revisit python discussion

[dustymabe]

I think it may be time that we discuss python exclusion again.

To be clear here:

1. I'm suggesting we no longer deny python inclusion
2. I'm not actually advocating for including python, but for being able to include tools that require python.
   • For example, if we somehow in the future removed all tools that require python, or existing tools get rewritten to not require python, then python could drop out at that point (since nothing we include would need it any longer)

Now, why am I suggesting this? I argue that excluding python has caused us more work/pain than if we had just included it.

• Package splitting.. We did manage to get some packages split out so that python deps were isolated to a sub package, but that was a lot of work and there are still some that aren't right:
  • The nfs-utils saga is still not completely sorted out
• We have had to keep out things that I think represent basic level functionality
  • like firewalld
  • and basic level SELinux tools (like semanage) that people expects to be there (Keep/Remove Python dependent package: policycoreutils-python #126) (Managing SELinux in Fedora CoreOS)
• Also integrating with things like ansible hasn't really been able to work well (maybe some people have figured it out??). I know we have Ignition and things are supposed to be 'immutable', but practically people need to make small tweaks periodically.
• fwupd, which we shipped not too long ago appears broken because it dynamically depends on some python libraries to exist. I'm not saying we do want to include those libraries, just that we can't even consider it right now.

Now we could decide to implement a system python (where only files we ship in the OSTree could be executed with python), but we never made progress on investigating and implementing that IIUC. I think my suggestion is that we just stop resisting it and include it without new investigations to figure out if we can do something special here.

[LorbusChris]

Personally, I feel indifferent about the inclusion but I'd oppose the system python option, as it seems like the worst of both worlds to me (size increase && python still not universally usable).

[travier]

Related: AWS: Add predictable symlinks for secondary disks

[cgwalters]

Also related is #1726 - when fcos derives from the base bootc image, then we'd pick up python by default.

Also integrating with things like ansible hasn't really been able to work well

Right, it is intentionally included there, see also https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/bootc/dynamic-reconfiguration/

[travier]

See also: ostree archive's mtime modification results in slower python execution. Unresolved for Atomic Desktops:

• https://pagure.io/workstation-ostree-config/pull-request/505
• https://pagure.io/workstation-ostree-config/pull-request/507

[jbtrystram]

This was discussed at length today in the FCOS community meeting.

It was decided to think again and keep discussing next week :

!info take some time to consider the python discussion from this week's meeting (see transcript) and we will discuss next week

See the full meeting log : https://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/meeting-1_matrix_fedoraproject-org/2024-05-15/fedora-coreos-meeting.2024-05-15-16.29.log.html

[dustymabe]

Another ancillary benefit if python were to get included is that we could take advantage of the new OSBuild buildroot support that was added in coreos/coreos-assembler@0f8b35a - of course this wouldn't be reason enough on it's own to include python, but would be a benefit if it were.

[travier]

Also related is #1726 - when fcos derives from the base bootc image, then we'd pick up python by default.

I would like to note here that I don't think that's an argument for including Python. If the Fedora CoreOS working group and community decides to keep Python out of Fedora CoreOS, we'll have to figure out how to keep it out when we rebase on top of bootc manifests/images.

[c4rt0]

This was once more discussed today in the FCOS community meeting.

We finally reached a consensus:

!agreed We will no longer exclude packages that require python from Fedora CoreOS. If we decide that we want the package in Fedora CoreOS we will include it, even if it's dependency chain includes python.

See the full meeting log here.