New quest: Can bicycles be transported in this elevator? (bicycle=* on highway=elevator)

[mcliquid]

General

Affected tag(s) to be modified/added: bicycle
Question asked: Can bicycles be transported in this elevator?

Checklist

Checklist for quest suggestions (see guidelines):

• 🚧 To be added tag is established and has a useful purpose
  The usage of bicycle on highway=elevator is already documented in the wiki.
• 🤔 Any answer the user can give must have an equivalent tagging (Quest should not reappear to other users when solved by one)
  One can answer "Yes" (bicycle=yes) or "No" (bicycle=no) - both Values are documented.
• 🐿️ Easily answerable by any pedestrian from the outside but a survey is necessary
  No more difficult than the toilet or wheelchair quest.
• 💤 Not an overwhelming percentage of quests have the same answer (No spam)
  If the filter logic is well tuned, most of the obvious "no" responses should disappear.
• 🕓 Applies to a reasonable number of map data (Worth the effort)
  In Germany, 4502 objects are eligible, of which 791 already have information about bicycle transport. This means that ~83 % of all elevators lack this information.
  3712

Ideas for implementation

Element selection:
OverpassTurbo for Germany: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/1C0i

nodes, ways with
highway = elevator
and access !~ private|no
and !bicycle

// LAZY AROUND 500m FILTER
nodes, ways with
railway ~ station|halt
or aerialway ~ station
and access !~ private|no

In ski resorts this information is also relevant, because in summer most but not all ski lifts (gondola/cable cars) carry bicycles.

Proposed UI:
Simple "Yes/No" question (YesNoQuestForm), comparable to WheelchairAccess Quest.

Potential circumstances

• It must be assumed that the "around" approach also selects nearby elevators that do not belong to the station but are located in a nearby private house. For this it would be helpful to assign an access=private to these elevators via "More answers".
• Unsure if access=customers should be excluded. Basically, passengers are also customers.
• Unsure if bus stops should be included. Presumably most (rural) do not have elevators.

I couldn't find a quest with an Around filter in a hurry, but if that feature already exists, I might take it up.

[matkoniecz]

note that for elevators in Poland this is typically not really clear at all, is never signed from what I have seen and main limitation in practice is whether bicycle will fir (possibly upright)

No more difficult than the toilet or wheelchair quest.

Not really, checking for wheelchair ramp/platform/elevator is much easier.

[mcliquid]

note that for elevators in Poland this is typically not really clear at all, is never signed from what I have seen and main limitation in practice is whether bicycle will fir (possibly upright)

In my research I did not find a photo where it is forbidden to carry bicycles in the elevator, so instead of "Is it legally allowed to carry bicycles in this elevator?" I chose "Can bicycles be transported in this elevator?".
Alternatively, it can be "Is it possible to transport a bicycle in this elevator?"

There are not really images on wikimedia, at least I can't find some good. Here's one:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:V%C3%A9lo_dans_ascenseur,_gare_de_Vichy.jpg

On this image you can spot a small bicycle on the blue sign on the right side of the door:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bahnhof_Wangen_Aufzug_Gleis_1.jpg

This elevator is definitly big enough:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Accessible_Elevator_at_Exit_B_of_Jingtai_Station,_Beijing_Metro.jpg

And don't forget the elevator in the "Alter Elbtunnel" in Hamburg:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:00_0952_Alter_Elbtunnel_-_Hamburg.jpg

Here are some press images from the S Bahn Berlin:
https://sbahn.berlin/das-unternehmen/presse/pressebilder/mobil-mit-der-s-bahn-2/aufzuege-und-rolltreppen-5/

Not really, checking for wheelchair ramp/platform/elevator is much easier.

However, I believe that if someone can judge whether a place is wheelchair accessible or not, that person can also judge whether a bicycle fits in an elevator. Even with wheelchairs, there are different sized designs as well as individual preferences.

If someone would give me a hint regarding the area filter, I would try my luck at the quest :)

[mnalis]

As in Poland, it would by very rare in Croatia to see it signed whether it is legal / acceptable to take bicycle in the lift in majority of the cases, so there is big Verifiability issue there.
Thus, the quest (as proposed) would likely fail "🐿️ Easily answerable by any pedestrian" in Croatia for common SC mapper (unless the different tag is to be used, see below).

I see you say:

One can answer "Yes" (bicycle=yes) or "No" (bicycle=no) - both Values are documented.

and

In my research I did not find a photo where it is forbidden to carry bicycles in the elevator, so instead of "Is it legally allowed to carry bicycles in this elevator?" I chose "Can bicycles be transported in this elevator?".
Alternatively, it can be "Is it possible to transport a bicycle in this elevator?"

That sounds useful, but that is completely different question, and one that explicitly is not to be answered with bicycle=* tag (which is, as all other access tags, explicitly about "Legal restriction for cyclists").

So if one wanted to tag whether bicycle fits physically (regardless of whether it is legally allowed), they would have to find and use some other tag for that purpose. There have been few uses of (still undocumented) bicycle:physical=* , so perhaps something like that is an option, or one might choose to use more versatile and much more verifiable width=*, length=* and height=* (which also happen to be much more popular; and which I would recommend too -- e.g. just because your 26" MTB might fit in some elevator, does not mean my cargo bike will fit too).

---

That being said, while some people (including myself) might be fine with adding bicycle=no on places where it is physically impossible to use bicycle (as no human law can ever trump physical laws, whether something which is impossible is legally allowed or not is a moot point, as it would not make the slightest difference for any data consumers), there are many people who would object there too, just on the basis of principle of things.

But absolutely huge majority (definitely including me) would vehemently disagree with idea of adding bicycle=yes on places where bicycle fits just fine physically, but it is legally actually not allowed (even if there is only an infinitesimally small chance that you might actually get fined in practice).

[matkoniecz]

Also, question "is bicycle fitting into this elevator" is not easy to answer and obvious - even for cyclists!

For start, what about cases when bicycle fits but only in upright position?

[mcliquid]

As in Poland, it would by very rare in Croatia to see it signed whether it is legal / acceptable to take bicycle in the lift in majority of the cases, so there is big Verifiability issue there.

How often do you find signage that a place is wheelchair accessible? Isn't it always the viewer's learned perception that is decisive here? Nevertheless, the question is asked: Is this place wheelchair accessible?
How verifiable is this then really?

Thus, the quest (as proposed) would likely fail "🐿️ Easily answerable by any pedestrian" in Croatia for common SC mapper (unless the different tag is to be used, see below).

Considered on a balance scale, what do you find easier to answer as a pedestrian: Whether a restaurant also serves vegan food or whether a bicycle fits in an elevator?

[westnordost]

// LAZY AROUND 500m FILTER

Actually, this will not work in this app. Data is downloaded in small tiles, what's 500m in any direction of a tile is unknown.

So... it will only work partially: A quest will be created if there is a train stop within the downloaded area and max 500m away from the elevator, but if the train stop happens to not be in the downloaded area even though it may be very close by, no quest will be created.

[westnordost]

Also, to solve this quest, you probably would need to have a bicycle (of standard size) with you, no? Sounds like a huge requirement, few people use StreetComplete while pushing a bike.

[mcliquid]

Also, to solve this quest, you probably would need to have a bicycle (of standard size) with you, no?

Do you need a wheelchair to answer wheelchair quests?

[Helium314]

To be honest, sometimes with narrow doors at store entrances it would be quite useful.

[mcliquid]

Cross-Links to discussions: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:highway%3Delevator#highway%3Delevator_with_bicycle%3A_Is_the_legal_permission_or_physical_transportability_meant%3F
https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/highway-elevator-with-bicycle-is-the-legal-permission-or-physical-transportability-meant/105015

[matkoniecz]

Do you need a wheelchair to answer wheelchair quests?

Sometimes yes, that is why I keep it disabled most of the time.

But many cases are more clear-cut due to either steps or constructions mandated by legal standards of wheelchair access - when it is built then it is typically clearly accessible.

[mcliquid]

Sometimes yes, that is why I keep it disabled most of the time.

The quest can be deactivated by default.

But many cases are more clear-cut due to either steps or constructions mandated by legal standards of wheelchair access - when it is built then it is typically clearly accessible.

Now we are talking about new buildings aren't we? What is the percentage of new commercial properties compared to existing older properties in terms of accessibility?
According to this argument a modern elevator, which is designed for more than 8 people, is also typically designed for the transport of a bicycle.

[mnalis]

According to this argument a modern elevator, which is designed for more than 8 people, is also typically designed for the transport of a bicycle.

Perhaps better quest might be then "How many people fit in this elevator?"

At least in Croatia, it is AFAICT always signed on a table in elevator (probably legal requirement so elevator is not overloaded; it usually specifies both max persons and total kg here. I don't have huge experience with elevators in other countries though, but the ones I recall also had such limits signed); and "max number of people" (as you note) is relatively good proxy for "will my bike fit physically?" (e.g. elevator for 8 persons will quite likely fit my 28" trekking bike horizontally, while one for 4 persons will likely require that I put it upright [and preclude e.g. cargo bike use], and one for 2 persons I'd best avoid).

And there is capacity=* (or capacity:persons=*) tag that we can already use there (unlike bicycle=* which we can't use to tag whether bicycle fits, as it means completely different thing).

[westnordost]

While capacity:persons may be useful, I think it is actually a proxy to maxweight rather than the available space in the elevator.

Here is a "pictures of elevators" blog

https://fahrstuhlbilder.blogspot.com/2020/09/aufzug_88.html

On the label, it says "carrying capacity 630kg or 8 persons". Sounds to me that the number of persons is just displayed as a convenience, using some key to translate kg to person.

And knowing the maxweight or an approximation of the maxweight of an elevator is less useful than knowing whether it is big enough (and allowed) to house a bicycle. On the other hand, as written before, directly asking for it really struggles with "🐿️ Easily answerable" because it will often not be signed.

[westnordost]

So I'll close the original issue (ask for whether bicycles may be transported in the elevator). For the alternative suggestion to ask for the elevators capacity in persons, create a new quest suggestion ticket. In any case, this may struggle with "🤷 Useful purpose" and with the "🕵️ Publicly accessible on foot" (because you need to go inside to see the sign that notes the capacity) quest guideline.