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19091008_senate_3_52.xml
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19091008_senate_3_52.xml
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<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<hansard xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd" version="2.1" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
<session.header>
<date>1909-10-08</date>
<parliament.no>3</parliament.no>
<session.no>4</session.no>
<period.no>0</period.no>
<chamber>SENATE</chamber>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
<proof>0</proof>
</session.header>
<chamber.xscript>
<para>Senate. </para>
<business.start>
<day.start>1909-10-08</day.start>
<para>The President took the chair at 10.30 a.m., and read prayers. </para>
</business.start>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>PERSONAL EXPLANATION</title>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
<type>personal explanation</type>
</debateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JXJ</name.id>
<electorate>WESTERN AUSTRALIA</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator NEEDHAM</name>
</talker>
<para>- I desire to refer to the <inline font-style="italic">Age</inline> report of an incident which occurred here last night, with no desire to resurrect it, but merely to point out that, in the report, I have not been fairly dealt with. It says - " <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Needham</inline> made an interjection which was inaudible." At the close of the incident I rose and distinctly stated that I had made no interjection which would reflect upon the honour or integrity of <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Neild.</inline> When a newspaper takes upon itself the duty of reporting such incidents I think that in common justice to all concerned my statement should have been published, otherwise it looks as if I had been the culprit throughout the piece. I thought it well to draw attention to the unfair manner in which the incident was reported in the <inline font-style="italic">Age.</inline> I hope that in the future when newspapers report such matters they will deal out even-handed justice to all concerned. . </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>ENTRANCE TO THE NAVY</title>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K6M</name.id>
<electorate>TASMANIA</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CLEMONS, John</name>
<name role="display">Senator CLEMONS</name>
</talker>
<para>- I desire to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council, by way of suggestion, whether the Government will consider the desirability of issuing in a simple form, information and instructions for all persons who may desire to enter the Navy, whether in Australia or elsewhere? I do not wish to elaborate the question, but perhaps I may be permitted to point out that at present any one who wishes to get into the Navy, either here or in England, experiences considerable difficulty in ascertaining the necessary steps to be taken. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>Free Trade</party>
<role>Vice-President of the Executive Council</role>
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
</talker>
<para>- I take the honorable senator to mean by his suggestion the issue of a pamphlet or handbook with simple directions to those who may desire to enter the British Navy. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K6M</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CLEMONS, John</name>
<name role="display">Senator Clemons</name>
</talker>
<para>- Or the Australian Squadron. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
</talker>
<para>- The suggestion certainly commends itself to me, and I shall have very much pleasure in bringing it under the notice of the Minister of Defence. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K7V</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">SYMON, Josiah</name>
<name role="display">Senator Sir Josiah Symon</name>
</talker>
<para>- A regulation, not a pamphlet, would be very useful. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>PAPERS</title>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
<type>papers</type>
</debateinfo>
<para>MINISTERS laid upon the table the following papers : - </para>
<quote>
<para>Federal Capital. - Proposed Site at YassCanberra. - Further correspondence respecting the selection of territory and proposed site for the city (dated 28th September, 1909). </para>
</quote>
<para>Ordered to be printed. </para>
<para>Lands Acquisition Act 1906 - Maribyrnong, Victoria : Defence purposes. - Notification of the acquisition of land. </para>
<para>Post and Telegraph Act1901 - </para>
<para>Amendment of General, Postal, and General Postal Regulations. - Statutory Rules 1909, No. 104. </para>
<para>Regulations for securing the telegraph lines or works of the Postmaster-General from interference by house removals or other works. - Statutory Rules 1909, No. 109. </para>
<para>Amendment of Postal, Telegraphic, and Money Orders Regulations. - Statutory Rules 1909, No.111. </para>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>CRUISERS</title>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K6M</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">CLEMONS, John</name>
<name role="display">Senator CLEMONS</name>
</talker>
<para>- I desire to ask the Vice-President of the Executive Council if he can furnish the Senate, either now or presently, with some particulars as to the fighting value of the cruisers which we have heard described as being part of the proposed Australian Squadron, under the title of cruisers belonging to the <inline font-style="italic">Bristol</inline> type. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate />
<party>Free Trade</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
</talker>
<para>- I am not in a position to furnish the information offhand, but I shall take steps to procure it. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>SEAT OF GOVERNMENT ACCEPTANCE BILL</title>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
<type>bill</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>Second Reading</title>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4297</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate>New South WalesVicePresident of the Executive Council</electorate>
<party>Free Trade</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
</talker>
<para>. - I move - </para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para class="block">That this Bill be now read a second time. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">I need hardly tell honorable senators that I appreciate the circumstances which enable me to be so closely identified with a matter which has been for many years before Parliament, and which, perhaps, in one way may be regarded as of special interest to my State. At the same time, quite apart from my personal feelings, I would point nut that in bringing forward this Bill the Government are merely seeking to give effect to the wishes of Parliament as expressed by an Act passed in the closing days of last session. In so doing, they are, I might remind honorable senators, following the excellent lead set by two previous Administrations. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4298</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K0F</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
<name role="display">Senator Pearce</name>
</talker>
<para>- By two? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4298</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
</talker>
<para>-By the ReidMcLean Administration, which made an effort to give effect to a Bill passed in 1904, and by the Fisher Administration, which certainly did, in the closing days of last session by the introduction of a. Bill, seek to carry this matter further towards finality. " I can only express the hope that the decision of honorable senators on the Bill will place the matter at that stage when we can reasonably say that finality has been reached. I do not propose to-day to ask their attention for ari' undue time, because it appears to me that the question now is resolved into very narrow limits. I shall endeavour to make my statement as brief and business-like as I can. I ask honorable senators to bear in mind what is the main purpose of the Bill. I might summarize what has taken place since we last had before us a proposition dealing with the Capital Site. I would remind honorable senators, as a preface that, so far, Parliament has never expressed its wish, or arrived at any determination as to the Federal Territory, nor has it definitely determined the site of the city itself. What it did do by the Bill passed last year was to indicate a locality within which it thought that the city should be situated, and necessarily, by so doing it indicated a point round which the territory should lap. The last Government proceeded with commendable promptitude to give effect to that Bil-1. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Surveyor</inline> Scrivener was immediately instructed to proceed to the spot with a view to obtaining such a report as would enable the Minister, and later on the Parliament, to arrive at a determination'. I desire to briefly refer to what has been the subject of some controversy with our legal friends, and that is as to the exact order of procedure under section 125 of the Constitution. I do not propose to enter into that controversy, but merely to indicate what appears to me to be the point about which it ranged, and that was as to whether or not the territory should be selected before the site of the city could be determined, or whether we could select the site cf the city first, and determine the territory afterwards. No doubt, from a legal stand-point it may be an interesting point, but to my mind the whole thing presented .itself in the way of two men approaching a turnstile through which only one could pass at a time, both being desirous of going through, and it not mattering materially which of them went through first. It seemed to me equally immaterial as to which step we should take first in this matter. It is quite obvious that it would have been impossible for Parliament to actively determine the boundaries of the territory without being satisfied beforehand that there was within the territory some site suitable for a city. On the other hand it would have been equally foolish to have definitely decided on a city site without paying some regard to the territorysurrounding it. It seems to me that these two factors had to be considered together. Parliament having passed an Act indicating generally a locality, the previous Government, through the Minister of Home Affairs, deputed <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener</inline> to proceed on to the land with a view to making inquiries and surveys. I should like to show that the instructions given to that gentleman were of a character to which no possible exception could be taken. Whilst they directed his attention to those points which perhaps were of major importance, and which would naturally suggest themselves to the mind of any one, he was left the freest possible scope in the discharge of his duties. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4298</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K3G</name.id>
<electorate>SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
<party>ALP</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">RUSSELL, William</name>
<name role="display">Senator W RUSSELL</name>
</talker>
<para>- How long was he left in that untrammelled position ? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4298</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
</talker>
<para>- Up to the present moment. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4298</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K3G</name.id>
<electorate>SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
<party>ALP</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">RUSSELL, William</name>
<name role="display">Senator W RUSSELL</name>
</talker>
<para>- I am glad to hear that. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4298</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
</talker>
<para>- <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Mahon's</inline> minute instructed <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener</inline> to proceed on the following lines: - </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<quote>
<para>To make a thorough topographical investigation of the Yass-Canberra district, with the object of placing such facts before the Minister as will enable Parliament to decide on the most suitable territory for the purposes of the Seat of Government within the district referred to, and that the work should be divided into three phases : - </para>
<list type="loweralpha">
<item label="(a)">
<para>Preliminary reconnaissance, covering the whole of the district, and. embracing the catchment area of the water supply governing the same. </para>
<list type="decimal">
<item label="(4)">
<para>Topographical investigation of that portion or portions of the district which, during the reconnaissance, are shown to possess the requisite characteristics for the Commonwealth territory. </para>
</item>
</list>
</item>
<item label="(c)">
<para>Contour survey of the suggested site or sites for the Federal Capital City. </para>
</item>
</list>
</quote>
<para>The Minister then summarized the essentials of the territory in the following manner : - </para>
<list type="loweralpha">
<item label="(a)">
<para>That it includes a site or sites possessing the necessary topographical characteristics for the Federal Capital. </para>
</item>
<item label="(b)">
<para>That it includes the catchment area of the water supply for the Capital - such water supply must be of sufficient magnitude to place the question of volume at all seasons and purity beyond doubt. </para>
</item>
</list>
<para>There wereother references in the minute dealing with sanitation and accessibility. Proceeding on these instructions, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener,</inline> two months later, made a report, which has been made available to honorable senators. I do not propose to detain the Senate by reading the report, but I may be permitted to refer to one or two of its principal features. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener</inline> made an inspection of the area embraced by YassCanberra, and approved of the Canberra site, which commended itself most to his mind of the several sites which had been under inspection. He reported - </para>
<quote>
<para>The general level of the country about Canberra lies between 1,900 and 2,000 feet, while some of the higher hills reach an altitude of nearly2,800 feet above sea level. The site is intersected by the Molonglo River, a stream with a catchment area of about 700 square miles. </para>
<para>A city located at Canberra would be visible on approach for many miles; streets with easy gradients would be readily designed ; while prominent hills of moderate altitude present suitable sites for the principal public buildings. </para>
</quote>
<para>With regard to the water supply, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener</inline> stated - </para>
<quote>
<para>The Cotter River will provide a supply of perennially clear and pure water, sufficient for the domestic and civic requirements of a population up to 200,000, with a <inline font-style="italic">per capita</inline> consumption of not less than 100 gallons a day. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">All these calculations dealing with water supply are on the basis of a consumption of 100 gallons per head per day. To show that these estimates are on a safe and conservative side, I would point out that the consumption in Sydney is less than 40 gallons per head per day, and in Melbourne 59^ gallons. It will therefore be seen that these calculations are based on more than twice the daily consumption in Sydney, and nearly twice the consumption in Melbourne. That part of the report deals more with the site of the city. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener</inline> went on to deal with the territory, but I propose to leave that to a later portion of my address. On the receipt of the report, the Minister constituted an Advisory Board, consisting of Colonel Miller, Colonel Owen, Colonel Vernon, and <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener.</inline> After an inquiry, the Board agreed generally with <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener's</inline> report, but asked that certain contour levels should be made, suggested an exploration as to a practical route from the Capitalsite to the sea, and generally desired further information. The Minister promptly instructed <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener</inline> to that effect, and he proceeded to ascertain additional levels. He reported in due course that he had taken contour surveys of 35 miles of levels at the heights of 1,825, 1,850, 1,875,1,900. 1,950, and 2,000 feet, with intermediate levels. He had also made an inspection of the country between Canberra and Jervis Bay with a view to determining the probable route for a railway between these places, and found that from about the 168- mile post on the Goulburn-Cooma railway line to Jervis Bay, a practicable railway, with a ruling gradient not worse than one in forty, and probably as flat as one in fifty, could be obtained. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4299</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K0F</name.id>
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<name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
<name role="display">Senator Pearce</name>
</talker>
<para>- Can the Minister give the length of that line? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4299</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
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<party />
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<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
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<para>- The facts appear in <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener's</inline> report. Honorable senators will see at once thatI am not attempting to give the substance, but that I am rather summarizing what has taken place, with a view to leading up to the particular proposition which is really submitted tothe Senate by means of this Bill. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener</inline> also recommended that an area of two square miles at Jervis Bay should be secured by the Commonwealth. As to that, he further reported that the 3 and 5-fathom lines at Jervis Bay lie closer to the shore at the point indicated by him than was usual, and that the portion marked was well sheltered from south-east and easterly gales. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4299</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K78</name.id>
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<party />
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<name role="metadata">ST LEDGER, Anthony</name>
<name role="display">Senator St Ledger</name>
</talker>
<para>- Did <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener</inline> report that the area of two square miles at Jervis Bay would be sufficient? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4299</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
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<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
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<para>- He was not given any indication as to what area at Jervis Bay he was to recommend. He was left free to inquire and recommend what area should be acquired for Commonwealth purposes. I assume that no direction having been given by the Act itself, or by the Minister of Home Affairs, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener</inline> had recommended an area which he thought would be ample. On the supplementary report of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener</inline> being sent on to the Advisory Board by the Minister of Home Affairs, that Board, after consideration, reported generally as follows : - </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<quote>
<para>The site may be briefly described as a rectangular area, the eastern and western boundaries of the northern part resting on the slopes of Mount Ainslie and the Black Mountain, the southern boundary being intersected by the Narrabundah Range, running from Mugga Mugga </para>
<para class="block">Mountain towards the Molonglo River. This river, which flows through the area in a westerly direction, affords facilities for the conservation of water for ornamental purposes. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">I lay emphasis on those words " ornamental purposes." </para>
<para>The whole area is generally suited for building purposes, the feature contours being more marked or bolder on the south of the River Molonglo than on the north. </para>
<para>The area of about 3 miles square was recommended by the Board advisedly in order that the fullest scope may be given for the projection of the city design, and the most effective location of the official centre. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4300</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K9T</name.id>
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<party />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">VARDON, Joseph</name>
<name role="display">Senator Vardon</name>
</talker>
<para>- Does <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener</inline> say anything about building material ? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4300</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
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<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
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<para>- My honorable friend will find that there is a great deal in the reports which I am not venturing to quote now, because I assume that honorable senators will peruse the documents for themselves. Time, of course, is some object? with a House which is so keen on proceeding with business, as the Senate invariably is. Dealing with the important matter of sewerage, the Board stated - </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<quote>
<para>Respecting the sewerage of the proposed Federal Capital City, the Board considered that no engineering difficulties will be encountered in a satisfactory disposal of sewage, and the effluent from treatment works. It will be necessary to make provision for dealing with the storm waters, in which connexion the general fall of the land favours a satisfactory scheme. </para>
<para>The Board advised that there is a supply of perennially clear and pure water in the Cotter River. The catchment area of this river, above the point at which the gauge readings for igo8 were taken, embraces an area of about 0 170 square miles. According to the 1908 records the supply at the point of gaugage is sufficient for the domestic' and civic requirements of a population of 250,000. </para>
</quote>
<para>Those figures are based on the assumption of a supply of 100 gallons per inhabitant per day. The Board further stated that - </para>
<quote>
<para>There are other sources of water supply for power in the Territory, viz., the Molonglo and Queanbeyan Rivers combined, and that in order to regulate the flow of these rivers through the Capital City, and to conserve water for ornamental purposes, the construction of weirs on their upper reaches will be necessary. The total catchment is about 500 square miles. Ornamental water may be conserved at the city by means of a weir at any one of the sites indicated on the map of the contour survey of Canberra. </para>
<para>The Board were of opinion that a practicable route for railway communication can be found between the site of the Federal Capital City and Jervis Bay, but considered that before the locality is finally decided upon an extensive examination of the intervening country should be made, in order that all requirements may be met. </para>
<para>The Board were of opinion that Jervis Bay meets the requirements of the Commonwealth with respect to a proposed port for the capital, and that the area of land proposed by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener</inline> in his report, and situate at the southern extremity of the Bay is the most suitable. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">Honorable senators will notice that I have been summarizing the report of the Advisory Board upon <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener's</inline> report. T. may add that the Board's recommendations embraced an area of approximately 1,000 square miles. Following upon the receipt of this report, the Prime Minister, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Deakin,</inline> opened up communications with the Premier of New South Wales, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Wade,</inline> inviting him to take steps for the surrender of the Territory to the Commonwealth. In doing so, the Prime Minister also invited consideration to two very important matters. One was the vesting in the Commonwealth of the right to secure and transmit electrical power from sources situated outside the Federal Territory ; and the other related to the question of mutual working over railways belonging to each authority. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4300</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K0F</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
<name role="display">Senator Pearce</name>
</talker>
<para>- Was the Prime Minister's inquiry with regard to electrical power due to doubts about obtaining electrical power within the Federal Territory ? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4300</page.no>
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<name.id>KUL</name.id>
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<para>- The Prime Minister made this inquiry probably with a view to meeting objections which, have been,, and may be, raised as to the possibility of obtaining electrical power from the Snowy River, which is outside the proposed Federal area. My honorable friend must admit that there can be no disadvantage in having two strings to one's bow. After some correspondence, and one or two interviews, which took place between the Prime Minister of the Commonwealth and the Premier of New South Wales, and also between the Premier and the Minister of Home Affairs, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Fuller, Mr. Wade</inline> submitted on the 16th. September certain propositions to the Parliament of New South Wales. These propositions, besides dealing with several matters to which I shall refer later on - matters' which I may say relate to either of the proposed areas - suggested some modifications upon the area recommended bv the Advisory Board. The Minister for Home Affairs, having learnt of the suggested modifications, submitted them to the Advisory. Board, which reported, amongst other things, that the modified area suggested was somewhat less than that prescribed in the Act passed by this Parliament. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Wade's</inline> attention having been drawn to that fact, an addi- tional area was included in the modification suggested, making the total area over 900 square miles, so . as to conform with the Federal Act. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4301</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K0F</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
<name role="display">Senator Pearce</name>
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<para>- Is that the only comment -which the Advisory Board made upon the suggested alteration? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4301</page.no>
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<name.id>KUL</name.id>
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<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
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<para>- I am coming to that point immediately. I want now to invite attention to two maps which are hanging upon the wall of this chamber. A glance at them will enable honorable senators to follow my subsequent remarks more clearly. The map on the left hand represents the scheme recommended by the Advisory Board in the first instance. The area has been described as being somewhat .like a horseshoe, but I doubt whether it is entitled to such a. symmetrical comparison. The map on the right represents- the modification suggested by the Parliament of New South Wales. The area coloured on that map is the area which it is proposed by the New South Wales Parliament to vest absolutely in the Commonwealth. The other portion of the map, which is merely edged with red, and which it will be seen was included in the Advisory Board's original proposition, is the area over which the New South Wales' Parliament suggested that the Commonwealth should have complete water rights. I want now to come back to the point at which I broke off just now, and to invite honorable senators to consider what the position is. It is this. We have never yet determined what the Federal Territory is to be. This Bill is submitted to enable Parliament to make such a determination. There are practically two schemes available from which to make a choice - that is, the scheme shown on the map on the left, which represents the Board <inline font-style="italic">'s original</inline> proposition, and, secondly, that which is shown on the map on the right, which represents the modificationsuggested by the Parliament of New South Wales. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4301</page.no>
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<name.id>KLS</name.id>
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<name role="metadata">GIVENS, Thomas</name>
<name role="display">Senator Givens</name>
</talker>
<para>- I understand that we should possess only water rights over the area edged with red on the map? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4301</page.no>
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<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
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<para>- Just so; we should have water rights over that area, with sovereignty rights over the complete area coloured red. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4301</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K0F</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
<name role="display">Senator Pearce</name>
</talker>
<para>- Do I understand that we should have complete control over the Cotter River? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4301</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate />
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<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
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<para>- Whichever scheme is adopted, the Cotter is not disturbed. It will be completely under our jurisdiction. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<para>Moreover, whichever scheme may be adopted, the city site remains the same. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4301</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JVC</name.id>
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<party />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">DOBSON, Henry</name>
<name role="display">Senator Dobson</name>
</talker>
<para>- Has the Advisory Board made any comment upon the suggested alteration? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4301</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
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<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
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<para>- I shall come to that point immediately. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4301</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K7V</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">SYMON, Josiah</name>
<name role="display">Senator Sir Josiah Symon</name>
</talker>
<para>- I understand that the Cotter River is in the Territory coloured red? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4301</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
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<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
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<para>- The Cotter is in the portion which lies immediately to the west in either scheme. I have stated. that there are before the Senate two propositions for consideration, and I accept very fully the responsibility of placing, as far as I am able, the facts in connexion with each before the Senate. At the same time, I wish to make it clear that the Government, having fully considered the matter, have themselves decided which they consider is the better of these alternatives. I should like to add that, personally, when I first approached the subject, I did so with an intangible but, nevertheless, distinct feeling in favour of the proposition of the Board. Probably I entertained that feeling because it was the proposition of the Board, and because I reflected that the Board would probably be free from some influences which might, quite unintentionally, and honestly enough, have influenced the decision of the New- South Wales Parliament. I therefore approached the matter quite conscious of a feeling in that direction, rather than of an inclination to accept the suggestion of the New South Wales Parliament. But, for reasons, which I shall set out later, and which influenced the Government of New South Wales to suggest the modifications to the original scheme, I have come to a. conclusion - which I think the Senate will indorse. - that there are attached to the modified scheme advantages which more than compensate for the presumed disadvantages which might at first sight appear to be present. Before I proceed to deal with these alternative schemes, I should like to quote the resolutions passed by the New South Wales Parliament, and which relate to considerations that are common to both schemes. These resolutions deal with many matters which will have to be considered whichever scheme is adopted, and will form the basis of an agreement between the Commonwealth and the States, to be embodied as the first schedule to this Bill. The position is that an agreement or _ understanding has been arrived at on all the points touched, and is now being cast into legal phraseology by the legal representatives of the States and of the Commonwealth. I am happy to be in a position to say that the whole agreement in all its details has been assented to, except that perhaps there is an additional "i" to dot or "t" to cross. The document will be ready in a day or two, and will, as I have said, be inserted in this Bill. But the Government thought it inadvisable to delay the measure, seeing that the agreement will be printed and placed in the hands of honorable senators before they are called upon to arrive at a decision upon the matter. Dealing now with the resolutions of the New South Wales Parliament, which will form the basis of the agreement now being drawn up, they were these. The New South Wales Parliament agreed that they would - surrender to the Commonwealth, territory containing an area of, approximately, 800 square miles, made up as follows : - </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<list type="loweralpha">
<item label="(a)">
<para>All that area of about 435 square miles shown on <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener's</inline> plan, which lies to the west of the Goulburn to Cooma railway, and includes the city site recommended by the Advisory Board, together with the catchment area of the Cotter River. </para>
</item>
<item label="(b)">
<para>A further area of about 365 square miles, including the catchment areas of the Gudgenby, Naas, and Paddy Rivers, as indicated by red edging on plan marked " G," </para>
<list type="decimal">
<item label="(2)">
<para>That the right of the State to the use and control of the Queanbeyan and Molonglo Rivers and their tributaries, which are indicated on <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Scrivener's</inline> plan, andlie to the east of the Goulburn to Cooma railway, should be subject to the requirements of the Commonwealth. </para>
</item>
<item label="(3)">
<para>That this State is prepared, if so desired by the Commonwealth Parliament, to reserve from sale or lease all Crown lands within the catchment area of the Queanbeyan and Molonglo Rivers. </para>
</item>
<item label="(4)">
<para>That this State should protect from polluting the waters of the Queanbeyan and Molonglo Rivers. </para>
</item>
<item label="(5)">
<para>That the State should surrender to the Commonwealth' an area of about 2 square miles at Jervis Bay. </para>
</item>
<item label="(6)">
<para>That for the purpose of providing access to the sea, the State should grant to the Commonwealth - </para>
</item>
</list>
</item>
<item label="(a)">
<para>the right to construct and maintain a railway or other means of communication from the Seat of Government to territory which shall have been surrendered by the State to the Commonwealth at Jervis Bay; </para>
</item>
<item label="(i)">
<para>the right, on terms to be agreed upon, to cross over or under any State railway, to connect with and run trains over any portion of a State railway. </para>
<list type="decimal">
<item label="(7)">
<para>That the Commonwealth should grant to the State, on terms to be agreed upon, the right to cross overor under, or to connect with and run trains over the railway constructed by the Commonwealth, which establishes communication between the Seat of Government and Jervis Bay. </para>
</item>
<item label="(8)">
<para>That in the event of the Commonwealth constructing a railway within Federal Territory' to the northern boundary thereof, the State shall construct a railway from a point near Yass, on the Great Southern Railway, to join with the said railway. </para>
</item>
<item label="(9)">
<para>That this State should grant to the Commonwealth the right to conduct through State territory to the Seat of Government electrical power from any place to be agreed upon. </para>
</item>
<item label="(10)">
<para>That the surrender of territoryby the </para>
</item>
</list>
</item>
</list>
<para class="block">State should not be deemed a grant of the right to interfere with the reasonable use of the waters of the Murrumbidgee River by the State, or the citizens of the State of New South Wales. </para>
<para class="block">Those resolutions are self-explanatory, with probably two exceptions, to which I propose to refer. The first is that which provides for the control of the Queanbeyan and Molonglo area - that is, the area edged red on the righthand map. Honorable senators will see that what the New South Wales Government have proposed is to transfer a corresponding area absolutely to the Commonwealth and to give full and absolute rights over the water-shed within the area edged red. </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4302</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K0F</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
<name role="display">Senator Pearce</name>
</talker>
<para>- Do not those streams ultimately fall into the Murrumbidgee ? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4302</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
</talker>
<para>- They do. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4302</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K0F</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
<name role="display">Senator Pearce</name>
</talker>
<para>- Do they not pass through territory which will be under the control of the New South Wales Parliament ? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4302</page.no>
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<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate />
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<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
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<para>- The honorable senator means with regard to the Murrumbidgee ? </para>
</talk.start>
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<talker>
<page.no>4302</page.no>
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<name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
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<para>- Suppose we were to use all the waters in the Murrumbidgee and Queanbeyan - would not that be an interference with the rights of citizens of New South Wales? </para>
</talk.start>
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<talk.start>
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<page.no>4302</page.no>
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<para>- I shall make a quotation which will set at rest doubts on that point. A large riparian question is opened up, but the matter is dealt with in the agreement which is being drafted for the consideration of both Governments. With regard to the control of these watersheds, if there should be any doubt in the mind of the honorable senator as to whether the resolution which I have read is full enough, I propose to quote from the speech of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Wade</inline> in introducing the matter in the New South Wales Parliament, and which will show that there was no reservation in his mind, but that it was intended to transfer to the Commonwealth the most complete and absolute rights over the waters in this water-shed <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Wadesaid</inline> - </para>
</talk.start>
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<quote>
<para>We have recognised at all stages, in connexion with the discussion of this matter, that no sound objection can be raised to the Commonwealth having supreme control over the whole of the catchment area, because on the purity of the water and the control of the streams supplying it, is dependent the health and happiness of the people themselves. There is no reason why they should not have the same jurisdiction for protective purposes over the supply of water for domestic use as they have over the city itself. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">That makes it quite clear that the New South Wales Government desired to transfer the water rights over that area absolutely and without any reservation to the Commonwealth. </para>
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<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4303</page.no>
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<name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
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<para>- But a speech will not count for anything when it comes to a question of what are our legal rights. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
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<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4303</page.no>
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<para>- But it will count in the drafting of an agreement. 1 have already stated that it is my duty to place before the Senate all the facts connected with both propositions, which are within my knowledge. At this juncture I am not advocating one more than the other, although I may do so at a later stage. </para>
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<talker>
<page.no>4303</page.no>
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<name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
<name role="display">Senator Lynch</name>
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<para>- The Molonglo watershed seems to have been all alienated. </para>
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</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4303</page.no>
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<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
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<para>- The circumstances may make its acquisition less desirable from om point of view. The other proposal to which I desire to refer is that which secures to New South Wales the reasonable use of the waters of the Murrumbidgee. That reservation is necessary to New South Wales because it has recently launched out upon a large and expensive water scheme at Barren Jack, the whole efficacy of which will be dependent upon the Murrumbidgee. The reservation, therefore, is not merely in the interests of that State, but is one in which the Commonwealth will readily acquiesce. I come now to the alternative schemes themselves, and I propose very briefly to summarize them. The proposition of the Board was for the surrender of 1,000 square miles of territory which is outlined in the irregular area shown upon one of the maps hanging in the chamber. </para>
</talk.start>
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<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4303</page.no>
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<name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
<name role="display">Senator Lynch</name>
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<para>- What is the meaning of the white strip between the two areas? It appears as if New South Wales territory is to intervene between two portions of Federal territory. </para>
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<talk.start>
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<page.no>4303</page.no>
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<para>- If my honorable friend means the small white line which separates the two areas I may tell him that that has been placed there to enable hon orable ' senators to more readily detect where those two areas join. </para>
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<page.no>4303</page.no>
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<name role="metadata">GUTHRIE, Robert</name>
<name role="display">Senator Guthrie</name>
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<para>- Does it not mean that New South Wales will retain the territory which is represented by the white strip on the map, and will not grant the Commonwealth any rights over it ? </para>
</talk.start>
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<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>4303</page.no>
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<para>- Certainly not. The Federal area would abut immediately upon that area over which the Federation would have full water rights. The original proposition of the Board was that the Commonwealth should be ceded a territory embracing 1,000 square miles, and the alternative to-day is that it shall accept an area of 900 square miles, plus water rights over 580 square miles. Of the 900 square miles contained in territory ref erred to in the suggestions emanating from New South Wales, 435 square miles - embracing the area . immediately surrounding the territory - is included in the Board's original proposition. I use the words " suggestions emanating from New South Wales," because I wish to make,it quite clear that the alternative scheme presented by that State is submitted in the best of good faith, and in the most friendly way, in the nature of suggestions. In introducing his proposals to the New South Wales Parliament, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Wade</inline> said - </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<quote>
<para>Our desire at this stage is to put before the Commonwealth Parliament,- by way of suggestion, certain propositions on which we hope will be based the final formal act of surrender of territory, and acceptance by the Commonwealth for the Seat of Government. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">In a further quotation he said - </para>
<quote>
<para>In the first place we recognise that the final determination .of the question under the Constitution rests in the hands of the Commonwealth Parliament. We can only claim to intervene in this question rather by way of suggestion of a helpful character than by way of laying down a proposition for the Commonwealth's acceptance or rejection. </para>
<para>We realize that although we have some responsibility in this matter, it scarcely lies in the hands of the Government to do anything which has the appearance of intrusion into the peculiar sphere of the Commonwealth with regard to the final determination of this question. </para>
</quote>
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<talker>
<page.no>4303</page.no>
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<name.id>KRZ</name.id>
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