Quarg Revamp Discussion

[Saugia]

We are now continuing the Quarg Revamp project, and I held a stream where we discussed most things overall and what choices we've made so far. You can find a recording of that stream here. Below I will summarize what we've come to for a conclusion:

Design Choices

Will update this with images once we get the design in a more completed state.

• Skylark-esque - mostly dark greys, silvers, and perhaps small cases of glowing lights and light hues of blue-purple.
• Bridge gap between Becca's and Todd's newest designs- not too spiked, not too curved. See the VOD linked above.
• Avoid rocket ship shapes and uniform shape distribution.
• Each Quarg ship class can have small differences in appearance based on their ringworld location - not necessarily stat-focused, but slightly altered sprites, like Archons.

Update: The following design is an almost-complete sprite of the direction of the new designs, and I have delegated @1010todd as the modeler to create them:


Note, this is the 2x size. This will ideally be one of the two Heavy Warships listed below, and we'd work smaller from here.

Outfit Choices

In addition to what is currently in the game, we will likely be pulling from the original Quarg Expansion PR:

• Fluxion Shield Generator
• Infimum Shield Generator
• Singularity Core
• Tachyon Core
• Central Repair Unit
• Peripheral Repair Unit
• Different-sized Graviton thrusters

Weapon Choices

No ballistics.

In addition to what is currently in the game:

• Voidscythe - A large, single-blast type beam weapon, with possible niche in damage type(s). Think like the "Nullifier" of turrets.
• Possible others being discussed.

Ship Choices

No Fighters. No Transports. No Superheavies. Scale generally around Human ship level, depending on design and class. Names based on dragons/dragon mythology.

We've come up with a total of 10-11 ships for the Quarg's roster:

Civilian Design

• Lindwyrm Freighter (Skylark Replacement)
• Amphithere Freighter
• Kirin Freighter? (A Freighter designed for freight in times of conflict)

Utility Design

• Guivre Utility Ship (Ringworld construction ship - transports large loads of materials for them and assists in construction for them)

Legacy Design (Older ships pre-Pug and Coalition Conflict)

• Wardragon Light Warship
• Drake Light Warship
• Direwyrm Medium Warship

Recent Designs (Due to Pug and Coalition Conflict)

• Wyvern Medium Warship
• Hydra Medium Warship
• Unnamed Heavy Warship (Appears as a rare spawn for the Korath Efret Quarg and during the Coalition Campaign)
• Archdragon Heavy Warship (Only appears within the Coalition Campaign)

Balance Notes

• A Wardragon (LW) should not be able to take on a Heliarch Punisher. Two Wardragons have a better chance to take on a Punisher, but not easily.
• A Quarg Medium Warship should beat 2 punishers relatively consistently; 3 Punishers should be likely to beat one.
• A Quarg Heavy Warship should require at least 4-5 Punishers to defeat.
• The Skylance needs to be nerfed. The original proposal is in half.
• The Quarg should make use of active cooling more in their outfits (see the old PR).
• The Antimatter Core needs to be rebalanced. (In turn, balance the other cores.)

Suggestions

I'm leaving these unchecked until we have a general consensus on them being things we do/or we just decide on them anyway.

• Perhaps Quarg thrusters can be given reverse thrust equal to their normal thrust.
• Perhaps the Quarg should have a lower disable threshold.
• Perhaps the Quarg should have lower armor, but more resistances.

Some ship and outfit names are obviously to be decided and are not final, others may be adjusted.

While design and overall ships and outfits/weapons have been decided upon, please use this opportunity to discuss balance as that's the category we need the most feedback in. Again, reference the older PR found here as a start. Thank you all for being so patient while we worked up to this point, and I can't wait to see what designs we look at for finals, as well as where the Quarg turn up in the relative future!

Side-Note: Capn' Pester, the Author ship that uses the current Wardragon design, will keep that design. The name "Skylark" will no longer be used, however it will cause conflicts with pre-existing Quarg ships in saves if it is used elsewhere.

[Quantumshark]

My thoughts and suggestions on outfit balance:

Shield Generators

From the current stats, the Quantum shield generator could do with a moderate buff (roughly +50%) - the old Quarg PR covers this. I'd also give it lower energy draw too, and maybe also disruption resistance or protection?

Hull Repair

The old Quarg PR covers moving the hull repair from an integrated hull ability to an outfit, which I think is good.
The hull repair from the PR is balanced for T3 as-is, but I think it might fit better thematically for the Quarg to mostly rely on shields over hull and use disruption resistance and/or protection, so the hull repair could be less strong than the Heliarch hull repair without making the Quarg vulnerable to disruptor spam.

Energy

The Antimatter Core needs a lot of nerfing, and their other outfits probably need their energy draws reined in quite a bit to compensate. Even after the major nerf it recieved in the old Quarg PR, it's still vastly too strong. After watching the parts of the stream I missed, I noticed one idea that was mentioned is giving the Quarg very heat-inefficient generators to make them harder to work with when looted. I'm not sure that fits the quarg thematically, but I like it from the balance side. I have worked out two proposals for where they should be - one based on Derpy's idea of giving them extremely high heat per ton, and one going for a much more efficient style.

That'd still be enough to easily eclipse every other reactor in the game - The Singularity core would be stronger than a blue sun by more than twice the difference between the blue sun and the strongest human reactors (as well as being smaller), and how often do you run a fusion reactor once you have access to Korath plasma cores or Wanderer suns? - but it wouldn't completely shatter the concept of energy balance.
And yes, the energy draw of their other outfits is probably going to need to be reduced to compensate.

Their batteries are in a reasonable state balance-wise, but they aren't interesting. That's not necessarily a problem, but it would be nice if they were. If we decide to go with the idea of giving them lots of active cooling, but not with the idea to spread it out across all their outfits, I think this is probably the strongest candidate for where to put it.

Engines

Engines are in a reasonable state already apart from the aformentioned energy issue, though they don't exactly scream "T3". The suggestion to give them reverse thrust equal to their normal thrust seems reasonable from the balance side, though integrated reverse thrust is already a feature of Remnant engines and is planned for the Xapleaux, so perhaps it'd be better to give Quarg engines something else instead.

Weapons

The Quarg AM could maybe use a small buff - maybe up the AM strength to 50, to give it more of an advantage over lower-tier AM systems.
Skylances need their DPS cut considerably, and honestly I'd say they should either lose the ion or commit to it.

Other

The old Quarg PR gave all Quarg outfits integrated active cooling - 15 per ton, at a cost of 1 energy per 5 cooling.
This is nice, and helps make the Quarg less vulnerable to overheating. The energy efficiency of it should probably be improved though - this can be considered to be part of the "the energy draw of their other outfits is probably going to need to be reduced to compensate." point.

I'd like to see their ramscoop moved from their hulls to an outfit, but that's only a minor thing, and need not be done at the same time as other changes.

[Hecter94]

So, linking these two points together, how about giving Quarg thrusters a new "fixed acceleration" mechanic - regardless of the mass of the ship they're on, that ship always has a set amount of acceleration, fixed by that stat on the thrusters.

This feels more like something I'd expect to see on Efreti engines. Since they both use gravitational engines and have large ships, whereas Quarg are going to be focused more on having smaller ships on average and no particularly large ones, so they'd get little benefit from this fixed acceleration.

I personally feel Omnidirectional engines are the best route to take for them, with equal forward and reverse, and lateral when/if that happens.

[RisingLeaf]

Another thing that could be unique to those engines, which is not possible with current mechanics but not too difficult to implement, would be for them to either pull enemies close or push them away while using them, as they are manipulating gravity.
Depending on what fits their weaponry better it could give them a strong advantage in battlefield.

[lumbar527]

I think it makes more sense for them to be using omnidirectional engines, rather than using their engines directly for combat. Maybe.

[Saugia]

On the other side of things, I'm not really convinced the Quarg need some brand new neat mechanic just because they're Tier 3 and getting a revamp either. The less exclusive mechanics in the game, the better. If we give the Quarg something nobody else has, that would be at odds with several other species like their relation with the Drak and Pug. I don't think there's anything wrong with using what we have instead of trying to make them "cooler".

That's not to say I would be against some type of gravitational advantage in Quarg design, but that doesn't need to be, and likely shouldn't be, an effect of the engines. Having reverse thrust does not give any sort of detriment besides the opinion of that it's boring and not unique enough to the Quarg, which as I said is subjective reasoning, not a mechanical or balance reasoning. There's nothing wrong with adding something that currently exists in the game to a faction currently underwhelming in some areas.

I'm not really sure if we're adding lateral thrust to the game as it's been said we won't be doing strafing mechanics, but that's a discussion for another topic. Remember, this revamp is not necessarily an attempt to or invitation to add new mechanics just for the Quarg. If that's something desired, it can easily be discussed after. A majority of this revamp is visuals, logistics, and outfits, not new mechanics or code, i.e., like with creating new factions, they shouldn't rely on the creation of a new mechanic.

[DarcyManoel]

I have an idea on the integrated engines. Turning should remain as a second set, but require the thrusters to be installed first.

Having this set up would restrict Quarg engines from being as flexible for mixed faction builds. Sense being that a second gravity engine would be required to actually turn rotate the ship in an opposing direction as the first is.

Turning engines would include identical thrust as the first set, but enable very powerful turning force. Naturally, adding a second turning engine would increase the thrust of the build by 50% but turning by 100%, a third would increase the thrust of the build by 33% and turn by 50%.

[RisingLeaf]

Regarding projectile sprites, the ranseur and the skylance look nearly exactly the same, should it not be easier for the player to see what they get attacked with?

[Saugia]

I'm looking into working on the visuals of weapons as well as sounds. I have some ideas for changing how they look and operate. Will post updates.

[RisingLeaf]

Two things:

1. With an expansion of the Quarg, should come a deepening of the pug lore. Of course that's not the core point of this rework but the Quarg and the Pug are strongly related lore wise and if the Quarg lore gets expanded this should also be done under the consideration of the Pug Lore.

2. I think it would make sense to create another project room on Discord? A discussion is good for talking about bigger things but a discord chat room offers a more casual way to talk about things.

[Saugia]

I'll bring up the channel on discord. As for the Pug, I'm not sure. One thing that will have to likely be done is rebalancing Pug ships and outfits around the new Quarg, but as for a revamp, I'm not really sure Pug lore needs to be deepened.

We are deepening Quarg lore, yes, but it's majorly visuals, and the Pug technically always had this with their tier-difference ships as well as their splinter groups, involvement in different parts of the campaign, etc., whereas the Quarg were never much beyond their Ringworlds and Wardragons.

At the moment the Pug have more "active lore", if you will, and this revamp will give the Quarg more "passive lore". I think any deepening of Pug lore should just be considered the same as it's always been, as well as how Quarg has been, by interactions in future content or something, not just because the Quarg are getting something.

Remember, the Quarg have been placeholders for years, the Pug have not. Although both species are mysterious, it makes sense to keep the Pug as more of an unknown being an extra-galactic species, not a species that has been home to the galaxy for a long time.

[RisingLeaf]

I see your point and after reading this I agree.

[mathwhiz1212]

@Saugia Isn't "home to the Galaxy for a long time" somewhat relative considering the ES storyline at least implies that the Quarg and Pug have been fighting in or around the human galaxy since before humans were around?

Though the Pug have never really had a "home" in the human galaxy if that's what you mean.

I agree with your reasonings about lore, I'm just curious about this particular point.

[Saugia]

Yes, that's what I mean - the Pug are Extragalactic, and the Quarg are not. It makes sense the Pug remain a mysterious factor.

[mathwhiz1212]

That makes sense.

[OcelotWalrus]

Hey,

Sorry to bother you guys, but, is there any way to get the blender/3D models of any ship that looks like this one?

[EjoThims]

I think @Arachi-Lover probably is most likely to have or know where to get them all.

I think maybe? Brick as well, but I'm not nearly positive enough on his name here to tag the random suggestion that comes up.

[OcelotWalrus]

Thanks!

[Arachi-Lover]

Assets can be found on the old PR that was also a try at a Quarg expansion:

#3665

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1qCnJMyfmY2Za6EFqBz2k4TqLFwHofdNS

[OcelotWalrus]

Thanks!

[SultanRTG]

What do you guys use to make the models for Endless Sky?

[Saugia]

Blender and GIMP, generally.