Octothorpe_111.srt

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 Alison, stop responding to Laurie on Discord, we're podcasting.

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 Fair.

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 Hello everyone and welcome to the very 111th episode of Octa Thorpe, which is

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 ringing its way to you on the 6th of June 2024. I'm John Coxon, I'm Alison Scott and I'm Liz Batty.

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 And we don't have letters of comments today listeners, because we are going to be discussing

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 the Hugo novel finalists. That is right, the six finalists for Best Novel in the Hugo Awards

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 to be presented at Glasgow in 2024. The first novel we are going to discuss is The Adventures of

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 Amina Al-Sarafi by Shannon Chakraborti. I believe we have all read this book. The synopsis is

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 basically there is a woman who has a family and then she is put in a situation in which she must

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 jeopardize that family in order to do something for someone and that she doesn't really want to do

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 and in order to do that she has to do a lot of other things just to get the gang back together

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 and the gang getting back together takes some time and then she has to do a thing with a person.

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 I don't want to spoil it. She has to meet two people, one of whom wants some bathroom remodeling,

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 on the way there are birds. That is, yeah, simultaneously accurate and completely useless done. Well done.

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 It's the Coxing Guarantee. I quite liked it. I thought it was too long but the things that were

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 in it were good and I think if it would have been, if it was shorter I would have enjoyed it a great

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 deal more but I did enjoy it regardless. What did you peeps think about it?

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 I mean do we want to give a little bit more of exposition here which is, you know, say the woman

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 going off and getting the gang back together is a notorious pirate. Yes. And she's off for, you know,

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 more pirate adventures and there's sea creatures and monsters and then a kind of swerve into magic.

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 It is basically a piratey adventure novel and I like piratey adventure novels. It's a good solid one.

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 I would agree that it is a piratey adventure novel. I did not like this book very much.

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 I thought it was too long for the story it was telling. I also, it spends about half the novel

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 getting the band back together and then it spends the last quarter of the novel setting the gang

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 up for the sequel and so there's only really a very small amount of novel for it actually to

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 have this novel's plot in it and even so everything is very spun out there.

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 A kind of, every so often she'll describe something and some of the other novels on this list have

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 quite a long descriptive passage. You really feel you inhabit them whereas in this you kind of feel

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 like it's a tourist guide to the city that she's wandered up into or the place she is now. It feels

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 like an observer looking at it in a way that I don't think you ought to. I think it should

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 come much more from her own experience. I think there is a problem with writing pirate novels

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 which is that you have to find a way to allide the fact that pirates are actually quite nasty

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 people and this woman is an notorious pirate and they really don't show you why she is a notorious

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 pirate because this is a very cozy novel and that would kind of distract from the coziness.

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 There wasn't enough here for me especially not for a novel of 150,000 words and I understand that's

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 because I'm old and I have to divide my remaining life by the novels I read but I would really have

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 liked this to be tighter and shorter and just not this so sorry shall I interrupt you? You're

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 probably not the novelist for me. I think I want to say I never felt like she felt like a tourist. I

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 always felt like she was a tour guide. I really liked how it felt like it was introducing me to

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 this area that both the character and the author clearly have a lot of affection for and it kind

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 of feels like when you go and see someone when they've just moved into a city they love and

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 they're telling you all the things they love about their city it felt like following a friend

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 around a wonderful place and I really did like that. I liked the sense of place very much.

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 I don't know how much of that is the actual history because this is kind of a fancy novel but

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 it's very much based in kind of the at-hall past history of around the Indian Ocean but there's more

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 magic and crockons and stuff and it's not a feel that I know a lot about so I can't tell you

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 how to whether it does have this much historical accuracy going on but it does feel like she's

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 kind of taking all that and using it's very interesting kind of set-dretting/world building

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 for the plot. This is not a criticism of the novel but in the front matter there's a blurb and one

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 of the people who reviewed it favorably said oh this is really giving you a chance to be immersive

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 in a fantasy version of the 12th century around the Indian Ocean which is not an environment that

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 most of us know very much about and I'm like well one of the world's most famous story cycles is set

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 in this time zone and indeed also has plenty of magic and fantasy and this is the raw stuff from

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 which with which Chakrabarty is working and I'm sure she has added to that with historical research

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 but I think you just do better to go back and read chunks of the thousand and one nights which is

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 very good reading and remains so. I think two things to say there one is that you know there

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 is room for more than one historical fantasy novel set in the 12th century we don't kind of go to all

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 you know retellings of Arthurian legend and say oh well just read the original one you don't need

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 to do anything else and yeah also like we're judging 2024 books I mean are we judging where these

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 things go in like the pantheon of all books ever that seems a bit harsh because nothing's going to

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 end up judging well on that right I mean I think I like this better than both of you so that's why

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 defending it a bit more. Oh I sorry I don't mean to imply that I didn't like it I liked it a lot I

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 thought it was too long I did think it was too long and part of that is that there is a part where

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 it diverts into the and this is going to jar for listeners against something I say later I think

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 but there is a part where it diverts into like the specifics of exactly what is happening in terms of

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 the pericourt and stuff which I won't explain what it is because it's a bit of a spoiler but

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 those who have read it will know and I just I didn't really think I needed that trunk of the book

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 like I could have quite happily just excised that and I could have gotten rid of transgressions

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 with a capital T and I could have and it might have felt a bit less like a fetch quest but other

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 than that I really enjoyed as I say the sense of place I really enjoyed the adventure it is the

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 first novel in a trilogy but I will also say I thought it came to a pleasing end like I am not

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 going to be upset if I don't read the other two books it doesn't feel like there's too much dangling

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 in terms of the character arcs and and yeah I really liked it and certainly

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 sort of yeah I have I have I have criticisms but they are not huge criticisms I'd be quite happy

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 I'm quite happy that this is on the ballot like I don't feel like it's a an imposition or anything

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 like that there was something else we're gonna say as someone who has read so I've recently

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 watched our flag means death and I listened to a podcast called campaign sky jacks and pirate

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 fiction tends to include the fact that pirates are you know rapists and murderers but in the same

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 way that superhero fiction tends to include the fact that vigilantism is bad like there's

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 this is a fundamental temple of the genre I'm not sure I don't know I'm unwilling to

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 level that criticism here because I don't want to read about actual pirates because they were awful

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 but this was great so I'm happy with with that um generally this is just clearly not the sort of

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 book I'm much up for but I mean I've had times in my past when I read a quite a lot of books that

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 were quite like this and really enjoyed them and I might have times in the future that 60,000

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 good reads reviews on this book some enormous number it's hugely popular hugely successful

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 I think you know all those people can't be wrong it's clearly doing a lot for a lot of people

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 I'm just one of them. Spiler I am going to say later all these people can be wrong not in this one

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 but later it's reminded me of something else I want to say about this book which is absolutely

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 not the author's fault as well so in the e-reader versions of this book whether it's

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 Kindle or Kobo there are sections of the novel which are text which are rendered as images

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 which is the most annoying thing ever and it probably won't matter to you if you're already

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 if you normally read books in the font size that those sections are in you might not even notice

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 but if you are older and you read books in a larger font you have to basically go into the image and

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 then and then zoom in and I'll read those sections of the actual novel they are not illustrations

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 they are sections of the novel which should be rendered as images it's very bad yeah because I

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 think one of the good things about you know we can lock over or e-book in any way is you can set the

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 text size however you like while we're on the subject of things that are annoying it's lovely

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 that publishers put things into the Hugo packet we appreciate it very much please don't put it in

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 as a PDF with a watermark because that makes it almost impossible for me to read because I'm

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 I'm older now I need to be able to manage the font size on my books and I'm not the only one yeah

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 Witchking by Martha Wells is a story it's about a witchking the witchking is a demon called

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 Kai we are in a secondary world fantasy where there has been a great war and upheaval and we are now

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 following Kai and some of his allies telling the story of what's happening the present of this world

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 as well as telling Kai's backstory and kind of how his character came about and how this world

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 came about and how the war ended that's what I'm going to say because I admit I have reached only

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 65% ish just because I got it from the Hugo packet and it came out pretty late and it's quite a long

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 book so it's possible that anything I say will be rendered wrong by dramatic upheaval and revelation

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 in the last 30% but I can give you my views on the first 65 again like the else roughly it's a

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 competent example of a book I'm not super interested in it's a good secondary world fantasy I think

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 Kai is a pretty interesting character he is basically a demon who can suck the life out of mortals and

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 jump between bodies and has a kind of set of magical powers and he is allied with people who

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 have different magical powers I think the world building is interesting but sometimes you get a

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 paragraph which is something like and the immortal blessed and the immortal marshals who do their

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 power from the well of you know Tess Fassian who you know and then they fought for the higher arcs

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 in the battle of the summer halls where Kai was allied with third prince baschasha and the rising

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 world you've forgotten the rising world I forgot to say this is in the rising world like you get

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 paragraphs like that and I think it is to Wells' credit that I kind of understand what's going on

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 there but it doesn't make it for me uh super interesting and easy read it feels like a good

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 secondary world fantasy but I probably would not pick up secondary world fantasies unless they're

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 astonishingly good and this one is merely pretty good I have something in common with this which

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 is that I am 65% of the way through this book um so just two thirds of the way through the book

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 because it came out in the Hugo packet I nevertheless had given it plenty of hours I really like the

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 structure I like the fact that she's telling the story now and then she's also got this very

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 interesting character Kai and she's kind of telling the story of how he got that way and now the

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 time two thirds of the way through the book I am quite enjoying it but for the first

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 quarter of the book I was finding it pretty tedious the writing is excellent throughout the world

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 building is good you believe in the situation that these people find themselves in but I'm finding

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 this book to be like pushing a large boulder in that I have to keep pushing if I if I my attention

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 drifts for a minute oh I'm off like looking out the window or wondering about lunch or you know it's

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 it's just not it is not compelling for me I have to continuously engage in the process of reading to

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 keep reading this book and normally when that happens it's you know if it's like a classic and

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 I'm going to know what people like about it by the end of it or I I will at least be able to say

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 well I have read Anna Corellina or whatever or if I am reading a non-fiction book and I'm expecting

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 to learn something as a result of the process or even when I'm reading science fiction and I am

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 expecting science fiction to tell me something important about the way we live or the way we

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 should be living I just generally with fantasy I'm like eh the job of a fantasy books to tell me a

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 good story so if it's not keeping me reading it's not quite doing that yeah so fantasy fans don't

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 write it this is a problem with me I know fantasies can do all of that regular listeners will know

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 that fantasy is not my favorite bit of the genre I think that I like fantasy more than you I liked

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 this book I thought it was interesting that it tries to do something a bit non-linear with the

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 storytelling and I really liked how it starts in the thick of the action and like you're

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 starting with someone who is being called a demon and you're like well are they the good guy are

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 they the bad guy like what's going on how does it source lot together why is he so worried about

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 his friend why is this happening and I I very much liked that as the book went on I found that

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 sense of urgency diminished a little bit and I think that did make it slower for me to read

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 I suspect is also quite a long book but I can't find a word count anywhere on the internet but it

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 felt long when I was reading it to go back to what Liz was saying about kind of like the rising world

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 and all of the proper nouns I found it sometimes a little bit confusing what was actually happening

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 Wells would mention a character I'd be like who is that and I'd like search for it in the text of

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 the book and I'd be like oh they've been mentioned three times in the entire novel and the last time

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 their name was mentioned was a hundred pages ago so of course I don't remember their name I wonder

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 if part of the reason it's hard to read is because it sometimes gets a little bit muddled and I wonder

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 whether actually having fewer characters and having more explicit kind of remember they're doing this

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 but done better than like a little text box would have made it a lot easier for me to read because

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 there were a few bits where I had to go back and be like okay I think I've lost the thread here

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 slightly what is actually going on before all of that I did like it and I do like the two main

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 characters very much I also quite liked I thought the world building was intriguing in some ways

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 it was quite vague and it's clearly set up so that more stories can be told in this world by very

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 much liked how complete their character arc for the two main characters felt by the end of the book

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 I wouldn't be surprised if she writes followers follow-ups in this universe but I'm not sure I'd

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 be surprised if she didn't tell more stories about Kai although there is definitely room to tell those

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 stories yeah I think part of it was I think she wants to tell a really deep world and part of that

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 is having like the different types of magic and powers that are available and you know the different

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 ways that the people are getting their energy you know some people are fed by deaths some people

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 are fed by kind of the power of the under earth some of the people are fed by natural wells of power

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 that get focused or something and it's got these characters called the immortal blessed in the

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 immortal marshals who are kind of this vision of like white and gold coming down from the sky

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 and so obviously maybe that's contrast to the witch king or whatever but it just felt like the

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 slightly too many things that are all introduced for me to keep track of all of them so the depth

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 of the world building is making it a bit hard and even once I've got to 60% in I still know what's

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 going on but it's more like oh yeah we've heard of that a couple of times how is that well different

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 from this well is different from the other well yeah I mean there is a castor character the

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 front jump so that's probably where you're supposed to go if you forget who people are

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 I'd have to say I didn't have find that problem but I mean I read it probably read it in a much

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 more compressed time frame it wasn't just a very quickly say it wasn't just characters though it

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 was tough like I don't remember the name of the town they're going to ah stuff like that like

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 like stuff to do with the concrete facts of the world I found that she was not using the names

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 often enough and it meant they weren't sticking in my head so I will say I thought the witch king

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 was better than the murder bot novel I like Wells better when she is writing fantasy than science

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 fiction I was a huge fan of the Rexia series and I really like the murder bots but I never thought

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 they were like the best of the best things his life bred I thought they were really good by

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 doing they were amazing I think I do prefer this I only read one murder but novella I quite enjoyed

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 it I haven't read the rest I read the first one I read the first two I really really like the first

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 one I thought the second one was kind of a bit too much like the first one this is true of

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 Alison and all series those again oh 100% I want to say this book may be angry at a bit where he's

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 talking to the demon who turns out to be the antagonist in part of the novel and they reminded

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 me of a bit from Amina Al-Sarafi there is a point in Amina Al-Sarafi where Amina maybe

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 I don't know third of the way through the novel is talking to Salima I think I like I felt so angry

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 on Amina's behalf because Salima was being so awful and there is a part in this book where

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 Kai has a conversation with someone and it made me roitously furious and I enjoyed it on both occasions

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 I very much thought both novels do a good job of portraying injustices in a way that I thought was

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 intriguing and I enjoyed even if it wasn't like the focal point I want to make it clear that I

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 I might have been a sounded a little harsh I think this is you know pretty good and I'm gonna

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 finish it and I don't if I'll read the sequels but that's just because quite often I read the first

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 book in a series think that's great I don't need to read more of it it will depend but I mean

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 I'm definitely happy with it being on the Hugo list it probably would not have been on my personal

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 list but I think it's perfectly fine to be there I feel the fact that I'm struggling to keep going

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 with this book is not actually a reflection on the book it's it's me I'm sure I will finish it

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 I'm in the next couple of days and I just said there's lots and lots I like about it and

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 clearly lots of people do really like this one as well and and because I'm I guess terribly

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 elitist I actually I have more sympathy for a book that I'm finding slightly hard to read but

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 that's a lot of people like the book that I think is is too shallow that's a lot of people like so

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 that's also me so on the subject of books that Alison thinks are too shallow shall we discuss the

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 scallory segue to I think it's too shallow um that's a fascinating question so stottavillan is

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 a novel about a john scallory hero his name is Charlie so he's down on his luck he's got no money

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 and the only thing he's really got in the world is his parents home his parents are now dead which

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 his step brothers and sister are trying to force him out of and he wakes up one day to discover

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 that his uncle who was a recruit reclusive multi-billionaire has died and wants him to take over

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 a I mean you don't discover this quite a way but you discover it quite soon wants him to take

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 over the family business which soon turns out to be super villainy and he goes off and learns how

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 you'd be a supervillain and and stuff happens and also there are talking cats so this is a

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 intended to be a comic novel and indeed there is funny stuff in it and there was one place where I

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 laughed out loud at a joke that I would say is pretty purer all it is funny in places and

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 it is way less so last year scallory wast is stuck on this novel knocked off Khaji

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 preservation society I think Khaji preservation society hung together much more as a coherent

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 novel than this one does because this one there is not a single page where I didn't go no that's

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 ridiculous no you are telling me to believe this I do not have disbelief suspenders that are big

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 enough for this novel or strong enough for this novel this is nonsense you don't get to write

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 nonsense just because it's a funny novel um or actually you do but you have to be funnier than

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 this there's a kind of balance here I don't think this book is funny enough to justify the

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 nonsensical nature of it obviously millions of people on the internet disagree with me because

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 this is another very popular book and if you like it I'm sorry it's fine Liz any thoughts I mean

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 I think you could probably take my section on the scaldy novel from last year's shortlist and

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 just change from the names and stick in here Liz look I know I am not I'm not the target audience

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 these things I would not have read this unless it was on the Hugo shortlist because I already know

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 that like with rare exceptions scaldy books tend not to hit for me and it had all the same things

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 that I didn't really like about last year it's extremely glib it doesn't really make sense if you

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 think about it for more than like two minutes I didn't particularly like the main character

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 everyone sounds exactly the same and quippy and makes pop culture references although not as many

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 as in last year's book the talking cats are slightly amusing and the swari dolphins are slightly

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 amusing but I think my main thing is like it is so shallow like for a book about basically finding

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 out your relative was a supervillain and in a there was a sort of secret society of supervillains

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 or maybe it wasn't a supervillain I don't think it really delves at all into what it means to be

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 a villain it kind of like goes a little way in there by saying whoa just exploiting the system

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 and things like that and then kind of tiptoes back from it and then gets a little bit maybe deeper

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 into it and then tiptoes back but it never really delves into like what his uncle must have been

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 doing to accumulate trillions and trillions of dollars and for all you can say that he's doing

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 it by you know opposing the other villains he still managed to accumulate trillions and trillions

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 of dollars and owns his own volcano island where he treats the staff quite well but he does own his

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 own volcano island like it doesn't really want to dig into this I think because it's trying to be a

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 bit more fun than that but it just feels like it skates shallowly over the top yeah so I think

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 this so this is true and I think it everything Liz said I agree with I liked this in the sort of

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 I read 75% of it in an hour kind of way like it it's not a long process it's kind of

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 scallisy in his zany mode which I enjoy far less than scallisy in his thoughtful sci-fi mode I

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 think I much prefer the science fiction to the zanyness I want to say like so scallisy clearly

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 is bothered by rich people being bastards because this has been one of the themes of his last two

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 novels both of which have ended up on the Hugo Ballot but I think both the adventures of

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 Aminal, Serafy and Saint of Bright Doors and some desperate glory been a very different way

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 they all also touch on what it means to abuse power the adventures of Amina or

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 else Raffy especially like Salima is it made me much more angry than any of the billionaires in

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 this do and obviously Salima is not a billionaire but she has a commensurate amount of wealth for

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 the time the other thing is I found the description of the billionaires in this much more sanitized

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 than I found the description of the pirates in Amina because billionaires are bastards like

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 you don't get that much money if you're not a sociopath and so it is I don't know it feels

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 like a kids daydream in terms of like the fundamental setting which you know I don't necessarily mind

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 but I don't necessarily also want to give it a Hugo award I have a lot more I think I have a lot

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 more time for scallisy than either of you do and I do enjoy his novels when I read them but I agree

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 with this that I probably wouldn't have got to this had it not been on the ballot because there is

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 so much else to read at the moment I keep wondering when scallisy is going to do something in the

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 because I loved the old man's war series I thought it was really good and yeah he hasn't done anything

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 that made me think that since I guess the last mprox series which I also really liked but yeah

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 this is not this is not where he sings for me I just feel I could have watched that Simpson's

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 episode where Homer goes to work for Hank's Scorpio in about 22 minutes and it probably would have

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 had more left so but that is why I put in the notes that it shares with the Adventures of

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 Amina out Sarafi a desire not to talk about how criminals make them on it you know that that is

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 that was my point about the book that you cut me off of then made that I said in chat I want to say

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 one thing before we move on which is it does account as a reference if you explain it every

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 single time like every time scallisy makes a reference he explains how clever he is by having

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 made the reference with one of his other characters and it's like John you're making references that's

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 fine stop explaining them it's like the guy in the bar who keeps saying that was a quote from this

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 movie you know and it's like I know and I wish you'd stop it's it's very it's annoying tick I don't

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 mind putting references in it's the constantly is the constantly lamp shading the fact you're

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 putting references in that's it's very irritating maybe that's why I prefer the stuff is that isn't

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 set in modern day earth I'm always saying I like lock in which I guess is earth based and

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 didn't like the last themprox as much as you lock in's definitely him in sort of thoughtful

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 science fiction mode more yeah I like that let's have a bit more of that right books I would like

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 more basically is what I'm saying here which just go to it's pretty generally applicable advice

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 I'm just wondering if there's anything else I want to say about scallisy I think people who will like

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 it will like who like his comic novels will like this oh yeah did you say earlier that you thought

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 the plot was unambitious because I think that's part of my gripe with this that it is it is telling

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 a very a very dull story where everything falls in ways that are convenient

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 translation state is a novel that is set in the worlds of ancillary this that and the other

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 and follows I guess it picks up a thread from that trilogy which is about the Prescott translators

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 Prescott are aliens who are very much not like humans and their translators are very much

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 very sort of are the are how the the Meskidism that the Prescott used to talk to people and so

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 this novel we've said the stories of a of a person who has spent their life up to this point

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 caring for their dead grandmother and is then thrown out of the home they lived in and told to go

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 solve a mystery of a missing Prescott translator a Prescott translator who you meet as a juvenile

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 and then learn about their how they grew up and then another character and these three stories

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 are told chapter by chapter and they are all entwined and I like this a lot and I the one of the

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 problems where you get stories where you have three different narrators is that one of the

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 one of the tales is told in first person the other two or a third person one of the things

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 with stories with three different narrators is often you find you want to read one of them more

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 than the others and one of them slightly more interesting than the other two but I actually

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 enjoyed all three of these strands I enjoyed the way they all came together I enjoyed learning more

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 about the Prescott translators who were even weirder that I had thought and yeah I like I'm

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 lucky I feel like she can do no wrong maybe like her books there's a lot here about identity and

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 autonomy and I like all that stuff which I like novels that talk about it a lot and deal with it

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 and it does a lot of that I observed that there was a weird running around the maze

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 a maze section later in the book and I wasn't quite sure what it was for and John said it's

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 allegorical in it and it obviously is this is a standalone novel it probably helps if you've read

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 the ancillary trilogy wouldn't have thought so but it might be wrong I mean maybe I forgot most

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 of it so I have I had forgotten most of it because I forget most of all of books it will at the very

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 least spoil the ancillary novels if you read this one first then you plan to go back so don't

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 yes that's true yeah so read a first if you're going to I quite like to translation state I think

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 all of the characters are interesting in their own ways and the novel had a lot to say about

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 boundaries which I found really interesting I think it's in some ways this is another novel that

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 may be very angry with one of the secondary characters who spawns about like she owns the

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 place and I just want to punch her in the face which is lovely I thought that it was a very

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 believable portrayal of two people where you can see that they are thinking things that are compatible

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 but neither of them thinks the other is thinking that I really liked that I think this is probably

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 actually my favorite of her book so far but I really liked it also the grandmother sounded

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 awful I did enjoy this book but that's because I bought my copy of this book while I was shopping

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 in California with John last year hey and therefore it's a nice memory of that and all the advice we

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 gave to that man who was second handbook shopping at the same time as us yeah and made him buy stuff

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 other than that yeah I think I think you've got a lot of it I think I like it a bit less than you

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 because I think it gets not bogged down especially but okay so I really love the preska because they

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 are so stupendously alien in in some ways I think it's a really I often complain about books where

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 the aliens are not alien enough and I think the preska do a great job of just like their children

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 being so unsettling these juveniles and so then you do get this idea of why people are like okay

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 we can't have preska juveniles you know just running around because they are incredibly dangerous

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 and don't know what they're doing can I clarify preska translated juveniles yes sorry preska

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 translated juveniles and I think the problem is that you know from the start how these three people

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 are going to converge basically you know within like a couple of chapters what's going on and

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 then it takes a little while to get them all into place and then there's quite a long stretch where

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 I suspect I just didn't gel with this as much as you did but like we end up with two of the

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 characters basically going through puberty together hiding under a blanket and there's some interesting

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 stuff but the voices of them are incredibly teenage and I've found this a bit in other lecke

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 novels that sometimes I feel like the character voices are very much younger than I think the

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 characters actually are and this doesn't quite work for me and so once we got to that point I

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 was kind of like okay I'm enjoying the character building but can we kind of move it forward a bit

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 please that's fair so I think what I'm saying is I would like this book but I would maybe shrink

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 it by a third and speed up the bits I didn't enjoy as much as the other bits but the bits I did

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 enjoy I really enjoy I mean I really love like the first 60 pages I thought this is going to be

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 amazing and then it didn't quite pull it off so so you so the blanket bits didn't really work for

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 you and the maze bits didn't really work for me guys guys guess which bits were my favorite bits

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 Liz Liz has given me a look at Alice it is until he's eloited I really like the maze and part of

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 this is because I really like that kind of like it reminded me a lot of like cosmic horror in a way

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 like which is a genre I adore and it kind of like you know what you see is not quite what you see

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 and there are things happening that you don't really understand because they're happening in

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 a dimension you can't really perceive and I was like oh I like this bit big good and it was also a

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 metaphor for the maze of their relationship and I was like oh she's bloody gone and done it

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 a cosmic horror metaphor oh John is just the happiest man alive now bloody lover cosmic horror

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 metaphor to talk about relationships and feelings and things but I like this one yeah I mean I do

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 think that is one of leckeys I'm gonna say strengths but I think it's almost spawned like an entire

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 I think like subgenre of space opera where we also have feelings yes one like because I don't

347
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 think you can have Becky Chambers without translation state not translation state without

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 ancillary justice like I just don't I don't think you can have a memory when we call

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 Empire without it either no yeah yeah you know I think ancillary justice was an incredibly

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 important novel in our field it's one of the ones where everything we're reading now

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 owes a huge debt to that novel yeah yeah like june harley I think I see it in like alia

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 deboto stuff and I do genuinely like it I think I just have a slightly lower tolerance for feelings

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 and so sometimes there's too much feelings I want the right amount of feelings no yeah I get it I

354
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 completely get it I can see one of the things and I think we'll come back to this later but one of

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 things I really like about this short list is that it is six novels all of whom feel quite different

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 from one another in ways they have like shared themes but like I think this book does what it's

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 doing really well and I don't think any of the other books on the short list are trying so much

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 except maybe the test which we might come on to in a bit yeah now I think of the six books this

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 might be the one that fills its brief best for me oh yeah which is not doesn't mean that it's

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 going to be top of my list spoilers because I think it's briefest maybe somewhat less exciting

361
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 than a couple of the other novels on the list so whichever ones we've got left right

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 but but I think it's actually you know it feels very very very well put together

363
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 in lots of different ways yeah it's very accomplished very I think even and definitely from a novelist

364
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 who knows what they are doing and is doing it I agree with that

365
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 Saint of Bright Doors is the first novel from Vajra Chanda Sakera is another kind of fancy

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 novel but maybe not it's basically the main character is Feta who is a child who was raised

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 essentially to kill his father who is a saint and we sort of follow his fairly meandering journey

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 around the world interacting with his father and his father's enormous cult he moves to a city

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 called Luriat where he you know encounters bureaucracy gets involved with the arts I should

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 also say that Feta can see a whole bunch of invisible devils that no one else can see and is basically

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 trying to hide his is true nature a lot of the time Luriat is a city where there are the the

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 bright doors which just kind of appear out of nowhere mysterious portals it kind of follows Feta

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 through honor as I say sort of slightly meandering maybe not super obvious storyline but which

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 feels comes to a very like satisfying ending somehow that's not a great description but I find

375
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 this one quite hard to describe it's not as simple as xyz things happen this is the ending

376
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 it's like it does not do what you expect I think if I was going to describe this book I would say

377
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 it's about a man who is grappling with the expectations of his parents and the ways in which he reacts

378
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 to those expectations the ways in which they intersect with other people's expectations of him

379
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 and the ways in which he feels he has not lived up to those expectations or all lived up to them

380
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 I think it's a very personal story where the the real the thing that happens is really all

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 infectors it's not I don't mean to say it's imaginary but like the arc of the book is very much

382
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 in Feta like what's happening around him is is almost secondary to what's happening to him

383
00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:21,680
 if that makes any sense at all but I agree it's hard to summarize I really what things I've really

384
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:25,360
 really liked about this level I really like the city I really like the sense that we were

385
00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:32,240
 that Feta has this enormous weight when we said he was honed honed to kill his father I think by

386
00:37:32,240 --> 00:37:37,600
 his mother I think is not yeah too much of a spoiler you discover this very early in the book

387
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:45,440
 and you know I can I can see why this is like a lot particularly good ex-relationship

388
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:52,480
 but he goes off to a city and the city has other people who are like him in that they are

389
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:59,200
 semi saintly or they have they are touched by the world it's not around us and also lots of

390
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,920
 people are particularly ordinary and so whenever Feta has a conversation with one of those people

391
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:09,440
 that touches on any of this they're just kind of assuming that he is talking in metaphors it has

392
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:14,160
 a section where he wanders around amaze for some time unable to get out which is probably a

393
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:19,920
 metaphorical allegory for his mental state which I thought was quite interesting that we have two

394
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:25,360
 books on the shortlist that have that section is it yeah having read it and going oh this is this

395
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,920
 is just a book full of full of wonders there are so many wonders packed into this level I do

396
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,760
 not know what to think I read reviews as I do and one of them was like this is just a

397
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:38,240
 foundational myth of Buddhism and here is here is how it works and here are all the parallels

398
00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:43,520
 and another review that said hey you know you you people who are lapping this book up you think

399
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:48,240
 this city is so amazing but it is just Colombo and I'm like well there are plenty of people who

400
00:38:48,240 --> 00:38:54,880
 write novels set in London but nevertheless do not manage to catch what is magical about London I

401
00:38:54,880 --> 00:39:00,880
 don't think that's necessarily a problem but so that's one of the things that this this is this

402
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:08,880
 is a myth retelling and some of that tentativeness about Feta's possible destiny is actually matched

403
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,440
 in the story that this is this is building on I thought it was all very good except I don't know

404
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:19,040
 if it completely hangs together as well as it might do I found some of the bits a bit weird it's

405
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:23,440
 got a bit of a first novel feeling it to it it feels like it could have had numerous less elements

406
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:29,200
 in it and still been a fully full novel but I really enjoyed it really liked really liked that

407
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,440
 it tried to do a lot of stuff I like novels that have too much of them that's probably not a

408
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:39,360
 lot of surprise to anyone just listen to this podcast my opinion of this book is that it is

409
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:46,000
 I liked it a lot I think it is a very very good debut novel I think that as Alison says it has

410
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:51,360
 lots of things in it I don't think they quite all care here this is tricky because I don't think I

411
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:57,280
 need my secondary world fantasy to be I don't need to know all the rules and I don't need them to be

412
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:05,280
 explicitly laid out but I do need the rules that are mentioned to intersect with the plot and I found

413
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:11,520
 the central bright doors kind of I wish there I wish they had either been in it more or less I

414
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:16,160
 think I was like vaguely dissatisfied when I got to the end and I was like oh like that was that one

415
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:23,120
 thing that happened and it's like I understand why but you could have told the exact same story

416
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:27,440
 and did not have the doors in it and I'm like the doors are really cool but they're completely

417
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:33,600
 extraneous to the story and I don't know I think you know his second or third novel he will have

418
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:38,000
 really cool things that weave into the texture of the plot he's telling in a way that I think will

419
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:43,520
 enjoy even more and I'm very much looking forward to that novel and it's a very nitpicky criticism

420
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,600
 but I just like I said I got to the end and I just didn't quite feel like it all carehered

421
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:55,600
 in a way that it could have done I also thought the ending was rubbish felt the last two chapters

422
00:40:55,600 --> 00:41:02,400
 felt like an entirely different novel to me and not in a good way it felt very passive and

423
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:10,640
 for a novel based so much in the emotional arc of its main character the disinterest in the main

424
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:17,920
 character shown by the novel in the last stages is genuinely baffling to me oh but I really I mean

425
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:23,040
 I really not knowing this is the foundational myth of Buddhism or not realizing it well enough I

426
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:27,680
 really enjoyed the last two chapters as I thought they really put it together because I thought it

427
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:33,600
 was kind of all about how fetters journey kind of is maybe a little bit passive and he's kind of

428
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:39,920
 earned that right to sort of step away from this defined path to you know you are you have

429
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:45,120
 informed as a weapon to kill your father to to basically go away from all that don't he's waving

430
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:50,560
 his arms at me but I don't think he does step away from it I think I think something else happens

431
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:57,360
 that mean he doesn't that means he doesn't take any active he just sort of drifts and the whole

432
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:03,280
 novel is about him drifting in expectation and I thought what he was realizing at the end of the

433
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:09,600
 novel was that he could have his own path and then at the end it it very much feels like the book

434
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:17,440
 doesn't want to explore that and it didn't not explore it in an interesting way to me yeah I

435
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:22,320
 think I would have to go back and read the last two chapters again but I think it is just I was

436
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:27,360
 reading the same thing and interpreting it in different ways oh yeah that's bad which is nice

437
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:37,200
 you're nice buddha's child referred to as rahula as a feta since it was tied to tied him to the

438
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:43,200
 earthly plane and prevented him from achieving enlightenment or could do that's that's that's

439
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,840
 that's the link yeah I mean I'm aware of that I'm not sure we need to give people a primer on but

440
00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:52,400
 it's mythology indeed because we aren't very much not the people to do that

441
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:59,600
 definitely I would also like to say I think so this is we've called historical fantasy

442
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:06,800
 well we call it the sort of secondary world fantasy of colombo um but it it's not because

443
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:15,440
 this is a city where we have plagues and pandemics and quarantine hotels and he ends up in refugee

444
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:21,440
 camps and giant quarantine camps and so on so it is very much I really like how it kind of straddles

445
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:27,120
 that being a secondary world fantasy but it's like explicitly almost tied into hours I thought

446
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:31,600
 it did a good job of that I don't mean to imply that it's not talking about things that happen in

447
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:37,200
 our world I just meant like it's clearly not set in our world but it does it like you said it does

448
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:41,280
 a very good job of dealing with some of the same stuff that our world has to deal with I did like

449
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:46,560
 that about it yeah I just mean kind of like talked about historical fantasy is one that books on the

450
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:51,760
 shortlist a kind of full secondary world fantasy which as far as I've got does not kind of pull

451
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:58,080
 in anything from our world and this one which is clearly like a mirror of current issues does that

452
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:06,560
 make sense johnson like think he eyes I think it makes sense I don't the reason I think historical

453
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:13,840
 fannet all right this is a genre debate of doom Liz uh strap in oh dear oh dear historical fantasy

454
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:20,800
 is urban fantasy from before the 20th century an urban fantasy is first world fantasy in the 20th

455
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:26,480
 century so historical fantasy is first world fantasy a while back this is secondary world fantasy

456
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,880
 because it's not urban fantasy which is but I don't think I've never thought of secondary world

457
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:35,760
 fantasy as not being able to pull whatever it wants from our world but like this this book is

458
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:42,800
 not set in Yorkshire it's set in Luria uh in a world where the land has literally been reshaped

459
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:50,800
 and it's like but I think that's all I mean by that I never thought of secondary world fantasy as

460
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:57,680
 implying a divide in terms of like the themes you could cover or the bits of our world you could

461
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:02,000
 bring in like I would argue Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn is a secondary world despite the fact

462
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:07,040
 like he imports the industrial revolution does that make sense so it yeah that does make sense

463
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:13,440
 and I mean I think things like Adrian Tricoski's like uh was it House of Open Wounds is also

464
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,440
 clearly bringing in that industrial revolution a fantasy setting and yet I would still say it was

465
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,440
 secondary world fantasy I just think there's something about the Saint-Brite doors that feels

466
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:28,960
 like it is more inflected with our world than a lot of the others are yes I I read this as a

467
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:38,240
 renamed fantasy colombo rather than rather than a city entirely built you know an entirely

468
00:45:38,240 --> 00:45:43,840
 secondary world city that shares that has some features in common with colombo yeah I don't know

469
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,920
 if there's any real difference between those two things I feel there is because I don't agree with

470
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:55,120
 you but I mean it's like if you have a fantasy city and you have a square that's exactly that's

471
00:45:55,120 --> 00:46:00,240
 obviously Trafalgar Square I'd be kind of going oh no this is really just an inflected

472
00:46:00,240 --> 00:46:05,280
 it's an urban fantasy that is an inflected London yeah once again having never been to colombo I

473
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:10,000
 think that's something I have to leave for others to debate how closely this is actually related to

474
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:16,640
 it listeners if you have opinions on genre right in you know we're gonna have we're getting so many

475
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:24,080
 letters at this point to John not to me right to John and tell him it's on a metaphor I maintain

476
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:29,760
 that genre is just vibes this I guess I guess this and that actually it's six what Lizzie is saying

477
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:35,760
 is because what I think what Lizz might be saying is that this has first world fantasy vibes yes I

478
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:44,000
 think maybe yeah I think it's got maybe it's got portal fantasy vibes oh yes like someone has

479
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:51,760
 stepped through a portal from our world through some kind of door maybe maybe the doors are a metaphor

480
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:56,000
 well there was one point what I was reading so I was going oh those doors are actually going to be

481
00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:01,440
 the our world portal doors but they aren't so you know now that'd be way too obvious for this book I think

482
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:18,160
 and the last book is Some Desperate Glory by Emily Tesh this is a book about a teenage girl who is

483
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:26,640
 very angry at a lot of things and she has been raised in a small space station which is very

484
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:34,400
 focused on fostering a sense of community among its residents in a way that makes the people who

485
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:39,680
 run it happy and the way I've described that listeners it may not surprise you to learn that a

486
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:44,480
 objective reading of what is happening will be slightly less wholesome than I made it sound and

487
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:53,440
 she goes on an adventure then a series of things happen none of which I really expected at any

488
00:47:53,440 --> 00:48:01,120
 point now again this is one of my patented very unhelpful things this is future no for future

489
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:06,880
 ochre thoughts we have to stop letting John's summarize novels but it's very funny did you say

490
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,880
 it is funny or it isn't funny I said it's but I find it very funny I think we should let John

491
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:16,080
 do it yeah it is a lot of your jokes I don't find funny but this one I do find quite funny

492
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:24,000
 alternatively we could just let John do all the novel summarizations in future one of those

493
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:33,680
 though I think that might get wearing I think for me this book so this book feels to me like a

494
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:41,840
 rejoinder to Old Man's War in a way and I and other books but especially Old Man's War in that it is

495
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:48,880
 a book that makes you really think about the question but what if we're the bad guys and also

496
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:56,320
 makes you think about very difficult questions of like in some ways it's trolley problem the novel

497
00:48:56,320 --> 00:49:02,400
 and but it does it in a much more interesting way than that description makes it sound and I

498
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:08,960
 I found it absolutely fascinating and very thought-provoking and I enjoyed the heck out of it especially

499
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:14,640
 how angry it made me because I've mentioned that a couple of the other novels here make me angry

500
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:22,480
 with the way that power is abused but in this novel all it made me cross I like you just you get

501
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:27,200
 I just it was so good it was like electrifying I read the whole thing in a state of some

502
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:36,480
 dismay but it was good dismay and I enjoyed it really really a lot good what did you guys think

503
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:43,200
 did you hate it am I wrong no I agree with you hey super good I think it's better than a memory

504
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:48,160
 called Empire I will say I think because I've memory called Empire I mean I assume I've said

505
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:53,040
 this on the podcast but like if not I think it's a masterpiece but I think this is like this is

506
00:49:53,040 --> 00:50:00,720
 one of the best pieces I've read in ages I loved it okay so this novel starts off with a very

507
00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:06,720
 a story you will have read a lot of times before which is somebody who is being trained to be a

508
00:50:06,720 --> 00:50:15,760
 a genius basefaring weapon blaster and immediately subverts that so it starts off

509
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:22,640
 and then it and then you start to gather the tool is not what it seems and and then it

510
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:27,920
 so the the heroine gets off planet and then you discover it's really not what it seems

511
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:34,320
 and then it takes an immense turn to the left because it does it does quite a lot of things

512
00:50:34,320 --> 00:50:38,240
 with structure as well it's just an is an extremely accomplished first novel and I think it's very

513
00:50:38,240 --> 00:50:45,280
 good and I liked it a lot but yes it is you dialogue not merely with Old Man's War which in itself

514
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:50,560
 was trying to pick up some of the themes of classic science fiction but with all those novels of

515
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:55,040
 classic science fiction and I think one of the things that's very good about this book is that if

516
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:59,920
 you've never read any of those novel those classic science fiction novels then then you will start

517
00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:05,520
 eating this up enjoying it and only gradually will you will you gather that that you are being

518
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:10,320
 fed you're being spelled a lie in the same way that the heroine is and I you know it's very very

519
00:51:10,320 --> 00:51:16,640
 good again I'm not 100% certain I it nailed the ending but again first novel what is the more

520
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:22,320
 bi-emily tesh I think we've got a novella we have a novel is it I'll die is it her first

521
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:28,160
 level at all there's an award-winning duology of fantasy novellas bi-emily tesh I believe this

522
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:32,960
 is her first novel yeah there's there's novellas and I think we had them in previous Hugo Pax

523
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:36,960
 when she was up for the astounding and people have been telling me to read tesh for a little while so

524
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:43,520
 sorry guys I had not previously read any Emily tesh it's very good it's a very good book yeah I

525
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:49,120
 don't I don't think either of you've got over kind of just how much ends up being packed into this

526
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:55,760
 novel it is like a yeah this could be five novels yeah I read a lot of mediocre YA novels where like

527
00:51:55,760 --> 00:52:00,880
 you can see how this would be chunked up into a trilogy which is you know Kia the main character

528
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:07,600
 spends the first book coming to the realization that maybe like the society of space vera she has

529
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:12,560
 been raised in is not entirely telling the truth but then it turns out that when they said oh yeah

530
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:17,520
 there's like an AI supercomputer which has decided to destroy the earth that's not allowing

531
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:22,720
 there really is an AI supercomputer which is essentially decided the earth must be destroyed

532
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:30,000
 yeah you know it's it's it's not it's not like everything they have told her it's a lie it's that

533
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,520
 some of the things they have told her a lies but some of the things they have told her are the

534
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:38,480
 truth and she has to decide how she feels about that and so I think it's got a lot to say using

535
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:44,720
 that to jump off about free will and the choices we make and the choices we are forcing to and

536
00:52:44,720 --> 00:52:49,920
 I'm sorry talking about like the first third of the book because there's only 130 000 words so

537
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:55,760
 it's 20 000 words shorter than Amina which is absolutely baffling now I've said out loud and

538
00:52:55,760 --> 00:53:02,160
 the end of part two of the novel so the novel split into five parts and at the end of part two

539
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:08,960
 the reveal there could have like in a lot of stories would have been the end of the first book

540
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:14,000
 and then we would have had to wait for book two so the fact that it was like I could I was not

541
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:20,240
 sure where it was going and because I was expecting the story not to do anywhere near as much as it was

542
00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:27,520
 it was genuinely exciting to me that it went there so quickly and in that way it felt a bit like

543
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:33,040
 the good place where the good place very often made decisions and resolved them a lot more

544
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:39,520
 quickly than you'd expect from the type of thing it was and it was really refreshing because

545
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:44,320
 you meant you never quite certain what they'd do next because they were subverting your expectations

546
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:50,960
 on like a a level of the underlying structure and this does a similar thing the fact it deals with

547
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:59,680
 similar themes and I think looks at those themes in as much if not more detail is just icing on

548
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:07,120
 the incredible cake because I love like it really wants you to think about how your access to

549
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:13,600
 information and your upbringing affect what it is you think is right and how you act and it does

550
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:20,960
 that through showing you and it's not until the very end that it starts putting those pieces together

551
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:26,000
 in a really masterful way as a debut novel I mean I know she's written two novellas so like it's a

552
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:30,560
 little bit cheating for this to be a debut novel because two novellas could be a novel you just cut

553
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:37,840
 it in half in the middle right but it's so good like it's so good very excited very excited to read

554
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:43,360
 more of her stuff um this is the only novel that appears both on the hugo shortlist and the

555
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:49,840
 Clark shortlist which I thought was interesting so Clark judge is liked it it is all three fair

556
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:54,560
 there's three books on this list I would say clearly fantasy so yep and I was not expecting

557
00:54:54,560 --> 00:55:02,000
 the Clark judge just to pick starter villain well I wanted to say is yes more of what John was

558
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:06,880
 saying which is it feels like it is a book like shorter than me and else raffy but managed to do

559
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:11,600
 as much kind of character work as that and cram in a whole load of plot and world building

560
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:17,280
 all into one like it doesn't feel like it takes any time and that's quite it's quite a feat because

561
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:22,080
 your main character that you are dealing with at the start is a terrible person who is going to

562
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:27,840
 have to go through this journey to becoming a less terrible awful person and kind of overcome

563
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:32,640
 the upbringing she's had but it doesn't feel awful to kind of spend this time in her company at the

564
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:37,360
 start which it really easily could have so I think it's also yeah just nicely written in that way

565
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:42,400
 I do like books that paste like novels rather than paste like the first volume of a

566
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:48,240
 n-volume series and I think this novel does that I would not I would certainly not like it as much

567
00:55:48,240 --> 00:55:52,960
 if it'd be spun out into three or four books which it as you say it probably could have been

568
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:56,400
 but I don't think it is paste like a novel and that's what works so well about it I think it's

569
00:55:56,400 --> 00:56:01,840
 paced so much quicker that's what novels are paced like I think you're occluding what makes this

570
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:06,320
 novel special by saying all novels are like this and I don't think that's because I don't think

571
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:11,280
 this would work anywhere near as well if it was true I am saying something savage about the current

572
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:17,600
 state of the genre in that so much of the stuff is massively padded and this one isn't but I think

573
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:25,360
 books historically are not so padded this novel does do this very well okay as well as that and

574
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:31,280
 that is why I will put it at the top of my list have we got to the end of the six novels now

575
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:37,040
 and that was the old thought podcast no we have to do the rankings listeners

576
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:43,520
 who wants to do their ranking first I think this is a good list I think you know there are

577
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,480
 there are a couple of novels that aren't really to our taste but that's not because

578
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:50,960
 they're clearly novels that are to quite a lot of people's taste have John and Liz persuaded me

579
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:55,440
 I think I'm still going to put the same to bright doors top just squeaking out some desperate glory

580
00:56:55,440 --> 00:56:59,040
 I think some desperate glory will probably win I think a lot of people think it's very good and

581
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:04,080
 they are probably right to do that but I think I personally enjoyed said to dry doors a bit more

582
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:11,440
 translation staked third witch king fourth adventures of a meaner al-Sarafi fifth and starter villain

583
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:16,800
 sixth Liz what was your list I previously had the saint of bright doors at the top but I think

584
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:20,400
 now we've just discussed some desperate glory again I might have convinced myself to put with

585
00:57:20,400 --> 00:57:26,800
 the way around it's close isn't it I mean for me I think the thing is the top two are way ahead of

586
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:30,480
 the others because I didn't like translation state quite as much as you guys did so it's

587
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:35,120
 definitely I think some desperate glory and then saint of bright doors those two may change depends

588
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:41,920
 on my mood next time I fill out my ballot then I mean pending pending how much I like witch king

589
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:46,480
 but I think it's probably going to be translation state I mean as of else a ventures of a meaner

590
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:52,480
 al-Sarafi then witch king then starter villain but basically the top two might flip third fourth

591
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:57,120
 and fifth place is might flip around a bit and sixth place is sixth place here are my picks for

592
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:03,040
 this year so we have some desperate glory in first place and then we have translation state

593
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:07,920
 because I do think translation state sticks the ending better than saint of bright doors I'm afraid

594
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:12,960
 which is why it's in third I'll put the witch king above adventures of a meaner al-Sarafi

595
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:18,640
 above star villain that would be my selection the witch king and adventures of meaner al-Sarafi

596
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:24,000
 those two are the closest together for me and what does that make the consensus ranking

597
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:28,240
 I mean I think some guess what glory comes first right because two of us have put it in the top

598
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:33,520
 place and then I think it's probably saint of bright doors next because that's the next highest

599
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:39,040
 for me in al-Sar and then I think it's translation state in third and then I think it's witch king

600
00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:44,560
 and then adventures and then starter villain which I think these none of us have picked the average

601
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:49,360
 octa-thorp listing this time so the first year it was allison the second time it was Liz

602
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:55,760
 this time it's no one one day I will be our fridge listeners but this is not that day and that was

603
00:58:55,760 --> 00:59:08,720
 the octa-thorp podcast and it's goodbye from me it's goodbye from me and it's goodbye from me

604
00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:26,480
 do we want to do things that should have been on there oh no we've gone on frages let's stop there

605
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:31,120
 I mean let's have a conversation about it when we see the long list oh we'll be able to analyze

606
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:35,600
 the long list on sunday night at Glasgow ready to talk about it on the product one day lunchtime

607
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:40,080
 if we get to have a lunchtime slot I'm not sure I want to yeah I can see the peel but I think I

608
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:45,600
 might want to get the pod done before the hugo is possibly anyway the theme music for this episode

609
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:51,360
 was fanfare for space by kevin mccloud in competec.com used under a creative commons

610
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:56,880
 attribution 4.0 license this podcast will end at the beep beep

611
00:59:56,880 --> 01:00:06,880
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