19180122_SENATE_7_84.xml

<hansard xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd" version="2.1" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
  <session.header>
    <date>1918-01-22</date>
    <parliament.no>7</parliament.no>
    <session.no>2</session.no>
    <period.no>0</period.no>
    <chamber>SENATE</chamber>
    <page.no>3295</page.no>
    <proof>0</proof>
  </session.header>
  <chamber.xscript>
    <para class="block">Senate. </para>
    <business.start>
      <day.start>1918-01-22</day.start>
      <para>The  President <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator the Hon.</inline> T.  Givens) took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers. </para>
    </business.start>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>3295</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>DEFENCE ACCOUNTS</title>
          <page.no>3295</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3295</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
              <electorate>WESTERN AUSTRALIA</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator NEEDHAM</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Has the Minister representing the Minister for Defence seen the statements in the report of the Auditor-General concerning the irregularities in the Defence Department&#39;s accounts? If <inline font-style="italic">so,</inline> can the honorable gentleman say what action, if any, is intended to be taken in the matter! </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3295</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role>Minister for Repatriation</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I have, of course, seen the report of the Auditor-General, but I am not in a position to answer the second question, which I shall bring under the notice of my colleague. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>3295</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>SHIPBUILDING IN TASMANIA</title>
          <page.no>3295</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3295</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRX</name.id>
              <electorate>TASMANIA</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LONG, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LONG</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- A few days ago I addressed to the Leader of the Government a question concerning the utilization for shipbuilding of the well-known resources of Tasmania, and asked if the programme of the Government extended to the construction of ships in some part of the  island. The Minister has kindly notified me that he has information on the subject, and I shall be glad, therefore, to hear his reply to the question. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3296</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I have been supplied, through the Prime Minister&#39;s Department,with the following memorandum: - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>With reference to your memorandum of the 12th instant, covering an extract fromHan- <inline font-style="italic">sard,</inline> on the subject of the Commonwealth shipbuilding proposal, I am directed to inform you that the Prime Minister has publicly announced that negotiations are now proceeding with the Tasmanian Government for building ships in that State. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Curchin,</inline> Chief Executive Officer of Commonwealth Ship Construction, will visit Tasmania at an early date. </para>
          </quote>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>3296</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>TELEPHONE TRUNK LINES</title>
          <page.no>3296</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3296</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K8L</name.id>
              <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">THOMAS, Josiah</name>
              <name role="display">Senator THOMAS</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Will the Minister  representing the Postmaster-General tell me, what was the revenue of the SydneyMelbourne trunk telephone line on Sundays for the three months previous to the imposition of double rates, and the revenue for the three months following their imposition? Will the honorable gentleman also let me know the number of telephonists employed in connexion with the work of the line during the same periods? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3296</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K3E</name.id>
              <electorate>VICTORIA</electorate>
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role>Honorary Minister</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">RUSSELL, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator RUSSELL</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The following communications supply the information for which the honorable senator asks, as well as information about the MelbourneAdelaide trunk line. The first memorandum is dated the 11th January, and was addressed to the Secretary, PostmasterGeneral&#39;s Department, by the Acting Secretary to the Representative of the Government in the Senate. It is as follows :  - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>I am directed by the Honorary Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Russell)</inline> to forward you the attached extract, from <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> of the 26th September last, and to request that the matter referred to by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Thomas</inline> may receive consideration. </para>
            <para>I may add that the Minister desires, in particular, information which will constitute a  reply to the following question: - &#34;What was the revenue received on Sunday telephones for three months prior to the double rates, and three months afterwards. Does this include O.S. payments?&#34; </para>
            <para>I should be glad. if the information in question could be furnished to me for the use of the Minister by the timethe Senate meets to-day, namely, 11 a.m. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">To that, this reply was received: - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>Replying to your communication of this date, I am directed to inform you that the remarks of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Thomas,</inline> as contained in Hansard of 26thSeptember last, did not include a request for the information now asked for. That information would be difficult and expensive to obtain, and in any case the retention or otherwise of the present practice is not dependent Upon the revenue question, so far as this particular class of the Department&#39;s work is concerned, but on the policy of the Department generally. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">Alater memorandum from the Secretary to the Postmaster-General, dated 22nd January, was as follows: - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>Replying to your communication of the 19 th inst., forwarding a letter addressed by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Josiah</inline> Thomas to <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Russell</inline> asking for the following information: - </para>
            <para>The revenue of the Sydney-Melbourne trunk line on Sundays for three months prior to the double rates coming in, and the revenue for three months on Sunday since the double rates came in, excluding all O.S. messages. </para>
            <para>The number of telephonists employed on the Sydney-Melbourne&#39; line on Sundays under the old rates&#39; and those under the new ones. </para>
            <para>I beg to give hereunder the information desired. I also give similar information regarding the Adelaide-Melbourne trunk line, which <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Thomas</inline> recently expressed a wish to have. In addition to the three months succeeding the introduction of the double Sunday rate, I have also given information for the three months of last year corresponding to the three months prior to the introduction of that rate: - </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">
            <graphic href="084332191801222_1_0.jpg" />
          </para>
          <para>The above revenue includes all paid business, whether &#34; O.S.&#34; or otherwise. </para>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="2.">
              <para>With regard to the telephonists employed, I am advised that in neither Sydney, Melbourne, nor Adelaide has the work, either before or since the introduction of the double rates, required the full . time of one telephonist. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
          <para>Justinian Oxenham. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>3297</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>SALE OF SHIPS TO FOREIGNERS</title>
          <page.no>3297</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3297</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Has the Minister representing the Prime Ministerseen the report in the press that at least two Australian ships have recently been sold to foreigners? Is it the intention of the Government to take steps to prevent further sales of Australian shipping to foreigners ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3297</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I have no information on the subject, but I shall bring the question under the notice of the Prime Minister. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>PAPEES</title>
        <page.no>3297</page.no>
        <type>miscellaneous</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para class="block">The following papers were presented :  - </para>
      <quote>
        <para>Arbitration (Public Service) Act 1911 - Orders (dated 18th October, 1917) of Commonwealth Conciliation and Arbitration Court, and other documents, in connexion with variation or further variation of Awards of the Court on plaints submitted by the following: - </para>
      </quote>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Commonwealth Public Service Clerical Association</title>
          <page.no>3297</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
      </subdebate.1>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Commonwealth Postmasters&#39; Association</title>
          <page.no>3297</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>Australian Commonwealth Post and Telegraph Officers&#39; Association (three cases ) . </para>
      </subdebate.1>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Postal Sorters&#39; Union of Australia</title>
          <page.no>3297</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
      </subdebate.1>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Letter Carriers&#39; Association</title>
          <page.no>3297</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>Federated Public Service Assistants&#39; As  sociation (two cases). </para>
        <para>Australian Soldiers&#39; Repatriation Fund Act 1910. - Report by Auditor-General on the Accounts of the Australian Soldiers&#39; Repatriation Fund and of the various State War Councils. </para>
        <para>Commonwealth Railways Act 1917. - By-law No. 1. </para>
        <para>Finance: Treasurer&#39;s Statement of Receipts . and Expenditure during the year ended &#39; 30th June, 1917, accompanied by the Report of the Auditor-General. </para>
        <para>Lands Acquisition Act 190G. - Land acquired at South Head, Sydney - For Defence purposes. </para>
      </subdebate.1>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Public Service Act 1902-1916: - Promotions, Postmaster-General&#39;s Department -</title>
          <page.no>3297</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <list type="upperalpha-dotted">
          <item label="J.">
            <para>E. Fidler. </para>
          </item>
          <item label="G.">
            <para>A. Gunning. </para>
          </item>
          <item label="J.">
            <para>James. </para>
          </item>
        </list>
      </subdebate.1>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Prime Minister&#39;s Department -</title>
          <page.no>3297</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <list type="upperalpha-dotted">
          <item label="C.">
            <para>H. Conn. </para>
          </item>
          <item label="J.">
            <para>A. Cronin.. </para>
          </item>
        </list>
        <para>War Precautions Act 1914-1910. - Regulations amended. - Statutory Rules 1917, Nos. 289, 317, 325. </para>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>3297</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>ONION CROP</title>
          <page.no>3297</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3297</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KTD</name.id>
              <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MCDOUGALL, Allan</name>
              <name role="display">Senator McDOUGALL</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- On the 16th </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>January, 1917, I informed <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Bussell</inline> of the manipulation of the onion crop by a combine. No notice having been, taken of my letter, I ask whether the same thing is not being repeated this year? </para>
          <para>SenatorRussell. - Will the honorable member give notice of the question? </para>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>3297</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KTD</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">MCDOUGALL, Allan</name>
                <name role="display">Senator McDOUGALL</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- No. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>3297</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>WAR PRECAUTIONS ACT</title>
          <page.no>3297</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>Prosecutions under Regulations. </para>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3297</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KTD</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MCDOUGALL, Allan</name>
              <name role="display">Senator McDOUGALL</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Attorney-General, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>What was the cost to the Government of the recent Court proceedings taken against public men, the press, and others, under the War Precautions Regulations during the recent referendum campaign, showing - </para>
            <list type="decimal">
              <item label="(1)">
                <para>Professional costs, and to whom paid? </para>
              </item>
              <item label="(2)">
                <para>Witnesses&#39; costs, and to whom paid? </para>
              </item>
            </list>
          </quote>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3297</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- It is necessary to obtain this information from other States. This is being done. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3297</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Prime Minister, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>How many newspapers published in the Commonwealth have been proceeded against under the provisions of the War Precautions Act or regulations thereunder for the publication of articles or advertisements since 1st November till 31st December, 1917? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>What arc the names of such newspapers? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="3.">
              <para>What is the total amount of fines imposed, and to what extent have they been paid? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="4.">
              <para>How many actions are pending? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="5.">
              <para>How many editors or managers of newspapers have been proceeded against for similar reasons? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="6.">
              <para>How many have been fined? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="7.">
              <para>What was the name of each person fined? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="8.">
              <para>What is the amount of each fine? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="9.">
              <para>What is the total amount of such fines? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="10.">
              <para>How many actions are still pending? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="11.">
              <para>What are the names of the members of - </para>
              <list type="loweralpha">
                <item label="(a)">
                  <para>the Senate; </para>
                </item>
                <item label="(b)">
                  <para>the House of Representatives; </para>
                </item>
                <item label="(c)">
                  <para>the Legislative Assemblies; </para>
                </item>
                <item label="(d)">
                  <para>the Legislative Councils; </para>
                </item>
                <item label="(e)">
                  <para>and of private citizens (excluding editors and managers of newspapers) who, since the passing of the War Precautions Act and regulations thereunder have been proceeded against for making statements contrary to the provisions of the said Act and regulations. </para>
                </item>
              </list>
            </item>
          </list>
          <para>The name of each person fined, and the amount in each case. </para>
          <para>The total amount of such fines? </para>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="12.">
              <para>How many persons are now in gaol for offences under the War Precautions Act and regulations thereunder ? </para>
            </item>
          </list>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>3298</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KUL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
                <name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I suggest that the honorable senator move for this information in the form of a return. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>3298</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KMP</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Grant</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I shall do so. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>3298</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>NATIONAL SEEVICE BUREAUX</title>
          <page.no>3298</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3298</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K1I</name.id>
              <electorate>VICTORIA</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">BARKER, Stephen</name>
              <name role="display">Senator BARKER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Prime Minister, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>What was the cost of establishing the late National Service Bureaux? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>What was the number of persons offered employment, engaged, and employed in the several States? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="3.">
              <para>What was the cost, and did the Federal Government pay same? </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3298</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The answers to the honorable senator&#39;s questions are - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>The Commonwealth Government has paid &#163;1,035 10s. Cd. up to the present. Further claims in connexion with the bureau in Melbourne have been received, and are at present the subject of correspondence between the Commonwealth Government and the State Government as to the allocation. I am not aware of the cost to the several State Governments concerned. 2 and 3. Bureaux were established in New South Wales, Victoria, and Western Australia. In New South Wales and Western Australia, they were controlled solely by the State Governments, who bore the whole of the expenses. No particulars are in the possession of the Commonwealth Government. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>3298</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>KALGOORLIE TO PORT AUGUSTA RAILWAY</title>
          <page.no>3298</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>Issue of Free Passes</para>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3298</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JU7</name.id>
              <electorate>WESTERN AUSTRALIA</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">DE LARGIE, Hugh</name>
              <name role="display">Senator DE LARGIE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Minister for Works and Railways, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>Have any free passes been granted on the transcontinental railway since the opening? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>If the answer is in the affirmative, what is the number of free passes issued? </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3298</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K3E</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">RUSSELL, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator RUSSELL</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The answer to the honorable senator&#39;s question is as follows : - 1 and 2. The Commonwealth Railway&#39;s Commissioner states that no free passes have been issued. Only the usual official passes to officers who are required to travel on duty, and the customary privilege passes to three or four railway employees travelling on leave of absence, have been granted. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>3298</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>COMMONWEALTH SHIPBUILDING SCHEME</title>
          <page.no>3298</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3298</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Prime Minister, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>What is the present position with regard to what is known as the Commonwealth shipbuilding scheme? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>Have any contracts been let, and if so, to&#62; whom, and at what cost? </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3298</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The answers are - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>It is proposed to lay down two vessels at Williamstown, and two at Walsh Island, and others at sites to be decided upon. The preliminary arrangements are well advanced, &#39;and the actual work of construction will shortly be commenced. </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>The following contracts have been let for material for six ships, which is at present unprocurable in Australia, viz.: - </para>
            </item>
          </list>
          <para>In Great Britain - </para>
          <para>Cable chains - 2 sets with Dudley Round Oak Works; 2 sets with Samuel Taylor; 2 sets with Brown Renox. </para>
          <para class="block">Wire ropes. - With Hood, Haggle. </para>
          <para class="block">Boiler parts. - With Babcock and Wilcox. </para>
          <para>In the United States of America - </para>
          <para class="block">Steel plates. - With the Steel Corporation (6,000 tons). </para>
          <para class="block">Contracts for sectional steel and steel plates procurable in Australia are now the subject of negotiation. Inquiries have been issued for prices for steel castings and forgings. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>3298</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>REPATRIATION DEPARTMENT</title>
          <page.no>3298</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3298</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator NEEDHAM</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister for Repatriation, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>What is , thc number of the staff in the Minister&#39;s Department? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>The names of the officers, their salaries, and their duties? </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3298</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The answers are - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>Repatriation Department, nineteen officers, including four officers on loan; Repatriation Board of Trustees, eight officers. </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>I will lay a list containing those particulars on the table of the Senate. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
          <para>The Staff at Head-Quarters of the Repatriation Department includes a number of officers who are engaged in work- controlled by present Repatriation Board of Trustees. The work of the two sections are interrelated, but they are shown in separate columns. In addition to those mentioned, at the desire of the Government, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. N.</inline> C. Lockyer, Inter-State Commissioner, has temporarily takencharge as Comptroller until the preliminary work of organization is completed. The services of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. L.</inline> F. East, Chief  Clerk,  Customs Department; and <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. R.</inline> Ovington, of Prime Minister&#39;s Department, have also been secured temporarily to assist in connexion with the more important requirements. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. C.</inline> W. Peterson, and Railways, is acting as Private Secretary who is an officer of the Department of Works to the Minister. </para>
          <para class="block">
            <graphic href="084332191801222_4_0.jpg" />
          </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>3299</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>RETURNED SOLDIERS</title>
          <page.no>3299</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>Pensions for Wives</para>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3299</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K2L</name.id>
              <electorate>for Senator Poll</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator REID</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Treasurer, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>Is it a fact that at the present time a returned soldier who marries after his return to Australia, and applies for a pension for his wife, is only granted same from date of application, and not from date of marriage? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>Is he aware whether many soldiers who have been away from Australia for some considerable time, are not cognisant of the regulations; and, if so, will the Minister give instructions that in future these pensions are to be paid from date of marriage, on production of marriage certificate. </para>
            </item>
            <item label="3.">
              <para>Failing this, will he issue instructions that when a soldier is granted a pension, he be informed of the regulations, so that, in the event of his marrying whilst still on pension, he may apply in time for a pension to be granted his wife from date of marriage? </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3299</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The answersare - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>No. Such pensions are granted from date of marriage, if applied for within a reasonable time. 2 and 3. Every publicity has been given to the fact that pensions are granted to the wives of incapacitated soldiers who marry after their discharge, and the Department &#39;assists the soldiers in these matters as far as possible. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>3299</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>BALSILLIE RAIN EXPERIMENTS</title>
          <page.no>3299</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3299</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRX</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LONG, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LONG</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister for Repatriation, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>What is the total expenditure of the Federal Government in connexion with the Balsillie rain experiments? </para>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3299</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The information will be obtained and laid upon the table of the Senate. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>3299</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>PURCHASE OF RABBITS AND RABBIT SKINS</title>
          <page.no>3299</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3299</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K1L</name.id>
              <electorate>VICTORIA</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">BARNES, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator BARNES</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Honorary Minister, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>What profit have the Government made outof the purchase of rabbit and rabbit skins? </para>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3299</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K3E</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">RUSSELL, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator RUSSELL</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The answer is - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>The Commonwealth Government purchased the 1917 rabbit pack on behalf of the British Government, and has made no profit for itself. </para>
          <para>From April, 1917, to the end of the year, the net profit to the Commonwealth Government in connexion with the purchase and sale of rabbit skins was, approximately, &#163;230,000. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>3299</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>ESTIMATED WAR EXPENDITURE</title>
          <page.no>3299</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3299</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRX</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LONG, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LONG</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister for Repatriation, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>What is the actual and estimated war expenditure of the Commonwealth Government up to 30th June, 1918? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>The annual interest thereon? </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3300</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The answers are- </para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>?214,880,673, of which ?2o,S34,916 was paid out of revenue, and ?189,045,757 paid out of loans. </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>?8,747,214. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>3300</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>RETURNED SOLDIERS AND CONSCRIPTION</title>
          <page.no>3300</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3300</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K1L</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">BARNES, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator BARNES</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Prime Minister, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>Are returned soldiers being dismissed from employment because they have worked against conscription ? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>If so, are the Government doing anything to protect them from such treatment? </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3300</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Not so far as I am aware. If particulars are furnished in respect of any such case inquiries will be at once instituted to ascertain the facts, and any&#39; requisite action will be taken </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>3300</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>WIRELESS MESSAGES</title>
          <page.no>3300</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3300</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JZ9</name.id>
              <electorate>TASMANIA</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">O&#39;KEEFE, David</name>
              <name role="display">Senator O&#39;KEEFE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister for Defence, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>Are long-distance wireless messages which contain important information relating to the war received at stations in Australia? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>If so, are any such messages or parts of them censored? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="3.">
              <para>If they are censored for reasons of safety, would it not be possible that members should have confidential access to such censored parts, so that they would bo armed with valuable knowledge in considering questions relating to the war? </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3300</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The answers are - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>Long distance wireless messages are received. The information is relatively unimportant. </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>Yes. They are received in England also; are censored there, and released for publication. </para>
            </item>
            <item label="3.">
              <para>The censored parts cannot, in the public interest, be disclosed. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>SALE OF INTOXICANTS IN WAR TIME</title>
        <page.no>3300</page.no>
        <type>miscellaneous</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Motions (by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Thomas)</inline> agreed to - </para>
      <quote>
        <para>That the Select Committee appointed to inquire into the effects of intoxicating liquor onoutgoing and returning soldiers, have leave to report its minutes of evidence from time to time. </para>
        <para>That the Select Committee appointed to inquire into the effect of the sale of intoxicating liquor to outgoing and returning soldiers, have leave to adjourn from place to place. </para>
      </quote>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>SUPPLY BILL (No. 5) 1917-18</title>
        <page.no>3300</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Reinforcements Referendum - Ministers&#39; &#34; Pledges &#34; - Resignation and Re-acceptance of Office by the Ministry - War Precautions Regulations - Disfranchisement of Australianborn Electors : Prosecutions under War Precautions Act - Marshall Islands - National GovernmentThe National Party and the New South Wales Railway Strike - <inline font-weight="bold">Sir William</inline> Irvine - Charges by ex-Senator Watson - Number of Men in Australia Eligible for War Service - Voluntarism and Conscription - Dominions&#39; Share in the War - Labour Party and Labour Movement: Outside Control - Soldiers and Dependants&#39; Pay and Pensions - Conduct of War: British Labour Views - Work of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes:</inline> Organization of Primary Industries and Disposal of Products : Purchase of Ships, and Shipbuilding - Construction of Cruiser &#34; Adelaide &#34; - Revenue for  War Purposes: Land Values Taxation. </para>
      <para>Bill received from the House of Representatives. </para>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>3300</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>KUL</name.id>
            <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
            <party>NAT</party>
            <role>Minister for Repatriation</role>
            <in.gov>1</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
            <name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
          </talker>
          <para>. - I move - </para>
        </talk.start>
        <quote>
          <para>That so much of the Standing and Sessional Orders be suspended as would prevent the Bill being passed through all its stages without delay. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">I have no intention to ask the House to put this Bill through with any undue haste; but it is possible that, at a later stage, after the House has exhausted the discussion, it may be desirable to proceed immediately from one stage to another. </para>
        <para>Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
        <para>Motion (by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Millen)</inline> proposed - </para>
        <quote>
          <para>That this Bill be now read a first time. </para>
        </quote>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>3300</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
            <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
            <party />
            <role />
            <in.gov>0</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
            <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
          </talker>
          <para>- &#91;3.25&#93;. - I am surprised that the Minister in charge of the business should move the first reading of a Bill of this importance without one word of explanation of what the Government have done during the very long period since we had an, opportunity to discuss public business. It would not have been out of place if the Government&#39;s representative here had told the Senate and the country what the Government have been doing to carry out their pledge to win the war; for that pledge is the only reason why the present Government find themselves in office. The Minister, I think, might well have put before the members of the Senate some reasons why the Government, of its own volition, without calling Parliament together, and without discussing the matter at all, subjected the people of the country to turmoil such as we have gone through in the recent referendum campaign. However, it is quite in keeping with the whole conduct of the Government that the Leader of the House, in introducing this Supply Bill, should merely move that it be read a first time, and say no more about it - it is quite in keeping with the evident determination of the Government to dispense with parliamentary services altogether. If the country will submit to the Government taking out of the hands of Parliament such an important matter as a referendum, and if the Government will violate a pledge made, not on one platform, but on a hundred, and reported not in one newspaper, but in every newspaper in the Commonwealth, that if they were not given the powers sought, they would cease to govern the country, we may expect such treatment as we are now receiving. I cannot help expressing my surprise, however, that the Minister should throw this measure before us without a word of explanation, or without a word to condone the conduct of the Government; though, perhaps, as he is a member of such a new Government he thinks that he and his colleagues have nothing to answer for. I have one or two things to say &#39;to the Government, because, despite all their lightning changes - despite the fact that they have degraded the Ministerial office in Australia to a level never before reached - and that into this degradation they have drawn, not only themselves, but the representative of  His  Majesty, the Governor-General, I can quite understand that, when the subject has been dealt with at length, honorable senators now behind the Government will remain there as complacently as they have since they were elected to the Parliament. There is only one course to which honour points. No matter what a man&#39;s views may be, or what his pledges to his party may be, no one sitting in this Parliament can put hia loyalty to party in place of his personal honour. The personal honour and repu tation of all members of the party opposite who did not disclaim the Ministerial pledge to resign demand that they should vote the Government! out of office. </para>
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            <para>- We know how to take care of our own honour. </para>
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            <para>- There are no half measures; and if honorable senators opposite sneer, it is only what one might expect. I should like to commence my remarks by placing on record that excellent epigrammatic description of the leadership of the present Prime Minister, by our old friend, ex-Senator Rae, who said, &#34; In twelve months he <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Hughes)</inline> forced the Labour party to surrender its power to retain its honour, and in less than twelve months he has forced the. National party to surrender its honour to retain its power.&#34; That, I think, deserves a place in the pages of <inline font-style="italic">Hansard;</inline> and if I said no more the Government would be well dealt with. They are welcome to that power. I intend to read to the Senate the pledges given by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Millen</inline> and the Minister for Defence as to what would follow if certain things happened. While this war lasts the most important member of this Parliament is the Minister for Defence, and I think we are at least entitled to know why his position is vacant to-day. </para>
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              <page.no>3301</page.no>
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            <para>- Perhaps his absence is the forerunner of his exit from the Defence Department. </para>
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            <para>- It may be that he is on <inline font-style="italic">his</inline> way to another country. It may be that, with the secrecy with which public business is dealt with, and of which honorable senators seem to approve, the Minister for Defence has received another appointment. </para>
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              <page.no>3301</page.no>
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            <para>- The honorable senator approved of some of his party leaving the country. </para>
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              <page.no>3301</page.no>
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            <para>- If the measure I apply to others were applied to me it is quite possible that faults in my conduct could be found, but ever since I have been a member of Parliament I have tried to adhere to what is right and proper, and have endeavoured to induce Parliament to insist upon that straight course of conduct which Parliament has a right to expect from the Government, who are a committee managing its affairs for the time being. </para>
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        <para>There is so much to be said at the present time that one is at a loss to know where to commence. Shall I begin by turning back some distance in our political history, dealing with matters which happened some time ago, or -shall I commence nearer to to-da-y, and deal with the present leader, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes?</inline> In view of what has appeared in the public press during the past few weeks, would lt have been out of place for the Leader of the Senate to make a statement this afternoon as to whether it is the intention or wish of the party with- which he is associated to strengthen the Government, by an alliance with other parties ? </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3302</page.no>
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            <para>- Does the honorable senator believe that there are great undiscovered sources1 of strength available? </para>
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              <page.no>3302</page.no>
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            <para>- There are a good number of people in this country who believe that in the grave emergency through which we are passing it might be a source of strength to the country if party bitterness, party bickering, and, worse than that, the Government&#39;s attacks upon the unions, could he discontinued. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3302</page.no>
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            <para>- A course is open to the honorable senator. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3302</page.no>
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            <para>- It is open to the Government to make a statement which would lead to a betterment of the existing condition of things. I see one course open to me, and I shall take full advantage of it. The Government have led, and are leading, the country in such a way that I fear the results, if they do not change their course of conduct. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3302</page.no>
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            <para>- I fear the lack of  results if  the Opposition do not change their conduct. </para>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3302</page.no>
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            <para>- I can quite understand that the honorable senator is in dread of what the Opposition may do. The fact that they are the Opposition is sufficient to make him find fault with their conduct; but if he were a representative of New South  Wales,  as I am, he would know that the recent referendum was an outrage on public feeling in that State. , </para>
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        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3302</page.no>
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            <para>- Does the honorable senator not believe in the principle of the referendum ? </para>
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              <page.no>3302</page.no>
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            <para>- I cannot come down to the idiocy of such a question as that. It is an indication of the frame of mind of the senators- who sit opposite. I am not, and never was, much of a believer in the referendum, but when a referendum has been held, and by an overwhelming majority of the people the question has been decided, it is not right for the Government then, of their own volition, without consulting Parliament, and without giving fresh reasons to the people, through Parliament, why the issue should be re-submitted, to throw such a bone of contention between the people at a time when wise statesmanship would have aimed, not at spreading, dissension, distrust, and ill-feeling, but . at ending strife by bringing peace, and compelling ill-will to cease by causing good-will. </para>
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        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3302</page.no>
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            <para>- Does the honorable senator contend that a referendum must excite ill-will? </para>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3302</page.no>
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            <para>- I am referring to the referendum which has been held ; and the only thing that reconciles me to a belief that Australians will put up with a great deal is the fact that <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Bakhap</inline> can be found as an apologist for a referendum campaign conducted as his leader conducted the last one. </para>
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        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3302</page.no>
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            <para>- I am not apologizing for anything at the present time. </para>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3302</page.no>
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            <para>- If the honorable senator is not apologizing, he is excusing. During the last referendum campaign, public men were degraded in a manner in which public men in&#39; Great Britain have not been degraded for centuries; they were dragged before magistrates because they dared to speak thetruth on the platform; and the Prime Minister held up to ridicule and contempt the head of a great religious denomination and tried to win his election thereby. If actions like, those are notcalculated to bring  strife  amongst us, I should like to know what would. </para>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3302</page.no>
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            <para>- The honorable senator is speaking with his tongue in his cheek. There is no love lost between him and the leader of that denomination. </para>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3302</page.no>
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            <para>- I never said there was, but more than love the leader of that denomination prefers justice and fair play, and never from me did he get anything else. What are we to think of a man who is a member of the denomination, and condones not only public utterances that held up to ridicule and contempt the head of the Church in Victoria, but also the effort to win the fight by the introduction of a mean and dirty sectarian element. The honorable senator is still excusing that conduct, and will continue excusing it so long as he holds his seat. </para>
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        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3303</page.no>
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            <para>-  The honorable senator requires no apologist for his utterances. </para>
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              <page.no>3303</page.no>
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            <para>- If a referendum were conducted decently, it should not cause strife; but, conducted as it was by the Prime Minister, supported, as he knew he would be by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Bakhap,</inline> because that honorable gentleman had not the courage to repudiate his leader&#39;s conduct while the campaign was in progress </para>
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        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3303</page.no>
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            <para>-  My courage requires no apologist, either. </para>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3303</page.no>
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            <para>- The honorable senator simply accepted all that the Prime Minister said and did, in the hope that he would gain a mean party advantage, regardless of whether it stirred up strife and bitterness. I should like to warn the people of this country. If I interpret the feelings of the free men in New South Wales properly, the Government had better go very little further in the direction they are following. </para>
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        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3303</page.no>
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            <para>-  Is the honorable senator&#39;s remark to be understood as a threat? </para>
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              <page.no>3303</page.no>
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            <para>- Yes. Imean it as a threat. I warn the Government that if they persist in their mad efforts to conscript free Australians they will fail; because free Australians will not be conscripted even by the servile majority that stands behind the Government at the present time. </para>
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        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3303</page.no>
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            <para>-  Do not worry. They will never attempt&#39; it again. </para>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3303</page.no>
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            <para>- I am inclined to be cautious. If the conscription issue is dead, it is the duty of the Leader of the Senate to make a public announcement here that the Government will not during the life of this Parliament, either by means of regulations under the War Precautions Act or : by direct legislation, attempt to further interfere with the liberties of the people by conscripting them. There are thousands of people in the State of New South Wales who would resent it, and, if they are defrauded of their liberty by the fraudulent actions of Ministers there will be only one recourse left to them, and that is force. In times such as these no one can regard force as a reasonable method of resisting the wrongful actions of a Government, but it is just as well to say here that Ministers cannot conscript free Australians, and if they attempt to do so, it is as well that </para>
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        <para class="block">Government supporters who show any element of independence should tell their Leader that he cannot go too far. We know the Leader of their party ; we know that he forced this matter on the country on his own volition. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3303</page.no>
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            <para>-  The Imperial Government did not want it. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3303</page.no>
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            <para>- No one wanted it. </para>
          </talk.start>
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        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3303</page.no>
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            <para>-  There were a million people in this country who wanted it. </para>
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        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3303</page.no>
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            <para>- A million people voted for the Government which introduced it, but the most thoughtful of them regretted that the question had been introduced. That is the danger we have to fear from this Government. Ministers looked at that million votes, and claiming that  another  referendum on conscription  was  sought for, they took one. As <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Millen</inline> says, a million people have voted for conscription. But how was the vote obtained ? By a series of regulations the Government introduced a reign of terror among public speakers who were on the &#34;No &#34; side. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McDougall,</inline> for an utterance made at Albury, one that any honorable senator would have made, and should have made, was dragged before a magistrate in Sydney. Of course, the magistrate had too much common sense to record a conviction. There was no offence deserving of a penalty. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3303</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">MCDOUGALL, Allan</name>
              <name role="display">Senator McDougall</name>
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            <para>-  Only a fool would have laid the charge. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3303</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- I will not use the term &#34; fool,&#34; but I will say that only a lunatic would have framed such a regulation as would drag men before magistrates on the charges on which they were proceeded against. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McDougall</inline> merely advised the electors to maks sure that they were on the roll by going up to vote and demanding their votes. Of course, the case was dismissed, and costs to the amount of &#163;5 were given against the Commonwealth. A charge was laid against the Premier of Queensland. Surely <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Ryan&#39;s</inline> position should have saved him from the mean methods pursued by the Commonwealth AttorneyGeneral, who was in control of the administration of the War Precautions Act, under which regulations were gazetted for one purpose only, namely, in order to harass and annoy speakers on the &#34; No &#34; side. The most glaring false-  hoods were allowed to go unchallenged if they were uttered by men on the &#34; Yes &#34; side, and appeals to the Commonwealth Attorney-General or to the Commonwealth law officers to institute prosecutions fell on deaf ears. No action would be taken if the person making the statement belonged to the &#34; Yes &#34; side. On the other hand, detectives were sent out to listen to speakers on the &#34;No&#34; side, and shorthand writers were sent out to take notes of their utterances. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Barnes</inline> was dragged before a magistrate. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3304</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K1L</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">BARNES, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Barnes</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Those proceedings cost the Commonwealth a few pounds. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3304</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- I suppose they were in the wrong again. Ex-Senator Rae was charged with having made the statement that there were not 60,000 fit single men left in Australia, though it was based on good figures and sound reasoning. The magistrate decided that he had good grounds for making the statement, though his facts were wrong, as there were 60,000 fit single men in Australia, but I am prepared to say now, as I did during the campaign, that, if the figures of the Statistician can be taken as any guide, there are not 60,000 fit single men in Australia at the present time. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3304</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K1J</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">PRATTEN, Herbert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Pratten</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Can you give us the figures? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3304</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- Before I am finished, I will give you some figures, but first let me show how this thing worked out when the &#39; &#39; No &#39; &#39; side were using figures. When <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Rae,</inline> on figures issued by the Statistician, said that there were not 60,000 fit single men in Australia, he was dragged before a magistrate; but two gentlemen, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Percy</inline> Hunter and <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Archdale</inline> Parkhill, members of the National party, were allowed to issue a document headed &#34;Think!&#34; and state that there were - </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <quote>
          <para>Nearly a million men of military age left in Australia. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">Why were they not brought before a magistrate ? Will any one say that their statement was not a great deal wider of the mark than <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Rae&#39;s?</inline></para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3304</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- What does the honorable senator say as to the number of men of military age in the Commonwealth ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3304</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Married and single ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3304</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Yes. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3304</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The number might approach 300,000. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3304</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K18</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">BAKHAP, Thomas</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Bakhap</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The Statistician said that there were over 1,000,000 men available, according to the classifications of the Defence Act. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3304</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
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            <para>- I challenge the honorable senator to produce his authority upon the floor of the Senate. For the moment, I am merely pointing out the different treatment meted out to the two parties. Though <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Rae</inline> was brought before a magistrate for having said that there were not 60,000 fit single men in Australia, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Percy</inline> Hunter and <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Archdale</inline> Parkhill were allowed to issue a statement that there were nearly 1,000,000 men of military age in . Australia. It was not that the Government did not prosecute them because thev had not heard of the matter. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para>When they made this statement, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. John</inline> Bailey, of the Australian Workers Union, instructed his solicitor to send this letter, dated 10th December, 1917 - </para>
        <list type="upperalpha-dotted">
          <item label="S.">
            <para>McHutchison, Esq., </para>
          </item>
        </list>
        <para>Commonwealth Crown Solicitor&#39;s Office, Sydney. </para>
        <para>
          <inline font-weight="bold">Sir,</inline>
        </para>
        <para>I have been instructed by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. John</inline> Bailey, of 321 Pitt-street, Sydney, the vice-president of the Australian Workers Union, to apply to you for your consent to the prosecution of Percy Hunter and Archdale Parkhill, both of Sydney, under the provisions of the War Precautions Regulations (Military Service Referendum) for publishing a handbill entitled &#34; Think,&#34; containing a false statement of fact of a kind likely to affect the judgment of electors in relation to their votes. I enclose a copy of the pamphlet. </para>
        <para>If you will advise me at your earliest convenience, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Bailey</inline> will at once attend at your office, or before a magistrate, to lay the information. </para>
        <list type="upperalpha-dotted">
          <item label="A.">
            <para>C. Roberts. </para>
          </item>
        </list>
        <para>Another letter was sent to thesame address next day in these terms - </para>
        <para>
          <inline font-weight="bold">Sir,</inline>
        </para>
        <para>In my letter of yesterday&#39;s date <inline font-style="italic">re</inline> Percy Hunter and Archdale Parkhill, I omitted to refer you to the particular false statement, viz., &#34; There are nearly 1,000,000 men of military age in Australia.&#34; </para>
        <para>You will notice I underlined the words in the handbill. </para>
        <list type="upperalpha-dotted">
          <item label="A.">
            <para>C. Roberts. </para>
          </item>
        </list>
        <para>
          <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Bailey&#39;s</inline>solicitor, in reply to this cor respondence, received the following letter, dated Sydney, 11th December, 1917 - </para>
        <para>Albert C. Roberts, </para>
        <para>Eastwood Chambers, 19a Elizabeth-street, Sydney. </para>
        <para class="block">Dear <inline font-weight="bold">Sir,</inline></para>
        <para>I am in receipt of your letter dated 10th inst., also your letter of even date euclosing handbill entitled &#34; Think,&#34; and asking that I should consent to a proposed prosecution under the provisions of the War Precautions (Military Service Referendum) Regulations. </para>
        <para>The application is addressed to me in my official capacity. </para>
        <para>I do not consider my authority extends so as to entitle me to consent to the prosecution proposed without first referring the matter to the Department. </para>
        <para>I am accordingly taking that course, and will advise you further so soon as instructions are received. </para>
        <list type="upperalpha-dotted">
          <item label="S.">
            <para>McHutchison </para>
          </item>
        </list>
        <para class="block">This is another letter received by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Roberts</inline> from <inline font-weight="bold">Mr.</inline> McHutchison,  dated 14th December - </para>
        <quote>
          <para class="block">Dear <inline font-weight="bold">Sir,</inline></para>
          <para>
            <inline font-style="italic">He</inline>Hunter and Parkhill. </para>
          <para>I am in receipt of your letter headed as above, dated to-day. As soon as I get the instructions of the Department I will advise you. </para>
          <list type="upperalpha-dotted">
            <item label="S.">
              <para>McHutchison. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">Later still, this letter, dated 17th December, was received by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Roberts</inline> - </para>
        <quote>
          <para class="block">Dear <inline font-weight="bold">Sir,</inline></para>
          <para>
            <inline font-style="italic">He</inline>Hunter and Parkhill. </para>
          <para>I refer you to our previous correspondence in connexion with this matter touching the request that I should consent to a prosecution. </para>
          <para>My, instructions are that where private persons desire to take proceedings under the War Precautions Act, application should be made in writing to the  Hon.  the Attorney-General direct in the usual way. </para>
          <para>My discretion does not extend to cases of the character mentioned by you. </para>
          <list type="upperalpha-dotted">
            <item label="S.">
              <para>McHutchison. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">Here is another letter dealing with this matter, dated from Eastwood Chambers, 18th December, 1917- </para>
        <quote>
          <para class="block">The  Hon.  the Attorney-General, </para>
          <para>Commonwealth Buildings, Moore-street, Sydney. </para>
          <para class="block">
            <inline font-weight="bold">Sir,</inline>
          </para>
          <para>
            <inline font-style="italic">He</inline>Hunter and Parkhill. </para>
          <para>On the 10th inst. I applied to <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. S.</inline> McHutchison,  of Commonwealth Solicitor&#39;s Office, on behalf of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. John</inline> Bailey, of 321 Pitt-street, Sydney, the vice-president of the Australian Workers Union, for his consent to the prosecution of Percy Hunter and Archdale Parkhill, both oE Sydney, under the provisions of the War Precautions Regulations (Military Service Referendum) for publishing a handbill entitled &#34; Think,&#34; containing a false statement of fact of a kind likely to affect the judgment of electors in relation to their votes. I enclosed with this letter a copy of the handbill, in which I underlined the words constituting the false statement, viz., &#34; Nearly 1,000,000 men of military age left in Australia.&#34; </para>
          <para>
            <inline font-weight="bold">Mr.</inline>McHutchison  at first expressed doubt as to whether his authority was sufficient, and stated he had referred the matter to the Department, and in a letter of yesterday&#39;s date he states, &#34; My instructions are that where private persons desire to take proceedings under the War Precautions Act, application should be made in writing to the  Hon.  the Attorney- </para>
          <para class="block">General. My discretion does not extend to cases of the character mentioned by you.&#34; </para>
          <para>I refer you to the correspondence and handbill forwarded <inline font-weight="bold">Mr.</inline> McHutchison,  as I have not another copy of the handbill. </para>
          <para>I am instructed to ask that you give your consent to the prosecution of the above-named persons for the offence above alleged. </para>
          <para>If you see fit to give this consent, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Bailey</inline> will attend at the Commonwealth Crown Solicitor &#39;s office, or before a magistrate, to lay the information as may be required. </para>
          <list type="upperalpha-dotted">
            <item label="A.">
              <para>C. Roberts. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">There is the correspondence iri the case, but the two gentlemen referred to were not prosecuted. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3305</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K1J</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">PRATTEN, Herbert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Pratten</name>
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            <para>- What was objected to in their statement? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>3305</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
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            <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
            <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
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          <para>- It was objected that it was false and misleading and . calculated to mislead the electors. If ex-Senator Rae&#39;s statement, that there were not 60,000 fit single men left in Australia, based, as the magistrate admitted, on good grounds, was sufficient to justify him being taken before a magistrate, unless it was the deliberate intention that this ill-conceived law should be wickedly administered, Messrs. Percy Hunter and Archdale Parkhill should also have been prosecuted. There should have been an even deal to both sides. </para>
        </talk.start>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3305</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JYF</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <role />
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Earle</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Will the honorable senator not give us the AttorneyGeneral&#39;s reply to the last letter he quoted? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3305</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
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            <para>- No, because it has not yet come to hand.- If it had I would have given it. This goes to the root of the matter. My honorable colleague, <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McDougall,</inline> spoke at Albury, and his tour of the constituency was interrupted by proceedings! taken against him on a summons issued in Sydney. He was called upon to appear before a magistrate there, and witnesses had to be brought from Albury. On the other hand, other men make a statement which, on the face of it, was far more wide of the truth, and no prosecution is instituted. If it was right that ex-Senator Rae, Senators McDougall and Barnes, and other members of the Official Labour party should be brought before magistrates for alleged false statements made by them, why were not the other men I have referred to similarly treated ? J Justice  in this matter was not only blind, but in the case of persons advocating the &#34; Yes &#34; side in the campaign the law itself was dead. These are the things we complain of. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3306</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K5R</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <role />
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              <name role="metadata">SENIOR, William</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Senior</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The honorable senator has made statements, but he has produced no evidence. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3306</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- What evidence does the honorable senator require? If the letters which&#39; I have read are not evidence in the opinion of <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Senior,</inline> then I can produce no evidence which he would appreciate or understand, and I shall not attempt the impossible. I say that the regulation against which I protest takes from Britishers the liberty which is rightly theirs. One has to go back to the time of the Star Chamber to look for its equal. Under this regulation any man, public or private, could be brought before a magistrate, not in order to establish his guilt, but that he might be called upon  to prove his innocence. We ordinarily give a man charged with the worst of crimes the benefit of the doubt until his guilt is proved. Under this regulation a public speaker makes a statement which  some  of his most malicious opponents say is wrong, and he is then taken before a magistrate and compelled to prove that the statement he made was correct. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Senior</inline> may say that I have no proof to justify that statement, but the proof is in the wording of the regulation itself. Have we reached such a stage in this country that we are willing, without raising our voice against it, to permit any man to tamper with liberties which the people have enjoyed for centuries ? Have party differences so embittered us that honorable senators opposite object to honorable senators on this side raising such a grievance before the grant of Supply? In my view, honorable senators opposite are evading an obvious duty. It does not rest with me alone to protest against a regulation of this kind. No man who loves liberty could justify such a regulation used in the way in which this has been used, against one party aud only after a request, not to a public officer, but to the Right Honorable W. M. Hughes, the man chiefly interested in the referendum campaign. This regulation, and the way in which it was applied, not merely invaded the liberties and rights of the people, but polluted the fountain of justice. Apart from the invasion of individual rights, this regulation invaded the right of the people to hold public meetings. Is not that a right which ought to be protected? Are we to have public meetings held in fear and trembling that any word which may escape our lips, no matter how true it may be, may involve us in a penalty if we are unable to prove its truth to the satisfaction of a magistrate, who may never have given a moment&#39;s thought to the question. I take the case of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. J.</inline> H. Catts, the honorable member for Cook. <inline font-style="italic">No</inline> man I know of is as well informed on the Eastern question as is that gentleman. For three years and longer he has made it his business &#39;to become acquainted with the nature of the menace from the North. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3306</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K1J</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">PRATTEN, Herbert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Pratten</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Has he ever been there ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3306</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- No, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Catts</inline> has not been to Japan, but, speaking of that which I know, I say, in view of the sources of his information, that there is no man in this country in a better position to speak authoritatively on the Northern menace. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3306</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K1J</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">PRATTEN, Herbert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Pratten</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- He has read up the subject. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3306</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Yes, he has read it up. He stood upon a public platform and took the responsibility of his utterance, and he was then dragged before a magistrate and bound over on six or seven different conditions to say no more on that line. He desired to appeal to a higher Court, and his right to appeal was refused. That in liberty-loving Australia, by a Government that appears bent on taking from us the liberty we enjoy ! </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3306</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">PRATTEN, Herbert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Pratten</name>
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            <para>- Is it wise that everybody should say what he likes ab this juncture? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3306</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- The public men of this country have shown that they have nob exercised their privileges unfairly in Parliament or outside it. If it is not wise for men to say at this time the things they would jay at other times, it is a great deal less wise to allow regulation - made laws to prevent public men, who take full responsibility for all they say- </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3306</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K1J</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">PRATTEN, Herbert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Pratten</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The honorable senator, as an ex-Minister, knows that there is such a thing as public indiscretion. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3306</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Is it to be punished by men being dragged before the Courts and penalized ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3306</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K1J</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">PRATTEN, Herbert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Pratten</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Yes; if that is the only way to stop it. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3306</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- If that is the honorable senator&#39;s idea of liberty, if the Attorney-General or some one else is to be the judge of our rights, then our rights and liberties will exist, only until feeling runs sufficiently high for some one in authority to want to check us. There is no fear of the relations between Australia and any of the Allies being interfered with by free speech, but the hush-up and  smother-up  policy, the secret diplomacy method, the attempt to maintain friendship with the open hand and the hidden dagger, will not preserve friendship with our Allies. If what <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Catts</inline> says is true, Japan has a right to know it, and to know, too, that Australia knows it, and then Japan&#39;s answer will tend more towards good feeling and friendship between Australia and Japan than any of the present hush-up methods. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Catts&#39;</inline> speech consisted simply of quotations drawn from a hundred sources, and given to his public meeting almost without comment. He used no wild obnoxious language, but made merely a statement of facts as he saw and read them. Do honorable senators think it tends to a better understanding between Japan and Australia if we do not speak freely&#39; of each other? Does Japan exercise a censorship or control over what is said of Australia in her newspapers? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3307</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K2L</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Does she say anything about Australia in her newspapers? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3307</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I am not going to be led, in my position in Parliament, to say what I know is said. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3307</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K2L</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
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            <para>- You cannot produce it. All that is buncombe to the gallery. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3307</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- I regret tha*, the honorable senator should make that statement. Does he think that a statement like this appearing in a Japanese newspaper means anything: - &#34;The Marshall Islands must be taken as a stepping-stone to the South Pacific. When this war ends the Pacific Ocean will lose its&#39; name&#34;? The man who will not look fact3 in. the face is in the same position as the Britisher years ago when he was being warned of what was happening in Germany. The law which prevents a public man from stating facts should be&#39; wiped out. If it is a regulation, so rauch the worse for the people who will submit to it. I will not. I said on the public platform that, so far as that law was concerned, it did not bind me nor put a padlock on my lips. The fact that I got through without even a charge of making a misstatement is a proof of my great truthfulness that I can hand down proudly to my children. Even the Government, with their War Precautions regulations, with their pimp3 and spies attending public meetings, could not find one utterance which&#34; would justify them on the most flimsy pretext in dragging me before a magistrate.&#39; </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3307</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JU7</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">DE LARGIE, Hugh</name>
              <name role="display">Senator de Largie</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- George Washington the second. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3307</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
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            <para>- I do not see why I should take second place to Washington. Why not have an Australian who will take first place ? We have a number of people in this country entitled to stand side by - side with Washington for truthfulness, and I may as well quote a few of their statements. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3307</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Needham</name>
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            <para>- Then do not quote &#34; Billy &#34; Hughes. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3307</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- I will quote <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> first. The <inline font-style="italic">Art/us</inline> of the 12th instant reported <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> as having offered a way out of the present difficulty, and honorable senators will recollect that I invited the Leader of the Government iri the Senate to see if there was no way to bridge over the bitter chasm dividing the two sides at the present time. The <inline font-style="italic">Argus</inline> report of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> was as follows : - - </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para>When the Nationalist party was formed, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Tudor</inline> was asked to join and form a truly Nationalist party, which would include representatives of all sections of the House. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Tudor</inline> had declined to do so. The Leader of the Opposition would have none of it. If, oven now, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Tudor</inline> would say that he was prepared to work with the Nationalist party, he would be prepared to help him to do so; and if he <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Hughes)</inline> were in the way, and in his absence <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Tudor</inline> would join forces with the Nationalists, he <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Hughes)</inline> would stand down. </para>
        <para class="block">Naturally that was interpreted by the press, and I do not think any one could say they wrongly interpreted it, to mean that the Government, fresh from the white-wash brush of the GovernorGeneral, was prepared to extend the hand of friendship to the Opposition. I do not know whether <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> heard that <inline font-style="italic">his</inline> offer was likely to be accepted, but he took very good care that when it appeared in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> it did not read as he uttered it. This is what we find in the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> record -  . . If my friend will say to me now that he is prepared to work with this .party, I, for one, will be prepared to help him. If I am the man who stands in the way, and he will only work with the Nationalist party upon the condition that I am not Prime Minister, I will stand aside ifhe is prepared to agree to a policy acceptable to the Nationalist party. But I adjure him, as a representative of the people - and I appeal to every man on the opposite side - to find a <inline font-style="italic">modus vivendi</inline> whereby we can do the work we were sent here to do, and help Australia to perform her duty during the war. </para>
        <para class="block">
          <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline>in that report has added these words, &#34; If he isprepared to agree to a policy acceptable to the Nationalist party.&#34; I know that upon those conditions <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Tudor</inline> could have been a Minister in the Nationalist party eighteen months ago, when the parties were being formed. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3308</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
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            <para>- And those conditions were turned down then? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3308</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- Turned down ! If he were prepared to agree to the National policy ! The point that I want to make clear is that the Government are offering no bridge to span the gulf that separates parties. And they are wise in not doing so. The difference dividing Australia to-day is not the difference between its public men.The difference dividing Australia, and that has each party, as it were, panting, ready to jump at the other&#39;s throat, is the fact that the power-holding classes, as soon as they got this National Government into power, made war on the unions from one end of Australia  to the other. They forced the most wretched strike we ever had - it may suit honorable senators to jeer at that, but they deliberately forced it, when the Government under its War Precautions Act proposed to take from the unions the award they had earned by years of labour and the expenditure of thousands of pounds of their hard-earned savings. The Government is wise in not trying to reconcile those representing the different classes in Parliament, but any Government is blind that fails to see the dissension and strife it is creating at a time like this, when the one aim and object of every man in public or private life should be to link together in unity all sections and classes of the community. A Government that makes open war on the trade unions, a Government that makes every member of a trade union an enemy of the Government - honorable senators may not believe me, but I tell them that the fact that there are men penalized and prevented from earning their living simply bv the fact that they are trade unionists, gives me more concern than all our parliamentary differences. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3308</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K2L</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
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            <para>- Where are there such men? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3308</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- In Sydney. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3308</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K2L</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
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            <para>- What are they penalized for? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3308</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
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            <para>- One of them was penalized for taking the chair as a trade unionist at a public meeting. Another who worked for fifteen years in a Department is not to be allowed employment again because he acted as a picket during the strike. This National Government, working in league with tha Niational Government in my own State, deliberately made war upon those trade unionists, and deliberately forced them to leave their positions. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3308</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JYF</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Earle</name>
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            <para>- I thought the strike was in consequence of the card system. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3308</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KTD</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">MCDOUGALL, Allan</name>
              <name role="display">Senator McDougall</name>
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            <para>- Who introduced the card system? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3308</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
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            <para>- The card system, it is true, was known to be a grievance, and this Government, in association with the New South Wales Government, saw that the time was ripe for creating dissension amongst the people. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3308</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
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            <para>- Does the honorable senator say that this Federal Government had anything to do with the introduction of the card system ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3308</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I say that the Federal Government were working in conjunction with the New South Wales Government politically to cause the dissension which led up to the strike. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3308</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The honorable senator knows perfectly well that this Federal Government had nothing to do with the introduction of the card system. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3308</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The Minister need not try to drag me down to one particular detail in that political conspiracy. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3308</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The trouble is we cannot pin you down to any statement. You said that the Federal Government worked in conjunction with the State Government for the introduction of the card system. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3308</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
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            <para>- I never said anything of the kind. What I said was that the Federal Government, in conjunction with the New South Wales Government, forced on the recent disastrous strike, and I have by me extracts to prove my statement, except, perhaps, to those who, seeing, will not see. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JYF</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Earle</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Will the honorable senator be able to prove his statements to the satisfaction of the general public ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I think the general public are gradually becoming acquainted with the true facts. I could quote correspondence showing that <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hall,</inline> with <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Chris.</inline> Watson, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Holman,</inline> anda number of Sydney editors, held a meeting to discuss how the campaign should be conducted. My honorable friend wants me to prove that men were sacked because they were unionists; well, I charge the National Government with holding positions from men because they were unionists. If the honorable senator has any doubt about the matter, he is one of the very few people in this country who are in doubt. What was the position? Men from one end of New South Wales to the other were written to and asked to hold themselves in readiness in the event of a strike. Will the honorable senator doubt that this was done, or that the Minister who was responsible for this instruction was <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Beeby,</inline> and that <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Beeby</inline> and <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hall</inline> were over in Melbourne for weeks getting ready for the strike? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JYF</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Earle</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- That is only your statement. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I am aware of that, and I take full responsibility for it. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JYF</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Earle</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- That is not a charge against the present National party, anyhow. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            </talker>
            <para>- I say that the people I refer to were in daily, and almost hourly, communication with this Government, getting ready for the strike. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K2L</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Why should they go out of their way to bring about that calamity ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- In the interest of the employing class, and in order to beat unionism. That is why. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K2L</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- But we have complete freedom in this country. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I am glad to know the honorable senator rejoices in his freedom after, possibly, a longer period of slavery, as he would term it, than I have suffered. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K2L</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Yes, and I have achieved something. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>3309</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>KLS</name.id>
            <electorate>QUEENSLAND</electorate>
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            <name role="metadata">GIVENS, Thomas</name>
            <name role="display">The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon T Givens</name>
          </talker>
          <para>- Order! I must ask the honorable senator to address the Chair. </para>
        </talk.start>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- And I must ask you, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. President,</inline> to kindly prevent these interjections. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>3309</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>10000</name.id>
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            <name role="metadata">PRESIDENT, The</name>
            <name role="display">The PRESIDENT</name>
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          <para>- I will protect the honorable senator when necessary. In the meantime, I must ask him to address the Chair. </para>
        </talk.start>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The fact that, although I delivered some forty speeches during the campaign, and that the Government spies and pimps were about taking notes, I was not dragged before a magistrate, is, I think, almost a public testimonial of my truthfulness. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Earle</name>
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            <para>- Or, rather, a testimonial of official leniency. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JRW</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">CRAWFORD, Thomas</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Crawford</name>
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            <para>- Did the honorable senator not have any eggs thrown at him? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- Well, there was ohe place - I refer to Manly - where the people seemed to enjoy themselves at my expense. It was there that they attempted to howl me down, and sang that good old German tune &#34; God save the King,&#34; thus degrading our National Anthem. They also sang &#34;Rule Britannia.&#34; They counted me out, and used all the methods that could be employed by an excited crowd to prevent a man from being heard. The meeting at Manly was the worst I have ever spoken at in all my life. But I do not blame them. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JRW</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">CRAWFORD, Thomas</name>
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            <para>- The honorable senator should have been at some of the conscription meetings in Queensland. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3309</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- I do not know that it was the singing of our National Anthem that disturbed me as a loyal citizen so much as the manner in which it was sung by a crowd of society hoodlums, who were trying to drown my voice. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Lynch</name>
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            <para>- What is the honorable senator complaining about? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- I am not complaining. I recognise that if people have the right to cheer and applaud my utterances when they are in agreement, they have also the right to hoot or hiss if they disagree with my sentiments. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
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            <para>- As applied to the honorable senator, I do not know that I would question that theory. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3309</page.no>
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            <para>- No ; and I can assure the honorable senator that it is a perfectly sound one. I am only pointing out that Nationalists, if assured that they are in a majority, can display just as much ill-feeling and improper conduct as any other section of the community. That, meeting at Manly was the worst feature in the whole of my public career of twentyfive years, though, possibly, I enjoyed myself there as much as at any other gathering, because, after all, the temper of the crowd showed that the people were in deadly earnest over this question. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3310</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">CRAWFORD, Thomas</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Crawford</name>
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            <para>- If the honorable senator had been struck by some of the eggs that were thrown at conscriptionist speakers in Queensland, perhaps he would not have enjoyed it. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3310</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- I cannot pretend, of course, that I have a liking for an overripe egg, but even the odour of such a missile would not he half so offensive or stink nearly as much in the nostrils of the public as some of the statements made by &#34; Yes &#34; advocates. Such statements, for instance, as that a &#34; No &#34; vote would rob Australia of its rightful place in this war ; that a &#34; No &#34; vote would hold Australia up to ridicule and the contempt of the world; statements such as those made by the Minister for the Navy <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Joseph Cook),</inline> to the effect that Great Britain was carrying Australia on her shoulders; or the statement made by the Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Hughes),</inline> that opponents of the referendum included theI.W.W., Sinn Feiners, and those whose hands were stained with German gold. T wonder how <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Lynch</inline> regards the criticism of Sinn Feiners? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3310</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JYF</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Earle</name>
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            <para>- Many of them were among the &#34; No &#34; advocates. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3310</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- I am speaking sarcastically, of course, because honorable senators know, as I do, that, although the Prime Minister spoke in that vein, he did not believe what he was saying, because, if his opponents&#39; hands were stained with German gold, how is it that he has since made an offer to the Leader of the Opposition to get out of the Ministry if the Labour party will join forces with Nationalists? What sort of a traitor is he if, believing that statement to be correct, he now asks for the co-operation of these persons in the, government of this country? It is high time honorable senators looked for traitors in high places. One who calmly and deliberately considers what has happened in this country since <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> returned from Great Britain might well ask if his business here is not German business - if   his business here has not been to prevent this country from doing its share as it has done it in the past. It has done more than its share if what it has done is compared  with what has. been done by any other country that is fighting. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3310</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Earle</name>
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            <para>- The honorable . senator is wrong there. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3310</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- According to Major-General Maurice, from July to November, 1917, the portion df the fighting line in France and Flanders for which Greati Britain was responsible was held by 82 per cent, of British troops, 9 per cent, of Australian troops, 7 per cent, of Canadian, and 2 per cent, of New Zealand troops. Australia has&#39; a population of less than 5,000,000 persons; the population of Great Britain exceeds 46,500,000. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3310</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K2L</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
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            <para>- The honorable senator forgets that Great Britain is making munitions for all the Allies. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3310</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- I cannot speak of all that Great Britain has done, but I am trying to put in a word for what has been done by Australia, which my honorable friends held up to ridicule and contempt whenever they spoke during the recent campaign. If the figures I have quoted are correct, Australia, in proportion to population, was as well represented in the fighting line as Great Britain, and as well represented as Canada and New Zealand put together. Yet honorable senators say that Australia has not done her share. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3310</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- She has not done enough; we do not say that she has not done her share. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3310</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
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            <para>- It is not a matter of shares. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3310</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GUTHRIE, Robert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Guthrie</name>
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            <para>- We have not won the war yet, and we shall not have done enough until the war has been won.- </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3310</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Earle</name>
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            <para>- We must do all that we can. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3310</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- What was the meaning of the appeal to the people during the recent referendum ? Did not honorable senators opposite, by their words and actions, say, &#34; Australia not) having done her share, we will force her to do it.&#34; </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3310</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
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            <para>- Force the slackers - those who have not and will not do their share unless under conscription! </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3310</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- My honorable friend would find an excuse for anything. Then, take <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Pearce&#39;s</inline> figures. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3311</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KNB</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <role />
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              <name role="metadata">GUTHRIE, Robert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Guthrie</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- No; take General Legge &#39;s figures. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3311</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- I have no de partmental authority for saying that General Legge was in possession of any. figures of which the Minister was not in possession when he made his public speeches. </para>
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              <page.no>3311</page.no>
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            <para>- General Legge&#39;s figures were sent to every one of us. </para>
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            <para>- The honorable senator will accept any figures that make his case a good one. Ou the 1st October, 1916, according to a return &#39;laid on the table by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Pearce,</inline> our aggregate casualties had amounted to 73,000. and on the 31st October, 1917, thirteen months afterwards, <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Pearce,</inline> speaking in Sydney, said that the casualties had increased to 109,000, an increase of less than 36,000, taking the detailed figures. During the same period over 59,000 men in Australia volunteered, and were passed for service abroad. </para>
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              <page.no>3311</page.no>
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            <para>- And how many deserted 1 </para>
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            <para>- I challenge the honorable senator to show that the number of desertions was abnormal during the period referred to. </para>
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              <page.no>3311</page.no>
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            <para>- The number of men shipped, and the number of men in camp, are the figures to go on. </para>
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            <para>- In 1917, the Government did not send away 40,000 men. If the honorable senator knows that there were not men in camp who were supposed to be there, let him produce the evidence of it. </para>
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              <page.no>3311</page.no>
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            <para>- At the present time, there are four men coming back for every one going. </para>
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            <para>- When in thirteen months the casualties were less than 36,000, and the enlistments over 59,000, can it be said that the referendum was introduced to make Australia do her share? Those responsible for its introduction told the country that there were&#34; in our midst hundreds of thousands of slackers and shirkers. Yet nearly 390,000 men have enlisted - an army which, drawn up in a column four deep, would stretch over a distance of 80 miles. </para>
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              <page.no>3311</page.no>
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            <para>- All those who enlisted have not gone abroad. </para>
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              <page.no>3311</page.no>
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            <para>- The 360,000 men who have gone abroad, drawn up in a column four deep, would stretch over a distance exceeding 50 miles. </para>
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              <page.no>3311</page.no>
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            <para>- On what ground does the honorable senator say that Australia has done her share? </para>
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              <page.no>3311</page.no>
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            <para>- What Australia has done has been accepted by every country in the world as something to be proud of, except by those Australians by adoption who, their own country being in danger, want to hunt Australians to fight for them. </para>
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              <page.no>3311</page.no>
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            <para>- Keep quiet, Botany Bay. </para>
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            <para>-Here is a gentleman who has come to this country, who, in an Australian Parliament, hurls against a fellow-citizen the taunt of Botany Bay. I shall meet him with that taunt in Western Australia. </para>
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            <para>- I shall hurl you into the Swan River if you go there again. </para>
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              <page.no>3311</page.no>
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            <para>- Is this &#34;bridging the gap &#34; ? </para>
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            <para>
              <inline font-weight="bold">- Senator Earle</inline>may hear the taunt of Botany Bay with composure, but it takes me some time to recover my equanimity when an alien, a man from the other side of the world, who has been placed by Australians on the highest pinnacle of preferment, and given a seat in this Parliament, refers to the early black days of our history. I would rather be the associate- </para>
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              <page.no>3311</page.no>
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            <para>- The interjection of <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Lynch</inline> is regarded by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Gardiner</inline> as offensive; and as, under the rules of debate, offensive remarks, because they lead to disorder and cause ill-feeling, are unparliamentary, I ask the honorable senator to withdraw what he said. </para>
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              <page.no>3311</page.no>
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            <para>- I withdraw it. </para>
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              <page.no>3311</page.no>
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            <para>- I certainly regard the interjection as offensive. </para>
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              <page.no>3311</page.no>
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            <para>- Then cease to be offensive by referring to men who came here. </para>
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              <page.no>3311</page.no>
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            <para>- I would rather be the associate of the worst criminal who ever landed at Botany Bay than of the man who, taken by the hand in this country, taunts me in this manner. </para>
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              <page.no>3311</page.no>
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            <para>- <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Lynch</inline> having at your direction, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. President,</inline> withdrawn an interjection which was alleged to be offensive, is it competent for <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Gardiner,</inline> or any other&#39; senator, to refer to it? </para>
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              <page.no>3312</page.no>
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            <para>- It is not in accordance with parliamentary practice that reference \phould be made to a statement that has been unreservedly withdrawn. </para>
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              <page.no>3312</page.no>
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            <para>-Thank you, sir, for your ruling. It is quite in accord with what I expected to hear that I may be insulted, but may not reply to. that insult. </para>
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            <para>- The honorable senator is&#62; not entitled to reflect on the Chair. I did not permit <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Lynch</inline> to be offensive without calling him to order. Immediately I found that his remark was offensive to the honorable senator I ordered it to be withdrawn. </para>
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              <page.no>3312</page.no>
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            <para>- Get the Minister to move that I be suspended. </para>
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              <page.no>3312</page.no>
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            <para>- Order ! I hope this debate will proceed without any personal allusions or ill-feeling. My whole anxiety is so to direct it that it will not be marked by any such incident. </para>
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              <page.no>3312</page.no>
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            <para>- When led off the track by the interjections, I was about to refer to certain statements made by Ministers. I shall preface my reference to them by quoting from a letter written by <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Edward</inline> Goschen, then British Ambassador at Berlin, to <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Edward</inline> Grey. In order to make it intelligible to those who may read the report of my speech, let me explain that this letter contains the memorable statement of the British Ambassador at Berlin in regard to what is known as the &#34; Scrap of Paper &#34; interview with the German Chancellor. Writing of his interview with the German Secretary of State, he goes on to state that - </para>
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        <quote>
          <para>I then said that I should like to go and see the Chancellor, as it might be perhaps the last time I should have an opportunity of seeing him. He begged me to do so. I found the Chancellor very agitated.  His Excellency  at once began a harangue which lasted for about twenty minutes. He said that the step taken by  His  Majesty&#39;s Government was terrible to a degree; just for a word - &#34;Neutrality,&#34; a. word which in war time had so often been disregarded - just for a scrap of paper Great Britain was going to make war on a kindred nation who desired nothing better than to be friends with her. All his efforts in that direction had been rendered useless by this last terrible threat, and the policy to which, as I knew, he had devoted himself since his accession to office had tumbled down like a House of cards. What  we had done was unthinkable; it was like striking a man from behind while he was fighting for his life against two assailants. He held Great Britain responsible for all the terrible events that might&#34; happen. I protested strongly against that statement, and said that, in the same way as he and Herr von Jagow  wished me to understand, that for strategical reasons it was a matter of life and death to Germany to advance through Belgium and violate the latter&#39;s neutrality, so I -would wish  him to understand that it was, so to speak, a matter of &#34; life and death &#34; for the honour of Great Britain that she should keep her solemn engagements to do her utmost to defend Belgium&#39;s neutrality from attack. That solemn compact had to be kept, or what confidence could any one have in engagements given by Great Britain in the future? The Chancellor said, &#34; But at what price will that compact have been kept? Has the British Government thought of that?&#34; I hinted to  His Excellency  as plainly as I could that fear of consequences could hardly be regarded as an excuse for breaking solemn engagements. But  His Excellency  was so excited, so evidently overcome by the news of our action, and so little disposed to hear reason that I refrained from adding fuel to the flame by further argument. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">I have made that quotation for a definite purpose. Every one of us on reading that letter, which was broadcasted by the Government, soon after the war broke out, felt his heart beat with pride in the knowledge that Great Britain had entered this war on a higher moral plane than had Germany. We realized that Great Britain went into this war with her eyes open as to what would be the result of her action. Knowing the awful cost, knowing that it would mean a perfect holocaust of human lives, she was yet determined to keep her word. I, as a unit of this Empire, felt a thrill of . pride when I read this statement; and realized what British statesmen were prepared to do in order to keep their word. And I, as an Australian, am now going to place on record a few facts that will serve to show how Australian statesmen keep their word. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> gave some pledges during the recent campaign; he practically gave, in fact, a fresh pledge at each place at which he spoke. Speaking at Bendigo, as reported in the <inline font-style="italic">Argus</inline> of 13th November last, he said -  . . We who were elected on a Winthewar policy tell you plainly that thu situation in Russia and Italy is such that without the power to insure reinforcements we cannot give effect to the policy which you approved with such enthusiasm last May. </para>
        <para>I tell you plainly that the Government must have this power. It cannot govern the country without it, and will not attempt to do so. </para>
        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3312</page.no>
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            <para>- What is wrong with that? </para>
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              <page.no>3312</page.no>
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            <para>- There is nothing wrong with the statement.  But I ask the honorable senator whether he, as. an honorable man, is satisfied with the way in which that promise has been kept. Then, again, the Postmaster-General <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Webster),</inline> as reported in the <inline font-style="italic">Age</inline> of 6th December last, addressed a large audience at Yass in favour of an affirmative vote, and - </para>
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        <quote>
          <para>He declared that if the referendum were not carried the Ministry would resign within twenty-four hours, with the result that the government of the country would he handed over to strikers, disloyalists, and Industrial Workers of the World and Sinn Feiners. </para>
          <para class="block">The Minister for Works and Railways <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Watt),</inline> speaking at Malvern, said, as reported in the <inline font-style="italic">Argus</inline> of 14th November last - </para>
          <para>The Ministry, on this question, did not say, &#34;This is our proposition; take it or leave it.&#34; So earnest, did it feel that it was prepared, as it should he, to say, &#34;We stand or fall by the verdict of the people.&#34; That promise was not to be lightly given. After so clear a mandate from the people on 5th May, it was not an easy thing to say, &#34; If you do not agree with our propositions to help or to save this nation, we can no longer continue in office.&#34; The Ministry, however, felt that it was its duty to conscientiously impress upon the people the gravity of that issue by that declaration. </para>
          <para class="block">I do not think I should give <inline font-weight="bold">Sir William</inline> Irvine precedence over our own Ministers in making these quotations. I am not inclined to do so. </para>
        </quote>
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              <page.no>3313</page.no>
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            <para>- Yet he has been more useful to the honorable senator&#39;s party. </para>
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              <page.no>3313</page.no>
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            <para>- I shall make a few references to statements made by him. </para>
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            <para>- The honorable senator will show his gratitude to him. </para>
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            <para>- I have no feeling of gratitude towards <inline font-weight="bold">Sir William</inline> Irvine, Indeed, I regard hia utterances during the campaign as those of an enemy to Australia. Speaking at Bathurst, the Minister for Repatriation <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Millen)</inline> was asked what would happen if the &#34;&#39;No &#34; vote were carried, and it is reported that, &#34; The Minister declared, amid applause, the Government would go out of office.&#34; Do I still see <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Millen</inline> sitting at the Minister&#39;s table, or - </para>
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        <para>Do I sleep? Do I dream? </para>
        <para>Do I wander and doubt? </para>
        <para>Are things what they seem? </para>
        <para>Or is visions about? </para>
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            <para>- My statement seems to have been a very little one. </para>
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            <para>- It was probably the most remarkable utterance in the honorable senator&#39;s career. I have known him for many years, and honorable senators will agree that I am not trying to misrepresent him when I say it is very rarely indeed that he gives a definite answer to any question. The honorable senator does not smile at that statement; he knows that it is a fact. </para>
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              <page.no>3313</page.no>
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            <para>- He is a tactician. </para>
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            <para>- He is a tactician; but, having for the first time attempted to be definite, he now finds that he has to live down his statement. Then we had <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Greene,</inline> the Government Whip, making a similar statement. There was also a statement by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Pearce</inline> to the effect that a &#34; No &#34; vote meant the dissolving of our connexion with the Empire. Strange to say, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Watt</inline> took almost the same attitude ; and, speaking at Parramatta, said - </para>
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        <para>If we say &#34; No,&#34; we will renounce our intention to maintain our partnership in the Empire. That is not an idle threat. </para>
        <para class="block">I am glad to know that it was no idle threat. The people did say &#34; No &#34; ; and I say that, under wise government, the relationship with the Empire can be kept as strong and firm as ever. </para>
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              <page.no>3313</page.no>
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            <para>- Come over here, and give us the &#34;wise government&#34; you speak of ! </para>
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              <page.no>3313</page.no>
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            <para>- I am not egotistical enough to imagine that I can do it, and I am quite sure the honorable senator could not. Given wise government, the links, chains, or threads that bind Australia to the Empire will remain. But give us a Government&#34; that outrages every sense of decency, give us, for instance, a Government that, behind the backs of the people, would enforce conscription, and I will not answer for any further connexion with the Empire. We ought to take a warning from these facts - from the feeling in the public mind. We have an overwrought people organizing to protect their liberties, which every day are threatened in the name of loyalty to the Empire. Our loyalty will stand a great deal stronger test if it is allowed to develop in its own way. It is the &#34;crimson thread,&#34; and not War Regulations, that will make us loyal; we shall not make people loyal by dragging them before magistrates in order to make them speak the truth. I do not know whether <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Millen</inline> would need any such step being taken in order to make him speak the truth. </para>
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              <page.no>3314</page.no>
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            <para>- I shall speak the truth in my reply. </para>
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            <para>- That is just it; instead of dealing with the Bill, as he ought to have done, and permitting me to have the opportunity to reply, <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Millen</inline> submits the motion without a word, intending to take full advantage of his right of reply. But that is only in keeping with the tactics of his whole lifetime. </para>
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              <page.no>3314</page.no>
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            <para>- I did not suppose that any one was going to attack the Government. </para>
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            <para>- However that may be, I said I had a few words to say about <inline font-weight="bold">Sir William</inline> Irvine. I am not going to run with my hat off and salute him as a heaven-born statesman. I have as much contempt for his judgment as I would for that of a man who, on the 17th March, would walk in the Hibernian procession wearing an orange ribbon itnd whistling &#34;The Battle of the Boyne&#34; ; or of a man who, on the 12th July, would take part in an Orange celebration wearing a green ribbon, and singing&#34; The Wearing of the Green.&#34; That represents the statesmanship of <inline font-weight="bold">Sir William</inline> Irvine, who is always &#34;butting in&#34; when it would be better for him to refrain. He has held positions in the public life of this country that should enable him to exercise such judgment, in times like these, as not further to divide the people. I am told, on what I consider good authority, that the Public Service of Victoria has not yet recovered, and is not likely to recover, from the attack he made on it in 1902. When this war broke out, it found the two parties in this country fighting an election forced upon it by <inline font-weight="bold">Sir William</inline> Irvine attacking preference to unionists. No one will deny that it was his attitude on conscription that gave us, not only the first, but the second referendum. </para>
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        <para>What is the present position? When the Governor-General was looking round for some one to take up the reins of government, did he send for <inline font-weight="bold">Sir William</inline> Irvine? I understand that  His Excellency  sent for nearly every one else - that any one with a tittle of parliamentary reputation was invited to advise him. </para>
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              <page.no>3314</page.no>
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            <para>- Did he send for you? </para>
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              <page.no>3314</page.no>
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            <para>- I happen to hold a position in a section of this Par liament where Governments are neither made nor unmade, and  His Excellency  had only to wait till the House met to hear my opinion. As I have said, I am not going to applaud the statesmanlike qualities of <inline font-weight="bold">Sir William</inline> Irvine, when, after all the positions he has occupied in public life, we find him in the present crisis without a following. That is certainly nothing to the honorable gentleman&#39;s credit. If he has the parts and abilities that those who acclaim him say he has, why does he cut such a poor figure at a time like this? There are, however, matters on which I would take him as a guide. Living in the aloof atmosphere of a man who cares for no one&#39;s opinion but his own, he is, perhaps, a particularly good exponent of codes of honour. Speaking at Wagga, the honorable gentleman said - </para>
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        <quote>
          <para>The Government has declared in language which admits of no shadow of ambiguity that it will not attempt to continue governing this country without the powers asked for in this referendum. That is a clear, definite, and welcome assertion of the truth of Government responsibility in an issue vital to our national honour and safety. No other course would have been possible. The Government says, in effect - &#34;You must choose between our party with conscription and the Official Labour party without conscription.&#34; In this pledge the Government must not be allowed to stand alone. All members sitting behind the Government are hound by it in honour, or they cease to be Government supporters. Hence no Ministry can be formed on the Nationalists&#39; side of the House which will attempt to carry on the Government, without conscription. It is clear, therefore, that should the electors decline the responsibility of sanctioning conscription by a direct vote, one of two things must happen - either the government of this country must be handed over to <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Tudor&#39;s</inline> party, or the Nationalist party in Parliament must take the full responsibility of its policy even should that necessitate an appeal to the constituencies. </para>
        </quote>
        <para>No one will disagree with that. That was a clear statement of the position that the Government assumed when they made their political lives, and their positions in the Cabinet, depend on whether the referendum was carried or not. </para>
        <para>I do not claim that an adverse vote should have called on the Government to resign, but the Leader df the Government, and, as I believe, every member of it, pledged themselves individually and collectively that if the vote went against them they wouldno longer govern. <inline font-weight="bold">Sir William</inline> Irvine declared that in the case of an adverse vote the Government would refuse to conduct the affairs of the country. He not only said that the Government would resign, but that no -section of the National party would accept office. In fairness to <inline font-weight="bold">Sir William</inline> Irvine, I must say that he has since stated in the House that he did not mean his remarks to apply to those who disagreed with the pledge and publicly announced the fact, but only to those who acquiesced in it. </para>
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              <page.no>3315</page.no>
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            <para>- Obviously, he could not bind anybody but himself. </para>
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            <para>- Of course. Although I refuse to take <inline font-weight="bold">Sir William</inline> Irvine as a guide in most matters that require foresight and judgment in dealing with the Australian people, he may, in this particular phase of public life, be relied on to distinctly point to a course of honour ; and that course required, not only that the Government should resign, but that <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Tudor</inline> should be sent for. </para>
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              <page.no>3315</page.no>
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            <para>- He was. </para>
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              <page.no>3315</page.no>
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            <para>- I accept <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Guthrie&#39;s</inline> statement. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Tudor</inline> was sent for, and expressed a willingness to form a Government. It was reasonable to suppose, I think, that in the present grave&#39; crisis there would have been enough patriotism on the other side to enable <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Tudor</inline> to carry on had he brought forward a war policy worthy of support. </para>
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        <para>I turn now to another distinguished lawyer, a man of very much political experience, and one whom I hold in perhaps more contempt than <inline font-weight="bold">Sir William</inline> Irvine. I refer to <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Holman,</inline> the Premier of New South Wales. He saw clearly that the straight and constitutional course for the Government to adopt was not only to resign, but to place the Opposition in office. Honorable senators have reminded me that the GovernorGeneral sent for quite a number of men, and sought their advice. There was no occasion for him to seek such advice. Never was a clearer issue put before a Governor-General or a reigning monarch. The issue was so clear that there was only one proper thing to do. When the Government, representing the whole of the Nationalist party, expressed by their resignation their unwillingness to continue to conduct the affairs of the country, the only course for  His Excellency  to adopt was to send for the Leader of the Opposi tion. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Guthrie</inline> has interjected that the Governor-General did send for <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Tudor.</inline> He did; that fact makes worse this pretence and make-believe. When the Leader of the Opposition was sent for, whether he should be intrusted to form an Administration or not depended upon what he said. If he was prepared to undertake the task of forming a Ministry it&#39; was for Parliament to say whether his Cabinet should remain in office or not. Such a decision was not in the domain of the Governor-General  His Excellency  may be a very high constitutional authority ; he may have some excellent qualities, but he has no right to interfere between the political parties of this country when the right path is. so plain that no man could fail to see it. If <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Tudor</inline> was wrong when he expressed the opinion that he could form a Cabinet to carry on the Government - and I say there were reasonable grounds for thinking that he would be able to carry on- </para>
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              <page.no>3315</page.no>
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            <para>- Let us hear those grounds. </para>
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              <page.no>3315</page.no>
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            <para>- I. will read the opinion of a Nationalist whose opinion is entitled to respect. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Holman</inline> said - </para>
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        <quote>
          <para>I am certain that the Tudor Ministry would obtain at the hands of the present Nationalist party in the Federal Parliament every measure of patriotic consideration, and would obtain support in every step sincerely taken in the interests of voluntary recruiting. If, however, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Tudor</inline> and his friends find that they can only live as a Government by listening to the counsels of the extremists amongst their followers - if they feel bound to give effect to immoderate resolutions carried by irresponsible conferences - if they forget that they represent the majority only on one point, and permit themselves to imagine that they represent it on all points, then it seems to me that this healing compromise, such as I and others are hoping for, will fail, and we shall have to return to a newly constituted National Govern- . ment. </para>
        </quote>
        <para>We find not only in the statements of <inline font-weight="bold">Sir William</inline> Irvine and <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Holman,</inline> but also in the speeches of almost every Minister who, prior to the vote, dealt with the question, that all were agreed that the one clear course, if the Government resigned, was that the Leader of the Opposition should be sent for. Such a procedure would be in accordance with constitutional practice. </para>
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              <page.no>3315</page.no>
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            <para>- We do not go to a State Minister for decisions on Federal matters. </para>
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            <para>- I know that; but I am quoting the public utterance of a Nationalist to show that there were reasonable grounds for believing that in the present grave crisis any Government coining forward to carry out a strong war policy would receive the support of Nationalists in the Senate and in another place. If they did not receive that support so much the better for Parliament; the Government could have been removed from office within a couple of minutes if the Opposition had so desired, and no time would have been lost. The Nationalists have not got rid of their trouble by the white-washing process they have adopted. </para>
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        <para>The Government resigned, and the GovernorGeneral invited <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Tudor</inline> to see him. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Tudor</inline> expressed his willingness to form a Government. I will not say it is  His  Excellency&#39;s peculiar way of joking, but I understand that he enjoyed considerably inviting to his councils all the men who thought they were prospective leaders of Australia in this crisis. <inline font-weight="bold">Sir John</inline> Forrest found his way to Government House. I am told that he had the longest interview, and fared sumptuously. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. ^Poynton</inline> was sent for, and I have no doubt that as he sat in his motor car while it hurried him to  His  Excellency&#39;s presence, he thought that Great Britain had at last sent us a constitutional Governor-General, a man capable of discerning the public man best fitted to lead Australia out of its troubles. When my late colleague, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Higgs,</inline> was sent for, doubtless he, too, with that grim humour for which he is so renowned, said, &#34; Here at last is a Governor-General above mere party arrangements. The man who is elected leader is not necessarily the only man to be called upon to form a Government. I have not been elected leader, but it has been said that leaders are born, not made.&#34; <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Wise</inline> was also summoned to Government House, and that honorable gentleman could truthfully tell  His Excellency  that he led the most solid party in Parliament, that as the leader of a party of one he alone could say there were no supporters wishing to displace him from the high position he held. Probably he thought that after having been for many years almost unrecognised by any of the other parties, he had arrived at a time when he was to be given the chance to lead Australia. I have no doubt that on his return he had quite a different opinion of the gentleman who had sent for him. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Joseph</inline> Cook, I understand, received a summons almost simultaneously with the Leader of the Opposition, because, as the latter left  His  Excellency&#39;s presence, the Minister for the Navy was ready to be ushered in. What a strange idea was this,, of looking for somebody to take the job ! Here were all these possible leaders, one after the other receiving a mysterious message, &#34;  His Excellency  the Governor-General wishes to see you.&#34; We can imagine the hurry, the excitement, and all the thoughts that went flashing through their minds. I do not think that any one will say that  His Excellency  desired to see <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Cook</inline> in order to get his opinion about the crisis. Anybody who knows the honorable gentleman realizes that he would at once say, &#34; Let everything else go, provided I remain in office.&#34; </para>
        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3316</page.no>
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            <para>- The peculiar thing is that he did not send for any member of the Senate. </para>
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              <page.no>3316</page.no>
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            <para>- The- Senate is above party politics. But what was behind all this summoning of so many men ? Make believe - gulling the public, pretending there were difficulties where they did not exist, creating imaginary- difficultieswhere the course was clear and plain? What was the result? There are hundreds of thousands of men in Australia who feel that, through all this sham and make-believe, one fact stands clear - that Labour cannot get a fair deal ; and Labour will not get a fair deal until positions such as that of the GovernorGeneral are filled by Australians. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3316</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K2L</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- That is a reflection on the Governor-General. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3316</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
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            <para>- I do not think it is any reflection. The Standing Orders will not permit me to reflect on the GovernorGeneral, but if I am not allowed to criticise his actions in a constitutional crisis, I misunderstand my privileges in this Senate. What would have happened had there been a similar crisis in Great Britain, and a new procedure was adopted ? There were only two parties in this Parliament, and one of them, having said that it could not govern,  His  Excellency&#39;s plain duty was to say to the other party, &#34; Take up office.&#34; Then Parliament&#39;s business would begin. I have no time for a representative of  His  Majesty who would fish around to see where he could find permanency in parties, or find a man who could hold a political partnership together. He tells us that he found the prospect of the greatest permanency in <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes.</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3317</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KNB</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">GUTHRIE, Robert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Guthrie</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- And Parliament backed him up by forty-three votes to nineteen. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3317</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
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            <para>- There is no question that upon this issue  His Excellency  the Governor-General has the unanimous support of the Nationalist party. He tells us that he became convinced that <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> could best hold the Nationalist party together, but what business is it of his to know who can hold any party together?  His  business is to hold the balance evenly between the parties in Parliament, and it is Parliament&#39;s business to say who shall administer the affairs of the country. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3317</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K3B</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">ROWELL, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Colonel Rowell</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Parliament is saying that. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3317</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            </talker>
            <para>- Parliament is saying it only after it has been prevented, by the decision of His Excellency the Governor-General to send for the man who had resigned, from seeing whether the Labour party could put before the country a national policy, not the policy of the Nationalist party, but a policy that would link up the people and enable all sections of the community to pull together. That opportunity was lost. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para>Australia will have no chance of making good while the present Government remain in office. Ministers are pledged to the most bitter warfare against the Labour party. No word is too strong for them to utter in condemnation of us. They call us associates of the Industrial Workers of the World, Sinn Feiners, disloyalists,  and  traitors to the Empire, whose one desire is to place the dagger at the heart of Britain. </para>
        <para>I can afford to let all their abuse pass, but I cannot allow their efforts to degrade this Parliament to pass. Let us review them briefly. Less than twelve months ago this Senate was degraded through the majority that sat on this side being converted to a majority sitting on the Government side ; and this was brought about by a chain of circumstances which led the Prime Minister to say that he would use the Courts of Australia for the purpose of vindicating his character. When I asked for a Royal Commission for the purpose of vindicating our reputation, honorable senators opposite sheltered themselves behind the fact that the Prime Minister was taking action in the Courts, where the whole matter would be threshed out. What has happened since them? <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> has paid the costs of the man against whom he took action. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3317</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- What became of the action ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3317</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>
              <inline font-weight="bold">- Mr, Hughes</inline>paid the costs of the man against whom he took action. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3317</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KTD</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">MCDOUGALL, Allan</name>
              <name role="display">Senator McDougall</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Why did not <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> go into Court? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3317</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Why did <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Watson</inline> withdraw ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3317</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KTD</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">MCDOUGALL, Allan</name>
              <name role="display">Senator McDougall</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- He did not do so. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3317</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Let us follow the matter through carefully. If <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Millen</inline> is satisfied with a withdrawal where <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> paid &#163;500, representing his own costs and those of his opponent, if he regards that as a complete vindication of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes&#39;</inline> character, I am surprised. Tf he does, then all I can say is that such a leader deserves such a follower. The fact remains that the Government, which boasted in Parliament that they would vindicate their characters in the Courts of the country, paid all the costs of. the action. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3317</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
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            <para>- Your man pulled out. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3317</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
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            <para>- There was no withdrawal. What chance would <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Watson</inline> have had in Court if <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> could say, &#34;I offered to pay the costs; I offered to settle the matter out of Court&#34;? <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Watson</inline> is a straightforward, honorable, and generous man, and when <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes,</inline> through his solicitors, came forward and offered to pay the whole of his costs - to the last shilling - what else could he do? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3317</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JU7</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">DE LARGIE, Hugh</name>
              <name role="display">Senator de Largie</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Why did he not go on with the case? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3317</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Why go on with the case when the other fellow has chucked up the sponge? Why follow a man through the ring and scrunch him when the towel is thrown in ? Why go on when the other side has cried enough? There was no need to fight any longer. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Watson&#39;s</inline> character was vindicated when <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> paid the costs. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> said that he would vindicate his character in the Courts of the country. He failed to do so. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3318</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Lynch</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- What did <inline font-weight="bold">Mr, Watson</inline> say? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3318</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- What he was told to say. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3318</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- He accepted the surrender of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes.</inline> There was no other course open to him. If <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Lynch</inline> instituted a law case against me. and I went to him and admitted that I was wrong, telling him that I had made a mistake, &#34;and would , pay every penny of the costs to which he had been put, would he still persist in saying, &#34; I will make you fight it out in the Courts &#34; ? It was a complete surrender on the part of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes,</inline> and there was nothing left to fight for. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3318</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JYR</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">FAIRBAIRN, George</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Fairbairn</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Did the Prime Minister say that he was wrong ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3318</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
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            <para>- Yes, by paying the costs. That is not my only charge against the Government, because, with all their many whitewashings, they are the same old Government which attempted to corrupt Parliament. Their abuse has been bad enough in itself, but they have not been manly enough to stand to it. They have been heaping vile abuse on our party, and yet they say that it was only meant for outside consumption. If they would only stand to what they have said, one could deal with them. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3318</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Lynch</name>
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            <para>- I was endeavouring to ascertain what, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Watson</inline> said about <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes.</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3318</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The honorable senator heard what <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Watson</inline> said. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3318</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JU7</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">DE LARGIE, Hugh</name>
              <name role="display">Senator de Largie</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- He would not say it outside. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3318</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- There was no occasion to say it outside. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3318</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Then why was he pleading privilege if he was so anxious to go on with the case? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3318</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
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            <para>- When I stood up in this Senate, and claimed that the question of privilege would stand, <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Millen</inline> refuted my arguments, saying that it would not avail, and inquiry was evaded by that means. Many honorable senators would have stood for an inquiry if they had not thought that the honour of Parliament would be vindicated by the proceedings in the Courts, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes,</inline> however, evaded the conflict in the Law Courts. He threw down his weapons, put up the white flag, and said to <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Watson,</inline> &#34;I withdraw; I will pay all costs.&#34; What could <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Watson</inline> have done He could do nothing else than what he did. That incident itself was enough to condemn the Government. I say, with regard to the verdict of the electors on the 5th May, that the party opposite made such a mouthful of the statement that they were going to win the war that their party carried the people off their feet, and they won the day. But if the attempt to corrupt the Senate was not sufficient to condemn the Government, is it not enough to condemn them that, of their own volition, and by the exercise df their powers sitting in Executive, they robbed free-born Australians of their votes in the hope of securing for themselves a majority on a question in connexion with which the interests of the people they robbed were as great as their own? If they could take his vote from a man whose mother was an Australian and whose father was of German descent, then, upon any. paltry excuse, they could take his vote from any man in this community. What a miserable position that was to put the people of this country in. If King Edward himself, of blessed memory, had been an elector of this country he could not have voted at the referendum under that regulation. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3318</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KSU</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">MAUGHAN, William</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Maughan</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Nor could King George. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3318</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
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            <para>- I am quite certain that if King George were an elector, and had gone to the poll, his vote would have been . questioned by some impertinent returning officer or scrutineer acting for the National party. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3318</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Lynch</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The ideal justice of the National party. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3318</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
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            <para>- No ; their idea of justice. Their idea of justice is that those who will not vote with them must be disfranchised, and they passed a regulation to give effectto that idea. But. badly as the Government may have erred in passing such a regulation, I regard as far worse the action of men who. knowing these things to be wrong, still support that Government. This Government, most of the members of which came to Australia from another country, passed a regulation to prevent free-born Australians from voting They passed another regulation, which interfered with Britishers&#39; and Australians&#39; rights of public meeting, so that men could only address a public meeting in fear and trembling lest for any statement they might make they might be treated worse than a criminal. Under British justice a man is considered innocent until sufficient evidence has been submitted to convict him, but under a regulation passed by this Government a public  speaker,  whether he were a public mau or a private individual, speaking during the referendum was held to be guilty of making a false statement unless he could convince a magistrate that the statement was true. I have referred to the regulation which defranchised Australianborn electors. Honorable senators opposite will say that they were of German descent, that some of their forebears were Germans, or they would not have been disfranchised. Is it a crime in this country that one&#39;s ancestors were of German origin? If it is, why do we sing &#34;God Save the King&#34;? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3319</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KSU</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">MAUGHAN, William</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Maughan</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- And to German music ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3319</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
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            <para>- And to German music. There is a great sense of logic in the people of this country. If they are invited to believe that persons born in Australia ought to he disfranchised because their Australian parents were of German descent, the logical deduction from that may raise some question of the warrant for loyalty in a race who are pure German or pure alien, and in whom no British blood runs. Such a course of action simply serves to bring these things into public light, and compels men to think and talk about them whether they will or not. The less we irritate, harass, and nnnoy such a great section of the community as persons of German descent were irritated, harassed, and annoyed by the idiotic regulationto which I have referred, the better it will be for us. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para>I promised to give some figures to prove the statement made by ex-Senator Rae. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3319</page.no>
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            <para>- What was the statement? </para>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3319</page.no>
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            <para>- He said that there werenot more than 60,000 fit single men left in Australia, and for saying that hewas dragged before a magistrate. As I viewed the figures, I concluded that  there would b.e considerably less than that number of fit single men available for service if the referendum had. been carried. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3319</page.no>
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            <para>- Single men of military agc? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3319</page.no>
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            <para>- Yes. I am referring to fit single men of military age. I need not read the figures, as I used them at public meetings, and they are well fixed in my mind. The census taken on the 3rd April, 1911, showed that there were then 423,000 single men in Australia. What was the increase in the number of single men during 1912, 1913, and 1914, when the war commenced? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3319</page.no>
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            <para>- Why stop at 1914? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3319</page.no>
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            <para>- I am prepared to go right on, and ask what has been the increase in the number of single men during 1912, 1913, 1914, 1915, 1916, and 1917? The Prime Minister placed the increase in. the number of single men at 32,000 each year; that is to say, that each year that number of men passed from their twentieth to their twenty-first year. But it does not follow that the number of fit single men in each year was increased by that amount, because just as there are a certain number coming of age each year, so at the other end of the scale there are men passing from their forty-fourth to their forty-fifth year, and so dropping out of the class eligible for service. </para>
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        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3319</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">CRAWFORD, Thomas</name>
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            <para>- And a few get married each year, also. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3319</page.no>
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            <para>- That is one of the features of the case, to which I intend to refer. Whilst 32,000 each year come in at one end of the class of military age, at the other end a few thousand, who have escaped all the risks and dangers of matrimony, fall into the old-age section, and are not required to serve. Between the ages of twenty and forty-five, a great many men cease to be fit as the result of sickness, accident, and the other ills to which flesh is heir.This will account for another 5,000. I go back to the basis of the calculation, that on the 3rd April, 1911, there were 423,000 single men in Australia, and the suggestion that the number was increased in each subsequent year by 32,000. What do honorable senators think the marriage rate was for men between the ages of twenty and forty-five years ? Do they think that it was 2,000 or 3,000 each year? It represents a greater number than the number of single men who come of age in each year. That is particularly the case in prosperous years. </para>
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        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3319</page.no>
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            <para>- There is a suggestion of bigamy about this. </para>
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        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3320</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- There is no suggestion of bigamy about it. The number of bachelors between the ages of twenty and forty-four, inclusive who married during 1914, was 39,191. The number during 1915 was 40,974. Thus there are more men married in one year between those ages than there are men who would come of age. If we can accept the Statistician&#39;s statement, there&#39; were 423,000 single men in Australia in 1911 - and those figures are based on census returns compiled under the most scientific system throughout the Commonwealth - and if we can take the average of men married in 1914 and 1915 as about 40,000, there has been no great increase in the number of single men in this country since 1911. According to <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Pearce,</inline> 383,000 men had enlisted when he made his speech on the 31st October. If Ave can accept the Defence Department&#39;s estimate .that 83 per cent, of the enlistments are single men, we arrive at the fact that 323,000 single men enlisted. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3320</page.no>
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            <para>- You must deduct from the enlistments the number of men who deserted and are still in Australia. </para>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3320</page.no>
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            <para>- I will make full, allowance, because there is such &#39;an ample margin. On <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Pearce&#39;s</inline> figures, 316,000 men have crossed the water, although I believe Major-General Legge subsequently said that the figures, properly worked out, showed that only 298,000 men had gone. In the Ryan case, in Queensland, I heard MajorGeneral Legge say that about 40 per cent, of those who presented themselves to the doctor would not be passed. I will reduce that estimate to 25 per cent., that is, that of every four men who face the doctor, one fails to pass. </para>
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        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3320</page.no>
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            <para>- A lot of them go up about a dozen times and fail, and they count as twelve. </para>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3320</page.no>
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            <para>- There are many reasons why the estimate will either increase or decrease. But with our general knowledge of what is happening, we can safely take 25 per cent, as failing to pass the doctor as a very fair estimate. If only 75 per cent, of the single men offering pass, it follows that if 300,000 men pass into the ranks, another 100,000 fail to pass, showing that 400,000 single men have been through the doctor&#39;s hands. If, as the Statistician said, we had 423,000&#39; single men of the military age in 1911, where are the 60,000 men left? On the Statistician&#39;s own figures, if 300,000 enlisted, and 100,000 failed to pass the doctor, there are only 23,000 left. Moreover, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. William</inline> Morris Hughes has promised the people that the industries will be kept going, and the men essential to keep them going will not be called up. That applies to farming, wool raising - for the wool must come off the sheep&#39;s back - mining - the raising of the minerals to help to keep the war going - and other industries. The wheels of industry must be kept going, and none but the men in the jobs now can be trained in time to keep them going. A further deduction therefore must be made. With these figures staring the Government in the face, was ever a greater outrage perpetrated in this country than to drag a public man before a magistrate for daring to say there were not 60,000 single men left? Think of that outrage! Government supporters would not think of it unless it happened to themselves. I have given the Statistician&#39;s figures, and not a calculation of my own, for 1911; and the figures as to marriages are officially computed each year. Allowing- for marriages, for those within the ages who drop over the edge, and for accidents and ill-health, the fit single men in Australia are not increasing from year to year. </para>
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        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3320</page.no>
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            <para>- That is the most serious reflection upon civic affairs herethat you could make. </para>
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              <page.no>3320</page.no>
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            <para>- It is not a reflection upon them at all, particularly iu these years, because it is known that before 1910 Australia was cursed with a Liberal Government, and in that year she got a Labour Government which meant prosperity, prosperity meant marriages, and marriages meant lessening the number of single men. That is the reason why, taking the 1911&#39; figures, I challenge any one who speaks in opposition to say that there has been any increase in the number of fit single men in 1914, 1915, and 1916, compared with 1911. I believe the figures show that in 1916 the number of marriages was about 42,000.&#39; I am using those figures1 as every public man should, not to mislead, not to build on a false foundation that can be knocked from under me, but with a firm belief that they are correct. Seeing that we have a 24-year period for marriage, and only one year for coming of age, I am convinced there has been no very great increase in the number of single men in the years I have mentioned. Think therefore of the injustice and wickedness of dragging a man before a magistrate to prove his case, and of the magistrate saying, &#34;You were justified in making that statement, but I declare it to be false.&#34; </para>
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        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3321</page.no>
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            <para>- Practically he said, &#34; I find the accused to be a fool and not a rogue.&#34; </para>
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        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3321</page.no>
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            <para>- The honorable senator can put it that way, but if that is the position he tries to put our party in, all the worse for the regulation. The Government may use it to beat their political opponents on the win, tie, or wrangle principle, but there may yet be a Government in this country, not guided by reason, who may use the same methods to rob the members of the National party of their liberty. If they do, what answer can our honorable friends make? The Government who do these things in their day of power should remember that there is a to-morrow as well as to-day, and if ever there was a party that should look to to-morrow it is the present Ministerial party. When I move about the country I am astonished at the number of men who say, &#34; Let them bring in conscription. We will show them.&#34; No man understanding the conditions under which we are living in this complex society of ours can look with anything but horror to physical force as a means of checking misgovernment. It must be checked the moment it steps into the wrong path, and that moment is now. It will not be checked by remaining silent and allowing the Government to impose regulations of this kind. They are the most cursed regulations ever passed. They interfere with all that should be religiously protectedby a British people - the right of public meeting. Under them public men may be attacked by the pimp who comes with his pencil and scratches down what they say. Then they are convicted on his notes before a magistrate. </para>
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        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3321</page.no>
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            <para>- According to your figures, we have enlisted only 8 per cent, of our population, whereas France has put 16 per cent, of her population into the firing-line. </para>
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              <page.no>3321</page.no>
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            <para>- I am glad of the interjection because it helps me in the presentation of my case. </para>
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              <page.no>3321</page.no>
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            <para>- You must remember, also, that France has a declining population, whereas Australia&#39;s birth-rate, side by side with that of France, is much higher. </para>
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              <page.no>3321</page.no>
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            <para>- I remind the honorable senator that his leader, who led his party into all this trouble, when speaking during the recent campaign, made a comparison between the fighting forces of Canada and Australia, and in that comparison he divided the Canadians into two sections, namely, British Canadians and French Canadians, and he seemed to think there was not the same call for French as for British Canadians. </para>
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              <page.no>3321</page.no>
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            <para>- The same call, but not the same response. </para>
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              <page.no>3321</page.no>
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            <para>- If there was not the same response from French Canadians to enlist and fight in defence of French soil that had been invaded, and French cities that had been overturned, why should Australia be slandered ? </para>
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              <page.no>3321</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">FERRICKS, Myles</name>
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            <para>- The French Canadians&#39; also turned down conscription. </para>
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        </interjection>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3321</page.no>
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            <para>- Australians have stood back, also. </para>
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              <page.no>3321</page.no>
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            <para>- All I can do is to invite the honorable senator to study the enlistments. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3321</page.no>
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            <para>- A great many Australians have stood back, anyway. </para>
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              <page.no>3321</page.no>
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            <para>- That is only another twisting of this slander upon Australians. I maintain the enlistments in this country stand as the most brilliant achievement in defence of the Empire. It is more than honorable senators would have dreamed to be possible when the war started. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3321</page.no>
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            <para>- Credit is due to those men&#34; who have gone, and not to those who have stayed at home. </para>
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        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3321</page.no>
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            <para>- Another slander on Australians. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3321</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">CRAWFORD, Thomas</name>
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            <para>- The honorable senator is not just in saying that. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3321</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Yes, I am. I was in the Government that called up the men under the Home Service Proclamation in 1916, and what was the result? The Statistician&#39;s figures informed us that we could expect 176,000 men to report themselves. As a matter of fact, 190,000 reported themselves; but even after the most hurried examination only 110,000 single men between the ages of twenty-five years and thirty-one years were pronounced fit for service. Since then, over 50,000 have enlisted for active service. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3322</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JRW</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">CRAWFORD, Thomas</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Crawford</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Then there are 60,000 who have not enlisted. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3322</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            </talker>
            <para>- I am giving honorable senators the full benefit of the figures; but I ask how many of the remainder will be found unfit? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3322</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JRW</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">CRAWFORD, Thomas</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Crawford</name>
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            <para>- You said there were 110,000 fit men. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3322</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- That was after a cursory medical examination. If the honorable senator knew anything about the military business, he would know that some men offer themselves half-a-dozen times before they are accepted. Honorable senators opposite, who have been trying to force everybody else to the war, do not take count of these figures, and yet they stand in judgment on those men who have not gone. It is a libel on Australia, which has drained herself of her manhood, and undertaken obligations thatposterity will have to honour, to say that she has not done enough, and that her young men must be compelled to go. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3322</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Earle</name>
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            <para>- I never said that. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3322</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- The honorable senator and his friends did not say anything else on the public platform. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3322</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
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            <para>- I said nothing of the kind. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3322</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- Unfortunately, it fell to my lot to have to read a great many speeches made by honorable senators during the campaign, and the highly nervous state in which I now find myself is probably largely due to that cause. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para>This Government,twelve months after the first referendum had been turned down, madly rushed the people into &#39;another. There had been another fixing up by members of the Government. What was the basis of that arrangement? I invite the Leader of the Senate to give us, not a statement which can be read in two different ways, but &#39; a clear and definite utterance that may help to heal the differences between the parties. Feeling runs high in both Houses, and there is seething discontent among the masses of the people, who feel that the Government are looking for an opportunity to trick them out of the liberties they have hitherto enjoyed. Therefore, it is up to the members of this Government, if they want to better the present Icondition of things, if they are anxious to bridge the gulf dividing the parties, and which, as they say, is preventing the proper flow of recruits, to make a definite statement of policy on this question. With the exception of <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Pratten,</inline> whom I do not include in my general condemnation, I do not think there is a single honorable senator on the other side of the chamber who, prior to the referendum, did not justify conscription by saying that voluntarism has failed. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3322</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
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            <para>- And I say now that it has failed to supply sufficient men. I have been on the State Recruiting Committee , for two years, so T know something about the matter. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3322</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- I was associated with the Prime Minister at the close of 1915, when he became Leader of the Labour party, and when he said to the people of Australia,&#34; We require 50,000 volunteers by the end of June, 1916.&#34; The Prime Minister went to Great Britain, and how many volunteers did Australia give him before he returned? Over 130,000 men responded to the call. And yet our opponents said that voluntarism had failed. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3322</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
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            <para>- That view was taken only within the last twelve months. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3322</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>-That has been said for more than twelve months. The Prime Minister, I repeat, wanted 50,000 volunteers by the end of June. January, 1916, gave 22,000. February gave 18,000, and March 15,000, so there were 50,000 within three months. At the first referendum the Government asked for 16,500 men a month. Of course, that was quite absurd, and I remember, when I asked <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Pearce</inline> how many men he thought were required as reinforcements for 100,000 men inthe firing line, and he told me 16,500, I said that 5,000 a month was much nearer the estimate. What is the position to-day ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3322</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
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            <para>- That we are not getting 5,000 a month. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3322</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">LONG, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Long</name>
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            <para>- After three and a half years of war. You have not much to complain about </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3322</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- We were told that 16,500 men were necessary, but figures since made available, have shown that for the twelve months succeeding that request, 3,000 men per month would have filled all the gaps in the ranks. The Government since then have asked for 7,000 a month, and I invite the Leader of the Government to make himself acquainted with the message in, the Defence Department from General Birdwood saying that 5,500 would be sufficient. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
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            <para>- Do you say there is such a message? </para>
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        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
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            <para>- I do. Would the Minister like to know where I get my information from ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
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            <para>- Yes, I would. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- Well, I ob tained it from documents produced in the Court during the hearing of the case against <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Ryan,</inline> the Premier of Queensland. I was sitting in Court at the time, and I advise the Minister to ask the Defence Department for a copy of the cable from General Birdwood. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K1J</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">PRATTEN, Herbert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Pratten</name>
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            <para>- When was it sent? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- I am speaking of the Court case at the end of December. I could not say what was the date of the telegram, because I did not see it. I maintain that the voluntary system has not failed even after three years of war, because over 50,000 men enlisted from October, 1916, to the end of October, 1917. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JYT</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">FERRICKS, Myles</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Ferricks</name>
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            <para>- And yet they are&#39; crying stinking fish. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
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            <para>- Yet they say that the voluntary system has not done its share. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Lynch</name>
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            <para>- Boys and married men are going because the right sort will not volunteer. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- No one under eighteen years of age is allowed to enlist. Those who are going are going as free men,&#39; not as slaves. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Lynch</name>
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            <para>- Because others who should go will not go. </para>
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        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- Who is to be the judge? Has it fallen to the honorable senator&#39;s lot to say that another man shall fight when he will not fight&#39;, that another woman&#39;s son shall go when his mother&#39;s son has not gone. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
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            <para>- I have risked my life for another, which the honorable senator has never done. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- I do not attack the honorable senator&#39;s physical courage. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
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            <para>- The honorable senator has taunted me before. I fling back his taunts in his false teeth. I will not allow such taunts by him or by any one else. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>10000</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">PRESIDENT, The</name>
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            <para>- Order ! </para>
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        </continue>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3323</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- I have made no insinuation against the honorable senator in respect of his physical courage. I know that in Western Australia, at a town that we visited together, he jumped down from a public platform to punch a man. He got a stinking black eye, but he displayed great courage. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JYT</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">FERRICKS, Myles</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Ferricks</name>
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            <para>- And. bad judgment. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
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            <para>- And had judgment, as he is doing now. Although, in a period of thirteen months, 59,000 men enlisted, and the casualties were under 36,000, honorable senators went round the country saying that voluntarism had failed. How many men did they expect bo get? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
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            <para>- Possibly, under the voluntary system, not more than we got. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- As the voluntary system had been sufficient tomore than make good every vacancy caused by sickness or wounds, why is it not allowed to continue? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K2L</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
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            <para>- It is an unfair system. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- That is an argument which should have been raised at the commencement of the war. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">LONG, James</name>
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            <para>- Honorable senators kept quiet about it at the general election in May. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
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            <para>- I did not. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- Honorable senators then said to the electors, &#34; If you will vote for us, we shall promise that until the British Navy is a wreck in the North Sea, until some great disaster happens to us, we shall not introduce conscription.&#34; </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JRW</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">CRAWFORD, Thomas</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Crawford</name>
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            <para>- That it would not be introduced until another referendum had been taken. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- There has been another referendum. Are you going to introduce conscription now? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
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            <para>- We shall tell you byandby. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3323</page.no>
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            <para>- That is one of the weak and wicked statements that are dividing the country. What is needed is straightforward dealing with the people. These suggestions of what may be done by-and-by are a menace to the people&#39;s liberty. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3324</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
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            <para>- What is the menace ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3324</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- That, in the teeth of their declaration, you will still conscript them. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3324</page.no>
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            <para>- We never have conscripted them. </para>
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        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3324</page.no>
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            <para>- That you will continue to use your efforts to conscript them. From one end of the country to the other there is a suspicion, amounting to a belief, that the Government are awaiting an opportunity to conscript free Australia. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3324</page.no>
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            <para>- Seeing that the Government consulted the electors on the subject of conscription, they cannot properly be charged with menacing the people&#39;s liberty. </para>
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        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3324</page.no>
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            <para>- A Prime Minister must be taken to speak for his party, and, after <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> had been through Tasmania, South Australia, Victoria, Queensland, and New South Wales, and knew how the vote was going, he said, at Goulburn, at Junee, and at other places, &#34; I tell you, young&#39; men, that you will have to fight, whether &#39; Yes &#39; or &#39;No &#39; be carried. Parliament will make you.&#34; </para>
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        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3324</page.no>
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            <para>- Did the honorable senator hear him say that ? </para>
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        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3324</page.no>
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            <para>- I followed him at different places, and turned up the local newspapers to read what he had said. At Junee, the statement was made, &#34;You will have to fight. Parliament will make you.&#34; There is no mistaking the&#39; reply to that threat. As I said, if &#34; No &#34; Avere carried, and the Government persisted in conscripting men, or if &#34; Yes &#34; were carried by the faking or fixing of the soldiers&#39; vote, and <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> said that he would make Australians fight, he would get all the fight he wanted here in Australia. If Ministers and their followers are Avise, they will not persist in flying in the face of the people whose opinion they have asked. They will deny this dream of a mind that is, I shall not say diseased, but very excited, and will take steps to remove the suspicion that has been created. Imaginary grievances are more dangerous than real ones. </para>
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        <para>I have ammunition here for a very long speech, but I have no desire to occupy time longer, though I &#39;make no apology for the length of my remarks. Every member of the Ministry pledged himself to leave office, and Ministers have come back a discredited Government, having degraded the public life of the country by the breaking of their solemn word. No dressing up in new suits, no resigning and accepting office again, gets rid of the fact that they have been responsible for the most discreditable proceeding in Australian politics. . It would be wise if, instead of trying to cover up their tracks, and offering the extremists what they want, they Avould give up their idea of still&#34; forcing conscription. Unless, when the Leader of the Government sits down, there has been a clear reply to my statement, I shall continue to spread the belief that they are still forcing conscription. I am making that statement repeatedly, in the hope that Ministers will have the good sense to give it the emphatic denial to which it is entitled, if it is wrong. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3324</page.no>
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            <para>- You would not be lieve us. </para>
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        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3324</page.no>
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            <para>- No ; because I know you too well. The honorable senator, speaking at Bathurst, said that he and his colleagues would go out of office if the &#34; No&#34; vote were in the majority. The Prime Minister said at Bendigo that the Government would not, and could not, continue to govern unless they secured the power they sought. Every member of the Government gave practically the same pledge, and when, notwithstanding that pledge, I see them still in office, they must pardon me if I refuse to accept their word. </para>
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        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3324</page.no>
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            <para>- Then why plead for yet another &#34; word.&#34; </para>
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        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3324</page.no>
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            <para>- I am pleading to the Minister to make a statement that will satisfy the minds of those who do not know the Government as I know them. </para>
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        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3324</page.no>
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            <para>- And if it is given the honorable senator will go about the country trying to cause them to be dissatisfied. </para>
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          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3324</page.no>
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            <para>- I am dissatisfied and grievously disappointed. I have put before the Senate a quotation showing that a high regard for honour on the part of British statesmen has cost Britain thousands of lives, and an expenditure of many millions of money in this war. They knew what the keeping of their promise to Belgium would mean; but they kept it, and  Avhen  I am confronted with a Government who give us a pledge to-day and break it to-morrow, I feel constrained to speak with warmth and feeling, in the hope that there may be at least one member of their party who will differ from the view they take of the duty of the public men of Australia. </para>
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        </continue>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>3325</page.no>
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            <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
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          <para>.- The motion before the Chair is for the first reading of a Bill to grant and apply out of the Consolidated Revenue a sum not exceeding &#163;2,284,037 for the services of the present financial year; but although I listened very attentively to the speech just concluded by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Gardiner,</inline> I certainly failed to hear him make any reference to it. While he expressed the hope that there would be greater cooperation and unanimity on the part of political parties in this Parliament in carrying on the government of Australia during the present war, I can conceive of no utterance more calculated than was his speech to widen the breach, or, at all events, to perpetuate the political bitterness existing between political parties today. </para>
        </talk.start>
        <para>I may be permitted very briefly to refer to one or two of the statements made by the honorable senator. In the first place, he declared - and the statement seemed to cause him the greatest anxiety - that there were not in Australia more than 60,000 eligible single men who could be called up should a system of compulsion be adopted. As a matter ofprinciple that point is not of very great importance to the- main question. If there were only 60,000 eligible single men who could be called up under the compulsory system&#39;, then only60,000 would be called up. I should be very sorry to learn, however, that Australia&#39;s manpower did not: exceed that number. I doubt very much the honorable senator&#39;s figures. I prefer to take those advanced by the Government Statistician, although he does not vouch for their absolute accuracy.. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3325</page.no>
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            <para>- There cannot be very much wrong with the census figures.. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3325</page.no>
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            <para>- No. They are correct. We have to remember, however, that some time has elapsed since the census enumeration. The figures now presented by the Government Statistician in regard to this question of eligibles are more or less approximate and of a guesswork character ;. but he should bein a better position to make an accurate guess -if I may use that expression - than any honorable&#39; senator, not excepting <inline font-weight="bold">Senator</inline></para>
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        </continue>
        <para class="block">Gardiner. His estimate, given to the public only a few months ago- </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3325</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">O&#39;KEEFE, David</name>
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            <para>- The Government Statistician said, in May last, that there were then 145,000 eligible men. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3325</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
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            <para>- After deducting 50 per cent, in respect of ineligibles. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3325</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">O&#39;KEEFE, David</name>
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            </talker>
            <para>- No, no ! </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3325</page.no>
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            <para>- I assure the honorable senator that my statement is correct. The Statistician estimated that the number of men between the ages of twenty and forty-five years was 370,000. He then proceeded to eliminate from that total those of enemy origin, as well as the children of persons of enemy origin. From the result so obtained he deducted 50 per cent, as representing those who might possibly be ineligible, and showed that there were 145,000 or 147,000 eligibles between the ages of twenty and forty-five years. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3325</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">O&#39;KEEFE, David</name>
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            <para>- The honorable senator is not allowing any deduction in respect of exemptions. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3325</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
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            <para>- Nor did <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Gardiner.</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3325</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- I mentioned that <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> had promised certain exemptions. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3325</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
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            <para>- I recognise that. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3325</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
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            <para>- Andwe had to provide for filling vacancies in trades with men who, although unfit for military service, were quite fit to follow ordinary occupations. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3325</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
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            <para>- Quite so. The exemptions to which <inline font-weight="bold">Senator O&#39;Keefe</inline> has referred were not provided for in the estimate made by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Gardiner</inline> that we had not. in Australia more than 60,000 eligibles who could have been called up under compulsion. The Statistician shows that after allowing a deduction of 50 per cent, for ineligibles between the ages of twenty and forty-five years there are over 145.000, and I prefer to take his figures rather than mere guess-work computations made by honorable senators or any one else. Be that as it may, even if there are only 60,000 eligibles, there is no reason why they should not bear their responsibilities for the defence of: those privileges which they enjoy equally with the men who are now fighting for their country, many of them married and a considerable number of therm  under twenty years of age. </para>
          </talk.start>
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        <para>The honorable senator, apparently in a bad temper, hurled against me and other honorable senators the charge of slandering Australia. My reply is that Australia has sent to the Front a wonderfully large number of men who have done marvellously well. At! the same time the men who will not go - those who shirk their responsibility and those who encourage them to shirk it - are not entitled to take any credit for the good and great deeds done by the men who fought on Gallipoli and who have fought in Flanders and other places. In one district in an electorate in Tasmania, which* I represented for some years, there were five families, each of which sent three sons, making fifteen  recruits  in all, while of another family of eight sons not one joined the Forces. Is there any credit due to that family of eight boys for the great deeds done by the men who went from the district of Hastings? </para>
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            <para>- They were able to say, &#34; Australia has done its share.&#34; </para>
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            <para>- Did. not Hastings show7 a majority for &#34; No &#34; ? </para>
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            <para>- Of course it did-, under the leadership of the honorable senator. I cannot understand how it is that some men and women who have their own boys at the Front were most bitter against compulsory service. </para>
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            <para>- The boys in the trenches were. </para>
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            <para>- Some of them were, and I admire their attitude, because it was absolutely unselfish, but I fail to recognise the logic of fathers, mothers, sisters, and  brothers of the men who are laying down their lives for the freedom of Australia in voting against a proposition to insure reinforcements. At present I shall not refer further to the speech of the honorable senator opposite. I was .strongly opposed to a referendum on the question of compulsory military service, and I declined any responsibility for the one taken on the 28th October, 1916. When I learnt that there was a possibility of trouble in this connexion, I visited Melbourne, and, in conversation with honorable senators and members who were then my colleagues - as I hope they will be again - I strongly advised them to take the responsibility devolving on them as statesmen, and, if they were convinced that it was a proper thing for Australia to send more men, to put an Act through Parliament. </para>
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            <para>- They had as much right to take their own course as you had to take yours. </para>
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            <para>- I admit that, in a measure, they had, but, in another sense they had not, because they were pledged by the manifesto which was published in the newspapers of Australia on the 26th August, 1914. That manifesto set forth that if the party to- which they belonged were returned to power, it would, recognising that the very existence of Australia was bound up in the existence of the Old Country, do anything and everything under all circumstances to stand behind the Imperial Government in this war. That manifesto, on which the Fisher Government and honorable senators opposite were returned in September, 1914, went further, and declared that the  party  accepted the annunciation by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Fisher,</inline> in his policy speech, that in this war Australia was behind the Mother Country to the &#34; last man and the last shilling.&#34; </para>
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              <page.no>3326</page.no>
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            <para>- Good&#39; old phrase! we have heard it a good many times. </para>
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            <para>- I know, and i.t is a good phrase. </para>
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            <para>- We have not heard much of -the &#34;last shilling&#34; lately. </para>
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              <page.no>3326</page.no>
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            <para>- The honorable senator is quite aware of what has been done in regard to the &#34;last shilling,&#34; &#39; and&#39; he knows that it will have to be collected for many years to come after the war is over. It is important to have men now in order to end the war as soon .as possible, but the collection of the &#34; last shilling &#34; must go on, at any rate, during the life of this generation to meet our war obligations. </para>
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        <para>I strongly advised the members of the then Labour party to carry out their pledge. I&#39; took an opportunity to go direct from Hobart to Sydney to meet the Prime Minister on his return from the Old Country, in order to get from him, at first hand, his impressions regarding the progress of the war, and the need for further effort on the part of Australia. I have always been convinced that, excepting, perhaps, Canada, the Dominions, and particularly Australia and New Zealand, will not have done their share until they have done all that is humanly possible, and the war is over. Everything that we possess, and all the great potentialities of the future, depend on our success in the war. Canada is in rather a different position, because she has at her back the great American nation, and there is not much danger of German power ever entering the Dominion. Apart altogether from the duty which Australia owes to the Mother Country and to the Empire, she has the great incentive of absolute self-preservation. Therefore, I repeat that Australia will never be able to fully do her partuntil she has done all that is absolutely possible- </para>
        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3327</page.no>
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            <para>- You have become a great patriot lately ! </para>
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              <page.no>3327</page.no>
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            <para>- I was always a patriot. </para>
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              <page.no>3327</page.no>
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            <para>- You and I were bits of rebels during the Boer war. </para>
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              <page.no>3327</page.no>
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            <para>- I have been waiting for some remark of that kind from the honorable senator. I admit that I was strongly opposed to the Boer war. </para>
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              <page.no>3327</page.no>
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            <para>- So was I. </para>
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              <page.no>3327</page.no>
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            <para>- I believe you were, and I know that I was hooted and howled at all over the place. The position I then took up was that the war was unjust and unreasonable, and that Great Britain had been drawn into it by the German Jews of London, who were vitally interested in the Transvaal gold-mines. I held that Australia - then on the eve of her birth as a Federated nation - ought not to come into existence under the cloud of war, and stained by unnecessary bloodshed. All the arguments I then used have been proved correct, and their greatest justification is in the fact that, immediately Great Britain conquered the South African Republics, she handed them back self-government; and that to-day England&#39;s then greatest enemy - General Botha - is banishing Britain&#39;s enemies from the shores of Africa. And another  man who was a formidable antagonist in that war, General the Right Honorable J. C. Smuts, is a member of the British War Council. However, all this is apart from the question. I merely mention these facts to show that my attitude on that occasion has since been justified. </para>
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        </continue>
        <para>In regard to the success of the voluntary system, whilst the supply of willing men was unexhausted, voluntarism was a great success. I constituted the War Council in Tasmania, and have been a member of it ever since its inception. I knew exactly what was being done in that State, and it is a remarkable thing that the experience of one State in these matters is invariably the reflex of the experiences of other States. At the beginning of the war there was no difficulty at all in getting recruits. Men enlisted by the hundred. In the first four months of this war 52,000 men enlisted, whilst during the four months ended the 31st October last there were only 14,000 enlistments. </para>
        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3327</page.no>
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            <para>- The conscription fight was in progress. </para>
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              <page.no>3327</page.no>
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            <para>- The conscription fight sent a number of men into the camps who otherwise would not have gone. I met many men who signified their intention of enlisting rather than run the risk of being conscripted. I take no responsibility for the referendum. I would not have agreed to refer such a question to the electors, because I realize that it is an issue upon which we cannot get a true expression of the people&#39;s opinion. There are so many interests involved, and there is so much likelihood of the electors giving a false vote, if I may use that expression, that it is absolutely impossible to get a true sense of the people on such a question. For instance, we have in the community those people who are opposed to compulsion of any kind. They do not believe in men being forced to- go to the war, neither do they believe in heavy taxation. Then there are the men who have been deliberately misled by the speakers on the negative side. The electors were told that if they voted &#34; Yes &#34; they would fasten Prussian conscription on Australia for all time. The men who made that statement knew it to be untrue, but the fear of such a consequence would frighten many a man. He would say, &#34; I would sooner take the risk of Australia going down, even now, than I would place upon my sons and my sons&#39; sons the yoke of military conscription.&#34; </para>
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        </continue>
        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3327</page.no>
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            <para>- Who made that statement ? </para>
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        </interjection>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3327</page.no>
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            <para>- I have not read any of the honorable senator&#39;s speeches, therefore I do not know wnether or not the statement was made by him; but I know that few speeches were delivered in Tasmania in which the people were not told that if they voted &#34;Yes&#34; and conscription were introduced, they would have the yoke around their necks for all time. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3328</page.no>
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            <para>- The statement was made everywhere. </para>
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        </interjection>
        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3328</page.no>
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            <para>- Cannot the honorable senator mention the name of one  speaker  who made such an idiotic statement ? </para>
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              <page.no>3328</page.no>
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            <para>- It is rather refreshing., to know that in the opinion of <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Long</inline> such a statement is idiotic. </para>
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              <page.no>3328</page.no>
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            <para>- Absolutely, and it could come only from one of the honorable senator&#39;s supporters. </para>
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              <page.no>3328</page.no>
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            <para>- I do. not wish to do anybody an injustice. I cannot recollect at this moment the name of any speaker who made use of that statement, but I know it. appeared in. the Hobart <inline font-style="italic">Daily Post</inline> repeatedly. A number of other statements were made by speakers on. the. negative side which undoubtedly had the effect of misleading the electors. </para>
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              <page.no>3328</page.no>
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            <para>- Every intelligent Australian knows; that conscription is fastened round his neck for all time under, the present Defence Act. </para>
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              <page.no>3328</page.no>
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            <para>- Quite so Another statement made during the campaign was that conscription was required, nat to get men for: active service, butf or: industrial purposes. That statement was; made throughout the length and breadth of Australia, particularly amongst unionists, and it influenced a good numv bes of people. The honorable senatorknows that there exists power of industrial conscription under the Defence Act. if it; were required. Of. course,it is not required, and it. was not the intention: of the Government, or anybody else, to introduce such a system. There was also the selfish man who does notwish to make any sacrifice, even to the extent of. allowing; a. favorite employee to leave his service and go to the. Front. There was the man who does not want to pay the additional taxation which will be necessary if Australia does her fair part in the war. The man who had a son, brother or nephew that might have to go if conscription were carried voted &#34; No.&#34; Then there was the young man generally known as the &#34; cold-footer,&#34; the eligible who did not want to go. He and all his- relatives, sisters, cousins, and aunts were &#34; No&#34; voters. Then, there was. another section; I know that the </para>
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        <para class="block">Prime Minister occasionally says many hard things under a tremendous mental strain, but I do not think that he ever accused the Official Labour party of. being pro-German or of being disloyal. However, I say deliberately, that all the proGermans and the disloyal people in Australia voted &#34;No&#34; with the Official Labour party. Of course, the party could not help it. </para>
        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3328</page.no>
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            <para>- If <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Tudor</inline> were not their leader, at any rate they were his followers. </para>
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        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3328</page.no>
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            <para>- The Prime Minister tried to make the public believe that we were hand-in-glove with them. </para>
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              <page.no>3328</page.no>
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            <para>- I hardly think the Prime Minister went so far as that, but it is a certainty that all that class of people voted &#34; No &#34;-the pro-Germans and the Sinn Feiners, who cannot get out of their minds the injuries which Ireland, suffered at the hands of England&#39; in the past,and for revenge on England would sacrificeAustralia. I do not. think that they were very numerous, seeing that the country: from which they came is so well represented at the Front, but. what there were of them voted &#34;No.&#34; </para>
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            <para>- What would be. the percentage? </para>
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            <para>- I cannot say, but the selfish people formed a very big percentage. If the honorable member thinks that those who voted &#34; No &#34; will vote for him at an election he was never under a greater misapprehension. </para>
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            <para>- Do. not forget that there were many who voted. &#34;&#39;Yes &#34; who would not vote for the honorable senator; </para>
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              <page.no>3328</page.no>
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            <para>- That is so. Beyond the people I have mentioned there is also the malcontent, who is against all parties : no matter who is in power he is opposed, to constituted authority. On this occasion constituted authority asked the people to vote &#34; Yes,&#34; and accordingly he voted &#34;No.&#34; </para>
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        <para>Another section which counted very effectively Icomprises the soldiers who did not agree to assistance being sent to them by means of compulsion. Many soldiers argued that as they had sufficient love for Australia to offer their lives for her, they would not accept assistance from men who had to be compelled to go to the Front. They failed to recognise that Australia was the only important section of the Allies that did not have conscription;. and that they were fighting side by side withconscripts iron Great Britain, France, Belgium, Canada, and New Zealand. They failed to recognise that practically all the men who were fighting for the continuance of the world&#39;s freedom were conscripts. There was another section among the men on active service comprising those who, having gone through certain hardships, felt that it would be unfair to force others to undergo the same. They were a self-sacrificing class of men who did not complain of their own lot, and although they recognised that it was important that more men should go to assist them, they would not ask for them to be compelled to go. No man recorded an affirmative vote for the pleasure of doing it. I venture to say that not one person put a cross opposite the word &#34; Yes &#34; with any pleasure. </para>
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              <page.no>3329</page.no>
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            <para>- Thehonorable senator is joking now. </para>
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              <page.no>3329</page.no>
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            <para>- Ifthe honorable senator can imagine that any person would find pleasure in any of the circumstances connected with the war, his opinion of humanitydiffers from mine. </para>
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        <para class="italic">
          <inline font-style="italic">Sitting suspended from 6.30 to 8 p.m.</inline>
        </para>
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              <page.no>3329</page.no>
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            <para>- I was pointing out that it is impossible by a referendum to obtain the real opinion of the people on such a question as compulsory reinforcements for the defence of the country. I have referred to a number of conflicting interests which prompted the electors to vote &#34;No,&#34; while on the other hand there are not more than two reasons why on such a question an elector should vote &#34;Yes.&#34; One reason is love of country and patriotism, and the fear of the loss of the freedom of the country, and the other, which may be associated with the first, consideration for a father, son, or friend, who might be serving at the Front. No man or woman, for the mere pleasure of doing so, voted &#34; Yes &#34; at the referendum to compel men to serve their country. Every man and every woman who voted &#34; Yes &#34; realized that it was an unpleasant duty to the State to do so. The odds and the interests on the &#34; No &#34; side were so great that the appeal was entirely one-sided, and it was thus impossible to get a fair expression of the opinion of the jpeople on such a question by the method adopted. The principle of the referendum is entirely inapplicable to such a question. War is not democratic. It is the very antithesis of  all  that is democratic. If all the nations of the world were Democracies we might take siteps to prevent war and avoid that state of madness into which the worldis at present thrown, and prevent the horrible outrages that are being perpetrated in the present struggle. But while one country is ruled by an autocracy or a bureaucracy, those nations who desire to enjoy the privileges and advantages of Democracy must themselves institute an autocracy in order to protecttheir democratic privileges and advantages. A referendum is qf the very essence of Democracy - rule by the people. Even if it were practical to obtain a sound judgment from the people on such a question as reinforcements by means of a referendum the very necessity to reveal information which should not be allowed to reach the enemy in order to enable the people to understand the true position is of itself an important reason why the question of war should never be decided by a plebiscite. Giving such information to the electors it is impossible to avoid giving it to the enemy. One question, for instance, which had to be dealt with during the last referendum campaign was the number of Australian troops in England. When dealing with millions of men the number Australia has supplied for the conduct of the war is comparatively insignificant, but an important principle was still involved. Those opposed to an affirmative vote at the referendum, in order to induce people to vote &#34; No,&#34; repeatedly stated that there were in England at least 121,000 Australians who might be used as reinforcements. That statement had to be met, and it was necessary to give official figures to show that the actual number of Australians in England was only 71,000, and that that number included post-office officials, hospital attendants, orderlies, and all the rest. </para>
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        <para>SenatorBakhap. - And wounded men being patched up to be returned to Australia. </para>
        <continue>
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              <page.no>3329</page.no>
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            <para>- That is so. It had to be explained that the whole of the fighting men available for reinforcements in the course of training, or already trained in England, numbered only 20,000. This information coming from Australia was, perhaps, of very small importance to the enemy, but the principle involved was the same, whether the number was 20,000 or 500,000.. This illustrates the fact that the submission of a question like that which was the subject of the referendum to a popular vote is condemned to failure from the start. </para>
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        <para>I wish to advance a little further in dealing with the progress of the National party, and I shall deal briefly with the crisis through which the Government have just passed. The Leader of the Official Labour party in the Senate <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Gardiner)</inline> has dealt with the pledge given by the Government at the beginning of the last referendum. I have no sympathy with that pledge. I did not agree with it. It was a foolish pledge, or a foolish threat to make. It was a negation of the principle of the referendum, and was something which in the interests of Australia could not be carried out. </para>
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              <page.no>3330</page.no>
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            <para>- As one who was at one time Premier of a State, if you made a pledge in similar terms, would you in the circumstances have resigned ? </para>
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            <para>- I would never have given such a pledge in the circumstances. </para>
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            <para>- If the honorable senator had given such a pledge, would he in the circumstances have continued to govern the country ? </para>
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            <para>- If <inline font-weight="bold">Senator O&#39;Keefe&#39;s</inline> aunt had whiskers, would she be his uncle? </para>
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              <page.no>3330</page.no>
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            <para>- That is not a very enlightening reply. </para>
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            <para>- The honorable senator&#39;s question was not a very sensible one. </para>
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              <page.no>3330</page.no>
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            <para>- <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Earle</inline> knows that if he had given such a pledge, he would have kept his word. </para>
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              <page.no>3330</page.no>
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            <para>- I say that I would never have given such a pledge. It was a pledge or a threat that if the question referred to the popular vote was not carried, in a manner acceptable to the Government they would throw Australia absolutely into the hands of the party opposite. </para>
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              <page.no>3330</page.no>
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            <para>- You could not. throw it into better hands. </para>
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              <page.no>3330</page.no>
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            <para>- At one time we could not, but at present wecould not throw it into worse. I have not lost hope yet for honorable senators opposite. I believe that a day will come when they will assert their authority, and refuse to obey instructions given to them by gentlemen outside, estimable as they are, and right enough in their own way, but who have not the responsibility that honorable senators have. By refusing those instructions they will regain the old prestige which they enjoyed during the early days of the Labour movement, and return to carry out the very excellent work which they assisted to initiate and advance to a certain stage in this nation. </para>
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              <page.no>3330</page.no>
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            <para>- You know there is no difference between the machinery now and the machinery when you were a member of the party. </para>
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              <page.no>3330</page.no>
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            <para>- There is a vital difference. When a member of the Labour party I was pledged to a specific policy laid before the people, and no man dared to dictate to me on any question outside that policy. </para>
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            <para>- Hear, hear! </para>
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              <page.no>3330</page.no>
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            <para>- Then why does the honorable senator approve of members of that party expelling me from a position because I took a certain attitude which they said I had a right to take on a question which they all agreed was not part of that pledge or policy? </para>
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              <page.no>3330</page.no>
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            <para>- Is that statement quite correct? Were you expelled or did you write an offensive letter first? </para>
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              <page.no>3330</page.no>
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            <para>- I was expelled from the position of leader of the party after occupying it for ten years. </para>
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              <page.no>3330</page.no>
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            <para>- Were you not defeated for it? </para>
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              <page.no>3330</page.no>
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            <para>- No. When I last contested the position of leader of that party there were only fifteen members in it, and I was given twelve votes, while the present occupant of the position gained three. That was before I took part in a referendum to the people on a question where both sides were supposed to have absolute freedom to express their views and induce the people to accept them. I laid the question before my party before I took action. I said, &#34; I am going to take a certain course, and hope you will all do the same, but if you do not agree with me you are absolutely free to adopt the course which your conscience dictates to you is right.&#34; They all agreed that that was the proper stand to take. I took that course, and was rejected from the position aften ten years of leadership. They did this, not of their own volition, but pursuant to instructions which they received from outside. The correspondence on that matter is now on the file. While the party submits to that kind of thine, I say with regret that the&#39; government of this nation is not safe in their hands, and it is not desirable to place it there. In the course of his speech. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Gardiner</inline> referred to the industrial rebellion that took place some little time ago. I could not imagine anything more inconsistent with the fact than his statement that the National party, to which I belong, forced   the strike upon the workers. I remember the honorable senator, with his usual force and eloquence, dealing with that question in the Senate for a considerable time, and asking the Commonwealth Government to take steps to bring the strike to an end. He spoke for about half-an-hour on one phase of the matter, dealing with what he called card No. 6,  pointing  out its evils, and tell-, ing us that was the only card he could get as a sample. </para>
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              <page.no>3331</page.no>
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            <para>- The only one I happened to have with me. </para>
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            <para>- The honorable senator laid particular emphasis on &#39; the fact that one of the instructions to the sub-foremen in that card was to send in a report as to whether there were any men in his gang who were  unsatisfactory </para>
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              <page.no>3331</page.no>
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            <para>- Secret reports. </para>
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              <page.no>3331</page.no>
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            <para>- Everybody who knows anything about the supervision of work performed by men knows that such a report must come in to the head of a Department. Does not the honorable senator realize that it is a greater protection to the men themselves if the subforeman is compelled to put his report concerning his men in writing than if he has merely to go to the office and deliver it verbally? Every person in charge of men has: to report to his superior from time to time whether his gang is satisfactory or not. But the comedy of the whole  propositon  lay in the fact that after the honorable senator had spoken for halfanhour on this particular card, he had to acknowledge that no such card was in existence. </para>
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              <page.no>3331</page.no>
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            <para>- I deny that ever I made such an acknowledgment, and ask the honorable senator to accept my denial. I produced the card here. . </para>
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              <page.no>3331</page.no>
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            <para>- I suppose I have to accept the honorable senator&#39;s denial, but I will try to refresh his memory. I think it was myself who interjected, when the honorable senator had nearly completed his references to the card, that there was no such card in existence, that I had the three cards that were used, and the honorable senator answered, &#34; There would have been if it had not been for the action of the men.&#34; Does not the honorable senator remember that incident? He remembers it right enough. </para>
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              <page.no>3331</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- That beats me for twisting. I cannot follow the honorable senator through there. The card was not only printed, but was in use, and the honorable senator knows it was in use. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3331</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
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            <para>- I do not know: </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3331</page.no>
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            <para>- I produced it here, and stated it was published in the <inline font-style="italic">Sydney  Morning Herald.</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3331</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- It w,as not printed <inline font-style="italic">in&#39; the&#39; Sydney Morning Herald.</inline> I have  copies of the three cards that were printed in the <inline font-style="italic">Herald,</inline> and I challenge any honorable senator to say that there is in them anything to which any man prepared to do a reasonable day&#39;s work could object. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3331</page.no>
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            <para>- They refrained from publishing the facts that caused the strike. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3331</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- That was the ostensible cause of the strike, but I have no doubt that the honorable senator knows what caused the trouble. It was not the cards, but the success of the National party on 5th May. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3331</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Gardiner</name>
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            <para>- The National party caused the strike after their success. There is no doubt of that. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3331</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- No. The strike was a political rebellion against the success of the National party, and no word was uttered on the other side of the Senate to point out to the men the foolishness of their action. No effort was made to induce them to. accept that legal process, for which the Labour party hitherto had always fought, to bring about industrial peace. Nothing was said to impress upon the men the seriousness of their action in bringing about a cessation of work while this country was at war with an outside enemy. Bad as any strike might be at any time, it is infinitely worse during war, especially when reasonable facilities are provided for the redress of grievances by appealing to lawful tribunals. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3331</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">BARNES, John</name>
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            <para>- That is what the Government refused to the men. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3331</page.no>
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            <para>- That might be true so far as the card system was concerned, but surely the honorable senator realizes that there must be some system of computing the amount of labour expended upon a particular article in order to allocate its cost? , </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3332</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Gardiner</name>
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            <para>- The honorable senator said just nowthat there was no sixth card produced. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <para>SenatorEARLE. - Yes, I did. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3332</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- Well, this is what I will , do. I will undertake to produce the card and the men who were asked to work under it, and if I cannot I will resign my seat and stay out of Parliament, provided the honorable senator will do the same if I do produce the card. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3332</page.no>
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            <para>- If I accepted the challenge, and thehonorable senator had to resign his seat, that might be a blessing for the people of New South Wales ;but if, on. the other hand,I lost and had to resign any seat, the people of Tasmania would be the sufferers.I am not in a mood to accept the challenge just now. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3332</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- Well, I issue the challenge in all earnestness. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3332</page.no>
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            <para>- I have an official statement that the cards which I have in my possession are copies of the cards that were in force in theGovernment workshops, and I have a clear recollection that when I interjected while the Leader of the Opposition was speaking, he said that the card referred to would have been in force had the men submitted to it. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3332</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
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            <para>- The men were out, so nothing was in force just at that time. My point is that the card was not only prepared, but was issued to the men. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3332</page.no>
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            <para>- I think the Leader of the Opposition is under a misapprehension. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3332</page.no>
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            <para>- Well, if I am, you have a good chance to get rid of me from the Senate, for, unlike the Nationalists, I will keep my pledge. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3332</page.no>
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            <para>- I have no desire to get rid of the honorable senator. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para>In my opinion, it would be foolish to betray the electors of this country by placing the government in the hands of the Official Labour party. Concerning the pledge given by the Prime Minister, I want to make it clear that I did not approve of it in any way, and I am satisfied that the interests of Australia would not be protected if that pledge were carried out in thespirit. Nor would it be honoured by the selection from the National party, other than the present Ministers, of aGovernment to carry on the affairs of this country. That pledge could only behonoured by handing over the government to the Tudor party. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3332</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">LONG, James</name>
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            <para>- What areflection on the other members of your party. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <para>SenatorEARLE. - No, it is not. There are sufficientmembers in the National party to form half-a-dozen Governments,but if that course had been taken the pledge would not have been honoured any more thanby the resignation of the late Government and therecommissioning of the Prime Minister to form a new Government consisting of the same members. </para>
        <para>Another grievance I have with members of the Official Labour party is that, while they profess to believe in the voluntary system of recruiting, there has not yet been any whole-hearted effort on their part to co-operate with the National party in giving effect to that system. When the last referendum was decided upon, and a special effort was made in my own State to press forward the voluntary system of recruiting, <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Ready,</inline> a pronounced &#34; No &#34; voter, accepted the position of  Chairman  of the Recruiting Council ofTasmania, and, from that hour, dated his downfall. Members of the Official Labour party, either in State or Federal politics, rendered practically no assistance. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3332</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">O&#39;KEEFE, David</name>
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            </talker>
            <para>- Who was <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Ready&#39;s</inline> bitterestopponent? Was it not the Hobart <inline font-style="italic">Mercury ?</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3332</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- That is nothing. I was one of his greatest friends, and strongly urged the Director of Recruiting to appoint him, because I realized thatthe members of the National party (had done all they could in the interests of voluntary recruiting, and had advised the adoption of the compulsorysystem. Then, surely, the proper thing, if they were sincere, was for those who had advised the people to vote against conscription to become prominent in advo- cating the voluntary system. Under these circumstances, honorable senators opposite will excuse me if I say that it isa tax on my credulity to ask me to believe that they are anxious to recruit men for the reinforcement of those at the Front. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para>I wish, now, to quote shortly from a pamphlet of which, probably, every honorable senator has received a copy. It was written by a member of the British Labourparty, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. J.</inline> A. Seddon, who has occupiedvery important positions in the industrialorganizations of </para>
        <para class="block">Great Britain, and expresses himself on this war in a &#39;manner which it would be  greatly  to the credit of Australian Labour men to emulate. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Seddon</inline> says - </para>
        <quote>
          <para>Before tlie outbreak of the great war, organized British labour was wholly pacifist. We were ^opposed to militarism, in every shape amc! form. We fought the increase of armaments.  We  did our best to allay .anything which might be likely te promote the growth of the fighting spirit among our people. We looked to see the spirit of international friendship spread till all nations wore \united in world peace. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">Those are splendid sentiments - they do credit to a democratic leader. He continues - </para>
        <quote>
          <para>This war was Germany&#39;s work, and Germany&#39;s purpose was to secure world domination. British  labour  was opposed to war. But British  labour  was, and is, infinitely more opposed to the establishment of a  system  that would place the nations at the mercy of Prussian bureaucracy. Better many years .of war than this. We realized that Prussianism and freedom cannot exist side by side. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">Again - </para>
        <quote>
          <para>What of the conscientious objectors? What of the people in England who refuse to fight? There are not many of them, but there are a few. We trade unionists regard the conscientious objectors as national blacklegs. They accept the protection provided by the nation, and the security established by our fighting men. They  receive  the benefits of .our national organization, &#39;and are trying to escape from paying their fair .dues. Trade unions, get rid of &#34;blacklegs. I would clear these national blacklegs out of the land. </para>
          <para>The course of the war is bringing about farreaching changes in British 3abour, changes the full effects of which are, as yet, scarcely realized. All classes have commingled in the trendies, and have, perhaps, learned -to understand one. another better. The mcn of the overseas forces, who have come  among  us an their hundred thousands, have helped the British -worker to realize the Empire. Men horn in Toronto and Melbourne have fought  side  by side with men born in Liverpool and Sheffield. </para>
          <para>The progress of the war, and my experiences during a visit to France, helped to convince me that, until international disarmament comes and the character of the German ls transformed, we must guard ourselves by national service against future  dangers.  The so-called voluntary system cost us dearly. Witness the destruction of so many of our first Expeditionary Force in France because we had not the trained men to send to their support. . . . </para>
          <para>Terrible as .this war has been, and heavy as is its cost, I am yet profoundly convinced that it is  bringing  us new vision, new hopes, .-new life. A common sorrow over our lost ones is helping to &#34;break down many old barriers. The sense of a common fellowship is uniting us. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">I wish I could hear honorable senators opposite giving utterance to sentiments of that kind. It would redound to the credit of the leaders of Labour in Australia were they to take up the same attitude, realizing that it is absolutely imperative that, if we are to be a united people in a great &#39;Democracy, forming part of the Empire, every one of us &#34;must do his utmost to cripple for all time the Prussian bureaucracy, -which depends upon force of arms for world power. </para>
        <para>There is one other phase of the matter with which I wish .to deal to-night, and that is .the .clamour which has been raised against the Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Hughes)</inline> since the defeat of the .referendum. It has sprung from two sources. One reason .for it is that his .political enemies in both parties see in the failure of .the referendum merely a political opportunity, to be seized .at the expense of honour and country. The .other reason for it is the universal tendency of Democracies to attribute their failures to the acts -of individuals. History furnishes many notable cases in which Democracies have turned upon their leaders even more bitterly than many are now turning against <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes.</inline> We must regard this tendency as one of the regrettable measures&#39; of their incapacity. It is by mother standards that history will surely judge this man. We cannot disregard the fact that many others have &#39;been subjected to exactly the same treatment that <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> is now receiving from his opponents. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3333</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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            <para>- And from his bosom friends, such as Holman, Hall, and Beeby. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
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            <page.no>3333</page.no>
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          <para>- And from some who were <inline font-weight="bold">Ms friends.</inline> Men try to cover their own short-comings by howling down some one whom they believe to be for the time being under  a cloud of public disapproval. We cannot (disregard .Socrates because society passed kim the hemlock. We cannot discount  Christ  because He was crucified on the Cross. We cannot ignore -Caesar because he fell by an assassin&#39;s dagger, or Columbus &#34;because he died in rags. &#34; By their deeds shall ye know them,&#34; and by their deeds posterity has reversed the verdict which the men of their own day so blindly &#39;gave against them. &#39;These are considerations which I wish to bring home. I know that honorable senators opposite are bitterly opposed to the present Prime Minister, and I honestly believe that if they could only get rid of him from the political arena many, if nob all, of their grievances would be&#187; at once adjusted. </para>
        </talk.start>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3334</page.no>
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            <para>- Perish the thought ! He is a very good asset to us. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3334</page.no>
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            <para>- Is that so? The&#34; work that the present Prime Minister has done is, after all, the measure by which he will be judged hereafter. All statesmen are judged by their usefulness and not by the regard or disregard of the people for whom they laboured. Let us remember in the midst of all this bitter denunciation of the &#39;Prime  Minister  - denunciation which in some cases dates back only to the 20th December last and in others&#34; to the date on which he left the Labour party - that the purely political side of his activities is by far the least; that he has, ever since he took office as Prime Minister of this country, undertaken tasks the magnitude and importance of which are beyond the conception of honorable senators opposite. He has organized our greatest industries. He has found markets for our products; ships to carry our products overseas; money to pay the producer, even although the article produced has not yet reached its destination; and storage accommodation for our fasti accumulating stocks. By timely pools and sagacious selling he has saved many of our industries from absolute extinction. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3334</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">LONG, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Long</name>
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            <para>- Does the honorable senator know where last year&#39;s wheat crop is to-day ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3334</page.no>
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            <para>- Ger  tainly  I do. We have no shipping to take it away. Does <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Long</inline> know where the money that it realized is to be found? Ib is in the pockets of the wheat-growers. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3334</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">LONG, James</name>
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            <para>- A very proper place for ib to be. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3334</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
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            <para>- And ib has reached the pockets of the wheat-growers as the result of the action taken by the very man that the honorable senator&#39;s party is condemning. Alongside these achievements the referendum i3 nob so important. v Had the proposals of the Government been carried on 20th December last, its importance to Australia would have been infinitesimal compared with the importance of the steps already taken by the Prime Minister to safeguard industry. Seven thousand men a month mean rauch to the forces in the trenches and to our prestige amongst belligerent nations; but the organization of Australia&#39;s primary industries and the disposal of her primary products are the very essence of our material and economic being. Without the one we can live, however disgraced, but without the other all our activities cease and our limbs fall practically paralyzed. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para>What strange anomaly is this, then, that provokes criticism, in a comparatively unimportant matter, and withholds support in one of vital necessity to the country ? The people of Australia should hold themselves fortunate in having as Prime Minister in this . hour of crisis the one man who cannot only handle business on the colossal scale rendered necessary by the circumstances, but can do so in face of all the many difficulties created by the war. No other man, I believe I am correct in saying, would have so won the confidence of Britain and smoothed the way for profitable business and finance. No other man would have been permitted to buy ships when Britain herself was so hungrily searching for freight. No other man would have so&#39; ably represented us at the conferences ab Home in 1916 - every honorable senator was -loud in his applause of the Prime Minister&#39;s actions on that occasion - and no other man can possibly represent us at the conferences to discuss the terms of peace. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3334</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">LONG, James</name>
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            <para>- Is this man still on earth ? </para>
          </talk.start>
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              <page.no>3334</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">EARLE, John</name>
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            <para>- He is. The wonder is that he Still lives considering what&#39; he has passed through. </para>
          </talk.start>
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              <page.no>3334</page.no>
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            <para>- The honorable senator does not seriously suggest that the Prime Minister, with all his gifts, is the only man who could represent Australia ? </para>
          </talk.start>
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              <page.no>3334</page.no>
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            <para>- As one who has watched closely the work of the Prime Minister which used&#34; to come under my notice, and who has read carefully the comments of several persons who have opportunities of gauging the merits of public men, I say that we have not in Australia to-day another man of the force, character, and power possessed by the present Prime Minister. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3334</page.no>
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            <para>- If the honorable senator does not cease these praises the Prime Minister will be getting swelled head. </para>
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              <page.no>3334</page.no>
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            <para>- No; as I had the pleasure of saying at a banquet which tlie honorable senator and members of his party tendered to the Prime Minister on his return from the Old Country, notwithstanding his remarkable success while there, notwithstanding that every one&#39; who could run after him was running after him, he returned to the Commonwealth the same William Morris Hughes. When this political clamour dies down, and the things that really matter to Australia are reviewed, the people of this country will give full credit to the man who possessed the imagination, energy, and pluck that our grave circumstances demanded in a leader. The whole of our politics as such - the whole of the talking done during the elections and the referendum - have, not contributed one fraction &#39;towards winning the war. Apart from the services rendered by our soldiers, the practical work so far done in this war will be traced, when our history comes to be written, to the administration of the Honorable William Morris Hughes and his Ministers assisting him. </para>
          </talk.start>
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              <page.no>3335</page.no>
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            <para>- This is a long epitaph. </para>
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              <page.no>3335</page.no>
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            <para>- It is no epitaph. When I have anything nice to say about a man, I say it while he is living; I always like to put living flowers into liv- &#39; ing bands. To say nice things after a man is dead may be very gratifying to those who mourn their loss, but is- of no use to the man himself. When honorable senators opposite give me the opportunity, I shall say all the nice things I can about them while they are on this earth, though, perhaps, I would not say as much about them afterwards.- </para>
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        <para>From the outbreak of war, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> has had a controlling hand in the affairs of this country. From September, 1914, to October, 1.915, he was a member of the Cabinet, and in that capacity initiated most of the early legislation connected with the war. From the 27th October 1915, onwards, however, he has held the office of Prime Minister uninterruptedly. During this period, the problems confronting the Government of this country - politically .&#39;ind industrially - have been Unique in history. The war created conditions for the solution of which there was no precedent. Legislators were forced to grapple with each new situation as it arose, depending entirely on their own judgment. In these circumstances, amongst the dangers which menaced Australia, that of choosing an inefficient leader was by no means the least. There have been no less than six Governments in this country since the outbreak of war, and of these <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> formed four. During his terms of office the electors were appealed to- on three occasions - one general election and two referenda. Unfortunately for him, the interest in the political situation has at times been so great that the larger issues have been entirely overlooked by the citizens of the Commonwealth. The breaking up of the old Labour party, the formation of the National party, the attempt to form a Coalition Government of all parties and the refusal of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Tudor,</inline> the exciting election of 5th May, the two vigorous campaigns on the conscription issue, have revealed <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> to the public as a leader of great resource and marvellous energy. Yet the events which served to bring him so prominently before the people have kept them from a realization of the greater national work in which he was continually engaged. The political side of his work, though naturally the most prominent, was by far the least important. </para>
        <para>Australia, during the period of the Prime Minister&#39;s leadership, was faced with a situation so grave that only prompt action on his part saved the country from temporary financial chaos. Freight was practically unobtainable; the usual markets for our foodstuffs, metals, <inline font-style="italic">Sic.,</inline> were entirely dislocated; the producers of this country were faced with a situation for which there seemed to be no solution. And on them the whole structure of Australia&#39;s commercial and industrial welfare rested. How <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> stepped in, organized the primary industries, found new markets, sold the produce, provided the freight, and financed the whole venture, is a story that cannot be told in detail. But if the people of Australia will remember the vast, amount of Australia&#39;s business at Home and overseas that is either overlooked or entirely controlled by the Prime Minister, they will appreciate to some extent the vitally important functions which, apart entirely from, politics, have been attached to that office. </para>
        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3336</page.no>
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            <para>- Had <inline font-weight="bold">Sir John</inline> Forrest not something to do with the finances? </para>
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            <para>- The Prime Minister&#39;s colleagues were all good. I have prepared a defence of .a man who, I consider, is cruelly persecuted by honorable senators belonging to Ite party opposite. I say that, although other. Ministers are probably equally responsible for those things which are objectionable to honorable senators opposite- &#39; </para>
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              <page.no>3336</page.no>
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            <para>- Who is persecuting the Prime Minister? </para>
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              <page.no>3336</page.no>
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            <para>- If the treatment that the Prime Minister has received from his former colleagues - the members of the Official Labour party - since he left them does not amount to a persecution- </para>
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              <page.no>3336</page.no>
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            <para>- He is getting worse f ram his own party. </para>
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              <page.no>3336</page.no>
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            <para>- A section, it may be. In the record of national work done since the Honorable W. M. Hughes first took office will be found the explanation c:f our prosperity to-day, and the guarantee - so far as we have it now - of our future welfare. As a monument to one man&#39;s initiative, capacity, &#39;and energy, it stands unrivalled. in the history of Australia, and possibly the world. </para>
          </talk.start>
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        <para>The organization of our great primary industries with the object of marketing the whole of the &#34;produce was a colossal undertaking.  None  could foresee, and few can yet appreciate, its ramifications. Pools were formed of almost all the producers in the country; the Government made the sale, provided the freight,  obtained  and -distributed the money. At a time when so many of the world&#39;s producers were  unable  to find markets, the Commonwealth Government stepped in and relieved the Australian farmer of .all responsibility and risk. This action saved Australia ; without it our position to-day might well have been worse than that of any .other belligerent. </para>
        <para>But the Government&#39;s first move brought in its train a load of great and grave responsibilities. New conditions arose daily; new problems had to be &#163;   faced.  As the Prime Minister had undertaken to sell .and transport the wheat, on him fell the onus of wheat storage, wheat bagging, and finance. He grappled- firmly with each in turn, and with the aid of the </para>
        <para class="block">States launched a huge silo construction scheme for the storage of 4-9,000,000 bushels of wheat, and costing &#163;2,850,000. The price of cornsacks was fixed to prevent exploitation of the farmer; the Government itself purchased huge quantities of sacks - until the makers refused to supply orders. To keep up the supply of wheat, advances were made on crops unsold, .and guaranteed prices .given for crops unsown. To insure the transport of the huge stocks for which the Government assumed responsiblity, freight was organized, ships purchased, -and a .shipbuilding scheme on an extensive scale launched. </para>
        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3336</page.no>
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            <para>- It has been a long time getting launched.  </para>
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              <page.no>3336</page.no>
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            <para>- We know it is a very difficult undertaking, and even now we are not doing it as we should. We ought to be manufacturing steel plates from our own iron ore. We are not building ships; we are only putting them together. &#39; </para>
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              <page.no>3336</page.no>
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            <para>- We are building ships. </para>
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              <page.no>3336</page.no>
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            <para>- We are starting in a small way to roll steel plates. </para>
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              <page.no>3336</page.no>
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            <para>- A definite order has been given to Australian steel works to roll the plates, and Australian workmen will put them together. </para>
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              <page.no>3336</page.no>
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            <para>- The scheme is evidently further advanced than I was aware. Each new .step has been the logical sequence of some preceding one. </para>
          </talk.start>
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        <para>In other directions, also, fresh difficulties were encountered. To assist the fruitgrowers, the Government secured large orders from Britain and &#39; America for jam and tinned fruits, but the jam manufacturers then clamoured for cheaper sugar and tin plates. The Government solved the sugar problem, and by bringing their influence to bear on the Munitions Departments in England they gradually arranged for supplies of tin plates. This increased local manufacture created a demand for machinery, and again the Government were called upon to plead with the British authorities. Special permits had to be obtained for such, articles, for in many cases their export from Great Britain was absolutely .prohibited... Honorable senators will realize how disastrously private enterprise would have fared., and .how vitally important was the action taken by the Australian Government. The shortage ox&#39; freight led to a shortage&#39; of imports, and, to prevent monopolies and exploitation of the people, tlie Government created a Prices Board. Then, to stimulate local production and encourage industries, it established a Science and Industries Bureau. This Department has not yet begun te bear fruit, but I expect important developments from it in the very near future. </para>
        <para>The dependence of one industry upon another, the relation of one problem, to another, have thus gradually&#39; extended the scope of the Government&#39;s operations until at this moment they practically hold the whole of the industrial welfare of the country in their hands-- On their administration, not only in the political, but also in the purely business sense, rests the welfare of the nation alike with that of the individual. </para>
        <para>Some  idea of the magnitude of the transactions in which the Commonwealth lias been involved since the outbreak of the war, will be gathered from the following tables showing, the moneys that Great Britain has, expended, on our account, and. paid to. us directly im cash.. I am sure these figures will inr  terest  honorable, senators. Iel&#39; -order to, maintain our soldiers at the Front, Great Britain, has. paid &#163;100-, 750,000.. She haspaid for wheat &#163;51,095,000, for wool  &#163;64,000,000,  for butter &#163;4,5.&#39;3Q,000, for jam &#163;3,000,000, for rabbits- &#163;1,500:000 and for metals &#163;19,000,000;, or a total, paid to. us of &#163;2.43,875,000,. much of it for- material  which  has not yet been- delivered. Those figures are by no means exhaustive.-. In, addition-, there were several smaller purchases: by Great. Britain which increase- the total, considerably. For this year alone no less- a. suan than &#163;76,750,000- will be required to- finance the  primary  producers^. </para>
        <para>The total quantity of wheat pooled of. the 1915-16 crop was 162,250y000bushels, and of the 1916-17 crop 138,000,000 bushels. These figures exclude &#34;seed wheat and a certain quantity of feed wheat. The magnitude* of the scheme can be gauged, and thehelplessness of the Australian growers realized, if they had- been, dependent, upon, the usual marketing channels. This beneficent- monopoly may be- described, as&#39; the- greatest co-operative venture in the world. It has given rise to the largest single wheat transaction recorded hi history, namely, the sale of 3r000,000 tons by the Government of Australia to the Imperial Government for a sum of &#163;26,.600,000. A further quantity of. 200,000 tons was sold to France. For the 1915-16 crop, the farmers have already been paid 4s. 6d. per bushel,, less rail freights and agents&#39; handling charges, the total payment amounting to &#163;31,920,000. For the 1916-17 crop, growers have been paid, so far, 3s. &#39;per bushel, involving an amount of &#163;2.0&#39;,262,000. In regard to the 1917-18 crop,, arrangements have now been made for an advance of 3s. per bushel, involving an amount estimated at &#163;15,750,000. Up to date,, no, less a sum than &#163;51,095,000 has been paid for wheat; and as Great Britain paid fon the bulk, of the grain.- before delivery,, the Government were able to: guarantee- the- farmers- 4s.. per bushel for the 1917-18 crop, though the possibility of transporting it overseas, was more- than remote-. The importance of the steps taken- by the Prime Minister in. regard to wheat cam scarcely be- realized.. Had there been no guarantee, or. had Great Britain insisted on delivery before- payment, thousands, of. acres of wheat-bearing la-nd would have gone out of production,, thousands of: farmers would have  been  bankrupt, and millions, of pounds: now circulating in. our midst: would never have entered Australia.. </para>
        <para>The whole of tlie wool clip has been handled&#39; by a central committee in much the. same way as wheat. The task may be. gauged^ by the figures for the 1916-17  clip.  Of this tlie quantity appraised under the Imperial Government&#39;s purchase was, of greasy wool,. 323-, 748,376 lbs.; and scoured, 34,310,645 lbs. Nearly 300,000 separate and independent valuations were made of wool classified into 381 types. Foi- the wool appraised in 1916-17 an. average price of 15.&#163;.d. per lb. was realized,, or a total of &#163;25,340,540; of this&#39; Great Britain paid &#163;24,268,127. Almost the whole of this clip was paid for before delivery, and arrangements have now been made with Great Britain to purchase the 1917-18 clip for approximately &#163;40,000,000.. </para>
        <para>The operations of the butter pool established in: May, 1917, have resulted, not only in a. profit te the producer, but also in a saving to the consumer. The average price ruling in Australia from June to August, in 1917, was ls. 7d. per lb., whereas the average price ruling for the same months, over a series of years. ranged from ls. lOd. to 2s. per lb. Thus the pool assured to the Australian, consumer an adequate supply of butter and a financial saving of some thousands of pounds. The total value of the butter handled by the pool was &#163;8,500,000. In October, 1917, the Prime Minister completed arrangements for the sale to Great Britain of 30,000 tons of butter at 151s. per cwt. f .o.b. for first grade - 90 points - ls, less for each grade downwards, and ls. more for grades above 90 points, the total amount involved being &#163;4,530,000. In addition to the above prices, Australian producers share in any profits made by the sale of the butter in Great Britain. </para>
        <para>The shortage of refrigerated space and tonnage generally threatened the fruit industry in Australia with almost total extinction, but prompt action by the Prime Minister and his Government saved it. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> sold to the British Government 12,000,000 lbs. of assorted jams at 5&#163;d. per lb., and some thousands of tons of dried fruits; also, in order to enable the fruit-growers in Australia to compete in jam-making with other countries, the Government made arrangements by which cheap sugar, at &#163;24 per ton in bond, was made available to- the manufacturers, and assured a supply of tinplate which otherwise would not have been obtainable. In addition to the jam sold to Great Britain, 3S,000,000 lbs. were sold to the United States at 5&#163;d. per lb.- or &#163;1,093,450 over all. Altogether it is estimated that the amount of jam sold since the beginning of the war is valued at &#163;3,000,000. Another order for 100,000 tins of canned fruit was received from Great Britain at prices ranging from 7s. 6d. to 8s. 3d. per dozen, but so far only 35,000 tins have been offered. In addition, 105,000 2-lb. tins of pineapple were placed at 7&#163;d. per lb., and 1,800 cases of evaporated apples at 7 dr. per lb. These three orders alone represent approximately &#163;131,000. Apart from the matter of export, the Government have financed the fruit-growers of Australia in a scheme for marketing their surplus products within the Commonwealth. </para>
        <para>Another industry which some are apt to despise - the rabbit packing and export industry - has also been considered. In February, 1917, the Government sold to the British Government .the whole of the rabbit pack, valued at over &#163;1,000,000, and representing over 30,000,000 rabbits. This deal in itself is remarkable, for it amounts to double the quantity exported in any previous year. A further contract has been made for the 1918 pack, of which Great Britain is prepared to take no less than 20,000 tons. </para>
        <para>The Prime Minister&#39;s action in ridding the metal industry of all German influence, and then organizing the production and sale of metals on a national basis, is known throughout the world.  In November, 1915, he first established the Australian Metal Exchange, and since that date over &#163;19,000,000 worth of metals have been sold to Great Britain alone. In addition to the sale to Great Britain, extensive valuable postwar contracts have &#39; been made with Belgium and France, which will place the metal industry on a basis far sounder than it has ever occupied. The importance of this action cannot be too greatly emphasized, for control of Australian metals is of vital importance not only to the whole Empire, but also to Great Britain&#39;s Allies. </para>
        <para>The Government have also sold the whole of the present season&#39;s exportable surplus of cheese, which may be estimated at 3,000,000 lbs., at 9d. per lb. for first grade. The transaction involves approximately &#163;75,000. </para>
        <para>Most of the problems which confront Australia&#39;s producers arise from the shortage of &#39;shipping. The serious condition of affairs in Australia in this connexion will be seen in the fact that during June of last year not one bushel of wheat was shipped from the Commonwealth, although at the time there was awaiting shipment sufficient cargo to fill fifteen refrigerated vessels and 548 general cargo ships of an average tonnage. The steps taken by the Government to relieve the strain which they foresaw would come are now fairly well known. Freight was organized, vessels chartered, and others taken over from the enemy. Fifteen steamers were purchased in 1915 at a price of &#163;2,062,000, a transaction which is now regarded everywhere as a masterly stroke. &#39;Although under the Government freight scheme, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> kept down freights to the lowest point, these ships have already earned enormous profits, and. could to-day be sold for double the price paid for them. Fourteen new ships are now being built in America for the Commonwealth Government, and will shortly be engaged in transporting Australia&#39;s products overseas. </para>
        <para>In addition, a comprehensive shipbuilding scheme, which I have already alluded to, has been launched in Australia. Experts have been engaged, agreements made with unions concerned, sites chosen, material provided for, and everything done essential to the successful launching of this great industry. The building of ships will commence forthwith. The importance of this scheme, not only from the stand-point of freight, <inline font-style="italic">i.e.,</inline> of tonnage independence, out also in relation to the metal industry, will be readily recognised. </para>
        <para>Had nothing been done bv the Prime Minister but the organization of tonnage at a time when the shipping problem was the most vital to the Empire, he might well have been satisfied with his. work, but taken in conjunction with the organization of primary industries, and the sale of produce to Great Britain, it forms but a link in one of the greatest national achievements of any statesman of the present day. </para>
        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3339</page.no>
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            <para>-  Before the honorable senator leaves the question of freight, he might emphasize the point that the Commonwealth ships are carrying wheat for &#163;6 10s. per ton when the world&#39;s rate is &#163;15 per ton. </para>
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            <para>- I was no&#39;t aware of that, but I do know that freights have been considerably cut down as a result of the employment of the ships purchased by the Prime Minister. </para>
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              <page.no>3339</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">O&#39;KEEFE, David</name>
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            <para>-  Is this a Ministerial statement? </para>
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              <page.no>3339</page.no>
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            <para>- It is not an Opposition statement. I am anxious to deliver this statement, because everywhere I go I am asked by political opponents, &#34; What has the National party done to win the war? What are they doing?&#34; At considerable trouble I have gathered together the facts. I think I have something to lay before honorable senators which should convince them that the present Government have done more to assist in winning the war than they had any previous conception of. </para>
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        <para>The war created problems, not only in our markets abroad, but in the local markets. For example, when the values of rabbit skins rose to a high figure in England and America, it was obvious that trappers here would trap for skins instead of carcasses. This threatened not only to jeopardize the Imperial Government&#39;s rabbit purchase, but also the supplies of fur for local hat manufacturers. The Government promptly stepped in and controlled the rabbit skins trade.Under the scheme, the skins are bought at schedule rates (from 27d. per lb. downwards), and after the hat manufacturers of the Commonwealth have been supplied with their requirements, the balance is sold at auction. This means a saving to Australian hat-makers of not less than &#163;40,000 a year. As the price of hats is also regulated, the benefit goes to the community. I find that the price of hats is now about the same as in normal times, as I bought one a little while ago. The profit to the Government over the year will be about &#163;120,000. </para>
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              <page.no>3339</page.no>
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            <para>- No; &#163;240,000. </para>
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            <para>- The figure supplied to me was &#163;120,000, but the amount mentioned by the Honorary Minister is very much more satisfactory. Although the prices to-day for skins are as high as, or higher than, the prices obtained by trappers in any previous year. The total amount involved under the scheme is &#163;609,000. </para>
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              <page.no>3339</page.no>
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            <para>-  Has not the profit made on rabbits by the Government increased the price of rabbits to local consumers ? </para>
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              <page.no>3339</page.no>
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            <para>- There may be some increase to local consumers due to the supply to the British Government under their contract, but apart from that, there has been no increase. </para>
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              <page.no>3339</page.no>
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            <para>-  The maximum price inAustralia for rabbits is1s. 6d. per pair. </para>
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              <page.no>3339</page.no>
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            <para>-  The Honorary Minister announced to-day that the Government made a tremendous profit out of rabbits. </para>
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        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3339</page.no>
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            <para>-  No; out of rabbit skins. </para>
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              <page.no>3339</page.no>
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            <para>- Leather and hides have also been controlled, and the prices of butter and rabbits for local consumption fixed, in both cases lower than in previous years. </para>
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              <page.no>3340</page.no>
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            <para>- All the same, big prices paid for skins must involve big prices for rabbits. </para>
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              <page.no>3340</page.no>
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            <para>- I should like to remind <inline font-weight="bold">Senator O&#39;Keefe,</inline> who is interested in a hop-growing State, that a Hop Board was appointed, which made recommendations leading to the almost total prohibition of imports, and which will insure the utilization of all the hops grown in the Commonwealth at a satisfactory price to the grower. The value of hops under this scheme is, approximately, &#163;110,000. This matter now depends very largely upon the co-operation of the growers of hops in Victoria and Tasmania. </para>
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        <para>In connexion with sugar, the Government action was the most important and&#39; far-reaching of any whichconcerned the local market. </para>
        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3340</page.no>
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            <para>- I rise to a point of order. For the past fifty minutes <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Earle</inline> has been reading a paper. I want to know whether or not he is reading his speech, and if he is, whether he is not contravening Standing Order 406&#39;,. which provides that no honorable senator shall read his speech? I should like, sir, to have your ruling as to whether the honorable senator is reading his speech as a guide for other members of the Senate. </para>
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        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3340</page.no>
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            <para>- Does the honorable senator wish to censor <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Earle?</inline></para>
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        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3340</page.no>
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            <para>- I am not attempting to do so. I am asking for a ruling from the Chair: </para>
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        <para>The <inline font-weight="bold">DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Shannon).</inline> - If <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Earle</inline> were reading his speech in the course of an ordinary debate he would be distinctly out of order, but the Standing and Sessional Orders having been suspended, I think hecan do practically as he likes.. </para>
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              <page.no>3340</page.no>
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            <para>- Did I understand you, sir, to say &#34; if &#34; the honorable senator were reading his&#39; speech ? Are you in any doubt about it? </para>
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        </interjection>
        <para>The DEPUTY PRESIDENT. - Yes. </para>
        <interjection>
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            <para>- I do not know whether the Standing Orders have been suspended or not. </para>
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        <para>The DEPUTY PRESIDENT.- The Standing and Sessional Orders have been suspended to enable the Bill to pass through all its stages without delay. </para>
        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3340</page.no>
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            <para>- And do you, sir, rule that because the Standing and Sessional Orders have been suspended an honorable senator may do exactly as he likes ? </para>
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        <para>The  DEPUTY PRESIDENT  .  - No ; an honorable senator may not do as he likes. </para>
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              <page.no>3340</page.no>
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            <para>- I understood you, sir, to rule that as the Standing and Sessional Orders have been suspended, <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Earle</inline> may do ashe likes. If that is your ruling we can all please ourselves as to what we do. </para>
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              <page.no>3340</page.no>
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            <para>- The fact that I am quoting from such copious notes- </para>
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        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3340</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">O&#39;KEEFE, David</name>
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            <para>- You have had a pretty good run. </para>
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        <continue>
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              <page.no>3340</page.no>
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            <para>- And I thank honorable senators for it. Honorable senators might: very properly doubt whether I was justified in quoting from the copious notes which I have found it necessary to prepare in order, to assist my memory in presenting a statement that I wanted to make as carefully as possible. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para>In sugar the Government&#39;s action was the most important and far-reaching of any other which concerned the local market. The entire sugar crops of Queensland for 1915-16 and 1916-17 were purchased by the Commonwealth-, and thesugar sold to the consumer at the pre-war price of 3&#189;d. per lb. Before the war the miller received &#163;&#39;13 per ton. Under the Government&#39;s scheme he received &#163;18 for the 1915-16 crop, and &#163;21 for the 1916-17 crop. The value of the sugar handled under the scheme was about &#163;8,000,000 for each crop. </para>
        <para>The amount of national wealth actually handled or controlled by the Prime Minister is enormous. Probably no corporation in this world has ever in its history been responsible for the business management of so much wealth. Yet, despite the fact that the way was beset with countless problems arising from the state of war, this great national business undertaking has resulted in triumphant success. Better profits have been paid to the producer, better wages to the worker, and last, but by no means least, the consumer has been safeguarded to a very great degree from exploitation. The value, ire round numbers, of the commodities sold, handled, or controlled by the Government - which some say is doing nothing to assist in winning the war - during the past year is as follows : - </para>
        <para class="block">
          <graphic href="084332191801222_46_1.jpg" />
        </para>
        <para>It must be remembered that most of the measures introduced by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> for the betterment, if not the actual salvation, of Australia were bitterly opposed by his political enemies.  His  action in leaving the Labour party made him the persona&#93; target of the extremists. Every conceivable method of discounting or hindering his work was resorted to by unprincipled politicians and private citizens. The farmer was told that the Wheat Pool robbed him; the primary producers were everywhere deceived by the grossest lies concerning the actions taken to safeguard them; voluntary recruiting was definitely hindered by sections who merely desired to see the Hughes Administration discredited. Never in the history of Australia have so many vital problems been &#39;faced by a Prime Minister, and never has he been confronted by so much open and concealed hostility. The deepest criticism came from those who most benefited under the scheme; no one seemed to appreciate the absolute futility of proceeding along the usual channels. The success which has attended his truly great efforts is nothing short of remarkable in the light of the difficulties to be overcome. TEat the public of Australia, who have benefited - and all have benefited - by his actions, will appreciate to the full the work done, is more than one can expect, but at least it is reasonable to ask that its value shall not be submerged in criticism over something political, which even had it been successful would have contributed nothing to the economic welfare of Australia. </para>
        <para>The problem of raising recruits was one of the most important that confronted the various Governments led by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes.</inline> On his&#39; accession to office in </para>
        <para class="block">October, 1915, recruiting was falling gradually away. The first excited rush to the colours following the declaration of war had stopped. Recruiting had developed into a slow laborious business, and the Government set about a definite business scheme of organization. Committees were established throughout the Commonwealth, and branches formed wherever it was possible to form them. All the volunteer assistance obtainable was organized, and every device of the volunteer system exploited to the limit. Its possibilities .were exhausted. Never before in the world&#39;s history, possibly, has the system been given such a trial. The demands for men, however, more than overtook the supply, and resulted in the two conscription referenda which the people rejected. Although the Prime Minister was the most earnest disciple of compulsory reinforcements, during his term of office no less than 189,802 enlistments were obtained under the voluntary system. </para>
        <para>We live to-day in what London newspapers term a &#34;Paradise of Plenty.&#34; The phenomenal fact that we do so is due to the foresight, energy, and indomitable perseverance of the one man against whom the barbed darts of venomous criticism, both inside and outside Parliament, have so recently been ruthlessly launched? </para>
        <para>I make this special reference to the Prime Minister - first, because he deserves it; secondly, because he is the one person in whom the venomous hatred of Australia&#39;s enemies is centred. May he be granted health and strength to long guide the destinies of Australia in the manner in which he has been doing for the last few years. I pray that some vein of reasonableness will be tapped from which honorable members on the opposite side may be replenished. Simply because they disagree with him on one subject, they should not blind themselves to the great and good things the Prime Minister has done. They should try to be more equitable in their criticism of a man who has done more for this country and the Empire, as well as for his fellow workers, than can be credited to any other person in any country in the world. </para>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>3341</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>KMP</name.id>
            <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
            <party />
            <role />
            <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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            <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
            <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
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          <para>. - I .find, upon looking over the results of the recent referendum in the </para>
        </talk.start>
        <para class="block">States named, the following were the results : - </para>
        <para class="block">
          <graphic href="084332191801222_47_2.jpg" />
        </para>
        <para class="block">Informal, 54,923. Majority for &#34; No,&#34; 164,895. </para>
        <para class="block">In my references to the&#34; recent referendum, I wish first of all to express my condemnation at the action of the Government in suddenly springing it upon the people at a time when thousands of electors were not on the roll, and without giving them an opportunity to enroll. There was no justification whatever for this course. The Government had decided upon a referendum; but, instead of taking the people into their confidence at the earliest opportunity, they kept the matter secret until it suited them to make an announcement. In fairness to all concerned, ample opportunity of enrolment should have been given to all electors if they were to get a fair and square deal. &#39; </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3342</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">O&#39;KEEFE, David</name>
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            <para>- We were told both here and in another place that Parliament would meet again about the second week of November. </para>
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        </interjection>
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            <page.no>3342</page.no>
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          <para>- I do not know whether the Government intended to irritate the people so as to defeat the referendum or not. It has been a puzzle to rae to know whether the Prime Minister is or is not in favour of conscription, because the other day I saw a report of a motion carried by one branch of the Labour movement thanking him and <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. W.</inline> A. Holman for the action they took in defeating the referendum. It has indeed been a matter of concern to me to know whether these gentlemen are really in favour of conscription.- or whether, secretly, they desired to defeat the question. </para>
        </talk.start>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3342</page.no>
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            <para>- We have had the same doubt about your views on the point. </para>
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              <page.no>3342</page.no>
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            <para>- The Government, by springing the referendum on the people, made it almost impossible for those on the &#34; No &#34; side to place their views before the people of Papua or Norfolk Island. They were entitled to have an opportunity of stating their views before the whole of the electors, including those residing in the Territories, but this was denied them. </para>
          </talk.start>
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        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3342</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">BAKHAP, Thomas</name>
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            <para>- I do not think it waa quite fair, do you ? </para>
          </talk.start>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3342</page.no>
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            <para>- It was absolutely unfair; but perhaps we could hardly expect any other treatment from this Government. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3342</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- Then what are you complaining about? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3342</page.no>
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            <para>- I am not complaining so much as simply stating the facts. We were told, when we agreed to the War Precautions Act, and sometimes when we were asked to pass regulations under that Act, that they would only be used for the purpose of preventing the enemy from securing information; but we have since found that the War Precautions Act, the Crimes Act, and a number of other measures have been used mainly against those Australians who hold views different from members on the Ministerial benches, and I have no hesitation in saying that the action of the Government in regard to the censorship was responsible for throwing many thousands, of votes against the referendum. Then, again, the police,-&#39; though in some instances they were moderately fair, allowed speakers at &#34; No &#34; meetings to be hustled most unreasonably. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3342</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- What did they do at the &#34; Yes &#34; meetings? &#34; </para>
          </talk.start>
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          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3342</page.no>
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            <para>- They took good care that proper order was maintained. The prosecution of public men who made statements that were not in strict accordance with fact - although they spoke on the best information obtainable - and the prosecution of newspapers, was directly connived at by the Government to defeat the referendum. I am quite sure that, the Government realize now that the defeat of the referendum proposals was largely due to the causes that I have stated. What could be more ridiculous than for the Prime Minister, before the referendum of 1916, to force large numbers of young men into camp? By this blunder they lost tens of thousands of votes. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3342</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- The honorable member&#39;s present leader approved of that. </para>
          </talk.start>
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          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3342</page.no>
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            <para>- Of course, we approved of it. I was in favour of it, because I knew how the country would vote \vhen it realized the effect of conscription. I am not sure that the branches of the Labour movement to which I have referred were not justified in adding the names Hughes and Holman to the list of those mainly responsible for the defeat of the referendum proposals. </para>
          </talk.start>
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        <para>I have no hesitation in saying that the recent strike iu New South Wales was engineered by the New South Wales Nationalist Government. They made <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Fraser,</inline> Chief Commissioner of Railways, their instrument to bring about a dispute. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3343</page.no>
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            <para>- The wharf labourers in Melbourne were out on strike before the railway men in New South Wales struck. </para>
          </talk.start>
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              <page.no>3343</page.no>
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            <para>- In my opinion, the strike at the Randwick work-shops was engineered by Chief Commissioner Fraser, at the dictation of the New South Wales Government, at a time when they knew that that would dislocate the trade of the country and adversely affect the conduct of the war. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3343</page.no>
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            <para>- Who engineered the Melbourne wharf labourers&#39; strike? Adela Pankhurst! </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3343</page.no>
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            <para>- After the wharf labourers&#39; strike had been almost settled, the Steam-ship Owners Association, because of a difficulty in manning the </para>
          </talk.start>
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        <para>
          <inline font-style="italic">Oonah,</inline>kept all the seamen in Australia out of work for quite fourteen days. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3343</page.no>
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            <para>- That is not a fact. </para>
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        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3343</page.no>
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            <para>- It is a fact. The members of the National party are responsible for the falling off in the number of volunteers. They are determined to do all thev can to hinder Australia from assisting the Empire during thewar. </para>
          </talk.start>
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        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3343</page.no>
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            <para>- And the Labour party, I suppose, is encouraging Australia to do all iti can for the prosecution of the war ! </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3343</page.no>
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            <para>- That is so. Honorable senators opposite, led by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Guthrie,</inline> have the impertinence to say that strikes have been due to the unions, but the Steam-ship Owners Federation, his bosses, when a dispute arose concerning the <inline font-style="italic">Oonah,</inline> sent the following telegram to the secretary of the Federation in, Sydney :  - </para>
          </talk.start>
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        <para>As Seamen&#39;s Union will not provide less than a wholecrew for <inline font-style="italic">Oonah,</inline> and this vessel is manned by volunteer firemen, some of whom wish to remain in employment, members have decided not to engage members of the Seamen&#39;s Union until <inline font-style="italic">Oonah</inline> is manned, and to discharge all unionmen who have been engaged. No steamers are to leave port until Seamen&#39;s Union are prepared to provide men who will work along with any labour employed by ship-owners, whether on shore or afloat. Advise Cooper. </para>
        <para class="block">They thus held up the whole of the maritime transport of the Commonwealth. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3343</page.no>
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            <para>- That did not start the strike. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3343</page.no>
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            <para>- It continued it for at least fourteen days. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3343</page.no>
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            <para>- Who started the strike ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3343</page.no>
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            <para>- The New South Wales Government, by engineering the introduction of sweating into the Randwick work-shops, knowing that the men would refuse to accept their conditions - they have not yet accepted them - and that the ensuing strike must spread. The statement cannot be controverted that the Steam-ship Owners Federation, for which <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Guthrie</inline> is now barracking, stopped the maritime transport of the Commonwealth for fourteen days, when the strike was nearly settled. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3343</page.no>
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            <para>- Your friends who laid the mines off Gabo are those who were responsible. Tell us about the <inline font-style="italic">Cumberland</inline> and the <inline font-style="italic">Kembla.</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3343</page.no>
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            <para>- I am telling the honorable senator of something of which he does not like to be reminded. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3343</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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            <para>- The statement of <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Guthrie</inline> that it was friends of <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Grant</inline> who laid mines off Gabo is one which should not pass unchallenged. It is offensive to members of this party, and should be withdrawn and apologized for. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3343</page.no>
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            <para>- It is not any of the honorable senator&#39;s business. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3343</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- It is my business. I am a friend of <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Grant,</inline> and the statement is, therefore, offensive to me. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
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            <page.no>3343</page.no>
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          <para>- The Standing Orders provide in clear and unmistakable terms that no statement in disparagement of an honorable senator, or of any member of the Commonwealth Parliament, shall be made. They do not, however, declare that a disparaging statement may not be made concerning any one else who is either a friend or an enemy of an honorable senator. Ishould have a very difficult task if I were called upon to defend every individual outside Parliament, and the Standing Orders do not empower me to do so. If, however, <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Grant</inline> says that he regards the statement complained of as personally offensive to him, I shall ask <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Guthrie</inline> to withdraw it. </para>
        </talk.start>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3344</page.no>
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            <para>- Owing to a slight disturbance in my immediate vicinity, I did not hear the interjection, otherwise I would have promptly asked for its withdrawal. It is only typical of statements that were made by the Nationalists during the campaign. I regard it as personally offensive, and ask that it be withdrawn. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
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            <page.no>3344</page.no>
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          <para>- Since the honorable senator regards the interjection as offensive to him, I ask <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Guthrie</inline> to withdraw it. </para>
        </talk.start>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3344</page.no>
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            <para>- The <inline font-weight="bold">Deputy President (Senator Shannon)</inline> ruled just prior to your resuming the chair, sir, that the Standing and Sessional Orders having been suspended, it was a case of &#34;Go as you. please &#34; with us. Since under the Standing Orders all interjections are disorderly, and cannot be taken notice of, I stand by my interjection. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3344</page.no>
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            <para>- I do not know what ruling was given in my temporary absence, but I would remind the honorable senator that the Standing Orders have not been suspended except in so far as they would prevent the passage of this Bill through all its stages without delay. All the Standing Orders providing for the properand orderly conduct of business in the Senate remain in force, and must be obeyed. I therefore ask the honorable senator to withdraw the statement. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3344</page.no>
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            <para>- I withdraw it. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
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              <page.no>3344</page.no>
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            <para>- I have taken part, in many campaigns, but I have never experienced so much personal abuse as was indulged in by the other side - from the Prime Minister downwards - during the recent referendum. It may not have been intended to arouse antipathy to members of the Nationalist party, and to stir up strong opposition to the principles they were advocating, but it certainly had that effect. I am glad that in the Senate, at all events, statements that are uncalledfor, and not in accordance with fact, are not permissible under the Standing Orders, and must be withdrawn. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para>The present Government, which is, in effect, a continuation of the Administration which conducted the referendum campaign, made a considerable number of promises during the fight, and many of the electors thought that the Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Hughes),</inline> the Minister for the Navy <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Joseph Cook),</inline> and other members of the Cabinet who made those promises, meant what they said. They believed that if the &#34; Yes &#34; vote were not successful, the Government would not attempt to carry on, but would immediately resign. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3344</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JU7</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">DE LARGIE, Hugh</name>
              <name role="display">Senator de Largie</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Does the honor able senator hold the present Government responsible for the actions of the late Government ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3344</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I do. The old Government merely went out at one door and came in at the other. We were told only a few minutes agoby <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Earle</inline> of the magnificent work done by the Prime Minister in organizing the industries of Australia, as well as in other directions. He quite erroneously claimed for the present Government the credit of those achievements. Those who know anything of the facts, and are prepared to speak the truth concerning them, will admit at once that it was whilst Leader of the Labour party that <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> took in hand the work of releasing the Australian metal trade from German influence. It was while he was Leader of the Labour party that he purchased the fifteen vessels now comprising the Commonwealth line of steamers, and carried out most of the other works referred to by the honorable senator. As a matter of fact, every one of those matters, with the exception of the agreement for the&#39; sale of rabbits to the British Government, were dealt with by the Prime Minister, either wholly or in part, while he was Leader of the Labour party. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3344</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K5R</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">SENIOR, William</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Senior</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- So the honorable senator claims all the good things on behalf of the Labour party ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3344</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
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            <para>- The new Government is welcome to the credit of having made the agreement for the sale of rabbits, under which, I believe, they have succeeded in robbing the rabbiters of a very substantial sum. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3344</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K1L</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">BARNES, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Barnes</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- &#163;230,000. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3344</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
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            <para>- <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Barnes,</inline> who is a prominent member of the Australian Workers Union, to which the rabbiters belong, assures us that the Government have shorn them of &#163;230,000 as the result of the agreement under which rabbits are being sold to the British Government. That will not stand to their credit. Thev have robbed the rabbiters of money to which they are entitled. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para>Speaking at Manly the Minister for the Navy said - </para>
        <quote>
          <para>The Government will not attempt to carry on the government of the country if &#34; No &#34; is voted. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">The Prime Minister, speaking at Uralla on 2nd December last, said - </para>
        <quote>
          <para>If it (the Government&#39;s proposals) were not agreed to, lie would refuse to carry on, and any Government which might then come into power would be entirely free from responsibility to keep the pledges he had made. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">Speaking at Her Majesty&#39;s Theatre on 4th December, he said - </para>
        <quote>
          <para>And I declare that unless the Government of this country has this power it is asking for, it will not - cannot, indeed - attempt to govern. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">Many of the unsophisticated people of Sydney who heard, or read, these statements, believed that the Government would refuse to carry on if the &#34; No &#34; vote were successful, and would at once make way for another Administration. We know that the Government did not do so. The Postmaster-General <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Webster),</inline> speaking at Yass on 5th December, said - </para>
        <quote>
          <para>If the referendum is not carried, the Ministry will resign in twenty-four hours, with the result that the government of the country will be handed over to strikers, disloyalists, and I.W.W., and Sinn Feiners. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">I wonder he did not say they were Bolsheviks; and I have no doubt he had the name in his mind. The Prime Minister, at Goulburn, on 6th December, said - </para>
        <quote>
          <para>In effect, what the people of Australia have to determine on 20th December is what ideals they stand for . . . by whom they intend to be governed. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">At Junee, on 7th December, he said - </para>
        <quote>
          <para>If you reject the reinforcements referendum proposals I shall hold myself free to do that which I think necessary to be done. I have said that this Government will not retain office unless you approve of these proposals. This is so. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">The Minister for the Navy, at Willoughby, on the 11th December, said - </para>
        <quote>
          <para>We are deliberately taking the risk, and we <inline font-style="italic">say</inline> we shall not be doing ourselves justice as honorable and honest men if we did not put our all to the hazard in the hope of getting these mon. So far from there being any ulterior motives, it is really we who are making the sacrifice, and we mean to return with a triumphant majority. And we say, &#34; Unless you do that, some one else can have the chance of carrying on the Government.&#34; </para>
        </quote>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3345</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JU7</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <role />
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              <name role="metadata">DE LARGIE, Hugh</name>
              <name role="display">Senator de Largie</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- From what paper are you quoting. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3345</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The <inline font-style="italic">Daily Telegraph</inline> of 5th January. I suppose the hon orable senator is anxious for me to quote from the <inline font-style="italic">Standard,</inline> and ! shall do so presently. The Postmaster-General, at Brisbane, on the 12th December, said - </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <quote>
          <para>If you vote &#34; No &#34; the Government will not remain in office twenty-four hours. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">The Minister for the Navy, at Summer Hill, on 15th December, said - </para>
        <quote>
          <para>If our proposal is not carried we will ask to be relieved from the responsibility of conducting the war. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">The Prime Minister, at Bathurst, on 17th December, said - </para>
        <quote>
          <para>So far as this Government is concerned, I repeat that unless it has the power it seeks it will not attempt to govern this country. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">Personally, I was all the time of the opinion that, no matter what happened, the late - or the present - Government would find ways and means of holding on to office. I sometimes thought that they might make some slight alteration in the <inline font-style="italic">personnel</inline> of the Ministry, but, on the whole, I felt that they would not relinquish their positions; and in this I was not disappointed. Many people, of course, were of opinion that the members of the Government actually meant what they said; and, in determining to hold on to office, the Ministry have brought the words of public men into greater disrepute than has any other event that has happened in the Commonwealth. In view of the f actthat , the Government and their supporters in another place number fiftythree as against twenty-two Labour men, and about twenty-four as against twelve in the Senate, it seemed plain to me that they would  necessarily  remain in office; but these definite promises, threats, or pledges were repeated by prominent men in the Ministerial rank, not only in the few cases I have quoted, but all over the Commonwealth throughout the campaign, and the impression was left on the minds of a great number of electors that, unless there was a majority vote for the referendum proposal, they would not attempt, either as that Government or any other, to carry on the business of the country. However, they, have broken their pledge in word and deed, and, as I say, have brought the public&#39; utterances of public men into more disrepute than any other action could have done. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3345</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K5V</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">SHANNON, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Shannon</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Did the Government resign ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3345</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- They did. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K5V</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">SHANNON, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Shannon</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Then they carried out their pledge. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- A resignation of that kind is a mere flimsy pretext, unworthy of honest and honorable men. It would have been far better had no pledge at all been made; but it was made, and that was part of the blundering work of honorable senators on that side. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para>The Government and their supporters charged the Labour party with doing nothing to win the war. I point out clearly and distinctly that, like the late Government, the present Government have a majority in both Chambers, and have absolute control of the affairs of the country. That being so, they have no right whatever to expect or rely on members of the Opposition to show them what to do. But as the Government have no initiative, and are perfectly helpless - as they have done nothing and are not likely to do anything - I shall show what, in my opinion, they can and ought to do in regard to recruiting, and, incidentally, towards winning the war. The first step on the part of the Government should be to increase the soldiers&#39; pay. It may be a matter of no importance to men who are receiving substantial pay themselves how the soldiers and their dependants are faring.- Is it fair to men who, in civil life, were receiving &#163;4 and &#163;5 per week when they enlisted, that they should be paid only 6s. per day ? Is such a pay fair to their wives and familiesor dependants ? </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
            </talker>
            <para>-Do you think it is fair? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I do not; and I think that the Government ought to increase the pay. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Then why did you support the present pay for over two years in silence? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I never supported it. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Yes, you did. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I was always in favour of increasing the soldiers&#39; pay. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- And yet you never said a word for two years ! </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Never mind about the past; let us deal with the present position. Is it fair that the Prime Minister should receive &#163;2,400 per year, and that members of this Parliament should be paid &#163;600 per year, while the men who are fighting in thetrenches are paid only 6s. per day? I do not wonder at the </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para class="block">Bolsheviks taking charge in Russia, and endeavouring to see that a fair division is made. We are told by honorable senators opposite of the wealth and potentialities of this country, and yet we continue to pay this miserable pittance to our soldiers. Since August, 1914, the cost of living has increased enormously, and the very least we can do - and the Government has the power to do it - is to increase the pay of our soldiers. I do not say how much the pay ought to be increased. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Lynch</name>
            </talker>
            <para>-How much has the cost of living gone up? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- According to <inline font-style="italic">Knibbs,</inline> about 33 per cent.; and it would be only fair to increase the pay of the soldier correspondingly. This country is wealthy enough to bear an expense of the kind. Why not increase the salary of the soldier to the amount he was earning as a civilian when he enlisted ? This country can easily afford to do that, and would do it if the soldiers demandedit. The first thing the Government ought to do when it asks a man who has been earning &#163;4 or &#163;5 per week to leave his wife and family is to see that the dependants are left in possession of an income equal to what the man has earned in civil employment. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JRW</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">CRAWFORD, Thomas</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Crawford</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Suppose he is get ting &#163;10 per week ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Pay the man the amount he earned, no matter what it was. Is it fair to ask a married man to leave a good position, go abroad, and fight for us, and perhaps come back maimed, for a pay of 6s. or 7s. per day? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JRW</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">CRAWFORD, Thomas</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Crawford</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Not when there are so many single men. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Whether a man is single or married, it is fair that he should receive in the Army the salary he was earning when he enlisted. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- We should have all sorts of pay in the same regiment. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>-That would not matter. We have captains, lieutenants, and warrant officers on different rates of pay now, and the man in the front trenches receives the lowest pay of all. If the Government think they will get vast armies of recruits under existing conditions, they are mistaken. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3346</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Gardiner</inline> said that Australia had done marvellously well under these conditions. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3347</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Australia, through the men, at the Front, has done marvellously well. We have a right to see that &#39; the dependants of , a soldier are as well cared for as if the soldier were at home pursuing his ordinary avocation. If the Government wish to secure additional men to fight for the interests of the Commonwealth, the proper course is to at once increase the pay to the amount recruits were receiving when they were in civil employment. I believe the Government of New South Wales does make up the pay of those of its servants who enlist to the amount they were receiving as civilians. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3347</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KNB</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">GUTHRIE, Robert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Guthrie</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- So do the other State Governments. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3347</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
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            <para>- But the great bulk of the people are not in Government positions, and it is the duty of the Commonwealth to take their case in hand and increase their pay. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3347</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Lynch</name>
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            <para>- Would the honorable senator make the increase retrospective ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3347</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- I should start straightway, and I should not mind if the increase were made retrospective. Nothing is too good for the men who went  to the Front, as I expect they will let us know when they return and become properly organized. I have suggested one means by which the Government lean substantially increase the number of recruits. There is so much distrust of the present Government among those who are eligible to go to the Front that the number of volunteers is decreasing day by day. The decrease may not be due to the fact that the present Government are in office, but that is my interpretation of the position. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para>I turn now to. the separation allowances. Fancy asking a woman to live on ls. 5d. per day, and to keep a child on 4id. It is not enough to buy lollies for the child. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3347</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JU7</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">DE LARGIE, Hugh</name>
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            <para>- Which Government fixed the present rates of pay ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3347</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- A Government of  which  the present Prime Minister and Minister for Defence were members. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3347</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
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            <para>- The rates were fixed by the Cook Government, of which I was Minister for Defence, and were continued by a Labour Government for two years. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3347</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- Since then the pensions and the separation allowances have been increased. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3347</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GUTHRIE, Robert</name>
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            <para>- And the sailors&#39; pay was increased a few days ago. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3347</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- The pay of the soldiers has not been increased. The time has come for the Government to realize that the dependants of soldiers cannot meet the expenses of living unless the pay is increased. I do not mind if the Government increase the rate to 8s. or 9s. per, day, or to the amount the man was receiving in civil employment. The pensions paid to the men who return maimed are not sufficient. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3347</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUL</name.id>
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              <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
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            <para>- And again I say that the honorable senator helped to pass that pensions scale. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3347</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- At the time at which they were passed we may have been of opinion that they were sufficient or all that we could afford. But three years have elapsed since then, and in the meantime the pensions have been increased at least once. The time is opportune to increase them again. The countryis immensely wealthy and can afford to pay an increase. If the Government sincerely desire to see more soldiers offeringfor military service let them increase the pay, the separation allowance, and the pensions; the public will be only too glad to meet the bill. Moreover, the Government and the departmental officers should treat with every courtesy, and particularly with promptitude, the claims of those women who have business relations with the Defence Department. Red-tape should be eliminated wherever possible, and whenever money is due they should receive it promptly. I have had brought under <inline font-style="italic">my</inline> notice many bitter complaints of almost interminable delay in regard to the payment of money that is due to relatives of soldiers. I quite realize that a Department which is called suddenly into being must take time to shake down into working order, and that men who have not had experience in military positions cannot be expected to work as efficiently as trained officers; but after three years the Defence Department should be in a position to deal  promptly  with any persons to whom money is due as a pension or as pay. I have suggested ways in which the Government may easily increase the number of recruits. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para> Let them also re-assure the country by giving a definite promise that the idea of compulsion for  military  service abroad is definitely and finally abandoned. I am not sure that the public will accept the word of the Government, but if they do  not give such an assurance they will delay healing the breach that exists amongst the people to-day. We have sent, approximately, 400,000 men voluntarily. Probably a few more might have gone had they so desired, but the only way to get them is the method that I have pointed out. </para>
        <para>It has been suggested by some writers in the press that the construction of the cruiser <inline font-style="italic">Adelaide</inline> at Cockatoo Island, in Sydney Harbor, should be discontinued, and that the slip should be used for the construction of merchant vessels. If that suggestion were carried out it would . mean either that the uncompleted cruiser would be slipped to the botttomof the harbour, where it would block up the fairway, or that it would be dismantled, involving a waste of many thousand pounds. I hope that the Government will not entertain the idea. I saw the vessel under construction about seven days ago, and, from what I gather, work is proceeding upon it most expeditiously. There are from 400 to 500 men directly employed on it, and in the course of a few months it should be ready for launching.. Nothing should be done to interfere with its construction. Let it be launched, and then the slip-way, if necessary, can be used for the construction of one or more of the merchant vessels which it is contemplated shall be built. At present there is ample room for building those vessels without interfering with the <inline font-style="italic">Adelaide.</inline> I am glad to learn that something definite has been done in regard to the construction of vessels in Australia. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3348</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GUTHRIE, Robert</name>
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            <para>-But  not in a harbor where it cost &#163;100,000 to build a coffer-dam to launch a vessel. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3348</page.no>
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            <para>- The honorable senator has no knowledge of the matter about which he is talking. He has been ashore so long that he does not know what a coffer-dam is. The construction of one for the purpose of completing the slip from which the cruiser <inline font-style="italic">Brisbane</inline> was launched was absolutely necessary, and it is a permanent piece of work which will last for all time. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3348</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">GUTHRIE, Robert</name>
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            <para>-  It will not. Have another look at it. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3348</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- I have looked at it, both during its construction and not later than the 15th instant. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
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          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3348</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GUTHRIE, Robert</name>
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            <para>-  With a 4-foot rise and fall of tide, Port Jackson is the worst harbor in the world for shipbuilding. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3348</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- I wish to show <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Millen</inline> where he can get the necessary revenue to pay increased wages to soldiers, an increased allowance to dependants of the soldiers, and increased pensions to the soldiers and soldiers&#39; widows; also, incidentally, but none the less equally important, to put real life into his so-called repatriation scheme by making land available for returned soldiers as well as for others who may desire to use the land of the Commonwealth. According to the Treasurer <inline font-weight="bold">(Sir John Forrest)</inline> the estimated revenue for the current year is made up as follows : - </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para class="block">
          <graphic href="084332191801222_53_0.jpg" />
        </para>
        <para class="block">The Leader of the Senate has told us that the estimated Commonwealth war expenditure by the present Government to the 30th June this year is &#163;189,045,757 from Loan Funds, and &#163;25,834,916 from revenue, or a total of &#163;214,880,673. We are also told that the annual interest bill on our war expenditure from Loan Fund will be &#163;8,747,214. </para>
        <para>To my mind, the cost of the war is not being placed on the right shoulders. A great deal of emphasis has been laid upon the statement made by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Andrew</inline> Fisher. It was more or less a figurative statement which was not meant to be taken literally, but the party opposite repeat it day by day as if they would like the public to understand that it was to be taken literally - that <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Fisher</inline> was prepared to send the last man and spend the last shilling. We know very well that he did not mean the last man and the last shilling. We have not commenced to take the last shilling ; we have not commenced to think about it. We have borrowed &#163;189,000,000, and the only money that we have paid out of revenue is &#163;25,000,000. Instead of taxing amusements and single men, or collecting taxation through the Customs, the people who should pay the taxtion of the country are those who own the country - the land-owners. According to the financial statement, they are to be called upon to pay only a paltry &#163;2,100,000 this year. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3349</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">GUTHRIE, Robert</name>
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            <para>-  Paltry? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3349</page.no>
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            <para>- Yes, it is but a paltry sum. We hear that the war expenditure of Great Britain amounts already to over &#163;5,000,000,000, and her war budget runs into &#163;500,000,000 a year. What  is  &#163;2,000,000 a year to the people who own the Commonwealth of Australia f It is an unconsidered trifle. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
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            <talker>
              <page.no>3349</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">RUSSELL, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Russell</name>
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            <para>-  Is there not &#163;3,500,000 derived from State land taxation ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3349</page.no>
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            <para>- I am not speaking of State land taxation. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
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              <page.no>3349</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">RUSSELL, Edward</name>
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            <para>-  I thought the honorable senator was speaking of the taxation of the land-owners of Austrafia, </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3349</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- -I am putting forward the necessity of getting the owners of Australia to pay the taxation, or most of it, required to carry on the war. The total amount they are to be called upon to pay  thiB  year is only &#163;2,110,000. As honorable senators are aware, the Senate was good enough to enable mc to obtain a return of the total value of the lands of the Commonwealth. They were returned as worth &#163;445,000,000. I do not say that that valuation is quite accurate, but  it  was as near as could be supplied from the information disclosed by the wealth census cards. I believe that the people who own land worth &#163;445,000,000 are not called upon to pay enough for its defence when they are asked to contribute only &#163;2,110,000 a year. What are our men fighting for ? They are fighting for&#34; Australia. Let honorable senators listen to . what <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Outhwaite,</inline> M.P., said at a conference held in Glasgow on 4th December, 1916,- when the.hall was packed to overflowing with from 700 to 800 persons - </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para>Lately wa have had some measures  of  land reform  in  the House  of  Commons. We have  had  a Small Colonics  Bill,  which  was a Bill to  purchase land at the  high  inflated war prices and  put  the soldiers upon  it.  That means,  if  you buy the land  on the high-price  basis,  and put the men on it,  they  will pay  a  high  rent  and  rates  and  taxes,  and it  means making such  men the  slaves  of the  soil.  To  the  man  who fought to save this land. &#39;from German possession you  SHY,  &#34; Before  you  can use  an  acre, you have to pay  &#163;50  or  &#163;60 an  acre to the landlord for permission to do so.&#34; That is the fate of the soldier who goes to fight for&#39; Great Britain. If he comes back and desires to produce anything, he has first of all to interview one of the* friends of honorable senators opposite, one of the landlords of Great Britain, and  plead with him to let him purchase some.  of  the land  he  has fought for. He has not the right  to  produce anything  at al)  unless he first of  all  agrees  ,to  pay the landlord &#163;50  or  &#163;60  an  acre for the land  he  requires. Where is the returned British soldier  .to  get that money out  of  his pay  of ls.  per day ! He must get a mortgage,  .or  something of the sort, and remain  an  absolute slave upon the land for the rest  of  his life. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Outhwaite</inline> went on to say - </para>
        <para>Well, you may accept that position  - I  don&#39;t think this audience will, and  I  think tho soldier himself will have something to say. </para>
        <para class="block">Honorable senators will agree with me that when the soldier from Great Britain goes into Flanders, and fights, there for Great Britain,  he  should get better treatment  on  his return than to have  to  pay &#163;50  or  &#163;60  an  acre for&#39; the right  to  produce something whereon  to  live. Is there not the same state  of  affairs  in  Australia <inline font-style="italic">1</inline> What becomes  of  the returned Australian soldiers <inline font-style="italic">1</inline></para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3349</page.no>
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              <name role="metadata">GUTHRIE, Robert</name>
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            <para>-  We are doing the best we oan for them. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3349</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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            <para>- .No, we are not. We are doing practically nothing for them, and no one knows that better than does <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Guthrie.</inline> The only way in which we can do anything of permanent value for our returned soldiers is to make  it  impossible for Australian land sharks to hold their lands unless they put them to the highest possible productive use. The only way  in  which we oan do that is, as I have remarked before  in  this chamber </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3349</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GUTHRIE, Robert</name>
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            <para>-  Many times. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3349</page.no>
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            <para>- Tes; I have many times said that the only way is to make  all  land subject to a land value  tax  so heavy that no man will be able to afford to hold on to land and do nothing with  it.  All &#39;the talk about repatriation can lead  to  nothing so long as the lands of the country are held out of use as they are  to-day. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para>However unpleasant  it  may be to honorable senators opposite, and however much they may be afraid of the* landlord&#39;s vote, I remind them that  in  Australia, with its population of approximately 5,000,000, there are 4,000,000 people who do not own any land &#39;at all. </para>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>3349</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>JRW</name.id>
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            <name role="metadata">CRAWFORD, Thomas</name>
            <name role="display">Senator CRAWFORD</name>
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          <para>-  We have 370,000,000 acres of Crown lands  in  Queensland. </para>
        </talk.start>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3350</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">DE LARGIE, Hugh</name>
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            <para>- There is double that area in Western Australia,so we could afford to give the people a good deal of land. I could get a farm of 1,000 acres in Western Australia for the hono rable senator for next to nothing. </para>
          </talk.start>
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        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3350</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KMP</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GRANT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The honorable senator might do so if I were willing to take up land along the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta railway, where there is an average rainfall of 6 inches a year, and where in some years it does not rain at all. That is the place where, when <inline font-weight="bold">Senator de</inline> largie waa a member of the Labour party, it was said that he held a magnificent estate comprising 10,000 square miles, or 10,000 miles square. When the honorable member was a member of the Labour party he was said on that account to be the champion land monopolist, but since he went over to the other side we hear nothing more about it. There is, no. doubt, plenty of land to be obtained along the Kalgoorlie to Port Augusta railway, where the rainfall amounts to only 6 inches a year, but&#39; I do not think that land will be rushed for many years to come. The fact remains that there aro plenty of good lands in the Commonwealth easily accessible to the markets of the country which are being purposely held out of use , in order that the owners may later on secure an enhanced price for them. We hear, almost every year, of proposals to tax lands within 20 miles of a railway because they are held out of use, but nothing conies of them. The result is that we send men abroad to fight for Australia, and when they return they find it almost impossible to secure suitable employment. There are thousands of men who are not returned soldiers who also find it difficult to secure suitable employment. This is mainly, if not entirely, due to the fact that we have been foolish enough to practically imitate here the land laws of Great Britain. I ask leave to continue my remarks at the next sitting of the Senate. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para>Leave granted; debate adjourned. </para>
      </speech>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>HOUR OF MEETING</title>
        <page.no>3350</page.no>
        <type>miscellaneous</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Motion (by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Millen)</inline> agreed to- </para>
      <quote>
        <para>That the Senate, at its rising, adjourn until 11 o&#39;clock to-morrow morning. </para>
      </quote>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>ADJOURNMENT</title>
        <page.no>3350</page.no>
        <type>adjournment</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Gold Passes fob Ministers. </para>
      <para>Motion (by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Millen)</inline> pro posed - </para>
      <quote>
        <para>That the Senate do now adjourn. , </para>
      </quote>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>3350</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
            <electorate>New. South Wales</electorate>
            <party />
            <role />
            <in.gov>0</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
            <name role="display">Senator GARDINER</name>
          </talker>
          <para>. - In this morning&#39;s papers appears a statement headed &#34; Gold Passes for Ministers. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. O&#39;Malley&#39;s</inline> Last Act.&#34; Any one reading it would be led to believe that <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. .</inline> O&#39;Malley issued those passes of his own volition. As a member of the Cabinet which agreed to it, after detailed consideration of the whole business, brought properly before it by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. O&#39;Malley,</inline> I ask the Minister representing the Minister for Railways, who was also a member of the Cabinet, is it not a fact that the matter was considered By the Government in a proper way, and agreed to ? </para>
        </talk.start>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>3350</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>KUL</name.id>
            <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
            <party>NAT</party>
            <role>Minister for Repatriation</role>
            <in.gov>1</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
            <name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
          </talker>
          <para>. - I have not had an opportunity of seeing the statement, but before the debate closes I shall make some reference to the matter. </para>
        </talk.start>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>3350</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Gardiner</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- It is most unmanly for the Government responsible for it to allow a Minister to be blamed for what the Government did. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <para>Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
      </speech>
    </debate>
    <adjournment>
      <adjournmentinfo>
        <page.no>3350</page.no>
        <time.stamp>22:53:00</time.stamp>
      </adjournmentinfo>
      <para>Senate adjourned at 10.53 p.m. </para>
    </adjournment>
  </chamber.xscript>
</hansard>