Community Council (CC) meeting held @ 15:00 UTC in grincoin#general channel on Keybase. Meeting lasted 79 min.
Notes are truncated, and conversations sorted based on topic and not always chronological. Quotes are edited for brevity and clarity, and not always exact.
- anynomous
- defistaker
- cekickafa
- dtavarez
- ardocrat
- yeastplume
- mo5itoo
- vegycslol
- Checking and reviewing funded requests tasks by community and Grincc members and tracking by GK discussion is being held.
- Publishing a refund request on forum pages for @satoshocrat due to missing work is agreed.
- It has been proposed and is now being debated as an alternate method to the existing funding structure that CC funds could be used as Bounties in exchange for finished work.
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Last meeting notes here: https://github.com/grincc/agenda/tree/main/notes
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Current meeting agenda
dtavarez :1 minute. any question in regards of today's agenda? any comment before start?
anynomous : No, we can start.
dtavarez : cool. should be start with the To Do List? @defistaker any comment on adding telegram Link? did you submit the PR?
defistaker : link is added on grincc.mw
👍 anonymous.
dtavarez : good. @cekickafa I think you already submit the PR checking funded requests, right?
cekickafa : yes, it is submitted.
dtavarez : would you mind to paste the link here? is under review still right?
cekickafa : https://github.com/cekickafa/docs-1/blob/main/funded_requests_progress.md
Well, there is a couple PR to be reviewed.
dtavarez : what exactly you need from the CC? would you mind to share what would needed to merge this?
cekickafa : It would be good if i had access to github/doc for certain things.
dtavarez : oh the thing is that in order to be merged, it is required to be reviewed by several people. I don't thing it will make a big difference
ardocrat : Let me start, I suggested to pay from CC fund only for already done tasks related to grin marketing/development, as we have small budget and small progress here, we can not
afford to sponsor full-time workers like it was done before. Grin has no revenue and we are not corporation to do this.
Idea is to create Github board with tasks and pay for results when they will be finished.
@cekickafa can manage this board, CC members can approve both tasks and payments.
anynomous : Maybe we can make a subdirectory with different permissions
cekickafa :
dtavarez : oh the thing is that in order to be merged, it is required to be reviewed by several people. I don't thing it will make a big difference
review and cross checking is enough. It is quite transparent imo. If edit, or addition needed, can be done.
dtavarez : then I think the suggestion should go into https://github.com/grincc/docs/blob/main/approval-scheme.md
the we could proceed.is that OK for you?
cekickafa : Ok.
dtavarez : cool.Feedback from community about adding/fixing social links to grin.mw site. @phyro can be that marked as done?
cekickafa : Not really. Not much feedback to reach a conclusion.
anynomous : Yes, it was discussed on the forum:
https://forum.grin.mw/t/updating-the-grin-mw-page/10463/4
dtavarez : cool we skip that then should we? for now
anynomous : There was a pull request, not merged yet:
dtavarez : the we can continue
anynomous : i think we can mark it as done, it only needs reviewing.
dtavarez : I would suggest to mark it as donde after merging to avoid confusions but I'm Ok either way since merging it is out from the CC duties
anynomous : Also fine
dtavarez : and we don't have access to do it anyways
anynomous : We can leave it for now.
dtavarez : cool, @satoshocrat was asked several times to join conversation
ardocrat :
ardocrat : Let me start, I suggested to pay from CC fund only for already done tasks related to grin marketing/development, as we have small budget and small progress here, we can not afford to sponsor full-time workers like it was done before. Grin has no revenue and we are not corporation to do this.
Replace fund requests with bounties. Payments should be done after work, not before, cause we should make sure work is done, does not matter in what time.
anynomous : I encouraged him to give feedback in the forum discussions via private message, @dtavarez chatted with him and asked the same, @cekickafa I think also contacted him.
dtavarez : no response from him
anynomous : Unfortunately so. Both me and David had contact with him latest on March 23, after that, radio silence
dtavarez : it seems to me that this will be his answer: no answer.sad
anynomous : Indeed, a pity, In case he would have provided a reason or at least requested to compensate his work, I think that would have been fine. But since he did not take responsibility or even communicated about his problems, I think it is proper to ask him officially for a refund. At least, that is my opinion/vote.
👍 cekickafa, dtavarez
ardocrat :
ardocrat : Replace fund requests with bounties. Payments should be done after work, not before, cause we should make sure work is done, does not matter in what time.
Let me remind you, Grin is not place for scam, its all about trust :) With this type of funding we can be sure everyone can have identical rights to contribute and get rewarded without watching on their past. "Superstar", newbie or volunteer, it does not matter, only real work matters.
mo5itoo : i'll also ask for a refund or at least join the conversation to give us responses
dtavarez :
anynomous : Indeed, a pity, In case he would have provided a reason or at least requested to compensate his work, I think that would have been fine. But since he did not take responsibility or even communicated about his problems, I think it is proper to ask him officially for a refund. At least, that is my opinion/vote.
I think we can proceed
anynomous : @satoshocrat has a good reputation as a long standing grin community member who added something to the project, so his choice not to take responsibility is a real pity. But yes, in the end we all have to take responsibility for our actions, or lack there of.
dtavarez : who will write the post then?
anynomous : I can do so. I will write to him on the forum as well as in private mesage on Keybase, we can mark it as #TO DO, for the next meeting.
👍 cekickafa, dtavarez
dtavarez : cool. thanks @anynomous
ardocrat :
anynomous : @satoshocrat has a good reputation as a long standing grin community member who added something to the project, so his choice not to take responsibility is a real pity. But yes, in the end we all have to take responsibility for our actions, or lack there of.
Lesson learned, now we can take action to avoid this in the future.
👍 cekickafa, anonymous
anynomous : All in favour of making this an official request to return funds for his latest funding period, thumbs up, those against, thumb down.
👍 cekickafa, dtavarez, mo5itoo, angler1, ardocrat
cekickafa : yes, draw a line. For future possibilities.
👍 ardocrat, angler1, 💯 anonymous
anynomous : Community thumbs are also welcome. I would like to know this is also what the community wants
dtavarez : I think enough time was given tbh I see no need to spend more time on the topic
ardocrat :
anynomous : All in favour of making this an official request to return funds for his latest funding period, thumbs up, those against, thumb down.
Official request is cool idea, but this is internet.. We are not credit organizarion to call collectors :)
anynomous : Ok, I think we can move on to the next, first real agenda point:
ardocrat : Official request is cool idea, but this is internet.. We are not credit organizarion to call collectors :)
Yes, we cannot enforce, basically he can ignore but at the cost of his reputation. But an official request by the CC and the community holds more weight than from any single member.
1) Proposal of CC funds to be used as Bounties for completed work, made by any member of the community; approval by CC members.
dtavarez : @ardocrat would you mind to go in deep here? or in a forum post explaining the pros and cons
anynomous : Yes, we can discuss this more on the forum.
ardocrat : I think @cekickafa can manage this part. As for me CC Fund was initially created to support bounties, but switched later to support funding requests
👍 cekickafa
anynomous : Can you eleborate why you think this would be good @ardocrat
dtavarez :
ardocrat : I think @cekickafa can manage this part. As for me CC Fund was initially created to support bounties, but switched later to support funding requests
I would suggest to search in the forum about this topic since it looks like this is a never ending subject.
cekickafa : if Bounties work for '' Coinswap Mwixnet'' or python wrapper. It would work for certain tasks.
ardocrat :
anynomous : Can you eleborate why you think this would be good @ardocrat
As I said later to increase trust. We can not be sure member will disappear or drop his work after funding
anynomous : Not really, historically there were first only funding requests, bounties were later discussed as an alternative with as objective to pull in more developers (did not really work that well, a few cases), for specific task that are well defined and suited for bounties.
👍 dtavarez
dtavarez : I would love to participate in that conversation in the forum
anynomous : So I would not say bounties are a good replacement for funding requests. The OC even opted for something like a long term agreement with @yeastplume instead of a Funding Request.
ardocrat :
anynomous : Not really, historically there were first only funding requests, bounties were later discussed as an alternative with as objective to pull in more developers (did not really work that well, a few cases), for specific task that are well defined and suited for bounties.
I dont see problem here, @dtavarez can ask to fund his Nostr Grin++ development let's say. Same for every other feature.
cekickafa : @yeastplume is an exception. He has serious 6 year record.
ardocrat :
cekickafa : @yeastplume is an exception. He has serious 6 year record.
He is not using CC fund as I understood
👍 cekickafa, anonymous, defistaker
anynomous : Yes, and I think you hit a keyword here, reputation/a good record
👍 cekickafa
dtavarez : like @anynomous said, devs were funded after a while
anynomous : So, I think for new developers, Ground Keepers and other contributors, it is fair to ask for payment upon delivery.
👍 cekickafa, ardocrat.
cekickafa : yes, he is known with reputation and skills. And his work is transparent at github.
dtavarez : I would say that people tend to focus only on the negative things and invest more energy in dramas; the same people who complain that "grin looks dead" are the same people who wouldn't support the role of GK but without GK we will have given the haters reason to hate because we would be in the position where Grin would look dead GK is an active role as well as dev
ardocrat :
cekickafa : yes, he is known with reputation and skills. And his work is transparent at github.
People can work at private repos for sure, he is core dev, so his work is transparent
dtavarez : also then we will need to define clearly how the work will be reviewed and have people committed to do it
cekickafa : What i mean is you cant compare other contributors with yeastplume as an example.
anynomous : In general, I think the whole bounty versus Funding Requests requires more discussion, and linking back to old discussions (my god, did we discuss this topic in detail in the past, so many times😅)
dtavarez : I think it would be healthy to have a long discussion about it and the forum seems to me the right place to do it
💯 anonymous
ardocrat :
anynomous : In general, I think the whole bounty versus Funding Requests requires more discussion, and linking back to old discussions (my god, did we discuss this topic in detail in the past, so many times😅)
Maybe it worked in the past, but I can see times changed, funded work is not bringing results as it was before.
dtavarez :
ardocrat : Maybe it worked in the past, but I can see times changed, funded work is not bringing results as it was before.
I'm not sure about that.
anynomous : Neither systems work perfect, so it is in the end about choosing the right system for the right task and for the right person.
dtavarez : I think @cekickafa has been delivering for example. @defistaker also did delivery
ardocrat :
dtavarez : I think @cekickafa has been delivering for example. @defistaker also did delivery
Yes, but what about others? Can we take your work as example?
dtavarez :
ardocrat : Yes, but what about others? Can we take your work as example?
yes, please. my contributions are open to be discussed
👍 ardocrat
anynomous : Yes, it work for the most part, this is the first time I would say we are having major issues, although @jankie1800 did not completed all tasks for his last funding request.
ardocrat :
dtavarez : yes, please. my contributions are open to be discussed
Your Github page is open, everybody can see indeed.
yeastplume :
anynomous : So I would not say bounties are a good replacement for funding requests. The OC even opted for something like a long term agreement with @yeastplume instead of a Funding Request.
For the current arrangement, I was billing for the previous month's work and getting paid monthly on that basis for a while, the only reason I get some pay up-front now is that it's less annoying to convene for signatures once every 3 months than once a month.
dtavarez :
ardocrat : Your Github page is open, everybody can see indeed.
here's a summary https://forum.grin.mw/t/davidtavarez-contributions-summary-logs/10474
Grin++ Desktop UI 1 Main Developer & Maintainer.
Additions: 58,015 Deletions: 36,469 Technology: Typescript + React + Electron Grin++ Mobile UI 1 Main Developer & Maintainer.
Additions: 40,179 Deletions: 13,126 Technology: C# + Xamarin Grin++ CLI + Nostr (WIP) 2 Main Developer & Maintainer.
Additions: 2,460 Deletions: 3,306 Technology: Python Grin++ Node/Wallet 2 Maintainer & Developer.
Additions: 806,553 Deletions: 1,345 Technology: C++
anynomous :
yeastplume : For the current arrangement, I was billing for the previous month's work and getting paid monthly on that basis for a while, the only reason I get some pay up-front now is that it's less annoying to convene for signatures once every 3 months than once a month.
A, understandable. So basically it was also payment upon delivery.
yeastplume : if we were hiring anyone else (who wasn't a core dev with a track record), we would agree payment and the work required, but not pay out until work has evidently been done
👍 cekickafa, anonymous, angler1, ardocrat
ardocrat :
dtavarez : here's a summary https://forum.grin.mw/t/davidtavarez-contributions-summary-logs/10474
As I said before past work is not counting, lets discuss current progress, from January to April.
dtavarez :
ardocrat : As I said before past work is not counting, lets discuss current progress, from January to April.
sure, here you have https://forum.grin.mw/t/grin-recent-development-updates-and-nostr/10449
the code is not safe to use yet as I said before and is under too heavy development still not need to push it or merge it
anynomous : Is the API part done/ready to use, not talking about NOSTR?
ardocrat : So.. I suggest you to create bounty Nostr Grin++ and get paid after this work will be done, I think it will be fair for all
dtavarez :
anynomous : Is the API part done/ready to use, not talking about NOSTR?
CLI is using new APIs yes; also I am introducing more changes to include Nostr too.
ardocrat : Dev work progress can be tracked from code, so any community member can check and be sure.
dtavarez : who? point someone please
defistaker : I can not check but, would like to examine code for curiosity
dtavarez : I am more than tired of this: "anyone could do it" while no one jump in
defistaker : https://github.com/GrinPlusPlus/GrinPlusPlus/commits/master
ardocrat :
dtavarez : who?
Anyone who has internet access :)
dtavarez : who?
defistaker : @dtavarez, on which branch is it commited?
dtavarez : I closed the PR and switch approach, not yet pushes
ardocrat :Anyone who has internet access :)
but who? because if one say: "payment will be done after review" you must have clear who will make the review so who ? who will make the commitment of going through the code and make the review of not just my work but others work
ardocrat :
dtavarez : but who? because if one say: "payment will be done after review" you must have clear who will make the review so who ? who will make the commitment of going through the code and make the review of not just my work but others work
CC and community members to get feedback, testing can have a period.
dtavarez : my god.
anynomous : That is the problem with having few devs around, few/no people find time to look in detail.
ardocrat : Bounty will be closed with approval from CC members
anynomous : But we still would require people with knowledge and time to look and review
dtavarez : suggesting that everything must be a bounty without having no one responsable of reviewing nothing is not just irresponsable but disrespectful
anynomous : I am not volunteering 😛
dtavarez : and the picking someone able to do it. who
anynomous : The idea itself is not bad, this was how it was done in the past since there were multiple devs on payrol but the reality is at the moment we do not have the manpower
vegycslol :
ardocrat : CC and community members to get feedback, testing can have a period.
that's in theory, the reality is that we are lacking manpower to actually do that. It would also make sense to pay the guy who would be performing checks (it's a lot of work). Then since he's paid someone would have to verify that he's actually doing a good job. And we have a problem :)
ardocrat :
anynomous : That is the problem with having few devs around, few/no people find time to look in detail.
Lets fix this, we can involve more people from community to get feedbacks from such bounties, @cekickafa is one of them, thus he is not developer.
defistaker : @dtavarez, there is no need to review full code, anyone can test new api endpoints from a client, if they are implemented and available to public for example. You just need to list new api endpoints available, I don't think this being disrespectful
ardocrat :
defistaker : @dtavarez, there is no need to review full code, anyone can test new api endpoints from a client, if they are implemented and available to public for example. You just need to list new api endpoints available, I don't think this being disrespectful
Exactly
dtavarez :
defistaker : @dtavarez, there is no need to review full code, anyone can test new api endpoints from a client, if they are implemented and available to public for example. You just need to list new api endpoints available, I don't think this being disrespectful
exactly.and that's why the CLI was added
defistaker : So there is CLI but no documentation for it, correct?
dtavarez : No.
vegycslol :
defistaker : @dtavarez, there is no need to review full code, anyone can test new api endpoints from a client, if they are implemented and available to public for example. You just need to list new api endpoints available, I don't think this being disrespectful
that might be ok for checking work of some reputable member like tavarez. For some random people you would actually need to check the code, because there might be intentional bad things which you would only spot by carefully checking the code
👍 anonymous
cekickafa : Before review, i would question the'' deliverables '' in the name of community.
anynomous : Yep, we need to be a bit more strict in checking deliverables in general
💯 cekickafa
ardocrat :
vegycslol : that might be ok for checking work of some reputable member like tavarez. For some random people you would actually need to check the code, because there might be intentional bad things which you would only spot by carefully checking the code
Sure it will take some time, we can not just give money to random people at same way :)
cekickafa : And i will expose it openly in community.
anynomous : Yes, review and feedback can be done in the Funding Request thread as well as on Github
👍 ardocrat
But still, we need to have such tasks assigned, or it will be left hanging. I mean, I love the idea of the Client and the new API, but not time to test or check deliverables
dtavarez : btw Grin++ is reviewed before merging into master :) not big deal just letting people know
anynomous : You ask @dburkett to review before merger, right?
dtavarez :
anynomous : You ask @dburkett to review before merger, right?
when is needed, yes and he very kindly responds when he has time
anynomous : But still, he does not check deliverables, so that is up to the community. So is the client code ready to be reviewed/tested by community members?
dtavarez : I never release code that:
I never release code that:
- doesn't work.
- does not respect the framework.
- is not secure.
- I don't feel comfortable with it.
- introduces some important change without being reviewed. if I work on something I will not rush it to please anyone and I will not work on something that I don't enjoy neither
vegycslol : 'i never release code that doesn't work' --> why are there bugfixes then? :D hehe joking ofc
dtavarez😊
dtavarez : True
defistaker : I think one can keep new feature codes in a separate branch, only commit reviewed changes to master or a protected branch, git allows to do that
👍 anonymous
dtavarez : it doesn't work like that, manonly works if you have a team. there is not team behind what I do
anynomous : Ok, so I understand it is not ready to review, correct?
dtavarez : is not ready.if it is not ready I'm not pushing it.why would I have to?
anynomous : That is fine, no problem, it just should be clear that that deliverable has not been finished yet.
dtavarez : I only push code that I am able to defend
👍 anonymous
if I don't feel comfortable with it, I don't push it. waste of everyone's time
anynomous : Ok, I think we are digressing from the main topic. We can move on to funding request discussions.
dtavarez : and I am sure I am not willing to open the door to trolls who want to "judge" my work without even knowing how to code not gonna happen.
anynomous : Not judging, just testing if it does what it should do.
👍 ardocrat
ardocrat :
dtavarez : waste of everyone's time
No no, its good view of progress, so nobody can said Grin is dead :)
anynomous : For me personally, as I stated before on the forum, I want to be more frugal with the CC funds, so I want wide community support to endorse funding requests, at the moment I think we lack feedback from the community on both requests. What are the opinions from community members present here on these specific funding requests or in general?
dtavarez :
ardocrat : No no, its good view of progress, so nobody can said Grin is dead :)
do you know how to code? or work as a software engineer in development or how many years of experience writing code do you have?
ardocrat :
anynomous : For me personally, as I stated before on the forum, I want to be more frugal with the CC funds, so I want wide community support to endorse funding requests, at the moment I think we lack feedback from the community on both requests. What are the opinions from community members present here on these specific funding requests or in general?
We can not see results from January-April funding requests, so I see no reasons to keep this type of funding, my suggestion is to switch to bounties and pay only for already done work.
👍syntajax
anynomous : Ok, noted. We did see some nice progress in screenshot, but ya, we cannot validate/test
dtavarez : all questions have already been answered several times and I had explicitly asked for feedback before, as I have always done and always do... why this meeting is more focus on me? I didn't know I was so important
ardocrat :
dtavarez : how many years of experience writing code do you have?
I worked 5 years at big corporarion, later startups only and yes, we committed our work everyday.
dtavarez :
ardocrat : I worked 5 years at big corporarion, later startups only and yes, we committed our work everyday.
that wasn't the question you didn't answer. do not waste my time if you have no clue what are you talking about. i have a life
ardocrat :
anynomous Ok, noted. We did see some nice progress in screenshot, but ya, we cannot validate/test
Community can test binaries to give feedback as we have cases how it worked.
dtavarez : i have a life
Get a life then
dtavarez : I recommend you to get a life
anynomous : Guys, lets cool down and not make this personal
👍 ardocrat, cekickafa
Everyone is free to have an opinion. I think for the moment we are running in overtime and the other community members have left, so I think it is hard to go for a vote. We need to bump these funding requests and get some more discussion going on the forum.
dtavarez :
anynomous : Everyone is free to have an opinion.
I find it suspicious that questions that I have already answered several times before are all brought to me at the same meeting. Just saying. just that
anynomous : I think it is just something that is in general 'hanging in the air', that people are feeling or considering if we need to change the system. This is so funny, because it always repeats, no matter what system we have, these kind of discussion always pop-up once every year or so 😛
👍 ardocrat
But that is not a bad thing, it allows us all to iterate, reflect and make incremental changes and improvements on how governance is done.
dtavarez : because people are generally toxic behind a keyword no matter the system
anynomous : In this case, as single full time developer working for the CC/community, you are taken as example. But it is in general a reflection if we are doing proper reviewing, checking of deliverables, should we pay afterwards etc.
👍 ardocrat
ardocrat :
anynomous : In this case, as single full time developer working for the CC/community, you are taken as example. But it is in general a reflection if we are doing proper reviewing, checking of deliverables, should we pay afterwards etc.
I can see only @yeastplume as full time developer here :)
anynomous : Yeastplume is working full time for OC, David is effectively working full time for CC/Community, based on individual funding requests
dtavarez : I have very little interest to none in dealing with anyone's daddy issues reflected in toxicity, please keep me out of it.
anynomous : Ok, I am signing of for today. I think we can move all (civil) discussions to the forum. Lets keep those objective, not on the person, but on the system. Bye all (meeting closed)
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Gk @satoshocrat refund request on forum page for missing GK tasks funded Jan-Apr 2023.
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Feedback from community for request for funding @cekickafa May-Aug 2023 & funding request @dtavarez May-Aug 2023
Meeting adjourned.