Anthrax Bomb and Toxin Tractor Contamination can be cleared by enemy Poison and Radiation Clouds

[commy2]

When the enemy drops an Anthrax bomb, force fire the ground near with a Toxin Shell Scorpion or Nuke Battlemaster to delete it.

Proposal 1

Stacked poison no longer disappears.

Proposal 2

Stacked poison only disappears for ally attacks.

Proposal 3

Anthrax bomb spawns multiple puddles and requires more shots at different locations to be cleared.

Proposal 4

If exploit is removed entirely, then reduce Anthrax Bomb radius to mitigate impact on gameplay.

Proposal 5

If exploit is removed entirely, then reduce Anthrax Bomb poison duration to mitigate impact on gameplay.

Proposal 6

If exploit is removed entirely, then reduce Anthrax Bomb poison damage to mitigate impact on gameplay.

Proposal 7

Allow China to remove toxins with fire if we keep this mechanic to keep it consistent across factions.

Proposal 8

Anthrax Bomb puddle requires more damage to die. (Done)

• Change: Prioritize larger Toxin and Radiation hazard fields over smaller ones #2023

[commy2]

Why is this even a thing?

This is done to prevent poison clouds from stacking, but this also makes it so the player can just delete enemy large poison fields by creating small ones in place.

What is my suggestion?

Ideally poison fields could only clear up allied poison fields. That way stacking is prevented for the most part without being able to overwrite enemy poison attacks altogether. Implementation can be seen here: commy2/zerohour@c5ba420

[xezon]

I highly prefer a clean fix for this, then adjust balance if necessary. The current way the anthrax can be removed with 1 shot is not satisfying behavior and does not make the gameplay better.

[xezon]

Added proposals to opening post. I still think clean fix is best and then mitigate the inherent buff of Anthrax Bomb by tweaking it. Meaning Proposal 1+4 or 1+5 for example.

Proposal 2 I think is confusing.

Proposal 3 is better than status quo, but not really a good solution. Radiation also does not disappear on force fire. So why should Toxins?

[commy2]

The issue with proposal 1 is, that it means that poison/radiation clouds can now stack, which is a damage buff to Nuke Battle Masters/Overlords and Toxin Scorpions/Marauders. It may also affect Toxin Trucks/Rebels, but I don't know if and how bad that is.

Deleting allied poison clouds is reasonable, not deleting any of them at all affects a lot of things that are not the Anthrax Bomb.

[xezon]

Do we know if radiation puddles stack? And if not, why not?

[commy2]

Nuke General radiation puddle has 100 health:

https://github.com/TheSuperHackers/GeneralsGamePatch/blob/main/Patch104pZH/GameFilesOriginalZH/Data/INI/Object/NukeGeneral.ini#L28-L29

When it is created, it fires the HazardFieldCoreWeapon.

https://github.com/TheSuperHackers/GeneralsGamePatch/blob/main/Patch104pZH/GameFilesOriginalZH/Data/INI/Object/NukeGeneral.ini#L41

That weapon does 200 damage with HAZARD_CLEANUP type.

https://github.com/TheSuperHackers/GeneralsGamePatch/blob/main/Patch104pZH/GameFilesOriginalZH/Data/INI/Weapon.ini#L3406-L3408

Thus, new fields delete old fields. This works similar / the same for all poison and radiation fields.

[xezon]

Ok. So behaviour is consistent then. I thought it was Toxin only.

[commy2]

Yeah, and that is why I came up with proposal 2. It keeps the intend and unit balance, but gets rid of the exploits. However, one would possibly need to compensate since it is a buff to xGLA in matchups vs Nuke, Tox and lategame vGLA.

[xezon]

Ok I understand. What happens if you use something other than ALLIES, such as SUICIDE ?

[commy2]

SELF - damage self
ALLIES - damage other units from the same player or a team mate in 2v2 etc.
ENEMIES - damage enemy units
NEUTRALS - damage civilian cars, buildings etc.
NOT_SIMILAR - do NOT damage allied units of the same type, for projectiles, do not damage allied projectiles of the same type (e.g. ScudMissile cannot blow up other ScudMissile).
SUICIDE - no idea, same as SELF?

I propose to remove NEUTRALS and ENEMIES from HazardFieldCoreWeapon and keeping only ALLIES. Obviously do not add SELF or SUICIDE, otherwise a poison field would clear itself.

[MTKing4]

Ok so with proposal 2 puddles will still not stack but enemies can't clear it, sounds like a reasonable change, but yeah i do feel like a proper toxin cleaning unit is necessary for all factions

I suggest:
1- Ambulance for USA (obviously)
2- Toxin Tractor GLA ( A new Clean toxin ability, not the same sprinkler)
3- for China the options are:
(a) Troop Crawler (add same ability, but would need a turret)
(b) Outpost (Same ability, might need a turret)
(c) Dragon tank (Same ability or firewall)

[commy2]

Well, in the CCG China campaign mission 4, the story makes a point of how you have to use a Mig strike to burn chemicals from a GLA toxin factory, otherwise they'd spill into and pollute a nearby river. I always found it weird how despite this, flame weapons cannot actually clear poison at all.

Granted, it wouldn't really make sense for radiation puddles.

[xezon]

Can Dragon Tank clear Anthrax Bomb in original game? I think Troopcrawler and Outpost are not fit for clearing toxins, because they die quickly to toxins. And changing that would change dynamics, especially for China Infantry.

[MTKing4]

I updated the comment

[commy2]

Can Dragon Tank clear Anthrax Bomb in original game?

No, but without having tried, one could just make poison puddles vulnerable to FLAME type damage, and then they should be clearable by force-fire.

[xezon]

But then we are back at square one with clearing toxins by force firing.

[MTKing4]

think Troopcrawler and Outpost are not fit for clearing toxins, because they die quickly to toxins

Ambulances die quickly to toxins as well, unless you start clearing.

[Jundiyy]

Whilst I'd like a fix, feel it would be quite a big change, other than proposal 3. Whilst it is still a bigger change, it still works the way it is now.

[commy2]

But then we are back at square one with clearing toxins by force firing.

Kinda, yeah. Ambulance can already clear the Tox Bomb in one shot though.

Ambulances die quickly to toxins as well, unless you start clearing.

Ambulance is immune to poison (and radiation). It does only take a small amount of damage by the initial detonation of the Anthrax Bomb, but that is nowhere near enough to kill it.

[xezon]

USA Ambulance OP.

[commy2]

Whilst I'd like a fix, feel it would be quite a big change, other than proposal 3.

Prop 3 does not address the Toxin Truck though.

[MTKing4]

Can Dragon Tank clear Anthrax Bomb in original game?

No, but without having tried, one could just make poison puddles vulnerable to FLAME type damage, and then they should be clearable by force-fire.

In that case even migs can clear toxins, it couldn't be vulnerable only to flame walls?

[commy2]

In that case even migs can clear toxins, it couldn't be vulnerable only to flame walls?

No, all FLAME weapons. Including the sparks from Inferno Cannons and MOABs.

[Jundiyy]

That is true, didn't think of that, although that at the most, would just disturb the Supply lines or a Barracks. Which isn't as bad as a Tox Bomb.

[kABUSE1]

Perhaps a test map would be good to see a representative selection of toxin stack samples to anticipate the consequences more accurately.

I can build that test map if somebody can tell me how to make this stuff stackable via .ini.

I assume would need to be done for each individual variant of radiation and tox puddle in the game.

[xezon]

Test map would not modify logic, so it can be tested against any setups.

The weapon responsible for toxin removal is Weapon HazardFieldCoreWeapon.

[xezon]

Proposal 8 added.

[xezon]

So what do we do here? :D

[ImTimK]

For me proposal 3 + 7

[xezon]

I do not know how to implement nor if it is possible to implement Proposal 3 in INI.

Before going either direction, perhaps we can gather a list of Advantages and Disadvantages of Toxin and Radiation stacking to get an overview of what speaks for and against it?

Then it will be easier to make a judgement I think.

[MTKing4]

Proposal 7 & 8 for me

I think it's both doable and good middle ground both in providing counterplay for armies that suffer greatly from anthrax bomb and in mitigating that counterplay efficiency so that anthrax is not completely useless against certain armies

It also is the Smallest change possible and not very noticeable so that it will be easily adopted by the playerbase

[commy2]

2 & 7 and make it so Toxin Tractor does not spawn a poison puddle when killed while spraying.

Clearing stacked allied puddles likely exists to cap damage of fast firing poison weapons. Clearing enemy puddles is an oversight and exploit.

The advantage of keeping stack deletion is that 99% of situations remain unchanged from 1.04. Notable exception is probably Nuke vs Nuke Battle Masters suiciding into each other, which, if clearing enemy puddles is removed, makes intermingling puddles from both players stronger. Aside from that, stacking enemy poison clouds almost never happens unless the exploit is used. Closest thing I can come up with is Tox Scorps vs Tox Scorps, but they rarely are on top of each other like Nuke BMs.

[xezon]

Proposal 8 seems to be good regardless of what we do. I think it is always preferred that a larger puddle survives longer than a small one. Perhaps we can scale it so that small puddles have the least health, and larger one have more health. Then larger puddles will kill smaller ones.

[commy2]

HazardFieldCoreWeapon is only fired once the puddle is created, so making big puddles survive means that small puddles could be on top of larger ones without them disappearing themselves.

[xezon]

My understanding is that we can add firing interval here and redesign the damage to health distribution among puddles. Right now it is one shot. 200 Damage vs 100 to 150 Health of puddles.

;This weapon is used at the core of every damage field to kill other fields to prevent stacking
Weapon HazardFieldCoreWeapon
  PrimaryDamage = 200.0
  PrimaryDamageRadius = 10.0
  AttackRange = 15.0
  DamageType = HAZARD_CLEANUP

  RadiusDamageAffects = ALLIES ENEMIES NEUTRALS

  ; This clip pattern insures that the new field kills the old fields
  DelayBetweenShots = 5
  ClipSize = 1
  ClipReloadTime = 100000
End

[commy2]

Maybe, but you're likely going to create a mess where "weakened" puddles exist and old puddles stay fighting new puddles. It's something I would avoid if possible.

[xezon]

Why would that be a mess? Proposal 8 promises that large field would require more damage, so essentially more puddles would be needed to be placed on it.

[commy2]

firing intervals would create a mess.

[xezon]

I am not sure I follow. With this prototype it takes exactly 20 shots from Toxin Shells anywhere on the Anthrax Bomb to remove it.

• Change: Prioritize larger Toxin and Radiation puddles over smaller ones #2020

[xezon]

I could not observe any oddities. It works as expected.

Now the question is

1. How many Toxin Shell shots should remove an Anthrax Bomb?

2. How large should the removal radius of the Anthrax Bomb be? The maximum radius is 300, matching the Anthrax Bomb damage radius.

[ImTimK]

One issue there is with the whole removal mechanic is that's it's not a logical or documented ability/counter. I doubt it even was an intended mechanic to begin with.

A newer player either has to learn it through passed knowledge or accidentally find out himself, when increasing HP the latter case will be a rare occurence.

[commy2]

I doubt it even was an intended mechanic to begin with.

It's intended and documented in code. Using it to clear enemies is an oversight though.

[ImTimK]

I doubt it even was an intended mechanic to begin with.

Using it to clear enemies is an oversight though.

Has to be, one click to remove anthrax bomb is just ridicilous.

[xezon]

I noticed unpleasant issue with #2020. I set Anthrax Puddle of Scud Launcher to 50 health and 10 hazard damage, which will eliminate all puddles when 4 Scud Missiles hit the same location at the same time. So there are cases where all puddles would be able to kill each other to leave no behind. Not yet clear to me if that can be solved.

[xezon]

I can not think of a way to make #2020 work.

[MTKing4]

2 & 7 and make it so Toxin Tractor does not spawn a poison puddle when killed while spraying.

Clearing stacked allied puddles likely exists to cap damage of fast firing poison weapons. Clearing enemy puddles is an oversight and exploit.

That's a good point, it will keep the original damage for toxin units so that nothing is changed, like when a toxin scorpion shoots on enemy, they won't stack their own toxins over it so no extra damage

Also one important factor, which i assume it is already the case in 1.04 is if a Scorpion is shooting the ground to clear anthrax, it's applying half of the damage on its own stacked puddles, so the optimal clearing method should be that you shoot at different locations to avoid stacking your own clouds, but i guess this isn't a new feature so it shouldn't matter too much. But i think preventing ally stacking is a good change regardless.

2 + 7 + 8 for me

[MTKing4]

Proposal 8 seems to be good regardless of what we do. I think it is always preferred that a larger puddle survives longer than a small one. Perhaps we can scale it so that small puddles have the least health, and larger one have more health. Then larger puddles will kill smaller ones.

I think you need to be careful with that, we don't want larger puddles killing smaller ones before doing enough damage to the big one

I think all puddles should do the same amount of damage for simplicity and tweak their health, i think big puddle should have like 2 times the current health and the big puddles 4 times as much, so that it takes 2 shots to kill a small puddle and 4 shots to kill a big one, for starters you can go with that

[MTKing4]

I noticed unpleasant issue with #2020. I set Anthrax Puddle of Scud Launcher to 50 health and 10 hazard damage, which will eliminate all puddles when 4 Scud Missiles hit the same location at the same time. So there are cases where all puddles would be able to kill each other to leave no behind. Not yet clear to me if that can be solved.

Preventing ally stacking would solve that pretty sure

[xezon]

The only way to fix #2020 I can see would be to guarantee that no 2 overlapping puddles spawn in the same logic frame. But we cannot do that.

[commy2]

Also one important factor, which i assume it is already the case in 1.04 is if a Scorpion is shooting the ground to clear anthrax, it's applying half of the damage on its own stacked puddles, so the optimal clearing method should be that you shoot at different locations to avoid stacking your own clouds, but i guess this isn't a new feature so it shouldn't matter too much.

It shouldn't make any difference. The cleanup weapon does enough damage to one shot every other puddle. The only exception is easy AI firing on a hard AI puddle with 120 or more health (large puddles and Anthrax Bomb puddles only).

[xezon]

Boom, year 2023 brings pull #2023.