Knowls should open above display math #515
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#364 has a different root cause and will get solved by reogranizing structure of the output. After initial revulsion at the fiddly work necessary for this, I realized it should just be a trivial extension of the very complicated XSL at 92764e2 (lists in paragraphs). That was of necessity, since browsers did not like lists in paragraphs. This is elective to accomodate knowl design/behavior. If we are going to carve author's logical paragraphs into many HTML Suppose a style indents, or otherwise visually indicates a paragraph start. We want that to happen if, and only if, the new |
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< p >Is it sufficient to just add one class
to indicate that the paragraph has continued.< /p >
\[
y = x^2
\]
< p class="continued">Like this?< /p >
… If we are going to carve author's logical paragraphs into many HTML p, can we use CSS to preserve
that distinction?
Suppose a style indents, or otherwise visually indicates a paragraph start. We want that to happen
if, and only if, the new p's are from the start of an author's paragraph. Not a serious suggestion
for names, but serious about function: one p.true-paragraph followed optionally by many
p.fake-paragraph. If you agree and provide class names, I can incorporate them as part of making
this happen.
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I expect that would get the job done. But it's your call. I am at your
service. I can write anything, and you get to style it. ;-)
No rush on the styling, I'll let you know when there is something to test.
Note that if a paragraph begins with a list, or now if it begins with display
math, then I make an empty first paragraph. Not sure how disasterous that is,
or if it needs to be squelched. Display math would be bad style, methinks, but
a paragraph with just a list might be a common occurrence.
…On 02/01/2017 12:33 PM, davidfarmer wrote:
< p >Is it sufficient to just add one class
to indicate that the paragraph has continued.< /p >
\[
y = x^2
\]
< p class="continued">Like this?< /p >
> If we are going to carve author's logical paragraphs into many HTML p, can we
use CSS to preserve
> that distinction?
>
> Suppose a style indents, or otherwise visually indicates a paragraph start. We
want that to happen
> if, and only if, the new p's are from the start of an author's paragraph. Not
a serious suggestion
> for names, but serious about function: one p.true-paragraph followed
optionally by many
> p.fake-paragraph. If you agree and provide class names, I can incorporate them
as part of making
> this happen.
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The continuation paragraph needs no styling yet. If we indented
paragraphs, then the continuation paragraph would need to not
indent. (Maybe it would look better with a bit less vertical
space between the display math and the continuation paragraph.
I can look when there is a sample.)
If you make an empty paragraph before a list, then I will submit
an issue for omitting it :). Such things mess up spacing. But
it can be tolerated temporarily.
If someone starts a paragraph with display math, well then that
is their problem.
…On Wed, 1 Feb 2017, Rob Beezer wrote:
I expect that would get the job done. But it's your call. I am at your
service. I can write anything, and you get to style it. ;-)
No rush on the styling, I'll let you know when there is something to test.
Note that if a paragraph begins with a list, or now if it begins with display
math, then I make an empty first paragraph. Not sure how disasterous that is,
or if it needs to be squelched. Display math would be bad style, methinks, but
a paragraph with just a list might be a common occurrence.
On 02/01/2017 12:33 PM, davidfarmer wrote:
>
> < p >Is it sufficient to just add one class
> to indicate that the paragraph has continued.< /p >
> \[
> y = x^2
> \]
> < p class="continued">Like this?< /p >
>
>
>> If we are going to carve author's logical paragraphs into many HTML p, can we
> use CSS to preserve
>> that distinction?
>>
>> Suppose a style indents, or otherwise visually indicates a paragraph start. We
> want that to happen
>> if, and only if, the new p's are from the start of an author's paragraph. Not
> a serious suggestion
>> for names, but serious about function: one p.true-paragraph followed
> optionally by many
>> p.fake-paragraph. If you agree and provide class names, I can incorporate them
> as part of making
>> this happen.
>
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I think I can prevent empty paragraphs from being emitted. But if there is no first paragraph, there needs to be an HTML First thought: drop an empty Second thought: wrap entire sequence of HTML elements ( Not serious, but for intent: Would this be a better plan? Not the motivation, but it would also be easier to skip empty paragraphs if the above features were extracted top an enclosing div. |
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Let me apparently contradict myself by saying that I am okay with
an empty HTML p when an MBX p begins with display math. I am okay
with that because it should not happen, so too bad for the author if
they choose to write that way.
Maybe the same argument applies with an MBX p starts with a list, and then
has words after the list. If an MBX p contains only a list, then I don't
think there is any need for the empty HTML p, but please correct me if I
am wrong.
Is there a common and reasonable use case for paragraphs that do not
start with words?
Let's evaluate the "wrapping in a big div" idea after we know more
about the problematic use cases.
…On Thu, 2 Feb 2017, Rob Beezer wrote:
I think I can prevent empty paragraphs from being emitted. But if there is no first paragraph, there
needs to be an HTML id there so cross-references (think index entries) have something to land on via
an "in-context" link for the original (authored, logical) paragraph.
First thought: drop an empty div with id where first paragraph goes. Problem: no, or minimal, pink
flash.
Second thought: wrap entire sequence of HTML elements (p, lists, display math) in one big div that
is the logical paragraph. This would carry the id and light up with pink flash. Paragraph spacing
CSS could apply to the big div. Still break up the paragaph into pieces withing the big div. "p",
etc, within could get less pronounced spacing. Knowls would open below the hext "p", etc, that carve
up the paragraph?
Not serious, but for intent: div.logical-paragraph.
Would this be a better plan? Not the motivation, but it would also be easier to skip empty
paragraphs if the above features were extracted top an enclosing div.
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On 02/03/2017 03:13 AM, davidfarmer wrote:
Let me apparently contradict myself by saying that I am okay with
an empty HTML p when an MBX p begins with display math. I am okay
with that because it should not happen, so too bad for the author if
they choose to write that way.
Agreed, but I think we have an opportunity to still handle that gracefully
without too much extra effort.
Maybe the same argument applies with an MBX p starts with a list, and then
has words after the list. If an MBX p contains only a list, then I don't
think there is any need for the empty HTML p, but please correct me if I
am wrong.
Right, no need for empty "p". But then have to tag the list with the HTML id, so
if "p" with lists
if just one "p" and nothing else
handle this list different than any others
It becomes a rather special special-case, with lots of nearly duplicate code.
Is there a common and reasonable use case for paragraphs that do not
start with words?
As above, a single lone list in a "p" is a semi-natural thing to want to do the
way MBX is structured.
Let's evaluate the "wrapping in a big div" idea after we know more
about the problematic use cases.
I like the idea, even before thinking about problems. It seems
necessary/advisable for just what we have now. I'll perhaps work up an example
for the sample article of current shortcomings (if I have it right in my head).
Rob
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I have some misgivings about a div that wraps some paragraphs but not
others, especially if the "continuation" class handles all the reasonable
cases, but I will keep an open mind.
…On Fri, 3 Feb 2017, Rob Beezer wrote:
On 02/03/2017 03:13 AM, davidfarmer wrote:
>
> Let me apparently contradict myself by saying that I am okay with
> an empty HTML p when an MBX p begins with display math. I am okay
> with that because it should not happen, so too bad for the author if
> they choose to write that way.
Agreed, but I think we have an opportunity to still handle that gracefully
without too much extra effort.
> Maybe the same argument applies with an MBX p starts with a list, and then
> has words after the list. If an MBX p contains only a list, then I don't
> think there is any need for the empty HTML p, but please correct me if I
> am wrong.
Right, no need for empty "p". But then have to tag the list with the HTML id, so
if "p" with lists
if just one "p" and nothing else
handle this list different than any others
It becomes a rather special special-case, with lots of nearly duplicate code.
> Is there a common and reasonable use case for paragraphs that do not
> start with words?
As above, a single lone list in a "p" is a semi-natural thing to want to do the
way MBX is structured.
> Let's evaluate the "wrapping in a big div" idea after we know more
> about the problematic use cases.
I like the idea, even before thinking about problems. It seems
necessary/advisable for just what we have now. I'll perhaps work up an example
for the sample article of current shortcomings (if I have it right in my head).
Rob
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OK, open minds are good. ;-)
Of course, I will defer to judgement on this sort of thing. But let me make a
careful proposal after more than the 10 minutes I spend yesterday staring at
existing XSL.
Rob
…On 02/03/2017 07:54 AM, davidfarmer wrote:
I have some misgivings about a div that wraps some paragraphs but not
others, especially if the "continuation" class handles all the reasonable
cases, but I will keep an open mind.
On Fri, 3 Feb 2017, Rob Beezer wrote:
> On 02/03/2017 03:13 AM, davidfarmer wrote:
> >
> > Let me apparently contradict myself by saying that I am okay with
> > an empty HTML p when an MBX p begins with display math. I am okay
> > with that because it should not happen, so too bad for the author if
> > they choose to write that way.
>
> Agreed, but I think we have an opportunity to still handle that gracefully
> without too much extra effort.
>
> > Maybe the same argument applies with an MBX p starts with a list, and then
> > has words after the list. If an MBX p contains only a list, then I don't
> > think there is any need for the empty HTML p, but please correct me if I
> > am wrong.
>
> Right, no need for empty "p". But then have to tag the list with the HTML id, so
>
> if "p" with lists
> if just one "p" and nothing else
> handle this list different than any others
>
> It becomes a rather special special-case, with lots of nearly duplicate code.
>
> > Is there a common and reasonable use case for paragraphs that do not
> > start with words?
>
> As above, a single lone list in a "p" is a semi-natural thing to want to do the
> way MBX is structured.
>
> > Let's evaluate the "wrapping in a big div" idea after we know more
> > about the problematic use cases.
>
> I like the idea, even before thinking about problems. It seems
> necessary/advisable for just what we have now. I'll perhaps work up an example
> for the sample article of current shortcomings (if I have it right in my head).
>
> Rob
>
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Dear David, Two paragraphs in new Section 12.7. Both have Second becomes three peers. A Go to index, find "paragraph" entry. Open knowl for each, then use "in-context" for each. First will pink-flash, as it should. Second does not - because there is no there there. http://mathbook.pugetsound.edu/examples/sample-article/html/section-12.html#subsection-28 Rob |
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Well, I still await a reasonable example of a logical paragraph
that starts with a list. But, I'm willing to address this
particular issue without knowing that such an example exists.
The p that currently lacks an id will eventually get a
class="continuation", or whatever word we choose, right?
Well, it looks like it should also have an id. I tentatively
suggest that the id of an HTML continuation paragraph should be the
id of the HTML paragraph it continues, appended with something
like "c1" for the first continuation, then "c2", etc.
At the moment the ids of paragraphs tend to be auto-generated.
Mature documents will have paragraph ids that are assigned (this
is part of the grand plan to smoothly handle editions of books).
So both cases need to be handled.
…On Sun, 5 Feb 2017, Rob Beezer wrote:
Dear David,
Two paragraphs in new Section 12.7. Both have index entries. First paragraph is normal. Second
starts with a list and then has some content.
Second becomes three peers. A p with the id of the paragraph, then the li, and then the p with the
rest.
Go to index, find "paragraph" entry. Open knowl for each, then use "in-context" for each. First will
pink-flash, as it should. Second does not - because there is no there there.
http://mathbook.pugetsound.edu/examples/sample-article/html/section-12.html#subsection-28
Rob
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Dear David, Yes, I agree the example is not reasonable. But I have seen single lists in paragraphs as their only content. Maybe they should become "named" lists. The automatic id scheme, which is used for many, many things, reflects source structure, not output structure. So a -c1, -c2, would be a big departure. And deciding how such a paragraph splits up is very complicated in XSL - so probably not something to do repeatedly (which might be necessary). The lack of an "id" is not the problem. The id of the logical paragraph is on the first carved-up paragraph, which is empty. So the in-context cross-reference goes to the right place, but there is no content for the pink-flash to illuminate. There is nothing in the HTML preserving the author's intent of grouping certain material in a (logical) paragraph. Let me more carefully suggest the overall div and you can more carefully object. One new class: div.logical-paragraph
Seems you get a new class one way or the other, This decomposition is one of the most complicated things I've put together. I really do not want to over-complicate it. I think the above is an improvement on current code, even for rationally-authored paragraphs. Rob |
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I (quickly) re-read this thread, and still think that class="continuation" is the preferred solution. There may be cases where 1 "logical-paragraph" contains more information than The index example with a reference list needs to be fixed. That beings the separate problem: |
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I will try continuation. Question 1. What happens if first paragraph is empty. Very bad style, but it happens. I can proceed, but ideas welcome. Question 2. If additionally, the content of author's logical paragraph is wrapped in a div with no class, but just an id as target for cross-reference, will bad things happen? I might make a test instance. |
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Splitting paragraphs up in HTML output the same way it was done to accomodate lists (a simple modification of that routine). Testing below applies this to paragraphs where born, but not inside of knowl content (tedious duplication I will do once debugged).
http://mathbook.pugetsound.edu/beta/continuation-20170515 http://mathbook.pugetsound.edu/beta/continuation-div-20170515 |
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A few points:
1) I think too much is being done to accommodate cases which should
not exist, such as paragraphs beginning with display math.
2) I also think too much is being done to explicitly preserve the
document structure in the HTML.
3) If the above is wrong, it is because there is some use case which
I do not understand.
4) Why don't the .continuation p's get an id?
What do we miss by:
a) Never outputting an empty p
b) Having an id on every p, and having the pink flash apply to the p#id
that contains the index entry?
c) Having p.continuation be the only clue that the one bock of text is
in the same logical paragraph as the previous block of text?
…On Mon, 15 May 2017, Rob Beezer wrote:
Splitting paragraphs up in HTML output the same way it was done to accomodate lists (a simple
modification of that routine). Testing below applies this to paragraphs where born, but not inside of
knowl content (tedious duplication I will do once debugged).
1. Disclaimer: perhaps not consistent with significant parts of above discussion. Take this as a
starting point, not a fait accompli.
2. Testing example is Subsection 4.8 of beta sample articles below.
3. Display math is now naked at top-level. In other words it has no extra wrapping and is a child of
article or similar. It could be wrapped easily.
4. "continuation" version has an initial paragraph with the id of the logical paragraph. Subsequent
paragraphs have continuation class.
5. "continuation-div" wraps the whole logical paragraph and places the label of the logical
paragraph onto this div, rather than on the initial split-out paragraph. Otherwise identical to
above.
6. Two index entries, which will behave very differently in two beta versions. paragraph!empty
target, and paragraph!three pieces
7. First paragraph of the sequence could easily get a class. And/or all un-split paragraphs could
get a class, same or different.
8. Test has "bad" paragraph with empty paragraph. That's where the id goes. So I can only omit it if
the id has some other home.
http://mathbook.pugetsound.edu/beta/continuation-20170515
http://mathbook.pugetsound.edu/beta/continuation-div-20170515
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Dan you also put a "normal" paragraph, i.e., one that is just some
words with no display math, in the Section 4.8 so that we can test
any interaction with .continuation?
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Lightly following this, not the details. I will just say that the one place I see display math at the start of a I could maybe be convinced that this is inappropriate too, and that it should be inline math with I could maybe be convinced that the list item should just have the math content instead of being wrapped in a |
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If there is an index entry somewhere inside a list item, then
maybe the list item should get the pink flash from the in-context
link? So, it doesn't hurt that in such a case it might be
reasonable to have a p start with a display formula. (Because,
as Alex noted, that is sort-of an artifact for requiring li entries
to be wrapped in a p).
I acknowledge that there could be some extremely long list entries,
where the pink flash fails to localize you to the specific block of
text where the index entry is located. But maybe that is rare enough
that the above suggestion is more often correct.
…On Mon, 15 May 2017, Alex Jordan wrote:
Lightly following this, not the details. I will just say that the one place I see display math at the
start of a p is when the p is in a list item. For example, in a multi-part exercise (either its
statement or its solution).
I could maybe be convinced that this is inappropriate too, and that it should be inline math with
\displaystyle, or using \begin{aligned} instead of an md.
I could maybe be convinced that the list item should just have the math content instead of being
wrapped in a p, but it has been nice to just consistently use p within list items and not worry about
doing one thing sometimes and another thing other times.
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First paragraph is "normal."
Tell me exactly where you want more and I will add them. There is a
combinatorial explosion of interactions with normal, subdivision heading,
subdivision ending, continuation, etc. ;-)
…On 05/15/2017 10:40 AM, davidfarmer wrote:
Dan you also put a "normal" paragraph, i.e., one that is just some
words with no display math, in the Section 4.8 so that we can test
any interaction with .continuation?
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How about a normal paragraph directly above
"A very similar paragraph to the one above"
…On Mon, 15 May 2017, Rob Beezer wrote:
First paragraph is "normal."
Tell me exactly where you want more and I will add them. There is a
combinatorial explosion of interactions with normal, subdivision heading,
subdivision ending, continuation, etc. ;-)
On 05/15/2017 10:40 AM, davidfarmer wrote:
>
> Dan you also put a "normal" paragraph, i.e., one that is just some
> words with no display math, in the Section 4.8 so that we can test
> any interaction with .continuation?
>
>
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OK, thanks. Coming up, though will take several minutes to rebuild/post examples.
Working on named lists in side-by-side for Carly, then will pick up discussion.
…On 05/15/2017 11:00 AM, davidfarmer wrote:
How about a normal paragraph directly above
"A very similar paragraph to the one above"
On Mon, 15 May 2017, Rob Beezer wrote:
> First paragraph is "normal."
>
> Tell me exactly where you want more and I will add them. There is a
> combinatorial explosion of interactions with normal, subdivision heading,
> subdivision ending, continuation, etc. ;-)
>
> On 05/15/2017 10:40 AM, davidfarmer wrote:
> >
> > Dan you also put a "normal" paragraph, i.e., one that is just some
> > words with no display math, in the Section 4.8 so that we can test
> > any interaction with .continuation?
> >
> >
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New paragraph as requested. Same two URLs for examples.
Untested and unexamined - so reply if something is not right.
…On 05/15/2017 11:00 AM, davidfarmer wrote:
How about a normal paragraph directly above
"A very similar paragraph to the one above"
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We agree that having knowls open "sooner" is a desirable improvement for HTML
output. Other formats, like LaTeX, EPUB, Jupyter notebooks, cannot support
knowls and maybe never will. So for reasons explained below, I feel like too
much is being asked for just one type of output, albeit the best type.
I like the pink flash, so would like to have it work as well as possible.
The current xml:id/ref scheme is simplicity itself, underpins a wide range of
functionality, and is output-agnostic. I do not want to assign new HTML id's to
parts of a paragraph to support HTML features only. Determining a
cross-reference target based on the location within a paragraph will be even
more complicated than the current code to break a paragraph into pieces. If we
need new id's for tracking use, then I'd like to create a new scheme for that,
which fits the purpose.
a. I know I can supress empty paragraphs. In this case, assigning one ID will
become hard. Assigning many will get extremely difficult.
b. We lose a very simple 1-1 correspondence between authored elements and id's.
As discussed above.
c. Not such a big deal. A fiddle if first paragraph is empty and removed.
Retaining the document structure of the logical paragraph is so that (i) pink
flash is true to author's intent, (ii) the universal id/ref scheme remains
simple and universal.
I am comfortable with the decision to put lists and display math within
paragraphs. It certainly solves some problems with lists. But at one point, I
was going to have lists and display math live outside paragraphs and as peers.
This entire discussion would have been moot in that case.
I realize my reservations are largely motivated by avoiding complex code. But
this is a place where I feel that modularity and stability are important.
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The bust-up routine for HTML output of PTX paragraphs into HTML paragraphs now accomodates the four types of display mathematics ( There will always be an empty HTML paragraph in output as original content if a PTX paragraph begins with a list or display mathematics. It carries the HTML id for the authored paragraph. Empty paragraphs are not output for duplicate content. It may still be possible to provoke an empty HTML paragraph partway through - an example in the sample article shows that one such attempt will fail. Basically this is due to punctuation post-math migrating into the display and leaving "nothing" behind. Erring on the side of caution, so that no real content gets ignored. I would still like to see a |
In a paragraph of the form
words knowl words
display math
more words
the knowl should open above "display math", but currently it opens below "more words".
Even though all of this is actually one true paragraph, the fix is make "words knowl words"
and "more words" into their own p paragraphs in html.
Related to issue #364 .
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