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19351101_reps_14_147_c1.xml
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19351101_reps_14_147_c1.xml
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<hansard xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd" version="2.1" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
<session.header>
<date>1935-11-01</date>
<parliament.no>14</parliament.no>
<session.no>1</session.no>
<period.no>3</period.no>
<chamber>REPS</chamber>
<page.no>1253</page.no>
<proof>0</proof>
</session.header>
<chamber.xscript>
<para class="block">House of Representatives. </para>
<business.start>
<day.start>1935-11-01</day.start>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Speaker</inline>(Hon.G.J. Bell) took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers. </para>
</business.start>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>1253</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>DAYS OF SITTING</title>
<page.no>1253</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1253</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KLM</name.id>
<electorate>MELBOURNE, VICTORIA</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MALONEY, William</name>
<name role="display">Dr MALONEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- As the honorable member for Melbourne, and on behalf of that, my native city, I ask the Prime Minister whether, in view of the fact that next Tuesday is the great carnival day of Victoria, aye, even of Australia, hewill arrange as a favour and as a gesture of goodwill to thousands of Australians that this House shall meet next week on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday instead of on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, as was suggested ? </para>
</talk.start>
<para>Honorable Members. - Hear, hear! </para>
<para>Dr.MALONEY. - May I invite you, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Speaker,</inline> and all honorable members, to rejoice with me in the fact that I have won that great Australian racehorse, Peter Pan, in a 2s. 6d. sweep ? </para>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1253</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>F4O</name.id>
<electorate>WILMOT, TASMANIA</electorate>
<party>ALP; UAP from 1931</party>
<role>Prime Minister</role>
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">LYONS, Joseph Aloysius</name>
<name role="display">Mr LYONS</name>
</talker>
<para>- The honorable member for Flemington - I mean Melbourne - was good enough to intimate to me that he proposed to ask this question. He has made his request in the friendly fashion that characterizes all his actions, and one finds it hard to refuse to accede to it. I feel that the honorable member speaks for not only a large number of his own colleagues, but also many honorable members on this side of the House. When he notified me ofhis intention to raise the matter, I instituted inquiries which revealed the fact that the sessional order relating to days of sitting provides that, unless otherwise ordered, the House will meet fur the despatch of business on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday in each week. In the circumstances I do not propose to move for a departure from that resolution. It is therefore intended that the days of sitting next week shall be Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. May I congratulate the honorable member for Melbourne <inline font-weight="bold">(Dr. Maloney)</inline> upon having obtained an interest in such a wonderful racehorse as Peter Pan by the investment of so small a sum as 2s.6d? </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>PAPER</title>
<page.no>1254</page.no>
<type>miscellaneous</type>
</debateinfo>
<para>The following paper was presented: - </para>
<quote>
<para>Sugar Agreement - Fourth Annual Report of the fruit Industry Sugar Concession Committee, for year ended 31st August, 1935. </para>
</quote>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>ACKNOWLEDGMENT OF RESOLUTION OF SYMPATHY</title>
<page.no>1254</page.no>
<type>miscellaneous</type>
</debateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1254</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>10000</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">SPEAKER, Mr</name>
<name role="display">Mr SPEAKER</name>
</talker>
<para>- I desire to inform the House that I have received from <inline font-weight="bold">Mrs. Maxwell</inline> a letter thanking the House for its resolution of sympathy in her bereavement. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>WHEAT AND WHEAT PRODUCTS BILL 1935</title>
<page.no>1254</page.no>
<type>bill</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>Second Reading</title>
<page.no>1254</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<para>Dr.EARLE PAGE (Cowper - Minis ter for Commerce) [10.35]. - In moving </para>
<para class="block">That the bill be now read a second time, </para>
<para>I desire to inform the House that the object of the Government is to bring into operation a plan of organization to apply to wheat the principle ofa homeconsumption price, by means similar to those already functioning in the case of dairy products and dried fruits. </para>
<para>The wheat industry has been in a difficult position at various times since the war, and especially within recent years owing to the consistently low prices which have prevailed. This industry is very important in the national life of Australia. It engages the principal attention of nearly 70,000 farmers, who have produced crops valued, in times of reasonable prices, at £40,000,000 annually. In more recent times the value of the crop has declined, owing to reduced prices, to the vicinity of £25,000,000. The industry has played its part in helping Australia during the depression. An instance of that is the splendid response made by wheat-growers throughout Australia to an appeal by the Commonwealth Government early in the depression to "grow more wheat". </para>
<para>It is necessary in the national interest that wheat producers should be paid a reasonable price which will enable them to carry on and meet their obligations. The Commonwealth Government has aimed at affording to wheat-growers a home-consumption price in respect of that portion of their product which is consumed in Australia. This, to some extent, will afford them price conditions similar to those afforded to secondary industries, except that wheat-growers have to export a large proportion of their product, and in. respect of that proportion they must accept world prices. Action to bring about a home-consumption price will establish a firm starting point for a comprehensive rural rehabilitation scheme by supplementing in an effective manner the steps already taken to adjust farmers' debts by means of composition arrangements through the grant of £12,000,000 to the States under the Farmers' Debt Adjustment Act. </para>
<para>While seeking a permanent solution, the Commonwealth Parliament has afforded financial assistance to the following amounts : - </para>
<para class="block">
<graphic href="147331193511014_1_0.jpg" />
</para>
<para>But realizing that the wheat industry should not be always dependent upon annual grants in its times of adversity, the Federal Government in 1933 appointed a royal commission for the purpose of investigating by what means the industry could be placed on a permanent and stable basis. The grant of £4,000,000 for the 1934-35 season was made on the recommendation of the royal commission. </para>
<para>One of the principal recommendations of the royal commission was that a homeconsumption price should be paid for wheat. The commission made recommendations regarding the means by which this objective should be achieved. To begin with, a continuance of the flour sales tax or an excise duty was recommended. It was further recommended that a. compulsory marketing scheme should be adopted for the future, in order to achieve theobjective of a home-consumption price. </para>
<para>When the Government received the report of the commission, it gave effect to its policy of consulting the Australian Agricultural Council, which was established for the purpose of securing the cooperation of all the governments of Australia on major agricultural problems. The legal and constitutional aspects of the different means of assisting the wheat industry were considered by the Australian Agricultural Council at its meeting in May, 1935, when a resolution was passed that legislation should be enacted by the Commonwealth and State Parliaments providing for organized marketing of wheat, as was done in regard to dairy products. At a further meeting held in October, consisting of representatives of the Commonwealth and State Governments and of every section of wheat interests, the matter was again exhaustively discussed. On that occasion the following four proposals were considered : - </para>
<list type="decimal">
<item label="(1)">
<para>Commonwealth and State compulsory pools. </para>
</item>
<item label="(2)">
<para>State compulsory pools, with an excise on wheat imposed by the Commonwealth to enable a home-consumption price to be paid. </para>
</item>
<item label="(3)">
<para>Continuance of the flour tax. </para>
</item>
<item label="(4)">
<para>A plan submitted by the Commonwealth based upon the principles already embodied in legislation regarding dried fruits and dairy products. </para>
</item>
</list>
<para>The general plan for compulsory pools was considered to he impracticable, because of the lack of unanimity among the State governments. The flour tax, owing to difficulties associated with its imposition, was regarded as a stop-gap measure rather than a permanent solution. </para>
<para>During the discussion which took place in the Wheat Conference the following principles were unanimously approved : - </para>
<list type="decimal">
<item label="(1)">
<para>That a home-consumption price for wheat should be established ; </para>
</item>
<item label="(2)">
<para>That the Commonwealth and State Governments should take the necessary action to provide the means to secure this home-consumption price; </para>
</item>
<item label="(3)">
<para>That provision should be made to license flour-millers; and </para>
</item>
<item label="(4)">
<para>That wheatreceivers should he | licensed tinder a warehouse plan. </para>
</item>
</list>
<para>In view of the differences of opinion expressed in the Wheat Conference as to how these principles should be applied, the Commonwealth and State Ministers met as the Australian Agricultural Council, and, after exhaustive discussion, passed the following resolutions unanimously : - </para>
<quote>
<para>The conference of State governments generally approves the Commonwealth plan of securing a home-consumption price for wheat, and State Ministers will favorably recommend its adoption to their Governments. </para>
<para>If insuperable obstacles unfortunately delay implementing the plan for the coming harvest, the conference urges the temporary re- imposition of the flour tax to enable a homeconsumption price to be paid. </para>
<para>The home-consumption price for wheat recommended by the conference is 4s. 9d. per bushel f.a.q., f.o.r. at seaboard. </para>
</quote>
<para>The success of. our marketing plans as applied to dairy products and dried fruits depends upon agreement between the organized units of the industries concerned in regard to the equalization of export and home-consumption returns, and on the existence of some concentrating agency through which the product passes, namely, the butter factory in the case of the dairying industry, and the packing shed <inline font-style="italic">in</inline> the case of the dried fruits industry. Through this organization in those two industries, the returns received on the domestic and export markets are made the subject of equalization. This equalization of returns is assured by provision in the legislation for the fixation of a home-consumption quota by the State, and by the legal requirement, in respect of interstate trade, that the trader shall export, or cause to be exported on his behalf, the prescribed quota of his production. Interstate trade is regulated by the issue of licences, subject to the condition that the licensee will comply with the export quota provisions. In actual practice, the utmost freedom to export or sell on the domestic market is maintained. The necessary adjustments are made by the Equalization Committee between the different producers and the different States, without the physical transfer of the products. </para>
<para>In the case of the wheat industry, difficulties were found in applying the same type of legislation, because of the absence of concentrating points similar to the factory in the case of the dairying industry, and the packing shed in the case of the dried fruits industry. It was found that these difficulties could be overcome by the licensing of receivers of wheat, which very markedly reduces the number of units to be dealt with and makes possible an effective plan. In a State like New South "Wales, where the silo system is well developed, the plan will work with very little additional machinery, and the system of licensing wheat warehouses that the plan will initiate should stimulate a long-hoped-for reform in other States, audi prove of great advantage in safeguarding the interests of the wheat-growers. </para>
<para>In general principle, the legislation proposed for the marketing of wheat follows that already in existence for the marketing of dairy products and dried fruits which has been in force for some time, and has operated with satisfaction. The State legislation for the wheat industry will bring into existence wheat boards analogous to the dairy products boards. It will impose on the wheatgrower the obligation to consign his wheat to licensed receivers, and to furnish an authority which will enable the receivers to pass a duplicate copy of the receipt for the wheat to the State authority, which will issue to the farmer a home-consumption warrant in respect of that part of the wheat delivered by him which corresponds to the quota fixed for home consumption in the State concerned. The farmer will also receive an export warrant for the remainder of his wheat. The State Wheat Boards will have power to sell home-consumption warrants, at the home-consumption price, to the millers who require wheat to grist for domestic consumption, and the State boards will be empowered to enter into arangements to make the necessary adjustments as between the. States. </para>
<para>The Commonwealth Parliament is simply required to legislate to ensure that interstate trade will be regulated in such a way as to make the State legislation effective and this bill provides for that to be done. Farmers in one State may deliver their wheat to licensed receivers in another State under conditions <inline font-style="italic">set</inline> out in the bill. Once the wheat has been delivered to a licensed receiver it will be dealt with in the same way as wheat delivered from farmers in that State. The Commonwealth bill provides for the issue of licences in respect of interstate trade, and processors will be required to fulfil the same conditions in respect of their interstate trade in wheat products as they are required to fulfil under the State legislation in respect of their trade within the State. </para>
<para>I have already mentioned that the Australian Agricultural Council carried a resolution approving of the Commonwealth plan. Prior to the adoption of this resolution, the Council considered very carefully an alternative proposal submitted by the merchants and millers, under which it was proposed to ensure a homr-consumption price for wheat by means of a graduated excise fixed quarterly according to changes in the export price of wheat. It was claimed for this plan that it had the advantages of simplicity and inexpensiveness in administration as compared with the plan proposed by the Commonwealth. Federal and State Ministers carefully examined the .proposal of the merchants and millers, and came to the conclusion that it did not possess the advantages claimed for it. </para>
<para>The merchants' plan would require legislation by the Parliaments of both the Commonwealth and the States just as does the Commonwealth plan. It would also require Federal and State machinery for the collection of the excise and the payment of a bounty to the growers. Past experience shows that the distribution of the funds either as a general bounty on all wheat produced, or on that used for home consumption, is a fairly expensive operation. Furthermore, under the plan proposed by merchants and millers, the assurance of a home-consumption price would depend upon the Commonwealth Parliament periodically levying a flour tax or a wheat excise tax, which might vary quarterly. This would introduce an clement of political uncertainty. Under the Commonwealth plan a homeconsumption price would be automatically secured by the sale of home-consumption warrants, by the State Wheat Boards, to processors for their home-consumption requirements. The legislation now proposed, if adopted, will enable that plan to proceed without interruption. The merchants' plan would depend for its effectiveness upon the Commonwealth exercising its excise power by Commonwealth statute. If the price of wheat rose temporarily to approximately the home-consumption price at a time when excise legislation was under consideration, the Federal Parliament might not pass legislation. As a consequence, if the price subsequently dropped to a low level when Parliament was out of session, the wheat industry might be left without the means of securing an adequate homeconsumption price. </para>
<para>Of the other objections raised by the merchants to the Commonwealth plan, it should first be said that nothing in the proposed Commonwealth plan would prevent merchants or millers buying special wheat at a premium, if they so desired. The experience of the butter and dried fruits equalization plans indicates that no serious checks occur to trade flowing in its ordinary channels, nor is there any huge expense necessarily attached to the means to make it work. </para>
<para>I am informed that the governments of New South Wales and Queensland have already introduced legislation into (.heir Parliaments to give effect to the plan agreed upon, and the Government of Victoria will introduce its legislation next Wednesday. The Commonwealth Government is ready to pass its legislation to enable the plan to operate this year, but it cannot finally pass it until the State legislation is enacted. It therefore proposes that the bill which I have brought up will be further discussed when the State legislation is further advanced, which, it is hoped, will 'be soon enough to give opportunity for the scheme to operate for this year's harvest. </para>
<para>Debate (on motion -by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. A.</inline> Green) adjourned. </para>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>SANCTIONS BILL 1935</title>
<page.no>1257</page.no>
<type>bill</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>Second Reading</title>
<page.no>1257</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<para>Debate resumed from the 3lst October <inline font-style="italic">(vide</inline> page 1214), on motion by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Menzies</inline> - </para>
<quote>
<para>That the bill has now read a second time. </para>
</quote>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1257</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>009FQ</name.id>
<electorate>Fremantle</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CURTIN, John</name>
<name role="display">Mr CURTIN</name>
</talker>
<para>.- It will be recognized that this bill is presented to Parliament in circumstances of the utmost gravity, and that the decision that we shall make in respect of it will be fraught with portents of the deepest significance to the future of Australia. It is not unreasonable to remind the House that the world war of 1914- 1918 had its origin in circumstances not entirely dissimilar from those which exist to-day in regard to Italy and Abyssinia. The major powers of the world were at that time involved in war as the result of a conflict which was limited at its commencement to Austria and Serbia. The Austrian ultimatum to Serbia could have been submitted to by Servia, but it was resisted. As the result of that resistance, event followed event rapidly until the world found itself involved in the most terrible conflict known to history. We are now faced with the fact, that in consequence of what has taken place, and is taking place, between Italy and Abyssinia the world, if not at the moment actually involved in war, is being told that its peace is menaced. Steps are, therefore, being taken, by various countries and in a variety of ways, which have for their purpose some kind of concerted action which, it is believed, may place such restraint upon Italy as will cause it to abandon its campaign against Abyssinia. It is true that, in a substantial measure, the efforts at concerted action have their origin in a series of agreements reached in consequence of the functioning of the League of Nations, and that the efforts towards collective security have been more or less accepted by many people in many countries as a method of safeguarding their particular territories against the risk of war. I believe, however, that an examination of the present circumstances would suggest that a general bargain to go to war in the name of collective security is the worst possible policy for a nation which has proclaimed its determination to act peacefully towards the rest of the world. Australia declares that it stands for peace. By the provisions of the Kellogg Pact, it undertook that the settlement or solution of all disputes or conflicts which arise of whatever nature, or of whatever origin, shall never be sought except by pacific means. It is, therefore, quite clear that the pacific course is the only one open to Australia if it is to honour its obligations under the Kellogg Pact. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
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<talker>
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<para>- Would the honorable member say that the Kellogg Pact overrides the Covenant of the League of Nations? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
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<page.no>1258</page.no>
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<para>- The Kellogg Pact is a binding obligation on the Government of Australia. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1258</page.no>
<time.stamp />
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<electorate>DARLING DOWNS, QUEENSLAND</electorate>
<party>PROT; LP from 1910; NAT from 1917; IND from 1931; UAP from 1934</party>
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<para>- But does it override the Covenant of the League? </para>
</talk.start>
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<para>- The Covenant of the League is not more binding on Australia than are the provisions of the Kellogg Pact. The Covenant and the Pact of Paris are in fact, related documents which should he construed together. It may be said that the Kellogg Pact was made as the outcome of the general recognition that if war was to be outlawed some wider and more specific agreement was necessary than could be made under the Covenant of the League of Nations. The Kellogg Pact does what the Covenant of the League does not do, for, in respect of the nations which have signed it, it outlaws war as an instrument of action for the settlement of international disputes. The Covenant of the League provides the structure and, as it were the machinery with which to develop for the world that international solidarity which would permit collective security ultimately to become an attainable realization. Bound up with the League Covenant are various other considerations. We know that efforts have been made under the Covenant to secure disarmament and to provide other means to avoid war. Primarily and basically I cannot see how Australia can maintain its loyalty to the Covenant of the League of Nations, for it commits it to obligations that were subsequently negatived by the strict provisions of the Pact of Paris. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
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<talker>
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<time.stamp />
<name.id>JTY</name.id>
<electorate>BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
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<para>- That pact ceases to operate as soon as one nation breaks it. </para>
</talk.start>
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<para>- Everything ceases to operate when events precipitate governments beyond their intentions. In the medley of covenants, treaties, and articles associated with the Treaty of Versailles and its derivatives, of which the Covenant of the League is but one, there is much that is contradictory and provocative of confusion. The AttorneyGeneral <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Menzies)</inline> candidly told us yesterday that a good deal of confusion had arisen in respect of the recent activities of the Co-ordination Committee and also as to what should be the procedural steps in connexion with the application of article 16 of the Covenant. That confusion is more or less understandable. The League of Nations, like Parliament itself, is an evolutionary body. The basic position, as I see it, having regard to the Covenant and the substantial spirit behind it, is that each country is to decide for itself its own position. It may say that it will commit an act of war, or an act which is, in essence, an act of war, orthat it will not do so. The choice is left to each country to make for itself. If I understand the sentiment of Australia at all, I believe that it can be said that Australia has learned so much of the horrors of war that itis resolved that its affirmation in the Pact of Paris shall he regarded as a solemn obligation. It will not engage in war as a method of determining or solving international disputes. The Government affirms, as we were told yesterday, that our general obligations to the League of Nations commit us to a full participation in collective security. Through the Attorney-General, the Government has contended that collective security, as defined in the article of the Covenant, compels an automatic acceptance of financial and economic sanctions, but it has also contended that military and naval sanctions are not automatically operable. That, I think, fairly sets out the view expressed yesterday by the Attorney-General. </para>
</talk.start>
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<para>Let me consider the general subject of sanctions as related to the policy of collective security. The purpose of sanctions, to argue the matter on the highest plane, is to prevent war by coercing an aggressive country without, it is claimed, becoming involved in war ourselves. That, I think, is the essence of the arguments that can be advanced in elaboration of this doctrine, but I suggest that here an immediate contradiction is at once apparent. So far as coercion against Italy is concerned, Australia is neither neutral nor inactive; but with respect to war against Italy, the Government at present professes intentions which are the equivalent of neutrality. It holds the view that financial sanctions are automatically operative, but that military and naval sanctions are not automatically operative. Australia, therefore, can be said to exhibit a qualified neutrality, or, alternatively, a qualified aggression; but qualified or conditional opposition to Italy, as expressed in the sanctions we are now asked to apply, cannot be said to negate the prospect of our becoming involved in war. The fact is that these sanctions may be wholly emasculated as a deterrent on Italy unless we are prepared in the final result to go to war. "We have to face the fact that, unless we desist from the policy of discriminating against Italy, Italy may threaten us with war. What then would he the position of this Government and Australia? The AttorneyGeneral answers that question by a legal dissertation on the subtle distinctions between violent coercive measures and non-violent coercion. I submit that his argument in that respect, to state my view moderately, was very weak. In his own support he quoted <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Piddington</inline> as having said that there was a distinction of great significance, but in the controversy in which the quoted remarks were made, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Piddington</inline> was the losing advocate, the unsuccessful pleader. The Attorney-General did not refer to what Professor Charteris had to say in that controversy. </para>
<interjection>
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<para>- The less said about his views the better. </para>
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<para>- They are at least of great significance. Discussing <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Piddington's</inline> declarations, Professor Charteris said that the Covenant of the League told a very different story. He pointed out that article 16 contains four paragraphs, of which <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Piddington</inline> ignored the last three, and, confining himself to the first clause, picked out two of its provisions, but ignored the introductory text and the all- important third provision. This article begins - </para>
</talk.start>
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<quote>
<para>Should any member of the League resort to war in disregard . of his Covenants under article 12, 13, or 15, it shall, <inline font-style="italic">ipso facto,</inline> have committed an act of war against all other members of the League which hereby undertake to . . . </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">To do three things - one, to sever all trade or financial relations; and two, to prohibit all intercourse between their nations, on the one hand, and those of the Covenant-breaker on the other. These duties, Professor Charteris admitted, can be performed by a State within its own territory. That was <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Piddington^</inline> argument, but the third duty of the League, as set out in this article, and which Professor Charteris stressed, was - </para>
<quote>
<para>The prevention of all financial, commercial, or personal intercourse between the nationals of the Covenant-breaking State, and- </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">Professor Charteris notes carefully - the nationals of any other State, whether <inline font-style="italic">a</inline> member of the League or not. </para>
<para class="block">That is, in the present crisis, the United States of America, Germany, and Japan. </para>
<interjection>
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<para>- Does the honorable member accept the whole of that argument ? </para>
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<para>- It represents a reasonable interpretation of the article as applied to the prospects now confronting the nations concerned. </para>
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<para>- Does the honorable member adopt the whole of that argument? </para>
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<para>- I do not accept the whole of Professor Charteris's argument any more than the honorable member accepts the whole of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Piddington's</inline> argument. </para>
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<para>- I adopt the whole of the views set out by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Piddington</inline> in his letter. </para>
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<para>- Professor Charteris states - </para>
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<quote>
<para>What article 16 (J), in effect, provides, is th is, that in the event set out in the first line the innocent members of the League without declaration of war on their part, are bound to re-act against the Covenant-breaker in specified ways, of which the last involves interference with the communications of the Covenant-breaker and non-members of the League. As regards sea communications, the duty of prevention involves blockade. </para>
</quote>
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<para>- And the first two duties do not ; that is his case. </para>
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</interjection>
<para>Mr.CURTIN.-Does the honorable member suggest that if coercive measures againstItaly are sabotaged by neutral States, or by Italy's capacity to secure supplies from States other than Australia, sanctions will not break down? </para>
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<para>- There is no provision, expressed or implied, in this for a blockade, and consequently the remarks of Professor Charteris are irrelevant. </para>
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<para>- My argument is. that we must judge these provisions, not on what they say, but on what they may lead to ; consequently it would be dangerous and disastrous for this Parliament to accept the view that, without an implied threat of force, we can coerce a country financially and economically, tie up its trade and prevent it from communicating with any other country. "We could no more do that than we could maintain the laws of this country merely by the declarations of this Parliament. </para>
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<para>- The honorable member sets article 16 entirely on one side. </para>
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<para>Mr.CURTIN.- I do not. I accept it when read in conjunction with the Kellogg Pact. </para>
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<para>- And give it no meaning at all. </para>
</talk.start>
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<para>Mr.CURTIN.- The essence of these two documents when read in conjunction is that the best service any nation can render in order to maintain world peace is to refuse to go to war with any other country. </para>
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<para>- Does the honorable member suggest that that is the interpretation of article 16? </para>
</talk.start>
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<para>Mr.CURTIN.- It is the interpretation which would he applied by the world, having in mind the fact that wars have waged for hundreds of years and the League of Nations, during its brief existence of two decades, because of disloyalty of States, has failed to carry out recommendations of less importance than those covered by this bill. </para>
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<para>- I am still seeking the honorable member's interpretation of article 16. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<para>Mr.CURTIN. - Apparently the Attorney-General would have us believe that because Italy resisted sanctions which Australia attempted to apply, Australia would not be responsible for war if it then took steps to make such sanctions effective. He argues that the responsibility for war in that case would rest upon Italy. But that would not alter the fact that Australia would he at war, and that is the extreme crucial issue confronting this Parliament at the moment. Such an argument shows the oblique subtlety of the Minister's statements. He said, in effect, thai if we boycott Italy and Italy resists, and we then have to take measures to make our boycott effective, Italy is the maker of that war and we are entirely free from responsibility for such a war. But we have committed ourselves to consequences which will probably lead to war; and curiously enough, one would imagine if the legal dissertation of the honorable gentleman were valid, that pickets subjected to a strike at establishments could not be held responsible for such disturbances as resulted from their presence and activities. </para>
<para>Australia at present is in no danger of war with Italy, unless we take part with certain other countries in what is unquestionably a blockade of Italy. I know that non-violent coercion . and economic sanctions are often put forward by pacificists as an alternative to the use of military sanctions. The honorable member for Bourke <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Blackburn)</inline> would probably look at the matter from that point of view. I have two comments to offer here. The first is that sanctions can have effect only if Italy is prepared to submit to them, and the second is that Italy's submission or refusal will be decided, not by abstract theories or legal sophistries, but by the realities of the situation. Can Italy get supplies despite economic sanctions? Can it divide the world into two groups, one opposing it and the other, either openly or secretly, trading with it and supplying it with so much of the commodities that it needs to maintain its activities? Upon its answer to that question will rest Italy's attitude arising out of our own actions in this matter, and the issue will be decided whether or not Australia will become embroiled in war. It is clear that, if we are opposed to hazards leading inevitably to Australia's becoming embroiled in war, we should not participate in the enforcement of these sanctions. On the other hand, if we are prepared to take perilous risks, then, of course, we can set out on such a programme </para>
<para>Bride goeth forth on horseback grand and gay, </para>
<para>But cometh back on foot, and begs its way. </para>
<para>It is idle to ignore the power of malign forces which hitherto have made a profit out of the trade in war. We know that throughout the last war, despite the fact that there was in operation a War Precautions Act in Australia, and a Defence of the Realm Act in the United Kingdom, and despite the fact that French policy was mo3t scrupulous to protect French interests, British and French industries maintained to Germany a steady stream of glycerine for explosives, nickel, copper, oil and rubber. Germany even returned the compliment ; it sent France iron and steel magnetos for gasoline engines. During the war this constant traffic went on in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Switzerland, Spain and Holland, by the simple process of transhipment - enemy to neutral to enemy. It is no bristling Communist who supplies corroboration, but as conservative and well-known a gentleman as Rear-Admiral William Warcop Peter Consett, who was British naval attache in Denmark between 1912 and 1917, and in Norway and Sweden between 1912 and 1919. I submit that illicit traffic in goods for the profit of the supplier, which, had the effect of equipping both belligerents for the carrying on of their respective campaigns, as was the case in the last war, cannot be considered to have been entirely eliminated to-day. Such a traffic was carried on even while the last war raged. Evidence of what has happened since can be summed up in the finding of an authoritative committee to the League of Nations in September, 1921, which shows how certain interests operate to-day to wreck the policy of governments designed to preserve the peace of the world. It would be just as easy for the great oil and financial inter ests of the world, which know no country, to wreck the sanctions imposed by Great Britain, France and Australia, as it was for them to wreck the disarmament conference by expending enormous sums of money in order to maintain a situation which makes armaments more or less unavoidable. In September, 1921, a committee of the League of Nations reported in regard to armament firms - </para>
<quote>
<para>That armament firms have attempted to bribe Government officials both at home and abroad. </para>
<para>That armament firms have disseminated false reports concerning the military and naval programme of various countries in order to stimulate armament expenditure. </para>
<para>That armament firms have sought to influence public opinion through the control of newspapers in their own and foreign countries. </para>
<para>That armament firms have organized international armament rings through 'which the armament race has been accentuated by playing off one country against another. </para>
<para>That armament firms have organized international armament trusts which have increased the price of armaments sold to governments. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">It is idle for governments to ignore the influences on public policy, which are reflected in the decisions of governments exercised by those vested interests which stand as an insuperable bar to the reconciliation of peoples and the development of a peace conscience throughout the world Those interests which, for gain, destroyed the prohibition policy of the United States of America simply because there was profit in illicit trading in alcoholic liquors will be 'busily engaged from now on seeking to make profits out of illicit trade with Italy. Tho non-inclusion of petrol in the sanctions formulated by the Coordination Committee of the League of Nations makes its whole proceedings suspect, for were petrol included in the sanctions, Italy would bo decisively and immediately, prejudiced in its attack on Abyssinia. But the inclusion of petrol in the sanctions would also be prejudicial to the powerful international oil interests, and therefore, no mention is made of petrol in the sanctions. By imposing sanctions, Australia will prohibit the export of commodities which are relatively inconsequential to Italy's military activities, whilst the great financial interests associated with petrol will remain free to maintain supplies of a commodity which unquestionably will aid Italy in its aggression. As a matter of fact, oil for </para>
<para class="block">Italy is now being supplied by the AngloPersian Oil Company as the following newspaper extract shows : - </para>
<para>London, Tuesday. </para>
<para>Allegations admitted to by the Chairman of the Directors, <inline font-weight="bold">Sir John</inline> Cadman, that the Anglo-Iran (Anglo-Persian) Oil Company Limited, was supplying oil to Italy, were made by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Lloyd</inline> George to-day. </para>
<para>
<inline font-weight="bold">Mr. .Lloyd</inline>George was addressing the Peace Re-construction Council, and he said that the company, of which Britain was one of the largest shareholders, claimed that if it did not supply the oil for the Italian tanks and planes which were bombing Abyssinian women and children, America would. </para>
<para class="block">Interviewed later, <inline font-weight="bold">Sir John</inline> Cadman said that oil was being supplied ito Italy in accordance with the sanctions. It is clear, therefore, that the sanctions which have been formulated do not prohibit the supply of oil to Italy. The Commonwealth proposes to refuse food to the civilian population of Italy, as well as to those Abyssinians who have been captured by Italian armies or have entered Italian camps as refugees, in the hope that Italian operations in Abyssinia will thereby he made more difficult, but the powerful interests, which are the enemies of peace, are so potent in affecting the decisions of the League of Nations that petrol which is used to destroy life has not yet been included in 'the sanctions. In another statement <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Lloyd</inline> George said - </para>
<quote>
<para>I have just had a pathetic conversation with the Abyssinian Minister to London. Britain is supplying Italy, through the Anglo-Iran (Anglo-Persian) Oil Company, of which I think we are the largest shareholders, with oil that is used in aeroplanes which are bombing women and children. Tanks and submarines also are being supplied. </para>
<para>The oil-magnates are very powerful. " When will we have a government to stand up to people of that sort for righteousness ?" </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">It is useless to deny that the traffic which went on during the world war for profit will continue in respect of these sanctions.' Obviously, governments will either genuinely apply the sanctions, and enforce them, whatever the consequences, or else they are merely staging a bluff. On this subject the <inline font-style="italic">New York Times</inline> says - </para>
<quote>
<para>While officially condemning Italy's Ethiopian campaign as an imperialist attempt to subdue a free people, the Soviet Union is furthering the Fascist aims and profiting from them by exporting supplies to the Italian camps in Africa. </para>
<para>For several months Greek freighters have been taking cargoes from Soviet Black Sea ports to Massawa and Mogadishu. No report of the traffic has appeared in the Russian, Italian and Greek press. </para>
<para>The Soviet insists on cash payments before the Greek freighters begin loading. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">In that respect it is like the AngloPersian Oil Company - </para>
<quote>
<para>The war business with Italy is more profitable to the Soviet than the trade -with other Mediterranean countries, which demand reciprocal export balances where no political alliance exists. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">It would appear that the League of Nations is not prepared to deal a mortal blow at Italy's mechanized army because that would also mean threatening the powerful international oil interests which, with the armament trusts, have frustrated the efforts at disarmament and are, in fact, the real enemies of world peace. That Australia should refuse food to Italy, and thereby deny it to those Abyssinians who are now controlled by Italy, while the oil interests continue to supply petrol for Italian aeroplanes to bomb the helpless Abyssinian population, defies rational explanation. It is an affront to common sense to argue that an economic boycott of Italy can be maintained without the application of force. As between democratic countries, attempts at bluff are utterly unreliable; in the presence of megalomaniac dictators they are menacing to ourselves as well as to others. According to the London <inline font-style="italic">Times,</inline><inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Baldwin,</inline> in December, 1927, quoted the words of article 16, which the AttorneyGeneral <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Menzies)</inline> referred to at such length yesterday, and referred particularly to the contribution, by the members of the League, of military and other forces in order to protect League Covenants. He asked : " How can we honour this undertaking without armed forces?" He supplied his own answer when he said, " Clearly, we could not do so ". That statement is a definite admission of the obligation, in prescribed circumstances, to take military action if article 16 is to operate. </para>
<para>There is a practical interpretation of sanctions which is far more significant than any legal interpretation. What sanctions mean can be judged from. the views expressed by a number of authorities. Yesterday the views of Professor Brierly and <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. A.</inline> B. Piddington were quoted. I draw attention to the statement of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Baldwin</inline> in the House of Commons on the 7th February, 1934 - </para>
<quote>
<para>An economic sanction is very difficult to bring into effect without blockade. Blockade is an act of war, and every country, unless it is absolutely impotent, which you blockade, will light you for it. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">That is a more realistic picture of the situation than <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Piddington's</inline> sophistries, or the Attorney-General's eloquent quotation of them. I do not know how the statement of <inline font-weight="bold">Sir John</inline> Latham, which was read to the House yesterday, can be construed to support the argument of the Attorney-General. I shall read a portion of it again - and in reading only a portion I do no injustice to the context. <inline font-weight="bold">Sir John</inline> Latham, as reported in the <inline font-style="italic">Sydney Morning Herald</inline> of the 22nd October, 1935, said - </para>
<quote>
<para>The prohibition of economic and other intercourse must involve in many cases if it is to be effective, the establishment of a blockade. Accordingly it must be realized that when it is proposed that the provisions of article 1G should bc put into operation the decision which a government lias to take is just the same decision as it has to take when the question is one of a declaration . of war. The responsibility is the same in one case as in the other. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">If sanctions are being applied by Australia in pursuance of article 16 of the Covenant, I now reply to a question asked of me earlier by the AttorneyGeneral, by saying that I understand article 16 to mean that, if applied, we go to war with the country against which we apply it. <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Stafford</inline> Cripps has said - </para>
<quote>
<para>It is useless to imagine that economic sanctions may not also entail military sanctions, and the latter may - if ever the necessity for their imposition arises - entail a first class European war. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">An extract from the <inline font-style="italic">Christian Science Monitor,</inline> which is one of the most distinguished universal publications in the world, reads - </para>
<quote>
<para>Sanctions breed sanctions. Britain, as League policeman might begin by barring essential Italian imports from British sources. That would mean barring the exit of the banned commodities from British ports. But Italy would be able to obtain them just the same. In such circumstances sanctions would lead by stages direct to a blockade. The policeman would have to leave his own ports for the Italian ports in order to see that the pressure worked. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">That is not a fantastic picture. Indeed it depicts the only possible result of an attempt to make sanctions effective. In the House of Commons, on the 22nd October, 1935, the Foreign Secretary, <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Samuel</inline> Hoare, speaking of military sanctions, said that the necessary precondition of collective agreement had never existed and had not been discussed at Geneva, and that therefore they formed no part of British policy. But will Britain yet have to face the necessity to include military sanctions as part of British policy ? If so, and Britain agrees that military sanctions must follow as a logical sequence, are we to understand that Australia will not be hound by military sanctions? The answer of the Attorney-General then would be that sanctions do not matter because the Empire is at war. Australia would be involved in war, not because economic sanctions led naturally to military sanctions, but because the resistance to economic sanctions compelled Great Britain to take military or naval measures in order to enforce them. Thus, whatever may be the roads whereby the inevitable pass is reached, Australia will have to face the position of being either at war or not at war. However we may attempt to evade the issue now, it appears conclusive that the decision which is bound up in the passage of these sanctions compels us to have cognizance of the time when war becomes inevitable. </para>
<para>On the 29th October, just two weeks after <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Samuel</inline> Hoare made his statement to the House of Commons, the <inline font-style="italic">Sydney Morning Herald,</inline> in an editorial, questioned whether the " effectiveness " of the sanctions could be deemed satisfactory, and stated that Viscount Cecil and other persons of importance in England were despairing of " half-way measures," and had pointed out that, if Signor Mussolini should persist in his challenge to the League of Nations, they could see no alternative but for Britain, in the near future, to press Geneva to the imposition of military sanctions. The <inline font-style="italic">Sydney Morning Herald</inline> then proceeded to ask "whether the economic sanctions now proposed can be assured without policing, that is, without examination at sea of cargoes destined for Italy". That is a form of naval blockade. The newspaper summed up its conclusions by declaring that* the Covenant of the League of Nations requires not merely isolation of the conflict, but also its cessation. The League, it went on to say, cannot save the Abyssinians from their agony by ruining Italy and starving millions of Italian women and children at home. Those are considerations which, it is urged, may soon compel Britain, as a further test of the resolution of League members, to impose military sanctions at Geneva. </para>
<para>That is not merely a view that could be quoted as that of an opponent of the present Commonwealth Government. Inevitably, the <inline font-style="italic">Sydney Morning Herald</inline> is a conspicuous supporter of it. It has the wisdom, however, to perceive inevitable and logical conclusions from government policy which the Attorney-General is either afraid or does not desire to state himself. </para>
<para>Professor Charteris, professor of international law, had something to say on this same point when he declared - </para>
<quote>
<para>From economic sanctions to police sanctions, the step i3 short, but may bc very steep. If the step is taken and the Covenant-breaker resists, then you are plunged into war - plunged into war at the call of the Covenantbreaker. It is, therefore, completely misleading to say that economic sanctions under an article of the League are not an act of war. If they are not an act of war, they aire not due fulfilment of the duties imposed by Article XVI. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">That being the case, why is it that the real issue of the situation is being evaded? Having regard to the stated intentions of prominent League spokesmen that Italy must be restrained or the League will fail, why is not Italy threatened with the full exercise of every coercive power, diplomatic, financial, economic, and military? If the case for sanctions against Italy is established, and if the obligations on member States, cannot be satisfied, except by defeating. Italy's present ambitions, why not proclaim it as an international duty to go straightaway to war against Italy? </para>
<para class="block">If Italy is likely to yield to the threat of sanctions, would it not be absolutely intimidated by the ultimatum, that war would be waged against it unless it evacuated Abyssinia and. agreed to terms of peace ? That would be the logical construction of the position, but it is not being done, because the governments know that their respective peoples are not prepared to go to. war. But to involve them in war is another thing. Events Lead to further events. </para>
<para>To-day, Australia may agree to sanctions in the delusion that they avert war, and to-morrow or next month may find that, although the choice will not then be ours, war has resulted because of Italian resistance to sanctions. </para>
<para>There are geographical danger spots in the modern world. Part of China is one; Austria is another, and Abyssinia is a third. These are the seats of financial and economic contest and collision. Nations as such are not concerned with these theatres of exploitation and future authority; but they are concerned with them as the instruments of oil trusts, armament rings, and international high finance. The competition of these contending warmongers and peace-wreckers is the basis of public policy in many countries. </para>
<para>Is Australia to be dragged at the coattails of these moulders of national policy in the name of loyalty to covenants and the observance of treaties which are broken, when to break them is condoned, as in the case of Germany after Versailles, and in Manchukuo only the other day, and to uphold them when it suits interests outside Australia to do so, as in the case of Belgium, and now in Abyssinia? I ask this question, because one European war has already cost the nation irreplacable lives and treasure, and resources so vast that for generations its burden will remain as a terrific strain on OUr resources. </para>
<para>We cannot blind ourselves to the pre, sent shortcomings of international solidarity. I repeat what <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Samuel</inline> Hoare has said, in respect to military sanctions - </para>
<quote>
<para>I will say frankly, in view of the precondition for the enforcement of such sanctions, that a collective agreement at Geneva has never existed. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">Does such an essential pre-condition for the enforcement of any other kind of international agreement or sanctions exist? If it does, how explain the failure to accomplish disarmament? </para>
<para class="block">What explanation- is there for the breakdown of the World' Economic, Conference.? Why, the slow- pi-ogress towardthe ratification, of the- conventions of the International Labour Office?- </para>
<para>Iti may be said that those conventions ure relatively unimportant, fcu* that is not the case. The Covenant especially declares that the basis: of international peace is social justice. Until such relations are observed peace between nations is not attainable. Yet in this, essential pre-condition to peace among nations the findings of the League have been broadly ignored. Forty conventions have been adopted. The number of ratifications, which should be- effected,, if every nation ratified all the conventions, is- 2,230, but only 568 ratifications have been actually made. Just how far the hazardous experiment of the. enforcement of the partial application of sanctions against a belligerent country can be expected to lead nations back into peace can be gauged from the success, that has attended previous and other efforts to weld the countries into a peaceable collection of nations. The history of the International Labour Office is an excellent example pf the lack of success attending the efforts of the League of Nations. Broadly speaking, the constitution of the League would not provide a real solution of the problems which beset the world and lead member States into international strife unless it provided a remedy for the injustices to which the peoples are subjected. An indispensable step towards the object for which the League was created is the establishment of a. permanent association of the nations to remedy those injustices. That indispensable step has still to be taken, yet we talk about maintaining the peace of the world. This party is expected to observe the full Obligations of the various treaties to which this nation is a signatory, but I submit that this aspect has been put to us by those who throughout the whole of the history of the League of Nations have chosen which treaties they will observe and which they will not honour. </para>
<para>According to the reports and minutes of the Commission on International Labour Legislation of the Peace Conference, the view of "our present discontents" that led the Peace Conference to establish the organic connexion between the League and the. International. Labour Organization- was. that - </para>
<quote>
<para>The Constitution of the League of Nations, will: not provide a real: solution, off the troubles that have beset the world in the past, and will not even be able to eliminate: the seeds, oi international strife unless it provides a remedy for the industrial evils ana injustices which mar. the- present. state- of' society.. <inline font-style="italic">Ilk</inline> proposing,, therefore, to establish a permanent organization in order to adjust . labour conditions by international action the commission, felt that it was taking, an indispensable step towards the achievement of the objects oi the League of Nations. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">The. same, view is expressed in the preamble to Part XIII. of: the Versailles Treaty, which declares that - </para>
<quote>
<para>Whereas the League of- Nations has for its object the establishment of universal peace, and such a peace can, bc established only if it is based upon social justice: And whereas conditions of 'labour exist involving such injustice, hardship and privation to large numbers of people, as to- produce unrest sogreat that the peace and harmony of ' the world are imperilled . . The High Contracting Parties, moved by sentiments of justice and humanity-, as well as by the desire to secure the permanent peace of. the world, agree to the following. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">Then follow the forty articles of the Con?stitution of the International Labour Organization. </para>
<para>In other words, it waa recognized that international peace and social peace, are bound up with each other; that, in the long rim, you cannot have peace between States if there is class war within States. It is important to remember that practically, the whole civilized world is pledged by the Covenant and. Part XIII. of the Peace Treaty not only to recognize this fact, but also to try to solve the resulting problems by co-operation and conciliation, which amounts to saying they recognize a further fact of even greater importance : that States and classes are not ultimate realities but merely temporary attempts of humanity to organize its communal life,, and therefore State conflicts and class conflicts must be subsidiary to the great permanent interests of mankind. In this connexion it is relevant to note that countries which have elected to abjure this view, and put State or class first, are logically impelled to postulate, a world where violence rules supreme, both within and without the State, and sp to deny the very foundations on which the League and the Labour Organization rest. </para>
<para>I do not desire to quote at any great length the signal failure which marked the efforts made in 1919, when the International Labour Office formulated a convention limiting the hours of work in industrial undertakings. At the end of 1934 only eighteen of the member States had ratified that convention. Yet they talk about solidarity and collective action ! The member nations have accepted obligations under which they express their willingness to assist each other in efforts to abolish war. We are told we must stand up to them in this effort. How does that measure up to the denial of the obligations by the nations to assist each other in connexion with industrial activities. It must be apparent that, while the dominance of great interests who profit out of war is allowed, peace cannot rule in the world. Peace cannot come until those who seek profit from productive services are defeated. </para>
<para>The League's failures regarding social conditions have been abject, but in regard to disarmament the position is even worse. On this pivotal point of the future of the world, recent history provides a tragic record. When the war to end war ended, Germany was disarmed. A decade passed and the signatory powers to the Treaty of Peace took no steps of value towards equality with Germany. Then came a series of conferences. A' recently deceased British Labour leader devoted his life towards the task of effecting world disarmament. Failure on failure marked every effort. Now Germany is establishing a basis of equality with other nations, not because they have disarmed, but because Germany is re-arming. </para>
<para>The British war-time Prime Minister, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Lloyd</inline> George, has declared that the failure of disarmament was due to the lack of support for it by the majority of the high contracting parties. He has said - </para>
<quote>
<para>We imposed upon Germany, who was accused of trampling by organized violence on international right, the most ruthless destruction of its peccant armaments. When the German delegates displayed natural hesitation about accepting these conditions, which reduced their Fatherland to impotence in an armed world,Clemenceau wrote them a letter, on behalf and at the request of his colleagues, assuring the Germans that their disarmament would be treated as a prelude to steps for general reduction of armaments by the other nations. His pledge is also expressed in the Covenant of the League of Nations. It was accepted by all the signatories to the treaty and ratified by their Senates. Two out of four who drafted that solemn undertaking have passed away - Clemenceau and Wilson. Signor Orlando and I remain. As one of the two survivors I have nohesitation in accepting the German view that the victorious nations have shamelessly broken faith on the question of armaments. I should be surprised to hear that my co-survivor, Orlando, took a different view of the turpitude of the victors in this respect. </para>
</quote>
<para>The British Government, according to a speech delivered by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. George</inline> Lansbury, opposed at Geneva all plans for the drastic reduction of armaments. Lord Londonderry, in the House of Lords, on the 22nd May, 1935, made it plain that it was Britain which defeated plans for all-round and complete disarmament in the air - plans which might have succeeded if they had been strongly supported. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Lansbury</inline> went on to say - </para>
<quote>
<para>They acquiesced in clandestine German re-armament, but failed to make proposals to Germany for a convention on the international reduction and supervision of armaments, by which, through the practical recognition of her right to equality of status, the full responsibility for failure would have been publicly established, if failure there had been. ' </para>
</quote>
<para>I submit that the implications of the future are more menacing now than at any time since the League was established. With Italy driven out of the League, only three great powers - Britain, Prance, and Russia - out of seven major world-powers are left in itAustralia's two nearest neighbours, Japan and the United States of America, are outside the League.For this Government, in any circumstances, to muddle us into a war over European disputes and entanglements while Japan and the United States of America remain aloof, wouldbe a crime equal in madness only to its terrific consequences. Australia is entitled to review the hopes it had when itbecame a. member of the League, and to compare them with the realities of the present situation. What had been an ideal may, in the vastly changed order of things to-day, become a veritable snare. The. Covenant was accepted as a moral compact on which the nations of the world would develop unitedly along the ways of peace. The good of mankind was tobe their inspiring urge, and no vested or narrow interests were to 'bar the road. </para>
<para>When the Covenant was framed, it was assumed that political democracy would he the prevailing system of government, that the League would soon be universal, and would impose all-round limitation and reduction of armaments, that the cult of war was dead, and that the economic system of capitalism would continue to function successfully. All these assumptions have been falsified. The economic depression has engendered a wave of political reaction which has assumed nationalist and imperialist forms. As a matter of fact, the- League found that its deadly inheritance from the world war had fouled its course from the very start. The League became an arena of disputation in which each nation fought for its own hand, or the hand of the interest which dominated its nationalist policies. The task of the peace-workers was frustrated by the defection of the United States of America, the unjust early treatment of Germany, the international conspiracies against Russia and the havoc exerted by the now acknowledged publicists of the forces which did not desire peace. To-day the Covenant, whilst more elaborate in phraseology, is also grievously more defective as an instrument of international action. Europe is less stable politically, and more disordered economically. The world depression has intensified nationalism; it has weakened internationalism. Democracy is in eclipse in the three great countries of Russia, Germany and Italy, which are lands of dictatorship. Two of these three dictatorships are on -opposing sides in the present crisis, and the third is furtively watching and waiting to ascertain what the witches' brew may offer to its advantage. Thus, only Britain and France can be counted among the major world powers to whom the League of Nations counts as a living instrument of international concert. France fears Germany, and, therefore, is hoping, rather than striving, for the maintenance of the League. These two powers, and not the League as a league of substance, are the real negotiators with Italy. </para>
<para>This week I addressed to the Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Lyons)</inline> a question regard ing the nature of the terms of peace which it was stated Italy had submitted to the French Government, and which were reported to have been communicated by the French Premier to the Government of the United Kingdom. It was reported that the proposals were being studied in London, and that the next move lay with Britain and France, who, it was said, would doubtless formulate their own ideas based on knowledge of what the League was likely to accept. <inline font-style="italic">[Leave to continue given.~\</inline></para>
<para>In reply to my question, the right honorable gentleman replied - </para>
<quote>
<para>The Commonwealth Government is kept informed by the Government of the United Kingdom of conversations it has held with the Government of France, but the Commonwealth Government is not free to disclose confidential communications between the governments referred to. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">Should we not consider for a moment the menace of this secrecy? We are asked in this bill to take coercive measures against Italy, although we are not in a position to know on what conditions, if any, it is prepared to withdraw from Abyssinia. We are, in fact, asked to continue to prosecute some form of campaign against the Italian people and the Italian Government, while that government is admittedly carrying on negotiations for peace, the nature of which this Parliament is not permitted to know. May not these terms be acceptable as a solution of the momentous problem? Are we not entitled to say whether they are reasonable or unreasonable? As a sovereign nation, before we commit ourselves to acts of aggression against any country, we are entitled to know what proposals it has put forward which would perhaps make unnecessary the drastic steps contemplated by the Government. Should not this Parliament have knowledge of those communications before it takes the responsibility of policies which, instead of ending the war between Italy and Abyssinia, may, in fact, involve war between Italy and other countries, including Australia? We are kept in ignorance of the offers, whatever their nature may be. We are told to adopt, as a matter of course, a variety of measures which, in fact, will not be applied universally, but for the maintenance of which force will have to be applied, and which, by their very operation will divide the world into two groups, one applying and the other seeking to evade and defeat measures which, in all probability, will widen and extend the present war rather than limit its magnitude and shorten its duration. I\o matter hew attached to the doctrine of collective security this Government may be, this Parliament must calmly recognize that support for collective security, in the realities that confront us, may in the last resort mean war. If, as the AttorneyGeneral says, in effect, Australia is not ready, or is unwilling to face that ultimate conclusion, lip-service to collective security is, not only hypocritical, but also definitely prejudicial to world peace. </para>
<para>The false assumptions advanced by the Government yesterday to draw an analogy between our tariff policy and the application of sanctions, seem to me to be grotesque and entirely illogical. The Attorney-General said, in effect, that if we were not prepared to enforce these sanctions as part of the instrument of collective security, we had no right to impose customs prohibitions of a similar character, designed to serve our domestic needs. The fact is, of course, that when a tariff policy is applied normally, it doe3 not seek to prevent countries from trading with one another; but, by the proposal in the bill, we refuse not only to permit Italian imports into Australia, but also to permit Australian exports to Italy. In addition, we concertedly engage in definite measures to prevent other countries from either exporting to Italy or importing from it. Obviously, the distinction between the two policies is so great that it appears to me to have been more or less absurd for the honorable gentleman to introduce that comparison as an aspect of the case. </para>
<para>The Labour party declares that war is not a remedy for the disease of war.. It affirms that the bill before the House is warlike in its incidence, and has all the deadly significance involved in war and by war. We cannot essay a future in which, by our own act, we become policemen in the disputes of Europe without decisively, and by every implication, also undertaking to become warriors when the conditions become such that police fail, and the use of soldiers follows as a logical consequence. Therefore, this party, which has its roots in the needs of the Australian people, declares that its primary and fundamental responsibility is to safeguard them from the catastrophic hazards involved in the Government's policy, as expressed in this proposed legislation. I shall vote against this bill. It does not contribute to the peace of the world, but it threatens to plunge Australia into the perilous vortex of European conflicts. </para>
<para>Australia, having regard to the need for its own safety, cannot become an arbiter of causes beyond its competence to resolve. This affirmation, I submit, is not disloyal to any one obligation into which we have entered. It is in strict conformity with our adherence to the Pact of Paris, to our human instincts for peace and concord on earth; and it is ' the greatest service which we can render to the welfare of mankind. Australia's contribution to the progress of civilization should be a reaffirmation of its refusal to regard war in any event as a remedy for international disputes. By declaring its wish that peace will be established and by refusing to permit itself to be embroiled in warlike activities, this country will not only set an example to the world, but also give signal service in the direction of the preservation of its own security. </para>
<para>A few years ago, we were the foes of Germany and Austria because of causes not of our own making, and if, to-morrow we become the foes of Italy because of a cause not of our own making, and in another few years become the foes of another European power hecause of conflicts inherent in the racial antagonisms that mark European civilization what must the outlook be for us? If we are to declare, as a matter of formal policy, that we shall act as a balancer in the disputes and conflicts of the old world, we can never hope to preserve this new world as a land of peace. Australia is different and distinctive in character from countries of the old world, and we should occupy a distinctive place in the conflicts of the world. My party and I will oppose this measure because it embroils Australia in European disturbances and conflicts, and makes us a party to whatever war may rage in Europe, irrespective of its origin. We should not be dragged willy-nilly into every European dispute. We should be the sovereign judges of what we should and should not do. This bill is put forward as an alternative to war, but, in its very nature it proposes an act of war. In its consequences it may easily lead to the result which it professedly seeks to avoid. For these reasons my party will oppose it. </para>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1269</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JOM</name.id>
<electorate>West Sydney</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">BEASLEY, John</name>
<name role="display">Mr BEASLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>. - After many weeks of great anxiety and fear of war on the part of the Australian people, in the opinion of myself and my colleagues, by the introduction of this measure we are now being brought to the brink of the most serious situation that has confronted this country since 1914-18. Step by step we have been marched by this Government along a road at the end of which there is no turning but to war. As I proceed I shall endeavour to establish beyond doubt the accuracy of this view. At each successive step in the development of this matter we are being surrounded by legal jargon and legal technicalities as to the meaning of the various articles of the Covenant of the League of Nations. Either this method is deliberately designed or an extraordinary lack of knowledge as to Australia's position in this conflict is displayed. During the last few weeks we have witnessed in this Parliament direct contradictions in the statements of the Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Lyons)</inline> and of the Attorney-General <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Menzies)</inline> as to our powers and obligations in regard to the League Covenant. If this conflict of opinion between the two Ministers means anything at all, it means that the Government really does not know what its powers are or where it is going. For instance, on the 17th October, the Prime Minister said - </para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>The Common wealth, like any other member of Mie League of Nations, will decide for itself how it will gave effect to the imposition of sanctions. As recommendations are made by the League, from time to time, so the Government will deal with them. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">In contrast with this the AttorneyGeneral said yesterday that Australia's freedom to accept or reject the committee's recommendation was "nominal rather than real". Why did not the honorable gentleman tell the House clearly that, short of withdrawing from the League altogether, Australia could not avoid giving effect to economic sanctions^ and that, despite hi3 statement that the character of this bill is economic rather than military, Australia is similarly placed in regard to military sanctions, namely, that there is no escape? The equivocation of the Attorney-General emphasizes what we, on this side, have said from the outset, that sanctions, under article 16 of the Covenant, mean war, and that, by passing legislation such as this, Australia cannot escape imposing economic sanctions; and reliable authorities have stated that economic sanctions mean war, because they require military measures to enforce them. In this regard I mention a statement made by the AttorneyGeneral on the 18th October, when he said - </para>
<quote>
<para>No member State, unless it is able to have its case treated as a special one, can refuse to give effect to a sanction without breaking its obligations under the Covenant. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">There can be no getting away from that fact. If we commit Australia to economic sanctions under article 16 we commit it to military sanctions, and that means war. On the 11th September, speaking before the League of Nations, the British Foreign Secretary, <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Samuel</inline> Hoare, said that Britain stood for the maintenance of the Covenant in its entirety. I stress the word "entirety" to show again that economic sanctions must he followed by military sanctions, with war as 'the inevitable result. It appears to me that this Government is simply an instrument in the hands of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Anthony</inline> Eden and <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Samuel</inline> Hoare, and is willing to accept unreservedly whatever the British Foreign Office decides. The Government is aware of the danger of informing the people too fully. It also knows that,, in the event of war outside Australia, it will not gain the same support as previously, because all thinking people to-day are very suspicious of the motives behind wars. The revelations of the activities of the armament rings, and the knowledge gained from the last war, have caused a very different outlook in the minds of the people. With these factors in mind, I believe the policy now being pursued by the Government is to lull the people into a state of false security, and to pretend that there is nothing to fear from the action now being taken by the Government. This method is not uncommon. If you influence a number of people into the acceptance of a certain line of policy, by showing at the outset an easy way out of a difficulty, and then, stage by stage, carry them along to a certain point, they cannot turn back. Under the guise of protecting the country's honour or of standing up to obligations, the people are then compelled to go on, even if it means war. This bill, ani ihe proclamations already issued in regard to arms, mark the successive steps to which I have referred; and, as the present Italo-Abyssinian struggle develops, so will the demand come from the League for more stern action until Australia will be called upon to co-operate in providing an armed force. In this regard, T. think the most momentous portion of the Attorney-General's speech, which undoubtedly upholds the view that sanctions mean war, was - ff the remote possibility of armed resistance is to deter us from taking economic measures against an aggressor, we may as well admit that the Covenant of the League is futile. </para>
<para class="block">That statement demonstrates, without a doubt, that the Government's policy is to go ahead, whatever the cost - in the words of the 'Prime Minister, "up to the hilt ". I refuse, and so do my colleagues, to be drawn into the wretched consequences that will eventually arise from what are claimed to be our obligations under the Covenant. "We warn those who are against war, but are unable to visualize what the future holds, that if they accept the Government's course as one of security, the dangers will swiftly disillusion them. </para>
<para>In dealing with the question of economic and financial sanctions, we must, apart from the principle they involve, take into account the circumstances in which they are to be applied. It is granted that a state of war exists between two members of the League, and that the League Council has declared Italy to be the aggressor and to have violated the Covenant, article 1(5 of which mainly provides the means to deal with such an aggressor. </para>
<para>We can agree that the League is serious in its efforts to deal with a country that has violated its obligations. Having agreed, therefore, to deal with Italy, it proposes to apply the provisions of article 16. It is our opinion that the full significance and meaning of the effect of the application of this article must be faced : that there is only one view that can be taken, namely, that the application of economic sanctions to a certain stage only is a mere bluff unless the nations concerned are prepared to enforce the application of sanctions if resistance is offered by Italy. </para>
<para>The following authorities are useful and helpful in assessing what the future holds as the result of the action now being taken by the Government. Foremost among these is a member of the Cabinet itself, the right honorable the Minister for Health <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Hughes),</inline> who, in a book, <inline font-style="italic">Australia and War To-day: The Price of Peace,</inline> made available only yesterday, writes as follows: - </para>
<quote>
<para>
<inline font-style="italic">AM</inline>effective sanctions must be supported by adequate force. Economic sanctions which do not materially hamper Italy's warlike operations are not likely to deter her from aggression. If sanctions that cut off her supplies of food and raw materials and threaten her line of communication are applied, she will use every means to compel the nations responsible to abandon them. This means resort to force. Every British ship that attempted to run , the gauntlet between Gibraltar and Suez would be exposed to great risks. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">I trust the Minister for Defence will remember that when I recall his stubborn silence regarding the presence of H.M.A.S. <inline font-style="italic">Australia</inline> in the Mediterranean. The author continues - . . an economic blockade is an act of war. It cannot be imposed without adequate armed force in reserve; the power against whom it is directed will regard? it as an act of war and those who impose it as its enemies. The imposition of an economic boycott is war, and must almost inevitably lead to armed conflict. Assuming that Italy decides to persist in her thrust into Abyssinia, she is not likely to tamely submit to an economic blockade, but will endeavour to break through it. This, of course, means war. </para>
<para>The League is in grave danger of being once again humiliated ; its utter helplessness in the face of crises: its inability to ensure security of its members and to maintain the peace of the world once again become increasingly evident. What the outcome will be remains to be seen. One thing is certain: no effective steps can be taken unless backed by an adequate armed force. As M. Laval has hastened to make quite clear that France is not prepared to support whatever economic sanctions the League may decide to impose by" military force, it is quite clear that unless Britain is prepared to act alone, Mussolini lias nothing to fear. </para>
<para class="block">The difference of opinion which exists in regard to the many statements made in this House is sufficient to warrant the honorable members on this side in declaring that it is obvious that the Government does not understand its real obligations or in what direction it is heading. The right honorable gentleman who has published those comments is a member of the Cabinet, and has access to information denied to honorable members on this side of the House. Therefore, when he proceeds to analyse the circumstances surrounding this dispute and endeavours to place before the Australian people what, in his opinion, the application of sanctions means, his dictum cannot be ignored. As a matter of fact, the right honorable gentleman's contention supports the case which the Leader of the Opposition and I have made on this issue. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1271</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JTY</name.id>
<electorate>BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
<party>CP; LP from 1944; LCL from 1951; LP from 1954</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CAMERON, Archie</name>
<name role="display">Mr ARCHIE CAMERON</name>
</talker>
<para>- If that is the contention of the right honorable member, he should not remain in the Cabinet. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1271</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JOM</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">BEASLEY, John</name>
<name role="display">Mr BEASLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>- We will watch developments and so will the people of Australia. At this stage, owing to the comments of the Minister for Health <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Hughes),</inline> their attention will be focussed on this matter in a more forcible manner than would otherwise be the case. I submit that should Britain decide to act alone, Australia will become involved, because the Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Lyons)</inline> has committed us to stand by Britain "up to the hilt". </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<para>My next authority is the Chief Justice, <inline font-weight="bold">Sir John</inline> Latham, whose views on this matter have received wide publicity, and are known to honorable members. While the Attorney-General admitted the interpretation given by <inline font-weight="bold">Sir John</inline> Latham as to the effect of sanctions - realizing that he could not afford to let the statement go unanswered - he must admit that his answer to it was alarmingly weak. The Attorney-General tried to make honorable members believe that economic sanctions would not in themselves produce war, and, therefore, could not be blamed for causing war, but said that war might result from a subsequent act of aggression by Italy; and the honorable member for Dalley <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Rosevear)</inline> interjected at the time, "Because that country objects to being starved ". That sums up very well the probable effect of economic sanctions. I -now propose to quote from the <inline font-style="italic">North American Review,</inline> which, in a recent issue, stated - </para>
<quote>
<para>The fact that boycotts, embargoes and other economic sanctions are more likely to lead to war than to peace is widely ignored by wellintentioned people who forget that any upstanding nation, if forced to choose between being destroyed in war or being reduced to economic slavery, will take the more heroic alternative. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">In further support of my contention that economic sanctions cannot result in anything but Avar, I quote the following extract from last month's <inline font-style="italic">Round Table.</inline> a quarterly review of the politics of the British commonwealth of nations: - </para>
<quote>
<para>Coercive neutrality and economic sanctions are often put forward ... as an alternative to the use of military sanctions. They are -so only if the aggressor is prepared to submit to them; if he is not, his readiness to go to waT will always overtrump the neutrals' unwillingness to go to war. Still less can we base our policy on the assumption that the meru threat of economic sanctions will be enough to prevent war. The least exercise of sanctions, even though they are purely economic, is an attempt to coerce a sovereign State against its will, and may, therefore, lead to war. However attached we may be to peace; however anxious to restrict sanctions to measures short of war, we must recognize that support for collective- security may, in the last resort, mean war. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">Earlier in my speech, I quoted the opinion of the Minister for Health <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Hughes)</inline> in regard to the possibility of Britain acting alone. No supporter of sanctions can feel very sure about the attitude of Prance. There is much yet to be disclosed in regard to her recent relations* with Italy, apart altogether from internal problems confronting the French Government. It is quite conceivable that Britain may be led practically alone into this conflict, which would mean that Australia also would be involved. Just what would be the outcome of a situation of that kind can easily be imagined, and it is certain that the dispute would assume a much greater importance than the one at present confined to Abyssinia. </para>
<para>The Attorney-General tried to support his plea for collective action by citing a number of resolutions carried in 1921, and allegedly supplementary to the League Covenant. He referred to certain countries which were then outside the League, and made particular reference to Germany. He said that, in 1925, Germany had, in effect, agreed to accept those resolutions, and to support whatever the League might decide in respect of them. Every honorable member will readily agree that condition's in Germany to-day are entirely different from those which obtained in 1925.. In 1926, I was in Germany, and among many other places, visited the Krupp Armament Works, at Essen. While discussing general problems with a representative of these works it very quickly became apparent to me that the overmastering desire, of the German people was to regain the trade which they had lost as the result of the war, and they believed that the only way in which this could be done was to get back once more on a normal footing with the other nations of Europe. They felt that one way in which they could help to break clown the barriers which had been erected against them by the Versailles Treaty and the hostility of other nations arising out of the war was to become associated with the League of Nations, and the countries which formed that League. It is clear that the German people, in that frame of mind, would be. willing to endorse any resolutions emanating from the League or its members, which, in their opinion, might help to restore them to their former position. I remind honorable members, however, that tie position has changed materially since then. Now the leaders of Germany are watching this dispute very closely, they being just as anxious, to pursue a policy of colonial expansion as Italy is. Austria, Hungary and Albania have refused to associate themselves with the League decision in regard to Italy, and Germany is waiting, ready to throw its weight on "whatever side is most likely to suit its purpose. Bearing these things in mind, and remembering the uncertain attitude of France, I repeat that it is quite likely that Britain may find itself alone in a. conflict with Italy. </para>
<para>The armament rings of Britain and Europe are playing an important part in this dispute. In a speech delivered on the 14th November, of last year, at Southampton, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Ramsay</inline> MacDonald stated - </para>
<quote>
<para>I shall never forget when, immediately after the war, I visited the Dardanelles, and saw broken and discarded Turkish guns pointing towards the shore on which our men had hung so long by their eyebrows. On those guns were brass labels bearing the name of a British armament firm. </para>
</quote>
<para>That statement was published in the Sydney <inline font-style="italic">Sunday Sun,</inline> and may be verified by honorable members. </para>
<para>When stressing the need for collective action, the Attorney-General said that, unless Australia were prepared to accept the proposals emanating from the Sanctions Committee, we should have to face the prospect of further rivalry in armaments, which -would go on unchecked and uncontrolled as in the past. It must be evident to everybody that the armaments race is now in progress. It is to-day unchecked and uncontrollable. As indicating the immense cost of munitions of war, let me- point out that, during the third battle of Ypres, which took place during the summer and autumn of 1917,. the British army fired 4,283,550 shells,, costing £22,000,000, in the preliminary bombardment before the battle opened. The British Ministry for Munitionsexpended £672,164,933 during 1917-1918. There was a time when the British Government was spending over £7,000,000- a day, and, let it be remembered that the profits of the armament firms during the greater part of the war amounted to 20- per cent. According to a statement made by Arthur Henderson, President of the Disarmament Conference of 1933, themilitary expenditure of 61 countries during the previous four or five years reached the immense total of more than £1.000,000,000 a year. Australia's expenditure on armamentsduring the last three years has amounted to nearly £13,000,000. A consideration of these things must inevitably fill think. ing people in Australia, and throughout the world, with distrust and contempt for those who speak of peace and disarmament with their tongues in their cheeks. </para>
<para>The Attorney-General made great play on the point, that while Britain had imposed sanctions by an- order in council,.. and New Zealand had passed an act authorizing in general terms the application of sanctions, the Commonwealth Government had proceeded by a special bill. He said that regulations under the bill could be disallowed either by this House or by the Senate. He knows well that with the weight of numbers behind the Government, any motion to disallow a regulation would be crushingly defeated. In effect, the Government has made an empty gesture, and its purpose is, when this bill goes through, to impose sanctions knowing that there is no risk of its programme being upset in any way. </para>
<para>The bill provides the machinery for putting into effect in Australia whatever instructions are received from the British Government. Clause 5 reminds us of the days of the Wai- Precautions Act. It states that : " where it appears to a Justice of the Peace that an offence has been, or is likely to be, committed " he may issue a warrant to an officer who can search premises and examine books or documents of any person or firm. This is the first step in what might easily become a reign of terror, and is a sample of what Australia may expect when it becomes involved in the war to which economic sanctions will inevitably lead. </para>
<para>The gravity of the present situation cannot be overlooked. Under the pretence of honouring our obligations to the League of Nations, the Government seems determined that Australia shall again be dragged into the quarrels of the old world, and the final result no man dare foretell. The League has gradually developed into an instrument which is used by certain powers to maintain their economic and commercial supremacy. It has been proved to be entirely inconsistent in the application of its Covenant to countries which, in the past., have violated their obligations. The abject failure of the League to deal with Japan when that nation launched its policy of imperialism to secure Manchuria branded it either as impotent or as an organization to serve the interests of the major powers, of which Japan is one. The same position arose in the Gran Chaco war between Paraguay and Bolivia, and its silent acquiescence in the decision of Herr Hitler on the 16th March to scrap the Treaty of Versailles and introduce conscription, was further evidence of its failure as an instrument for the preservation of peace. Finally, the events which have transpired in the present dispute have been such that it is no wonder that there are extreme doubts as to the genuineness of the League's purpose. The League has 'become the plaything of clever diplomats whose outlook is measured, not in terms of the general welfare of mankind, but rather in the sordid business of profit and gain. The attitude of organized Labour in this matter is inherently traditional. Its pioneers have always fought and struggled against war. And as the policy upon' which the Government is now embarked must lead to conflict, we of this generation, whose privilege it is to speak for the great Labour movement, will take up the cudgels on behalf of peace with the same spirit and determination, and use all our resources to prevent the flower of the manhood of this country from being again sacrificed on a foreign battlefield. The supporters of the Government may argue as they choose and quote all the authorities that they can find to support their attitude. But they cannot baulk the application of ordinary commonsense to the plain situation facing Australia to-day. Arms, munitions, and other materials are to be made available to one of the combatants. Is it likely that the other 'belligerent will fold its arms and fallow these instruments to be conveyed unhampered to its enemy? Ships transporting essential raw materials destined for Abyssinia will go from Australia, as from other parts of the world, and they will be manned- 'by members of the Australian mercantile marine. At any stage of the voyage they may 'be intercepted by a warship belonging to the nation against whom the sanctions are operating, and they may <inline font-style="italic">he</inline> sent to the .bottom of the sea. That act would' be construed as hostile to Australia and would lead to war. We do not want war. We cannot afford another war. Let us not mislead ourselves on this subject, regardless of what overseas diplomats may say. Italy is certain to take some action to resist economic extinction. By the very .presence of H,M.A.S. <inline font-style="italic">Australia</inline> in the Mediterranean the Commonwealth would he a target for Italy's retaliation. </para>
<para class="block">Only one false move will call the nations to arms and in the present mood of international diplomacy, it would be but days before the world was ablaze. Australia would 'be drawn into the vortex of war. If Parliament passes this bill, it will have put Australia into the front line of attack against Italy. The succeeding stages in the application of sanctions will rapidly follow, and once morewe shall have the sad duty of providing for war widows, as was the case only yesterday in regard to the bereaved of the Great War. The experiences of the last conflict were more than enough; let them he our lesson. Our appeal is to those who went through the horrors of war - in fact to all who have any regard for the preservation of Australian manhood. - to put the brake on this Government's proposals; force it to check its reckless course before it is too late, and keep Australia out of the intrigues of the older world, the machinations of the armament rings, and the greed for gain which imperialism breeds. The Labour party opposed the preliminary stages of this bill, and will contest every successive stage because we are convinced that sanctions mean war. Therefore Australia must hold aloof. </para>
<para class="block">Declaration of Urgency. </para>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1274</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>N76</name.id>
<electorate>Kooyong</electorate>
<party>UAP</party>
<role>AttorneyGeneral</role>
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MENZIES, Robert</name>
<name role="display">Mr MENZIES</name>
</talker>
<para>. - I declare this bill an urgentbill. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<division>
<division.header>
<time.stamp />
<para>Question - That the bill be considered an urgent bill - put. The House divided. (Mr. Speaker. - Hon. G. J. Belt.)</para>
</division.header>
<division.data>
<ayes>
<num.votes>30</num.votes>
<title>AYES</title>
</ayes>
<noes>
<num.votes>24</num.votes>
<title>NOES</title>
</noes>
</division.data>
<para>Majority . . 6 </para>
<para class="block">
<graphic href="147331193511014_21_1_3_P.jpg" />
</para>
<para>AYES</para>
<para class="block">
<graphic href="147331193511014_21_1_1_A.jpg" />
</para>
<para>NOES</para>
<para class="block">
<graphic href="147331193511014_21_1_2_N.jpg" />
</para>
<division.result>
<para>Question so resolvedin the affirmative. </para>
</division.result>
</division>
</subdebate.1>
<para class="block">Allotment of Time. </para>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1274</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>N76</name.id>
<electorate>Kooyong</electorate>
<party>UAP</party>
<role>AttorneyGeneral</role>
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MENZIES, Robert</name>
<name role="display">Mr MENZIES</name>
</talker>
<para>.- I move- </para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>That the time allotted in connexion with the bill be as follows: - </para>
<list type="loweralpha">
<item label="(a)">
<para>For the second reading until9 o'clock p.m. on Thursday, the 7th November. </para>
</item>
<item label="(b)">
<para>For the committee stage until 11.15 o'clock p.m. on Thursday, the 7th November. </para>
</item>
<item label="(c)">
<para>For the remaining stages until 11.45 o'clock p.m. on Thursday, the 7th November. </para>
</item>
</list>
</quote>
<para>The time allotted for the consideration of the remaining stages of the bill is not, I think, unduly limited. We have the remainder of to-day, and the whole of two sitting days of next week until 11.45 p.m. on Thursday. For reasons already stated, the House will not assemble on Tuesday. Otherwise, it would have been necessary to fix Wednesday night for the expiration of the discussion, but because the first sitting day ofnext week . is Wednesday, I have altered the motion that I originally intended to move to provide for the consideration of the measure to occupy the whole of Wednesday and Thursday until 11.45 p.m. </para>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1274</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>009FQ</name.id>
<electorate>Fremantle</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CURTIN, John</name>
<name role="display">Mr CURTIN</name>
</talker>
<para>.- I hope that the House will not agree to the motion. The application of the guillotine to this measure appears to me to be entirely unwarranted. There is no absolute urgency about this measure. Even if we pass the billby next week it will not take effect against Italy until the date of its proclamation. Between the passing and the proclamation of the measure, there must he a long in- tel val. and under these circumstances the deliberative character of this chamber ought not to be sacrificed to the desires of the Government to have the bill treated as an urgent one. No other measure considered hy Parliament this session has been subjected to the application of the guillotine; yet, curiously enough, this is the most important measure that the legislature has been invited to consider. </para>
</talk.start>
<para>It is nonsense to say that it is necessary to curtail the rights of members of Parliament to discuss this measure. Every honorable member of this Parliament has to justify his actions in this chamber to the country, and I would he surprised if members should calmly vote for or against this measure without giving some indication of their reasons. The fact that it is proposed to allow two days of next week for the discussion of this bill does not mean that the time allotted will be sufficient. If the time allotted is sufficient there is no necessity for the guillotine. If two days is not sufficient, the application of the guillotine is a distinct infringement of the rights of honorable members to discuss what is indeed a momentous hill. I protest emphatically against the application of the guillotine to this measure. </para>
<para class="italic">
<inline font-style="italic">Sitting suspended from 12.^5 to 2.15 p.m.</inline>
</para>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1275</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JOM</name.id>
<electorate>West Sydney</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">BEASLEY, John</name>
<name role="display">Mr BEASLEY</name>
</talker>
<para>. - The House, having agreed that the bill shall be regarded as sin urgent measure, the Attorney-General <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Menzies)</inline> has moved that certain times be allotted to discuss it. No reasons have been advanced as to why the Government regards the bill as urgent and the deductions which honorable members will be compelled to make must be purely speculative. We do not think that the measure is sufficiently urgent to necessitate the imposition of a time limit. We all must agree that of all the measures which have come before this Parliament during this session, or in fact since the great war, this must be considered the most important. From time to time we are asked to deal with many problems of an internal character involving the welfare of our own people, but as this measure carries us into a wider sphere it is the most important which this Parliament has had to discuss for many years. It is unreasonable to suggest that each of the 75 members of this chamber will have an opportunity in the limited time provided to speak on the bill. It may be said that some honorable members will not wish to exercise their right, but they should have the opportunity to speak if they so desire. If honorable members refrain from speaking they will be criticized in their electorates. Prior to moving that the bill be declared an urgent measure, the Attorney-General said in his secondreading speech that it was proposed to provide some breathing space between the passing of the bill and the application of the sanctions provided. This view should be sufficient to warrant that time be allowed to honorable members to discuss this measure. There should not he any undue haste. The imposition of a time limit on a measure of such importance is unwarranted, and we intend to oppose the motion. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1275</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KJQ</name.id>
<electorate>Hunter</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">JAMES, Rowland</name>
<name role="display">Mr JAMES</name>
</talker>
<para>.- I oppose the motion moved by the Attorney-General <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Menzies).</inline> There has been a great deal of time wasted in discussing measures brought before this House. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1275</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JOS</name.id>
<electorate>DARWIN, TASMANIA</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">BELL, George</name>
<name role="display">Mr SPEAKER (Hon G J Bell</name>
</talker>
<para>- </para>
</talk.start>
<para class="block">The honorable member is not in order in reflecting on the proceedings of the House. </para>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1275</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KJQ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">JAMES, Rowland</name>
<name role="display">Mr JAMES</name>
</talker>
<para>- Honorable members on this side of the chamber have attempted to expedite business by moving the closure to measures which they considered unimportant. A measure such as this, liable to involve Australia in war, should be debated without the imposition of a time limit. Some time ago it was arranged that the House should meet on Tuesdays of alternate weeks, but because the Melbourne Cup is to be run next Tuesday, the Government has decided that the House shall not meet until Wednesday. It is the duty of honorable members to attend Parliament to consider the business awaiting attention instead of being present at a race meeting; but apparently there has been some collaboration between certain interests. Persons who despatched urgent messages to the Prime Minister to expedite the passage of this measure are* now within the precincts of the House to urge the Government to proceed «s speedily as possible with the imposinon of sanctions. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1276</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>10000</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">SPEAKER, Mr</name>
<name role="display">Mr SPEAKER</name>
</talker>
<para>- The honorable member must discuss the motion before the Chair, which is the time allotted for the various stages of the bill. </para>
</talk.start>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1276</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KJQ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">JAMES, Rowland</name>
<name role="display">Mr JAMES</name>
</talker>
<para>- In view of the importance of the subject we should be informed why the Government is so anxious to dispose of this bill within such a short period. There seems to bo an unholy alliance between the Government and certain other sections of the community. Honorable members on this side of the chamber have not deliberately held up any measure, but as this bill is infinitely more important than others which have been fully debated, we are justified in asking that a longer period be allowed for its discussion. Under the limitation of time proposed, not one-fourth of the members of the political group to which I belong will be allowed to speak before the guillotine falls. I protest strongly against the imposition of a time limit on such an important bill. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1276</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JTY</name.id>
<electorate>BARKER, SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
<party>CP; LP from 1944; LCL from 1951; LP from 1954</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CAMERON, Archie</name>
<name role="display">Mr ARCHIE CAMERON</name>
</talker>
<para>. - No more important and farreaching measure has been brought before this chamber since I was elected a member last year. Considering the urgency of the bill, the Government has been extremely liberal in allowing until 9 p.m. on Thursday next for its discussion. It could be said that the measure is sufficiently urgent to justify the House meeting on other than the ordinary sitting days to enable Parliament to deal with it. We are lagging behind some other British countries in passing legislation of this character,' because if the press reports are correct, the New Zealand Parliament has already passed a similar measure without a dissentientvoice. Honorable members cannot say that this measure has been sprung upon them suddenly, because the subjectmatter of the bill has been debated directly and indirectly ever since Parliament re-assembled on the 23rd September. The question of what would happen over the week-end has been the subject of some remarkable predictions on the part of the Opposition, none of which has been fulfilled. This is a subject upon which the Government has the right to expect Par liament to come -to an early decision. I doubt whether any member of either , branch of the legislature has not already considered the subject very carefully, and made up his mind how he intends to vote. I do not think that any honorable member is entitled to plead for an extension of time in order to form an opinion. In regard to matters pf this kind some honorable members would not in any circumstances have an opportunity to speak. On one or two occasions, when I should like to have debated a 'bill before the House, I was precluded from doing so. That is only to be expected. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>1276</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KYI</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />