Octothorpe_109.srt

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 Oh, have you know, I've carefully booked my holiday between recording dates for once.

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 What? That is some commitment. That is that very impressive. My holiday's in Glasgow,

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 guys, I don't know about the rest of you. Oh no, no, this is my one of my other holiday.

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 [laughs]

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 Hello everyone and welcome to the very 109th episode of Octa Thorpe, a podcast for Science Fiction

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 and Science Fiction fandom which is coming to you on the 9th of May 2024. I'm John Goxon.

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 I'm Alison Scott and I'm Liz Batty and we have a bumper mailbag this week and I'm going to hand

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 over to Liz to start us off. Yes, so we got a letter of comment from Abigail Nussbaum

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 who is talking about our discussion of best related book nominations and big

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 or less decalises withdrawn nomination and she would like to support an ad to our reservations

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 where the point we didn't make which is that this tweet was also a marketing tweet and she says

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 we were in a period which authors have been forced by the publishing industry to become their own PRM

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 marketers and this is often translated into transforming critical and fandom spaces into

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 marketing spaces. So basically her objection is on an extra level of saying, okay, here are some

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 critical works engaging with the genre and here is basically a piece of viral marketing and we're

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 putting these kind of on the same level which is very interesting and so she says she finds

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 the choice to decline the nomination very classy. Also says, "P.S. many thanks for mentioning my

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 forthcoming book but I was a tattle armed by John's Dark Tone when he admitted to typesetting it

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 something I should know." That's just a reflection of my general grim take on the universe and my

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 pessimism about the world as we know it which I think really comes through on Octa Thorpe. Abigail's

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 book is called Track Changes and I believe it is launching at Glasgow so if you're interested in

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 books or conventions look both of those up. We forgot to say that last time but I think the

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 name Track Changes is absolutely brilliant and excellent and excellent name for a book. It is good.

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 We heard from Ally Baker Brooks who says as our infrequent children and YA correspondent

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 she recommends a collection called Lowborn High by David Barnett Anna-Modersova and Mike Walters

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 and this is a comic. If you enjoy the Chilling Adventures of Sabrina Wednesday and other magical

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 school stories but wondered what happened to the kids whose families couldn't afford private

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 school fees this one's for you and yeah that sounds pretty great thank you very much for writing in

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 Ally. We heard from Caroline Mullen we got a long letter from Caroline on three topics. Firstly

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 she says that she chose which items to go and see in person at the convention having noted that

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 they would not be available on catch-up which is very clever. I did not think of that that would

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 have been a good thing to think of. She pointed out that we had at least one talk where the person

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 who gave the talk was constrained by their employment and so it was going to be available on catch-up

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 and points out we'd much rather have stopped like that than not have it and she's quite right.

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 She also mentioned it would be good to know when your category of stream statistics how many people

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 are not watching the program because they are chilling in their hotel room watching the program

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 and as somebody who's actually done this now I I can confirm it's quite a good way to watch

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 program but it's probably not so good for the people who are at the actually giving the program

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 who may get a room full of nobody while people are watching from their hotel room which is not as

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 much fun. Liz and I have done this we watched the opening ceremony from ChaiCon 8 streaming from our

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 hotel room on account of how the room was well busy and that was one instance where our presence

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 would not have helped necessarily. To spoil Andrew January's lock which is coming up listeners

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 slightly Andrew says out of 181 program participants one program participant opted out of live streaming

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 and seven opted out of catch-up which led to 18 out of 157 items not being on catch-up and I found

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 that really interesting because it's four percent of participants opted out which resulted in 11 percent

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 of items being unavailable and it is interesting how that can have a like disproportionate effect I

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 don't know what I think about that yet but I found it interesting. That's because of panels and I

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 would be preferentially selecting people from for panels unless it's a panel that will not work

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 without an individual. I think we should be making it clear to people that they are less likely to

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 be selected for panels if they've chosen not to choose to catch up but you know this is just me

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 and I'm like a mad catch-up enthusiast so. Yeah and you also don't have any problem being on stuff

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 that's on catch-up. I mean I don't want to say that we would deparatise people because people

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 have different reasons for not being on catch-up and at the moment is the majority of people who

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 are happy with it so the ones who are not either the you know possibly they're not used to it or

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 possibly they have really serious reasons for not wanting to be on catch-up and you would miss

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 might miss a whole segment of people if you said that. I think it's fine it's just

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 so you'd want to make a decision on an individual basis. I'm not saying don't use those people

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 I'm saying if you've got person A who's great and is happy to be on person catch-up and person B who's

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 roughly as great in a slightly different way and not happy to be on catch-up then use person A.

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 Do you ever really have a situation where you have two people who like you might have that

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 individual panel basis but if you look and say okay all the people who are worried about say

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 potential harassment on the internet for their gender presentation say they're locked out then

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 you end up with a situation where you you end up with a lot of people a whole population who are

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 not there in the program even if on an individual level you can replace them with other people.

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 I don't know who's opting out yeah that's the thing we don't know and it would be interesting

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 to know why if anyone does opt out of catch-up and is happy for us to discuss it then please

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 let us know but they may also not want to email into a podcast and discuss it.

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 Caroline also talks about great benefit of streaming programs is for the people who for those people

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 who sometimes need time away from all the people during the con therefore streaming program is an

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 aid to accessibility and I think that's probably true and the third part of Caroline's lock she maybe

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 has a unique perspective on accessibility in that she uses scooter for the first time at levitation

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 and so she said she had the best of both worlds a relatively small scooter that fitted into the

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 public lift and the ability to get off it easily when she needed to because she's somebody who just

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 uses a scooter to help with the fact that her knees are not doing what they used to do she

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 found it very difficult to bring it back to the international hotel in charge and I think that's

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 something that is an issue for wilcon as well and there I know that they're talking about scooter

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 management and how they deal with people who might not be in an immediately local hotel but are

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 going to have a scooter and she says that scooter users was probably slightly better served at the

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 easter con she chaired which is probably true but I'm going to go haha this is the thing that easter

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 con chairs do for the rest of their lives in my experience and one of the things that comes out

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 of the discussions we're having is that you can have different perspectives on what there can be

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 two venues two people with very similar access requests can prefer one venue or the other venue

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 depending on very slightly different priorities and this is one of the difficult things it is not a

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 linear space of just not too accessible it is some very non-linear 3d space where there are lots of

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 considerations and there is no venue that meets all of them perfectly and so yeah I think I think

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 Caroline noting that from her perspective the Hilton Metropolitan was better is useful feedback

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 thank you very much Caroline yeah I mean I would say a venue on one floor does cut out a lot of

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 access issues but then I had some extra ones with people who cannot walk far enough for the long

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 distances so yeah we also heard from DC who sent us the very nice lock we read last time

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 and they just wanted to point out that the calm was very supportive and it was clearly a priority

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 of the calm and they did excellently intricate at gold star Andrew January wrote because we talked

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 about his hard work on the East Com last episode and said a couple of things he was very quick to thank

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 other people on the team including including the tech and the rest of the committee which of

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 course is fair it was not something that he did alone he has done a write-up of the

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 members portal and why he thinks it was successful and we will link to that write-up in the show notes

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 he thinks that we should have a software engineer on the East Com committee and I think one of the

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 things we'll be talking about in a future episode is the way in which the requirements for East

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 Com which is not that big a convention continue to spin larger and larger and how practical this

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 is and then he talks and this is the thing that's really interesting about the stats on streaming

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 and ketchup which is a decision taken by the committee he says speaking personally and not for the

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 committee there are a lot of factors that contribute to why something does or does not get a lot of

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 people watching it and very few of those factors are how good a doubt how good individual participants

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 are on the panel and he would recommend against releasing the full stats publicly but he has

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 passed they have passed the full stats on to Glasgow and intend to release some summary statistics

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 I don't know whether they've done that yet but this would probably be quite a good time because

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 the East Com ketchup has now closed thank you very much for hanging in Andrew that was very

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 interesting stuff and it was good good context yeah good stuff thank you we heard from Mark Plummer

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 a fan historian researcher extraordinaire who says that he liked the site more than he expected

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 and was surprised by how well the holiday in bar worked Ailes points out that at 450ish it would

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 be the smallest East Conson 2007 and that was in some ways a special case because it was the kind

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 of emergency rescue Eastacom and that he thinks before that you'd have to go back to 1974 to find

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 an Eastacom of that size which is interesting I had registered it was small but not registered

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 quite how small and Mark says it might be useful to try and find out how many people didn't go

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 for site related reasons and how many for for other reasons you know then if we go back to

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 Telford we know how many people didn't go just because it was Telford he also looked it up and

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 the Telford International Centre dates from 1987 ages ago that is interesting thank you very much

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 Mark we had an email from Jacob Holder who writes in saying my name is Jacob and I'm interested to

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 know of what a first timers view of Eastacom would look like I'm a massive fan of science

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 fiction and fantasy books but not so much TV shows and films is it basically still worth a punt for me

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 yes yes it is Eastcon skews much more towards books than um TV and films especially relative to

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 other science fiction conventions um so yes I would say you might very much enjoy Eastcon Jacob I was

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 slightly shocked by this lock because I think it reminded us that we don't talk a lot about what

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 Eastacom actually is but because it's the national convention and because it's um there'll be 75 of

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 them at the point where Eastacom started there weren't any sites I have very few

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 science fiction films um and no science fiction TV shows so TV and Filmers had to sort of catch up

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 with where the Eastacom's at and the Eastacom has had to catch up with the fact that a lot of

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 people get their science fiction ways out of the books but there is a still a ton of stuff there

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 for people who read books which of course all of us do and I think most people at the Eastacom are

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 people who get a lot of science fiction from books that they obviously also see yeah no if you like

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 books definitely come to Eastacom you also might like to come to Wollcon Jacob just saying yeah but

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 it also looks like if you went to uh your own literary con at London Comic Con you could add on

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 a photo with Colin Baker she probably won't get a Wollcon I got a photo with David Tedda

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 to London Con was that primarily because you were on the committee and I did not have to pay 10

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 pounds for it at the Hugo reception yes so this leads us very neatly onto the second part of

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 Jacob's letter which is a question about volunteering any views on volunteering for Eastacom would be

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 appreciated as I do enjoy volunteering every Eastacom does volunteering slightly differently I think

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 that's fair to say um if you'd like volunteering my suggestion would be either email uh the East

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 Quantine Advancees say I'm interested in volunteering what could I volunteer for because there's never

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 enough people signing up in advance of the convention but if you are at the convention and you want to

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 volunteer but I think starting with registration Green Room or ops as like central places where

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 people exist and can give you help might be good good starts I'm going to say registration or ops I

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 think Green Room probably don't want random people coming in volunteering but you know they probably

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 won't buy that much but they might just take you round to ops there's a sort of what do you like

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 question about volunteering because so Green Room has a lot of being nice to programme participants

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 some of whom will be quite stressed out um tech has a lot of fixing cables and stuff um ops tends

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 to have a lot of kind of looking sitting in places and making sure that people are wearing badges or

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 or checking or taking things from one place to another so you have it's kind of what sort of

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 things do you like to do newsletter has a lot of um trying to write short funny articles against

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 considerable time pressure it when when people have given you long boring articles you know that's

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 sort of thing. Farra Mendelson wrote in to say that on an episode of the Critical Friends podcast

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 which is the Strange Horizons podcast about criticism. Paul Kincaid joined them to discuss

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 various things obviously Maureen Kincaid's brother came up and Paul said she resisted any

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 suggestion that she should publish a collection um so that closes the loop on something we mentioned

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 last episode thank you very much Farra. I wonder why I need to start listening to Critical Friends

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 because I I love podcasts about criticism and about about you know about sausages you know about

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 sausage making for any of the sorts of sausages I make does that make sense um and we also heard

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 finally from Meg Mcdonald who says that she thinks Liz also has a dirty laugh but she can see how

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 it might have just seemed she meant the live show um so Liz you're dirty thank you Meg I feel like

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 you should deliver a dirty laugh that's funny yes don't we get we also heard from my ex-husband

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 okay and that was letters thank you very much everyone for writing in yeah we did get a bumper post

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 bag

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 Dave Langford has received the Dockweer Award which was delivered to him in a carrier bag yeah we've

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 got a photo here yeah I will put a photo in the show notes I do very much enjoy that in the picture

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 Dave is holding a Tesco bag for life they could have literally anything in it there there's no

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 evidence that the Dockweer Award is in it let's start the truth the conspiracy here where is the Dockweer

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 Award Alison do you want to talk about Guff? Yes I do um so we have a winner in the Guff race who is

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 Cat Clay congratulations Cat Cat will be attending the Worldcon she's going to be arriving in the

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 country uh a little bit over a week before Worldcon and she will come to London we will have some kind

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 of fanish event and by that I mean we will get together in a pub so that if you're in London and

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 not going to the Worldcon you still have a chance to meet Cat or if you're in London and going to the

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 Worldcon you can hang out with such fiction fans before the Worldcon that probably be Monday or

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 Tuesday of Worldcon week and then she is going up to Worldcon on the Wednesday so she said maybe

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 we should have some sort of event meet-up event on Wednesday night and I said I think you will find

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 that meet-up events exist on the Wednesday night before Worldcon um and and we will just tag on

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 to one of them um I bet they'll be I bet they'll be say a pub crawl that seems likely doesn't it

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 and other things of that kind and then Worldcon and then the following week she's going to

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 the thing about Cat is that she writes novels that are kind of

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 Regency novels based on the ksuhoo mythos which is a word I cannot pronounce and which is very

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 interesting and so she is desperate to visit Buxton which as fans will know is somewhere that we

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 often have conventions so the week in the in the time after Worldcon she's probably going to visit

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 York and Buxton and Manchester so if you're in any of those places do um write in and we'll

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 we'll tell you what's going on there and then she is going to be going I think we haven't actually

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 sorted all the details out but we are expecting to go to the Eurocom in Rotterdam so she will get

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 to meet European fandom there and then she is planning to go on to Beuland and meet some

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 bonish fans before flying back to Australia so that seems pretty exciting to me well done cat

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 commiserations to Ian Nichols who was the losing candidate and was very sad for about 48 hours

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 because he was like well this was going to be my last chance ever to attend a Worldcon

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 unless it came back to Australia and then then he worked out that he can actually come to Worldcon

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 by buying the world's strangest and cheapest airline tickets so he is coming to Worldcon as well

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 so that's great so we will see Ian at Worldcon too so hey thanks to everybody who voted or has

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 contributed to the fanfans in any way whatsoever and I'm looking forward to hanging out with Kat in

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 August and hopefully introduced her to as many of you as possible hey

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 on the 2nd of May Ersatz Culture friend of the pod posted a or sorry sent an article to Farsatz

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 70 entitled the PDU district of Chengdu announces a 10 year science fiction plan and this has made

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 a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move that's a riff it was posted to Farsatz

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 70 by Ersatz Culture but Zimozi Natsuko a Chinese fan posted it onto the Worldcon business meeting

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 discord a little while before so I don't know if they found it at the same time but that was the

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 place where I saw it and just because to say like when this sort of stuff comes out obviously I am

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 not scanning for it I would never see this it needs someone to read it and go oh hey wait they're

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 talking about Worldcon and Hugo's and maybe we should try and translate this just say this was

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 posted on April 8th you know we are possibly missing out on a lot of announcements that get made

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 in websites we're not reading this is another one in Asatz Culture's Strandon file 770 of

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 finding interesting Worldcon and Hugo related stuff which is posted on websites only in Chinese

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 and then he basically machine translates and tweaks them so bear in mind that this is all coming

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 from a machine translation but it is called notes on the action plan what's on the issuance of the

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 action plan for the construction of Chengdu Science Fiction Centre in Pidu District 2023 to 2033

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 so this is a very long plan about essentially boosting this part of Chengdu into a science

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 fiction centre and a lot of is about kind of integrating with technology branding business

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 stuff etc but there are some bits which Asatz Culture has accepted which are probably relevant

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 to science fiction fans and specifically the ones reading file 770 because they include things

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 like Strive to Create or Introduce More Than Two Hugo Award-nominated works and 100 science fiction

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 themed IPs within three years broke top domestic and foreign IPs such as the Hugo Awards extend the

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 brand effect of the Worldcon implement the conference brand inheritance plan I don't know

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 what brand inheritance plan is strive for authorization from the World Science Fiction Society and

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 strive to apply for the Worldcon again within five years so basically this is a kind of

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 official local government plan which involves bidding for Worldcon again and getting nominated

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 for Hugo's which is a really interesting thing to see in a local government plan it is but also a

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 worrying one yeah so so I think it's fair to say that there's quite a lot of fans in the west

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 who were already before they saw this doing everything they can to make sure that the

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 Worldcon that China does not successfully bid for the Worldcon again in the next five years or

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 possibly indeed ever I think that's fair but I would also say specifically I'm not I'm not worried

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 by the prospect of China bidding for Worldcon as much I'm worried by the prospect of essentially

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 the PDU district people's government office bidding for it because obviously they have a large plan

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 yeah which uses which essentially uses Worldcon and the Hugo Awards as marks of how successful they

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 have been on establishing themselves as a big business center and that is not how I think of

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 Worldcon and the Hugo Awards indeed yeah I think I think the problem here is not that there is a

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 Chinese bid for Worldcon the problem here is that it is explicitly a Chinese local government authority

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 bid for Worldcon and like I would feel the same if I don't know less to share bid yes those

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 though remember we're translating from Chinese so you don't know whether it's actually saying

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 we are we we the PDU branch of local government are bidding or if it would be the same as

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 say Glasgow saying we successfully attracted the Worldcon's fiction convention to Glasgow

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 and the SEC and we would like to see them return within five years which I don't think people would

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 have a problem with I think I'm not saying this isn't worrying because I think it probably is

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 worrying but I'm saying the amount of nuance that could be lost in translation is very great yes

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 but obviously the difference in your hypothetical is that the Glasgow Worldcon is being run by

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 volunteers and we have it we have a number of reasons to think that the Chengdu Worldcon was

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 largely co-opted by business and local government interests 100% and also they would like to sweat

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 the Worldcon brands and fun fact chaps Chinese IP means that they could just get on to do that

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 and there's probably not very much that the bot protection committee or anybody else can do about

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 it though I'm sure Hugo Boss will have a go so that's news bit orks yeah I mean there's also a bit

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 I mean the bit that says continue to operate the online space of the Worldcon which is quite funny

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 because it didn't really operate as an online space during the Worldcon build a regular online

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 communication space between domestic fans and core members of the Worldcon and senior foreign

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 fans which I think is just making a bit explicit in their business plan what happened before the

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 Chengdu Worldcon anyway which is trying to bring over senior Worldcon con runners basically to get

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 them to see what they can do and I think get some of their support which I don't think is going to

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 work half as well in the future as it did before this Worldcon but it is in the plan so if anyone

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 tries to contact you for the through the wormhole plan it's because they think you are an influencer

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 oh I shall keep my eyes out yep no I'm sure we should be waiting for our invitations to

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 Chinese freebies I will link to the file 770 version because not all of our listeners will be able to

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 follow a link into the business meeting discord presumably oh I think they can all join if they

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 want but I wouldn't necessarily recommend that they do so but you know don't self exclude if you

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 think that being on the wisps business meeting discord will enhance your quality of life you

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 should definitely join if you think that the wisps business meeting discord will enhance your

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 quality of life then then there are people you can talk to about this it's going to say help is

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 available if you have been affected by any of the issues raised in this broadcast

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 have we already mentioned that the final ballot for the hugos is now available and you could vote

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 oh I don't know if we have actually because if not we should probably do that yeah

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 vote early vote often you can do that it'll just overwrite your previous vote

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 yeah yeah actually that sounded funny but that is actually the recommended technique for

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 hugo voting which is to vote straight away just for the things you already know about so then go

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 back in later and and amend your vote once you've become more familiar with more of the categories

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 yes we especially recommend as always everyone please votes in the fan categories obviously we

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 are eligible in fancast but please vote for the fan casters you think are the best and vote in all

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 the other fan categories so they continue to be awarded and we continue to recognize excellence

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 in fan they took out the thing where you don't want them if you get below a certain number of votes

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 so they'll still be awarded yes so but nevertheless I think the hugos are quite unusual in that they are

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 kind of the leading awards for a genre but also contain awards for fan activity and that reflects

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 the historical and ongoing relevance of the things that fans do to the genre as a whole and I think

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 that's incredibly important for the field and I think the fact that the hugo has fan categories is

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 really a good thing about the hugos and I would think that even if I wasn't a finalist and hadn't

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 previously won them but you know it is special pleading clearly but there you go we will be doing

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 episodes on the hugos we'll probably do one on the books and one on everything else because in the

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 summer it's hard to sit down and record and so having filler is useful no having excellent content

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 that isn't timely is useful I'm told we've never managed it have we mentioned the town halls yet

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 no I'm in 20. Glasgow's doing town halls they did one on site selection they're going to do one on

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 the business meeting and they're going to do one on the hugos but I think the one on the business

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 meeting is the one that is most likely to be um it's not most likely to be of interest but it's

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 most likely to explain something that people aren't already familiar with even if they are

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 listeners to this podcast whereas I think people probably do know quite a bit about the hugos and

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 how they work already which is good because they already had the hugo and the site selection one

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 so you missed them I will put it in the show notes a link to the town halls on the hugos and on

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 the site selection which are on the youtube channel thanks laze

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 we're going to talk a little bit about money more specifically we're going to talk about the

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 cost of the east corn and its ramifications for the people who can go um who wants to introduce this

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 should I mean I can but I don't mind if someone else wants to I want to talk about the past of

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 east corn's a little bit because the historical model for east corn was that you went to a big hotel

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 and said oh we'd like to fill your big hotel over a weekend when east over east weekend where it

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 will otherwise be empty because you're mostly a business hotel and in return would you mind giving

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 us all your conference space for free and I mean there's some kind of slight bits and bobs there

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 that's not always the exact thing they normally require that we didn't just sleep in the hotel we

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 also spend a lot of money on food and drink there which we do so it's okay and what seems to be

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 happening post-covid is that hotels are way less comfortable with that sort of deal than they used

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 to be now they may return to be uncomfortable with it but at the moment they are saying no you should

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 play for all your conference space and the conference space is very expensive because we use a fast

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 amount of it because unlike a business convention of the same size where you'd have one massive room

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 and then drop people into a few spaces for breakouts but maybe three or four and then bring them back

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 to the massive room and you probably have no more than one backstage room we actually have

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 enormous numbers of things that need to be put into rooms so we use enormous amounts of conference

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 space and it costs a lot of money and so I think inevitably that means the membership of east

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 con is going to have to rise and rise a lot um is that a good introduction and what does this mean

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 for the con yeah I think so I think I mean it's worth saying that this all might change

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 but I think it is notable that like things have changed or seem to have changed in the post-covid

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 years so yeah I think that's a fair summary Liz you've got some numbers yes so I did get some

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 numbers essentially just because I noted when the telefoot bid was announced that the membership

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 was quite expensive so I did go and look at some historical numbers as far as I can tell these

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 other ones these are the numbers for kind of buying a membership quite late on or on the door

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 and they're all post-covid times ones and so in 2022 a full membership was 70 pounds in 2023

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 it was 100 pounds and in 2024 it was 140 pounds and we don't know what 2025 will reach but they're

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 currently at 70 so I would assume it's going to be somewhere maybe 90 or 100 by the time we get to

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 the convention so basically costs are going up of a membership I mean cost is the cost of a

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 membership is not the only factor of pricing of east con's but I think it is a big one especially

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 for people who might be able to commute from the local area you've or people who are new to east

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 con's we've gone from it's 70 pounds which you might be willing to take a punt on for the weekend

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 to it's 140 so maybe you will only come for a day or not at all I know hotel rates have also gone

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 up I don't think my nine pound hotel room is ever coming back again but I think that is quite a

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 big gap and the second thing I noticed is that east con's usually have a concessionary rate I

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 think we seem to have settled on the right approach which is basically rather than having to prove

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 eligibility of some long list of categories that is eligible for concessions we just say if the cost

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 is a problem you are eligible for a concessionary membership but I do note that the concession

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 membership has been going up 10 pounds a year and since the full membership is moving up way more

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 than that we're at the point where in 2024 a concessionary membership was 60 pounds and a full

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 membership was 140 which is a much bigger difference than k 40 70 pounds in 2022 if we do think cost

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 is an issue for the east con the second problem is going to be that if we have a lot of members who

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 cannot afford the full rate and can only come if they get the concessionary membership then it

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 kind of will force the full rates up even further because a smaller number of the convention are

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 actually paying those rates and we're also tended to have local memberships Glasgow has local

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 membership three connectors local memberships that's the Belfast east con Dublin I think had local

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 island memberships and so that's great for getting new people in but it also means that when you're

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 doing your cost estimations you may need to push the full membership prices up again just because

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 you know that only a smaller amount of your members will actually be paying that if we're paying for

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 function space then we know we have an amount we have to pay and we probably can't set the rates

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 too low so we don't risk falling below that especially if you think you might only be a 500 person

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 east con not an 800 person east con so I think that is going to just it's going to be interesting

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 to see where it goes in the next few years and if that that has to push further up so I also wanted

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 to say a little bit about early bird rates it's traditional that you get a very good deal on the

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 east con two years later if you buy it immediately after the bid is one or within a couple of days

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 that's often half the cost of buying it on the door or even less in some cases compared to other

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 things I go to like festivals that distance difference for a festival might be 20 pounds on a 100 pound

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 ticket but it's not going to be anything like the discount we give and one of the results is it that

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 the people who are financially able to pay for their membership early and know that they will

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 definitely go get a vastly better deal than the people who can only decide at the last minute and

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 I think that's something we should be talking about a bit more openly because it's possible that a

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 smaller discount would be sufficient to get those people joining I think I'm going to say a couple

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 of things I'm speaking for a position of wealth privilege like I am I'm not rich but I'm not poor

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 I'm thoroughly middled and so like I will say that for me my decision to join east con as soon

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 as memberships go up I mean I know I get a cheaper deal but it's also about you know I can I know

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 the money is coming out of my account I can spend the money immediately knowing the money has already

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 gone makes it easier for me to see how much money I actually have and so I'm not doing it primarily

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 because it's cheaper I'm doing it because it makes my budgeting easier as well I will say that if

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 conventions did make that initial rates less of a good deal than it currently is it would not affect

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 my decision personally but obviously I cannot speak for all fans who do that if you have an

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 opinion please get in touch because I'd be interested to know I've been interested to know people's

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 reasons for joining early I mean there's another reason why the starting rates are low right because

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 if you start off low then you can have more rate rises and rate rises are a good way to

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 advertise we've got a rate rises we can remember to join you know the east con if you start higher

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 you also don't have as many of those but maybe we don't need quite as many of those I mean I think

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 they're often time to you know be like Nova common the previous east to common so on or just raise it

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 by five pounds or something instead a five pounds rate rise probably isn't enough to motivate people

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 to actually bother so I do see that there's a psychology there of putting the rate rate up

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 enough that people who have just been a bit lazy are actually motivated to do it and that and that's

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 that's part of the thing right because I understand why conventions do this model but Alison is also

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 quite right that this model does not act in a way that increases the equity of the community it's

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 hard but this is why it's important to talk about it because it's not if it was trivial easy to

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 sort out we would need to talk about it I just want to say the thing is a lot of this is

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 kind of I think wealth is sometimes in in the eye of the beholder like because John says he's not

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 rich he's not poor solidly middle but I suspect from the perspective of someone who's rich that

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 they would think John is definitely not solidly middle and the perspective of people say with

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 zero income would probably say that John is quite rich yeah I don't I don't know how we get around

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 that but basically you're deciding if you need a concession membership and I think most people will

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 be not taking concession memberships unless it genuinely is an issue but there might be people

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 who kind of go oh actually I can buy 60-pound memberships for me and my family but not 140

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 pound memberships for me and my family yeah I mean I did I did buy concessionary memberships for my

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 unwaged children despite the fact that I was paid for their memberships but I was like they are

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 children and they are unwaged and they have no income and they clearly cannot possibly be paid

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 with all about so you know when I say children I mean young adults okay so yeah well I think we

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 should be clear that your children are not dependent children on day to 18 they are your adult children

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 -fecless ex-students and I should say that one of my earning less money than so the part of this

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 was people who were retired automatically assuming that because they were pensioners they were therefore

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 entitled to concessions which if anyone has been paying attention to income distributions in the

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 United Kingdom is not always the case and it's all obviously very complicated because if you just

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 because part of the thing is that if you don't introduce a strict set of rules by which you know

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 if you meet these criteria you can apply for the concessionary rate you end up in situations

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 where you're cutting people out who should be able to apply but if you don't have the strict

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 set of rules people will self-sensor and they will not think it applies to them and so there is a

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 thing here about I think I'm not saying we need strict sets of rules but I do think examples

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 of if you are if you read this example and you think oh that sounds a lot like me you should get

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 the concessionary rate and we are not saying that this example means that if you don't recognize

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 yourself in this example you're not eligible and there should be multiple examples obviously

390
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,680
 I am not retired obviously so I have no insight into that but that's like when it used to be that

391
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:10,880
 it was an unwaged membership I remember when I was first in fandom that was the deal and obviously

392
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:16,080
 that is one where that explicitly includes people who are retired so I wonder I don't know how much

393
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:21,920
 of that is a hangover of the way we used to do it it's just hard to decide but certainly when I was

394
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:27,360
 a student I used to buy unwaged memberships because I was broadly unwaged yeah I also

395
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:32,640
 worry there are people who select out because they think oh well you know I've you know maybe I lost

396
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:37,360
 my job but I'm sure I'll get one soon and we're just having kind of temporary issues like that's

397
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:43,600
 also why it's there I will also say that I don't think I can only look at Belfast East Gun I don't

398
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,360
 want to single them out but they're the ones who currently have a registration page we don't have

399
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:52,400
 like a family membership or anything like that that might also help because the cost of bringing

400
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,960
 four people don't need to come much out of the cost of bringing too we actually have a lot we used

401
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:01,840
 we had a spell where we had quite a few kids at the East Gun and we've got far fewer now and some of

402
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:07,360
 that is demographics but I wonder if we're losing our family our young families again because I think

403
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:14,480
 it is it is incredibly expensive I wanted to talk a little bit about how the need to make sure we

404
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:20,320
 don't price people out of the community affects the way in which we look at venues and the knock on

405
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:26,400
 impact that has on access because one of the things that we covered last episode was that the

406
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:31,120
 Telford International Center was built in the 1980s and if you had built it today you would not

407
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,440
 have made some of the same decisions that they made but obviously the other side of that coin is

408
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:41,200
 that Telford was one of the cheapest if not the cheapest venue that levitation looked at and so

409
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:46,320
 presumably there is also a thing here where going to Telford cost more money than any East Con has

410
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:52,880
 previously and that was an old cheap venue and so going to a modern more expensive venue would

411
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:57,360
 consequently cost even more money and that's a really hard tension right because I don't want

412
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:02,320
 to exclude either group from the East Con and trying to resolve that tension is really difficult

413
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:06,960
 as someone who does not have any physical disability and considers themselves to be

414
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,200
 in a position of relative wealth. I want to have the conversation while simultaneously

415
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:16,960
 recognizing I am not necessarily the person who is impacted by it. Discuss? I think I'd like to

416
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:23,200
 pick up on the suggestion that Telford is an old venue given that it dates from a time after I started

417
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:29,120
 to go into East Con so it feels like a pretty modern venue to me but also we have several sites in

418
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:35,520
 the UK which are pretty well suited to East Con but which we are not using that much because they

419
00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:40,080
 are old and very very shabby and there are some other reasons why we're not using them.

420
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:45,920
 These some of these are gradually being modernized and at the point where they modernize that's the

421
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,720
 point where they go we are there is no way we are going to let people have our function space for

422
00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:56,800
 nothing because we have to get back the cost of modernization that cost very many millions of pounds

423
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:02,880
 and so we are seeing that this in the discussions that people are having there that we know that we

424
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:09,120
 have good modern function space will you pay for it and the places that don't are just kind of

425
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:14,160
 gradually deteriorating until well-known outfalls are completely be turned into modern hotels that

426
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:20,400
 we cannot afford. They tend to be listed buildings that makes it even harder to make them accessible.

427
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,320
 I don't have a great answer here but I think we may find ourselves paying quite a bit more for

428
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:30,560
 East Con and yeah well the privilege. There is a sense in which because East Con's got a lot cheaper

429
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:36,000
 that's the other thing that the the cost of attending the East Con has not the membership cost has

430
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:43,280
 got more expensive over time even with inflation but the hotel room cost has a pre-pandemic hotel

431
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:49,040
 rooms in the UK were much cheaper on average than they had been for the for a quality of hotel

432
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,280
 room than they had been. Certainly when I started going to conventions for many years before that

433
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:59,840
 and so what we're seeing post-COVID is a kind of the hotels are trying to re-establish the order

434
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:03,680
 where they where they make a lot more money selling rooms. I don't know how successful they will be

435
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:07,920
 in that. I think they will be successful for a while and then they will all still have to try

436
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:12,800
 and fill all their rooms by whatever mechanism they can. Yeah I think I mean you may be right if

437
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:18,320
 you look to historical you know thing hotel rooms have not risen in line with inflation they dipped

438
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,960
 and are now kind of bopping up again but it is definitely a lot more expensive than probably any

439
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:27,680
 time since I started going to East Con's. That period of expensive hotel rooms is probably 20 years ago

440
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,440
 so there are a lot of people who are not thinking oh this is rebalancing to a historical level

441
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,120
 they're thinking wow it's really expensive. I mean I've just looked at my Glasgow hotel

442
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:41,040
 and it's going to be really expensive. And that is another one where the hotels that were better

443
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:46,320
 that were not as pricey those rooms sell out the first. Those rooms sell out before the other ones

444
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:52,800
 right? So like if you are someone who can't commit to the convention in the near term then then you

445
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:57,840
 end up in this situation where you know you either end up somewhere rubbish or somewhere expensive or

446
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:03,760
 both. And that yeah I don't obviously there's not a good way of fixing that necessarily other than

447
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:09,120
 I mean I guess the convention in some cases can keep some rooms back and I don't know whether

448
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,640
 I know conventions do do this for access needs but I don't know if they do it for

449
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:18,560
 sort of concessionary memberships but maybe that's something we need to start thinking about is you

450
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:24,000
 know if you've got a hotel that is cheap and nice maybe you keep some of those rooms back

451
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:28,240
 for people who are less financially able to go back to Allison's point. I'm not saying that

452
00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:34,720
 Telford at 1987 is like you know ancient but I am responding to a comment made by Allison on

453
00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:41,280
 last episode where about specifically like it's not modern enough to be perfect in terms of accessibility.

454
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:46,080
 That is true but it's way better on accessibility than the majestic in Harrogate.

455
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:51,520
 Yes! And I'm sure I keep saying this we are using enormous amounts of space and

456
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:57,920
 and we may one way to make East Kong more affordable would be to have less program

457
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:04,480
 way less back office functions with their own room. Fewer access rooms actually I'm afraid

458
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:09,760
 East Kong this year had a quiet room and a silent room and I think that was you know presumably

459
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:14,880
 that we had the space for it but now people will be going but can we have a quiet room and a silent

460
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:20,240
 room and I'm like well yes but that's going to be an extra five pounds on everyone's membership

461
00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:25,200
 for that one thing and there are 20 things like that. I do agree there's a lot of things where we

462
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:29,040
 think oh we need to put this in a small small room and we probably need to kind of think about

463
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:33,440
 whether we could put them all in a big room. I mean there's some stuff for yes which you need like

464
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:39,680
 a small private room people can go to but some stuff could just be like okay let's stick all of

465
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:45,200
 these functions into one big room and see how it works and you know if it turns out to be a total

466
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:50,960
 failure one year then we have learned something but I think we are going to going oh you need a

467
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:56,880
 room for x room for y room for z and some cases like okay but if that means ruling out 10 venues

468
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:01,520
 let's see how it works without them. Well and like and not not wanting to be funny but like

469
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:08,000
 there are some functions that probably don't need their own room. You'd have to experiment and

470
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,080
 one of the problems is that people don't like it when you experiment and so there's a human

471
00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:16,000
 cost here where if you tell people who are used to working in a certain way that they have to work

472
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:22,160
 in a way that might end up being worse to see how we can save money those people will react poorly

473
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,440
 and I'm not saying that's wrong it's entirely understandable but I don't know how you implement

474
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,600
 some of these things without annoying and upsetting people which is something you don't

475
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:34,640
 necessarily want to do to people who are doing unpaid volunteering that is also hard in its own way

476
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,400
 but like so for instance the example I'm thinking of a lot of the work we do on news that could be

477
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:42,480
 done sort of on a laptop anywhere in the convention space as long as you've got somewhere to put

478
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:48,160
 your printer but then we'd have to share a printer probably with ops and ops might not enjoy us

479
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:53,680
 monopolizing their printers for a couple of hours twice a day and so like is that fair on the people

480
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:58,400
 who are used to volunteering in ops I don't know is there a hard question. Yeah you do want to

481
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:06,480
 minimize the number of people who are in the same space as a printer that is exceeding its duty

482
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:13,680
 cycle. I mean maybe maybe that means we don't do printed newsletters. I've just I had this conversation

483
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:20,400
 at some length with Shana Werthen in the context of the EastCon you need to I don't want to get into

484
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:24,160
 a whole kind of maybe we shouldn't have that function but that's true for quite a lot of things that we

485
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:28,560
 do. I would never use news as there is an example for this because the fact is if you want a good

486
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,600
 newsletter you need to give it a quiet space and if you don't give it a quiet space you won't get

487
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:36,720
 a good newsletter but you might not want that so you know. I mean I I think I disagree as someone

488
00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:41,680
 who's edited newsletters I think I can happily hyper focus in a corner of the bar and it's fine

489
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:47,440
 but what I will say is I think if I was going to make a list of the backroom offices we have

490
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:52,560
 I think newsletter is the one that most easily comes out and the reason I'm picking it as the

491
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:57,040
 example is because I know Alison will have to re-contextually some of the things she's just said in that

492
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:03,680
 light because I think you can't you can't put ops in the bar you can't put green room in the bar

493
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:08,800
 I mean you could get rid of the games room. Well I think we should scrap green room but I know it's

494
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:15,600
 just me. Well no no no no it's the best the single the single best thing about English conventions

495
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:21,040
 and Alison's like get rid of it absolutely not. No I mean that's that's absolute that's absolute

496
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:27,840
 lunacy. We are using a lot of space compared to other sorts of conferences of the same size

497
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:32,880
 if I was running an Eastercon again which I'm definitely not going to do I would be running into

498
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:37,680
 on I you're going to have way less program streams guys which is kind of what I did last time.

499
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:43,920
 I think part of the problem is that we don't have a good idea of what parts of

500
00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:51,280
 Eastercon people like the best but the problem is that when I think about how I would start cutting

501
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:57,360
 I can see a number of places in which I know who I would be upsetting by doing that.

502
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:02,160
 And it's me. Yeah well that's kind of the point of making I think I think that's that's one of the

503
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:06,880
 things is that you and I have very different visions of what makes Eastercon good. I think

504
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:11,760
 that's very useful in this discussion because it makes it very illustrative to be like well I would

505
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,920
 cut this this is this and you're outraged and you're like I'd cut this this is this I'm outraged.

506
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:20,400
 Don't think I would but I don't think I am outraged. I mean outrage might be a strong word but

507
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:26,400
 I think that if you were going to start cutting I'd rather get rid of newsletter than ops or green

508
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:31,040
 room and so it's like well I don't want to get rid of newsletter but if I was told I had to get rid

509
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:37,200
 of the small rooms for confunctions that's where I'd start and then that makes me think getting rid

510
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:42,240
 of the small rooms for confunctions isn't the answer. And so that might my actual I think that's why

511
00:47:42,240 --> 00:47:47,360
 I bring it up because I don't think the problem is that Eastercon has too many small rooms for

512
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:53,200
 confunctions I think Eastercon works well as a result of that and that's hard because it limits us.

513
00:47:53,200 --> 00:48:00,160
 But and I guess I guess in in total the thing I come to is that where we are as a community in

514
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:04,640
 terms of the venues you we're using and the prices we're charging is probably I mean it might be a

515
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:10,560
 local maximum but it is probably a good compromise between all of these tensions that we have sort

516
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:16,000
 of marshalled into this space where we are happy with the sorts of things we're doing and I'm not

517
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:23,600
 sure whether disrupting things too much to try and find a new maximum is worthwhile if it takes us

518
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:29,680
 too far away from the local maximum for too long. I guess that's my main point is that right now I

519
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:34,720
 think we might be navigating these tensions the best we can without making Eastercon something very

520
00:48:34,720 --> 00:48:38,560
 different to what it actually is. I don't know whether you two agree with that but I certainly

521
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:43,680
 I think my perception at the moment I've cut out a long silence here listeners where Alison and Liz

522
00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:48,800
 thought about it. Yeah no I think I think that's interesting but I was more thinking not that we

523
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,720
 fundamentally changed the Eastercon but if there is a venue and we're like oh we're a bit squeezed

524
00:48:52,720 --> 00:48:58,800
 for small rooms let's try it out and see if we can cope. Yeah we are already doing that to some

525
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:04,160
 extent so this Eastercon had the ops hub model model where techies run out of ops. Well actually

526
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:10,800
 my top target for small rooms we didn't need to have was the gopher hole and in fact the last couple

527
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:16,160
 of years that has been absorbed both that and tech having its own space have been absorbed back

528
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:21,440
 into ops to a single hub so we are doing some work in the right direction there. A newsletter

529
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:27,360
 runs out of a very small room and can normally run out of the one of the hotels own admin spaces

530
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:32,400
 or the business hub if the hotel will let us and we have had that work a couple of times.

531
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:36,640
 No and actually I'm glad you mentioned that because gopher hole is an obvious one where I

532
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:48,880
 hadn't even really noticed it not been its own space. Shall we move on to picks? Who wants to pick

533
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:54,160
 first? This is first on the list. Only because I wrote it down first not because I necessarily

534
00:49:54,160 --> 00:50:00,800
 have to go first. So my pick is a book sorry John you're going to read on my picks right?

535
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:08,480
 One day. Yeah so my pick is a book which is Starling House by Alexei Harrow. I thought there was a good

536
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:13,360
 chance this might end up on the Hugo Ballot I suspect it will have been bubbling under when we

537
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:21,360
 get the long list and basically it is a story about a small town and a mysterious sinister haunted

538
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:30,560
 house and a woman named Opal who's been raising her half brother since their mother died which

539
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:35,840
 may be all connected with the sinister events in the town and the sinister house and the sinister

540
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:44,320
 heir to the house who lives there. Basically it's a solid haunted house novel where it's all connected

541
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:49,120
 with like the how the house has been influenced by and is influencing what happens in the town

542
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:56,480
 which is kind of small town America no one has any prospects it's just a mining company which is

543
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:01,920
 kind of slowly destroying the environment. I don't think it's amazingly good you must all run out

544
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:07,680
 and read it but I think it is very solidly done and you get a lot about Opal who is the young woman

545
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:13,280
 at the center and yeah in a kind of she could feel like you know she's led this existence where

546
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:18,800
 essentially she they live in a motel she has a dead-end job she's raising her brother but it never feels

547
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:25,040
 like super depressing it always feels like yes she's doing this hard thing but she's coming to

548
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:29,360
 realize she does maybe have some support in this and I like their relationship with her brother who

549
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:34,640
 is well smart and ahead of her and doing that kind of thing where yes I know what you've been doing

550
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:39,840
 and I've been ahead of you all along obviously the house has its own secrets it's got this quite

551
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:45,120
 kind of a conceit at least at the start where you get these little footnotes in the tail which are

552
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:49,600
 obviously like historical footnotes so someone is reading it and putting in a footnote of like

553
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,840
 here is the historical thing behind this thing Opal is saying in her narrative which I really

554
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:56,960
 liked and at the start I was really into that because I'm like oh we're going to find out like

555
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:00,880
 who's actually writing the book and then it ends up being a bit disappointing but that's really good

556
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,960
 at the start to have this perspective of someone who is putting little comments on what the author

557
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:12,080
 is author is writing almost like um unreliable narration-y yeah yeah nice I like that it's good

558
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:17,040
 I like things with unreliable narratives yeah and I mean I liked I liked the 10,000

559
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:22,320
 dollars of January as well I think Alex Harrow is just like a good solid writer I may not have read

560
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:27,920
 the book which make me think this is like the most amazing thing but I think they are all kind of

561
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:33,520
 really worth a read yeah no I really like Alex Harrow's stuff as well and I'm looking

562
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:38,240
 forward to reading this one just as soon as I don't have a long list of required reading for

563
00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:46,800
 the podcast that I do yeah my pick um so this is um Hopeland by Ian McDonald which we mentioned

564
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:51,200
 several times but which none of us have previously picked I thought this novel might be

565
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:55,520
 might have been appeared on the Hugo Shatlist like expect to see it bubbling under whether

566
00:52:55,520 --> 00:53:04,320
 long list appears it has had near universal acclaim so Hopeland is kind of a 20 year chunk

567
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:10,160
 out of the middle of a family saga you learn a bit about the past of the family and you learn

568
00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:15,760
 a very small about about the future well there are two families but there there is a family which is

569
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:23,920
 not really a family in a traditional sense it is a loose non-geographic gathering of people who

570
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:29,760
 kind of help each other out and put each other up and sort things out for things I'm not entirely

571
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:35,600
 sure I believe in the Hopeland family and how it works it kind of reminded me a bit about

572
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:40,640
 science fiction fandom but you absolutely never meet any of the people who totally wind you up in

573
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:46,400
 that and you don't meet you know you don't meet any of the people who would be very annoying elderly

574
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:54,320
 uncles in this you only kind of meet benevolent elders in Hopeland but I still loved it I loved

575
00:53:54,320 --> 00:54:01,120
 the idea of it you meet some of the characters you come from this family some of the other characters

576
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:05,600
 come from another family that is absorbed into the Hopeland family over the course of the book

577
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:15,600
 it's a near future climate change novel I think it is reasonable that a lot of science fiction

578
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:23,200
 books are dealing with the kind of likely disaster of that time and and I think it is good this

579
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:31,360
 doesn't entirely deal with it it just kind of is the backdrop to the action in at the heart of the

580
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:37,760
 novel you in spent 23 years writing it and that is reflected in the novel because there are some

581
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:43,200
 bits that were clearly written in the past and so reflects some things that are about the past I

582
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:47,120
 and as somebody quite recently tried to write something set in the past and discovered it's very

583
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:52,800
 very hard because your language changes quite a lot even within your own lifetime I thought that

584
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:56,880
 was quite interesting so that's one of the things that happens in the novel is that the language

585
00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:04,480
 that is used changes as Ian was writing it I love this like I mean I don't think it's perfect because

586
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:10,400
 I think it is too ambitious I think there are things like it doesn't really deal with climate change

587
00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:17,200
 it just kind of the epilogue to the novel kind of assumes that it's somewhat cured without ever

588
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:22,560
 quite saying so in quite a strange way some of the things that happen in the middle are not entirely

589
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:29,440
 realistic some of the you meet characters and I think one of the things that is very good at

590
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:33,760
 is that there are a lot there are a lot of characters in this book and a lot of them are sketched very

591
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:39,040
 briefly and they're nevertheless kind of jump off the page as individuals in a way that I think

592
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:45,680
 lots of authors do not manage to do I am looking at you John Scalsey and I loved all of that and I

593
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:51,840
 really really enjoyed reading every page of this novel and I feel I'm being slightly more defensive

594
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:56,960
 of that than I might normally be because I know that one of my co-hosts really didn't like it so you

595
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:02,400
 know it's been you did not finish this novel because she got too frustrated with the main characters

596
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:09,600
 and I I finished it but I thought it was a triumph of ideas over characterization in in the in the

597
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:15,360
 style of old-fashioned science fiction and one of the things I felt the reason it's been you did

598
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:19,760
 not finish this you got very frustrated that one of the two main characters goes to Iceland

599
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:23,040
 and basically tells the Icelandic people exactly how they should do all the things to be really

600
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:27,280
 great and they're like oh yeah we hadn't thought of that and it's like come on come on like what

601
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:32,080
 we what we doing here and the other one is that the other main character is just someone to to whom

602
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:37,680
 things happen and he never really does anything he's just sort of there while things happen around

603
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:43,360
 him and I found both of those characters very difficult and the book wants you to be invested in

604
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:49,920
 the relationship between them but I just was not oh I was very I was very interested in both of them

605
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:55,600
 so you know and and also I think I don't really think of it as being two main characters because I

606
00:56:55,600 --> 00:57:00,480
 think there are a lot of other characters who get almost as much screen time as either of these do

607
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:07,200
 certainly yeah and I I liked all of them as well you know I thought they were all quite interesting

608
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:12,960
 as well yes there are some there are some supporting characters that are interesting I think my

609
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:19,680
 my goodreads review I think does a better job of saying this than than I have here in this book

610
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:24,080
 but they're marred by ideas which are best ambiguous and worth worst poorly thought out there are

611
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:27,280
 interesting depictions of cultures which don't often take the spotlight but they're marred by

612
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:30,880
 saviour narratives in which protagonists from Britain go until natives help us to tackle their

613
00:57:30,880 --> 00:57:34,880
 problems and there are fascinating characters which are marred by the two perspective characters

614
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:39,920
 who are deeply uninteresting. Ian McDonald's a man from Northern Ireland and he writes a novel

615
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:43,680
 that is in part about a man from Northern Ireland and I'm not I'm not actually going to

616
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:49,440
 criticize people from writing about characters of their own culture rather than as their

617
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:55,600
 protagonists rather than inventing other ones. I think what we've done here is is reflected the

618
00:57:55,600 --> 00:58:02,560
 range of views on the novel which it's not and I wonder if thought that it would be a massively

619
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:07,680
 divisive novel and obviously some people like some things and other people like different things

620
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:12,640
 that is good because you know it would be very sad place if we all like the same things but I

621
00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:16,560
 did think this was really good one of the absolutely best-knocked things I've read in the last year

622
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:21,280
 I have sad look I was I am even sadder that it was not on the Hugo ballot now that I've actually read

623
00:58:21,280 --> 00:58:31,040
 it so I went to CEX and I took with me a rock band guitar and I swapped the rock band guitar

624
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:37,360
 for a copy of Dredge on PlayStation 5 and that is my pick this week. Dredge is everything I like

625
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:47,760
 an interactive fiction in that it uses its time to tell a story by introducing you to various

626
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:53,760
 characters all of whom clearly have knowledge that they are not sharing with you and I don't think

627
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:57,440
 like the the game does not make the point that this is deliberate but like there is clearly

628
00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:03,360
 something happening you are washed up on the rocks of an island and they are like brilliant we

629
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:09,760
 need a new fisherman please have this boat and go fish and you do this and you go around fishing

630
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:14,240
 and it's a lovely game where you go on the ocean and you sort of you sort of dupe around and you

631
00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:18,720
 fish and then you take fish back to the shore you get money for the fish you upgrade your boat

632
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:23,760
 and etc so far so so good and I must admit like I played this in his spaniel was watching me play

633
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:29,280
 and she was like so um so this is this is science fiction is it I was like no I mean okay for

634
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:36,080
 it but there's also whenever you're fishing at night there's a weird eye that follows you around

635
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:42,080
 and then sometimes you fish up fish that have weird mutations and you take them to the fish

636
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:48,080
 manga who appears to be experimenting with them oh and there's a weird red beam of light in the

637
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:51,760
 sky and when it goes away people are like oh the red beam of light in the sky has gone away and

638
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,040
 you're like right and they're like oh good it's back again and you're like I don't understand

639
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:58,960
 what's happening and I haven't got to the point where I know what's happening yet so I can't

640
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:06,640
 spoil it but there's clearly something going on and it kind of reminds me of welcome to night

641
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:13,360
 veil in terms of vibe it's got that kind of insidious sneaking suspicion that things are not

642
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:22,400
 as they seem in quite a pointed way I think quite a rye way which I'm enjoying and it's just I just

643
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:30,400
 really like it and I'm a sucker for this kind of slow burn everything is not right story so so yes

644
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:36,720
 I have been thoroughly enjoying it to the point where I did I sit down to play it for half an hour

645
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:42,000
 and I looked up at the clock and I was like oh no it is bedtime I must now go to bed because I

646
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:48,240
 have been I have been very much enjoying it so yes that is my pick um drench I get to go because

647
01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:53,600
 Alice is still finishing her cardamom bum I did enjoy drench I did finish it I think I came to the

648
01:00:53,600 --> 01:01:02,720
 end of it thinking I had done maybe a little too much kind of grinding for the payoff so I enjoyed

649
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:08,480
 it but I did feel some of the fishing I kind of did as more of a background thing while I was doing

650
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:14,160
 other things that did not sustain me quite through the whole plot that's fair seeing as John introduced

651
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:20,480
 to Spaniards perspective on on Hopeland I will introduce my Charles perspective on drench as well

652
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:27,200
 as mine I've played about I think 75% of it um based on where I am through the plot you know

653
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:31,760
 it is obviously a slight spoiler for this game to say that this is on the Hugo shortlist so therefore

654
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:35,840
 despite the fact this is not immediately obvious at the beginning it has some science fiction

655
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:41,200
 fantasy or in this case horror elements um oh that's clear from like five minutes in though I mean

656
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:45,440
 it's not really a spoiler yeah that's right it's very early on in the game you cut that kind of like

657
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:49,360
 you may not want to go fishing at night but you very quickly realize that if you want to make any

658
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:53,840
 money you're going to have to go fishing at night you will quickly discover that um all is not as

659
01:01:53,840 --> 01:02:02,000
 it seems I really enjoyed actually the the story of it but I personally when I have the because I

660
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:06,640
 like games where there is a tight little gameplay loop and a bit of story but I find the actual

661
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:13,040
 gameplay loop a bit tedious frankly the fishing is very basic and I would have liked to have seen

662
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:19,280
 a bit of a better game in the gamey bits because I quite like the game bits of video games as well

663
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:24,800
 as the story bits of video games and then I kind of started about 75% of it all at once and then I

664
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:29,440
 just kind of stopped so I probably will do the rest of it at some point but um I did not finish the

665
01:02:29,440 --> 01:02:34,480
 game um and it wasn't because I was horrified I was just like oh no I'm not done enough of this now

666
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:42,880
 my child however who is a completist of games of this kind not only not only played it obsessively

667
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:52,240
 but also started a new game when they'd realized they hadn't got a maximally good fish on some one

668
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:59,120
 of the unique fish so they could save scum until they got the maximally new fish in their course of

669
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:07,440
 acquiring 100% of all of the fish and I'm like well oh that's a different way to play and they were

670
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:13,040
 like it's a collecting game mum it's a it's a it's a game about collection and completionism and I'm

671
01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:18,160
 like that that may be another reason I don't like it but that slightly surprised me so if you are the

672
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:23,120
 sort of person who likes grinding pointlessly in games for very for very many as a deed then I

673
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:28,960
 think dredge is a game for you I think dredge does I don't see myself seriously collecting all the

674
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:33,760
 fish for the same reason I have never collected all of the pokemon which is pokemon is an amazing

675
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:40,560
 game the the part of pokemon I find interesting is not in fact the collecting all the pokemon aspect

676
01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:45,120
 it is it is all of the game around that and I think the same is probably true of dredge

677
01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:50,800
 a very worthy game to have on the final on the ballot I was very glad to see that

678
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:54,240
 well we'll talk about this when we do the Hugo episode but I was very glad to see that we once

679
01:03:54,240 --> 01:04:01,520
 again have a mixture of indian and AA titles this is good and that was the orked thought

680
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:10,160
 podcast and it's goodbye from me it's goodbye from me and it's goodbye from me

681
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:12,160
 you

682
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:33,360
 you want to hear my latest proposal for a special episode by the way go for it we're

683
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:38,720
 going to have to do I think a business meeting special once all the proposals are out to explain

684
01:04:38,720 --> 01:04:44,240
 what's going on and whether people should should turn up to vote for against them oh I mean you're

685
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:52,640
 probably right but I don't want to the theme music for this episode was fanfare for space by

686
01:04:52,640 --> 01:05:00,000
 kevin mccloud and competec.com used under a creative commons attribution 4.0 license this podcast will

687
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,080
 end at the beat beep

688
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:12,080
 [BLANK_AUDIO]