capita</inline> method. We cannot remain upon the bookkeeping basis for ever. So long as that system continues it cannot be said that we are- truly federated. At the same time, we ought to make the change gradually, and, therefore, I suggest that we should adopt a five years&#39; sliding scale in the case of all the States except Western Australia, with a somewhat longer period in the case of that State. I should now like to say a word or two in reference to what is called the Braddon section of the Constitution. I do not know whether the Treasurer entertains the view, that that section should cease to operate at the period fixed for its expiry by the Constitution. As I have apparently misunderstood his remarks, I shall be glad to know his opinion upon the matter. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1672</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>-. - The honorable and learned member will see my view of it by reference to page 12 17 of <inline font-style="italic">Hansard.</inline></para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1672</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- The Treasurer stated- </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<quote>
<para>I do not see that much good can result to the States by extending the duration of the Braddon provision. It may restrict the spending powers Of this Parliament, but I cannot imagine that we shall do anything to injure the people of the States. They are our constituents, and to injure them would be to injure ourselves. This Parliament will neither injure nor ignore the people o.r the States- </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">That sentence means, if it means anything, that he is an advocate for not extending the Braddon section of the Constitution. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1672</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KXO</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">PAGE, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr Page</name>
</talker>
<para>- What else could it mean? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1672</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I do not know. When I said just now that the right honorable gentleman had expressed the opinion that the Braddon section should not be continued, he challenged the accuracy of my statement. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1672</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- I said - as will be seen by reference to the same page - that my judgment led me in the direction of desiring to return to -the States a fixed sum annually, and that, under such conditions, there would be no necessity for a continuance of the Braddon section. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1673</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- That would be a most delightful system for the Commonwealth to adopt, but it would not be appreciated by the States Treasurers, because the population of Australia will grow - the Government anticipate that their policy will make it increase by leaps and bounds - whereas the Commonwealth contribution would remain the same. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1673</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- I said that a fixed sum might be returned to the States, subject to periodical adjustments. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1673</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I understood the right honorable gentleman to propose the Canadian practice. We must recollect, however, that when that system was adopted in Canada the revenue from the sources from which we derive ,&#163;7,000,000 annually was something less than &#163;1,000,000. That is a very different state .pf affairs from that which obtains in the Commonwealth. We could make an arrangement in regard to &#163;1,000,000 that we could not make in regard to ,&#163;7,000,000. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1673</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- To this day the Dominion Government returns so much per head to the Canadian provinces. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1673</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- The right honorable gentleman wishes to do away with the Braddon section. But I would point out that, whatever authority may spend the public money, be it Commonwealth or State, the same citizens have to pay. That fact should be remembered. I say that the people of Australia rightly regard the Braddon section as a check upon Federal expenditure. Fancy this Parliament with the restriction imposed by that section, or some other equally powerful restriction, removed from our Constitution ! Fancy the saturnalia of Federal expenditure with the Treasurer as high priest ! Even he would forget to be economical under such circumstances. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1673</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- The honorable and learned member will represent me as a very extravagant individual presently. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1673</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- The taxpayers of Australia say that there must be some check imposed upon Federal expenditure. If we took over all the transferred departments which have not yet been established - leaving out of consideration our special sources of expenditure, such as the sugar bounty, the iron bonus, old-age pensions, &#38;c. - by being somewhat extravagant we could easily expend very close up to our one-fourth share of the Customs and excise receipts. Even the right honorable gentleman himself might find it comparatively easy to achieve that result. But if anything like the remaining three-quarters of the Customs and excise revenue were available to this. Parliament there would be, a temptation to spend which we might find irresistible. We all know that in the case of Parliaments with large sums at their disposal there is a very great disposition to spend money. The spending decisions of any Legislature are nearly always limited by its spending capacity. A Parliament which, throughout a long period - in the face of pressure brought to bear in favour of expending a little money here and a little there - would virtuously . resist the temptation, and return to the States sums which it is under no obligation to return, is such an anomaly in modern life that we need not seriously contemplate its continued existence. The fact that for some years past the Commonwealth has been doing -this is due to the circumstance that our actions have been scrutinized with great exactitude, and have had bestowed upon them greater attention that has ever before been bestowed upon the actions of any Parliament. Moreover, we were morally bound to return to the States as much as we could, owing to the fact that we had fixed a limit which our expenditure was not to exceed ; and in the early days of the Federation we felt it incumbent upon us to give a sufficient reason for every pound that we proposed to spend. But if we were released from the obligations imposed by the Braddon section, all the big schemes for spending hundreds of thousands of pounds in various directions </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1673</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L17</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">WILKS, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Wilks</name>
</talker>
<para>- By way of bonuses. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1673</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- I believe in bonuses, so that I cannot sympathize with the interjection of the honorable member. I repeat that under such circumstances there would be a temptation to spend money which this Parliament would find irresistible. There must be some check upon our powers of expenditure, and the people of Australia feel that the effect of the Braddon section has been a salutary one. The fact that we have kept within its limits is no reason for doing away with all restriction, so that we can exceed those limits. The taxpayers regard that&#39; section as one of their best safeguards against unnecessary Federal expenditure. There are legitimate objects upon which we could expend large sums of money if we wished to do so. In this connexion I may instance the question of old-age pensions. Before I vote for that proposal, I wish to see where the money necessary to give effect to it is to come from. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1674</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- I hope that the honorable and learned member does not infer from anything I have said that I wish to return to the States less than has been returned to them. I desire to give them as much as I can. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1674</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- The right honorable gentleman means that he wishes to give them as much as he can spare, which is an utterly different thing. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1674</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4S</name.id>
<electorate>PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">COOK, Joseph</name>
<name role="display">Mr JOSEPH COOK</name>
</talker>
<para>- Does not the honorable and learned&#39; member think that in regard to the iron bonus - apart from the merits of the question altogether - we might inquire where the money with which to pay it is to come from? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1674</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCCAY, James</name>
<name role="display">Mr McCAY</name>
</talker>
<para>- The Commonwealth will be in a position to pay that bonus out of its&#39; one-fourth of the Customs and Excise revenue. &#39;We will not be required to spend; &#163;300,000 in one year. The Treasurer has said that in regard to the transferred Departments we ought to adopt the&#39; system of crediting and debiting balances. At first sight it seems to be common sense that we should merely account for differences, instead of crediting and debiting the whole amount. There is no objection to that from a bookkeeping stand-point, nor is there from the stand-point of the taxpayers, if we did not expend more than we are entitled to. But if we are merely to credit and debit balances, it is only the interest on the balances which will have to be appropriated out of the one-fourth of the Customs and Excise revenue to which the Commonwealth is entitled. On the other hand, if we credited arid debited the totals, the matter would assume a very different complexion. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1674</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>