Community Council (CC) meeting held @ 10:00 UTC in grincoin#general channel on Keybase. Meeting lasted 140 min.
Notes are truncated, and conversations sorted based on topic and not always chronological. Quotes are edited for brevity and clarity, and not always exact.
- l33d4n
- anynomous
- cekickafa
- future3ooo
- CC Role definition, obligations and duties are being dicussed.
- Adding new CC members or removing existing CC members options had been discussed, future3ooo is to open a forum discussion for more feedback from the community.
- GrinCC wallet report situation, how to track payments has being discussed.
- Funding requests vs Bounties funding methods (advantage/disadvantages) has been discussed
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Last meeting notes here: https://github.com/grincc/agenda/tree/main/notes
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Current meeting agenda
anynomous : For todays agenda, lets take 2 minutes to read it. If anyone would like to add a topic to the agenda, let us know now.
l33d4n : The first topic discussed in the forum and the PR merged, thanks to @phyro
🚀 anonymous, future3ooo
anynomous : Regarding last meetings #TO DO's
- Feedback and Updating Grin.Mw page, @l33d4n proposed some changes, done
- Grant Grincc access to Groundskeeper for better management proccess, done.
cekickafa : yes, i got the Github access, #TODO list is 👍
l33d4n :
l33d4n : The first topic discussed in the forum and the PR merged, thanks to @phyro
From now on I will try to keep this page updated after each payment
👍 anonymous, cekickafa
anynomous : For our first agenda point of today.
Added this section:
Grin Community Council members are primarily representatives of the community and are keyholders of the communit funds. They are expected to responsibly manage the keys of the community fund wallets and manage Funding Requests and Bounties in accordance with the spending guidelines. Although preferred, being an active community member is not a requirement. If a council member cannot participate in the councils activities for a prolonged time, he or she is requested to consider stepping down if more suitable representatives are available. Decision making on funding request as well as defining, checking and reviewing deliverables is a community effort.
Update grin-council.md by Anynomouss · Pull Request #11 · grincc/docs.(grincc/docs#11) Added to clarify that defining, checking and reviewing deliverables is a community effort. Grin CC members are primarily representatives and key-holders. Improve the phrasing where needed.
I simply added Obligations of Grin Community Council members, to clarify their tasks as well as what responsibilities are with the community as a whole Now lets be clear, that does not solve issues such as having for example few people willing or capable or reviewing code or taking on other tasks, but I think it is an important step to make expectations clear.
👍johndavies
Any input on this topic is welcome.
l33d4n : exactly. It makes it clear that the responsibility is on all of us as community.How about the other CC members? they agree with the definition? because only the two of you review it in 2 weeks.
anynomous : Indeed, which means as much as, be change you want to see. Anyone is welcome to critisize or make suggestions, but in the end we need the muscle and enthusiasm of the community to get things done. Three CC members had a look at it in total, one is taking a break, the other is busy with his company.
cekickafa : Who is taking a break ?
anynomous : I think they agree, but it does show there is a shortage of time from CC members to review or take on tasks. David took a break, he is just focusing on finish his work as developer, he took on too many hanging CC taks in the last half year, which is appreciated but took to much time for him. Actually most of us are doing this in practice, being on and off in activity but available for priority tasks such as signing and voting for proposals.
future3ooo :
l33d4n : How about the other CC members? they agree with the definition?
I guess they have to agree now.
anynomous : Yes, also, that is why we define how many votes we need for changes in different Github sections. For the document section, we only need two CC members to agree to make a change.
cekickafa : But for financials it needs 4 person.
l33d4n :
anynomous : David took a break, he is just focusing on finish his work as developer, he took on too many hanging CC taks in the last half year, which is appreciated but took to much time for him.
Can you define what is mean "break"? Because most of the CC task like reviews need 2/6 members or 4/6 for payments.
anynomous : Exactly, because that is where it would be risky to have only two votes required. Just that, taking a break. He was stressed with all the critisism as well as with all the extra CC tasks, so two of us just proposed for him to take a break.
cekickafa : Maybe better him, fully focus on development.
anynomous : Yes, I think so. Especially now since he did not finish the objectives for the last funding requests.
future3ooo :
anynomous : Just that, taking a break. He was stressed with all the critisism as well as with all the extra CC tasks, so two of us just proposed for him to take a break.
I wasn't aware. But okay.
anynomous : Well, it is nothing official, but in practice he is one of the most active CC and now he is not active much.
future3ooo : Looks like he's not in in CC TG group anymore?
cekickafa : He left main channels as well.TG i mean.
l33d4n :
anynomous : Well, it is nothing official, but in practice he is one of the most active CC and now he is not active much.
So the plan is to leave the situation as it is? If you say only 2-3 CC members can take an active part even minimally
anynomous : Yes, maybe he wants to drop CC altogether, it is up to him. First he should take break. No, I say 5 members are available for the tasks which are required, which is voting and signing. All the others tasks are appreciated but not obligatory.
future3ooo :
l33d4n : So the plan is to leave the situation as it is? If you say only 2-3 CC members can take an active part even minimally
We should considering removing/ electing new members
👍 l33d4n, ardocrat, cekickafa
l33d4n :
anynomous : No, I say 5 members are available for the tasks which are required, which is voting and signing. All the others tasks are appreciated but not obligatory.
But right now there is a PR waiting for review for two weeks, or a payment to @cekickafa that was approved a week ago and the PR is still waiting. It doesn't really work because not all the 5 are available.
anynomous : The payment to Cecky was approved, to be honest, I forgot to ask the other CC members until 4 days ago. It is now lacking one last signature.
cekickafa :
future3ooo : Or adding additional active members maybe.
👍 l33d4n
anynomous : I think we can consider new flesh blood on the CC, might make it easier to reach tresholds for voting and signing.
But lets leave discussion for later, first we need to probe how many CC members would like to keep on or step down.
l33d4n :
future3ooo : We should considering removing/ electing new members
As a CC member, can you start a post on the forum so we can discuss this issue with the community?
👍 future3ooo
future3ooo : Yup. Was just gonna say this.
anynomous : Lets mark that as a #TO DO
👍 cekickafa
Lets move on to the next topic.
future3ooo :
anynomous : But lets leave discussion for later, first we need to probe how many CC members would like to keep on or step down.
Will make a forum post
👍 l33d4n, anonymous, cekickafa
anynomous : The financial reports have been merged, but there is a discrepency in the CC's Grin wallet
l33d4n :
future3ooo : Will make a forum post.
I can do it too but it would be a "last seen" tables and charts, too personal. better if someone else can start it 😅
👍 future3ooo
anynomous : Since the last meeting I set up a archive node, since I expected this would allow to scan the whole history for outputs and as such transactions. Unfortunately the grin-rust wallet scans through the whole blockchain as a single block, since that is way more efficient. The downside is that historic transactions do not get reconstructed when scanning the blockchain
future3ooo :
l33d4n : I can do it too but it would be a "last seen" tables and charts, too personal. better if someone else can start it
Yeah someone from CC def needs to start it. So that will be me
anynomous : So now I requested fromt the other CC member who has the CC Grin node and wallet to send me his backup. I had many times to reinstall my wallet and node, I think he had nearly 100% uptime, so probably a good history of the CC Grin transactions.
future3ooo : How much is it out by?
anynomous : I will update when I get his transaction history and had time to figure out which transaction was missing or wrongly copied to the documents. It might be for example a plus or minus switched. Not sure, let me check. @l33d4n , do you remember how much it was?
cekickafa : i think Miner payouts should be separate report better maybe. So minus and plus dont mix much.
l33d4n :
anynomous : @l33d4n , do you remember how much it was?
-260K but I found some mistakes so should be lower, maybe -160-180K
anynomous : Ok. I will update when I get the backup
l33d4n : The most important question is how to avoid a similar situation in the future?
cekickafa : Well, miner payouts should be separete repo firstly. Since Grin has no adress , no amounts. It is hard to match up.
anynomous : I do not think there is a perfect way to avoid it. Well I hope that in time to the grin rust node a function can be added to do a deep scan and reconstruct spend transactions. One way to avoid would be more regular accounting I guess, the more often you do it, the smaller the chance anything gets missed. Also I run a full archive node now, which is always online. I did not do so before. So I hope it will help in keeping the full transaction history.
l33d4n : Is this something that can be avoided by real-time accounting? the wallet holders will update the GK or directly in the repo every week? I'm not sure how it works
anynomous : It would help if for exaple xpub wallets get implemented. In that case @cekickafa can monitor all transactions.
👍 cekickafa
l33d4n : Yes, but we need a solution that can be implemented right now. From now on.
future3ooo : https://github.com/grincc/finance/blob/main/grincc-wallet.md
2022-02-22 08:00:00 2022-02-22 08:00:00 -69306.0 Grin bought using BTC funds
Shouldn't that be +
anynomous : Mostly, the problem are just the technical downside of having a blockchain that is very good at removing unnecessary data and blinding transaction amounts 😂
👍 cekickafa, future3ooo
l33d4n : The CC members who hold the wallet, can update the GK after each payment or once a week?
cekickafa : each payment is better.
👍l33d4n
l33d4n : Just a quick solution with what we have now.
anynomous : I will think a bit if there is an easy way for me to automate that.
cekickafa : I draft the tx > send to >CC and make a > PR. They approve.
anynomous : For grin you mean?
cekickafa : Sure why not ? For payments.
anynomous : Well, it would make my life easier.
👍 cekickafa
cekickafa : I mean aldready done this way but for inputs, idk
l33d4n :
anynomous : I will think a bit if there is an easy way for me to automate that.
Until you find automate way. can we use the solution I suggested? to avoid a similar situation.
anynomous : I have to go now. I will leave by anouncing the next topic and a short summary of previous discussions
• + Bounties are well defined and paid after delivery and review of objectives, so you know what you get and how much you pay for it in advance. • + Bounties can potentially attract new and different type of developers. • - Bounties do not appeal to most long-term developers who also need certainty, who have fixed costs and for development that is sometimes hard to estimate the duration of
• **Conclusion from previous discussions:
• We need both bounties and FR Both have their uses o Funding Requests developers with a good track record and for hard to define tasks, e.g. maintenance and continues development and o bounties for clearly defined deliverables and tasks to be taken on by anyone.
• Example gratia 1) clearly define deliverables and their pay in Funding Requests and optionally 2) pay after completion of tasks instead of upfront and 3) no new requests before finishing old funding requests. • More frequent updates, e.g. biweekly bullet points update to make sure development keeps on track with the promised deliverables and tasks.
I will read later what came out of the discussion. See you all, thanks for being here today
future3000 : I'd like to see us move more towards bounties.
👍l33d4n, angler1
l33d4n : I want a clear solution about the GRIN wallet from now on. If it is not possible to make it automatic then weekly updates.
future3000 : We can barely manage bi-weekly meetings. weekly updates sounds like a push
l33d4n : In the end it's money from the CC fund that went out to buy "money printers" that we as a community have no way to know how much they print.
future3000 : We can barely manage bi-weekly meetings. weekly updates sounds like a push
Updates for our GK, no meetings are needed for this. Only 2 CC members holding the wallet so they can just DM him or push PR.
future3000 : So you want to see regular accounting from the mining farm payouts?
l33d4n : it does not make sense? 😳 I have no idea how the payments work, but I think a weekly update by the GK is simple @cekickafa can you do it? If they give you this information?
👍 cekickafa
cekickafa : yes, i can do it only i can get data anyway😀
angler1 : Isn't the point to maintain appropriate accounts?
l33d4n : Only GRIN can make me feel crazy to suggest such ideas.
angler1 : If what is needed is a balance of accounts, then updating this monthly should be adequate when new distributions are made with payments for bounties
l33d4n : Imagine... appropriate accounts.There is no other way. I can point on every accounting failure made with the community funds to prove it but it will be much simpler to fix and solve it from now on.
future3000 :
l33d4n : it does not make sense?
It does 😁 it's just that wallet doesn't have much activity aside from mining payouts
l33d4n : So that makes it simpler, doesn't it? As we get a new payment or just once a week all they have to do is to update the GK. like I really not get it, what we even talking about or where the problem is. really.
cekickafa : Payment in-out. Out part can be tracked by me.
future3000 :
l33d4n : So that makes it simpler, doesn't it? As we get a new payment or just once a week all they have to do is to update the GK.
Yeah it does, but I'm not sure how often the Grin CC wallet gets paid out. That needs to be clarified first. Also, If you really want to audit it then you need to monitor the pool address.
l33d4n : well I will have to ask on the forum because there is only 2 CC members holding this wallet and one of them on break so not sure how to get the answers
👍 future3ooo
but tbh I just want updated reports. It probably needs to be audited, but the reports alone will be enough for me
👍 future3ooo
I can tell you that from my experience with 3-4 GRIN wallets and 30+ transfers daily for 2.5+ years, I have never had any accounting issues. This whole thing doesn't make sense but right now I just want to stop digging this issue and to find a solution from now on
👍johndavies
vegycslol : how viable is it to publicly announce view key for this account? how likely is it for someone to exploit a bug and use view key to spend those coins?
👍 future3ooo ,anonymous.
if there's a view key one could create a page which would fetch all this data and could show all mining kernels, incoming and outgoing transactions from this account.i'm assuming this, not sure if the api is there etc
l33d4n : All these ideas are good. really. Automations and API and everything that the technical members here suggested. I don't understand it, but I know that accounting is simple if you do it right and on time. Like it's your own money. Sending DM with 2 lines to our GK one time per week can solve it from now on There is no excuse that can justify this situation or leave it as it is when the solution is so simple
future3000 :
l33d4n : I can tell you that from my experience with 3-4 GRIN wallets and 30+ transfers daily for 2.5+ years, I have never had any accounting issues.
We need to work this out. But there are 2x sperate things to address:
-The grin wallet doesn’t balance (Assume some of that is to do with miner pay-outs but most of that is probably to do with other transactions)
-Majority of wallet activity moving forward is going to be from the mining farm. So, CC should decide on the miner pay out frequency to CC wallet, so GK has a reporting schedule. The CC mining farm dashboard should also be accessible to all, so unpaid balances can be tracked.
l33d4n :
future3000 : We need to work this out. But there are 2x sperate things to address:
-The grin wallet doesn’t balance (Assume some of that is to do with miner pay-outs but most of that is probably to do with other transactions)
-Majority of wallet activity moving forward is going to be from the mining farm. So, CC should decide on the miner pay out frequency to CC wallet, so GK has a reporting schedule. The CC mining farm dashboard should also be accessible to all, so unpaid balances can be tracked.
It would be useful if you can add this to the post on the forum too, personally I know nothing about mining or how the payment works but good to have this information when checking solutions with the other members
future3000 : That's prob a separate post, will discuss with others first, so I have more details. Also, don't want to side track a post about the changing of CC members Anyway, I'm off to bed. Will make a post as discussed tomorrow.
vegycslol : I just want to say that changing of cc members is a dangerous thing and should be done only if it's extremely necessary imo. Spending funds requires 4/6, so 3 CC members can decide to demand payment otherwise they won't sign any transaction (so funds lost). In addition, voting on forum can be gamed easily, someone just needs to predict that in the future there will be another vote, create a few accounts, be active with them and then spam likes to them. Sooner or later someone will do that imo since it's easy money.
future3000 : The first stage, is seeing which members still want to remain.
vegycslol : not only that, also which members would want to be in the CC. If 3 members leave and nobody reputable wants to join, i would rather not replace the existing ones honestly
l33d4n :
vegycslol : I just want to say that changing of cc members is a dangerous thing and should be done only if it's extremely necessary imo. Spending funds requires 4/6, so 3 CC members can decide to demand payment otherwise they won't sign any transaction (so funds lost).
I suggested to change the payment system to bounties to avoid the situation you mentioned about the fake votes: https://forum.grin.mw/t/cc-fund-expenses-responsibilities-spending-guidelines-and-follow-up-processes/10522/71#funding-requests-vs-bounties-6
I don't think it solves everything but at least part of it.
vegycslol : changing it to bounties doesn't help if the signers are corrupt
l33d4n : But this is a start. So far the signers haven't even checked what they signed or what we got then...
vegycslol : yeah but it's the same problem with bounties, someone needs to verify what's being delivered.
l33d4n : The idea to switch to bounties is to stop the flow of the wasted funds, it doesn't solve everything and personally I don't think that things must be funded at any given moment. There are so many things that could be done by volunteers if the information was more accessible like just stop with the funding for a while, we just need one GK to keep everything running for the community and we can focus on subteams or other ideas to works on
keybase://chat/grincoin#general/58878
vegycslol : The CC members must be honest, otherwise we lose all CC coins. Maybe it's better if someone gets paid to be a shepherd and verify the deliverables? not sure what's a good thing to do. I understand the point of bounties, i'm not against them.
l33d4n : exactly! but the current CC members are not exactly active for months, that's why I suggested to freeze the fund until we find a solution and using bounties ONLY for necessary or urgent developments other things can just wait until we find out better way, there is no point keep spending funds at the moment also I think adding more members should be more easy than removing some. Or maybe even different permissions for different CC members, some new with access to the Github to speed things up/reviewing things and the existing members will remain key holders as long as they can spend one hour a month to sign transactions It's not black or white. We need to think about it together, but in the end it is impossible to leave the situation as it is. The CC is not functioning at the moment with 1.5 active members. future3000 suggested you, renzokuken and John Davies. maybe 3 new CC members can help with the Github reviewing part or help to start subteams so the community will be able to take active parts like keeping the CC website updated and other things...
vegycslol : the time i want to invest in grin is mostly to develop something that someone might find useful, i'm not willing to commit to CC and deal with everything that comes with it
l33d4n : That's exactly the problem, the community is too small. "everything that comes with it" is the time that is wasted on useless meetings and endless discussions with all the pc that have zero impact. no one want to spend time about this things so just maybe its time to change it? like the last 4-5 meetings we been here just few ppl talking about obvious issues, if you want to make impact "hat someone might find useful" you can improve it from inside, to make it easy for other to join
its like the "one dev" narrative. how other ppl can join when they can't find the information they're looking for or someone to review their PR for months? new CC members with some tech skills can help to change it
👍 cekickafa
I'm not trying to push you, just thinking people like you, renzokuken and John Davies with technical knowledge can contribute if things was less exhausting here, just need to change the system a bit to make it comfort to do it
vegycslol : being in the CC and making such decisions would not be something i would enjoy and i believe people should stick to contributing in ways which make them happy (otherwise they leave sooner imo), so i'll keep doing what makes me happy :)
l33d4n : Much respect for your honesty.
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Forum discussion about considering removing/ electing/ adding new members to GrinCC.
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Review of Financial PR.
Meeting adjourned.