AAA/Paratrooper issue in v3 #5834
Comments
panther2
added
Problem
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Arguably, extending the rulebooks, this bug is deeper for custom games, and means that, more generally, AA strikes (known as targeted strikes, as they do not necessarily target aircrafts) will fail to fire if infrastructures are alone (no matter how the territory is invaded, aside from the case the attacking units are all infrastructures too). Moreover, this problem could be extended, as affirming that infrastructures should get 1 free shot, before being captured, also in case they have regular positive defence value, instead or in addition to special AA strikes. For example: 1 infrastructure unit with a targeted (AA) strike against 1 land unit is currently captured without battle during Combat Move if alone, while, for consistency with how AA Gun works, I suppose it should get to fire, in the first combat round, getting captured only if it fails to kill all land units attacking the territory. Even more disputable is the fact that, currently, if infrastructures only attack infrastructures only, the defending infrastructures are captured by the attacking infrastructures, during Combat Move, also no matter if the defending infrastructures have AA strikes against the attacking infrastructures, but I tend to think the behaviours of attacking infrastructures are better discussed in another issue, limiting only to the case of defending infrastructures, in this one. In any case, I'm mainly letting you know that I don't think you can consider this matter merely regarding the case of land units paratrooped against infrastructures only units able to AA fire at aircrafts only, as TripleA allows customizing AA fire to target whatever (default being any air units in the game, of course). For a specific example of a map for which this matter may be very relevant beyond the specifics of the basic games, you can take "House of Habsburg 0.8" and look at the "Cannon" unit. The "Cannon" unit is an infrastructure that can attack and defend, normally (meaning normal attack and defence, not any AA shots). Currently, if you attack, with only 1 Pikemen, a territory with only 1 Cannon in it, what happens is that the Cannon is captured (actually, destroyed on capture) right in the Combat Move phase (in which the territory is taken, and this is another problem, as the territory should be actually taken during Conduct Combat, instead). Extrapolating the rulebook, what should happen, instead, is that the 1 Pikemen should make battle against the 1 Cannon, the Pikemen rolling nothing (because the Cannon is an infrastructure), then the Cannon (firing after the Pikemen, since it has normal defence, not AA) should roll 2 dice at 5. If any of the 2 dice hit, the Pikemen is removed, and the Cannon, as well as the territory, is not captured, the battle failing. If none of the 2 dice hit, the Pikemen proceeds to capture the Cannon and the territory (the Cannon being destroyed on capture, as per game specifics). |
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However, in WWII Classic, but not from Revised onwards, you capture infrastructures during Combat Move, if you blitz through that territory. So, in the above example I made, it may be correct to capture the alone Cannon if the game follows default (Classic) rules and I blitz the territory the Cannon is in. Side note, also the 3rd Edition of Classic (v1) has paratroopers, but this option is currently not available in TripleA. Still, somebody might want to indagate what would happen in Classic in the same scenario and, moreover, also what would happen if I both paratroop in a territory with only an AA Gun and, on the same phase, I blitz that territory too (since in Classic you can blitz territories with infrastructures in them). Another matter is that in TripleA factories and aa guns are infrastructures all the same, subjected indifferently to the same infrastructure related behaviours, as far as I know. @panther2 Can you confirm that in Classic you can blitz through both factories and aa guns, thus capturing the aa gun during the Combat Move phase? I'm saying this mostly with regard to custom games. |
@Cernelius |
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So, my suggestion, for addressing this issue, is relating it to this property: "Blitz Through Factories And AA Restricted" If this property is false, keep the current behaviours (infrastructures immediately captured at the start of the battle, before any AA fire, also in case the capturing unit is air transported, and even during Combat Move, if blitzing that territory). If this property is true, have defending infrastructure units able to fire (both AA and regular defence) and give support, then getting captured at end of the combat round, but only if any attackers survive, and such attackers are not only infrastructures or air units (or both) too. I'm thinking, for example, to the case of a custom game that it is exactly like Classic, except only that AA Guns can also target armours. In this case, an armour would be able to blitz a territory with an undefended AA Gun, taking it without combat. It would, henceforth, make no sense that, under this ruleset, the AA Gun gets to fire if the armour would move of only 1 into that territory, instead of also using its second movement, blitzing the territory (like going back to the territory it came from). This would be good also so that mapmakers can pick the behaviour they want (for example, if the mapmaker of House of Habsburg prefers keeping the current behaviour, it can make sure that infrastructures are blitzable, and they will be also defenceless in combat if alone). A last thing one might want to clarify is what happens with Classic 3rd Edition paratroopers, but this would be rather awkward, as TripleA doesn't actually feature Classic paratroopers (so, not sure what would be the point of considering a behaviour that is not actually part of TripleA, and I tend to think we can leave this matter apart, in this issue). @panther2 Do you agree that if I can blitz AA Gun (Classic only), it makes sense that I can also capture them before them firing (of course, this currently matters only for custom games)? |
That depends on how AA-fire is resolved in Classic (#4133 (comment)). |
I'm fairly certain the AA Gun will fire, since both units are entering the territory at the same time, thus the AA Gun is not yet captured. |
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Either ways, as long as custom games go, I believe only one of these two behaviours would be sensibly consistent: if I have a game that is Classic, except that the AA Gun fires at armour instead of at aircrafts, and we have a single Armour against a single AA Gun:
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I agree with that.
To me it would sound strange if a unit intended to fire against an armour would not be allowed to shoot against an armour just because it blitzes instead of doing a "one-step-combat-move". But maybe I misunterstand something in affected custom games. |
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Anyways, I want also to point out that this official behaviour of the AA Gun getting (possibly) captured after firing becomes substantially rounds inconsistent if (in custom games) you have AA Guns that fire at the start of each combat round (or for more than 1 round). This is because, in this case, an AA Gun alone would fire during the first combat round, while there is no way that you can have an AA Gun alone firing from the second combat round onwards, since if, during any combat rounds, the AA Gun remains alone, the battle will end before getting to the next combat round. So I think the best here may be just having a custom property, to decide if infrastructures alone can fire (both for AA fire and regular fire) before getting capture (thus also having a chance not getting captured, if killing all units that could do that), or not. The next thing to do would be to indagate if such a behaviour should be positive for Classic (the TripleA default) or not, thus determining whether such a property should be for allowing infrastructures alone firing or for disallowing it, by having them captured before the first combat round. Then, in case, set the relevant dependencies with respect to general properties like the "WW2V2" one. Similarly, it should be determined if an infrastructure I can capture by blitzing, but has an AA flyover shot against the blitzing unit, should get to fire and, in this case, if the blitzing should fail if all blitzing units are killed. I think this is the full set of tasks at hand. |
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@panther2 @Cernelius Do you know if this has always been an issue? Or was introduced in 1.9? I believe its always been an issue but wanted to double check. Knowing that helps narrow down the best way to fix it. |
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I tested the issue appears to be exactly the same in 1.8.0.9. But I want to make clear that I would find very inconsistent if, under Classic rules, I would have an infrastructure that can hit in defence a blitzing unit, before being captured, but can be captured by blitzing, instead. So, I think I would either keep the current behaviour if "Blitz Through Factories And AA Restricted" is false, or provide a specific property for deciding whether having infrastructure capture also before any fire. While this matter appears clear for v3, it should be indagated with v1 (the only one ruleset in which you can capture infrastructures by blitzing), with respect to these 2 items:
Moreover, similar to point 1, but the two being one and the same, for custom games, if I have an infrastructure that can AA hit, with fly over, a blitzing unit, what should that happen if that infrastructure is being blitzed? |
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Posted a request for rules clarifications in here: |
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Fixing this issue should also make the "gas" unit of "Domination 1914 No Man's Land" able to attack alone successfully (it shouldn't matter at all that it is an infrastructure in attack, because the step where it suicides is before the step where anything can be captured). It is really the same issue as the aaGun getting incorrectly captured before it can fire. On this regard, also for possibly keeping the current behaviour of the mentioned game, I suggest adding a property that, if true, have infrastructures alone being conquered before any combat rounds (this way, if preferred, anyone can add it true to "Domination 1914 No Man's Land"). Related note, non-blitzing infrastructures able to combat move should never capture any territories. This is another wrong behaviour, but having the same roots as what at this issue. CC. @panther2 |
How can the problem be recreated?
When the problem is fixed, what should have happened instead?
The attacking bomber transporting the infantry is subject to AAA-fire before it can drop the infantry. In case the AAA-fire hits, the bomber is lost together with its cargo.
Which Engine Version are you using?
1.9.0.0.13066
Expected behavior
The attacking bomber transporting the infantry is subject to AAA-fire before it can drop the infantry. In case the AAA-fire hits, the bomber is lost together with its cargo.
By the rules "... The infantry is dropped after any antiaircraft fire is resolved, so if the bomber is hit, the infantry it carries is also destroyed. ..."
As discussed and clarified in https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/1698/can-air-transport-be-removed-from-land-combat-other-paratrooper-qs
Zipped Save Game
v3paratest_AA.zip
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