Descent Rate Warning Light and poor man's attitude guage

[Baobobafet]

Pretty straight forward, I thought I should put it out there.

Descent rate & Attitude

The descent rate Warning Light and attitude guage. (would only activate when gravity is in detect range)

Once a planet's gravity vector is recognized by this guage, the descent rate can automaticaly be calculated for the ship's z axis, once the ship transitions to horizontal for descent to the surface. Depending on orientation and rate of descent, three things would happen.

1. It would only turn the light on when the ship was perpendicular to a detected gravity source.
   (This is also how it can function as a horizon and landing attitude aid)
   In other words, Only when a ship's pitch and roll are horizontal to the surface of a gravity source (planet) a green light on the dash would go on.

2.As a ship decended, rate of speed down the gravity vector could be calculated, and if safe landing speeds were exceeded, a flag would go off and cause the warning light to change to yellow.

3.Speed down the gravity vector would continue to be calculated, and if it approached lethal landing speeds, a flag would go off and cause the warning light to change to red.

All that would be required would be a small alert light on the dash that goes on when a pilots descent rate velocity down the gravity axis (z axis for ship) exceeded safe landing speed limits.

Of course this warning light wouldn't protect a landing pilot from lateral drift mishaps, landing in the wrong spot or careening head-on into any surface.

Basics involve a 3 color system for the warning light.

green - for safe landing speed
yellow - for collision or crash speed
red - for all fatal impact speeds

The warning light need not be distractingly large - just large enough to notice
l
See Pics

Not quite yet level for landing.

Ship level on horizon and green for landing.

Descending level and at safe speed.

Descending level at crash speed.

Descending level at lethal speed.

[Brianetta]

Instead of all this complicated talk of gravity wells, being perpendicular, etc, why not use the existing altimeter as a basis for this tool?

When near a planet, we have our altitude in perpendicular metres from the surface. We also have a clock, which means it would be trivial for the ship to work out its vertical rate of descent. Then all we need is a roll/pitch gauge so that we can be certain we're level when it's too dark to see the horizon (or when there is stuff in the way).

[Baobobafet]

Yeah

I kinda knew the plugins had to be there, just didn't know the reference terminology.
But yeah, I imagine the alt gauge is where you could base all the math on.

Btw, I did some velocity crash tests.
Recommended landing speeds (green range) probably no higher than 20m/s or you'll start seeing damage(unless you have a shield)

Over that, you're in the yellow range up to about 80-90m/s

Faster than that and you're in the red terminal range.

Just so you know, I don't park my car at 49m/s
You will walk away from the impact though according to Pioneer... :)

[Baobobafet]

To add a little sense to those numbers
I did some conversions;

1 m/s = 3.6 km/h

5 m/s = 18 km/h

10 m/s = 36 km/h

20 m/s = 72 km/h

80 m/s = 288 km/h

90 m/s = 324 km/h

Using the above numbers as a giude should allow for more sane green, yellow, red velocity alarm flag settings.

[Baobobafet]

I do think some type of holographic bouy projected out front of the docking

bay would help people in finding the axis of spacestations for manual docking.
Until then, once you find the axis, this instrument might be useful in setting a

straight course down that axis, as well as a docking speed guide.

Sighting up down the target axis

Coming in straight fast and hot :O

[Baobobafet]

Maybe in a version 2.0

Dealing with the lateral positioning issue a pilot could have indicaters to cue him on which direction to add thrust to line up on the axis perfectly.
In the same way on planets it could signal that your ship was directly over a landing pad.

Not quite lined up ...

Ah there it is, 8 ball down the pocket :)

[Baobobafet]

Version 3.0 upgrade via the shipyard.

Here's a HUD addon that can be slaved to the altitude vector in the same way as the above instrument.
As well as being useful and intuitive for planetary nav.
(It should also recognize the proper vector axis for spacestation docking to make it useful for such maneuvers)

My main objective was no clutter, and to keep it basic, clean and simple.

Ideal features:
ON/OFF and a HUD color change option.

IMO, it should have a sub mode such as one that allows a pilot to zero all the readings to measure pitch yaw roll relative to whatever his ship's existing pitch yaw roll orientation happens to be.

Wings and nose level.

Degrees pitching up.

Degrees yawing right.

Degrees of Roll or bank to the right.

[Baobobafet]

er I mean to the right.. lol

[Brianetta]

My editing powers make you look silly. Sorry about that. (-:

[johnbartholomew]

The normal thing on aircraft HUDs is a pitch ladder, which provides an indication of both pitch and roll. I'm working on implementing this to start with.

Your mock-ups look good though -- when I've got a pull request ready it would be good to get your input and then we can iterate on the design.

[Baobobafet]

Thanks,

Yeah, I've been an aircraft buff for many years.
I consciously left out the pitch ladder (or rather moved it off to the side)
to have a more clear view(read uncluttered)

I'll not dispute the value of a pitch ladder - but perhaps there could be an option to turn the pitch ladder graphic on and off?
Sort of a de-clutter mode.

Anyways, any help I can give, Photoshop or otherwise, happy to assist :)

[Baobobafet]

I know in aviation, normally this lower guage is used for making co-ordinated turns.
I thought it would be a novel use of this HUD gauge to be able to transform it's use
so it could lend itself for use as a calibrated roll gauge and wings level (horizon)
reference. Perhaps in the final HUD design this might be retained as such for the
HUD's clutter free mode option.

I did neglect to move the needle for the roll gauge to the top, which seems more practical.
So here's a small cosmetic update to the HUD's roll gauge (incremented 0-180 on each side)

[Baobobafet]

This is a better detail showing the pitch, yaw and roll display template with the masked over (invisible to pilot) areas shown in red.

[johnbartholomew]

A very basic unlabelled and somewhat ugly pitch ladder, just to check that I've got the maths right:

I should note that it has never been my intention to have this thing displayed all the time, only under a set altitude (say, 5km or so).

Regarding design, the obvious use for this is to help the pilot zero out roll and pitch during a surface landing. For that, you only need the horizon line. I'm having a hard time thinking of other circumstances where the pitch ladder or gauges are useful, and that makes it difficult to drive the design. You've mentioned resetting the gauges to put zero at the ship's current orientation -- is there a particular situation where this is useful? In general, can you think of any situations other than landing where knowledge of precise/numerical roll/pitch angle is useful that aren't already covered by the display of target position and velocity-relative-to-target?

[Baobobafet]

Hey great to see progress!

Good question, I can think of a couple - but I suspect a reference to ship's orientation relative to whatever a pilot might want to

compare his orientation with. Could only help a pilot better visualize an effective thrust direction to maneuver towards whatever his destination.

It allows you to easily find the 3-9 line of your ship so you can position your ship manually for way more complex and effective counter and pro thrust maneuvers along any vector and allows more accurate fine tuning to trajectory. Plus an accurate means of measuring that change. A lot will have to do with the imagination of the pilot in how to effectivly use this increased awareness and accuracy feature.

Its like taking a 3D protractor into space with you so you can use it to make bearings.
Now in a moving solar system probably your main bearing reference point would be the sun of that system.

Originaly I thought okay why not just have it use the target function, so you would be able directly to compare orientation to

your target(destination or reference body). Then I thought while useful, it is a bit limiting. So I thought better would be to leave it up to the pilot to simply point at whatever vector he wanted and simply compare his ships orientation against that.

While no where near as accurate as actual targeting - it allows a lot more flexibility because you can zero the readings even if you are not pointed at any particular target.
Personally I think both modes should exist(but if I had to choose I would choose the Zero readings at whatever orientation

approach for it's flexibility, in spite of it being less accurate.)

Those are just a few points I can think of off the top of my head, I'm sure someone more familiar with navigation could have something interesting thoughts to add.

I'll think on this some more and get back :)

[Brianetta]

I'm struggling to see a practical application within the game. Long trajectories involve a change in reference frame. This doesn't just affect your speed display. It also determines which body is exerting a gravity force on the ship. This means that all bets are off with respect to motion when crossing frame boundaries. Even the autopilot has to stop and rethink everything.

So, what practical application does a navigation device like this have?

A lot will have to do with the imagination of the pilot in how to effectivly use this increased awareness and accuracy feature.

More than a lot - any of it. Do you have a specific use case in mind, or perhaps two?

[Baobobafet]

Hey Brianetta I saw this comming :)

Here's one,

Okay lets say I'm flying along to some planet and I know that if I hold my heading at exactly 30 degrees to the left 20 degrees relative down from my launch point and maintain that exact heading I will meet my target at the perfect angle to fall into its orbit (all if done accurately it should succeed with no hands on the control in spite of being in manual mode). The last time I may have tried that maneuver I might have aimed at my destination too high or too low been too fast or slow - this way I can make those tiny adjustments and set my angle at 31 degrees left 19 degrees relative down on my next trip and succeed in my maneuver where before I had failed.

[Baobobafet]

3-9 line
If I want to apply my mains perpendicular to my vector there is no accurate reference (this could be important in an emergency when quick action is required). Without such a neutral reference I could easily be adding pro or retro thrust inadvertently and further misaligning any trajectory I may be on.

[Brianetta]

In response to the first: The angle of your ship has absolutely no bearing on your trajectory, unless your engines are firing. "Falling into orbit" will happen exactly the same even if you are tumbling wildly.

I'm still looking for a use case from you. You want to be able to fire perpendicular to your trajectory (please bear in mind that doing so immediately alters your trajectory, so your careful measurements will be off as soon as you use them) but I'm still wondering why you'd want to do that.

Please, carefully describe a situation where you'd be using these gauges, in detail. That way we'll know whether the additional UI complexity, screen clutter and development effort will be worth it.

[Baobobafet]

I should have said vector there, my appologies.

In the second case I should have said alters your speed oops :(

The reason you might want to suddenly change vector might be to simply avoid impact with something. Say a makeshift miscalculated orbital trajectory where you need your mains firing full power to stop from colliding with a sun. With a little math in your head and a reference measure tool you might figure that a perfect 90 burn for X minutes will save the day.
Or maybe it will be 160 degree burn relative to a pilots existing vector.

In the end it's simply a tool to quantify variations in pitch yaw and roll. It can be a factor in situational awarenes for a pilot if has a readily available relative up, down, left, right reference. This serves to create a more intuitive understanding of the space around a pilot's ship in more traditional reference terms. In the larger picture it can be used to determine a ships orientation relative to the plane of a solar system without having to turn on labels and visualy find reference bodys to surmise where the ecliptic is.

I'll keep my thinking cap on for more thoughts on this.

[johnbartholomew]

Just been going back over old issues. Related: #134

[Baobobafet]

Hey John,

One of the neater instruments mentioned was http://mamerominfo.retrogames.com/messbbc/elite.png. Wonder if theirs a way to implement that. Maybe my idea for the decent rate indicator arrows could be used in a similar manner?
Also if you feel any of my photoshop stuff used for the HUD mockup is useful, I can make them available to you.

[Baobobafet]

Edit:
This is an updated explanation of the above 'space hud' mode to allow accurate arbitrary measurements in ship orientation relative to environment.
Features:
Allows for ability to do precise 90' , 45' pro or 45' retro burns relative to trajectory (or any variation of degrees) Measurements such as this could allow recording and comparing of various trajectories, repeat-ability of maneuvers
(from saves is easy) employing different strategies could offer huge payback in being able to appreciate the dynamics and visceral feeling of spaceflight.Since being able to quantify ones movement in the vastness of space is the only cue there is that we are moving at all.
Tools are often used for various things - imagination is what can make them ever more useful.
If navigation buoys or some such system is ever employed to enable navigating through hazardous areas - such tools could become important..

In this updated explanation a mention of decent rate warning lights with audio cue.
Suggested above mentions using various colors depending on descent rate.(this may be more appropo than a simple flashing green dot)

This update includes all the psd files as well.;http://www.mediafire.com/?d7ok1y386rlf1h0

[nozmajner]

Closing, because UI related talks should be on the dev forum (we didn't had one back then :) ).
Also I think in-atmo UI needs a more throughout design.