Plots

[zijistark]

Given that EMF is all about coherency, character-to-character relationships (and tracking thereof), mechanics, and flavor, EMF's take upon plot intrigue is going to be a big deal for players. I'm coming to the table in this discussion with just a sliver more than the notes/forethought given here, so I definitely need help developing plot ideas/mechanics, overall project strategy, and implementation detail.

Goals of the emf-plots project:

• Determine a coherent strategy that will underpin all plots, including vanilla:
  • Plots are an excellent way to generate character relationship history information, and all of that will feed into the rest of EMF, definitely the VF, as well as back into plots.
    • STOMs (Stacking Targeting Opinion Modifiers) need to be used to track character-to-character "I did this to you" or "He did this to me" or "He helped me do this" types of relationships, sometimes in multiple categories.
    • Character variables tracking the number of times a character has plotted a certain category of plot should be used to feedback into likelihood of a repeated plot. Or just flags
  • Make sure that plot chances properly account for the relationship history between characters (checking things like STOMs) and other EMF-specific context, making incoherent love-you-but-simultaneously-plot-to-kill-your-son drivel just not happen.
  • Rate-limit plots. Don't let the same AIs plot over and over. Give them a cooldown. To a lesser extent, give them a greater cooldown to using the same plot over and over. It's annoying.
• Adjust vanilla plots to be reasonable. Some of the vanilla plots are a bit imbalanced or annoying
• Expand our generalized (i.e., not culture-specific) plot selection to at least cover the territory of the presently-defunct VIET Immersion through presumably simplified, ground-up implementation of the key plots we like and perhaps variants on those that we might not like as much in their present form (semantically)
• Also expand our plot territory to cover some of the interesting plot concepts covered by CK2+
• Add brand new, fresh plots. Some of them could be altogether original yet still generic. Many of them could be related to EMF-specific mechanics such as the Vassal Faction, its leadership, meeting outcomes, plots to sabotage a reputation, plots to sabotage an economy, plots to incite a cultural/religious revolt, plots to embezzle money, plots to force a character to do something, etc.

We need anything good and coherent really. These are opportunities for negative (for someone) intrigue, and they're important to most players, especially a lot of those who will be coming from VIET Immersion or CK2+.

Note that this issue is tied into the 'More ambitions' Issue, of course, since ambitions are usually just neutral or positive forms of plots.

Please feel free to respond with basic plots to add or any other ideas upon this subject. I do need help here.

[thefinestsieve]

I think another goal should be to maintain, or reduce, the number of plots in action at any given time. While that is probably obliquely covered under your outline (the annoying plots, characters plotting for no reason, etc), I wanted to mention it specifically because I think it's important for the gameplay experience. I can't be the only one who puts together a large kingdom and then ends up having to force stop all plots because the sheer number brought to my attention is overwhelming; and barring Paradox providing a way to filter them, I don't see the situation improving on its own, so I'd hate to contribute to even more plot spam clogging up a player's medieval inbox.

As for other suggestions, I figured I'd get the ball rolling with a previously discussed suggestion: Plot to take over as regent. While it would go best with an accompanying overhaul of regency itself (someone should add an issue for that), I still think it's probably worth having around. And it might become more important in the future if we eventually plug regency into some of the other mechanics—I'm thinking about things like the regent cooperating with the VF and so forth.

[zijistark]

On the 1st point, yeah, I think plot frequency and plot coherency from the outline do obliquely cover the issue you raise. Thanks for underscoring it, though, as this is an important point in which we can provide an improvement over vanilla:

• Keep in mind that you play a VIETImmersion-derived game personally, so you actually see plots at all. Outside of that world, pretty much only 2 plot types ever fire.
• Paradox does provide a mechanism for us to balance this. We just need to cleverly use it. Objectives (e.g., plots) are always discarded by the AI under a known, tunable threshold of the product of their chances and chance factors. These must be carefully formulated to actually be discarded most of the time. Further, there's no reason we can't do something like reduce plot chance a bit on a sliding scale of realm_size to address this problem.
• [What I'd really like to do, though, is have a way to track "realm justice," whereby the more plots that fail due to discovery (the chances of which would be modified by various factors, including the intrigue and stewardship of the liege), the higher goes the "justice" variable (as well as various other things affecting it-- predominantly other things, actually), which reduces plot chances across-the-board. It's a pipe dream, I know, but you catch my drift.]

Plot to Steal the Regency 👍

[thefinestsieve]

At the very least realm_intrigue could be tied to AI likelihood to start plots. As a side benefit this would also make intrigue a more attractive attribute, and it could use the help.

(On the subject of playing with Immersion: I actually disabled all the Immersion plots, both because they were a little buggy and because of the plot spam issues I mentioned before. So my plot spam criticism is rooted in PB plot density, not in Immersion's.)

[thefinestsieve]

Rambling list of some of my plot thoughts, leaving off stuff that @zijistark has more or less covered:

• As mentioned previously, I'd like to see the overall density of plots reduced a bit
• Plotters should be less likely to plot if they're more likely to be caught (high realm_intrigue or some other measurement) unless, of course, they're idiots or can't resist scheming (Deceitful or Arbitrary or something)
• AI characters shouldn't be trying to kill folks unless they have traits which suggest they'd do something like that, so a hypothetical trait-less character probably shouldn't be plotting to murder unless circumstances are extreme
• Other plots which are less drastic than murder should carry fewer trait restrictions for the AI
• AI characters should be more reluctant to plot way beyond their tier, so no barons starting plots (joining is, of course, fine) against emperors (I don't even know if that's possible, actually, but I think the point remains)
• PB has changed some of the opinion modifiers related to plots, so, in contrast to vanilla, attempted or successful murder of your liege's family now properly gives prison_reason = yes and the AI should probably be made "aware" of the increased consequences
• Unless the AI has high intrigue or other scheming related traits, they should be reluctant to plot if other avenues of accomplishing the same objective are open to them
• It should probably be possible to lose traits like Kind or Just if you're discovered (whether successful or not) plotting to murder someone as a player (but it shouldn't be done just for choosing to start the plot, since people do make rash decisions sometimes and change their minds later, and I wouldn't want it to happen if you were plotting to kill an infidel or someone you have just cause against)

(I might add more later.)

[zijistark]

Note that multiple levels of realm_intrigue are potentially valid for a character's chance of being discovered. It's, more or less, any_liege = { realm_intrigue = X }, except that it's not just the maximum amongst the liege(s). Every liege has a chance of discovering their plot, so the more lieges, the lower the likelihood the plot should be. In conceptual terms, it'd be something like the sum of all lieges' realm_intrigue.

[thefinestsieve]

I'm thinking checking the realm_intrigue of the liege who can actually enact punishment would be enough. As far as I'm aware, being discovered by any other other liege has no negative effects other than allowing that liege to ask you to stop plotting. Though I admit I'm not entirely clear on the behind the scenes shenanigans going on with that part of plots.

[zijistark]

I suppose you're right.

I don't think there's really any natural way to address the issue with plot-spam for a high-tier liege in a large realm. Not with plots revealing the way they do. If only... Paradox would simply change your "spymaster's job" to be revealing plots that are actually relevant to you-- your direct vassal subrealm-- instead of your entire subrealm, then the system would actually scale. Besides, plots of interest outside that sphere can and should be discovered by event where applicable.

[zijistark]

Hey, wait...

If, by and large, plotters simply didn't plot much outside of that sphere unless there was a by-event mechanism of discovering them and punishing them, that would effectively accomplish the same thing, right?

[bnormoyle]

Two plot ideas:

Character assasination: Significantly lower target character's prestige.

Incite rebellion: Decrease the VF's opinion of target ruler.

[Dskod1]

Couple of Plot Ideas for the pope and curia. More Curia political intrigue would be cool and make sense.

1. Lose Relations with the Pope: Use political intrigue within the Curia to ensure the pope no longer favors this person.
   High percentage for getting cardinals in the plot, low percentage for getting church vassals of the target to join, medium percentage for getting target's court chaplain to join.
   On Success: pope -50 relations with target
   On Failure: pope -50 relations with plot creator
2. Excommunicate: Use political intrigue within the Curia to ensure the target is excommunicated by the pope.
   High percentage for getting cardinals in the plot, low percentage for getting church vassals of the target to join, medium percentage for getting target's court chaplain to join.
   On Success: Target is Excommunicated
   On Failure: Plot Backfires, Plot Creator Excommunicated