PCB Design #2
Comments
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try kicad i think this could open it |
Probably not. |
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Exactly @NikiSchlifke. |
Well it's the status quo in industry... as for us Hardware Hackers we really need KiCad @Creality3DPrinting |
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ok it can't open it but it would be nice. |
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I agree KiCAD would be best, I'll see if something can be done. |
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I am missing the schematics as well. And there are really quite a number of real issues with this design. |
@RudolphRiedel Well, maybe it is a Protel file. I just found it opens without a problem in Altium. I'm not a specialist in in, just downloaded a free demo to open a file. |
While yes, the schematic is missing I do not agree that Creality needs to supply the data in any form they are not actively using. In fact they do not "need" to supply anything and we can considers us lucky already that they supplied as much as they have now. And for what purpose do you really "need" the files? |
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Here, I just created a project for the board and created an assembly plan with my default output job and not editing anything. |
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Still yes, I would apreciate a schematic to go with this and I would gladly convert it to a .pdf as well. |
Well, my CR-10 is currently connected to MKS L just because I like to do everything on my own, but I have also two not working Creality boards that I broken accidentally. It would be nice to have a schematic to repair the board or add something new. For example improve the 5V supply and maybe change Allegro steppers to Trinamic. |
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Repairability, exactly. I started to draw a schematic for the CR-10 controller-box a while ago, the whole thing including the pcb. With the PCB data I could easily improve my schematic further but at the same time I would prefer if Creality supplies the original schematics. |
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Wow! Thanks a lot @RudolphRiedel 😃 I need to replace the stepper drivers, so now I can make an adapter to plug them for example on breadboard (I really have to learn how to properly solder QFN uCs 😛). |
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It is a start, I was more interested in the controller. And with the wiring of the box I tried to figure out a way to add an auto-bed-level sensor more elegantly to the control-box. Soldering QFNs is not really that difficult. An affordable hot-air station, flux, something to mask off the rest of the nearby area of the board like capton-tape. The A4988 only have a QFN-28 case and the board has only two layers, so these should come of quite easily. Regarding tweaking, I was thinking about changing the config for the Z-Stepper from 1/16 steps to full steps. Or in other words, Creality delivered, if not all than most of it and in some regards with a suprising level of detail. We can hope that they are so kind to provide even more information but it is up to the community now to take part in this. And no, I am not adressing you specifically with this Aleks, more the community overall. :-) I did not like the supplied BOM, so I exported a new one and started editing it. |
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@RudolphRiedel thanks for your efforts. Great work. @Creality3DPrinting please publish all files in a file format that can be used for improving the hardware. |
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The schematic is missing, okay. And probably the project file and a few files around them. But otherwise releasing the original design files in whatever format is fully compliant with the OSHW definition: https://www.oshwa.org/definition/ For crying out load, they went this far and released their original data. If it is not in some weird custom format no one ever has heard of you will find someone who can convert it. Regarding converting, I took a quick look at the https://github.com/thesourcerer8/altium2kicad from above and it uses .PcbDoc files from Altium Designer and not .PCB files. Have fun with it and post a KiCad file if you can. Would you like a set of Gerber files as well? |
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Guys, it's literally just me doing this and there's a million other things going on. Unless your 3D printing parts for your failing iron lung cut me a little slack and give it some time😉 |
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Let's get things in perspective: Creality did their design in what is probably the best Schematic/PCB/Workflow/3D combined package out there - why the heck wouldn't they? Eagle is a far more common 'maker/enthusiast/hobbyist' package that KiCAD so, for a moment, let's get real... Altium does have the capability of exporting their design files in file form called ACCEL ASCII format. This is a data structure EAGLE is able to import. If you wish to import a schematic, click on File/Import/Pcad, Altium, protel option. Then follow the prompts on the dialog box. I don't know what file imports exist in KiCAD, but maybe this is a start? Naomi is doing her best - thank you Naoni... |
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I just uploaded a bunch of PCB files that I got in different formats, sorry I'm a bit out of my depth if they are useful, or can be converted to something useful I can also upload please let me know. https://github.com/Creality3DPrinting/Ender-3/tree/master/Ender-3%20PCB |
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I'm a happy user of Altium and my idea is to change the Atmel 8bit processor to ESP32 for more power of the printer and maybe (later) for network compatibility. But it is exhausting and time-consuming to develop the circuit diagram from the board. So it would be great if the documents were complete. So that the community could participate in the development of Ender, CR10 and other... |
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Urs I don't think anyone would disagree with you that schematics and board
files for all the popular packages would be ideal...
Natalie is doing her best but, as she freely admits, she's out of her
depth, so it's up to us to step up and make the process easier.
What's the first thing we need to know? Which software package are Creality
using to generate the schematic and board files - right? That's something
that Natalie can probably discover fairly easily.
Once we know that, then Natalie may be able to obtain 'latestVersion.abc'
and 'latestVersion.xyz' files, from which we can (hopefully) create
conversions for other software packages and provide them here, with
supporting information.
A specific request is likely to get a more positive and helpful response.
On a slightly different angle - why would you want to swap out the Atmel 8
bit processor for an ESP32?
Octoprint does a fantastic job of networking the printer already (and is a
'de facto standard') and is there really a requirement for 'more power' in
a device that is, basically, driving stepper motors and
monitoring/controlling two temperatures? All that is well within the
capabilities of the existing hardware.
I can see a need to split out the two fans, but beyond that, the existing
hardware works and, in general, works very well - even if it is close to
using all the available memory.
On Wed, 15 Aug 2018, 11:03 Urs, ***@***.***> wrote:
I'm a happy user of Altium and my idea is to change the Atmel 8bit
processor to ESP32 for more power of the printer and maybe (later) for
network compatibility. But it is exhausting and time-consuming to develop
the circuit diagram from the board. So it would be great if the documents
were complete. So that the community could participate in the development
of Ender, CR10 and other...
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On 15 Aug 2018 11:03, "Urs" <notifications@github.com> wrote:
I'm a happy user of Altium and my idea is to change the Atmel 8bit
processor to ESP32 for more power of the printer and maybe (later) for
network compatibility. But it is exhausting and time-consuming to develop
the circuit diagram from the board. So it would be great if the documents
were complete. So that the community could participate in the development
of Ender, CR10 and other...
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Duncan, thanks for your answer. Yes, you're right, it's not really necessary to change the Atmel to ESP. Solutions like Klipper are very charming, but you always have to make the detour via a RasPi and reprogram the printer hardware. Not very comfortable for the people (beginners). Octoprint may be a standard, but it was only created to make a difference. The challenge continues. Because stoppage is no progress ... |
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Sorry Naomi, but I went thru the files and do not see how these would be of any more use than the ones we already had, The schematic is missing and not more versions of the same board file. And btw. the board file has no 3D information except for one connector that is not even populated for the Ender-3 but replaced with a capacitor. Would Creality even be interested in contributions? |
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I agree that, if you want to 'fiddle' with the Raspberry Pi, it's a
complete pain - 'expert knowledge' doesn't do justice to the grief and
confusion of typing hieroglyphics into the command line. But installing
OctoPi is a painless process.
Sure, a Pi3 is significantly more expensive than an ESP32, but OctoPi runs
quite happily on a Raspberry Pi Zero W and it's virtually 'plug and play'.
I'm unconvinced by 'making it faster'. A 3D printer is limited by its
mechanicals, not by its processing ability - the heavy lifting is all taken
care of in the slicing.
All the printer's doing is moving steppers in response to the G-Code and
monitoring/controlling two heaters - an 8 bit Atmel chip has more than
enough headroom for that, in terms of speed and processing power.
If you priced your time for converting to ESP32 at $10.00 per hour then, by
the time you'd finished the hardware, ported libraries and got reliable,
robust code, you could probably have bought yourself a twin-extruder
printer. (Slightly bogus argument, I'll admit)
I appreciate 'the challenge' but, for me, 'if the wheel works, and works
well, don't waste time and energy reinventing it and end up with a one off'.
I'm a hardware man through and through, but I'd rather develop things to go
into 3D printed enclosures, than redesign the printer and have a heck of a
lot of downtime.
We've digressed... Mia Culpa...
…On Wed, 15 Aug 2018, 15:54 Urs, ***@***.***> wrote:
Duncan, thanks for your answer. Yes, you're right, it's not really
necessary to change the Atmel to ESP.
And you can go with RasPi and Octoprint. That's a safe solution and it
works
but it is also a complicated way to print.
Wifi is defacto a standard in the printer industry.
The ESP also has the advantage that it is much faster than an 8-bit Atmel.
Solutions like Klipper are very charming, but you always have to make the
detour via a RasPi and reprogram the printer hardware. Not very comfortable
for the people (beginners).
My idea is to update the printer electronics directly to have more speed
and comfort without special external hardware and software. The RasPi
solution costs more time and money to install and requires a lot of expert
knowledge ...
So to bring the printer into a network and improve the speed, the ESP is
certainly a good solution.
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So, as I suggested earlier, let's see if Naomi can find out what package
Creality are using and then we can see if she can get the specific files
that we need, by specifying the extensions
"This is no better than what we had", "This isn't even used", etc. isn't
helping Naomi get to files that we can actually use when she's out of her
depth by her own admission.
Give the woman a break - she's doing her best...
On 15 Aug 2018 17:46, "RudolphRiedel" <notifications@github.com> wrote:
Sorry Naomi, but I went thru the files and do not see how these would be of
any more use than the ones we already had,
The *schematic* is missing and not more versions of the same board file.
And btw. the board file has no 3D information except for one connector that
is not even populated for the Ender-3 but replaced with a capacitor.
Plus the PCB has a few pretty obvious design flaws.
Without schematic and project file and everything else connected to the
pcb-project it is however not that easy to contribute anything.
Would Creality even be interested in contributions?
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I am pretty sure that Naomi knows what a schematic file is even when not beeing told to lock for a file called .sch or .schdoc. |
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My two cents. Do you really think that Naomi can just go looking for whatever engineering files she can find, that she has access to the engineering documents they have? I would think not. If she isn't getting the kind of material that would be useful then I think it is because whoever she is dealing with is either not being as helpful, or they have been directed to not provide very useful information.
I would think they would be open to comments. As far as taking in design files, I would doubt it. It would have to be pretty spectacular work before I would do that. Or the previous work would have to be severely flawed. And I doubt that is the case. I didn't spend too much time looking at the PCB layout but I didn't see big problems. Sure there were a few minor things that I would not have let through, but I'm pretty particular about pcb design. |
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I wasn't implying in any way that Naomi wouldn't know a schematic file,
merely saying that the process of her obtaining the files for those who
seem to disparage her efforts so far, might be easier if we actually knew
what software was in use, and thus which file formats are Involved.
The schematic may be a ".sch" but it's very possible that it's not...
I certainly agree with the first part of Rudy's post and I think that the
second part is a distinct possibility.
Although Creality are supposedly open-sourcing things, that may not be 'all
at once' and it certainly won't be in file formats to suit everyone...
…On Wed, 15 Aug 2018, 23:15 RudolphRiedel, ***@***.***> wrote:
I am pretty sure that Naomi knows what a schematic file is even when not
beeing told to lock for a file called .sch or .schdoc.
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Okay so are we saying the new files I just uploaded are not useful? What format that can be exported from Altium Designer would be useful? No, I don't know a whole lot about PCBs, no insult there or anything. That's why I'm asking. |
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Have you figured out what the difference is between the V1.1.2 and the V1.1.3? Also, I forked the Melzi 1.1.2 repository, threw away the "schematic" that does not match the V1.1.2 board and put all the files in it that I still miss in the Ender-3 repository: https://github.com/RudolphRiedel/CR10-Melzi-1.1.2/tree/master/Circuit%20diagram/Motherboard I also went a step further and started correcting a few bugs with the original .PCB. |
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then, if i remove the capacitor and put in it a jst pin header, can use as filament sensor (or any sensor, like bltouch) like say in the motherboard diagram? |
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Sure, like I explained a litte further above. |
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If you remove the capacitor from that spot (in order to use the header) you should be putting the capacitor back into the circuit in an equivalent position. They put it there to fix a problem. Just removing it may cause operational issues. |
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I suspect (and it's only a guess) that one difference between v1.1.2 and
v1.1.3 may have been to fix a ground track right at the edge of the board
(left side, viewed from above, I think) that was often broken when the
individual boards were separated from the panel.
That was something that caused all sorts of issues.
…On Fri, 1 Feb 2019, 16:59 RudolphRiedel, ***@***.***> wrote:
Have you figured out what the difference is between the V1.1.2 and the
V1.1.3?
I have both boards on my desk and have not noticed anything else than that
EXT-A2 is populated with a capacitor on the V1.1.3 instead of the 3-pin
header.
This alone should not be enough for a new board revision, this is merely a
change in the BOM.
Also, I forked the Melzi 1.1.2 repository, threw away the "schematic" that
does not match the V1.1.2 board and put all the files in it that I still
miss in the Ender-3 repository:
https://github.com/RudolphRiedel/CR10-Melzi-1.1.2/tree/master/Circuit%20diagram/Motherboard
I also went a step further and started correcting a few bugs with the
original .PCB.
Nothing functional though, it still is a V1.1.2, only with less broken
data.
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I do not see it.
There is a difference on the bottom though. There is very small copper-bridge at the bottom near the left hole. This is not an improvement though, it makes the layout worse. |
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I'm having a problem where my hotend heats up immediately on powerup. I pulled the board and i'm just looking to replace the fets that are bad. I have tons in stock, but can't find the datasheet for the part number ( |
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You found the "wrong" thread. :-) The problem is to identify which FETs are really on the board, especially since the heatsink is glued to them. Edit: and I just checked that now, I definately would not go for the IRF522. |
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I pulled the heatsink off and tested them. It's the middle one. |
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Looks like IRLR3114 should work, but I got a MKS Gen L coming anyways so... /shrug |
Could you post the location of where the capacitor should be relocated for future reference? A pic would help. |
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Well, problem is to find a spot this cap would be benefical at in the first place.
Highlighted are the 5V. One could place a new cap where the "Creality3D" is written on the PCB.
I would solder it to C42 and have it lie on its side covering the "Creality3D". But this board layout is so bad, I really wonder why it works this good in the first place. |
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Just gonna throw it out there but there are quite a few Chinese engineers that design pcbs straight as artwork rather than drawing in schematic capture first.....(they pen and pencil it). Could be why there are no schematics here. Even bigger sign is they all seem to use that same old protel version that's pirated in every form at this point. |
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They do have the schematic as can be seen here: The supplied CR-10 Schematic.pdf however does not match the supplied CR-10 Motherboard.PCB. The schematic is for a dfferent version of this board, very similar but not the same. I carefully tried to remove anything that could be seen as my opinion. |
I'm just now seeing this and am wondering how anything works at all. On the v1.1.2 board there is hardly any ground plane at all from the main power terminal. Just a tiny bit under R18. The vias next to C30 do absolutely nothing since the mounting hole is in the way of the bottom plane. |
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I would put that in the realm of luck. The return path for the current the stepper drivers draw is one issue. ARef tied to VCC is just a minor detail that is wrong. That is what I found on the spot, there most likely is more. But hey, it is still working, nothing of the above prevents it from working. The only sad thing is, all of this could be easily fixed by now if Creality3D would be embracing the idea of Open Source instead of just dumping a bunch of files in a repository and be done with it. They could be using a much better board by now with close to no or even no additional costs to make and close to no cost to develop it. Instead we still have no answer to the question what has been changed for the V1.1.3 board (and apparently it is only a very minor detail or otherwise it would have been spotted by now). According to the .pdf this is the schematic for the CR-7 Melzi board. I really have no idea why this has not been corrected in over four months. CR-7 controller board: |
After a second glimpse at this board I believe I was wrong about this. So, sorry, no, the board in the picture does not match the schematic either. I tried to find a different picture of the CR-7 controller board but have not found any. |
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Would it be possible to generate an OpenBoardView file for the Ender board? |
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Are there even converters for OpenBoardView available? There is however a free viewer for Altium: To make good use of it, try the files from my forked repository: In contrast to what Creality released so far there is not only a schematic that actually matches the board, the schematic is in binary form and not only a .pdf. We never got an answer to the question what the differences between the V1.1.2 and the V1.1.3 boards are. And after playing with these files again, it really is a shame that there is no point in fixing the design. |
Indeed I wonder the same things... Thanks for your hints. I still think an OpenBoardView file would be very useful for repairs, maybe we'll eventually find out how to make them. |
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new board 1.1.5 |
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Any hints on why this has a new revision? Don't get me wrong, I would not call these bad boards and I would like to have these in my printers. |
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Also, still no connectors for TX and RX so that one could hook up, e.g., an ESP8266... |
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Fysetc Cheetah or BigTreeTech SKR MINI-E3 is probably better choice than stock boards EDIT: new board BigTreeTech SKR E3-DIP (with interchangeable drivers. include drivers with mode UART or SPI without wiring)
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Now that is interesting, A nice touch is that the mini E3 is using a bootloader that can update the firmware from SD-card. @creality: Put an ATSAMD51 on the V1.1.5 board to make it a V1.2.0 and I am almost in. |
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And please give us RX and TX pins so that we can attach serial devices (e.g., ESP8266 with https://github.com/probonopd/WirelessPrinting). |
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The ATSAMD51J19A-AU has 64 pins and 6 SERCOM units which can be used for SPI/TWI/UART. |
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seems SAMD51 is not supported by marlin |
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At least it is in Alpha already. :-) Here, I started a schematic for it in the meantime: Unfortunately it does not make any sense to build a couple of these for me alone. |
Hi Naomi!
Can you please upload the PCB files in format that does not require a paid PCB design software?
Or at least Eagle files.
What program creates that .PCB file?
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