Transports allowed to load and move in Combat phase then offload in Non-combat phase

[bacrossland]

In the A&A Europe and Pacific 1940 First, Second, and Global Edition rule book it states the following about transport units in the non-combat phase:

"Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved, offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase."

However, I'm able to load a transport in the Combat Move Phase then move and offload those same units in the Non-Combat Phase (see attached game).

bad-move.tsvg.zip

Solution: Enforce that any transport which loaded, moved, offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase can do nothing in the non-combat phase.

Affected Rules Variants:

• Europe/Pacific/Global 1940.I
• Europe/Pacific/Global 1940.II
• V6
• V5
• V4
• V3
• V2 LHTR

Edit: Removed unaffected ruleset. Uploaded better example game. Clarified steps of what is happening.

[Cernelius]

Whatever change is made, please keep the current behaviour optionally available for custom games. In 270BC Wars what described may be a legal move (currently supported by the program).

Please refer to the "270BC Wars" rulebook.

Also, beside custom games, don't forget to get this right for every rules-set. V1, V2 Basic and V2 LHTR are all different in this regard on a number of points. For example, in V2 Basic transports with cargo already on board which moved during Combat Move can offload the cargo during Non Combat Move, while this is not possible in V2 LHTR.

@bacrossland By the way, for the case which you have pointed out,

I'm able to move a transport in the combat move phase and load units then offload those same units in the non-combat phase

the issue at hand is irrelevant, because you should NOT have made those Combat Move movements in the first place (so it doesn't matter what the engine allows you to do in the subsequent Non Combat Move phase, as you are already playing an illegal game). Since the Combat Move phase is for making combat movements, you simply cannot load any units during it unless you are offloading them all into one or more enemy territories. The only legal situation in which you may load units during Combat Move and have any number of these units still on board during the subsequent Non Combat Move phase is if, for each of the transports having any number of them, you plotted to offload these units but failed to do so because you retreated from the naval battle which you needed to win in order to offload. However, in this case, what you are mentioning is irrelevant, as far as the TripleA engine goes, because the general rule (which I believe is the same from all basic rules sets) that you can do nothing at all with a transport which retreated should apply (so you should rather test if that is failing to apply, for transports which retreated from battles).

[Cernelius]

To be clear, in V2 Basic, every transport which moved or took part in a battle during the turn may either (not both) load or offload during Non Combat Move. This is possible neither in v1 nor in all basic games from V2 LHTR onwards. I think the current behaviour of the program is at least to some extent meant to support V2 Basic (which is the basis for a lot of other games, like World At War).

What I'm mostly saying is that:

1. You cannot just go ahead applying anything reported by @bacrossland at this issue to TripleA in general as TripleA has many rules sets, not only one: all rules sets which TripleA supports need to be researched before changing any rule.
2. Please keep supporting the current behaviour for custom games meant to follow the current program rules (adding a property for having the beaviour which is currently granted).

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I believe the matter is that the basic games have only offence 0 transpors, so the rules for them are taylored on the assumption that they are not active combat units. However, for example, in World At War, you may want to load 1 infantry onto 1 cruiser, send the cruiser in combat and offload the infantry into a friendly territory after combat (if the cruiser survived the combat without retreating). This is a reasonable sequence of movement which I believe the program currently supports, and I believe it should still support (for any custom games).

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Substantially, whatever change you make to the present behaviour I advise you make a property for having the present behaviour. This would allow every custom game to opt between the present and the new behaviour. Next, you need to research every rules set to determine which one of the two behaviours should better apply in every case and whether or not more different behaviours should be added.

[bacrossland]

In the A&A Europe and Pacific 1940 First, Second, and Global Edition rule book it states the following about sea units starting in a hostile sea zone:

"

• Remain in the sea zone and conduct combat,
• Leave the sea zone, load units if desired, and conduct combat elsewhere,
• Leave the sea zone, load units, and return to the same sea zone to conduct combat (you can’t load units while in a hostile sea zone), or
• Leave the sea zone and conduct no combat.
  "

As you can see, it is completely legal in these editions of the rules for a transport to leave a hostile sea zone in the combat move phase and pick up units in another location. If they don't offload the units in the combat phase, the units remain on the transport and are not offloaded in the non-combat phase.

The same rule of not being able to offload units in the non-combat phase would apply if they were in a friendly sea zone and picked up units in the combat move phase.

[Cernelius]

In the A&A Europe and Pacific 1940 First, Second, and Global Edition rule book it states the following about sea units starting in a hostile sea zone:

I think it would be better if you directly refer to specific TripleA games as I don't recall to have ever seen a TripleA game called as "A&A". Nevertheless, I can assume that you are referring to the intended rules of the most recent TripleA basic games (I guess you are talking about what I see is called "World War II Europe 1940 2nd Edition" which I've just downloaded right now and never played.).

And, as I said, even though this is not directed to you, TripleA supports MANY games, so I think that noone can really propose any change to anything unless it is believed that this change must or may apply to all TripleA games. Still, if the matter would be correct for one or more but not all TripleA games, one would need to start thinking about how to change TripleA so that only the games which need the change are changed.

This would not be a problem if TripleA would support only the games which you have in mind, of course.

As I said, I can tell you that TripleA currently supports my "270BC Wars" game and this change would be problematic for it because then you would not be any longer able to load 1 legionary on 1 quinquereme during the Commit Units phase, send the quinquereme to fight and (as long as the quinquereme survives and didn't retreat) offload the legionary into a friendly territory during the Reposition Units phase. So, whereas the change you are proposing may make some games closer to how they are intended to work, I can safely at least say it will make my "270BC Wars" game less close to how it is supposed to work.

• Remain in the sea zone and conduct combat,
• Leave the sea zone, load units if desired, and conduct combat elsewhere,
• Leave the sea zone, load units, and return to the same sea zone to conduct combat (you can’t load units while in a hostile sea zone), or
• Leave the sea zone and conduct no combat.
  "

As you can see, it is completely legal in these editions of the rules for a transport to leave a hostile sea zone in the combat move phase and pick up units in another location. If they don't offload the units in the combat phase, the units remain on the transport and are not offloaded in the non-combat phase.

I instead think it is completely illegal to do so (loading units during the Combat Move phase to keep them on board) because you are moving (loading) units without sending them in combat. However, I'm not the creator of any TripleA basic games, so this is merely my undestanding against your understanding, so either of you and me, if not both, has to be wrong (as the only thing we can be sure is that we cannot be both right). This matter is quite unclear, so I would not be surprised to be wrong, even though I still tend to think that I'm right and you are wrong (but maybe the opposite is true).

The same rule of not being able to offload units in the non-combat phase would apply if they were in a friendly sea zone and picked up units in the combat move phase.

Again, no: it would not possibly apply "if they were in a friendly sea zone and picked up units in the combat move phase" because you are not allowed to load anything during Combat Move unless you are going to offload it into an enemy territory during the same phase or the subsequent Conduct Combat phase, so (as I said) the only way for those units to be still on board during the subsequent Non-Combat Move phase is that you tried to offload them but retreated from the sea battle (in which case I believe TripleA correctly makes you unable to offload the units).

[bacrossland]

Updated original post with affected rules variants based on listed rules variants in this doc: https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/blob/master/docs/development/reference/game-rule-sets.md

[bacrossland]

@Cernelius I'm not saying either of us is wrong or right because we might very well both be correct depending on the rules variant we are discussing. I've updated my original post to focus on those rules variants. The fact that the software doesn't enforce a rule to stop an illegal move is a bug. In most of the games I play, players constantly make all their combat and non-combat moves during the combat move phase. It drives me nuts but since the software doesn't stop them, there is no way to enforce the rule accept by tell them to not do that.

[beelee1]

yea rules compliant for the main games is desirable. The option to not have that forced on all games is important as well.

[Cernelius]

Solution: Enforce that any transport which loaded, moved, offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase can do nothing in the non-combat phase.

Affected Rules Variants:

• Europe/Pacific/Global 1940.I
• Europe/Pacific/Global 1940.II
• V6
• V5
• V4
• V3
• V2 LHTR
• V2 Basic

I'm actually ALMOST sure that V2 Basic doesn't have this rule, whereas V1 does.

And, as I said, I believe this rule never acctually applies to anything you loaded on the same turn because you can load anything during Combat Move only if you either offload it all on the same phase or plot to offload it all in the subsequent Conduct Combat phase and TripleA doesn't allow for calling off landings of non-retreated ships.

The option to not have that forced on all games is important as well.

Certainly so because the transports of all basic games are offenceless, so the rules for them are ill-suited to offenceful transports, which are common or even ubiquitous to many TripleA games.

If this rule is ever enforced, a property not to have it should be made available to map-makers.

[bacrossland]

@Cernelius I checked the V2 rule book last night before posting. The wording from my post is in that rule book under the non-combat move phase. It's under Sea Units on page 21.

https://www.axisandallies.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Axis-Allies-Revised.pdf

Edit: This is incorrect as I later learned. I should have double checked the rulebook and not relied on what I thought I saw late at night. Exact wording did not match.

[Cernelius]

@Cernelius I checked the V2 rule book last night before posting. The wording from my post is in that rule book under the non-combat move phase.

I shall assume you are saying that the following statement of yours is valid for V2 Basic too.

Any transport which loaded, moved, offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase can do nothing in the non-combat phase.

I'm as sure as I can be that you are misunderstanding the intended V2 Basic rules: when one says "X can do A and B or C unless it did D", that does not logically imply that "X can do neither B nor C if it did D" (which is what I understand you understand). It, instead, merely implies that "X cannot do all of A and B or C if it did D" (so it doesn't say anything whether or not you can do only A or only B or only C if you did D: just that you cannot do both A and B and you cannot do both A and C and you cannot do all A, B and C if you did D).

Meaning that my understanding is that, under the V2 Basic intended rules, a transport that moved during Combat Move (possibly having one or more units on board) can either offload any number of already loaded units or load one or more units during the subsequent Non Combat Move phase (as long as it didn't retreat). Moreover, the same transport can even offload for a second time during the same turn, offloading one unit during Combat Move and an other unit during Non Combat Move (as long as both units move into the same territory).

So, I believe you are wrong on this intepretation and, again, I'm not the author of any of these games, so what I say holds no official value (so it could be that I'm wrong and you are right or we are both wrong).

---

Conversely, I wonder why you are excluding V1 from your list, instead.

---

Generally speaking, one should not use rule-books as references. Rule-books, like anything man-made, are potentially flawed and are liable of different interpretations. Only the original author of a game can say what is right and what is wrong. Meaning you need to get back to him or her or to someone entitled by him or her to give official answers.

For example, I can do that for "270BC Wars" because I made that game.

[bacrossland]

@Cernelius you're assumption is incorrect. I'm talking directly about the section of the rulebook that I quoted and linked the rules to in the original and subsequent posts.

"Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they loaded, moved, offloaded, or were involved in combat during the Combat Move or Conduct Combat phase."

You are correct, that exact language is not in the V2 Basic rulebook, I have removed that from my list. The V2 Basic rule says: "Transports can move to friendly coastal territories and load or offload cargo, unless they moved during the combat move phase."

I have attached an better example game to my original post. Turn 1 the Germans load a transport in the Combat Move phase then in the Non-Combat Phase move the transport and unload it into Norway.

Generally speaking, one should not use rule-books as references.

Not sure where you got that idea since this entire software is designed to support rulesets based on the published rulebooks. There is an entire list of the game rulesets and the rulebooks for them right here in the docs folder: https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/blob/master/docs/development/reference/game-rule-sets.md

Conversely, I wonder why you are excluding V1 from your list, instead.

I'm excluding V1 from my list because one version of it is unsupported in the software, one has no rulebook linked, and the one that does have a rulebook linked does not contain that wording in it.

[Cernelius]

As I said, a rule-book is a bunch of letters and maybe images. It may be interpreted one way or an other and it may be badly written or just wrong (using "Errata" and such is merely an improvement, not a solution). Therefore,

Only the original author of a game can say what is right and what is wrong. Meaning you need to get back to him or her or to someone entitled by him or her to give official answers.

Using a rule-book is merely a weak alternative which may be reasonable as long as it appears that the matter is very clear and it is still taking chances. Even if everyone understands something, it may be still that the author meant to say something else. On this basis, you can have as many "TripleA" games as all the possible combinations of the personal interpretations of the rules.

[Cernelius]

Taking a look at your save-game, the only truly bad move I can see is you having moved 2 infantry from Germany to 114 Sea Zone during Combat Move. This is an illegal move because the infantries moved during Combat Move without being sent in a combat situation.

I think it is irrelevant what the program lets you do therafter because that is starting from an illegal situation.

Nevertheless, I confirm that also having moved the transport from 114 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone and thereupon having moved the 2 infantry from 113 Sea Zone to Norway during Non Combat Move are illegal moves (I share your belief that, since V2 LHTR, a transport which loaded during Combat Move cannot move and cannot offload anything during Non Combat Move.).

However, you cannot exclude that, in the moment a game-maker says something like "a transport which loaded during Combat Move cannot move and cannot offload anything during Non Combat Move", he or she had in mind that the fact that the transport loaded during Combat Move meant that it also made one or more (combat related) other things.

The conclusion is that I agree that the savegame you provided displays an illegal behaviour (and actually all three actions are illegal). However, if I understand correctly that the fix that you are suggesting is that the "2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 114 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone" action should have not been offered to the user by the program, I would rather say that the foremost fix should be that the program should not have allowed the user to end the "Combat Move" phase unless either unmaking the "2 infantry moved from Germany to 114 Sea Zone" action or, if possible, making one or more other actions making that action legal. If the program would not have allowed the first illegal action, you would not have been in the condition to make the next ones.

And let me restate that, as far as I understand the rules, the rule that "a transport which loaded during Combat Move cannot move and cannot offload anything during Non Combat Move"

never acctually applies to anything you loaded on the same turn because you can load anything during Combat Move only if you either offload it all on the same phase or plot to offload it all in the subsequent Conduct Combat phase and TripleA doesn't allow for calling off landings of non-retreated ships.

---

The conclusion is that I confirm the correctness of your report under the reminder that such situation has been obtained by preemptively creating an other illegal situation (so that would be a report too) and under the warning not to implement any such change to TripleA generally because rules were different before V2 LHTR and under the suggestion to allow the current program behaviour to be had (likely by adding an opt-out boolean property which I may add to my "270BC Wars" game).

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[Cernelius]

I've just re-read this entire issue, and I see that, at my first post, I wrote

The only legal situation in which you may load units during Combat Move and have any number of these units still on board during the subsequent Non Combat Move phase is if, for each of the transports having any number of them, you plotted to offload these units but failed to do so because you retreated from the naval battle which you needed to win in order to offload. However, in this case, what you are mentioning is irrelevant, as far as the TripleA engine goes, because the general rule (which I believe is the same from all basic rules sets) that you can do nothing at all with a transport which retreated should apply (so you should rather test if that is failing to apply, for transports which retreated from battles).

whereas, at my fourth post, I wrote

And, as I said, I believe this rule never acctually applies to anything you loaded on the same turn because you can load anything during Combat Move only if you either offload it all on the same phase or plot to offload it all in the subsequent Conduct Combat phase and TripleA doesn't allow for calling off landings of non-retreated ships.

As per what I said at my fourth post, I correct my first post by saying that I believe there are only two (not one) legal situations in which you may load units during Combat Move and have any number of these units still on board during the subsequent Non-Combat Move phase.
One is what I said (and just quoted from my first post at this issue).
The other one is that you called off the landing of the units (which you can do only if you sent the ships in combat and offensively won the sea battle), but calling off landings is meant to be possible only in the intended non-LHTR V2 rules-set and the original (non-1940) Europe and Pacific, and it is actually completely non-supported by TripleA as far as I know (meaning that in the mentioned rules-sets you should be able to call off landings, but TripleA incorrectly never allows you to do so). However, this second case is currently irrelevant because it can never actually happen in TripleA because the program fails to support any rules for calling off landings (after offensively successful sea battles).

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I confirm that everything else I said stands (and also what I quoted here stands beside the fact that this is one of only two situations, not the only one).

I also still hope that the current (wrong) behaviour may be optionally kept available to game-makers (by having a property for allowing loading units in Combat Move and offloading them in Non-Combat Move as long as the ship didn't retreat, just as the program allows you to do now).

Moreover, while confirming that since V2 LHTR all most recent rules-sets have the general rule that a transport that did anything during Combat Move can do nothing during Non-Combat Move, I want to point out that I tend to believe this holds true for v1 too. If so, the exception would be only V2 non-LHTR, as well as Europe non-1940 and Pacific non-1940. Thus, this needs to be investigated, and, if true, V1 should be added to the list of rules-sets which is currently present at the first post of this issue. This is a particularly critical matter because V1 is generally (with rare exceptions which are arguably "bugs") how TripleA behaves as default (all properties being set as false).

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To summarize the specific matter, in the save-game provided at the first post, what is happening is that we have the following sequence of actions:

1. 2 infantry moved from Germany to 114 Sea Zone.
2. 2 infantry and 1 transport moved from 114 Sea Zone to 113 Sea Zone.
3. 2 infantry moved from 113 Sea Zone to Norway.

What I understand @bacrossland is saying is that the transport (which loaded the 2 infantry units) should have been unable to move and unable to offload during "Non Combat Move". I'm not sure if he actually believes that he should be allowed to make the first action as long as the second and the third ones are not made.

What I'm saying, instead, is that the first action is illegal (because the infantry units are being moved during Combat Move without sending them in combat), so I see little point in discussing the legality of subsequent actions which rely on an illegal action: even if the program would make impossible to perform the second and the third actions, the first action would be still illegal.