Replies: 55 comments 28 replies
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Project system and templates is a bare minimum. |
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For inclusivity, add Visual Basic to the list as well. |
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VB has its own github issue: #266 , let's stick with F# on this one |
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@Happypig375 vb.net is basically dead. I doubt it will even be supported in .net 7 |
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No doubt vb needs to be here. It's the 5th or 6th most used dev lang in the world, for both front ends and back ends, for CLI and GUI. |
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@Padanian I don't believe that's accurate. While Microsoft is supporting it in .net 5, there is no commitment for anything after that, and they are flat out saying they are not adding new features to it at all: Bottom line: move to C# if you want to stay on .net - there really is no reason not to and so many reasons to move to it. |
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I know what is their position at this time . It's most probably going to change. |
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Please don't say that. We have a 600k line codebase written in F# built on top Xamarin.Forms. If they remove F# support - we are toast. We would need to rewrite everything within the 12 months period they have allocated to continue supporting Xamarin.Forms. For reference, Xamarin historically has somewhat encouraged use of F# on their platform and frameworks - Miguel de Icaza himself was pushing F# on the stack between at least 2014 and 2016 - they never did this so prominently for VB.NET. Then in 2018 the Xamarin team took on Don Syme (creator of F#) and the Fabulous MVU framework was produced - amongst other things internally. So F# does have a special place in Xamarin history and should continue to do so if for nothing else but maintaining backward compatibility. In my view, all languages that Xamarin Forms supported should continue to be supported by MAUI with at least equitable functionality. This means project system and templates as a bare minimum. |
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Ok, that say it all. Good luck! |
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No problem. Try F# ;) |
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He is afraid f# is not going to be supported also. And he believes that vb.net is more popular than f# - maybe he is right. 🤷🏿 |
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It's not hard adding a template unless there is a lot of magic tooling occurring within. |
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Don't have VB and F# communities bigger problems than shouting at each other? |
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I support VB - they should experience no loss of functionality either in this Xamarin Forms to MAUI transition. I don't think this should be a fight or choice between whether VB or F# is to be the lucky 2nd language that gets supported by MAUI. Let's just support all 3 to maximise the platform's reach and minimise arguments, pretty please? |
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This issue's like count has surpassed #34. Feels good man |
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I'm not (yet) an F# developer, i'm studying it a bit and is pure awesomeness :) Regarding VB.NET i doubt it will get more than what it gets now: basically nothing. |
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By TIOBE index, VB is the 6th largest community of developers at around 4%. |
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@pstricks-fans There is a reason why this functionality is covered by libraries. Xamarin.Forms/MAUI only wrap platform-provided native controls (UIKit or Android.Widgets). |
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The up-votes on this issue are currently over 5x the next nearest (260 vs 50) #101 (src) It is disappointing when people are acting like we are in a zero-sum game, when we have F# people supporting VB usage and encouraging them to advocate for more VB support. At the end, I hope we can see all 3 in that |
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🤓 Closed issues should also be considered, which beings the factor down to ~2.34x. #43 was just closed 3 days ago. |
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Thanks for speaking up guys. One day Microsoft will realize how important F# is for the company's future. |
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I do think that would be good for maui developers to keep in mind that not only mvvm exists and there are other scenarios like ones Fabulous suggests. Also i hope in maui there will not be all these overengineered things made like overcomplexity of renderers architecture due to inheritance issues. |
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I see that this discussion was converted from an issue. Are there some actionable items that we can define to turn this into an issue to design, implement, and track? What are the blockers? From what I can gather from the discussions and what I've read, the key points are:
(Note that I left off any mention of visual designers. I don't view them as practical to maintain or even very relevant in F#. The dynamic UI supported by Fabulous is fine and doesn't need designers, especially if live reload is implemented.) I am willing to volunteer to help, if even for something as simple to help maintain the templates. I know F# but am rather new to Xamarin.Forms (learning through Fabulous at the moment). I'm willing to help for whatever it takes to make F# a first class citizen in MAUI. I have a project in mind, and I sort of view MAUI as my last hope for developing a cross-platform desktop application in F# (Fabulous being too focused on mobile since Xamarin Forms itself is). |
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C# will be driving the design. And the MVU pattern would be based on Comet MVU - very smart and nice. Then RX UI, Blazor and F# support would be added. |
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That information seems opposed to this comment in the linked issue. Do you have any design or roadmap references for this information? Thanks. |
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It is not contradicting anything. F# support will definitely be added in form of fabulous or something else. But the Maui MVU would be based on Comet by James Clancey. |
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Is that a guess of yours or was that explicitly decided? Is it written down anywhere? I'm just curious because maintaining the state in some special base class like in Comet does not deliver the full potential of MVU where state is usually modelled as an immutable structure where detecting changes is possible just with doing reference equality checks (at least that's my understanding). The state and the event handling loop don't have any special dependencies in pure MVU, only the view. |
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Wanted to add that comet-style MVU is very similar the model of another F# project - Sutil. The reactive Store (aka State in Maui) worked well to me without using Elmish, so it should be just fine to use comet-mvu in F#. The only thing I'm worried is the need for explicit casting, it will make writing markup in F# annoying (just like it did for writing pipelines in ml.net), so if it is the case then some F# bindings will be required. |
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Comet is C# MVU for .NET Maui. For F#, it hopefully going to be Fabulous. |
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Well, I personally don't like elm architecture, but I like fsharp and I like sutil and comet-mvu style (also known as frp) as well, so I can't agree with fabulous to be the only option for fsharp developer. |
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@Lanayx FWIW I agree with you. |
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@Lanayx For F#, it is going to be Fabulous. While for C# MVU, it is going to be Comet. |
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It is going to be one of the options. You can develop yours and take advantage of all the goodies in .NET Maui. But as for Comet-MVU style, it is going to be C#. However, if you would like to write yours, or bring a port of Sutil to .NET Maui, that would be great. |
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Please support F# :D |
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FYI, if anyone is seeking unofficial F# support for MAUI/Xamarin.Forms, use these templates: https://github.com/fabulousfx/FSharp.Mobile.Templates (even if it lives in a fabulous-related github org, the templates are not using Fabulous framework) |
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This will not happen for day one its a pipe dream maybe second year or so but the team bot even mentioned f# beside blazor nore xf supports it |
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Can we leave declarations of what is or is not on the development horizon to the official MAUI team? I doubt we hear from them given this was an issue converted to a discussion, but it doesn’t help that non-MAUI team members and seemingly non-F# developers are making hard declarations about what will or will not or should or should not happen. F# is a first class .NET language. It would be silly to see F# not supported at all ala UWP. |
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Overwhelming support by the community did seemingly result in zero recognition. F# is officially seen as a first class citizen within Microsoft, while this translates often into subjective ignorance. First, adopting a model from the functional world, then ignoring the functional language. Genius 👍🏼 |
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Sounds like the perfect plan as MAUI seems to continue to support C# only, and to be honest that's fine, XAML and Elmish approaches are quite different, another option would be making a F# template based on something like MAUI community toolkit markup (NO XAML). |
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Several F# templates for MAUI are already available depending on your preferences. :) For XAML/MVVM: https://github.com/fsharp-mobile/FSharp.Mobile.Templates |
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@TimLariviere thanks, would be nice something more low level, without Elmish, like an imperative setup for a windows with canvas drawing, custom graphics, game loop... |
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@mindlid For this, I would recommend you start from the XAML F# template and keep only the F# code. This will let you do imperative stuff without depending on an external library. |
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You gotta understand, caring what you are saying reading the developer's feedback, it's too stressful for mental health! |
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When resources are limited, we should concentrate our resources to do one thing. Instead of spreading resources to do a few things well, you get nothing done. |
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I am curious how F# Blazor works for this. I can see a lot of benefits from this because F# can make javascript and html type safe. |
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Maybe you can fabulous |
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Fabulous isn't blazor. I tried bolero, but I don't how to wrap the project into a maui app. |
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Maybe asking at Bolero GitHub page, they could give you more useful pieces of information than here? |
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Oh, so a bunch of people is waiting for microsoft to provide F# support for MAUI |
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Creativity is an old friend, microsoft is but someone promising you stuffs but things happen with deliveries, let's remember democracy blessed us with anti-trust laws and freedom and the disruptive creativity brings the energy it needs for this industry to be alive so god bless America let's make America great again ! |
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I really want to learn F#, but it seems much harder than C#. |
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Yet, you are here on a Microsoft GitHub repo. lol |
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At least he can be on here. Not all of us support the con man. |
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It's another language you still need to program, you'll find it easy after learning it. I could've written this in C# because I am using .NET objects in F# instead of its own types, like many people probably liking F# for the ability to write lesser code, I wanna implement one-liners that let me have advance StackedLayout so instead of vertical of horizontal I wrote quantum computing inspired structures that use waves to represent number and determine where the next element should be I want the ability to do it In C#, I have to define what's the type when I am implementing a method, it can be a list of Tuple of condition and functor, or something different while I am modifying the code doing the programming, in F# I never needed to tell the compiler what my types are it knows |
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FYI. I tested Fabulous MAUI. Initial testing shows that it works well (tested only on Windows). No hitches thus far. To get running use Visual Studio and add 'maui' workload. Then apply the following. dotnet new install Fabulous.MauiControls.Templates (I took out android target as I don't have that sdk installed yet) |
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and others
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Summary
F# support from day 1 is critical. F# consistently gets left off of supported tooling with MS UI frameworks, this leaves it unsupported and it never recovers. Teams have made excuses for not supporting it and never seem to find the time or resources and thus F# support never happens. We’ve asked and pleaded for F# to truly be supported like the first class language it is held up to be. Please this time make it truly one from day 1 so that it isn’t behind from the very start and then dies as a option for so many who would use it if it was truly supported 100%. Please.
Intended Use Case
Many of us functional developers use F# and want to use it for our GUI apps as well.
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