A Korath Lore Document

[ravenshining]

At long last, I'd like to share with everyone the body of Korath lore that I've collected, created, and knit together over the years with everyone's help, compiled into one, hopefully enjoyable to read document, inspired by MZ's own A Brief History of the Galaxy. This 16-page document forms the bulk of Korath background lore that has been guiding a lot of recent developments in my PRs and PR reviews here.

On the Korath

What it does not cover are our future plans for the Korath campaign. I originally put this doc together in order to provide the background the volunteers who've come to me need to draw on in order to start creating that campaign; it's the first step towards setting up those missions. I do have a few of those written and a rough outline of major plot points to hit, but that's a lot more flexible information that risks betraying the confidences of other faction authors I've been working with.

Generally I prefer for Korath development to take place on Swizzle 6, my Discord side-server for ES's more rebellious factions, but I've been encouraged to post it here for people who aren't on Discord or who aren't heavily invested in the Korath.

[MasterOfGrey]

Nice job getting # 7777 - a good number for posterity.

[ravenshining]

I was quite delighted that I was lucky enough to snag it for this to be sure :-)

[Zitchas]

I enjoyed reading the earlier drafts. Looking forward to reading through this again. :)

[Zitchas]

Very good read. As expected, this will make a very good basis for future Remnant-Korath interactions. Which will, eventually, be a bit more complex than "being on shooting-each-other-terms."

[McloughlinGuy]

I enjoyed reading this, it was very well written.

[ravenshining]

At @Arachi-Lover 's suggestion, the bit about the Korsmanathi stealing JDs from the Quarg and reverse-engineering them has been removed. Now, they are merely capturing JDs piecemeal from the Anatruskor and Sestor, and the stealing of Quarg JDs is an in-universe false rumour.

[Arachi-Lover]

Posting here as it was requested by raven.
With #8752 pulling from this document, I must reiterate that this portion of it be changed:

With the Drak being meant as the most powerful species of the Milky Way, and with the Archons being consistently depicted as beings outside the understanding or reach of other species such as the Hai, Wanderers or humans, with only vague guesses as to their nature, but a clear statement that they are somehow not entirely within this reality, the very implication that the Korath could've brought an Archon to truly cease to be seems incongruous and harmful to the Drak's/Archon's place as #1 of the Milky Way in terms of "strength".

I'm not saying the Korath couldn't bring an Archon's HP to 0, I imagine they could do so multiple times, but with the recent changes to both buff the Archon's weapons and the logic in missions to make them simply respawn if killed, what we're going with is that they don't really die when that happens, rather they are warped to someplace or sometime or something unknown, heal, and come back later. The Korath definetly can harm Archons, I am fine with the bit in these files about them doing so and that causing the Archons as a whole to get serious, but them being an actual threat to the Archons, as in permanent threat, being capable of killing one for real, is the problem I mean.

It's also odd that this bit is from the perspective of the Archons, as in them recognizing the Korath as such a potential threat. If it were the Korath thinking that, it'd be reasonable as they'd not know the extent of how it's not as simple to destroy an Archon for good, but it being some manner of consensus of the Archons makes it read very weird to me.

With the WMDs the Korath had, their escalating conflict, and the JDs giving them so much reach, and of course the risk of bringing themselves to extinction, I'm sure the Drak/Archons already had plenty of reasons to intervene already, so I think it'd be best to not have this bit from the Archon's perspective saying the Korath were to have something that could threaten them/take one of them with the Korath.

[Quantumshark]

The Korath being capable of permanently destroying one Archon does not necessarily mean that the Pug or Quarg are. The Pug and Quarg have not invested their resources nor their research into superweapons and mass destruction - if they had, they wouldn't have reached the levels of technology that they posess. The Korath nova bombs don't have a higher-tier equivalent, they're a dead end that essentially guarantees the destruction of the civilisation that creates them. The Pug and Quarg need not be any more capable of killing Archons than the Korath were. Being higher tier does not mean automatically being capable of every single thing that every lower tier faction is capable of and better at everything too, it just means that overall they're more advanced. The Pug and Quarg have focused their efforts on intergalactic travel and ringworld construction respectively, not on superweapon design.

[UnorderedSigh]

I think it would do the Drak a great disservice to say that their most powerful creation survives supernovas just because it is an infinite damage sponge. Nothing more than an unsquishable cockroach. Having an Archon be killable by extraordinary means - that are not extra-universal - means they survived millions of years through superior tactics, knowledge, and power.

[Zitchas]

For a creature that can respawn, and particularly one that considers itself a guardian of the galaxy to preserve life, even "merely" being temporarily vanished so it is forced to recreate/regenerate/repair itself before returning to existance directly threatens its capacity to achieve its purposes, and thus merits concern. After all, so long as it is out of the picture, stuff contrary to its goals could be happening.

As for its "death"... For all we know, the "possibly even taking one of them with them." could refer to killing an archon in a manner similar to killing Dr Who. As in, they promptly respawn, but are in some ways actually a new person. Still have the same key abilities, and most of the same memories, major goals, and some personality traits. But also with new personality elements, different physical capabilities. For all we know the process might be incredibly painful, or that particular Archon's id might actually die, replaced by a new one that shares the same memories, goals, and priorities, but is fundementally a new person.

There are a lot of ways we can reconcile "effectively invincible" with "concern for their own safety when a civilization develops weapons of mass destruction at a stellar level.

I'll also point out that the text cited says nothing about permanently removing an Archon from existence. Merely that there is a risk that it might "take one with it" if caught unawares. The context implies killing, but for an interdimensional being like the Archon, being dragged into a dimensional rift in the weft caused by a superweapon (which would virtually be a guaranteed death for the Korath and the worlds, stars, etc that it happens to), might well be quite literal in meaning "it would take one of them with it to wherever the rift goes, which need not actually be lethaly dangerous to an Archon. It might well just be an inconvenience. They'll be away from their self-assigned duty for a few days or weeks or something. Worse yet, they might not know where they will end up. Maybe there's a chance at getting dumped on the far side of the universe or something. Perfectly alive and intact, but facing an eons-long journey, even with their interdimensional technology, to get back to the Milky Way.

This is sci-fi, and dealing with an extremely advanced faction. There's a lot more opportunities to write interesting stories with extremely advanced beings being inconvenienced in creative way than there is in "nobody can touch them."

[Arachi-Lover]

The Korath being capable of permanently destroying one Archon does not necessarily mean that the Pug or Quarg are. The Pug and Quarg have not invested their resources nor their research into superweapons and mass destruction - if they had, they wouldn't have reached the levels of technology that they posess. The Korath nova bombs don't have a higher-tier equivalent, they're a dead end that essentially guarantees the destruction of the civilisation that creates them. The Pug and Quarg need not be any more capable of killing Archons than the Korath were. Being higher tier does not mean automatically being capable of every single thing that every lower tier faction is capable of and better at everything too, it just means that overall they're more advanced. The Pug and Quarg have focused their efforts on intergalactic travel and ringworld construction respectively, not on superweapon design.

Yes, it does. The Quarg and the Pug have better weapons than the Korath, regardless of their further advancements in other fields. The Pug have managed to break a ringworld. The Quarg were right there on Kuwaru Efreti to observe the whole situation unfold and harbor the Kor Efreti. They absolutely have ideas on how the Korath weapons work, as they speak of how they'll not tell you of said weapons or of what crimes the Korath committed, and because of course they'd be worried about the weapons themselves potentially being used against the ring, with all their paranoia regarding their rings increasing with events such as the Pug breaking the ring, and the Coalition situation, so they'd research the weapons with intent to better guard against them.
Both either have already such powerful weapons or know how to replicate them, and both would do so in a manner more effective than the Korath given they have more tech in general and more resources.

I think it would do the Drak a great disservice to say that their most powerful creation survives supernovas just because it is an infinite damage sponge. Nothing more than an unsquishable cockroach. Having an Archon be killable by extraordinary means - that are not extra-universal - means they survived millions of years through superior tactics, knowledge, and power.

I didn't say that they're meant to survive novas because they're just damage sponges. That's not at all what I said. Where did you get that from? What I've said is that supernovas are supremely boring and lazy a way to kill of Archons. ES posits these beings that are so beyond even potentially the very dimension we're in, but big boom kills them off for good? Really?
Of course they have better of those fields, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't also be above being seriously damaged by things that are comparatively devastating for others. Archons aren't meant to be just big tough ships, that's pretty clear from the game, so just a big strong explosion shouldn't be all it takes to permanently kill one.

For a creature that can respawn, and particularly one that considers itself a guardian of the galaxy to preserve life, even "merely" being temporarily vanished so it is forced to recreate/regenerate/repair itself before returning to existance directly threatens its capacity to achieve its purposes, and thus merits concern. After all, so long as it is out of the picture, stuff contrary to its goals could be happening.

So a point for not having this allusion to them being permanently killed then. Good. Because what I'm concerned about is the implication in the doc that the Korath could take one out for good.

The second paragraph is pure speculation and not really relevant to the point that is being made, that the Korath shouldn't have the capability to permanently kill off an Archon. I don't really care for this argument what is the process for the respawn of an Archon.

There are a lot of ways we can reconcile "effectively invincible" with "concern for their own safety when a civilization develops weapons of mass destruction at a stellar level.

And loring it that the Korath could permanently kill an Archon is not a good way to go about it. The Korath, prime or not, are not in a position to pose a permanent threat to Archons.

I'll also point out that the text cited says nothing about permanently removing an Archon from existence. Merely that there is a risk that it might "take one with it" if caught unawares. The context implies killing, but for an interdimensional being like the Archon, being dragged into a dimensional rift in the weft caused by a superweapon (which would virtually be a guaranteed death for the Korath and the worlds, stars, etc that it happens to), might well be quite literal in meaning "it would take one of them with it to wherever the rift goes, which need not actually be lethaly dangerous to an Archon. It might well just be an inconvenience. They'll be away from their self-assigned duty for a few days or weeks or something. Worse yet, they might not know where they will end up. Maybe there's a chance at getting dumped on the far side of the universe or something. Perfectly alive and intact, but facing an eons-long journey, even with their interdimensional technology, to get back to the Milky Way.

This really looks like reaching a lot with speculation to try and distance the text from the clearly intended meaning.
"They [the Archons] believed the Korath were on the verge of driving themselves extinct [read: a permanent end to the species], possibly even taking an Archon with them [towards such a permanent end] if they weren't careful"
That definetly spells the permanent end/death of an Archon. It's not by implication, it is pretty clearly explicit.

This is sci-fi, and dealing with an extremely advanced faction. There's a lot more opportunities to write interesting stories with extremely advanced beings being inconvenienced in creative way than there is in "nobody can touch them."

And I haven't at all suggested that "nobody can touch them", in fact I've repeatedly pointed to the two factions where it'd be appropriate enough for this kind of idea to blossom, the Quarg and the Pug. Both have their own meta and lore reasons as to why that wouldn't just happen overnight, if at all, so the ideas would not necessarily be followed or reflected anytime soon, but I pointed to those clearly as two factions where it'd be good usages of showing the potential ways or possibilities of bringing about the definitive death of an Archon, with some more sophisticated, advanced tech fitting to such high tier factions.

Again, I never suggested the Archons be "completely invincible" or that "nobody can touch them", I'm being pretty specific in this context, talking about the Korath and that the Korath specifically should not have these capabilities.
With that said, before you discuss any further @Zitchas I ask that you please refrain from misrepresenting what I've said because I've had quite enough of that in the Discord and other platforms in the past, so I would appreciate if you avoided doing that.

[warp-core]

Eh, it already puts the primary focus on preventing extinction, concern about whether it is possible, however unlikely, that the Korath may accidentally exploit a weakess and destroy an archon along with their entire species, is secondary.

It probably shouldn't be a concern at all.

Including this as part of the Archons' motivation in acting at all makes it not entirely a matter of preventing the Korath from going extinct but instead preventing the Korath from harming an Archon, doing so just happens to also take away their means of eliminating themselves. The fact that they were so close to wiping themselves out alone is enough. It demonstrates that they've taken something away from the Sheragi wiping themselves out (where they don't seem to have done anything.) Adding that they were themselves at risk only muddies that. Would they have acted to save the Sheragi if one of any Archon was at risk?

The argument that it wouldn't actually mean a permanent end for an Archon seems in complete opposition to the statement being discussed, that is: "[The Archons] believed the Korath were on the verge of driving themselves extinct, possibly even taking an Archon with them if [the Archons] weren't careful."
The word "extinct" is pretty unambiguous. You cannot take something with you to extinction and then have it survive.

[ravenshining]

Fixed some minor grammar issues, and narrowed down the invention of the Jump drive from 1000 AD (give or take a few centuries) to 900 AD (give or take a few decades) to facilitate some upcoming content by @UnorderedSigh

[ravenshining]

I have been encouraged to point out that MZ, Zitchas, and UnorderedSigh have comment access directly to the doc. I personally do not have time to engage in long discussions at this time, but if a consensus is reached and they point it out in the doc itself, I will be more likely to notice and implement changes. Please do not pressure them to make such comments before that consensus is reached.

[UnorderedSigh]

I've suggested a change to the Korath lore document. It is a new section describing the Korath exile.

You can find just the new section in this document:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/18McvR7yLVwOUQOq7Yma28gsMveK7BAg7aaIwBxYi7iQ/edit

Or scroll to page 12 of the main Korath lore document, while viewing suggested changes. (It is the whole of page 12.)

EDIT: I rewrote my new additions after some feedback.

EDIT 2: There used to be a lot more in this post, but I think people were responding to the post without reading the document. (Also, the stuff that was here is now mostly untrue because of the rewrite.)

[Arachi-Lover]

Either the Drak did state it, or they did not. This is a lore document, not the game txt itself.

Then this is something that shouldn't ever explicitally be made clear, even in the lore document. There is great value in having something truly ambiguous in a story, and this I see as one such case..

[UnorderedSigh]

I think Far'en Lai is the prime candidate to have much of the core Korath Exile campaign revolve around, and frankly it would be a waste not to utilize it and not provide a payoff to the idea of the planet being brought to fruition, or the failure to do so.

This is a mischaracterization. Obviously, Far'en Lai will be central to the campaign. However, even if it needs to be terraformed, that is only the smallest problem.

The Korath are destroyers, even in the current state of the game. If they settle before they regain self-control, they will ruin the planet. Before they can use any newly terraformed planet, they need to re-learn self control.

[UnorderedSigh]

@Arachi-Lover - Based on feedback from you and Swizzle6, I've rewritten my new section. How does it look now?

[ravenshining]

Thank you for the addition! I have added, credited, read, and edited it. Mostly just for style, but I made a few small changes (also detailed on Discord)

• added mention that new factions derived from uncertainty over Drak terms
• Korath have some very efficient farming methods, otherwise they'd never have survived in space for so long, even if they are slowly starving over many generations. However, it's entirely possible that the methods they carried over from their home territory were not easily compatible with the particulars of Far'en Lai's ecosystem. So, I have added some qualifying language and rewritten a sentence to read,

Its lack of dense foliage makes for an abundance of arable land, but Korath farming methods appeared incompatible with the planet’s conditions.

• If the Korath have learned that fighting each other is abhorrent (questionable), they certainly haven't all learned it's not okay with other species (such as between the Alaji and Remnant), and I don't want to rule out future conflict. Accordingly I have inserted a "their:"

Korath now understood the pointlessness of their war

Any further edits, drop me another line :-) And who knows, I might actually have some time on my hands in the next couple months.

[Arachi-Lover]

No, the Drak killing the exiles for messing up Far'en Lai would make no sense at all. The loss of Far'en Lai is the end of the Exiles since it is their last home. The Drak threatening to kill the Korath might make sense. Actually following through is pointless violence. The Archons have never shown an interest in being seen as mindless killers.

I still think it'd make sense to have the threat idea. It might not even have been a threat, but a warning, rather than "if Far'en Lai dies, we'll kill you" it being "if Far'en Lai dies, you're all doomed", which could be interpreted as the former still, but might've been meant as "if you can't make it right this time, you're certain to drive yourselves dead".

This is a mischaracterization. Obviously, Far'en Lai will be central to the campaign. However, even if it needs to be terraformed, that is only the smallest problem.

Sorry in that case, the text just had me with the impression that Far'en Lai and its terraforming flourish/wither away scenario was being sidelined/dropped.

[UnorderedSigh]

A great many revisions by a great many people on Swizzle6 have constructed this message from the Archons to the Korath when the Exile began:

Destroyers of worlds: Hear our words and heed them.
Contemplate your Exile in galactic wastelands with dead stars.
Witness a living world testing your resolve to coexist.
Destroy it, and you destroy yourselves.
Seek kinship for liberation.

I've added a suggested change to the lore document with this message.

To those who don't understand the meaning, here is an early draft of the new Far'en Lai description:

(The lore document does not mention the Korath asking for liberation.)

[ravenshining]

Added, with one last minute edit:

Destroyers of worlds: Hear our words and heed them.
Contemplate Exile in galactic wastelands, meditate among dead stars.
Witness a living world testing your resolve to coexist.
Destroy it, and you destroy yourselves.
Seek kinship for liberation.

[UnorderedSigh]

Looks okay.

[UnorderedSigh]

With help from @The-Legendary-M I now have the Korath Language Family write-up. It's in a suggested change. This Google Doc has just the new content, with world comment privileges:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13M3WfJDaKUUeABnuM-8-f8ryYBWCRylMX5JKGftWGa4/edit

Or, you can scroll to page 17 of the main document and find it there. This link should send you to the right spot, more or less:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1875bt5lLh4GH_TE_9EsoAvwwk0DPJnLkVt-ztTvfv1g/edit?disco=AAAA8arP6XI

[ravenshining]

Added & edited!

(just minor edits here and there, nothing substatial)

[UnorderedSigh]

Another collaboration with @The-Legendary-M, I have the lore for the Modern Efreti. It is in a suggested chnage. This Google Doc has only the new content, with world comment privileges:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_cOTelyFtxgiH3DQI9DWHZO73K46WR1tpBtl78rb8-s/edit

You can find the suggested change just after the "Exile" section. This link should send you to it:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1875bt5lLh4GH_TE_9EsoAvwwk0DPJnLkVt-ztTvfv1g/edit#heading=h.3c0ciguef4c1

[UnorderedSigh]

Not as I see it, but as it is presented in the game. Here, displays of things such as the Efreti displaying they're prideful or that they definetly do still try, 0 lines were written by me:

I tried to show they retain pride and honor, but I may not have emphasized that enough. Please let me know.

Edit: Depression does not preclude pride and honor. They have all three.

[UnorderedSigh]

I read that first link fully, which was preceded by This Google Doc has only the new content, with world comment privileges: which to me implies the suggested changes to the full doc mean including all that is in the first link, but in the middle of all the rest of the Korath document.

Indeed. In the future, I'll separate the justification/Q&A/FAQ into a separate document than the suggested changes.

[ravenshining]

Depression does not preclude pride and honor. They have all three.

This exactly. Sometimes, depression even feeds demonstrations of pride and honour. When you feel like you've lost yourself, you may try to prove to others you are something, in the hopes that you might gain it. Or you might cling to something outwardly audacious, because that's all you have.

[ravenshining]

Now that I've had a chance to read this, and the previous draft over: Overall this is great work, I love what you and M have come up with, but I think Arachi raises some valid concerns that still need addressing, and I have a few minor ones of my own. There's also a bit of repetitive or unnecessary language in spots, but I wouldn't worry about that too much if you don't mind my condensing things once I add this.

Like Arachi, I would like to see some more mention or prominence of the pride and honour they uphold in dealing with outsiders. However, as I philosophised on yesterday, I see this partially as cover for their insecurites. It is an inherent and possibly admirable trait common to them and the Exiles, but at the same time, in order to cover for their poverty and internal issues, they must show to outsiders what strength they can, where they can.

Armed with new beliefs and unity, the starving Efreti entered a golden age of innovation. They produced gadgets with all kinds of functions, ranging from miraculous to “design just for the sake of design.” This inventive spirit led to advanced engines, ships, transportation, and physical infrastructure. Efreti-produced goods are generally high quality, but are expensive. Mineral and organic resources were limited, so they developed spectacular recycling technology.

This seems far too glowing a way to describe things. Necessity is the mother of invention, and the Efreti have need in spades. Not only that, but they have strict limits on what they are and are not allowed to research, further forcing them to branch out in these ways..

all because they took in the warring Sestor and Mereti who agreed to the Drak ultimatum.

Perhaps this can be expanded a bit. It's not only the Sestor and Mereti whose pride was broken they have taken in, it's the absolutely devastated Korsmanathi, their own pain from their own losses and part in the war, the restrictions they have on technological research and progress, 200 years of mass starvation slashing though their population. More recently, the collapse of their Anatruskor neighbours, still in living memory for some elders and still fresh in feather-memory, may seem a harbinger of doom.

All the paragraphs describing what I can only perceive as an insane, unjustifiable focus on form over function are frankly just not something I'd buy ever, there is no amount of suspension of disbelief that can make it sit well that a group in such harsh conditions like those of the Efreti would deliberately go out of their way to make use of what little resources they have in such poor fashion so explicitly.

Art is a wonderful balm for the spirit, a worthwhile way to bring joy to a joyless existence. I've "wasted" money on things that are not "efficient," when I've lacked a roof over my head or food to eat, because it kept me alive, giving me light in the bleakest of times. How much moreso must the Korath, with their existential imperative for self expression, find it so essential?

They salvage what they can among the ruins, and seek out worlds where they may one day live again. For the young, this gives them hope, but sometimes they are caught, and the Efreti are reminded why they live crushed together around these few stars."

Interesting this is brought up as an example of "hope." I see this as an excellent example of how hope is crushed.

[UnorderedSigh]

I rewrote it again. The Efreti justifiably suffer from crushing depression but compensate with honor and pride.

[Arachi-Lover]

This exactly. Sometimes, depression even feeds demonstrations of pride and honour. When you feel like you've lost yourself, you may try to prove to others you are something, in the hopes that you might gain it. Or you might cling to something outwardly audacious, because that's all you have.

I rewrote it again. The Efreti justifiably suffer from crushing depression but compensate with honor and pride.

While it is reasonable that the dire situation they're in would make the overall outlook bleak, the Korath are a spacefaring species/civilization tens of thousands of years old. This pride and honor culture of theirs is a trait either inherent or developed over their many dozen millennia of not being in this situation.
As that's what would bring this bleak look on their status, the fact that it's a situation they find themselves in.

In short, the pride/honor is a trait of the Korath, whereas the depressive state of Efreti and even Exile society are situational, they are the situations they find themselves in. It may get better or it may get worse, but the situational should not overshadow the traits of pride and honor.

Art is a wonderful balm for the spirit, a worthwhile way to bring joy to a joyless existence. I've "wasted" money on things that are not "efficient," when I've lacked a roof over my head or food to eat, because it kept me alive, giving me light in the bleakest of times. How much moreso must the Korath, with their existential imperative for self expression, find it so essential?

If you choose to do that in such cases then you choose to do that. But an entire society focusing on that when it is far from a good choice given their situation, resources and what they know? No, that'd be very uncharitable to the Korath to say the entire Efreti civilization chooses to be so horribly inneficient simply to provide some more means of comfort when they'd be fully aware of how poor a choice that is.

[UnorderedSigh]

reeeally don't think the korath feathers are at all necessary to drive plot forward

The feathers don't drive the plot of the campaign forward. In the not-yet-released campaign intro, they aren't relevant to the intro at all. The "fish and feathers" story uses it as a plot device in one mission to demonstrate the Korath are capable of empathy, kindness, and loyalty, even without the use of feathers. Capable both as a race and as individuals.

They're one of several traits used to explain Korath past actions based on their culture and neurology.

EDIT: Didn't mean to type "physiologically" in the second paragraph. Word is now removed.

EDIT2: A few words were wrong in the first paragraph. The "fish and feathers" story establishes that the Exiles don't need feather trades to establish empathy, kindness, and loyalty. Although it is an "emotional crutch" the Exiles rely on, they don't need it if the mood suits them.

[UnorderedSigh]

They just need to be shown that Far'en Lai is more than just sacred grounds, it's where they can regrow their struggling civilization.

The Korath aren't stupid. They know they could regrow their struggling civilization on Far'en Lai. It's implausible that they'd survive for tens of thousands of years as an interstellar civilization without terraforming abilities.

If they aren't settling, there's another reason.

Let's continue down the "Korath aren't stupid" line of reasoning. They spent a few hundred years blowing up their civilization. Perhaps they realize that they'll blow up their civilization if they try to settle Far'en Lai?

[ravenshining]

I am not particularly interested in talking with anyone even remotely in an adversarial or oppositional position to me, in private. Bad, bad experiences in the past.

I can appreciate that. Unfortunately, I've had quite the opposite experience - trying to hash things out in public leading to dogpiling and/or hostility until either mods step in or important people leave, to the point where I feel like someone wanting to keep things in public view only wants to string me up for the amusement of others or sabotage my efforts.

On the other hand, when I speak with people one-on-one, I usually get much better results in terms of achieving calm and respect. No one watching to prove things to, no one to overhear personal things that aren't for everyone, just focused and honest conversation.

If we must continue here, please -- and this goes for everyone, I am not saying you are guilty of all these things: Avoid aggressive language, hyperbole, textwalls, pedantry, personal attacks, presumption, and quotes out of context. Respect requests to cease or de-escalate. Keep things calm and to the point. If the same arguement gets passed back and forth multiple times, step away and reconsider. If you catch yourself, use the edit feature. I feel like these are basic rules of public discourse that shouldn't need stating, but here we are.

[ravenshining]

Manic, a human psychologist might say.

Manic depression would be another viable lens with which to try and frame the actions of the Korath in a way that's relatable. You've got basically the same idea as I have, just, I chose a similar, less well-known real life lens, one that I have some expertise in that -- in my biased opinion -- I happen to believe fits them better. You are... perhaps, not alone in considering people with such features "childish," but to say they would be incapable of functioning as a spacefaring civilisation, even without the little handicaps I've written in, would not be an accurate assessment, and is a great disservice to those from whom I have taken real-life inspiration.

I do not, however, feel comfortable talking about what that lens is or the nature of my expertise in a public forum. Four people besides myself currently have all the details. I could, perhaps, be persuaded to talk about them with the ~20 or so members of my confidential Korath section and/or the dev team, but it's definitely not a public matter.

[ravenshining]

(The point being there is some early-space-era stuff I would personally like to explore, korath-wise, which could lead to conventions or fodder for flavor text here and there.)

Can you elaborate on this? Not to say I'm not open to change, but, if instead of focusing on the negatives, we can focus on what you would like to see, complimentarily to the work we have already done, I think we can be more productive and inclusive :-)

[ziproot]

Posting with permission from UnorderedSigh,as she mentioned that Arachi has blocked this discussion thread and so tensions are not as bad as they were before.

After looking at the Korath Efreti, unlike some others, I actually don't see too much of a problem. The conformity aspect was something I likened to modern day Japan, and this was confirmed by Unordered on Swizzle 6. The lack of long term planning is an issue that humanity has as well (just see how well we are doing with rapid climate change), and is something that took the Hai a long time to learn.

However, what I do have a problem with is the combination of the community-based conformity and the individuality-based self dependence and not expecting help from others. I can see why the latter was included, based on Arachi's snippets of in game lore where the Korath Efreti refuse help from Wanderers. However, there is still a difference between refusing help from foreigners and refusing help altogether, especially if the latter is something that is incompatible with being Korath.

Considering Unordered has mentioned not liking this version of the lore too much, I propose modifying the section on refusing help to only be related to foreigners. This still explains the history with the Hai-Korath relations, and the Efreti-Wanderer relations, and it still provides tension in the form of conformity and having to think long-term.

Thoughts?

EDIT: FerociousFiend did not provide snippets, only Arachi.

[Arachi-Lover]

Posting with permission from UnorderedSigh, as she mentioned that Arachi has blocked this discussion thread and so tensions are not as bad as they were before.

I never blocked this thread. I never blocked anyone on GitHub. I had been blocked by ravenshining here on GitHub ~2 months ago, and so that prevented me from posting comments/replying to anything she posted, this discussion included. It seems I am able of posting here again at the moment.

[ziproot]

I think I misread the comment. That's on me. Thank you for correcting.

[UnorderedSigh]

Only the Raven can unblock Arachi, so that means she decided to let him back. The only blocks I know of were the Raven blocking Arachi on github and Arachi blocking the Raven and I on Discord. I've mostly been avoiding all of this toxicity as I'm on a strict no drama regimen. I'm glad Arachi is able to post again.

Sorry for the miscommunication.

[Arachi-Lover]

I unblocked you both on Discord once I noticed I had been unblocked here.
Let's hope this is the last time a reason-less block on the GitHub happens.

[Arachi-Lover]

Seeing as this hasn't been altered yet, I'll reiterate the need to change this part of the doc, since if the intent is for the Korath campaign to be based on it, then it shouldn't contain statements like this one which drastically alter the balance and relation of power between the various factions intended for Endless Sky, as well as the unnecessary nature of such a statement to begin with, as explained by me and others here.

[ziproot]

It looks like @warp-core also wants this changed, but I'm not warp core so I can't confirm or deny this for certain.

[Zitchas]

I currently see no reason to change this. It seems quite appropriate and fitting to the story. I'm open to arguments either way; but as things stand right now, I think it fits and should remain as-is.

I don't consider this as giving the Korath the intentional ability to deliberately take out an Archon; but rather the Archons speculating that - if they were sufficiently unlucky, the Korath might trigger just the wrong (or right, depending) series of cascading factors that might lead to such an eventuality.

Something along the lines of how someone randomly swinging a BB gun around and firing it off at an odd angle might just happen to go off at just the wrong angle and catch just the wrong wiff of wind to hit just the right wire at just the right time to make a spark and blow up a gas tank 200m away that the shooter didn't even know existed, much less where it was, and that killed someone. Unlikely? Definitely. Almost impossible, but not actually impossible.

Archons are sufficiently aware of the way things work that they are aware that this could happen, and exactly how it could go wrong, and they can mitigate it before it has the chance to happen. Sure, they're taking action to ensure a 1 in a 10e1000000000 event becomes an actual 0 and not just an extreme unlikelyhood, but, so what? They're very cautious and aware. We already know this.

[MasterOfGrey]

My issue is generally that we're giving voice to the archons in a lore document for another species entirely. It just feels unnecessarily out of scope.

Having said that, Z isn't wrong with his point; the archons are few in number, wholly unique, and wholly irreplaceable.
Attrition happens when you cease to be vigilant against the potential of danger.
Being incredibly risk averse for anything that even has the potential to maybe pose a threat to them, would be in-character for them.

I'm just not sure that any of that needs to be explored here.

[Arachi-Lover]

The issue is that the Korath are not a faction that we should consider as having the ability to permanently eliminate an Archon. The Drak are supposed to be the most powerful faction of the Milky Way. They're meant to be above everyone else of our galaxy. Archons are very clearly not just some foot soldiers of the Drak, as they're spoken about with reverence and with hints of abilities or being of a nature not understood by any of the factions that reference them so far (humans with Albert Foster's comments, the Hai with the Unfettered talk, the Wanderers when speaking of the Archon that visited them upon reaching Korath space, the Pug when asked if they'll help the Wanderers in Korath space).

Archons are, by extension, the only representatives of the Drak we have so far in the game. Whether that changes or not, it is not appropriate to base content on a document that paints an image diminishing the intended state of the Drak as most powerful of the Milky Way. The main problem with the Korath having this possibility implied is that, as I said before, it automatically diminishes the Drak, as we know that both the Quarg and the Pug possess more advanced technology than the Korath, and at least in the case of the Quarg we know they have orders of magnitude better production capabilities for such more advanced weapons, with the ringworlds.

Furthermore, the statement is unnecessary. There are already plenty of reasons for the Archons to intervene on the Korath situation. This if anything makes them seem more selfish/petty, acting out when there's a risk to them as opposed to recognizing the rist of extinction of the Korath.

As for the argument about the possibility being very low, that as I see it has two problems: First, we still have the problem where the intended power dynamic of Endless Sky, where the Drak are the most powerful species of the Milky Way, is compromised. It doesn't matter if the odds of it actually happenig are 1 in a googolplex, for the possibility was mentioned, meaning you've thrown around the idea that maybe just about anyone can truly end an Archon, if such subatomic possibilities are to be taken seriously. It feels entirely unwarranted to mention this at all, as per reasons above, but especially if the argument is that it's such a low possibility.
Second, it conflicts with what we know of the Drak/Archon modus operandi, for we know they don't just intervene at the slightest hint of a possibility of maybe a species going extinct. They didn't show up on Earth when we developed nukes. They waited until very late on in the Korath war to interfere. If we paint it that they act out on such low odds when it's they who are at risk, we again run into the selfish/petty situation.

In summary, I don't see the benefit of having this statement in at all, as it unequivocally harms the intended image for the Drak, at no foreseeable benefit other than to serve as some hype tool for the Korath, when again the Korath do not need that as they're already extremely competent in their achievements, being the exception to the norm of developing Jump Drives. Remember, the Korath developed Jump Drives. The Quarg were given theirs. The Korath already have a tremendous achievement. They don't need to have "maybe they could kill Archons for good" as well.

This all boils down to this statement being from the perspective of the Archons. That is the problem. The Archons recognizing this risk brings about all of these problems. As I've said before, I would see no issue if this were from the POV of a Korath from whatever side of the war, thinking of maybe being very close to some miracle weapon that could not only win them the war but also give them an edge over the factions that held more power than them in military terms.
This would all be speculation of an obviously biased Korath POV, and would be easily discredited when the Archon intervention does what it does.

As long as the statement remains from the POV of the Archons, however, that section of the document brings a lot of negative impact to ES lore, with seemingly no benefits.

[ziproot]

Sure, although that is also fundementally (sic) implicit in our game

This is a lore document, not an in-game conversation. If the Drak are wrong here, I think that the lore document should say so. However, that misses the other point, namely that the Drak shouldn't be using that as a reason to intervene.

EDIT: Basically, I was thinking something along the lines of "They believed the Korath were on the verge of driving themselves extinct. Additionally, while the Korath were unable to significantly injure an Archon, and the Archons were very confident in this, out of an abundance of caution the Archons operated under the worst case scenario that they could be wrong, and a supernova bomb explosion at the wrong place and wrong time could cause them significant damage."

However, my issue with that is that the only reason for intervening should be the Korath being on the verge of going extinct, not anything that could injure the Archons.

EDIT 2: From warp core:

It probably shouldn't be a concern at all.

Including [the possibility of significantly injuring an Archon] as part of the Archons' motivation in acting at all makes it not entirely a matter of preventing the Korath from going extinct but instead preventing the Korath from harming an Archon, doing so just happens to also take away their means of eliminating themselves. The fact that they were so close to wiping themselves out alone is enough. It demonstrates that they've taken something away from the Sheragi wiping themselves out (where they don't seem to have done anything.) Adding that they were themselves at risk only muddies that. Would they have acted to save the Sheragi if one of any Archon was at risk?

[MasterOfGrey]

I'm gonna have to side with Arachi and Warp here - not because there's anything wrong with Z's reasoning, but because it does muddy a narrative that simply doesn't need muddying.

The Drak, having learned from the Sheragi, intervene to prevent the Korath from self-annihilation when they recognise all the same signs.

That is a clean-cut backdrop.
And the Korath story is going to be messy. Any survival-oriented story is messy, with factions, and politics, and often betrayal.
When the story is inevitably going to be messy, a clean backdrop is often all the better for the contrast it provides.

Now it would be fun for narrative/lore to explore all of the Korath's theories about the intervention, but all of that's on the Korath side.
As it is, it just distracts from the rest of it.
The validity of the lore is secondary to the tools of the narrative here.

[alexrovw]

I'll be brief here; I think more than enough digital ink has been spilled about one sentence in a lore document that isn't even directly being added into the game.

Drak aren't gods, but see Shermer's Last Law:

Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God.

They're close enough. At present, the Drak/Archons exist as a plot device representing insurmountable power. It wouldn't do to mess with that element in an unrelated storyline. If we want to explore the Drak's limits and bring them back down to Earth (so to speak), that merits its own discussion hopefully vis-a-vis some substantive change to their lore in the game. It shouldn't be decided in a single sentence in a Korath lore document.

In conclusion, I think the statement should be removed, but I ultimately also don't think it's worth fighting over. More to the point, why even fight to keep it in? It's not like it's integral to the Korath lore.

[ravenshining]

I am simply never going to read such a textwall as was posted further above, and have no desire to think about such controversial topics at all. The document set of guidelines presented in narrative form, and if things get fudged a little when it comes to actual implementation, so be it. UnorderedSigh after all is departing from my intentions for how to paint the Korath society in certain ways, but since she's been doing the work, I don't care. I've had enough conflict with ES and rather regret even being pulled back to see this after not checking my notifications for three months.

Technically, MZ and Zitchas have edit access, and could in theory change whatever they please. Saugia and Unordered Sigh can add as many comments as they want. Not that I think that will ever happen, but it's there.

[Zitchas]

Care for self first. I'm glad to have you around, but you don't need to hang out anywhere that generates conflict.