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Variable startup resources #1862
Comments
(by hjd) I'm a bit unsure about setting the resource level for AI players though, as taking on an aggressive AI who had barely had resources to build up something would be easier than one who had. Then again I don't know, perhaps someone has an idea how to handle this. |
(by nha) |
(by sirver) $ cp tribes/barbarians/scripting/sc00_headquarters_medium.lua tribes/barbarians/scripting/sc02_headquarters_low.lua the hardest thing is to come up with good starting wares. Some are already terrible low (for example the stuff to get marble for empire is quite to the point where you cannot reduce this any further while you have a great many builders and geologists in all tribes). Feel free to provide new starting conditions, I'd love to add them. |
(by fuchur77) |
(by hjd)
If you want to test it just place the attached file in tribes/barbarians/scripting. I will be impressed if anyone actually get anywhere with this against normal enemies. I doubt this should be included in the game, but may be an example of how easy it is to get started just by copying and modifying one of the existing starting conditions. |
(by wolfsteinmetz) I have three comments that came from the experience:
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(by wolfsteinmetz) |
(by hjd) First of all, Astuur: thanks for your kind words. :) I'm not sure how good it would fit for newcomers, I rather see it as something experienced/veteran players can use to sharpen their skills. Throwing it at people who have only completed a couple of tutorials will probably be too tough. It is interesting though, because it forces you to reconsider your build order and get a better grasp on how things are connected. I even picked up a few details I had missed earlier doing this. That said I would be against including them in the game at this stage. The AI will clearly have trouble playing with the starting conditions, and playing Hardcore against AI starting with normal HQ is probably impossible. (Though please prove me wrong, and attach a replay :p) I don't mind it if games are hard, but it should be fair and the player should have an actual chance. Presently, I doubt Hardcore is fair compared to the other starting conditions. Somewhat off-topic, but I actually wonder how this could be used to tweak the AI to make it better at dealing with limited resources. From time to time it keeps building military buildings which are never finished which indicates some problems with supply of certain wares or priorities. Though I guess the AI coders know this better than me (any comments?). Might be worth a consideration. As for basing a tutorial on it, I don't know. In the current state it might be a bit too strict and limiting (if you mess up the intended build order, you are basically stuck). So it should probably be tweaked to be a bit less unforgiving. Secondly, I mainly prefer tutorials where the relevant buildings are made available as they are needed. Though I'll be open to any ideas people have. Due to popular demand, I have now created similar starting conditions for Empire and Atlanteans. Initial comments from testing: Empire needs a LOT of marble. I mainly tested on the map Impact since the HQ is placed close to both coal and iron, and I exhausted both of the two nearest stone quarries and was into the third by the time I got a working toolsmithy. I think the Atlanteans take even more time, as I was overrun and my HQ destroyed after I had produced a couple of new tools. I have pushed the Hardcore starting conditions to a branch I will attach to this bug. The branch is owned by widelands-dev if anyone wants to do something with it or develop it further. Should be easy enough to browse the code and get the files from tribes/[tribename]/scripting/sc02_hardcore.lua . Those who compile Widelands themselves can merge the changes via bzr merge. I mainly created the first starting condition to demonstrate how easy it is. Like SirVer says in comment #3, just copy one of the existing starting conditions, rename it and start editing. Some of the lines, I'm not exactly sure what they do, but the important thing is the lists of workers and wares. They should be pretty easy to edit and get started, even for non-programmers. As for the comments in #6:
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(by wolfsteinmetz) HJD>I'm not sure how good it would fit for newcomers, I rather see it as something experienced/veteran players can use to sharpen their skills. Throwing it at people who have only completed a couple of tutorials will probably be too tough. As I said, after the completion of a tutorial, as a final test from the mentor. HJD>The AI will clearly have trouble playing with the starting conditions, and playing Hardcore against AI starting with normal HQ is probably impossible. (Though please prove me wrong, and attach a replay :p) I tried with "crater", No chance. You will need a large map that gives you enough time to catch up. HJD:> ... but I actually wonder how this could be used to tweak the AI to make it better at dealing with limited resources. From time to time it keeps building military buildings which are never finished which indicates some problems with supply of certain wares or priorities. I have no knowlege in this field (as you surely know :) ) HJD:>As for basing a tutorial on it, I don't know. In the current state it might be a bit too strict and limiting (if you mess up the intended build order, you are basically stuck). So it should probably be tweaked to be a bit less unforgiving. Secondly, I mainly prefer tutorials where the relevant buildings are made available as they are needed. Though I'll be open to any ideas people have. Not knowing LUA, I could imagine that you could catch a candidate's mistakes in the build order and throw in some HJD:>Due to popular demand, I have now created similar starting conditions for Empire and Atlanteans. Initial comments from testing: Empire needs a LOT of marble. Many thanks! HJD:> As for the comments in #6: (enforce the production of specified tools)
I cannot see, how. You cannot set anythig to zero there, to enforce some other thing to be made. And with a condition of having "nothing" in stock (like with HardCore) the toolsmith will follow his sequence as discribed in the conf file. HJD> (time penalty when a ware to be produced is not needed by the economy) I'll have close look myself and try to test that. HJD> (worker and tool in construction site and production site's window background) done! Now ... where are these imperial and atlantean Hardcore starting conditions.... (runs off to find them) |
(by wolfsteinmetz) |
(by wolfsteinmetz) |
(by wolfsteinmetz) |
(by hjd) **
I doubt it as the AI will be so far ahead with 40 soldiers more than you plus enough resources to establish properly from the get go. But hey, I'm not going to stop you. :)
It is possible, but won't you soon end up with press the right button to win (no, not that one!)? I'm not sure that's the best experience when playing a game. Compared to adding new buildings as you progress: if you have built a lumberjack and all that is available is a forester and a quarry it is much harder to do something wrong. Oh and I just assumed you could set the amount to zero in configure economy without actually checking. Though I guess having one of each ware is reasonable, especially for starting conditions where you likely have fulfilled that requirement for most wares already. |
(by wolfsteinmetz) HJD:>I doubt it as the AI will be so far ahead with 40 soldiers more than you plus enough resources to establish properly from the get go. But hey, I'm not going to stop you. :) I am already far ahead of the AI on a random map, and it will not dare to attack. But that is irregular, because the AI has problems obviously (although running at standard starting conditions) to establish an economy on this map/ starting location. At some point, we may start a discussion about Widelands users and what we know (or believe to know) about them. Yes, there are those, who need a success every 5 minutes to keep going, and those tend to ask questions in the forum, that do reflect a very superficial effort to grasp the game mechanics. But given the read/write relation in the forums, I would think that the majority does not need as much guidance as we are offering. |
(by sirver) |
(by sirver) |
(by janitor) |
(by sirver) |
(by janitor) |
(by sirver) |
(by wl-zocker) [*] I think some scenarios use the headquarters and its wares/workers as starting conditions, so if we change this, we should keep this in mind. |
(by fuchur77) Maybe just for fun there could be a starting condition "omnipotent" with a stock of all ressources of 10.000. Then one could run over a map, explore it quickly and flatten every enemy. If one likes to do so... |
(by wl-zocker)
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(by fuchur77) |
(by fuchur77) |
(by hjd)
I think more starting conditions would be a good idea, but we should discuss what we want to do to avoid getting too many which are more or less the same. The existing HQ and citadel village are rather distinct and different from each other, so new types should offer noticably different ways of starting out. I still think hardcore would be a nice addition, but we need to get the AI into shape to deal with it as well (and perhaps reduce a bit of the strictness, make it slightly rounder in the corners). Actually hardcore would need some updates due to new building and worker names, but I wonder how the recently patched AI works with it now. |
(by janitor) |
(by stdh) |
(by gunchleoc) |
as the Hardcore settings are lying around for ages now we should either implem,ent them togehter with a hint that they are not suitable for AI (and never will be) or just close this bug. I'd vote for including a them. maybe we could name this poor_village or poor_hamlet |
+1 for hamlet I have merged master. |
wrong branch was linked |
This is not a bug but a feature suggestion.
In Settlers 1 it was possible to adjust the amount of wares available in the headquarter before starting a new game. I think this can be interesting for both new players and experienced ones. The newbies can make it a bit more easy for themselves while learning the game. The experienced player can choose to play with low ressources against a computer player with a high ressource level. I'd suggest only some fixed levels for wares and maybe for workers. Low, medium and high for example.
Imported from Launchpad using lp2gh.
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