China Helix Bomb is rarely used

[xezon]

China Helix Bomb is rarely used.

Proposal 1

• Remove initial cooldown for Helix Napalm/Nuke bomb? #991

Proposal 2 APPLIED

China Helix with Nuke Bomb deals much less damage than China Helix with Napalm Bomb. Increase Nuke Bomb damage.

Done with

• Change: Increase Nuke Bomb damage from 300 to 400, decrease secondary damage from 50 to 20 #1540

Proposal 3

Reduce cost from 800.

Proposal 4

Remove/Reduce stand still requirement for bomb drop to increase hit chance.

Proposal 5

Increase bomb drop velocity to increase hit chance.

Proposal 6

Make Helix Bomb an Upgrade from China Airfield, just like the USA Rocket Pods is an Upgrade on USA Airfield. This also solves Command Set issue highlighted here:

• Fix Helix Commandset #1532

[ImTimK]

Oh wow, it would be socool if the Lix could fly by and drop bombs, though might be little OP and feel mod'ish.

[xezon]

Stubbjax

Definitely agree with this. It would be nice to see the bombs used more / at all. Innovative manoeuvres like waiting above a tunnel for a pop and then dropping a bomb - which happens maybe once every five years - would become a bit more viable and surely provide some additional strategic depth as well as excitement for observers / viewers.

It might also make sense to drop the price somewhat, perhaps from $800 to $500, due to the significantly heightened risk / vulnerability that accompanies their use. It's a tricky design because the bombs are most effective against large groups, but a large group often has some form of anti-air capability that is likely to turn the whole situation into a suicide mission. This is amplified by the clunky behaviour where the Helix has to stop directly above the target location for the ability to function.

It would be interesting if the bombs could be dropped earlier before the target by inheriting some momentum, similarly to how carpet bomb trajectories appear to function. Such a change would make the behaviour feel more fluid and natural, as well as open up potential for more skilled usage by using the Helix's velocity to modify bomb trajectory.

Otherwise, a simple increase to the bomb's velocity so that it falls through the air faster would be an improvement. In its current form, it's far too easy for the opponent to dodge the bomb and completely avoid any harm, which makes the ability much harder to justify.

[xezon]

My thought on this:

Proposal 1:
Yes

Proposal 2:
Yes, investigate, look at numbers, decide corrective action if necessary.

Proposal 3:
It is very expensive indeed, especially when compared with Comanche Rocket Pod upgrade. A reduction in price can help make it more attractive.

Proposal 4:
The way this would work is make it drop bomb on trigger ability, just like the Bomb Truck has a "Detonate Now" ability. So the orange Bomb target marker would be removed from the game. It certainly would be unlike the original.

Proposal 5.
Maybe. Would have to inspect drop speed. From memory, it looked fine, but maybe small tweak can optimize it to scrape of just a few frames without noticable difference. This would be way less obvious than Proposal 4.

[Stubbjax]

Regarding proposal 4, I tested the ability with an UnpackTime of 0 and the behaviour felt far more natural / responsive / fluid. This change alone would allow a skilled player to drop the bomb while effectively maintaining speed, if timed correctly. It's also a relatively subtle change that I wouldn't expect most players to notice. (It would also be nice to assign a TriggerSound for extra feedback.)

NAPALM_BOMB.mp4

I recommend giving it a go and seeing how it feels. It can always be dialed back to a more conservative value.

Old:

Object ChinaVehicleHelix
  Behavior = SpecialAbilityUpdate ModuleTag_33
    UnpackTime = 500
  End
End

New:

Object ChinaVehicleHelix
  Behavior = SpecialAbilityUpdate ModuleTag_33
    UnpackTime = 0
    TriggerSound = DaisyCutterWeapon
  End
End

[xezon]

Dang. Looks good. Can we get a comparison to original how most fluid move would look there?

[ImTimK]

Super awesome, basically the same as a "drop now!" feature indeed, however microed with the original mechanics. I think that's a really acceptable implementation.

[commy2]

Very nice, Stubbjax. Should double check how this sound works if multiple Helix are dropping bombs at once. Might need some tweaks in the sounds ini file.

[MTKing4]

Looks Awesome, definitely needed

[Stubbjax]

Here's footage of the original behaviour under perfect conditions.

NAPALM_BOMB_2.mp4

The problem with the original behaviour is not only the 500ms delay, but the resulting need to wait for visual confirmation of the bomb drop before giving the next move order (there is a high risk of accidentally aborting the drop by moving too soon). Essentially, players currently need to wait for the bomb command network delay (if already in range) + 500ms + player reaction time + move order network delay.

In the above footage, I reacted in ~3 frames to seeing the bomb and the game took a further 10 frames to process the subsequent move command, which results in a subtle yet notable difference. This delay is obviously much more pronounced when higher network latencies are involved. It definitely feels a lot nicer to use without the delay.

Very nice, Stubbjax. Should double check how this sound works if multiple Helix are dropping bombs at once. Might need some tweaks in the sounds ini file.

Good thinking. I tried increasing the respective audio event's Limit from 3 to 10 and it sounds great. Does this sound reasonable? I also noticed the HelixNapalmBombVoiceCreate and OverlordExpansion sounds could do with some limits as well after upgrading 30 Helixes at once.

[xezon]

Doesn't Limit say how many sound instances can play simultaneously?

[commy2]

I also noticed the HelixNapalmBombVoiceCreate and OverlordExpansion sounds could do with some limits as well after upgrading 30 Helixes at once.

Yeah, but that can be a different pull request. Another candidate is Bomb Truck upgrades.

Doesn't Limit say how many sound instances can play simultaneously?

Pretty sure that is exactly what it is for, yes.

Good thinking. I tried increasing the respective audio event's Limit from 3 to 10 and it sounds great. Does this sound reasonable?

Probably should be a different sound effect that links to the same file. Another option is to pitch shift it, to make it noticably different from a Carpet Bomber, which iirc uses the same effect.

[penfriendz]

Can we make helix bomb a global upgrade perhaps?

[Stubbjax]

You'll need to provide some very convincing arguments to support such a controversial shift in design.

[penfriendz]

Rocket pods are a global upgrade and are far easier to use en-masse than even the redesigned helix. Probably far more impactful too no matter how you adjust it.

While this alone doesn't mean that China should have it as a global upgrade, it is a useful comparison and some food for thought.

[xezon]

It's true that the Helix and Overlord have some of the most expensive Upgrades. Changing local to global update is quite drastic change though. Adjusting local upgrade price should help too, but certainly is no comparison to global upgrade cheapness, especially when many units can benefit from the one time purchase.

[ImTimK]

@penfriendz

You are certainly right that Rocket Pods are INSANELY cost efficient, it's food for thought indeed.

• The same investment of $800 upgrades 1 Helix vs all Comanches in USA's arsenal.

• Rocketspods is a far more capable and efficient weapon system. Practical application for mass Napalm/Nuke Bombs usage is rather small. Even with the new "fast drop" buff I assume.

• China could certainly use buffs and I predict this one wouldn't be that impactful, even at the cheapest price.

• Price could be increased for global upgrade, anything over $1000 probably kills the appeal again (proves how bad the upgrade is).

Direct investment comparison of Helixes and Comanches:

vHelix Quantity	Base Cost	+ Bunker Cost (400 + 5*300)	Total Cost	+ Napalm/Nuke Bomb (800)
1	1500	1900	3400	4200
2	3000	3800	6800	8400
3	4500	5700	10200	12600
4	6000	7600	13600	16800
5	7500	9500	17000	21000

AFComanche Quantity	Base Cost	Global Upgrades (800+1000+1500)	Total Cost
1	1200	3300	4500
2	2400	3300	5700
3	3600	3300	6900
4	4800	3300	8100
5	6000	3300	9300

vComanche Quantity	Base Cost	Global Upgrades (800+1000)	Total Cost
1	1500	1800	3300
2	3000	1800	4800
3	4500	1800	6300
4	6000	1800	7800
5	7500	1800	9300

[ImTimK]

Here another pro and con:

• Pro:
  A spawnings Helix isn't useless anymore, this might give China a slight boost in defensive situations. Instead of having to flee or cancel production, the Helix now has more potential to fight back.
  A Comanche can instantly use it's entire weapon arsenal straight from the spawn aswell!

• Con:
  Will delay global production for a little bit.

[Stubbjax]

I doubt the value of Napalm Bomb would increase that much as a global upgrade because Helixes are seldom mass-produced (with the exception of money-spam games where the cost is largely irrelevant anyway). The ability would likely be used even less if it held up Air Field / Mig production to research.

[ImTimK]

Helix spam vs Demo/GLA/China/Nuke (sometimes Tox) is very common in 1v1, it's one of the meta strats on higher level in fact.

In teamgames Helix spam is also very common, it can be very powerful with a mate who spams ground (like Dragons, BMs, Scorps, Overlords, ECMs etc.).

[MTKing4]

Helix Spam is meta indeed, especially Vs GLAs
And can be seen in all game modes, 1v1s, team games, ffas too sometimes.

[ReLaX82]

I see Helix bomb usage more in the early game if you ask me against Tunnels and workers possibly.

Reduce price globally and delete time cooldown.

[xezon]

Proposal 6 added.

[commy2]

Left is one Napalm Bomb (no Black Napalm), right is one Nuke Bomb.

The Napalm bomb is already underwhelming, but the Nuke one is pathetic.

[xezon]

We already buffed Nuke Bomb with #1540. It is not as bad anymore.

[commy2]

The image above is from current main branch. Seems like it is even worse in 1.04. I still think it is super bad.

[xezon]

It is not strong against buildings, but it is stronger against vehicles than Napalm Bomb. It has the same damage as Nuke Cannon. We can still apply the other buffs listed above.

[MTKing4]

The Napalm bomb is already underwhelming, but the Nuke one is pathetic.

i think it's fine, Nuke Bomb better Vs Units, Napalm Better Vs Buildings

is it true that Nuke Cannon and Nuke Bomb do the same damage to buildings? really? Nuke Cannon is this bad vs buildings?

[commy2]

Remove cooldown after purchasing upgrade. Will make branch.