Razer Kiyo Pro Ultra PCAP needed #19

soyersoyer · 2023-04-27T02:58:36Z

The Razer Kiyo Pro Ultra is the new 'best webcam'. It would be cool to support its special features.
If you have one, please capture USB communication with Wireshark while changing special settings in windows with synapse.

pohlt · 2023-06-01T08:14:55Z

I should get mine next week and will hopefully find the time to provide the required information...

soyersoyer · 2023-06-01T18:44:56Z

That's cool!
I will need an usb vendor and product id, the output of the lsusb -v -d vendorid:productid, and the usb traffic sniffed with wireshark+USBPcap for every non standard control while changing its values. One control per pcap file to make it easier, and the values you set.

pohlt · 2023-06-06T10:29:13Z

Got my Kiyo Pro Ultra this morning. \o/

"non standard" are all the messages which are not identifed in the info string I guess: "Zoom (absolute)" is recognized, "Unit 6 control 0x1" is not, right?

Do you need:

sent SET CUR Request packages
anything sent to the device
responses (which responses because if I include the image stream is gets BIG)

Should I send it as PM? I can also put it on my Google Drive and share the folder with you. What's most convenient for you?

soyersoyer · 2023-06-06T11:28:57Z

Yes, there are standard uvc controls, that wireshark/linux uvc/anything handles well. Other controls can usually be used with extension units.
Could you filter with frame.protocols == "usb:usbvideo"?
Then you can upload them to google drive and post the links here or create a git repo for them.

pohlt · 2023-06-06T12:42:12Z

Here's a first try with the preview resolution and the 2d/3d noise reduction. Please find the captures and the desciption file here.

Once I see how you would add it to your repo, I might be able to do the rest by myself and create a PR.

USB ID: 1532:0E08 (rev 0821)

soyersoyer · 2023-06-06T13:16:02Z

These look different than the kiyo pro traffic. Where is the "Unit 6 control 0x1" thing?

pohlt · 2023-06-06T15:44:20Z

For some reason, they are called differently when I load the capture file. But I just checked the data fragment (e.g. Data Fragment: c00e010100000000) and they are exactly what you get in the "Unit 6 control 0x1" thing.

soyersoyer · 2023-06-06T16:37:29Z

Ah, okey :)

So the noise reduction values in changing order:
c00e020000000000
c00e010100000000
c00e020100000000
c00e010100000000
c00e020100000000
c00e010000000000
c00e010100000000
c00e020100000000

I assume
2D_NR_OFF = c00e020000000000
2D_NR_ON = c00e020100000000
3D_NR_OFF = c00e010000000000
3D_NR_ON = c00e010100000000

I only need an extension unit guid to reliably get the bUnitID from the code.
This can get from lsusb -v -d 1532:0E08|grep -B 2 guidExtensionCode

The preview resolution changes should work without any modification. It shouldn't use these control things.

pohlt · 2023-06-06T20:35:48Z

❯ lsusb -v -d 1532:0E08 | grep -B 2 guidExtensionCode
Couldn't open device, some information will be missing
        bDescriptorSubtype      6 (EXTENSION_UNIT)
        bUnitID                 2
        guidExtensionCode         {2c49d16a-32b8-4485-3ea8-643a152362f2}
--
        bDescriptorSubtype      6 (EXTENSION_UNIT)
        bUnitID                 6
        guidExtensionCode         {23e49ed0-1178-4f31-ae52-d2fb8a8d3b48}

soyersoyer · 2023-06-06T21:10:42Z

Same as Kiyo Pro.
I've created a branch .
Could you try it?

pohlt · 2023-06-07T04:52:12Z

Works! I can't tell the difference for 2D NR on/off (it's the same with Synapse), but turning 3D NR on/off is very obvious. Awesome! Thanks a lot!

I'll let you know when I have more captures.

pohlt · 2023-06-07T05:05:48Z

Exposure - Auto Mode

Metering

Average: c00e040000000000
Center: c00e040100000000
Face: c00e040500000000

Compensation

The range is -3 - 3 for Average and _Center. The range is -1 to 3 for Face.

-3.0: c00e050000000000
-2.8: c00e050200000000
-2.6: c00e050400000000
...
0.0: c00e051e00000000
...
+3.0: c00e053c00000000

Synapse also offers the values in between (e.g. -2.9), but the sent value is rounded to one of the values listed above (e.g. cc00e0502). We could try to send the values in between (e.g. c00e050_1_00000000, but YMMV).

Exposure - Manual Mode

ISO Value

ISO 100: c009010100000000
ISO 200: c009010200000000
ISO 400: c009010300000000
ISO 800: c009010400000000
ISO 1600: c009010500000000
ISO 3200: c009010600000000
ISO 6400: c009010700000000

Shutter Speed

If you remove the trailing "00" byte, the last three bytes give you the shutter speed in µs.
Example: 0x01f4 = 500 µs = 1/2000 s

1/2000 s: c00905000001f400
1/1600 s: c009050000027100
1/1280 s: c009050000030d00
1/1000 s: c00905000003e800
1/800 s: c00905000004e200
1/640 s: c009050000061a00
500, 400, 320, 250, 200, 160, 120, 100, 90, 75, 60, 50, 40, 33, 30, 25, 24, 20, 17, 16, 15, 13, 12, 11
1/10 s: c00905000186a000

pohlt · 2023-06-07T08:35:11Z

Focus - Auto

Mode

Standard: c00a010000000000
Face: c00a010100000000

Tracking:

Passive: ff06010000000000
Responsive: ff06000000000000

Lighting Type

Standard: c00a010000000000
Stylized: c00a010000000001

Image

Mirror Video

on: c00e030100000000
off: c00e030000000000

pohlt · 2023-06-08T12:51:15Z

Lens Distortion

off: ff01000300000000
on: ff01010300000000

Same settings (like this one) need the camera to be restarted to show their effect.

soyersoyer · 2023-06-08T16:08:06Z

Shutter speed is interesting, there is UVC control for that. Doesn't it use the V4L2_CID_EXPOSURE_ABSOLUTE (CT_EXPOSURE_TIME_ABSOLUTE_CONTROL)?
Could you post the output of the ./cameractrls.py -l?

soyersoyer · 2023-06-08T22:39:56Z

I've added the new controls to kiyoproultra.

pohlt · 2023-06-09T04:25:33Z

Shutter speed is interesting, there is UVC control for that. Doesn't it use the V4L2_CID_EXPOSURE_ABSOLUTE (CT_EXPOSURE_TIME_ABSOLUTE_CONTROL)? Could you post the output of the ./cameractrls.py -l?

❯ python cameractrls.py  -l
Basic / Crop
 zoom_absolute = 150    ( default: 110 min: 100 max: 400 )
 pan_absolute = 0       ( default: 0 min: -36000 max: 36000 step: 3600 )
 tilt_absolute = 0      ( default: 0 min: -36000 max: 36000 step: 3600 )
Basic / Focus
 focus_automatic_continuous = 0 ( default: 1 min: 0 max: 1 )
 focus_absolute = 115   ( default: 1 min: 1 max: 450 )
Exposure / Exposure
 auto_exposure = manual_mode    ( default: aperture_priority_mode values: manual_mode, aperture_priority_mode )
 exposure_time_absolute = 156   ( default: 156 min: 3 max: 2047 )
 exposure_dynamic_framerate = 1 ( default: 0 min: 0 max: 1 )
 gain = 29      ( default: 0 min: 0 max: 255 )
Exposure / Dynamic Range
 backlight_compensation = 1     ( default: 0 min: 0 max: 1 )
Color / Balance
 white_balance_automatic = 0    ( default: 1 min: 0 max: 1 )
 white_balance_temperature = 3490       ( default: 5000 min: 2800 max: 7500 step: 10 )
Color / Color
 brightness = 128       ( default: 128 min: 0 max: 255 )
 contrast = 128 ( default: 128 min: 0 max: 255 )
 saturation = 128       ( default: 128 min: 0 max: 255 )
 sharpness = 128        ( default: 128 min: 0 max: 255 )
Advanced / Power Line
 power_line_frequency = 50_hz   ( default: 60_hz values: disabled, 50_hz, 60_hz )
Advanced / Processing
 kiyo_pro_ultra_nr_2d = None    ( values: off, on )
 kiyo_pro_ultra_nr_3d = None    ( values: off, on )
Advanced / Other
 kiyo_pro_ultra_distortion_correction = None    ( values: off, on )
Capture / Capture
 pixelformat = NV12     ( values: YUYV, MJPG, H264, NV12 )
 resolution = 640x480   ( values: 640x480, 640x360, 1280x720, 1920x1080, 2560x1440, 3840x2160 )
 fps = 30       ( values: 60, 30, 24, 20, 15, 10, 5 )
Capture / Info
 card = Razer Kiyo Pro Ultra
 driver = uvcvideo
 path = /dev/video0
 real_path = /dev/video0
Settings / Save
 systemd_save           ( buttons: save )

pohlt · 2023-06-09T04:47:17Z

All of the exposure-related stuff seems to work, but depending on manual or auto mode, some parameters should be disabled (I split the exposure stuff in two section: auto, manual).
Focus-related parameters seems to work.
Advanced parameters are fine, too, but "Lens Distortion Compensation" need a stream restart to show an effect.

There's still some HDR stuff missing, but we've covered about 90% now I guess. 🥳
This is great. Thanks a lot!

One thing I don't understand: The automatic white balance is way too warm. I always have to set it manually to about 4500 to not look like I'm sitting in front of a crackling bonfire. AWB works fine in Win 11. 🤔

soyersoyer · 2023-06-09T08:19:24Z

It is interesting, that it has an H264 encoder, but the specification page doesn't mention it.
The specs says it has 82°- 72° field of view. Does it have a control for it in Synapse? Or only 640x480 has 72° FoV?
Could you post the output of the v4l2-ctl --list-formats-ext?

What happens if you change the exposure_time_absolute? Does it have the same effect as shutter speed? (the former is in 100 µs)

The nonfunctional AWB is interesting. Does it work outside Synapse in Win?

soyersoyer · 2023-06-09T08:53:56Z

The FoV is 72° with Lens distortion compensation, without 82°.
The manual says, Synapse has a save button. Could you capture it?
The exposure_time_absolute is in 100µs, but I think they want 1µs precision (closer to 1/60s), so we also have a shutter speed control.
What is the shutter speed value at 1/60? (16666 or 16667)

pohlt · 2023-06-09T13:40:20Z

Could you post the output of the v4l2-ctl --list-formats-ext?

❯ v4l2-ctl --list-formats-ext
ioctl: VIDIOC_ENUM_FMT
        Type: Video Capture

        [0]: 'YUYV' (YUYV 4:2:2)
                Size: Discrete 640x480
                        Interval: Discrete 0.017s (60.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
                Size: Discrete 640x360
                        Interval: Discrete 0.017s (60.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
                Size: Discrete 1280x720
                        Interval: Discrete 0.017s (60.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
                Size: Discrete 1920x1080
                        Interval: Discrete 0.017s (60.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
        [1]: 'MJPG' (Motion-JPEG, compressed)
                Size: Discrete 640x480
                        Interval: Discrete 0.017s (60.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
                Size: Discrete 640x360
                        Interval: Discrete 0.017s (60.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
                Size: Discrete 1280x720
                        Interval: Discrete 0.017s (60.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
                Size: Discrete 1920x1080
                        Interval: Discrete 0.017s (60.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
                Size: Discrete 2560x1440
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
                Size: Discrete 3840x2160
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
        [2]: 'H264' (H.264, compressed)
                Size: Discrete 640x480
                        Interval: Discrete 0.017s (60.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
                Size: Discrete 640x360
                        Interval: Discrete 0.017s (60.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
                Size: Discrete 1280x720
                        Interval: Discrete 0.017s (60.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
                Size: Discrete 1920x1080
                        Interval: Discrete 0.017s (60.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
        [3]: 'NV12' (Y/UV 4:2:0)
                Size: Discrete 640x480
                        Interval: Discrete 0.017s (60.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
                Size: Discrete 640x360
                        Interval: Discrete 0.017s (60.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
                Size: Discrete 1280x720
                        Interval: Discrete 0.017s (60.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
                Size: Discrete 1920x1080
                        Interval: Discrete 0.017s (60.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
                Size: Discrete 2560x1440
                        Interval: Discrete 0.033s (30.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)
                Size: Discrete 3840x2160
                        Interval: Discrete 0.042s (24.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.050s (20.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.067s (15.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.100s (10.000 fps)
                        Interval: Discrete 0.200s (5.000 fps)

pohlt · 2023-06-09T14:05:10Z

The exposure time setting is weird:

The image looks the same for any value between 3 and 2046.
Only for 2047 the image is much brighter (actually too bright).

The shutter time setting behaves much more predictable and as expected.

The two settings seem to influence each other:

If I change the exposure time to any value between 3-2046, the shutter time seems to be set implicitly to a value of about 30,000.
If I set the exposure time to 2047 (image too bright), it seems to be reset to a value between 3-2046 when I set any shutter time value.

pohlt · 2023-06-09T15:14:52Z

What is the shutter speed value at 1/60? (16666 or 16667)

It's 16666.

soyersoyer · 2023-06-09T15:15:53Z

I've added a better slider for the shutter speed.

pohlt · 2023-06-09T15:20:39Z

Save seems to be c003a80000000000.
Right before the save, there's a c0090a0000000000.

Even if I don't change anything, there are often c009060000000000 and c009080000000000 in the mix.

soyersoyer · 2023-06-09T15:34:35Z

Save added.
Do they return anything? There is a query if the control parameter is 0x02, (not 0x01).

Bleuzen · 2023-09-07T15:06:08Z

Hi, what is the current state of this?
Any help needed?

pohlt · 2023-09-07T17:06:03Z

I'm currently too busy to contribute so if you own a Kiyo feel free to fill in the gaps. There is some basic support, though.

soyersoyer · 2023-09-07T19:53:50Z

Did the save work?

Provide feedback

Saved searches

Use saved searches to filter your results more quickly

Razer Kiyo Pro Ultra PCAP needed #19

Razer Kiyo Pro Ultra PCAP needed #19

soyersoyer commented Apr 27, 2023 •

edited

Loading

pohlt commented Jun 1, 2023

soyersoyer commented Jun 1, 2023 •

edited

Loading

pohlt commented Jun 6, 2023

soyersoyer commented Jun 6, 2023

pohlt commented Jun 6, 2023 •

edited

Loading

soyersoyer commented Jun 6, 2023

pohlt commented Jun 6, 2023

soyersoyer commented Jun 6, 2023 •

edited

Loading

pohlt commented Jun 6, 2023

soyersoyer commented Jun 6, 2023 •

edited

Loading

pohlt commented Jun 7, 2023

pohlt commented Jun 7, 2023 •

edited

Loading

pohlt commented Jun 7, 2023

pohlt commented Jun 8, 2023 •

edited

Loading

soyersoyer commented Jun 8, 2023 •

edited

Loading

soyersoyer commented Jun 8, 2023 •

edited

Loading

pohlt commented Jun 9, 2023

pohlt commented Jun 9, 2023

soyersoyer commented Jun 9, 2023 •

edited

Loading

soyersoyer commented Jun 9, 2023 •

edited

Loading

pohlt commented Jun 9, 2023 •

edited

Loading

pohlt commented Jun 9, 2023

pohlt commented Jun 9, 2023

soyersoyer commented Jun 9, 2023

pohlt commented Jun 9, 2023

soyersoyer commented Jun 9, 2023

Bleuzen commented Sep 7, 2023

pohlt commented Sep 7, 2023

soyersoyer commented Sep 7, 2023

Razer Kiyo Pro Ultra PCAP needed #19

Razer Kiyo Pro Ultra PCAP needed #19

Comments

soyersoyer commented Apr 27, 2023 • edited Loading

pohlt commented Jun 1, 2023

soyersoyer commented Jun 1, 2023 • edited Loading

pohlt commented Jun 6, 2023

soyersoyer commented Jun 6, 2023

pohlt commented Jun 6, 2023 • edited Loading

soyersoyer commented Jun 6, 2023

pohlt commented Jun 6, 2023

soyersoyer commented Jun 6, 2023 • edited Loading

pohlt commented Jun 6, 2023

soyersoyer commented Jun 6, 2023 • edited Loading

pohlt commented Jun 7, 2023

pohlt commented Jun 7, 2023 • edited Loading

Exposure - Auto Mode

Metering

Compensation

Exposure - Manual Mode

ISO Value

Shutter Speed

pohlt commented Jun 7, 2023

Focus - Auto

Mode

Tracking:

Lighting Type

Image

Mirror Video

pohlt commented Jun 8, 2023 • edited Loading

Lens Distortion

soyersoyer commented Jun 8, 2023 • edited Loading

soyersoyer commented Jun 8, 2023 • edited Loading

pohlt commented Jun 9, 2023

pohlt commented Jun 9, 2023

soyersoyer commented Jun 9, 2023 • edited Loading

soyersoyer commented Jun 9, 2023 • edited Loading

pohlt commented Jun 9, 2023 • edited Loading

pohlt commented Jun 9, 2023

pohlt commented Jun 9, 2023

soyersoyer commented Jun 9, 2023

pohlt commented Jun 9, 2023

soyersoyer commented Jun 9, 2023

Bleuzen commented Sep 7, 2023

pohlt commented Sep 7, 2023

soyersoyer commented Sep 7, 2023

soyersoyer commented Apr 27, 2023 •

edited

Loading

soyersoyer commented Jun 1, 2023 •

edited

Loading

pohlt commented Jun 6, 2023 •

edited

Loading

soyersoyer commented Jun 6, 2023 •

edited

Loading

soyersoyer commented Jun 6, 2023 •

edited

Loading

pohlt commented Jun 7, 2023 •

edited

Loading

pohlt commented Jun 8, 2023 •

edited

Loading

soyersoyer commented Jun 8, 2023 •

edited

Loading

soyersoyer commented Jun 8, 2023 •

edited

Loading

soyersoyer commented Jun 9, 2023 •

edited

Loading

soyersoyer commented Jun 9, 2023 •

edited

Loading

pohlt commented Jun 9, 2023 •

edited

Loading