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19180524_senate_7_85.xml
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19180524_senate_7_85.xml
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<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<hansard xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd" version="2.1" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance">
<session.header>
<date>1918-05-24</date>
<parliament.no>7</parliament.no>
<session.no>2</session.no>
<period.no>0</period.no>
<chamber>SENATE</chamber>
<page.no>5080</page.no>
<proof>0</proof>
</session.header>
<chamber.xscript>
<para class="block">Senate. </para>
<business.start>
<day.start>1918-05-24</day.start>
<para>The <inline font-weight="bold">President (Senator the Hon. T. Givens)</inline> took the chair at 11 a.m., and read prayers. </para>
</business.start>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5080</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>REPRESENTATIVES OF PRESS</title>
<page.no>5080</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<para>Invitation to Visit London</para>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5080</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KTD</name.id>
<electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MCDOUGALL, Allan</name>
<name role="display">Senator McDOUGALL</name>
</talker>
<para>- I ask the Minister representing the Prime Minister whether it is a fact, as reported in the newspapers, that a number of press men are going to England? I want to know if their expenses are to be borne by the Commonwealth or by the Imperial Government? </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5080</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
<party>NAT</party>
<role>Minister for Repatriation</role>
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
</talker>
<para>- I remind the honorable senator that, in replying to a question submitted yesterday, I think by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Needham,</inline> the answer given included an intimation that a full statement on the subject would be made shortly. </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5080</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>AUSTRALIAN IMPERIAL FORCE</title>
<page.no>5080</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<para>Age of Enlistment and Parental Consent - Badges for Female Relatives of Soldiers</para>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5080</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JXV</name.id>
<electorate>SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
<party>ALP; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">NEWLANDS, John</name>
<name role="display">Senator NEWLANDS</name>
</talker>
<para>- I ask the Minister for Defence whether, in view of the alterations made in the regulation concerning youths under nineteen years of age joining the colours, he will take steps to release from service all youths now in camp between the ages of eighteen and nineteen years, irrespective of whether their parents ask for their release or otherwise? </para>
</talk.start>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5080</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K0F</name.id>
<electorate>WESTERN AUSTRALIA</electorate>
<party>NAT</party>
<role>Minister for Defence</role>
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
<name role="display">Senator PEARCE</name>
</talker>
<para>- I am glad that the honorable senator has asked this question, because it gives me an early opportunity to correct what' seems to be a misapprehension on his part, and, also, on the part of others. The age of enlistment has not been raised to nineteen years, but continues as before at eighteen years, but young men cannot be enlisted under the age of nineteen years without the consent of their parents. If they have their parents consent, they can be enlisted at eighteen years, although they are not allowed to go into camp untilthey are eighteen and a half years of age.With respect to those who have gone into camp under the regulation permitting enlistment without the parents' consent, the answer to the honorable senator's question is that the parents of such young men as he refers to will have the right to withdraw them if they come under any one of the three heads of the amended regulation to which I referred yesterday. That is to say, the amended regulation is made retrospective. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5080</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JXV</name.id>
<electorate>SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
<party>ALP; NAT from 1917</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">NEWLANDS, John</name>
<name role="display">Senator NEWLANDS</name>
</talker>
<para>- Can they be withdrawn absolutely, or only until they have reached the age of nineteen years? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5080</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K0F</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
<name role="display">Senator PEARCE</name>
</talker>
<para>- The amended regulation is made retrospective. It will be read as if the three clauses which I mentioned yesterday were a part of the regulation from the time it was originally issued. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5080</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZD</name.id>
<electorate>QUEENSLAND</electorate>
<party>NAT; UAP from 1931</party>
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">FOLL, Hattil</name>
<name role="display">Senator FOLL</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the. Minister for Defence, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>Has the issue of badges to next-of-kin of soldiers who have fallenin this war yet been commenced? </para>
</quote>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5080</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K0F</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
<name role="display">Senator PEARCE</name>
</talker>
<para>- It is assumed that the badges alluded to are those for issue to nearest female relatives of members of the Australian Imperial Force. If so, the position is that considerable delay has occurred in obtaining delivery of the badges from the contractor, who has been hindered through inability to obtain adequate supplies of suitable enamel. I have referred the matter to the recentlyappointed Board of Business Administration with a view to the manufacture of the medals being expedited and early issue commenced. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>QUESTION</title>
<page.no>5080</page.no>
<type>Questions</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>PRICE FIXING</title>
<page.no>5080</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<para class="block">Second-hand Bags. </para>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5080</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K1L</name.id>
<electorate>VICTORIA</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">BARNES, John</name>
<name role="display">Senator BARNES</name>
</talker>
<para>asked the Minister representing the Minister in charge ' of Price Fixing, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice-</inline></para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>Has the Government made any attempt to fix the price of second-hand bags for use as potato bags, wheat, and chaff bags? </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>If not, why? </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5080</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K3E</name.id>
<electorate>VICTORIA</electorate>
<party>NAT</party>
<role>Vice-President of the Executive Council</role>
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">RUSSELL, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator RUSSELL</name>
</talker>
<para>- The answers are - </para>
</talk.start>
<list type="decimal-dotted">
<item label="1.">
<para>Yes. The matter, which is a very difficult one, owing to the variation in quality, is being dealt with "at the present time. </para>
</item>
<item label="2.">
<para>See reply to No. 1. </para>
</item>
</list>
</speech>
</subdebate.1>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>LOANS SINKING FUND BILL</title>
<page.no>5081</page.no>
<type>bill</type>
</debateinfo>
<para class="block">Bill read a third time. </para>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>COMMONWEALTH INSCRIBED STOCK BILL</title>
<page.no>5081</page.no>
<type>bill</type>
</debateinfo>
<para>Bill read a third time. </para>
</debate>
<debate>
<debateinfo>
<title>ACTS INTERPRETATION BILL</title>
<page.no>5081</page.no>
<type>bill</type>
</debateinfo>
<subdebate.1>
<subdebateinfo>
<title>Second Reading</title>
<page.no>5081</page.no>
</subdebateinfo>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5081</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate>New South WalesMinister for Repatriation</electorate>
<party>NAT</party>
<role />
<in.gov>1</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator MILLEN</name>
</talker>
<para>. - I move - </para>
</talk.start>
<quote>
<para>That this Bill be now read a second time. </para>
</quote>
<para class="block">This is a short measure, the usefulness of which will be recognised by honorable senators. Under section 19 of the Acts Interpretation Act provision is made that references in any Act to " the Minister " includes a Minister acting for " the Minister." Considerable inconvenience has arisen in cases where a Minister has been compelled to leave his Department and has had to leave an Assistant Minister in charge. It has sometimes happened that although the Assistant Minister has decided upon a certain course of action, he has been unable to give statutory effect to his decision without first obtaining the signature of a Minister of State to the document embodying it. It is proposed by this Bill to amend the existing Acts Interpretation Act by providing that any reference 'in an Act to " the Minister" shall include not only the Minister acting for " the Minister," but also any member of the Executive Council so acting. Honorable senators having a knowledge of what takes place in parliamentary life will see that in a few words this really enables an Assistant Minister to sign documents which at (present can only be signed by Ministers of State. The decided convenience of the course proposed in this Bill will commend itself to the approval of honorable senators. </para>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5081</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KNB</name.id>
<electorate>South Australia</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">GUTHRIE, Robert</name>
<name role="display">Senator GUTHRIE</name>
</talker>
<para>. - I do not know where we shall stand if this Bill is passed. If we look back to not very ancient history we shall find that on one occasion the Prime Minister, the Minister for the Navy, and another Minister had a conference in Sydney, at which they passed certain regulations to meet a condition of things which they anticipated would arise. As a result <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Gardiner,</inline> the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Higgs,</inline> who was at the time Treasurer of the Commonwealth, and another Minister, I think <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. King</inline> O'Malley, objecting to the regulations agreed to at that conference, tendered their resignations. This Bill will validate such action as these former Ministers of State of the Commonwealth absolutely repudiated. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5081</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZ9</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">O'KEEFE, David</name>
<name role="display">Senator O'Keefe</name>
</talker>
<para>- What the honorable senator means is that the Bill will make an Assistant Minister a member of the Executive Council, and he is not a member of it. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5081</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K0F</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
<name role="display">Senator Pearce</name>
</talker>
<para>- He is already a member of the Executive Council. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5081</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KNB</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">GUTHRIE, Robert</name>
<name role="display">Senator GUTHRIE</name>
</talker>
<para>- Yes ; that is what it means. It will give an Assistant Minister full power to do anything he pleases iu connexion with the office which he is for the time administering. I object to that, but I need not labour the question. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5081</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JXJ</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator Needham</name>
</talker>
<para>- It gives an Assistant Minister the power -of a Minister with a salary. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5081</page.no>
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<name role="metadata">GUTHRIE, Robert</name>
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<para>- The salary does not worry me at all. The question I wish to raise on this Bill is that it will vest in a Minister, who has no cognisance of the matter in question, the power to sign a document which will then have legal effect. I shall not labour the question any further, but will leave it to the Senate. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5081</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZ9</name.id>
<electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">O'KEEFE, David</name>
<name role="display">Senator O'KEEFE</name>
</talker>
<para>. - We have had only a few words of explanation of the Bill from the Minister for Repatriation <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Millen)</inline> and <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Guthrie's</inline> protest. In the necessarily hurried consideration of the matter one may not have been able to grasp all that is covered by this measure. Even after listening to <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Guthrie,</inline> I believe that ,the Bill cannot do very much harm. I take it that, if passed, it will place a man who enjoys the title of Assistant Minister in the same position, and clothe him with the same full powers, as a salaried Minister of State at Cabinet and Executive Council meetings. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5081</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K0F</name.id>
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<name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
<name role="display">Senator Pearce</name>
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<para>- He has that power. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5081</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZ9</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">O'KEEFE, David</name>
<name role="display">Senator O'KEEFE</name>
</talker>
<para>- That is a direct contradiction of the statement made by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Guthrie</inline> in his references to a certain incident. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5081</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K0F</name.id>
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
<name role="display">Senator Pearce</name>
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<para>- What is the position of an Assistant Minister at an Executive Council meeting now? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5081</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZ9</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">O'KEEFE, David</name>
<name role="display">Senator O'KEEFE</name>
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<para>- The Minister for Defence <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Pearce)</inline> is a little premature. He need not assume that I air. discussing this measure in a spirit of opposition. It is for the honorable senator or some other member of the Government to contradict the assertion made by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Guthrie.</inline> The honorable senator's statement is practically that, owing to the action taken by an Assistant Minister at the time of the incident to which he referred, certain Ministers of State of the then Government tendered their resignation. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5082</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KNB</name.id>
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">GUTHRIE, Robert</name>
<name role="display">Senator Guthrie</name>
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<para>- This Bill is to validate such action as that then taken. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5082</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZ9</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">O'KEEFE, David</name>
<name role="display">Senator O'KEEFE</name>
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<para>- This cross-firing across the chamber has quite justified me in speaking on the second reading of the Bill, because <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Guthrie</inline> is an old parliamentarian. He has been a member of this Parliament for a great number of years, and he is just as much in the dark as some of the newer members of Parliament. I take it that any man who occupies the position of Assistant Minister is entitled to go to an Executive Council meeting. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5082</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
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<para>- Undoubtedly. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5082</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZ9</name.id>
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">O'KEEFE, David</name>
<name role="display">Senator O'KEEFE</name>
</talker>
<para>- I take it, also, that he is clothed with' powers as full as those invested in the Prime Minister himself. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5082</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
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<para>- Yes. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5082</page.no>
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<name.id>JZ9</name.id>
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">O'KEEFE, David</name>
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<para>- And I assume that his signature on any document relating to such crucial matters as has been mentioned by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Guthrie</inline> would be just as effective as that of the Prime Minister himself. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5082</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
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<para>- Exactly. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5082</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZ9</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">O'KEEFE, David</name>
<name role="display">Senator O'KEEFE</name>
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<para>- If, then, the Assistant Minister has these powers, what harm can there be in passing this Bill, though. I do not know there is any necessity for it. The Minister did not make the matter quite clear. I understand that at present it is competent for the Government or the Prime Minister to delegate to an Assistant Minister any power which he himself exercises in the temporary administration of any Department, the only difference being that the Assistant Minister does not hold a portfolio and His Excellency's commission. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5082</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPE</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">KEATING, John</name>
<name role="display">Senator Keating</name>
</talker>
<para>- He does hold His Excellency's commission as an Executive Councillor. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5082</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZ9</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">O'KEEFE, David</name>
<name role="display">Senator O'KEEFE</name>
</talker>
<para>- We are now eliciting information from an honorable senator who is in the happy position of having been a Minister. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5082</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPE</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">KEATING, John</name>
<name role="display">Senator Keating</name>
</talker>
<para>- An Assistant Minister is an Executive Councillor. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5082</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZ9</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">O'KEEFE, David</name>
<name role="display">Senator O'KEEFE</name>
</talker>
<para>- If we have reached that stage in the administration of our public affairs that it is necessary to appoint extra Ministers, the Government, I think, ought to be prepared to shoulder the responsibility of asking that additional Ministers be appointed. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5082</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K2L</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
<name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
</talker>
<para>- Have they not done so ? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5082</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZ9</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">O'KEEFE, David</name>
<name role="display">Senator O'KEEFE</name>
</talker>
<para>- No ; they have appointed Assistant Ministers. I believe it would be better to divide up the whole of the administrative work, and, if necessary, to establish two or three other administrative Departments, in order to lessen the work which now falls on the shoulders of the present Ministers. Of course, the responsibility of bringing forward such a measure rests with the Government. I think they should appoint real Ministers, and not Assistant Ministers; and I think, also, that Assistant Ministers should be clothedwith exactly the same powers as any Minister holding a portfolio. Until we get further information from the Minister in contradiction -of <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Guthrie's</inline> assertion, I- </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5082</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
</talker>
<para>- The honorable senator's remarks show thathe does not need any explanation, because he has correctly summed up the position. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5082</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZ9</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">O'KEEFE, David</name>
<name role="display">Senator O'KEEFE</name>
</talker>
<para>- Then I intend to support the Bill. But I think it would be far better if, instead of continuing the practice of appointing Assistant or Honorary Ministers, the Government would ask for authority to appoint additional Ministers with portfolios. It would be better if the Government tackled this job in a proper way, even in spite of criticism from the press, because we know the newspapers are always howling if the slightest attempt is made to establish another Department. We know how the newspapers howled when the Repatriation Department was created and the. Minister for Repatriation appointed. In spite of all this, I think it would be better if the Government shouldered the full responsibility, and, if necessary, took steps to create extra portfolios. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5082</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K1I</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">BARKER, Stephen</name>
<name role="display">Senator Barker</name>
</talker>
<para>- With all the present Ministers and Committees they ought to be able to properly distribute the work. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5083</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZ9</name.id>
<electorate />
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">O'KEEFE, David</name>
<name role="display">Senator O'KEEFE</name>
</talker>
<para>- That is all very well ; but we have been informed that Ministers want to get into recess within a fortnight, not because there is no work for Parliament to do, but because they want the extra time for the administration of their different Departments. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5083</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZC</name.id>
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<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">O'LOGHLIN, James</name>
<name role="display">Senator Lt Colonel O'loghlin</name>
</talker>
<para>- What about the temporary appointment of Ministers to act in the absence of a Minister, as in the present instance, with regard to the Prime Minister and the Minister for the Navy ? </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5083</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZ9</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">O'KEEFE, David</name>
<name role="display">Senator O'KEEFE</name>
</talker>
<para>- It may be necessary to have, say, one Honorary Minister in each House to take up Ministerial work if a Minister falls ill. The Bill raises a big question, but, apparently, Ministers are not prepared to shoulder the responsibility of creating new portfolios, and intend to continue under the present system. I cannot see that any harm can be done by passing the Bill. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5083</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPE</name.id>
<electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">KEATING, John</name>
<name role="display">Senator KEATING</name>
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<para>. - I listened carefully to the Minister for Repatriation <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Millen)</inline> when moving the second reading, and I hardly think he went far enough in justification of the measure. I feel sure also that <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Guthrie</inline> has misread the Bill. </para>
</talk.start>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5083</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
</talker>
<para>- I thought it was so simple that I would not be justified in detaining the Senate for very long upon it. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5083</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPE</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">KEATING, John</name>
<name role="display">Senator KEATING</name>
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<para>- I think the reasons advanced by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Millen,</inline> in justification of the Bill, were the least important. His argument, summed up, appeared to be that it was necessary sometimes for Assistant Ministers to sign documents. But at present, and. since about 1913, it has been the practice for Assistant, or Honorary, Ministers to attach their signatures to many documents. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5083</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
</talker>
<para>- They may sign some, but not others. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5083</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPE</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">KEATING, John</name>
<name role="display">Senator KEATING</name>
</talker>
<para>- Yes, I am aware of that. But I would point out that we frequently see the signatures of Honorary Ministers attached to notices appearing in the <inline font-style="italic">Gazette</inline> on behalf of some particular Minister of State. I have taken a copy of the <inline font-style="italic">Gazette</inline> at random, and I observe that two notices on behalf of the Defence Department are signed, one " E. J. Russell, for Minister of State for Defence," and the other by " E. D. Millen, for Min ister of State for Defence." This evidently was during the absence of the Minister for Defence <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Pearce)</inline> in Western Australia in January last. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5083</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KUL</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">MILLEN, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator Millen</name>
</talker>
<para>- In those cases it was one Minister of State signing for another Minister of State. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5083</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K3E</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">RUSSELL, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator Russell</name>
</talker>
<para>- I could not sign a War Precautions Act Regulation. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5083</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPE</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">KEATING, John</name>
<name role="display">Senator KEATING</name>
</talker>
<para>- Perhaps not. But I think I have seen the signature of the Vice-President of the Executive Council, in conjunction with that of the GovernorGeneral, attached to Statutory Rules issued under that Act. </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5083</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>K3E</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
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<name role="metadata">RUSSELL, Edward</name>
<name role="display">Senator Russell</name>
</talker>
<para>- <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Pearce</inline> has no power to delegate authority to any Honorary Minister to sign an order under the War Precautions Act. </para>
</talk.start>
</interjection>
<continue>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5083</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>KPE</name.id>
<electorate />
<party />
<role />
<in.gov>0</in.gov>
<first.speech>0</first.speech>
<name role="metadata">KEATING, John</name>
<name role="display">Senator KEATING</name>
</talker>
<para>- I am aware of that. ' </para>
</talk.start>
</continue>
<para>In 1901 we passed an Acts Interpretation Act, which provided that a " Minister of State " shall mean " one of the King's Ministers of State for the Commonwealth." </para>
<interjection>
<talk.start>
<talker>
<page.no>5083</page.no>
<time.stamp />
<name.id>JZC</name.id>
<electorate />