/
19060920_reps_2_34.xml
7748 lines (7748 loc) · 400 KB
/
19060920_reps_2_34.xml
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53
54
55
56
57
58
59
60
61
62
63
64
65
66
67
68
69
70
71
72
73
74
75
76
77
78
79
80
81
82
83
84
85
86
87
88
89
90
91
92
93
94
95
96
97
98
99
100
101
102
103
104
105
106
107
108
109
110
111
112
113
114
115
116
117
118
119
120
121
122
123
124
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
133
134
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
142
143
144
145
146
147
148
149
150
151
152
153
154
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162
163
164
165
166
167
168
169
170
171
172
173
174
175
176
177
178
179
180
181
182
183
184
185
186
187
188
189
190
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
204
205
206
207
208
209
210
211
212
213
214
215
216
217
218
219
220
221
222
223
224
225
226
227
228
229
230
231
232
233
234
235
236
237
238
239
240
241
242
243
244
245
246
247
248
249
250
251
252
253
254
255
256
257
258
259
260
261
262
263
264
265
266
267
268
269
270
271
272
273
274
275
276
277
278
279
280
281
282
283
284
285
286
287
288
289
290
291
292
293
294
295
296
297
298
299
300
301
302
303
304
305
306
307
308
309
310
311
312
313
314
315
316
317
318
319
320
321
322
323
324
325
326
327
328
329
330
331
332
333
334
335
336
337
338
339
340
341
342
343
344
345
346
347
348
349
350
351
352
353
354
355
356
357
358
359
360
361
362
363
364
365
366
367
368
369
370
371
372
373
374
375
376
377
378
379
380
381
382
383
384
385
386
387
388
389
390
391
392
393
394
395
396
397
398
399
400
401
402
403
404
405
406
407
408
409
410
411
412
413
414
415
416
417
418
419
420
421
422
423
424
425
426
427
428
429
430
431
432
433
434
435
436
437
438
439
440
441
442
443
444
445
446
447
448
449
450
451
452
453
454
455
456
457
458
459
460
461
462
463
464
465
466
467
468
469
470
471
472
473
474
475
476
477
478
479
480
481
482
483
484
485
486
487
488
489
490
491
492
493
494
495
496
497
498
499
500
501
502
503
504
505
506
507
508
509
510
511
512
513
514
515
516
517
518
519
520
521
522
523
524
525
526
527
528
529
530
531
532
533
534
535
536
537
538
539
540
541
542
543
544
545
546
547
548
549
550
551
552
553
554
555
556
557
558
559
560
561
562
563
564
565
566
567
568
569
570
571
572
573
574
575
576
577
578
579
580
581
582
583
584
585
586
587
588
589
590
591
592
593
594
595
596
597
598
599
600
601
602
603
604
605
606
607
608
609
610
611
612
613
614
615
616
617
618
619
620
621
622
623
624
625
626
627
628
629
630
631
632
633
634
635
636
637
638
639
640
641
642
643
644
645
646
647
648
649
650
651
652
653
654
655
656
657
658
659
660
661
662
663
664
665
666
667
668
669
670
671
672
673
674
675
676
677
678
679
680
681
682
683
684
685
686
687
688
689
690
691
692
693
694
695
696
697
698
699
700
701
702
703
704
705
706
707
708
709
710
711
712
713
714
715
716
717
718
719
720
721
722
723
724
725
726
727
728
729
730
731
732
733
734
735
736
737
738
739
740
741
742
743
744
745
746
747
748
749
750
751
752
753
754
755
756
757
758
759
760
761
762
763
764
765
766
767
768
769
770
771
772
773
774
775
776
777
778
779
780
781
782
783
784
785
786
787
788
789
790
791
792
793
794
795
796
797
798
799
800
801
802
803
804
805
806
807
808
809
810
811
812
813
814
815
816
817
818
819
820
821
822
823
824
825
826
827
828
829
830
831
832
833
834
835
836
837
838
839
840
841
842
843
844
845
846
847
848
849
850
851
852
853
854
855
856
857
858
859
860
861
862
863
864
865
866
867
868
869
870
871
872
873
874
875
876
877
878
879
880
881
882
883
884
885
886
887
888
889
890
891
892
893
894
895
896
897
898
899
900
901
902
903
904
905
906
907
908
909
910
911
912
913
914
915
916
917
918
919
920
921
922
923
924
925
926
927
928
929
930
931
932
933
934
935
936
937
938
939
940
941
942
943
944
945
946
947
948
949
950
951
952
953
954
955
956
957
958
959
960
961
962
963
964
965
966
967
968
969
970
971
972
973
974
975
976
977
978
979
980
981
982
983
984
985
986
987
988
989
990
991
992
993
994
995
996
997
998
999
1000
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<hansard xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd" version="2.1" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
<session.header>
<date>1906-09-20</date>
<parliament.no>2</parliament.no>
<session.no>3</session.no>
<period.no>0</period.no>
<chamber>REPS</chamber>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
<proof>0</proof>
</session.header>
<chamber.xscript>
<para>House ofRepresentatives. </para>
<business.start>
<day.start>1906-09-20</day.start>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Speaker</inline>took the chair at 2.30 p.m. and read prayers. </para>
</business.start>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>LANDS ACQUISITION BILL</title>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
<type>bill</type>
</debateinfo>
<para>Petition. </para>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. GLYNN</inline>presented a petition from 8,366 inhabitants of the city and suburbs of Adelaide, praying the House to exempt the park lands and squares of that city from the provisions of the Lands Acquisition Bill. </para>
<para>Petition received and read. </para>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JR7</name.id>
<electorate>BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">BONYTHON, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir LANGDON BONYTHON</name>
</talker>
<para>- I wish to know from the Minister of Home Affairs whether the Government have decided to amend the Lands Acquisition Bill to meet the objection of the petitioners? </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFK</name.id>
<electorate>DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND</electorate>
<party>Protectionist</party>
<role>Minister for Home Affairs</role>
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">GROOM, Littleton</name>
<name role="display">Mr GROOM</name>
</talker>
<para>- I have already intimated that there is no justification for. the anxiety expressed in the petition, because the Property for Public Purposes Acquisition Act does not confer upon the Commonwealth any power beyond that given in the Constitution, and the Bill will not do so; butto put the matter beyond doubt, I yesterday had prepared an amendment which I think will give satisfaction. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>TELEPHONE ADMINISTRATION</title>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYJ</name.id>
<electorate>BENDIGO, VICTORIA</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">QUICK, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir JOHN QUICK</name>
</talker>
<para>-Is the PostmasterGeneral yet in a position to inform the House what action is being taken to improve the telephonic appliancesin use in Bendigo and other country centres? </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JX7</name.id>
<electorate>EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>Protectionist</party>
<role>Postmaster-General</role>
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CHAPMAN, Austin</name>
<name role="display">Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN</name>
</talker>
<para>- The action promised some little time back, in reply to a question by the honorable and learned member, is being taken, tenders having been invited for the supply of new instruments. These will be substituted as quickly as that can be managed, for the old instruments which are now complained of. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L1D</name.id>
<electorate>ROBERTSON, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">WILLIS, Henry</name>
<name role="display">Mr HENRY WILLIS</name>
</talker>
<para>- I notice that the extension of the 3d.-in-the-slot bureaux has been a great success in New South Wales. When will the Minister make the charge1d., in fulfilment of a promise given some weeks ago? </para>
</talk.start>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JX7</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CHAPMAN, Austin</name>
<name role="display">Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN</name>
</talker>
<para>- We are now arranging for the alteration of the instruments, and at the earliest opportunity I shall introduce1d.-in-the-slot machines and other improvements. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L0K</name.id>
<electorate>LAANECOORIE, VICTORIA</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">SALMON, Charles</name>
<name role="display">Mr SALMON</name>
</talker>
<para>- Will the PostmasterGeneral sec that in substituting Ericcson for Adet-Berthon instruments, preference is given to those' who have for many years been subscribers to exchanges, and have frequently to speak over long-distance lines? At the present time the improved instruments are being given only to new subscribers. </para>
</talk.start>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JX7</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CHAPMAN, Austin</name>
<name role="display">Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN</name>
</talker>
<para>- In the sub, stitution now taking place, preference is being given to subscribers who have to speak over long-distance lines, because the old instruments are very inconvenient for such conversations. I hope that before long we shall have replaced with new instruments all the old ones in Australia. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>ESTIMATES</title>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K99</name.id>
<electorate>LANG, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">JOHNSON, Elliot</name>
<name role="display">Mr JOHNSON</name>
</talker>
<para>- Can the Prime Minister say definitely when the consideration of the Estimates will be proceeded with? </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>009MD</name.id>
<electorate>BALLAARAT, VICTORIA</electorate>
<party>Protectionist</party>
<role>Minister for External Affairs</role>
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">DEAKIN, Alfred</name>
<name role="display">Mr DEAKIN</name>
</talker>
<para>- Next week. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>PAPERS</title>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
<type>papers</type>
</debateinfo>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Sir JOHN</inline>FORREST laid upon the table the following papers : - </para>
<quote>
<para>Statement showing the saving which could be made up to1952, assuming that the Commonwealth could float loans at¼ per cent. less interest than that charged to the States, and that this¼ per cent. were accumulated at 3 per cent. per annum compound interest. </para>
<para>Transfers of amounts approved by the GovernorGeneral in Council under the Audit Act, financial year 1905-6 (dated 1 8th September). </para>
</quote>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>PUBLIC SERVANTS' TRAVELLING ALLOWANCES: WESTERN AUSTRALIA</title>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5031</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JX7</name.id>
<electorate />
<party>Protectionist</party>
<role />
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CHAPMAN, Austin</name>
<name role="display">Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN</name>
</talker>
<para>- Yesterday the honorable member for Kalgoorlie asked these questions : - </para>
</talk.start>
<list type="loweralpha-dotted">
<item label="x.">
<para>Is it a fact that a higher travelling allowance is paid to officers of the Commonwealth when travelling in Western Australia than when travelling in the other States? </para>
</item>
<item label="a.">
<para>Is it a fact that an additional 25 per cent. over Perth rates is paid to such officers when they are travelling on the gold-fields? </para>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="3.">
<para>If the reply to the foregoing questions is in the affirmative, will he make some corresponding provision for officers who are employed permanently in those localities - where living is so costly ? </para>
</item>
</list>
</item>
</list>
<para>The Commonwealth Public Service Commissioner has furnished the following information : - </para>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>Yes. a. Yes. </para>
</item>
<item label="3.">
<para>Officers permanently employed in these localities receive district allowances to compensate them for the higher cost of living. Travelling allowances are fixed on a different scale to meet incidental expenditure for short periods, which is not incurred by officers permanently stationed in remote localities. </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5032</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>TUMBY BAY POST OFFICE. TAILEM BEND-PINNAROO MAIL SERVICE</title>
<page.no>5032</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5032</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JR7</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">BONYTHON, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir LANGDON BONYTHON</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Postmaster-General, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>Is he aware that the post and telegraph office at Tumby Bay, South Australia, by reason of activity in the newly opened farming lands in the district, returns about£500 per annum to the Commonwealth, although its cost, inclusive of salaries and all charges, is only £100 per annum? </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>If so, does he not consider that the Department can afford to pay more for the mail service between Tailem Bend and Pinnaroo than the exact amount of the revenue derived, seeing that the country is newly settled, and that the farmers who have isolated themselves from the regular mail routes, are engaged in clearing and cultivating land which must eventually prove profitable to the State and the Commonwealth?' </para>
</item>
<item label="3.">
<para>Will he make such arrangements with the StateRailway Department as will establish the present temporary mail service to Pinnaroo and the intervening stations on a permanent basis, even although the cost may be greater than the immediate revenue returns? </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5032</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JX7</name.id>
<electorate />
<party>Protectionist</party>
<role />
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CHAPMAN, Austin</name>
<name role="display">Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN</name>
</talker>
<para>- The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - </para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>Yes. </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>This question has evidently been framed under a misapprehension, as the Department has been maintaining a mail service to Pinnaroo since December last, at a cost considerably in excess of the amount of revenue derived. </para>
</item>
<item label="3.">
<para>When the railway was opened to Pinnaroo recently, the South Australian Railway Commissioner refused to carry the mails by train unless a paymentof £250 per annum were made therefor. This payment has accordingly been authorized temporarily pending negotiations with the South Australian Government, whose attention has been drawn to the excessive and disproportionate amount of the charge as compared with the revenue derived from the service. </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5032</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>BOY LETTER CARRIERS</title>
<page.no>5032</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5032</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>DQC</name.id>
<electorate>WEST SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">HUGHES, William Morris</name>
<name role="display">Mr HUGHES</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the PostmasterGeneral, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>Whether he is aware that, in spite of his promise that the employment of boys as letter carriers in and around Sydney should be discontinued, some fifty-four of these boys are at present so engaged? </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>Will he take immediate steps to put an end to this practice ? </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5032</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JX7</name.id>
<electorate />
<party>Protectionist</party>
<role />
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CHAPMAN, Austin</name>
<name role="display">Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN</name>
</talker>
<para>- The answer to the honorable and learned member's questions is as follows : - </para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>and 2. Action has not yet been completed to enable messengers in and around Sydney, whose time is wholly or principally employed in delivering letters, to be replaced by assistants (letter carriers). A scheme has, however, been approved which will enable this to be done as early as possible, and application is being made to the Treasurer for the necessary funds. </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>CONSTITUTION ALTERATION (STATE DEBTS) BILL</title>
<page.no>5032</page.no>
<type>bill</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>Second Reading</title>
<page.no>5032</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<para>Debate resumed from 6th September <inline font-style="italic">(vide</inline> page 4224), on motion by <inline font-weight="bold">Sir John</inline> Forrest - </para>
<quote>
<para>That the Bill be now read a second time. </para>
</quote>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5032</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYT</name.id>
<electorate>Kooyong</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KNOX, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr KNOX</name>
</talker>
<para>.- There is more justification for the proposed alteration of the Constitution to allow of the taking over by the Commonwealth of all the debts of the States than there is for the other two proposed constitutional amendments. It is unfortunate that any alteration is needed so early in our his tory, but I admit that it is necessary to provide for some solution of the financial problems which concern the Commonwealth and the States. I have always considered that the framers of the Constitution deserve great credit for their work, which, notwithstanding some depreciation of late, was fittingly characterized by a distinguished politician as a monument of legislative ability. But they seem to have been unable to provide satisfactorily for the adjustment of the financial relations of the Commonwealth and the States, and particularly for the transfer of the debts of the States to the Commonwealth. I agree with the Treasurer that the arbitrary distinction drawn between what I might call pre-Federation arid postFederation debts is unnecessary, and creates difficulties as time goes on. The framers of the Constitution perhaps thought that the financial question would be solved very rapidly by the exercise of the powers conferred upon this Parliament, but the reasons for distinguishing between debts incurred prior to, arid those incurred after, Federation, will become less and less apparent as State loans are renewed. The Commonwealth should have power to deal with the whole or any part of the debts of the States as they mature. It is important that the limitation imposed by section 105 of the Constitution should not be lost sight of. Provision is made for equality of treatment in connexion .with the transfer of the debts of the various States. No doubt it was believed that we should ultimately have to fall back upon a transfer of responsibility upon a <inline font-style="italic">per capita</inline> basis. It is conceivable that the Commonwealth Parliament might have wished to take over the whole or part of the indebtedness of a single State. Section 105, as now proposed to be amended, would impose no restriction in that respect, arid I would suggest to the Treasurer that the enlarged power which he is now seeking should be accompanied by a provision that equal treatment shall be meted out to the various States by the Commonwealth. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5033</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>009MD</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">DEAKIN, Alfred</name>
<name role="display">Mr Deakin</name>
</talker>
<para>- Parliament, and not the Government, will exercise the power conferred by the section. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5033</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KNOX, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr KNOX</name>
</talker>
<para>- I quite recognise that ; but I am pointing out that under the section as it is proposed to be amended, the Commonwealth Parliament would be empowered ro take over the debts of one State without dealing with those of the other States. For instance, it might decide to take over the debts of New South Wales and ignore those of Victoria. I am quite sure that there is something in the point which I am asking the Treasurer to consider. Whilst we should probably be justified in trusting to Parliament not to make an invidious distinction between one State and another, it is only right that the attention of the Treasurer should be drawn to the fact that it is proposed to remove the qualification now contained in the section. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5033</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- There is no restriction in the case of our taking over the whole of the debts. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5033</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KNOX, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr KNOX</name>
</talker>
<para>- It is proposed to omit the words - "As existing at the establishment of the Commonwealth, or a proportion thereof, according to the numbers of their people, as shown by the latest statistics of the Commonwealth. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5033</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- But we could not take over the whole of the debts of any one State. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5033</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KNOX, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr KNOX</name>
</talker>
<para>- I wish to show that it is proposed to remove the qualification which now exists. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5033</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- The qualification does not exist if you take over the whole of the debts. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5033</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KNOX, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr KNOX</name>
</talker>
<para>- But power is being taken to enable the Commonwealth to take over a part or the whole of the debts of the States. I think that we are quite justified in taking that power. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5033</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- The words " or any part thereof " are intended to relate to the debts as they mature. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5033</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KNOX, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr KNOX</name>
</talker>
<para>- My point is that power is being taken which would be capable of being used to differentiate between the States. However, I shall now pass to another point. I have consulted <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Speaker,</inline> and I find that it will not be possible for me to embody in the measure now before us a proposal which I made some time ago in another form. I should like to insert a provision to the following effect : - </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<quote>
<para>That a Convention Or Royal Commission, to include members of the Commonwealth Parliament and of the States Parliaments, be appointed for the purposes following : - </para>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>To draft a scheme for the transfer of the whole or part of the State debts to the Commonwealth. </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>To make recommendations as to what constitutional amendments and statutory powers are necessary. </para>
</item>
<item label="3.">
<para>To advise as to the desirability of establishing a permanent Financial Council or Commission to undertake the future management of the public debts. </para>
</item>
</list>
</quote>
<para class="block">
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Speaker</inline>informs me that it would not be practicable to introduce such an amendment in this measure. To mv mind, it is urgently necessary that there should be an analysis of the debts which <inline font-style="italic">it is</inline> proposed to take over, and that can only be satisfactorily done by such, a body as I suggest. I do not think that the framers of the Constitution paid sufficient attention to the purposes for which the various debts were incurred. Whilst they strove to equalize the conditions as between the various States, they should have paid some regard to the manner in which loan moneys had been expended. I have had a series of statements prepared, and, by the courtesy of the Treasurer, have had them subjected to the revision of his able acting secretary. I do not wish to trouble the House by reading these statements in detail, but I should like to hand them to <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> for publication. Perhaps you, sir, will inform me whether I may adopt that course? </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5034</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">QUICK, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Quick</name>
</talker>
<para>- Are the statements very long? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5034</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KNOX, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr KNOX</name>
</talker>
<para>- No, but they are very important. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5034</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>10000</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">SPEAKER, Mr</name>
<name role="display">Mr SPEAKER</name>
</talker>
<para>- The honorable member may, of. course, read the whole or any portion of the statements. I should not like to give a formal ruling that any matter which has not been read in the House should be included in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard.</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5034</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KNOX, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr KNOX</name>
</talker>
<para>- What I wish specially to emphasize is that, in taking over the debts of the various States, we should differentiate between debts which are payable in Australia, and debts which are payable in London. I find that the public debts of New South Wales, which have been incurred in London, aggregate £64,000,000, and those which have been incurred in Australia £18,000,000, and the municipal debt of that State is only ,£2^41 ,000. Victoria has incurred in London debts amountin? to ,£44,710,000 and in Australia debts totalling ,£12,105,000, in addition to municipal debts aggregating £13,182,000. I do not wish to trouble the House with similar details in. respect of .Queensland, South Australia, Western Australia, and Tasmania, but they are set out in the following statement, which speaks for itself :- </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<para class="block">
<graphic href="034331190609203_3_0.jpg" />
</para>
<para class="block">I merely desire to emphasize the fact that when the debts of the various States are taken over - in order to insure a just distribution of advantage or disadvantage - some regard should be paid to the purposes to which those funds have been applied. ' For instance, as I have already pointed out, there is a municipal debt in New South Wales of only £2,041,000, whereas Victoria has a municipal debt of £I3, I 82,000. The reason for this disparity, is to be found in the fact that in Victoria we had a very complete local Government organization that undertook responsibilities which in New South Wales and the other States were incurred by the Government. In Queensland, for example, the Government have advanced large sums to sugar refineriesThe mere arbitrary taking over of the "debts of the States at any fixed period demands that we should go a considerable distance further- </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5034</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JNV</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">BAMFORD, Frederick</name>
<name role="display">Mr Bamford</name>
</talker>
<para>- There are no municipal debts in Queensland, apart from those which have been incurred by the Government. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5035</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KNOX, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr KNOX</name>
</talker>
<para>- Exactly. . The Government of that State shouldered the responsibility of providing the necessary funds for municipal purposes. I have no doubt whatever that the electors of Australia will sanction the proposed amendment of the Constitution, because it is so manifestly necessary in order to permit of an equitable arrangement being arrived at as between the States and the Commonwealth. So far as Victoria is concerned, I claim that unless her municipal indebtedness is allowed to participate in any advantages which may flow from the transfer of the States debts to the Commonwealth a great injustice will be done. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5035</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KW6</name.id>
<electorate>NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">THOMSON, Dugald</name>
<name role="display">Mr DUGALD THOMSON</name>
</talker>
<para>- Probably some of those debts could not be taken over without the consent of the parties concerned. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5035</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KNI</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">HARPER, Robert</name>
<name role="display">Mr Harper</name>
</talker>
<para>- Who are responsible for them ? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5035</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KNOX, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr KNOX</name>
</talker>
<para>- Not the Government of "Victoria. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5035</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KNI</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">HARPER, Robert</name>
<name role="display">Mr Harper</name>
</talker>
<para>- The Government have never paid the interest out of the revenue. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5035</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KNOX, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr KNOX</name>
</talker>
<para>- That is perfectly true. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5035</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- Each State has to pay interest upon its own indebtedness. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5035</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KNOX, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr KNOX</name>
</talker>
<para>- But the time will arrive when the scheme proposed by the honorable member for Mernda will, in essence, come into operation, and therefore it would be wise for us now to establish the principle for which I arn contending. I mantain that we shall require to make an analytical examination of the debts of the various States, and of the purposes to which those funds were devoted, in addition to deciding upon an arbitrary adjustment of the amounts which may be transferred. If honorable members will do me the favour to read my remarks in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard,</inline> I think they will recognise that there is considerable force in my contention. I venture to think that Victoria has a right to participate in any advantage which may ultimately attach to the <inline font-style="italic">imprimatur</inline> of the Commonwealth being placed upon the States indebtedness. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5035</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KW6</name.id>
<electorate>NORTH SYDNEY, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>FT; ANTI-SOC from 1906</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">THOMSON, Dugald</name>
<name role="display">Mr DUGALD THOMSON</name>
</talker>
<para>- We can only equalize matters bv a process of exclusion. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5035</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KNOX, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr KNOX</name>
</talker>
<para>- I quite agree that we may arrive at an equitable basis by that process. Believing, as I do, that it is wise to differentiate between the States debts which, are payable in London, and those which are payable in Australia, I have prepared the following statement showing the amounts maturing in Australia up to 1920 : - 1 </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<para class="block">
<graphic href="034331190609203_4_1.jpg" />
</para>
<para class="block">In another table I have set out the public debts of the various States which! mature in London. I think it would be a disaster if the Commonwealth were not able to convert those debts at 3 per cent. The table to which I refer is as follows: - </para>
<para class="block">
<graphic href="034331190609203_5_0.jpg" />
</para>
<para class="block">On a 3 per cent. basis, it will thus be seen that we could effect a saving of £5, 3 19,000 by taking over those debts as they mature. That saving does not include any compound interest. We should not only differentiate between debts which mature in London and loans which mature in Australia, but between the manner in which the proceeds of these loanshave been applied. I may tell honorable members that I should have been in a far better position to submit close figures in connexion with this matter if I had been in possession of the last Budget speeches of the States Treasurers. Nevertheless, I have endeavoured to show what would be the effect of allowing the whole of the debts which mature in London to be transferred to the Commonwealth, and permitting those incurred in Australia to remain under the control of the States. The power to do this will be secured if the people of the Commonwealth agree to this amendment of the. Constitution. In this way many restrictions now imposed upon us by the Constitution will be removed. I had intended to elaborate my argument on this point, but find that I shall have to leave almost immediately to introduce an important deputation to the Postmaster-General. I rose chiefly to say that, whilst we may regret that, at this early stage in our history, an alteration of the Constitution should be necessary, it must be recognised that no amendment is more justifiable than that now proposed. It will remove manydifficulties, and I earnestly hope that the proposal of the States Treasurers to meet with a view of taking steps to protect their own interests in this matter will be carried out. It would be a mistake for this Parliament to place itself in a position of antagonism to the States. We must carry them with us. Any highhanded determination on our part to do this or that would lead to confusion, discontent, and disaster. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5036</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4R</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">WATSON, John Christian</name>
<name role="display">Mr Watson</name>
</talker>
<para>- Under the Constitution the States have no voice in regard to the transfer of the debts incurred prior to Federation. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5036</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KNOX, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr KNOX</name>
</talker>
<para>- I recognise that, but surely we do not wish to ignore them. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5036</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4R</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">WATSON, John Christian</name>
<name role="display">Mr Watson</name>
</talker>
<para>- They have been approached on many occasions, and since they have failed to arrive at a reasonable agreement it is time we took independent action. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5036</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KNOX, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr KNOX</name>
</talker>
<para>- The States Treasurers are beginning to recognise that in their own interests they must meet in conference and deal with this question. I am glad that such a conference is about to be held, and feel that, sooner or later, it will be recognised that my proposal for the appointment of an authoritative body to deal with the various suggestions that have been made in regard to this financial problem is the only means of bringing about an equitable arrangement. As the first step in that direction the proposed amendment of the Constitution will justify itself. It is now proposed to place in the hands of the Commonwealth unlimited power to differentiate between the States as to the debts which shall be taken over. The framers of the Constitution held that, in taking over the debts of the States, we should have regard to their population. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5037</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KFJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FORREST, John</name>
<name role="display">Sir John Forrest</name>
</talker>
<para>- Not when we take over the whole of the debts existing at the establishment of the Commonwealth. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5037</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYT</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KNOX, William</name>