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19230727_reps_9_104.xml
1961 lines (1961 loc) · 224 KB
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19230727_reps_9_104.xml
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<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<hansard xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd" version="2.1" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
<session.header>
<date>1923-07-27</date>
<parliament.no>9</parliament.no>
<session.no>2</session.no>
<period.no>1</period.no>
<chamber>REPS</chamber>
<page.no>1727</page.no>
<proof>0</proof>
</session.header>
<chamber.xscript>
<para class="block">House of Representatives. </para>
<business.start>
<day.start>1923-07-27</day.start>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Speaker</inline>(Rt. Hon. W. A. Watt) took the chair at 11 a.m., and road prayers. </para>
</business.start>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>MR. DONALD CAMERON, M.H.R</title>
<page.no>1727</page.no>
<type>miscellaneous</type>
</debateinfo>
<para>Lea ve of Absence. </para>
<para>Motion (by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Bruce),</inline><inline font-style="italic">by leave,</inline> agreed to- </para>
<quote>
<para>That leave of absence for one month be given to the honorable member for Brisbane <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Donald Cameron)</inline> on the ground of urgent public business. </para>
</quote>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>1727</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>PUBLIC TELEPHONES</title>
<page.no>1727</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<para>Emergency Information</para>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1727</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZK</name.id>
<electorate>REID, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">COLEMAN, Percy</name>
<name role="display">Mr COLEMAN</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Postmaster- General, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>Is it a factthat a serious inconvenience arises in cases of accident, fire, sickness, or other emergency, in country and suburban districts, when public telephones are used, on ao- count of the telephone books containing the lists of subscribers having been removed or stolen? </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>Will he arrange for the permanent display in telephone bureaux of notices containing the names of district doctors, ambulances, fire brigades, &c., and other information to meet emergencies? 3.Is it a fact that many local councils are prepared toco-operate with a view to giving effect to this request? </para>
</item>
<item label="4.">
<para>If unable to comply with this request, will be authorize local governing bodies to display in telephone bureaux the information referred to? </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1728</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KAY</name.id>
<electorate>CORANGAMITE, VICTORIA</electorate>
<party>CP</party>
<role>Postmaster-General</role>
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">GIBSON, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr GIBSON</name>
</talker>
<para>- The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow: - </para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>I am not aware of any such cases. No number is necessary in the case of urgent calls for the police, fire brigade, or ambulance. All the caller need do is ask the Exchange for the place desired and the telephonist will connect to the number required. </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>Arrangements will be made for a permanent notice to be placed in public telephone cabinets advising callers how to proceed in case of urgent calls for the fire brigade, police, or ambulance. </para>
</item>
<item label="3.">
<para>I am not aware of this fact. </para>
</item>
<item label="4.">
<para>Bee answer to No. 2. </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>1728</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>SUPERANNUATION: POSTAL DEPARTMENT</title>
<page.no>1728</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<para>Lists Assurance Refunds</para>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1728</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZK</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">COLEMAN, Percy</name>
<name role="display">Mr COLEMAN</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the PostmasterGeneral, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>When will payment of moneys held by the Postal Department in lieu of life assurance under regulation 184 be refunded, in view of the Superannuation Act having superseded insurance policies ? </para>
</quote>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1728</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KAY</name.id>
<electorate />
<party>CP</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">GIBSON, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr GIBSON</name>
</talker>
<para>- The Treasury issued instructions on the 20th July that, as the Public Service Act 1922 has now been brought into operation, applications for refunds of contributions made by officers under Public Service Regulation 184 should be submitted by them and forwarded to the Treasury with as little delay as possible. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>1728</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>MILITARY TITLES</title>
<page.no>1728</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1728</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZK</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">COLEMAN, Percy</name>
<name role="display">Mr COLEMAN</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Minister for Defence, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>Under what conditions is permission granted to officers and/ or chaplains who have served in the A.I.F. to retain their military titles in civil life? 2.Will he supply a list of such officers and/or chaplains to whom this permissionhas been granted? </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1728</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JRH</name.id>
<electorate>PARRAMATTA, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>NAT</party>
<role>Minister for Defence</role>
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">BOWDEN, Eric</name>
<name role="display">Mr BOWDEN</name>
</talker>
<para>- The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - </para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>All officers (including chaplains) who served in the A.I.F. abroad have, unless retained on the Active List, been granted, on the Reserve of Officers of the Citizen Forces, the ranks they held in the A.I.F., but under the Regulations they are not permitted to use the title of their military rank in signing documents other than those signed in connexion with military duty. </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>Over 10,000 officers and chaplains have been so dealt with, but as the necessity for economy has prevented the publication of a revised and complete list, it is impracticable to supply the list asked for. However, if the honorable member desires to obtain informstion as to any particular names on the list, this information will be gladly supplied to him on his application to the Department. </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>1728</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>TAXATION OFFICERS</title>
<page.no>1728</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<para>Compensation</para>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1728</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JVT</name.id>
<electorate>NORTHERN TERRITORY, NORTHERN TERRITORY</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">NELSON, Harold</name>
<name role="display">Mr NELSON</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Treasurer, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>In view of the fact that it will be necessary for many officers of the Taxation Department to seek other avenues of employment in consequence of the new taxation arrangements, will the Government promise that any compensation scheme, which may be adopted later for taxation officers who are retrenched as a result of new arrangements between the States and the Commonwealth, will apply to officers who resigned from the Taxation Department after the 1st June, 1923, as a result of the new scheme, or who may resign between that date and the introduction of the Bill providing for their retirement? </para>
</quote>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1728</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>C7E</name.id>
<electorate>COWPER, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>CP</party>
<role>Treasurer</role>
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">PAGE, Earle</name>
<name role="display">Dr EARLE PAGE</name>
</talker>
<para>- The whole policy in connexion with this matter is under consideration. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>1728</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>MIGRATION ADVERTISEMENTS</title>
<page.no>1728</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1728</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JLY</name.id>
<electorate>BOURKE, VICTORIA</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">ANSTEY, Frank</name>
<name role="display">Mr ANSTEY</name>
</talker>
<para>asked thePrime Minister, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>Is it a fact that the following advertisement appeared in the Leicester Daily <inline font-style="italic">Mercury.</inline> of 24th May, 1923 : - " Youths, in large numbers, from fifteen up wanted immediately for Australia. Married men going on the group settlement scheme are provided with a fourroomed house; the passage advanced; work on arrival. Full particulars from <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Michael</inline> (ex-colonial),17 Highfield-street, Leicester"? </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>If so, will he make immediate inquiries to ascertain if the immigration authorities in England are responsible for such' advertisements? </para>
</item>
<item label="3.">
<para>Is the passage money advanced, and are work and a four-roomed house provided for each married immigrant? </para>
</item>
<item label="4.">
<para>If not, will he cable instructions for the insertion of another advertisement in the Leicester <inline font-style="italic">Daily Mercury</inline> contradicting those promises, so that in future Britishers will not be deceived into coming to Australia? </para>
</item>
<item label="5.">
<para>Will he also have inquiries made to see if <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Michael</inline> receives any bonus or other remuneration for each immigrant he secures by this method? </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1729</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4B</name.id>
<electorate>FLINDERS, VICTORIA</electorate>
<party>NAT</party>
<role>Minister for External Affairs</role>
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">BRUCE, Stanley</name>
<name role="display">Mr BRUCE</name>
</talker>
<para>- The answers to the honorable member's questions are as follow : - </para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>I am unaware whether such an advertisement was inserted in the Leicester <inline font-style="italic">Daily Mercury</inline> on the 24th May, 1923. </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>I shall have inquiry made. 3 and 4. Under the passage-money agreement between the British and Commonwealth Governments, provision is madefor part, and in special cases up to the whole, of the passage money, exclusive of the Government grant, to be advanced to approved assisted migrants on loan. Married migrants, accompanied by their families, are placed on group settlements in Western Australia upon arrival, and are provided with work and a four-roomed house. </para>
</item>
<item label="5.">
<para>
<inline font-style="italic">Yes.</inline>
</para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>1729</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>CUSTOMS REVENUE</title>
<page.no>1729</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<para>Primary Produce</para>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1729</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYI</name.id>
<electorate>FORREST, WESTERN AUSTRALIA</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">PROWSE, John</name>
<name role="display">Mr PROWSE</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Minister for Trade and Customs, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>In view of the published statement that farmers are well protected by Customs duties on the following farm products : - Sheep, pigs, cattle, horses, bacon, butter and cheese, butter substitute, eggs, egg albumen, egg yolk, bananas, dried fruits, wheat, barley, maize, hay and chaff, honey, jams and jellies, hops, lard and lard oil, linseed meal, malt, meat (fresh or smoked), frozen meat, preserved milk, onions, straw, vegetables - will he state the revenue received by the Customs Department during the past twelve months under each of the above items? </para>
</quote>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1729</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JX7</name.id>
<electorate>EDEN-MONARO, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>NAT</party>
<role>Minister for Health</role>
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CHAPMAN, Austin</name>
<name role="display">Mr AUSTIN CHAPMAN</name>
</talker>
<para>- The information is being obtained. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>TARIFF BOARD</title>
<page.no>1729</page.no>
<type>miscellaneous</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>Personal Explanation</title>
<page.no>1729</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1729</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KMQ</name.id>
<electorate>PERTH, WESTERN AUSTRALIA</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MANN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Mr MANN</name>
</talker>
<para>-I desire to make a very short personal explanation. When I was speaking last night on the Tariff Board Bill with reference to a document which I stated had been handed to the Minister for Trade and Customs <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Austin Chapman),</inline> I made the remark that there was not a single statement in that document which was correct. That was an unfortunate remark, which I regret having made. The document contains statements some of which . I consider are incorrect, some are correct but misleading, and some could be contradicted. What I wished to convey was that there was not a single conclusion drawn in that document which could be taken as reliable. It is in that sense that I desire my remarks to be interpreted. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>1729</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>IMPERIAL AND ECONOMIC CONFERENCES</title>
<page.no>1729</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<para>Subjects Listed for Discussion</para>
<para>Debate resumed from 24th July <inline font-style="italic">(vide</inline> page 1494), on motion by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Bruce</inline> - </para>
<quote>
<para>That the papers be printed. </para>
</quote>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1729</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JXA</name.id>
<electorate>Hunter</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CHARLTON, Matthew</name>
<name role="display">Mr CHARLTON</name>
</talker>
<para>.- The right honorable the Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce),</inline> in submitting the agenda of the Imperial Conference, expressed the desire that, as far as possible, the members of this House should, in debating the motion for the printing of the papers, give him a guide to their views on the subjects to be discussed at the Conference. The Imperial Conference may be fraught with great consequences to Australia. It is, therefore, necessary that we should give our best attention to its programme. It will be admitted at once that the proposals contained in the agenda contemplate a complete departure from the inter-imperial relations that exist at the present moment. The farflung Dominions of the Empire possess full powers of self-government, ' but there is no written constitution or law governing their relations within the Empire. It is left to them to legislate in their own interests along lines which they consider will make for the development of their territories. But the adoption of the proposals contained in the agenda of the Imperial Conference will involve the establishment of an entirely new condition of things. An agreement embracing these proposals will at once bring about an Imperial understanding which will have to be observed by the Parliaments of the Dominions in conjunction with the Imperial Parliament. I doubt very much whether that will achieve the object which, I believe, we all have in view. Our object is to make Great Britain and the British Dominions a power in the world, with the intention of promoting international peace, so far as that is possible of achievement. On two matters of very great importance, involving our participation in Imperial foreign affairs, the Prime Minister was definite, but in regard to most of the subjects listed for discussion the right honorable gentleman was quite indefinite. On the questions of foreign relations and defence, he made it very clear that he considers that the time has arrived when we should be linked up with Great Britain in regard to. these matters. He holds that view because he believes that that would make for the strengthening of the Empire. I doubt very much whether, if agreed to, it would be found that in actual operation that policy would make for the strengthening of the Empire. It is quite possible that by laying down a definite procedure different from any relations existing at the present time, we may be sowing seeds which will bring about the disintegration of the Empire. There is the danger. Although the Dominions now have the right to exercise their powers of self-government as they think fit, it may be contended that if they are tied to a definite course of action, expressed in writing; if they agree with Great Britain to follow, in certain matters, a defined course, we shall be sowing seeds which, instead of bearing the fruit anticipated by many in this country, will lead to the disintegration of the Empire. When the Empire has progressed so well for years under the existing unwritten understanding, what is the necessity to alter that condition of affairs? What is it that leads people to think along these lines ? I admit, so far as the Prime Minister is concerned, that ever since the right honorable gentleman assumed office he has consistently advocated Imperialism. He has, as far as possible - assisted in very many cases by the press - endeavoured to mould public opinion on the lines indicated in the agenda of the Imperial Conference. , According to the right honorable gentleman, one of the most important subjects listed for discussion has emanated from himself. I have to say, therefore, of the Prime Minister that he has been entirely consistent. Hs is endeavouring to bring into being the condition of affairs to which I have referred. He evidently believes in it. He has been good enough to say that as the matter is one which vitally affects the whole of the people of Australia, it cannot be regarded in a party light, and we are entitled to make known just what we think about it. The first three subjects on the agenda of the Imperial Conference are. - </para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>Statement as to the general position on main' issues of Imperial policy. </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>Review of foreign affairs since 1921 Conference, and consideration of present problems and future policy. </para>
</item>
<item label="3.">
<para>Naval, military, and air defence. </para>
</item>
</list>
<para class="block">As to the proposed review of what has happened in world's affairs since 1921, I do not know why it should commence with that particular year. The point at which I think we should commence our review is the date on which the Armistice was signed. Let us trace events from that time. During the war it was contended by almost every one that it was a war to end wars, and that the great sacrifices which it entailed should insure international peace for the future. Tlie feeling of those who participated in the Conference at which the Peace Treaty was signed was that everything should be done to promote the world's peace by bringing about disarmament. That was the view held by all leading men. In the light of what has happened since, I ask honorable members, where are those men to-day, and what are they doing to give effect to that view. Are they working for disarmament and peace, or are they preparing for future wars? I regret to say there is only one answer to that question. We have forgotten the lessons of the late disastrous war to such an extent that nations in almost every part of the world are making preparations for other wars. Where will this policy lead the world? I speak not of Australia in particular; I am endeavouring to take a world-wide view. I predict that this policy will lead the world to disaster - nothing less confronts humanity if the nations continue to prepare for war, when their first consideration should be to bring about peace, by disarmament. I am sorry to say that some of the leading men of the world, who were the loudest in expressing at the time of the Versailles Conference their desire to bring about peace, have since done more to upset the peace than they ever did to promote it. The Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce),</inline> in speaking of the recent Turkish troubles, said - </para>
<quote>
<para>The action of the British Prime Minister was most unfortunate in regard to that matter. We had no option 'hut to stand up for Great Britain. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">If Australia, as a self-governing Dominion, must respond to the call of any gentleman who happens to be at the head of Imperial affairs, or even of the Imperial Government," "without knowing anything about the rights or wrongs of the dispute with which it is concerned, the outlook is not bright. What did the Government of the Commonwealth do ? I must recall these events, because this is the time when they should be recalled. Although Parliament was sitting when the telegram asking Australia to participate in a war was received from the British Prime Minister, his request was granted without consulting Parliament. The present Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce)</inline> and the Treasurer <inline font-weight="bold">(Dr. Earle Page)</inline> indorsed that action, but the Prime Minister now says that it was ah unfortunate business, and urges that Australia should be linked up with Great Britain in such a way that we may have a voice- in such matters in the future. When members of the Opposition urged that the people of Australia should have a voice in determining whether their country should participate in the threatened Turkish war, we were found fault with by these gentlemen. But I shall quote a few extracts to show what men, who were not Labour leaders, thought of the incident. In a leading article the London <inline font-style="italic">Daily News</inline> stated - </para>
<quote>
<para>This Government's curse has been that they acted in the Near East crisis as if they had been ploying' a game. Nearly every move has been either indiscreet, provocative, or both. </para>
<para>There never has been an international emergency in which British statesmen more shamefully imperilled peace. </para>
<para>Viscount Gladstone, in a speech at Manchester, said - </para>
<para>The appeal to the Dominions, regarding the Near East crisis was made without the knowledge of the Foreign Office. " We have developed two Foreign Offices at Downing-street in the past few years," he said, " one of which is in the Prime Minister's garden." </para>
<para>The following appeared in the Melbourne <inline font-style="italic">Argus</inline> of 7th October, 1922: - </para>
<para>Lord Islington and several other influential members of the Near and Middle East Association have issued a statement that the crisis in the Near East is largely attributable to Great Britain's unwise Eastern policy during the last three years. It should be made clear to the Government, says the statement, that the nation will refuse to support any war it believes to be unnecessary and honorably avoidable. All questions outstanding should speedily be composed by negotiations' based upon concerted action with the Allies. The policy of isolation and provocation should never have been assumed, and should be finally abandoned. " The policy has entailed vast additional and quite unnecessary expenditure, and has brought us to the very brink of war: the issue of which, both at Home and abroad, none can foresee," concludes the statement. </para>
<para class="block">The views of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Asquith,</inline> .a prominent British statesman, should count for something on this subject. I quote from the Melbourne <inline font-style="italic">Age</inline> of 9th October, 1922- </para>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Asquith</inline>and <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Donald</inline> Maclean, M's.P., addressed the members of the Scottish Liberal party at a Conference at Dumfries. The Conference affirmed a resolution that British foreign policy should aim at reconciliation of her late enemies, the establishment of friendly relations with all peoples, and an amendment of the so-called Peace Treaty, to conform to those ends. A further resolution expressed the belief that the League of Nations was a safeguard against future wars, and the means of fostering international good-will. </para>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Asquith,</inline>in the course of a speech, said that 'he had supposed British Diplomacy had reached the climax of clumsiness and ineptitude in the publication of the Balfour Note, but that had been easily surpassed in all the qualities which such a document ought not to possess by the communication from Downingstreet appealing to the Dominions, which sounded notes of provocation and panic. It was issued without any intimation to the other Powers. " All this strident rhetoric, bugle-blowing and flag-waving was wholly inexplicable," said he, " unless the prospect of war was well in sight. Had we been fighting Turkey to-day we would have been singlehanded. Neither France nor Italy would have sacrificed a man or fired a gun. The .freedom of the Straits is a matter of international importance, and is in no sense exclusive or mainly British." </para>
<para class="block">Another authority I wish to cite is General Townshend. In the Sydney <inline font-style="italic">Evening News</inline> of 23rd October, 1922, it is stated - </para>
<para>Meanwhile General Townshend has entered the lists in a striking article in the <inline font-style="italic">Pall Mall Gazette,</inline> and makes certain charges which, if substantiated, are of an extremely grave character. The first and the most important is that, on his return from Angora, at the beginning of September, on Cth September to he exact, he handed to <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Lloyd</inline> George, personally, a memorandum stating Mustapha Kemal' Pasha's terms of peace, which included the control of the Straits by the Allies. </para>
<para>Yet, on 16th September, the ex-Premier issued his historic call to the Dominions to stand behind Britain in demanding, insisting on, and maintaining Allied control of the Straits. </para>
<para>Then this opinion was expressed by a Minister of the Crown, the Foreign Minister - Earl Curzon - whose opinion, as a member of the British Government at that time, should carry great weight - </para>
<para>I have not always agreed with their policy, and the manifesto issued to the Dominions concerning the Dardanelles on 10th September, was issued without my knowledge. It was unfortunate in character and tone. There is no doubt that when we have a Prime Minister, with <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Lloyd</inline> George's peculiar gifts, such a man must exercise an unusual influence on foreign affairs. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">Those are the views of leading public men in Great Britain, none of them Labour men, and I have quoted them to show that, in matters of foreign policy, the leaders of Governments consult nobody, but act according to their own views. How near we were then to being embroiled in another war which would have meant disaster, not only to the Commonwealth, but to the world ! </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1732</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>L0I</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">RYRIE, Granville</name>
<name role="display">Sir Granville Ryrie</name>
</talker>
<para>- The promptness of the Dominions in saying "Yes" prevented that war. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1732</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JXA</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">CHARLTON, Matthew</name>
<name role="display">Mr CHARLTON</name>
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<para>- The Prime Minister has made a similar remark. My view is that the action of some of the men I have quoted, and of the British Labour party and the Australian Labour party, which represent the workers who do the fighting, prevented that war. Had the Governments concerned been sure that the Labour party would have gone whole-heartedly into the conflict, the war might now be taking place. But by negotiating instead of fighting, an agreement has been reached, and war has been averted. A surprising feature of the occurrence is that two countries who were Allies in the recent war were "sooling" on the two contending parties. France was backing the Turks, and Great Britain' the Greeks; and thus they were encouraging a quarrel which might have set Europe ablaze. This was done notwithstanding all that had been said about peace at the Versailles Conference. Every country in the world is impoverished to-day as a result of the great war. Millions were killed in the war, and millions more are to-day unemployed because of it. But the peoples of the world are coming to realize that war is at all times disastrous, and are expecting of their public men that they shall strive for disarmament and peace. They wish for the dove of peace, not the lion of war. Yet every country is preparing for defence, and the Prime Minister and other public men state that it is necessary to prepare for defence in order to prevent war. I hold the contrary view. I believe that if nations continue to prepare for war they will surely find it. It comes ' to those who look for it. While we of the British Empire say that we must prepare for war in order to protect ourselves, we should remember that Turkey, France, the United States of America, Japan, and all other nations are saying the same thing. The result is a mad competition in armaments. When a certain stage in warlike preparations has been reached, a small quarrel may embroil the world in a moment. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1732</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KEQ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">KILLEN, William</name>
<name role="display">Mr Killen</name>
</talker>
<para>- We look to the League of Nations to prevent that. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1732</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JXA</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">CHARLTON, Matthew</name>
<name role="display">Mr CHARLTON</name>
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<para>- Honorable members talk a lot about the League of Nations. The Prime Minister has referred to it on more than one occasion. I was sorry to hear him say that he hoped that men like myself would not rely on the League of Nations, because we could not hope , for much relief from that source. I do not look to the League of Nations only. I look to every avenue that can be opened to bring about disarmament. My object in life - and I would be content for the remaining years of it to do nothing else, could I secure the end I have at heart - is to preach peace, for I could engage in no better occupation. My . desire, which, has been strengthened by the lessons learned in the recent war, is to prevent further European conflicts, to promote peace, and to reduce the heavy expenditure upon defence, which is a crushing burden on this and every other country. Australia did not suffer so much from the war as did the other countries engaged in it. We have had good seasons, with abundant harvests, and have been supplying markets abroad. Will those happy conditions continue? I hope they may; but there is room for grave doubt. If they do not, we shall feel later the effects which other countries are feeling now. The League of Nations has not come up to my expectations, but that is largely because public men generally have riot striven to popularize it. Instead of using their tongues to induce the people to arm themselves for another war, they should have worked strenuously to popularize the League of Nations. On that point I find fault with the Prime Minister. He told us that the League of Nations now regards Australia as a separate nation, and not as merely a portion of the British Empire. The very recognition of the Commonwealth's altered status imposes upon us the duty to try to galvanize life into the League. The same duty devolves upon the Parliaments of other nations. But we are pursuing the very opposite course. We are told from the platform and in the press that we are part of one great Empire, and have to continue preparations to resist ' further aggression. The bogy that a certain nation looks with greedy eyes upon Australia is held before us, and we are warned that further defence preparations are necessary. That argument does not appeal to me. The first item on the agenda-paper of an Imperial Conference should be a proposal to get more closely into touch with the nations of the world with a view to devising means to bring about complete disarmament. No such proposal finds a place upon the agendapaper. Our statesmen cannot see beyond the boundaries of the Empire. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1733</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KMU</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">MARKS, Walter</name>
<name role="display">Mr Marks</name>
</talker>
<para>- The Prime Minister of Great Britain, replying to a question in the House of Commons two days ago, said that at present it is impossible to get any results from the League of Nations. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1733</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JXA</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
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<name role="metadata">CHARLTON, Matthew</name>
<name role="display">Mr CHARLTON</name>
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<para>- That supports my contention that public men are not endeavouring to popularize the League of Nations. They apparently have abandoned it in despair. How can troubles be settled unless representatives of the parties in dispute meet in conference, and, as sensible beings, debate the issues calmly. It is not sufficient to say that that cannot be done. In every trouble, small or large, the disputants should meet to discuss the issue, and consider whether a peaceful arrangement can be arrived at. That is the ideal of the League of Nations. But, unfortunately, some nations have been excluded from the League. If effective steps are to be taken to bring about world peace, every nation must be admitted to full membership of the League. We cannot afford to leave one or two nations outside that great international council; if we do, they will be a source of trouble. No embargo should be placed upon any nation. Every country should have the v right to govern itself according to its own desires. No nation has the right to attempt to interfere with the internal development and political arrangements of another. If the nations, without interfering in each other's internal affairs, can come to an understanding to prevent the continuation of huge expenditure upon armaments, that surely is the proper policy to adopt. The League of Nations has never been given the opportunity to which it is entitled. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<para>The Prime Minister considers that something must be done to insure peace in the Pacific. Why not endeavour to promote the consummation of the understanding which has been arrived at already <inline font-style="italic">1</inline> At the last Imperial Conference, the then Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. W. M. Hughes)</inline> submitted a proposal for a Conference on world-wide disarmament. Subsequently, a Conference convened by America was held at Washington, and certain agreements were made. Now we are told in effect that nothing is to come of them, notwithstanding that the nations interested in the Pacific solemnly pledged themselves to a course of action in pursuance of them. If the agreements already made are to be ineffective, what will be the use of a further Conference ? I believe that some good will come out of the Washington agreements, and, therefore, I see no necessity for another Conference. What would be the effect of the Prime Minister's proposal ? If Great Britain were to convene a Conference of the nations interested in the Pacific, they would take umbrage at once. They would say, " This is an insult to us. We met you last year, discussed many matters, and came to certain agreements, which we are prepared to honour." Neither America nor Japan has indicated that it will not give effect to the resolutions of the Conference at Washington. Certainly, France was dilatory in signing the agreement, but there is no need for a further Conference. I could better understand a proposal to convene a Conference of Powers to ascertain whether effect is being given to the decisions of the Washington Conference. Instead, an entirely new Conference is proposed. Probably that is done in order to create in the public mind the impression that Australia is in danger of attack from Japan. I have never had any reason to think that effect would not be given to the decisions to which the nations pledged' themselves at Washington. If there is any 'indication that those understandings are not to be honoured, if the Prime Minister has advices to that effect from abroad, the House should be so informed. The Washington Conference agreed to scrap certain war-ships, and the Commonwealth is expected to scrap the <inline font-style="italic">Australia,</inline> which cost this country £2,000,000, and the replacement of which would involve an expenditure of about £7,000,000. In view of those agreements, we are entitled to know to what extent they are being honoured by the different signatory nations. We hailed them with delight a year ago, because we considered that they would lead to a reduction of naval expenditure and insure peace in the Pacific. I believe that the Washington Conference resolutions will bear good fruit if properly handled; but if they are allowed to drop, as the League of Nations has been, and we seek a further Conference, we shall be no nearer finality, and nothing but trouble will result. </para>
<para>Although the Prime Minister is not in favour of the creation of an Empire Parliament, he believes that Australia should be represented in London by a Minister whose voice could be heard in foreign affairs. I confidently say that such an appointment would be of no advantage to Australia. We have no right to interfere with the Imperial Government's affairs; we should concern ourselves with our own problems of government and development. What would be the position of a Minister sent to London for a period of three years? We know that, in connexion with the Near East crisis last year, the Cabinet of Great Britain was not consulted. If two or three Imperial Ministers could commit that country to a policy without consulting their own colleagues, what chance would there be of Australia's voice being heard? Secret diplomacy continues. We thought that after the" x Great War secrecy in foreign negotiations ' would be abandoned for ever, but it is as much resorted to to-day as at any time in the history of the world. At first this Parliament could get no information iti regard to the Near East situation, although we subsequently learned certainfacts from South Africa. An Australian Minister in London would probably know no more about important questions of foreign affairs than would honorable members sitting in this Parliament; probably he would know less. Therefore I see no justification for appointing a Minister in London. I have no desire that Australia shall meddle with Great Britain's affairs. In the past, the British people have managed their own affairs very well from their point of view. It is characteristic of all international troubles that they develop very quickly. Secret negotiations take place between statesmen and diplomats over a short period; intense feeling is engendered between the parties, they are unable to come to terms; and within twentyfour hours the people concerned find themselves committed to a war. What influence would an Australian Minister have in such a crisis? What chance would there be of the voice of the Commonwealth being heard? The Prime Minister said that such a Minister would help in connexion with foreign relations, which was a matter to be dealtwith by the Executive, not Parliament. I differ from the Prime Minister. It is not for the Executive to decide foreign policy. Parliament should know what is taking place, every card should be on the table, and the light of day should be let in upon all negotiations. We are no longer satisfied to follow the lead of two or three men in different countries in regard to important issues affecting the lives of millions of people. The time has arrived for all diplomacy to be open and above-board, and for secrecy in these matters to disappear for ever. The people should have an opportunity of saying whether or not they approve of foreign policy. So long as information is withheld from the people, so long may we expect a continuance of that dangerous condition that has existed for years past. I shudder to think what would happen if the world became embroiled in another war. We hear much talk about revolution. In a country like Australia there is no' need for revolution .r But think of the position of the workers throughout the world. In Britain, for instance, 1,500,000 workers are unemployed to-day as a result of the great war. Similar conditions exist in other countries. If statesmen and diplomats embroil their countries in another war, the great mass of the people will take a stand in opposition to it, and then will follow revolution throughout the world. Instead of promoting peace, the present procedure aggravates the causes of war and revolution. </para>
<para>Another matter listed for discussion at the Imperial Conference, is the right of any one Dominion to enter into separate treaties, without consulting Great Britain and the other Dominions. I do not know, why that matter appears on the agendapaper, unless it be due to the fact that recently Canada made an agreement with the United States of America. I understand that that position has been cleared up. But I ask what right have we to interfere with any other Dominion simply because it is part of the Empire. We have quite sufficient to do to look after our own business and to govern our own continent in such a way that it will bo developed and populated. If we accomplish the true development of Australia, we shall be doing the best thing we can to assist the British people and other Dominions. Why should we have the right to interfere when any Dominion proposes to enter into a Treaty with another country? The matter does not come within our province at all. So long as we are permitted to work within the limits of our own Constitution, we have nothing to cavil at. </para>
<para>The Prime Minister said that the future policy of Australia should be to defend our own shores from the enemy. I am in accord with that statement. Under existing conditions, it is clearly our duty to take steps to defend Australia. Much as I deplore the present position, I must admit that some form of defence is necessary until we can realize the ideals for which I stand. We must defend Australia from aggression, and I believe that we can best do so with aerial and submarine Forces. I have formed that opinion because of the statements of many great authorities. I have been reading a good deal upon this matter, and though I shall not weary the House with many extracts, I propose, to. quote some opinions given by BrigadierGeneral William Mitchell', in an article on " Air Power versus Sea Power." He states - </para>
<quote>
<para>It is idle to .think that a great war, such as that in Europe, has not made certain changes in defensive arrangements necessary. The most radical change in this respect, has been the injection of an entirely new force - never before used in war - .for which there is no precedent, no organization, no material, and no tactical system. The new element in warfare was the airplane with its crew, its armament its branches of the service - pursuit, bombardment, and attack - the new industries .that have had to be created for its upkeep. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">Later in his article he states - </para>
<quote>
<para>The development of airplanes since the war has been even greater than during the war. Their radius of action, their capacity for carrying bombs, cannon, and other weapons has been magnified tremendously since 1918. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">Further on he remarks - </para>
<quote>
<para>Since the war we have airplanes with a great radius of action that are able to carry bombs weighing a ton or more; and in the solution of our national defence problems, which charges an Air Service with .the attack of hostile shipping, it has .been necessary to study the relative effect of bombs, torpedoes, and cannon against shipping. To begin with, an airplane, always 'has the power of initiative over a vessel on the water because its speed is four or five times as great. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">Those remarks come from a great authority on air power. The article continues - </para>
<quote>
<para>As to hitting a moving target - particularly a vessel on the water, many people think that the motion makes hitting more difficult. The contrary, however, is the case, because the . difficulty of hitting an object by aerial bombardment is a question of the relative speed of the target and the plane. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">Brigadier-General Mitchell also says - </para>
<quote>
<para>The manoeuvring of a vessel on ; the surface, of the water is so slow as compared with the manoeuvring of an airplane that we believe it i3 practically negligible. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">He adds - </para>
<quote>
<para>On land it is difficult to find the concealed anti-aircraft batteries. On the water these ire contained on the decks of sea craft. We, therefore, believe that our percentage of hits against' shipping would be extremely high as compared to hits on objects on land - particularly because we can attack over the sea at very low altitudes without inordinate loss. Next, we must consider the effect that air projectiles will have against shipping. In this connexion, we can dismiss very .quickly the question of destruction of torpedo-boat destroyers, lightlyarmoured cruisers, and supply ships. They can be destroyed, without question, by very small air projectiles. If a Fleet is deprived of its auxiliaries - such, as torpedo-boat^ destroyers and light? cruisers of various _ kinds., together with its supply vessels - the ability of a battleship to exist will be , very much diminished. In other words, it will he decisive without even destroying the 'battleship. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">The writer gives an example in his article of what can be done to battleships by aeroplanes. He points out that an aeroplane can destroy or damage a battleship with very little trouble. He also deals in 'an interesting way with comparative costs. He says - </para>
<quote>
<para>A modern battleship costs over 540,000,000; a bombardment aeroplane costs 840,000. Therefore, 1,000 can be built for the cost of one battleship. The projectile from, 'say, a 16-inch cannon costs about $2,000. The gun has a life of less than 200 shots, and at 40,000 yards - or 18 milescan only make about 2 per cent, of hits. Consequently it will only hit twice with .a projectile much more inefficient than are those from an airplane. An airplane has the same percentage of accuracy anywhere within its flying distance, and its life is not measured by the number of bombs it drops, but by the life of the motor. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">Many cither authorities could be quoted who agree that in future warfare the most effective arms of defence . will be the air and submarine forces. Seeing that under existing circumstances we" must defend Australia, we should devote a great deal of attention to these . two defences. We are often told that Australia will be unable to defend her 12,000 miles of coast line in the event of war. My opinion is that Australia can defend herself against any foe who may come here. I am firmly convinced of that. Very few countries knew, until the recent war, what the Australians were worth. Our. men have proved their metal, however, and I believe that if an attacking force were to come to this country, every man capable of shouldering a rifle would be ready to do so. There need be no fear that Australia could not defend herself. The Prime Minister quoted some figures which showed that very heavy expense had been incurred, and' was still necessary on the military side of our defence system. The time has arrived when we should consider whether our defence should not bc re-organized. The military is not the principal arm of defence in these, days. Consequently we are . not justified in continuing to expend on it the large amounts that have been spent in the past. More attention should be devoted to strengthening our aerial and submarine forces. If we had an adequate air force we could send it out 500 miles beyond our shores to meet an oncoming foe. Men could. always be obtained for military operations. In case of an attack every able-bodied man in the country would take his place in the ranks. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1736</page.no>
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<name.id>KFA</name.id>
<electorate>RICHMOND, NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>CP</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">GREEN, Roland</name>
<name role="display">Mr R GREEN</name>
</talker>
<para>- Does the honorable member say that it is unnecessary to train men? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
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<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1736</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JXA</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CHARLTON, Matthew</name>
<name role="display">Mr CHARLTON</name>
</talker>
<para>- We have sufficient trained men in Australia to meet any emergency . Thousands of men who went to the war are still available. The compulsory training methods that Australia had adopted previous to the war proved to be of very little use. The war was fought upon lines entirely ' different from those which had been anticipated. It was a trench war. Our men adapted themselves to the conditions, and they - would adapt themselves again if necessity arose for them to fight within Australia. With proper aerial and .submarine forces we should be able to keep the enemy out of Australia. Personally I do not believe we are in danger of any attack. I do not think there is any danger in the Pacific. Japan has given assurances on many occasions that she desires to keep the peace, and that she will go a long way to maintain peace. The statement is made sometimes that Japan must find room for her teeming millions. There is ample room in 'Manchuria for Japan's millions. The Prime Minister told us that our expenditure for defence purposes in 1913-14 was as follows: - Army, £2,765,000; Navy,/ £1,987,000, or a total of £4,752,000. For 1922-23 the figures were: Army and Air, £2,559,000; Navy, £2,295,000 ; or a total of £4,854,000. Therefore, we are expending £102,000 a year more on defence to-day than we were spending prior to the war. When we consider that we have to pay £20,000,000 every year for interest on our, war debt and for other war charges, we are compelled to question whether we should continue to . incur such a large expense on defence preparations. Our position in that respect merits the very close consideration of every member of the House. I contend that the time has arrived when a thorough investigation should be made to ascertain whether our military expenditure is justifiable, or whether we should not reduce expenditure in that direction with a view to strengthening our aerial and submarine forces. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<para>Attention should also be given to the possibilities of civil aviation. I direct the attention of honorable members to some remarks on this subject by Captain Wedgewood Benn, a very high authority. He states, in an article published in the <inline font-style="italic">English Review,</inline> in March, 1923 - </para>
<quote>
<para>The importance of air as our first line of defence was established 'in the war, and as early as 1919 the Ministry of Reconstruction . published a pamphlet on aerial transport, which summed up the matter in the following three propositions : - </para>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>The maintenance of an air force, backed by a strong commercial air fleet, is as vital to the safety and prosperity of the British Empire as the maintenance of a strong navy and a strong mercantile marine. </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>The air craft industry must be kept, vigorous in order to respond to any possible war emergency of the future. </para>
</item>
<item label="3.">
<para>The development of civil aerial transport services will not at present be sufficient to keep the industry alive unless it receives substantial support from the State. </para>
</item>
</list>
<para>These -propositions are incontrovertible. Let us consider their military aspect. What is meant by the "maintenance of- an air force"? It is to be observed that with the war lesson fresh in the mind, nobody spoke of naval and military wings. It was " an air force," and the most important opinion favours continued unity. This unity was forced on us by the circumstances of the war. We learnt at last the need for an independent air force, which at the end of the conflict was only at the beginning of its operations. Without doubt, in any future war it will play a still greater part. The very demand for what is called a home defence force proves this. For a defence force is nothing but a striking force, able, in case of danger, to search out and destroy the enemy's centres of activity, whether aerial, naval, military, or munitions. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">Those are noteworthy statements. I could give other quotations, but I do not wish to weary honorable members. For the most effective defence of Australia I submit that we must look to our aerial and submarine craft. </para>
<para>The Prime Minister, in his speech, said that he was favorable to Australia assisting the British Empire in connexion with the establishment of a naval base at Singapore. I am emphatically unfavorable to Australia taking any part in the establish ment of this naval base. I see no justification for departing from the policy we have observed in the past in regard to defence matters. We have never previously agreed to assist Great Britain in defence preparations outside Australia. The load of debt we have to carry now is -quite heavy enough, and I do not feel that it is our duty to add to the, burden in the way suggested. A recent debate in the House of Commons showed that experts and leading men at Home are opposed to the scheme. There are some who say that a base is necessary at Singapore in order to conserve Imperial interests,- in the Pacific. And, while the Japanese representative in" Great Britain assures the Imperial Government that his Government takes no umbrage at the establishment of the* base, there are Japanese press opinions in direct opposition to it, on the ground that it is a provision against eventualities connected with Japan. In my opinion, we ought not to thus expend money outside Australia, for' we have quite enough to do to see to the defence of our own country. Australia represents about one-third of the Empire, and if we devote ourselves to defending that one-third, we are doing all that can be expected. </para>
<para>The ninth subject on the agenda is* the publicity to be permitted with respect to communications between the several Governments of ,the' British .Empire, and in particular, communications between His Majesty's Government and the Governments of Dominions. The fullest publicity should be given to all Imperial affairs, so that we here may know exactly what is being done, and with what intentions. There is no reason- to keep anything from the knowledge of Parliament; it is such reticence1 that has caused trouble in the past, and, if continued, will doubtless cause trouble in the future. </para>
<para>On the agenda for the Economic Conference there are only one or two matters of outstanding importance. The. first is that of oversea settlement, and . the progress made since 1921 with the policy of State-aided Empire settlement and plans for the future, especially as regards the method of improving the selection and training of intending settlers before migration, and their reception, training, and distribution on arrival. I think the three points may be discussed together. </para>
<para class="block">The subject of immigration is, of course, a most important one, and I am only sorry that Australia has not as yet adopted any proper policy. It is not fair to bring people here in thousands every year, in order to settle the country and increase population, unless provision is made for them before their arrival. I have no desire to quote newspaper extracts on the subject. I know that the Prime. Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce)</inline> has no fancy for such authorities. Only this week, however, . we read of men who, after being brought out to Western Australia, where it is claimed there is the best system of settlement in the Commonwealth, were so dissatisfied as to seek to return to the Old Country as stowaways. , They were, however, discovered at South Africa, and returned to Australia. Does not such a fact show something wrong somewhere, either on the other side in the matter of selection, or on this side in the matter of providing suitable employment? It is of no use whatever to place inexperienced and untrained men on the land, for it is certain they cannot " make good." We cannot expect a retired British officer., or a miner, or a manufacturing employee to come to Australia and immediately make a success of a country life. When such men are placed on the land they become dissatisfied, and the reports they send to the Old Country do more- harm than all0 the good our advertising can do. The Government's first duty is to see that our own people are employed, for. then, and only then, can we expect to absorb new arrivals in any great number. The solution of a most difficult question would be assisted if large estates not now used to the best advantage were broken up and made "available for settlement. It costs us, I understand, about £1,000. for each man who is brought to this country as an immigrant, and we ought to do our utmost to insure the future of every new arrival, for every failure is a dead loss to this country. Yet there has not been proper provision made for the reception and absorption of new arrivals. It is absolutely wrong for responsible people, when advocating immigration, to make statements which, on analysis, are found to be without any foundation in fact. Such methods only place intending immigrants in a false position. In Great Britain to-day there are 1,500,000 unemployed, and with no hope of work. The bait is held out to them that if they come to Australia they will probably be independent in a few years, and they rush here only to find that they have been deceived. Whatever attitude the Prime Minister may adopt at the Conference, I trust, at least, that before he . endeavours to induce people to come to this country he will be certain that such provision has been made as to hold out to them reasonable hope of success. ^ </para>
<para>The subject of a preferential Tariff is a large and difficult one. Markets must be found for the primary products of this country. What is the good of putting people on the land if there are no markets for their produce ? At present our chief market is overseas, and but for the buoyancy of that market in recent years, Australia would not be- in her present satisfactory financial position. But how long shall we remain in that satisfactory position if we increase our production without -finding more markets? Does the preferential Tariff hold out any hope of expansion? I do. not wish to be misunderstood ou this question. I wish to make it quite clear that I am in favour of a preferential Tariff. I have to *ask myself, however, what is the position of Great Britain - what is the position of the public men of Great Britain when they are called upon to deal with this question. There are millions on the verge of starvation in the Old Country, and employment in manufactures there depends on foreign markets. How far can the British public men, and the people of Britain generally, go along the preferential Tariff road without danger of intensifying her already deplorable position? We, in Australia, are at a great disadvantage as compared with other producing countries nearer to the Homeland. The standard of living and social conditions generally are much higher here than in those other countries, and, as a consequence, our produce is probably the dearer. It is almost an axiom with the British people that the products they require must be bought at the cheapest possible rates; and, if a preferential Tariff has the effect of increasing prices, its advocates in Great Britain will be placed in a very difficult .position. . <inline font-style="italic">[Extension {/ranted.] '</inline> This is undoubtedly a most difficult problem, and worthyof our most serious consideration. My (own opinion is that, in the future, Australian produce will have to seek for markets outside Great Britain - that we shall have to foster trade relations with other countries as our only hope of success. People make a great mistake who think that the whole economic problem can be solved by simply increasing our population. If we bring immigrants here to produce, we must find markets for their products, or the increased population will be of no advantage to us. As a matter of fact, every new arrival should become a wealth producer by his labour, and if that labour is not utilized his presence here is simply an expense. </para>
<para>What is the present position in regard to preference? The Prime Minister told us that in 1921 Britain gave Australia a preference of £1,160,000, and that in the same year Australia gave Great Britain a preference of £8,750,000 on £68,000,000 worth of imports. It will be seen that there is a vast difference between what we give to Britain and what Britain gives to us. I do not say that in some respects the position may not be altered, and the Conference may find some means to alter it; but, in view of present conditions, do not let us expect too much from Great Britain. We shall have to look elsewhere for trade for Australia., and the Government will do well to send a representative to the countries of the East. Only recently I was very disappointed to find that the British Government had given large contracts for meat to the Argentine and other countries to the exclusion of Australia, but, as I have already suggested, we must realize the difficulties of the public men of Britain. I have not the slightest doubt that they would be as pleased to place contracts with Australia as Australia would be to fulfil them; but the cost, particularly in relation to retail prices, is a great difficulty. I am quite in favour of Empire preference, and I believe the Prime Minister will do his very best to place in Empire markets as many of the products of Australia as possible. But I warn honorable members that we cannot expect too much in this connexion in view of the circumstances prevailing inGreat Britain, and in order to promotesettlement in our own country I think we should be looking elsewhere, as well as to Great Britain. </para>
<para>The fifth subject listed for discussion at the Economic Conference is - </para>
<quote>
<para>State enterprises. -Proposal to set Stateowned or controlled economic enterprises on the same footing as private enterprises as regards taxation, and (in the case of commercial shipping in normal times), as regards shipowners' liability. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">That, it appears to me, is a question which has been brought up in this House. The Prime Minister said that he did not know anything about this subject, but whenI saw it first I thought the right honorable gentleman was responsible for its appearance on the agenda. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1739</page.no>
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<name.id>F4B</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">BRUCE, Stanley</name>
<name role="display">Mr Bruce</name>
</talker>
<para>- No, I had nothing to do with its appearance there. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1739</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JXA</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CHARLTON, Matthew</name>
<name role="display">Mr CHARLTON</name>
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<para>- I, of course, accept the right honorable gentleman's assurance, but it is evident that some other persons, following the same train of thought as the Prime Minister, desire that State enterprises should be placed on the same footing as private enterprises. I do not think that it will be contended that the State-owned railways, the post-offices, and other State organizations should in every way be placed in the same position as privately-conducted concerns. I think we should consider in this matter whether the Economic Conference would be justi- fied in interfering in the way suggested with the management of the affairs of a State. </para>
</talk.start>
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<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1739</page.no>
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<name role="metadata">BRUCE, Stanley</name>
<name role="display">Mr Bruce</name>
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<para>- This subject has no relation to such interference. It merely proposes the consideration of how each of the countries of the Empire should treat the State instrumentalities of other countries. For instance, how we should treat in our ports a shipping line run by another Dominion. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1739</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JXA</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CHARLTON, Matthew</name>
<name role="display">Mr CHARLTON</name>
</talker>
<para>- The other day the Prime Minister said that he did not know much about this subject. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1739</page.no>
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<name.id>F4B</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">BRUCE, Stanley</name>
<name role="display">Mr Bruce</name>
</talker>
<para>- I thought that view of it was obvious. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1739</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JXA</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CHARLTON, Matthew</name>
<name role="display">Mr CHARLTON</name>
</talker>
<para>- It was not obvious to me, but I am prepared to accept the Prime Minister's statement in regard to it. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<para>Very little need be said concerning the other matters included in the agenda of the Conference, as they can be discussed at length, if necessary, on the Prime Minister's return. </para>
<para>I want to say that I regard the omission from the agenda of the Imperial Conference of any reference to world's affairs to-day as a very serious matter. I believe, as I said at the commencement of my speech, that the first matter which the Conference should have listed for consideration was an endeavour to bring the nations of the world together, or to extend the functions of' the League of Nations, and put it on a better footing than it occupies to-day, in order to see what might be done to secure international disarmament. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1740</page.no>
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<name.id>F4B</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">BRUCE, Stanley</name>
<name role="display">Mr Bruce</name>
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<para>-That question will obviously have to be discussed on the subjects of both foreign relations and defence. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
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<page.no>1740</page.no>
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<name role="metadata">CHARLTON, Matthew</name>
<name role="display">Mr CHARLTON</name>
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<para>- That may be, but, in my opinion, it should have occupied the most prominent position on the list of subjects to be discussed at the Conference. The great object of the Conference should be to promote the world's peace, and arrest the mad competition in armaments. Prom what I have heard, inside and outside of this Chamber, and from what I can gather from the press, the opinion is being fostered that we ought to look out for ourselves in case of future wars. There are two paths along which the nations may travel at the present moment. One is the path of peace. I suggest that everything possible should be done to prevent a recurrence of the experience of recent years, and, to that end, we shall oppose the adoption of a policy of self-expansion in military affairs. Every effort should be made to secure peace among the peoples of the world. Let us realize that that is one of the chief objects of our existence. We should treat other peoples as brothers and sisters, whilst maintaining the right to manage our internal affairs, instead of always considering whether we are prepared to meet an attack from this or that nation. The path which the world is travelling to-day is the path that leads to future wars. The nations have adopted the policy of preparation in readiness for war. We are told solemnly that to be prepared for war is to prevent war. I remember reading an article on this subject which appeared in the <inline font-style="italic">Age</inline> of 6th </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<para class="block">April, 1923, with which I agree and which is so much to the point that I shall make some extracts from it here. The article says - " If you want to live at peace be prepared for war." There is a suggestion of truth in the conventional and oracular opinion, but probably it is more than counter-balanced by the falsehood. Acting according to a philosophy of this kind peoples load themselves with heavier and still heavier armaments. Mutual suspicion grows into estrangement. A large class in each community, who are employed in preparations for war, . and who think in the terms of war, become an influence in hastening the calamity against which they are an insurance. Is it possible for a man, after the awful experience through which the world has passed since 1914, to contemplate the possibility of another greatwar and yet retain his regard for human reason? All the Great Powers express their anxiety for a prolonged peace, and, with one or two exceptions, each of them is distrustfully arming as if the world were on the eve of Armageddon. </para>
<para class="block">The article further says - </para>
<quote>
<para>Could the Prime Minister force the national disarmament view before the Imperial Conference and be the means of turning that gathering towards a general disarmament project, he would earn the cordial approval of his country and do a service to humanity. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">I say "Amen" to that. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1740</page.no>
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<name.id>KV8</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">STEWART, Percy</name>
<name role="display">Mr Stewart</name>
</talker>
<para>- We all say " Amen " to that. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
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<page.no>1740</page.no>
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<name role="metadata">CHARLTON, Matthew</name>
<name role="display">Mr CHARLTON</name>
</talker>
<para>- The article continues - </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<quote>
<para>Those who, at this time, persistently sound the alarm bell, and shout for still more effective means of killing, might as well join in and give a serious meaning to the old musichall chorus - " Let's all go mad." </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">That is the position to-day, and I could not state it as well as it is stated in that article. But we are following the path that leads to the very thing which this article condemns. We ought to think seriously where we are going. I hope that the Prime Minister will use all the influence at his command, when the Imperial Conference meets, to make the first question dealt with the consideration of means to increase the powers of the League of Nations, or to bring the nations together in some way with a view to discussing the subject of international disarmament, instead of pursuing the course which unfortunately is being pursued in most countries of the world to-day. Every country I know of is increasing its armaments and spending money which it can ill afford to spend, inways which can result in good to no one. The time has certainly arrived when some effort should he made to stop this suicidal policy. I say, with all the force I can command, that I regret the feeling in regard to this question which is exhibited throughout the world at the present time. I do hope that the Prime Minister, at the Imperial Conference, will put first and foremost the future peace of the world. </para>
<para>I should like to say, in conclusion, that there is no uncertainty as to the attitude of the Labour party on this question', as it affects not only the Empire, but the whole world. The Labour party has no desire that its views on the subject shall be hidden. It desires, on the contrary, that those views shall be made public; and I shall conclude my speech with this statement of those views: - The Labour party's policy is to promote world peace, and, consistently with Australia's good-will to her kindred overseas, declares its readiness to take full responsibility for Australia's defence, but is opposed to the raising of Forces for service outside the Commonwealth, or promise of participation in any future overseas war, except by a decision of the people. </para>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1741</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KMU</name.id>
<electorate>Wentworth</electorate>
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">MARKS, Walter</name>
<name role="display">Mr MARKS</name>
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<para>.- Before saying what I wish to say on the motion, I should like to deal with one or two matters mentioned by the Leader of the Opposition <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Charlton).</inline> With many of the honorable gentleman's statements I entirely agree ; but I do not agree with many of the deductions he has drawn. He has dealt at some length with air forces as a means of defence. I do not wish to traverse that ground again, because I did so at great length in my speech on the second reading of the Ail Defence Bill. So far as he went, the honorable gentleman was correct, but he missed the vital point, and that is the necessity for the protection of our trade. According, not to my opinion only, but to that of many experts on the subject, an air force cannot be looked to as a first line of defence for at least one hundred years, because it cannot protect the trade of the Empire across the oceans, and the trade of the Empire is its life's blood. That trade has to be carried on in surface ships, and unless these are protected by surface ships, they will be sunk by submarines. Until air forces are able to protect our trade across thousands of miles of ocean, they cannot be regarded as a first line of defence. The Leader of the Opposition referred to the sinking of a battleship by an aeroplane. It is quite correct that a battleship wassunk by an aeroplane. But what sort of a manoeuvre was it? An air force went up over a battleship, which had no one on board, and was controlled by wireless, and it sunk the battleship. That was a very different position from that which would have to be met in time "of war, when a battleship would have on board a very strong armament of anti-air-force guns. Dropping bombs upon a defenceless battleship is a very different matter from attacking one that is sending shells into the air against the force attacking it. The difference is so great that the test that has been referred to is really no test at all. </para>
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<para>The honorable gentleman was perfectly, right in his references to the desire for international peace. We all entirely agree with him. We are all sick of war, and no one desires to see any more of it. But that is not to say that we should wander around, like defenceless children, to have our. throats cut. When I was in Japan, the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth advocated the holding of a Pan-Pacific Conference. I went into the matter with leading men in Japan, and they thought it was a very good idea. They, including the Prime Minister, Admiral. Baron Kato, naturally would not express an opinion on details, because they had not heard officially from our Prime Minister on the matter. My own opinion is that we cannot hold too many of these Conferences, because, when people get around a table they come to know one another. Knowing one another would prevent many of the troubles that at present arise. When I talked to people in Japan I learned their troubles and differences of opinion, and how it might be possible to overcome them. The Leader of the Opposition has said that Australia can well defend itself. We have only to read General <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Harry</inline> Chauvel's report to learn that, so far as regards our Military Forces, he is of opinion that our position is practically helpless. I can speak with some authority on naval -matters. Before informing the House, however, of the actual position in relation to* the Japanese Navy, I. desire to address myself to one or two matters which appear on the agenda. The first question with which I desire to deal is that of the desirability of having an Australian Minister in London. In some ' respects that would be a good thing; in other respects it would not. It would be difficult to induce a Minister to go to England unless he were rendered immune from the worry of contesting elections. * It would not be advisable to have a Minister in London concurrently with the presence there of a High Commissioner. If a. Trade Commissioner were appointed, perhaps the presence of a Minister in London would be of very great value to -the Commonwealth. A very big question is opened up in considering whether we should bo consulted by the Home Government, and should know what is happening because of the possibility of our being dragged into war. I agree with the statement of the Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce)</inline> that, no matter what is done, if the Empire is engaged in war, we also must take a part, because we are absolutely isolated and are not in a position' to protect ourselves. A Minister resident in London might help us to se§ eye to eye with the Home Government, and avoid a repetition of that which happened recently. I was heartily in accord with the action taken by the ex-Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. W. M. Hughes)</inline> and the Government of which the present Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce)</inline> was a member. At the same time I contend that we ought to have been informed of what was happening. Had we had a resident Minister in London at that time he probably would, have been of very great assistance to us. " Intra-Empire Trade" was a great slogan in the days of Joseph Chamberlain, and the same position exists to-day. We need, however, to be very careful. The Prime Minister said that we were not issuing a threat in informing the British Government that we desired te know where we stand, because it might be possible for us to enter into trade arrangements with other countries. That is perfectly correct. There are hundreds of millions of people' who are waiting for our goods, and care must be exercised to insure that by entering into an Intra- </para>
<quote>
<para class="block">Empire trade arrangement we shall not be depriving ourselves of an enormous- . trade with countries- to- the- north of <inline font-style="italic">tuta.</inline> I have already informed honorable members of the position with regard to the meat trade there.- Millions of pounds are waiting to be collected by Australia when she gets that trade. The trade of Japan with America in cotton represents- £60,000,000 per annum. A large trade can be done in suitings, because the men of the East are beginning to- wear European clothes, and the women wear silk, cotton, and woollen goods under their kimonos. In all those branches of trade there are millions of pounds- to- be picked up. Australia must send her- agents tocapture that trade, as is now being done by the meat people. If we bind ourselves too closely in an Intra-Empire trade arrangement we may lose the trade that can be done with the enormous populations in the countries to the north of Australia. In tinned goods also, an enormous trade awaits us. The ' labelling, conditioning, packing, and grading of our goods at the present time is most imperfect, and must be seen to if we are to capture that trade and keep it. </para>
<para>With regard to defence, I shall read to honorable members an extract" from .a speech made by Earl Haig at the British Empire Service League in London on 16th July last. He, said - </para>
<para>We have seen what unpreparedness cost this generation. We have seen the sin . of unpreparedness visited on our children. The fact was that in 1914 the Empire was unorganized, even in skeleton form, for war. The Defence League must press f or, a defensive organization. The Leader of the Opposition <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Charlton)</inline> said that practically nothing had come out of the Washington Conference. That is not so. Up to the time of the Washington Conference 44 per cent, of Japan's national income was spent on army and navy defence. Directly the Washington Conference decisions were made known they were gladly welcomed by the whole of the people of Japan, because they realized that no longer would 44 per cent, of their national income be spent on defence, but would be expended in other directions, such as education. That has given rise in Japan to a strong anti-military movement. Throughout Japan to-day there is an intense dislike of any expansion in the. navy or the army. "When I was in Tokio a class was established at Waseda University for the study of military science. On the night that the class opened' it was packed. Five minutes after the class started a riot occurred, the whole of the furniture was smashed, and many arrests were made. That class has been discontinued. Throughout Japan events like that are happening, and they are causing the ruling classes a good deal of concern. Japan has loyally observed the decisions of the Washington Conference. She immediately made reductions, which in the case of the navy alone amounted to £16,000,000. Compared with her pre-Washington programme, he.r post-Washington programme showed a reduction of thirty-eight ships, totalling 13,385 tons. Six thousand skilled mechanics and labourers in the dockyards were at once discharged, and 12,000 officers and men were marked for discharge. A week ago I saw in the press the statement that 1,600 officers have already left. When I was up there, several admirals and other officers were taking on civilian jobs. Japan immediately suspended the construction of the battleships, <inline font-style="italic">Kaga, Tosa,</inline> and <inline font-style="italic">Akagi.</inline> She partly scrapped the battleships <inline font-style="italic">Settsu</inline> (20,800 tons). <inline font-style="italic">A k</inline> ' (19,800 tons), <inline font-style="italic">Satsuma</inline> (19,350 tons), <inline font-style="italic">Katori</inline> (15,975 tons), <inline font-style="italic">Kashima</inline> (16,400 tons), <inline font-style="italic">Hizen</inline> (12,700 tons), <inline font-style="italic">Mikasa</inline> (15,362 tons); the armoured cruisers <inline font-style="italic">Kurama</inline> (14,620 tons), <inline font-style="italic">Ibuki</inline> (14,620 tons), and <inline font-style="italic">Ikoma</inline> (13,770 tons); and the battle-cruisers <inline font-style="italic">Kirishima</inline> (27,500 tons), and <inline font-style="italic">Asahi.</inline> The light cruiser <inline font-style="italic">Fuji</inline> has had its armour and armament removed, and is being used as a special service ship. In addition to the scrapping of those thirteen ships, amounting to about 200,000 tons, Japan immediately abolished several naval stations, and established minor stations in their place at Maidyuru, Port Arthur, Chinai, Take'skaki, and Yinghung. She reduced her army by one-fifth; to 1,800 officers, 2,000 non-commissioned officers, and 54,000 men. The- battleships <inline font-style="italic">Kaga</inline> and <inline font-style="italic">Tosaeach</inline> of 40,600 tons, so far as I have been able to ascertain, are to be sunk as targets. The battleship <inline font-style="italic">Amagi,</inline> 40,000 tons, is to be turned into an air-craft carrier. Work has been suspended on the battle-cruisers <inline font-style="italic">Takao</inline> and <inline font-style="italic">Atago,</inline> which will now be scrapped. The <inline font-style="italic">Akagi</inline> will not be completed as a battle-cruiser, but will be converted into an air-craft carrier. </para>
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<para>- Japan having scrapped all these vessels, where does the honorable member suggest that the danger to Australia lies? </para>
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<para>- I shall deal with that later. Japan will have two 40,000-to'n air-plane carriers, each carrying about fifty planes, - with an unobstructed deck space of 800 feet on which to take off and land. «They will have a speed of 33 knots, and will carry 8-in? guns. We have not in Australia one vessel mounting 8-in. guns except the <inline font-style="italic">Australia,</inline> which is to be scrapped. When she has been dealt with we shall not have an 8-inch gun" in Australia. If we think that Japan is our potential enemy, we have to recognise that one of these ships, and one only, could come down to Australia unattended, because we have not a submarine to sink her, no 8-inch guns with which to offer her battle, and no air force that could do her much damage against her antiaerial defences. ' Let me say a word or two about Japan's new programme. I want it to be clearly understood that; J/ am not guilty of any breach of Japanese'hospitality because, when I was shown round the Japanese naval works by the Japanese admirals and other officers, I told them I would rather not see anything' that was. confidential. They asked me why. . I replied that if I saw anything that was too confidential, I would not be able to talk about it when I returned to Australia. They thought that was strange, but I said it, and I have every right therefore to tell my countrymen what I saw. I saw Japan's great dock- . yards at Yokosuka, Kobe, and Nagasaki. The latter extends about l£ miles, along, the water front. I saw seven battle-* ship slipways, and as far as I could discover work went on day and night. It was similar in the yards at Kobe and Yokosuka. As far as I could ascertain Japan will have about four new cruisers of 10,000 tons each - that is the Washington standard- and four of 7,000 tons, making a total tonnage of 68,000. She will have twenty-four destroyers of the first class, totalling 33,600 tons, and about twenty-two submarines of a tonnage of 28,166. She. has two complete sea:, going battle fleets intact in commission, comprising seven capital ships and four battle cruisers, fifteen new cruisers, and about seventy submarines. About forty of the submarines will be sea-going vessels, in many cases with a radius of over 12,000 miles. They will be able to make voyages of that length from their home port and back without replenishment. Other submarines will be of a cruiser and mine-laying type. In addition to this fleet, which is largely oil driven, Japan has four new oil carriers to convey oil to the fleet. There is no natural oil in Japan, and that is a great troubleto the nation, but the Government hopes to accumulate a store of about 2,000,000 gallons of oil in the next three years. Articles have appeared in the Sydney <inline font-style="italic">Sun,</inline> the Melbourne <inline font-style="italic">Pictorial Sun,</inline> and the Melbourne <inline font-style="italic">Evening Sun</inline> on the Japanese question. Many of them have appeared under the <inline font-style="italic">nom de plume</inline> of" X." I have been asked by members of the Ministry, by members of this House, and by members of the public, whether I wrote those articles. I do not know who "X" is, nor have I the remotest idea. In many of his points he is right; in many wrong. In considering what Australia should do, we must look at the situation in the Pacific. I have spoken of the Japanese side, but I cannot deal fully with it without touching upon the question of a White Australia, which I desire to do when the Northern Territory Crown Lands Bill comes up for consideration. The White Australia policy has an important bearing on the question. It might be asked why Japan has this great fleet. To answer that question many things have to be considered. She has her troubles withRussia and with China, which is twenty-four hours from her shores, and she also considers America an enigma. She never knows what America will do next. There was that country's attitude at the Versailles and Washington Conferences, and her refusal to join the League of Nations; Her Monroe doctrine worries Japan, because it means that, " Outside our front door of America we shall not interfere with anything on the other side of the world." Japan asks America, quite rightly, "Why have you fortified the Philippines so strongly? Why do you keep thousands oftroops there, with a fort at the entrance to the harbor, equipped with 16-inch guns and mammoth searchlights? Why have you a great air force and a submarine force there? Why are those things on my door mat? Is this part of your Monroe doctrine?" Japan means to run no risk, and I honestly think that she is quite right in view of the state of the world and the state of the Pacific to-day, in strengthening herself, as we should do. What is the American side of the question? Naturally the Japanese attitude engenders in her some restlessness, and she is looking after herself also. At Manila, at Hawaii, and Honolulu she has great submarine and sea forces, and her battleship fleets have been brought round to the Pacific slope. The following cutting is taken from a newspaper: - </para>
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<para>The United, States Government has decided to maintain at full efficiency during the next financial year a minimum naval force at sea of eighteen first line battleships, fourteen cruisers, and eighty-four submarines. </para>
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<para class="block">What is it all for? I cannot tell. I do not know. When I was in Tokio news was received there of the debate which took place in the House of Commons when over £11,000,000 was voted for the Singapore base. As I had spoken at a luncheon of the Pan-Pacific Club, at the Imperial Hotel, at which all the leading men were present, I was asked for my opinion. Before stating what that opinion was, I shall define the Japanese attitude. With the exception of two newspapers, there was very little comment in the Japanese press, and it was not unfavorable to the project. It was recognised that the question had been raised by the British Admiralty at the Washington Conference, where a line was drawn from Hong Kong, and the dictum was laid down that "You must not do anything to the east of that, but to the west is no concern of ours." Singapore was expressly mentioned at the Washington Conference. Japan knew that the creation of a base there was not abreach of faith by the British Government. My views were sought, and were published at great length in the Japanese press. It is strange that I used the same words as were uttered in London the next day by the First Lord of the Admiralty. The First Lord of the Admiralty said - </para>
<quote>
<para>No longer should the British Empire, with its great possessions in the Pacific, rely on -a friendly power for the defence of the Pacific and her interests there. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">It is quite true that the peace of the Pacific in the past has been maintained by the strength of the Japanese Navy, plus the unseen power of the British Navy; and the First Lord of the Admiralty rightly said that we should no longer be dependent upon a late Ally and a friendly Power for our defence there. Hence, Singapore. A dock there is absolutely essential for the guardianship of the Empire. Colonel Amery, in a speech, said - </para>
<quote>
<para>If they were contemplating strained relations with Japan they would be proceeding in this matter in a much more strenuous and urgent fashion. </para>
<para>They were not in a position to-day, and would not be for many years, to put a battle fleet into the Pacific, or even as far as Singapore. In all those waters, with such immense consequences to this country from a strategical point of view, and for the defence of the Empire, we were absolutely helpless and reliant on the good-will of a friendly and former Allied power. No self-respecting power could afford to be dependent upon another power for its security and for its very existence. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">He also pointed out that this was not a new idea of the British Government, but was considered at the Imperial Conference of 1911, when it was decided that the composite fleet of the Empire should look to Singapore as its main rallying ground and centre. The matter was investigated and re-investigated for more than three years by the British Admiralty, the Committee of the Imperial Conference, and more recently by the Cabinet, since the new Government came into power. Colonel Amery then dealt with the necessity for, oil stations in this part of the world. Although the Singapore base will be a great help to Australia, in my opinion it is, put there mainly to guard against trouble in India. Between India and Australia it is obviously very necessary, and should, in ordinary circumstances, save Australia a good deal of expenditure on naval defence. I say, advisedly, to the people of Australia, that if they spent £20,000,000 a year on their navy solely as a means of defence against Japan, they might as well throw it into the ocean. Even with that amount of expenditure we would have no hope, because we could not build fast enough to catch up with Japan. Japan is an established great naval power to day, and Australia could not live against that mighty power if it attacked us. That leads me to the point. What are we going to do? My visit to Japan confirms the view expressed by me in the House before I left, that all, Australia can do is to provide a unit which will fit into the Royal Navy anywhere, and at any time, and become an efficient part of the whole. </para>
<para class="italic">
<inline font-style="italic">Sitting suspended from 1 to 2.15 p.m.</inline>
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<para>- Another reason for Japan's maintenance of such a great naval force is the generally unsettled state of the world to-day. I have stated why America is an enigma to Japan. A further explanation impressed upon me by Japanese people was that they are unable to reconcile the perpetual cry of the Americans that theirs is "the land of liberty and peace " with the fact that America has waged a war once in every decade during the last 110 years. I think yet another reason why Japan, is maintaining a great sea force is probably that America's colony, the Philippines, is at the very door of Japan. In the Pacific a new factor is about to appear. Notwithstanding the wealth of their possessions in the East, the Dutch are now, for the first time, thinking of placing a naval force of any 'strength in the Pacific. </para>
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<para>What is the position of Australia? According to General Chauvel we have no army. The <inline font-style="italic">personnel</inline> of our navy is perhaps the most efficient of any navy in the world, but our ships, although fairly good, are quite useless in opposition to those of other powers. We have an Air Force of twenty-four planes. We have no anti-aircraft batteries, stationary or mobile. I understand that we "have no more ammunition than would be fired away in three days. We have neither naval nor air bases that count, and, last, but not least, we have no population. The White Australia policy has a vital bearing upon the Pacific question. From what I saw and heard in Japan I do not think that the Japanese people have the slightest intention of attempting to capture Australia. For that there are many reasons. One is the. great love and reverence of Japan for the British Empire, of which she was for many years an Ally, and the absolute reverence of the Japanese people for the British Navy. Apart from that, J apan has no desire to pit her fleet against that of Great Britain and thus precipitate the greatest naval battle that the world has ever seen. ' Let us compare the Japan of to-day with the Japan of half a century ago. . In the last fifty years, mainly in the last thirty years, Japan has emerged from absolute obscurity and become a first-line power. The Japanese Parliament was established as recently as 1890, and it is very interesting to study the subsequent evolution of politics in that- country. In the elections of 1920 only 3,000,000 of a total of over 60,000,000 had the franchise, but that franchise has been extended on three occasions, namely, in 1902, 1909, and 1918, and by the 1918 Act the property qualification was reduced from £1 to 6s. of direct national taxation. That was a great win for the democratic movement, then spreading, and now widespread in Japan. Formerly it was dangerous to mouth the word democracy, but to-day it is freely used in the press and by leading citizens. In my opinion, 'and in that of others who have much more brains than I. have, the people of Japan are rising politically, slowly but surely. This evolution has a direct bearing upon the defence question. I noticed in Japan a great demand for universal suffrage. I learned also of the growth of trade unions. The first trade union was formed about ten years ago, and the industrial movement is making vast strides. The emancipation of women has started. Whereas formerly women were looked down upon, to-day they are to be found at work in offices, railway stations, bookstalls, and hotels; and writing books, and making speeches on the public platform. Japan has undoubtedly awakened. She has imbibed Western civilization to such an extent that she hardly knows where she is. In adopting the benefits of Western civilization, Japan is also experiencing some of the problems incidental to that civilization. They, too, vitally affect the defence question in Australia. Socialism of its worst type and bolshevism are rampant in Japan, and causing great uneasiness. On May Day, great processions were held in Tokio, and police were brought into the city from the provinces. The processions met in Shiba Park, where speeches were made. A conflict with the police occurred, with the result that platforms were broken down and hundreds of arrests were made. </para>
<para class="block">Such conflicts are of fairly frequent occurrence. This ferment among the people is a problem with which the Japanese Government have to grapple; and if Japanese statesmen should ever conceive any aggressive policy towards Australia, they would have to consider the internal dangers in their own country. The finding of outlets for her surplus population is Japan's biggest difficulty. The country consists of a chain of islands 2,000 miles in length, the bulk of the surface spreading over uninhabitable mountains and valleys, creeks, rivers, and canals. Between 60,000,000 and 63,000,000 people are residing on the remaining area. The birth-rate is about 700,000 per annum. In the great commercial city of Osaka, which has a population of 1,250,000, the number of births last year was 90,000. The area of that city is not twice the size of Centennial Park, Sydney. The population of Tokio is 2,500,000, and the number of births during the year was 90,000. </para>
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<para>- What is the death-rate? </para>
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<para>- It is very heavy. There is practically no sewerage in Japan, and as typhoid is very prevalent, the death-rate amongst children is about 25 per cent. What can Japan do with her enormous excess of population? She is trying to solve the problem as well as she can. The number of Japanese people outside Japan in 1917 was 450,000; in 1918, 490,000; and in 1919, 500,000; an average increase of a little under 17,000 per annum. Expatriation at this rate does not go far to' counterbalance the 700,000 births per annum. During the last ten years, the population of Japan has increased 14 per cent., the cultivated land has increased 5 per cent., and the rice production only 10 per cent. Theconsequence is that the Japanese peoplehave to import to-day more than 50 percent, of their food supplies. Where is; the excess population to go? You maysuggest Korea, Manchuria, and Siberia. In the last ten years, 30,000 Japanesehave been sent to those countries; but, in spite of all efforts, they cannot absorbmore, the reason being that the Koreans, the Manchurians, and a certain section of the Siberians work for between 30- and 40 sen, or about 9d. per day, whereas: the daily wage in Japan varies from ls.. to 9s. In the Philippines, there are 7,000 Japanese. Large numbers are migrating to Mexico and the Dutch East Indies, but not in sufficient numbers to counteract the natural increase in 'Japan. The next move is to divert the stream of emigrants to South and Central America. A member of the -Japanese Government informed me that the sending of 600,000 Japanese to Central America would cost the Government £24,000,000. Nevertheless, that 'is, so I believe, to be attempted. The one solution of the population problem in Japan is birth control. On that matter, Baron Ishimoto said, " Apart from whether it is right or wrong, Japan will have to adopt birth control in order to cope with her ever-increasing population. There is no other adequate remedy." Two leaders of British thought Bertram Russel and H. G. Wells - have warned Japan to the same effect. One member of the Japanese Cabinet, discussing the question with me, said, "If we introduce birth control by Statute; and tell a boy and girl about to marry, that if they have more than one child they will go to gaol for ten years, what will the League of Nations, and the world generally, say?" Yet, unless Japan can find some country in which to settle her population, birth control is inevitable. This problem has a bearing on the White Australia policy, and also the naval defence of Australia. I am a great admirer of 'the Japanese people, and I try to take their point of view; but. I have a greater regard for* the country of my birth. I believe in the White Australia policy, and will fight for it, and, if necessary, die for it. Unlike the ostrich, however, I do not hide my head in the sand in order to shut out the dangers that threaten us. According to the <inline font-style="italic">Year-Booh,</inline> the area of Australia is greater than that of the United States of America; it is nearly a quarter of the British Empire ; and it is more than twenty-five times the area of the United Kingdom. In that immense area of Australia there are 5,500,000 people. In Europe, excluding Russia, there are 310,000,000 people. Australia has less than two people to the square mile, and Japan has 376. There were 7,533 people in the Northern Territory in 1911, but according to the last census the number has fallen to 3,867. I found that Australia was very little known- in Japan. The only people who knew anything" about this country were the diplomats and members of the Government. The people generally were in absolute ignorance of Australia. I was faced in argument and in conference with questions which involved our White Australia policy. I ask honorable members to imagine my position. I was called upon to deal with solid argument by people who knew the situation. Three men in particular with whom I had to deal were Professor Matsugo Nagai, Director of the Bureau of Commercial Affairs in the Department of Foreign Affairs, the man who handles the Japanese immigration policy; Admiral Kurooka, of the House of Peers; and <inline font-weight="bold">Dr.</inline> Soyida, ex-president of the Industrial Bank of Japan. They questioned me . about it. Admiral Kurooka said, "You treat the Germans better than you treat the Japanese." As he could give mo no direct instances, and as I was not sure whether we did or not, I gave a flat denial to his statement. The admiral -did not pursue the subject any further. In Professor Matsugo Nagai I had to deal with a man who knew 'the subject thoroughly. He asked me, " Will you lift the restriction?" I replied, " No." He asked, "Why?" I said, "For very many reasons, sir. The White Australia policy is a mandate from the whole of the people of Australia. The Australians desire to govern their country in their own way. They wish to do exactly as the Japanese are doing. The Japanese have a law of exclusion against the Chinese. We also have a law of exclusion. We are running our country in our own way just as you are running your country in your own way." I also said to him, " The rate of wages in Australia is very different from the rate here. Can you blame the Australian workman, who is receiving, and rightly so, much higher wages than are paid here, because he objects to hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of your people coming into his country to work for anything from ls. to 9s. a day?" What could he say ? I raised many other points. He was in no way offended, but he still repeated his question, " Will you lift the restriction?" I still replied, "No." I ask honorable members to realize the position. To me it is as clear as daylight. Japan has an enormous population with nowhere' to go. We have in the Northern Territory over 500,000 square miles of the most fertile land in the world, according to the honorable member for the Northern Territory <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Nelson).</inline> On that land we have only 3,000 people. I say to the people of Australia, to the Motherland, and to our own Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce),</inline> on the eve of his departure for the Old Country, " If you wish to live up to this high and right ideal of a White Australia, for God's sake fill this country with white ( people. Unless you do that, otherpeople will come in." Honorable members may ask whether coloured races really will come. My reply is that unless we fill our country, they are sure to come. If Japan has any hostility whatever to us, it is because of our White Australia policy. That is what may cause trouble. If Japan 'has any idea of taking action, she will" not allow the Singapore dock to be completed within the next five years.- Once that dock is established, Japan will be held in check. Until then she has a . free field, and there is nothing to-day to stop her from taking Hong Kong, Singapore, and Fremantle, and establishing submarine bases, air forces, and other warlike resources there. The House should realize this, and so should the Motherland. We are in danger unless we people our country. If we do not, then we b.ave no argument against others who are in urgent need of land. If the workmen of Australia wish to retain the high wages they now receive they must encourage white people to go into the Northern Territory. I ask honorable members to listen to me while I read one of the finest leading articles on 'this subject that I have ever read. It appeared in the Sydney <inline font-style="italic">Morning Herald</inline> of 13th June. It states - ' </para>
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<para>The articles which we are publishing from London on the international situation in the Pacific must prompt us here in Australia to serious reflection. It is the pleasant dream of some, in Australia particularly, that the world is continually vexed by being confronted with two alternative conditions - either war or (to use a convenient phrase) the <inline font-style="italic">status quo.</inline> In other words, the national Governments have only to decline war and the " <inline font-style="italic">status quo"</inline> remains permanent and smiling; if princes or politicians or capitalists can only be put under restraint, so runs this creed, there need be no war This opinion is, of course, utterly wrong. It is so wrong that while it prevails it will perhaps court war. The causes and the occasions of international friction are no more stable than anything else in this transitory life, and the growing influence upon national Governments of .public opinion - itself notoriously fickle ( and changeable - has .perhaps increased the chance of war more than is currently perceived. Take the case, for instance, of Japan and her relations with Australia. Let us presume , that we are living in a state of some anxiety as to Japanese intentions. We know that there is no shade of a thought of aggression in our own minds, or in the minds of any British people, against Japan. Aggression is not only unthought of; it is impossible. Wherefore it is quite commonly said: "If only Japan would state her intentions clearly, there would be an end to any anxiety. Why cannot Japan do so?" It has been clear for some time that Japan's immediate objective is expansion of influence on the mainland of Asia. Why, then, it is asked, cannot Australia (or the Empire) and Japan come tb understand each other without reserve. But the position is by no means so simple, as can be shown by at least two considerations. One -is that a third and complex factor is American presence in "this field; and the other is in the Japanese view of our own policy. Let us look at the situa- <inline font-style="italic">t</inline> tion from the Japanese point of view. It is not necessarily an aggressive one; indeed, it can be argued as a state also of considerable uneasiness - especially in the matter of America. The United States, parading aloofness from " international entanglements," puzzles the Japanese quite as much as Japan puzzles us. America has in the past few years done some extraordinary things. Protesting " no entanglements " she has renounced the League Covenant, yet exhibited the utmostenthusiasm for the Washington pact, and even an' extension of it. Can any non-American observer reconcile this divergence in principle? Further, she - the country of " the bird of freedom " - 'has suddenly shut down iron gates upon all immigration, and has created the material for a dozen international complications by her ruthless prohibition laws. The springing up of the huge smuggling campaign on the American coasts and the arming of American patrol boats may - like the immigration embargo be declared a purely domestic affair, but it is, by spread of reaction, very much more, as any observer can see. </para>
<para>While these American administrative acts may not directly and now concern Japan, the point is that what does arouse Japanese disquiet rs the international attitude - utterly at variance with expressed tenets of peace, compromise, and freedom for all - of a greatlibertyprofessing Power. Even British people, who are supposed to be in a position best to understand American Democracy, confess frankly that they have not the vaguest notion what America may do next. How, then, must </para>
<para class="block">Japan view the moves of this neighbour, knowing only that American feelings to herself are anything but amiable and restful? International relations in the North Pacific, and especially in exploitation of China, admit, of course, of cogent argument on either side. We do not pretend that Japan is the only anxious party, or thatshe stands in a white sheet. But what we in Australia must recogniseis that we are in the presence of a possible conflict temporarily subdued, which is always liable to break out in open quarrel, and that to ascribe the friction to " capitalistic greed" or the malevolence of diplomatists is to remain wilfully blind. The ruling outlook of Pacific nations to-day is the uncertainty, the mistrust, of each other's intentions. Narrowing down the scrutiny to. such uncertainty as prevails between Australia (an outpost of the British Empire) and Japan, we have stated the general Australian view; and now what is Japan's? Australians say - "If only Japan would indicate her peaceful intentions?" But do we not ourselves contribute to our state of anxiety? We have set up the policy of a White Australia. Good; the Japanese have accepted it; they have officially recognised it. But what does it mean ? We may be perfectly sure that it does not mean to Japan or any other foreign people - probably not even to our own people in Great Britain - that the present condition of Australia, largely unpopulated and undeveloped, is approved as permanent and sufficient. Japan, confronted with the need (in her own eyes, at any rate) to find room for her surplus people, cannot be condemned as satanic because she should say, as she may some day, " We admit and respect Australia's right to make herself a white country; but wo do not and never have admitted the right of Australia to keep herself empty and unused." Our responsibility is plain. We must carry out our policy and develop our resources with white people. If we cannot accept this Japanese attitude, then we are living in a world of self-delusion. </para>
<para class="block">I agree with every word of that. Unless we can bring about 1,000,000 people into the Northern Territory within the next five years we shall be up against a very difficult proposition. We must populate that country. I noticed that Colonel Amery, First Lord of the British Admiralty, said recently that Great Britain had a population of about 60,000,000 people, and she could not employ or feed more than half of them. In those circumstances, and in view of our position, I ask the Motherland what she intends to do. It would probably mean huge expense to bring great numbers of those people to Australia, but, to my mind, it is a question of expense and existence, or no existence at all. An article on this subject appeared in the Sydney <inline font-style="italic">Sun,</inline> of 8th July, 1923. It read- </para>
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