Removes stunprods and cablecuffs, makes spears uncraftable [DNM for now] #8761
Conversation
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The spear crafting I'm not sure about but cablecuffs and stunprods just encouraged valid-hunting behavioe and making them "just in case".
MrPerson
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muh fun |
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Not sure if this is a joke PR but i believe cablecuffs are too essential for non-murder antagging to just throw away. |
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if this is merged i'm leaving. 👎 |
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Make the cuffs a config. |
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I can't say I'm in support of straight up removal of items "because it causes valid hunting". The kind of hell we'll get from literally everyone (not just valid hunter) is not at all worth it. I'm really not even seeing anyone against these items anyway. |
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This means antags won't be able to easily get cuffs which will severely affect non-lethal play. I'm not entirely against making improvised cuffs less accessible but this is too much. 👎 Instead of removing the stunprod, make it not fit inside backpacks. This way people won't keep it on them at all time "just in case". |
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This is stupid. Assuming you are serious and it isnt a really late April Fools joke. If you intend to remove these then make sure you remove everything else that people keep on their person "just in case". Including weapons, spray bottles, healing items(when at full health), armor, flashes etc. |
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This is ltierally fucking retarded. This removes gameplay elements. Nothing is even wrong with stun prods. Stun gloves were op and replaced with stun prods |
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You're late for April Fools. |
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But then who was ling? |
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Nonononononononononononononononononono |
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If you do this revolutionaries and changelings and gang members will have LITERALLY no equipment to take down people. Did you even consider what would happen if you remove this? 👎 ❌ 💯 |
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I agree with this PR somewhat, stun prods at the moment are still a really easy "gg no re" solution. Either make them unconcealable like @WJohn suggested, or make them consume a LOT of power. 9k would make for a nice compromise, I think (they consume power while turned on, 10k wouldn't make sense). One use only with a high-capacity (aka the stuff that's always lying around) power cell, 2 with a super-capacity power cell, 3 with a hyper-capacity power cell. |
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Id say making them one-use with a high cap cell would work. No reason for them to have a bunch of charges. Hell, seeing as they are improvised weapons, maybe give them a chance of inflicting minor burn damage on the user? |
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I disagree with these proposed changes. Make them harder to produce if we're really concerned about "valid-hunting", right now these materials are relativity easy to come by even if toolstorage is cleaned out. Prehaps reduce the Spears damage down somewhat (It deals around 20ish Brute if wielded) and make the Stun Prod harder to produce. |
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I think at some point someone slightly buffed spears to deal higher damage, here are the damage values that I dug up.. Unwielded (One Hand Attack) = 10 Brute Damage |
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Don't worry I agree with you in that the spear is balanced as it stands, its a very obvious item that you cannot hide on your person. I can, however, see what MrPerson is getting at with the stun prod. If any change has to be made, why not do it akin to the spear in that you cannot put the stun prod in your backpack, make it a large item you have to either hold or drag with you. |
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Not being able to place a Stun Prod in your backpack would defeat the whole point of using one. Its a stealthy weapon. Nobody is going to use it otherwise. You might as well just remove it. |
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Cablecuffs are too essential for antagonists who don't have access to normal methods of restraining people. The spear is already very obvious and can't fit in backpacks. Most security teams at least keep an eye out on people with spears if not just straight-up confiscating them. I strongly disagree with stunprod removal. Stunprods are balanced out by their small amount of force as well as the fact that they drain their power cells extremely fast (a high-cap will only last four roughly 3-4 hits). In addition, Security almost always confiscates these and quite a few HoS players will go as far as to imprison people for even owning one. Removing the stunprod wouldn't actually do anything, as people could just break into Botany, steal a pest spray from the NutriMax, empty it, and fill it with water. That way you can have a longer stun that's smaller, free, and forces people to slow down in order to avoid it. Overall, 👎 |
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As in you keep it hidden in your backpack, then pull it out when close to your victim and give em a whack with it. |
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Just remove cablecuffs. We sort of agreed that THOSE were a huge source of problems, moreso than the actual initial CC. |
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cablecuffs reduce problems |
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Why is "validhunting" bad? If some guy is running around eswording everyone and he gets stun prodded, whats wrong with that? They're called "valid" for a reason. This is tg, where the clown can slip a nuke op and axe him to death, not bay where you get banned for robusting as the wrong job. |
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Coderbus is separate from the servers. This is an administrative issue, let us handle it. Either that, or make it a config option. |
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👎 no |
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Stupid, critting people is a far easier way of dealing with hostile people than trying to do stuns or cable cuffs, these things are in the game for the sake of mercy so civilians can take hostile people alive. |
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👎 |
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April Fools was a couple days ago. 👎 |
MrPerson
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This is really dumb. They are tools (not the spear, it's literally never an issue ever, seriously) that can be used by shitters. Stun prods are in severely limited supply - they need high cap power cells, there are like, 2? available in public spaces, otherwise you need to access science or engineering to get more. I seriously can't fathom the logic behind this - they're both used extensively for genuine reasons (like antags using them, or people using them on antags/shitters), just because they CAN in turn be used by shitters, why the hell would you remove something that's genuinely useful if not needed for game balance because of the lack of alternatives? This is going to be like when the stun nerf first happened, and cuffs took so long to apply to someone compared to stun duration, that people were just critting people instead. Only with this, they won't be able to cuff them AT ALL. What is wrong with a ghetto stun weapon that's MELEE RANGE. |
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Is this real? It sounds like functionality is being removed for all because some mean people use it badly. |
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For stunprods just do what we did. Just make their weight class bigger, removes the stealth element. |
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But then what purpose do stunprods serve? Yes, right now, the stuns they provide are needed, but frankly it shouldn't be necessary. Figuring out these problems is why I tagged this DNM for now. Specifically, I have so far:
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I don't see why nonlethal detainment is an issue. If the clown is breaking into my office and being a shitler, and security is not responding, and critting him will probably get me boinked, how else am I supposed to handle him? This is a common situation, not some once-in-a-lifetime occurence. |
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👎 Big thumbs down. If these are removed, then security literally has the means to walk over anyone any time of the day (which they debtably already do)---only now with zero counterplay unless you're a full out and out blatantly obvious traitor. Removal of the stunprod effectively means the only people with any access to stun weapons are security members and the bartender--heck, traitors now only have access to a single stun weapon that has a super long recharge time. I'll echo what people above are saying; when non-lethal detainment becomes difficult, lethal detainment will become the order of the day---as someone who's actively played on Goon---that's exactly what happens; there's no cablecuff or melee stun weapons there accessible to non-sec...so traitors that do get caught tend to just get beat to literal death since there is no other option to deal with them. |
if you wanted feedback on stunprods, well guess what we have a whole forum for |
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This really won't solve anything. People have hunted antags on /tg/station since it's existed, only then they did it with acid spray or tabling. I'm not the biggest fan of cablecuffs but it's entirely true that if you take them out then the people who are playing vigilantes now will just beat to death the people they would have otherwise arrested. |
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This needs a discussion with the headmins. This is both a code and policy issue. |
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It's really not. Lets go through them item by item. Spear: Does ANYONE genuinely think this item is an issue? It's a bulky item, that's shit in melee, and is reasonable as a ONE USE ranged weapon. If you feel this item is an issue, please elaborate. Cablecuffs: No way to restrain people without themas non sec, which ass fucks traitors and normal crew - vigilantees are more likely to just murder valid people anyway - that doesn't change anything. Stunprod: The only item among the three that is even worth discussion, but the fact is in terms of public access, the entire crew can only make a couple - otherwise you need access to science, engineering, or a few odd ones like eva etc. Either way though, I don't understand how you can argue that these should be removed, when we have stun batons and telescopic batons in the game. |
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I agree on the spear statement the cuffs and stunprod should be discussed though because the admins and headadmins would know very well how much they are used if at all. This PR is really a public statement by mrperson on wanting to deal with the stupid gimmick weapons there is. I dont like the stun prod only because you can hide it. Apart from that it works better than the gloves ever did at trying to balance. The cable cuffs should stay though that is why i am saying config because then it can be decided by the servers if they want it. But i would rather it stay. I personally dont like this PR but I dont think @MrPerson will close it. |
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@Jalleo If cablecuffs were removed I would have to tell people to just crit whoever breaks in or decides to be a pain. If they are really belligerent there is no easy way to deal with them without cablecuffs if security isn't around to help. |
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Calling this a server administration issue is kind of disingenuous. /tg/station has a history of solving issues of poor player behavior with code-based solutions, because otherwise it wouldn't get fixed at all. How many people have been banned for validhunting/vigilantism here? I can only think of a single example. (note that I still don't agree with this PR, I just felt the need to address that argument) |
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If the entire combat system is predicated on stunprods, that implies the combat system is shit and should be fixed. Cablecuffs are not a viable way to detain someone in 100% of circumstances |
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What would you prefer? Asking them nicely to not run away? Giving people an easily accessible way to restrain other players tends to lead to interesting situations. Yeah they are used by validhunters, but removing them sure as hell will not stop that kind of behavior. |
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@MrPerson What? of course they are viable, if you want to be non-lethal they are pretty much the only way to deal with someone unless you have access to actual handcuffs or which most of the time you don't. I mean sure you could use a welded locker but they are just problematic when you need to let him out. |
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No I mean not everyone has cables lying around their workplace |
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Yea but they are easily accessible. |
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Yeah- there are a half-dozen cable rolls in Art Storage and 10 in the Tool Storage vendor, plus another half-dozen or so lying around in Tool Storage. And those are just the publicly accessible ones. Engineering and Science both have cables out the ass. |
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Stunprods and cable cuffs are part of how our combat works right now, like Large maintainer opposition and headcoder dislike mean that this PR should
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The spear crafting I'm not sure about but cablecuffs and stunprods just encouraged valid-hunting behavior and making them "just in case".