Improve heresy generation

[thefinestsieve]

I'm thinking something like jordarkelf's No More Random Heresies, but better. In addition to making certain cultures favor specific heresies, I'd also like their presence to slowly increase the chance of other heretics appearing (especially with regards to individual heretics increasing chances of provincial heresy) and if the problem snowballs enough it'd be fun to have some sort of super heretic rebellion where they band together and declare independence or something akin.

Perhaps we also could crib something from the Decadence mechanic, but better? We could introduce a new mechanic whereby heresy is introduced as a modifier or trait "Sympathy for X Heresy" which gives you a chance to persuade the character, imprison them, and so forth. This would fit nicely into the previously mentioned improved character interaction model.

[zijistark]

I'm not sure how it would fit mechanics-wise, but definitely, I can at least see "interest in new interpretations" flavor events budding when catholic MA starts to go above 75.

[zijistark]

Interactions regarding actual character-character heresy spread should always include a ruler, though. Performance-wise, doing sane character-character heresy spread in a "trickling" (most natural) fashion will do a big number on things. However, province-wide conversion in heretic strongholds would not be unheard of (and the game already has other mechanisms of character-character spread), although such "mass" conversions would be a sledgehammer where a meatgrinder would be more desirable.

I tend to think in the SWMH-sized province world and not the vanilla, you see.

[ And it really just means a couple of courts anyway... ]

[thefinestsieve]

It's also possible that part of the suggestion might be kind of pointless, considering it would, in effect, just increase the speed at which heresy would spread, which might be accomplished more effectively by other means if it's desirable at all. Perhaps it would be more beneficial to focus on an overall goal of making it more likely for heresies to become a problem. Possibly have a separate, rare heresy introduction event with more elaborate and comprehensive setup, something which starts slowly, spreads quietly, and suddenly emerges as a powerhouse.

Broadly speaking, I'd really like for heresies to occasionally become deeply rooted and hard to remove. It shouldn't happen often, and it might be better to focus on it happening only to high authority religions, but it could be a lot of fun when put alongside the current mechanics.

And on the subject of a quiet and subtle initial spread, it could be related to the "Decadence" like trait/modifier I mentioned originally. It could spawn some interaction while at the same time spreading in a way you might not be able to fully address. And you wouldn't necessarily know if or when it's going to turn into an actual problem rather than just some folks deciding to be a little more open minded...

[zijistark]

I like where you're going with this.

How about we hide province variables in affected provinces corresponding to a "heresy interest level"?

First, we seed out the interest levels somewhat like Heretic Strongholds work, except hidden, subtle, and affecting all neighboring provinces of the one so selected. Essentially, we're adding heresy points. [Every 3-10 years, we could subtract a point(s) from every province so that interest decays properly.] We do this w/ much higher MTTH the higher the MA of a religion.

Simultaneously, interaction-events like casual-conversations and men-preaching-in-the commons start potentially preparing to convert people and are sparked randomly by interest levels in provinces. These too add heresy interest points to the provinces in which they occur, creating a building problem so long as the MA remains high (and other hospitable factors). [Careful balancing required.]

We don't worry about converting characters themselves until it's a big problem (else, there's a big problem keeping coherency with the regional heresy that's supposed to be developing). Once a province "pops," it adds a certain amount of extra points to all neighbor provinces. It converts to a [optionally culturally coherent] heresy and ripples through any neighbors that it may have popped in the process too. The initial "pops" are given the Heretic Stronghold modifier (very hard to root out, costs MA).

The heresy spread event is modified to speed-up heresy spread (from adjacent provinces, as it does) according to any "heresy interest points" those adjacent provinces might have, so the unused points get used in a quicker spread pattern.

When a province adopts a heresy, about 50/50 or so of its rulers (nondeterministic) will adopt the heresy automatically in one shot (and automatically convert their courts, children, etc. like other religious change mechanisms in the game).

Naturally, this will all damage the MA of the church as it goes, so while it should cause big flare-ups that are hard to remove, further heresy spread will cool and interest points will even wane.

[zijistark]

I guess this would also apply to low MA (though it could be the death knell for a religion, so perhaps just Catholics wherein something like Fraticelli can take over), but it is particularly well-suited for a high MA environment. Due to the fact that the Church essentially has no opposition, looking into heresy with an open mind is not automatically considered a crime against the Church.

Indeed, it is the false sense of security for the Church which would breed quick, regional, strong flare-ups of coherent heresies (probably with a lot of favor given to Fraticelli due to the heresy takeover mechanic and the fact that they can call Crusades still, should they prove a permanent problem for the Church) that not only apply to provinces but to rulers as well (and we know how that can get fun).

[thefinestsieve]

That sounds like a solid approach, especially since it would be super fun to be a player and get a chance to toss your chips in with the super heresy rebellion. It would especially benefit vassal gameplay, which I know is an area we both want to enhance.

Also, I think making it more likely to happen to high MA religions is probably a must, along with modifiers based on the relative dominance of a religion. I'm thinking that in cases where a player has conquered a huge chunk of the world, converted a ton of provinces, and parked their religion at the top of the MA chart, that religion should take over the Catholic spot as most likely target. It's a shame the heresy takeover doesn't work for everyone, but why deny them the fun of having to deal with a potentially legitimate threat? (And since religions without heresies would be excluded, that naturally limits the target list anyway and dodges some of the possible issues related to hordes.)

[zijistark]

Yeah, it would add another vassal-vassal angle. Hell, it could even be particularly historical about actual Fraticelli, etc. beliefs. Obviously, cybr has done this sort of thing w/ his take on Dulcinians, but really, there's no attention given to the special religious differences of the more mainstream heresies-- Fraticelli in particular as a perfect candidate for vassal-vassal interaction-events (can I call them iEvents? ✋ ) which do also inform, as they were indeed fairly radical Franciscans if I'm not mistaken (can't say this is a strong point in my historical knowledge) and not quite so dull as those Cathars and Lollards that seem to pop up so much (we can change that).

I'd start gunning for the "who to takeover after the takeover" a bit later down the line (but you know this). Not making some simplifying assumptions and being fully dynamic really makes this problem a hell of a lot harder to solve (not to mention with non-generic flavor). Honestly, we're talking about mechanics to make life harder on Catholics here for the moment, so I'd design with that as the target and simply try to fit the rest as well as possible into the core mechanic ("heresy interest") automatically.

Favoring Fraticelli vs. Catholics significantly appeals to me. Mod the game so that SoA can finally do one of its main advertised Things. Fix a religion with rampant MA due rather fundamentally to the way the College of Cardinals works. Make it actually a threat. Make it coherent. Make it an unexpected twist for a campaign. Make it even more interesting when you're part of the affected, relative "heretic mega-movement." Or nearby.

Heresy is always a bitch for everyone, and Catholicism / its ilk need a lot more bitches in CKII.

[thefinestsieve]

Seems like the best approach would be to make the core mechanic as generic and flexible as possible and make the flavor plug into it. That way we can focus on doing some Catholic specific flavor first, but we won't be denying other religions the chance to experience the basics.

[zijistark]

Right, the core mechanic I described about "heresy interest points" and then the "popping" process is totally generic and can work for any religion with heresies.

It just won't come up so much for the already bedraggled Sunni (in 1066-- in 1187, after Saladin, they're doing pretty well on MA), usually-bedraggled Orthodox, and mediocre-to-decent Shia in the 1066 start. But it can. Also, some parts of the modifications are just improvements to coherency-- regional and along other dimensions and are general heresy mechanic improvements, aside from takeovers.