day8.md

Byron's Trial, Day 8 (Week 2)

(Planning of the next few days of trial. What arguments depend on the results of other arguments?)

(Doctor Anderson -- Prosecution Expert -- will fly in next week, but we don't seem to have time...)

• Prosecution: Bui brought a mistake made yesterday to my attention.

  • Bui: I'm well aware of the secondary caution. I misspoke, and I realize that there are risks to presenting from memory. I think those are mitigated by them speaking to counsel.

• Prosecution: Was this something I took you aside about or is it something you came to me about?

  • I came to you.

• Surreptitious photos you took...

  • I did it in public, clearly.

• The photos of the embassy were at a strange angle. You were concealing it.

  • No, I took the photo holding the camera above my head.

• Diagram of a lift to disrupt the fence

  • No, it was a diagram for pressing fuel, but I didn't build it because I was advised by the rocketry association that I couldn't.

• "I haven't intended to hurt anyone and always tried to follow the law..."

• Couldn't your potato cannon hurt someone?

  • Your car could...

• That's not what I asked.

  • What do you want me to say? You operate it safely, you have a line no one goes behind. ...

• "That owning a illegal firearm is fun but..."

• "I don't think it's an illegal firearm"

• Byron discusses how they can look at his garden and see different fertilizers and the effects they had on plants, including amonium nitrate.

• Bui interrogates Byron about Kristen.

  • Byron defends her
  • She vaguely approves of the G20.

• Bui: Did you consider applying for a G20 security contract?

  • Byron: No, I wish I could have... It would have been good thing.

• Bui: Would you like to hear a synopsis that will be submitted to the court?

• Bui reads document summarizing investigation...

• Byron points out several false statements.

• Byron starts laughing. "You guys are making stuff up!"

• Movie suddenly cuts off.

• A couple typos in transcript of recording pointed out.

(Computer blue screen of deaths)

(Extremely boring spelling correction in document for 10 minutes)

• Prosecution: Does the video fairly depict a portion of your conversation with Mr. Sonne?

  • Yes.

• Prosecution asks Bui to identify a bunch of pictures.

  • The ones he shows Byron in interview.

• Prosecution: The statement seems to be cut off at some point?

  • Facility was not optimal for recording.
  • I didn't have my own equipment.
  • Went for about 20 minutes more.
  • There is video surveillance of the rest from the facilities systems, but no audio.

• Was there any change in Mr. Sonne?

  • No, but there was an earthquake. I terminated the interview after, since we were both rather startled.

• Neither of you was injured?

  • No.

• Did you have further dealings with him that day, after you left the room?

  • No.

• When did you next interact with Mr. Sonne?

  • The next interview.
  • After a bail hearing.

John Dumlaw

New Witness: John Dumlaw (sp?)

• Interacted with Mr. Sonne at 13 division.
• Began shift at 1800 wtih ...
• At 2150 was contacted about Byron Sonne who is under arrest for a G20 related incident. Arrived at 2200.
• Tried to find out information while going in before interacting with Mr. Sonne.
• A lot was going on, it was a commotion.
• Detective Bui and other were there. There was a briefing and they were made the lead investigator.
• Mr. Sonne asked to use the washroom. I took him to the washroom.
• We had a conversation on the way back. He asked to speak to a lawyer. I said that sure...
• How did he seem, present?
  • He seemed uncomfortable, unconfused. Didn't interact for long.
• I got a phone call from Kevin Tilly, saying he was a lawyer and wanted to speak to Mr. Sonne.
  • Told him that I needed to verify that he was a lawyer.
  • Couldn't find him on the law society of website.
  • Found him on his firms website and that he was a lawyer at 23:48.
  • Called Mr. Tilly, told him I'd confirmed his identity, and gave him to Mr. Sonne.
• Actually, Mr. Sonne didn't speak to Mr. Tilly at that time.
• I went in with Detective Bui to talk to Mr. Sonne and explain his charges.
• Read rights to counsel. Then the questions:
  • Do you understand?
    • Byron answers no.
  • Would you like to speak to a lawyer?
    • "I think I would."
• He'd asked earlier to speak to a lawyer.
• It seemed clear to me that he understood his rights.
  • Had I thought he didn't, I would have elaborated.
• At 23:56 I placed a call to Kevin Tilly again, advised him that Mr. Sonne would be at court and time, and then transferred the phone to Mr. Sonne.
• Gave him his caution. Both of them:
  • You are charged with . May be used against you...
  • ...
• Convinced that Mr. Sonne understood.
  • Had there been any doubt that Mr. Sonne understood
• Mr. Sonne haded the phone to him, and said Mr. Tilly had asked to speak to him.
• "I wish to engage in silence. That was the advice of the lawyer, and so that's what I'm going to do."
• Did you stop talking?
  • No.
  • Clarify question..
  • Oh, yes.
• Later escorted him to the booking area.
• No further interaction

Defense crossexamines him.

• Tasked at 21:50 to join in.
• Not part of an existing plan.
• Not given the name of an officer to report to, just told to look into Mr. Sonne.
• At ... that Detective Bui and Detective Chong (sp?) were decided to be the lead investigator.
  • How did that happen?
    • ..
• Knew that [officers] had spoken to Mr. Sonne?
  • Got information from them
    • eg. member of hacklab.to
    • Reverse engineer, IT security specialist
  • They'd debriefed Mr. Sonne.
• French was typing up warrant
• Were you aware of an order that Mr. Sonne should not use a phone?
  • No, not aware.
• Mr. Sonne asked you for a lawyer at 22:55?
  • Yes.
• At 23:20 Mr Tilly called to speak?
  • Yes.
• What about between those two?
  • I had to figure out a lot of things before getting him his lawyer.
• Do you know if the exact wording you gave her honor was the charter wording you gave Mr. Sonne.
• Doesn't recall the exact wording of the caution provided.
  • Conversational... But it covered clearly the explanation.
• No note about the wording.
• No notation about his understanding of the caution?
  • It's clear that, if he asks to speak to his lawyer, he understands.
• No notation about his understanding of the caution.

Prosecution again

• If you had felt that Detective Bui had missed something important, you would have stepped in, correct?
  • Yes.

(Lunch)

(Judge comments on declining audience numbers -- I think this is the correct location in my notes, but I'm adding this a little bit after the comment so there's uncertainty )

• Defense: Today was the first day the we heard about Dr. Anderson's testimony. So there's an issue of ...

• Prosecution: We gave full disclosure...

  • Toronto life article gives explanations for certain chemicals and we want to talk to Dr. Anderson
    • Months ago

• Judge: Prosecution should have disclosed intent to interview him about this...

  • Effects time estimates. You should have told earlier.
  • Defense may have to get evidence.

• Judge: In theory we could adjourn trial to a later date, but that's in no ones interest.

• Judge: This shouldn't happen.

• Judge is having surgery and can't move it after this...

• Defense: There is another area that Prosecution intends to question about, a pirate bay document, and I don't know if there are any others. It is problematic for us. The criminal code is clear about our right to notice about expert witness.

• Judge: One possible remedy is adjournment.

• Defense: we may need to go weeks 4, 5, and 6 in chunks.

• Judge: I'm on the criminal team until 2012. It might be better from a management perspective if we

• Prosecution: We have discovered a video of Mr. Sonne being given his rights when he was arrested. We didn't find out about it today.

• Judge: Let's get him on the stand. We expect

Tam Bui (Part 2)

• Bui is back on the stand.

(Discussion of Blue Screen of Death by Prosecution and J) (Complaining about the amount of time it takes to start computer for several minutes)

(Computer starts but we can't get the video to lay. ) (Switch to using another computer) (Get it working) (Very loud at first)

• Bui: Nothing has changed for you.

• Bui: I wanted to tell you personally that we had arrested Kristen for explosives and ...

• We talked about actions. I want to you to understand that it that this has consequences for your family.

• I want to read you thing.

• "They have the ability to go into the Internets, the deep web, and dig up stuff"

• Reads Kristen saying: "I'll be very upset if you blow up your house..."

  • "This is a problem for her. This is a problem or her. We call this evidence. This is going to effect her bail hearing..."

• " Is this a there a reasonable explanation for this?"

  • "Yes, but I won't speak to you."

• "Not even when its her hearing today."

  • "It was just a joke."

• "People have been writing lots of stuff about you in the star."

• "There are some other people who would be very interested in you... Can you imagine who those people might be?"

• "I imagine people not as nice as you?"

• "We're talking about how to help your wife right now?"

• "My lawyer has told me to not talk to you."

• "Listen, I've never worked with Di Luca... But I'm a family guy, I'm a nice guy, I don't trump up charges. I think you're a misguided guy. We need to work through this process."

• Bui: Get's Byron water.

• "My job is to lead large scale criminal investigation. It's my job..."

• Byron: "I've heard that the police have special powers right now..."

• Bui: "I can explain that to you..."

• Bui changes to talking about raiding Byron's house.

• Bui: "I'm a bit of a fish out of the water here. Now I'm dealing with documents with words like that."

• Bui pretends to not know anything about torrents and tries to get Byron to talk about torrents, pirate bay.

• "They go into the deep webs -- never heard about the deep webs before today -- and make it open source."

• "You're wife shares your computer..."

• Byron: We keep it separate.

• "You share your computer..."

• Byron: No, we don't.

• "One of the most incriminating things, that I think is going to cause the most problems for Kristen: Setting fire with electrical timers by the Earth Liberation Front"

• "Please don't be one of those idiots who hurt..."

• "I think it is awful when husband and wife are both in jail. I truly find it heart breaking... I need an explanation of what she said on your website?"

• Byron: "If you would like to tender something with my and Kristen's lawyers, so that it could have the intended effect... It needs to be through the crown for that anyways..."

• Bui asks lot about contact with his lawyers.

• "What do you know about disclosure?"

• Byron explains

• "Do you understand that... with Kristen..."

(Computer goes to sleep, then freezes waking up) (Jokes about how computers get slower, Judge trying to fill gap)

• "Do you understand that that also includes Kristen... All of this content will be shared with Kristen. How do you think that will make her feel? Conjecture."

• Byron: "Not thrilled."

• Bui: "How do you think she's going to feel about that comment -- is this on your blog or hers?"

• Byron: "Mine."

• Bui: "... Gut some slack. She's your wife! Help her... This is my case, I organize it. Help me brother... Give me the reasonable explanation." (Bui's voice rising)

• Byron: "What is this in response to? It must be about the microwave cannon."

• Bui: "That's what I'm talking about! That's the kind of reasonable explanation I'm talking about."

• "We interviewed your neighbors and they were complaining about cellphone problems, problems with their alarm clock. Could that because of you?"

• Byron: "No."

• "What if I told you they said it got especially bad in the last few months and especially in the last few weeks."

(cut somewhere around here)

• "...Strategy for defense in teh weeks to years to come, but I want to know if you're innocent."

• Byron: "I am."

• Asks about whether Byron was in correspondence with ELF, etc.

• Bui suggests that if someone downloaded a torrent that Byron put up that that would be correspondence.

• Byron explains how ELF is crazy.

• Lots of stuff about whether

• Bui pretends that he found and that Byron admitted to a 'igniter' again.

• "Please contact me at securityseg@tao.ca for details " in details of some item.

• "ego route"

• Bui: "You're crazy! Didn't you think that someday would come across that?"

• Byron: "I think I have freedom of speech..."

• Keeps asking questions

• Bui: "What do you think of the Jewish People? A Jewish State?"

• Bui: "Did you know you put your home address on the Internet? Why did you do that?"

• Byron explains how he could have done everything in secret if he'd wanted to. I was open.

• Bui: "The onus is on you, Byron."

• Suggests that Byron should say that he was guilty to everything to protect Kristen.

From Denise's Notes: Bui: "I'll give you one option: you can throw yourself at the mercy of the court and say 'yes, I put together chemicals in my house that could make a bomb, I put together a rocket that could be used as a detonator, I got, my curiosity got the better of me, but I would never hurt anyone. I admit it, I'm sorry for it but it was me and it was all me."

• "Tell the truth for once, for god's sake!" "Man up! Sometimes people need to man up for the stupid shit we've done."

• Byron: "I might do this if I was the crown attorney and I had a promise [that it would protect Kristen] but you're not the crown and can just piss away any promise you make. And you can't ..."

• "I'm the head of your investigation. What do you want me to say at the end of my investigation?"

• Byron: "You can't tell me your going to get up and lie just to spite me for not pleading guilty to murder"

• Bui talks about how he'll fight tooth and nail to ensure Byron stays in a normal facility where Byron is subject to the normal laws of Canada.

• Talks about pubic works act.

Movie paused...

(Break)

Sergeant Shane Penton

Witness: Sergeant Shane Penton

• Primary response
• Asked to assist in the arrest of Byron Sonne
  • Yes.
• At 11:50 am I was on patrol, and told to go to 13 division. At 12 I arrived at the station and spoke to a detective at the station. We agreed to help them arrest a male they had under surveillance for mischief times 2.
• Mr. Sonne had left his house and was mobile. Southbound on Bathurst. Male white, blue jeans, sun glasses, knapsack. Activated emergency equipment and pulled bus over. Mispronounced his last name and asked him if that was he was and he said no. Then asked if he was Byron and he said yes.
  • Asked him to speak of the bus.
    • Yes.
  • Am I under arrest? I don't remember jay-walking.
    • Comment had no significance at the time.
  • Asked if he understood his right to counsel and he said yes, and then asked him if wanted to speak to a lawyer and he said yes.
  • Transported him to 13th division.
  • Pat down search for drugs or weapons and put everything in an evidence bag.

(Are we going to finish this application tomorrow? Probably no.)

(Further discussion about disclosure about expert witness.)