19230809_senate_9_104.xml

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  <session.header>
    <date>1923-08-09</date>
    <parliament.no>9</parliament.no>
    <session.no>2</session.no>
    <period.no>1</period.no>
    <chamber>SENATE</chamber>
    <page.no>2353</page.no>
    <proof>0</proof>
  </session.header>
  <chamber.xscript>
    <para class="block">Senate. </para>
    <business.start>
      <day.start>1923-08-09</day.start>
      <para>The  President <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator the Hon. T. Givens)</inline> took the chair at 3  p.m., and read prayers. </para>
    </business.start>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>2353</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>H.M.A.S. GERANIUM</title>
          <page.no>2353</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para class="block">alleged Munityamong Men. </para>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2353</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JXZ</name.id>
              <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">DUNCAN, Walter</name>
              <name role="display">Senator DUNCAN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I ask the Minister representing the Minister- for Defence whether his attention has- been called to a report to the effect that a mutiny has occurred on H.M.A.S. <inline font-style="italic">Geranium,</inline> owing to the poor quality of the food supplied; and that, as a result, twelve men were placed under arrest and are being brought to Melbourne  for  trial? Has he any information to give the Senate on the matter? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2353</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KBJ</name.id>
              <electorate>SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role>Honorary Minister</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">WILSON, Reginald</name>
              <name role="display">Senator WILSON</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- My attention has not been directed to the report, but I shall bring the matter under the notice of the Minister for Defence. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>PAPERS</title>
        <page.no>2354</page.no>
        <type>papers</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>The following papers were presented :  - </para>
      <quote>
        <para>Defence Act - Regulations amended - Statutory Rules 1923, No. 99. </para>
        <para>Defence Department - Statement explanatory of Estimates of Expenditure, 1923-24. </para>
        <para>Lands- Acquisition Act - Land acquired for Postal purposes at Nundah, Queensland. </para>
        <para>War Service Homes Act - Land acquired at Goulbnrn, New South Wales. </para>
      </quote>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>2354</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>BOOT AND SHOE INDUSTRY</title>
          <page.no>2354</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>Imports and Unemployment</para>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2354</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
              <electorate>WESTERN AUSTRALIA</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator NEEDHAM</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Customs, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline> 1.Is he aware whether there is a vast consignment of boots and shoes about to be landed in Australia? </para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="2.">
              <para>Is he aware whether most of the employees in the hoot trade are only employed about half-time? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="3.">
              <para>Is he aware whether approximately 40 per cent. of the employees in the boot trade are idle? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="4.">
              <para>If such is the case, will he apply the antidumping law in order to prevent the landing of boots and shoes in the Commonwealth whilst this unemployment continues? </para>
            </item>
          </list>
          <para>SenatorWILSON. - The answers are - </para>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>A statement to that effect has been made, and instructions have been issued to the Collectors of Customs in the several States to investigate the matter with a view to applying the provisions of the Customs Tariff (Industries Preservation) Act if such action . be warranted. 2 and 3. A statement has been received to the effect that unemployment in the boot trade is considerable. </para>
            </item>
            <item label="4.">
              <para>See reply to No. 1. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>2354</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>TAXATION DEPARTMENT</title>
          <page.no>2354</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>Reductions of Staff: Government Proposals</para>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2354</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JZD</name.id>
              <electorate>QUEENSLAND</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">FOLL, Hattil</name>
              <name role="display">Senator FOLL</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Prime Minister, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>Will the Government make an announcement shortly as to what action they intend taking so far as the Federal Taxation Department is concerned, so that the employees may have some idea of the fate in store for them? </para>
          </quote>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2354</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K0F</name.id>
              <electorate>WESTERN AUSTRALIA</electorate>
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role>Minister of Home and Territories</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
              <name role="display">Senator PEARCE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The Prime Minister has supplied the following answer :  - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>The proposals of the Government in this matter will be announced as early as possible. </para>
          </quote>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2354</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate>WESTERN AUSTRALIA</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Treasurer, upon <inline font-style="italic">notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>Whether it -is anticipated that any reduction of staff, either permanent or temporary, will be necessary in Western Australiaudner the proposed arrangement between the Commonwealth and the States for the furnishing of a single return for income tax purposes? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>Whether, in the event of the necessity for a reduction in staff, the Government will issue instructions to have such excess officers absorbed in other Departments before any further addition is made to the clerical staffs of those Departments? </para>
            </item>
          </list>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2354</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0F</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator PEARCE</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- The Treasurer has supplied the following answers: - </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>The matter is under consideration. </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>Yes. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>2354</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>WAR SERVICE HOMES COMMISSION</title>
          <page.no>2354</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>Tasmanian Branch</para>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2354</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K09</name.id>
              <electorate>TASMANIA</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">PAYNE, Herbert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator PAYNE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Minister for Works and Railways, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>Is it the intention of the Department to practically close the Tasmanian branch of the War Service Homes Commission, and control the operations in Tasmania in future from the Melbourne office? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>If so, will the Minister for Works and Railways delay any definite action in this regard until an opportunity is given for representations being made to him in opposition to the alteration as suggested? </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2354</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JRW</name.id>
              <electorate>QUEENSLAND</electorate>
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role>Honorary Minister</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">CRAWFORD, Thomas</name>
              <name role="display">Senator CRAWFORD</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The answers are :  - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>Yes. Applicants for War Service Homes will not be prejudiced in any way, and the activities of the Commission in building and acquiring homes in Tasmania will be carried on in accordance with the approved programme The result of the proposal will be&#39; to &#39;supply War Service Homes at considerably less cost to the Commonwealth. </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>Such request cannot be acceded to, in view of the early expiration of the lease of premises occupied by the Commission in Hobart, but any representations made will be fully considered. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>NORTHERN TERRITORY</title>
        <page.no>2354</page.no>
        <type>miscellaneous</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>
        <inline font-weight="bold">Senator LYNCH</inline>in asking the Minister representing the Treasurer, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
      <quote>
        <list type="decimal-dotted">
          <item label="1.">
            <para>What <inline font-style="italic">is</inline> the total expenditure on the Northern Territory from loan and revenue since the Commonwealth assumed control? </para>
          </item>
          <item label="2.">
            <para>The amount of indebtedness of the Northern Territory for which the Commonwealth assumed responsibility, including the cost of the Oodnadattarail way? </para>
          </item>
          <item label="3.">
            <para>The total loss on the Oodnadatta railway, within the Northern Territory, since the assumption of Commonwealth control? </para>
          </item>
        </list>
      </quote>
      <para class="block">I desire to say that I wished to ascertain the loss not only on the Oodnadatta railway, but also on the railway within the Territory itself. </para>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>2355</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>K0F</name.id>
            <electorate />
            <party>NAT</party>
            <role />
            <in.gov>1</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
            <name role="display">Senator PEARCE</name>
          </talker>
          <para>- The Treasurer has supplied the following information :  - </para>
        </talk.start>
        <para class="block">
          <graphic href="104332192308094_2_0.jpg" />
        </para>
        <para>The expenditure includes Post Office and Trade and Customs, which were taken over by the Commonwealth in 1901. </para>
        <para class="block">
          <graphic href="104332192308094_2_1.jpg" />
        </para>
        <para>Full particulars regarding the Northern Territory and thePort Augusta-Oodnadatta Railway will be found on pages 98 and 99 of the 1923-24 Budget papers. </para>
      </speech>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>WARRANT OFFICER J. R ALLEN</title>
        <page.no>2355</page.no>
        <type>miscellaneous</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Discharge from Military Forces: Select Committee. </para>
      <para>Motion (by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Elliott)</inline> agreed to- </para>
      <quote>
        <para>That the time for bringing up the report be extended to this day week. </para>
      </quote>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>2355</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>IMPERIAL AND ECONOMIC CONFERENCES</title>
          <page.no>2355</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>Subjects Listed for Discussion</para>
        <para>Debate resumed from 1st August <inline font-style="italic">(vide</inline> page 1938), on motion, by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Pearce</inline> - </para>
        <quote>
          <para>That the paper (Imperial and Economic Conferences 1923 - subjects listed for discussion) be printed. </para>
        </quote>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2355</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
              <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
              <name role="display">Senator NEEDHAM</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - I think it may be said that of all questions to which this Senate may address itself, the forthcoming Conferences in London occupy first place in order of importance. Very shortly the Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce),</inline> and a Minis terial colleague, <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Wilson,</inline> will leave Australia for the heart of the Empire, and there will expound their views as to what Australia thinks concerning the subjects listed for discussion by the Conferences. The speech delivered by the Prime Minister I have read, and I listened to the speech by the right honorable the Leader of the Senate (Senate Pearce) : but in neither could I discover evidence of the true Australian spirit. When the Ministry was formed we were told that every member of it was an Australianborn citizen. That is something of which to be proud ; but I have searched in vain the utterances of both the Prime Minister and <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Pearce</inline> for that note of selfrreliance so characteristic of Australians. Anything in the nature of an Australian policy in relation to Imperial affairs is entirely lacking. The Prime Minister was exceedingly cautious.  His  remarks reminded me of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Asquith&#39;s</inline> famous motto, &#34; Wait and see.&#34; It is evident that- the Australian delegates have no policy of their own, and that they intend to wait and hear what the Imperial and other representatives at the Conferences may have to say. It would have been better, I think, if the Government had formulated a direct policy, and had clothed our delegates with authority to expound it at the approaching Conferences in London. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>Among the subjects to be dealt with is that of trade reciprocity between the various portions of the Empire. Personally, I should not like to see any reciprocal arrangement that would endanger our present Tariff. Although I am a Protectionist, I hold no brief, for&#39; the Tariff, because I do not think it is sufficiently Protectionist. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2355</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXP</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Edmund</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Drake-Brockman</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Not high enough ? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2355</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
                <name role="display">Senator NEEDHAM</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- It is not effective because it does not prevent the dumping of cheap-labour goods in Australia. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2355</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KKZ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">GARDINER, Albert</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Gardiner</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- But the Minister assured us that it was a scientific Tariff. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2355</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
                <name role="display">Senator NEEDHAM</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- It may be termed a scientific Tariff, but I know it is not effective. The conditions of industrial workers in other portions of the Empire are not so good as those of men working in Australia. I do not want it to bo thought, however, that I believe the conditions in Australia are all that they should be, but I think it can be said that they are in advance of industrial conditions in other parts of the world. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JZD</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">FOLL, Hattil</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Foll</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- The conditions elsewhere to-day are better than they were a few years ago. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
                <name role="display">Senator NEEDHAM</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I doubt if industrial conditions in the Mother Country to-day are much of an improvement upon those which obtained when I worked there myself. The conditions in Australia are not as good as I should like them to be, but they are certainly ahead of conditions elsewhere. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>Another question to be discussed at the Conference is that of migration. I have no doubt that our delegates will be interrogated on this subject, and I should like them to be in a position to say that, before any general migration policy is established, Australia intends to pass legislation for a tax on unimproved land values. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KBJ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">WILSON, Reginald</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Wilson</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- The honorable senator ought not to advocate that policy. It rightly belongs to <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Grant.</inline></para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
                <name role="display">Senator NEEDHAM</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Grant,</inline> like myself, is a citizen of Australia. He and I are members of a party that advocates this important policy. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXZ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DUNCAN, Walter</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Duncan</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- But, unlike <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Grant,</inline> the honorable senator advocates it with a big exemption. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
                <name role="display">Senator NEEDHAM</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- In connexion with this matter, I have in mind the vast empty spaces of Australia. These empty spaces are not only in the back-blocks. Some are right alongside our railway lines, and include considerable areas of cultivable land, which are held by land monopolists for speculative purposes. We should compel these monopolists to disgorge. According to the Budget figures, the present land tax will realize about &#163;2,000,000. Until we compel these land monopolists to disgorge the extensive territories held by them, we cannot very well support the proposed migration scheme. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KBJ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">WILSON, Reginald</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Wilson</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Ample land is available in Western Australia. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
                <name role="display">Senator NEEDHAM</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Yes, but for the reasons I have already given vast tracts are at present unoccupied. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KBJ</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">WILSON, Reginald</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Wilson</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- There . is plenty of land available without action being taken in the direction which the honorable senator suggests. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
                <name role="display">Senator NEEDHAM</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Yes, but ifour empty spaces are to be peopled the land monopoly must be destroyed. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXP</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <name role="metadata">DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Edmund</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Drake-Brockman</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- What is a land monopolist? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
                <name role="display">Senator NEEDHAM</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- One who holds land, the value of which has been improved by State or private enterprise, with the object of selling it ultimately at a very favorable price. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXP</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <name role="metadata">DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Edmund</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Drake-Brockman</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Does the honorable senator mean any one who holds land without using it ? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
                <name role="display">Senator NEEDHAM</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Yes, and the value of which is increased as the result of the efforts of others. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K8P</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">THOMPSON, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Thompson</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- But the holder pays rates and land tax. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- Yes, but in consequence of the development on surrounding properties the value of his land increases, and the profit he eventually makes more than covers what he has contributed in the form of rates and taxes. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KBJ</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <name role="metadata">WILSON, Reginald</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Wilson</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- The honorable senator has been more fortunate in his land deals than I have been. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
                <name role="display">Senator NEEDHAM</name>
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              <para>- I do not own any land. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Edmund</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Drake-Brockman</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- That is why the honorable senator knows so little  of the topic which he is discussing. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- My learned and gallant friend knows little concerning law, and that is why he is one of its chief exponents in this Chamber. It is an indisputable fact that many of our own people who are desirous of settling on the land cannot obtain blocks; and until provision is made to meet the local demand we should not attempt to bring settlers from overseas. A more careful inspection of migrants than exists at present is also necessary. Honorable senators who have seen migrants arriving from Great Britain will admit that many are quite unsuitable to assist in the development of our country areas. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXP</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Edmund</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Drake-Brockman</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Some are mentally deficient. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- That is so. Many who are sent into the country return to the city within a few weeks to compete with our own artisans who are vainly seeking work. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">WILSON, Reginald</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Wilson</name>
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              <para>- Can the honorable senator suggest any means of keeping them in the country? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2356</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- That can only be done by improving the existing conditions. Many who have arrived in Western Australia are working for wages  ranging from 15s. to 25s. per week and keep, and after a short experience return to Great Britain. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2357</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Edmund</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Drake-Brockman</name>
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              <para>-  On the closer settlement areas they are. receiving 10s. a day. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2357</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- Those employed in group settlements, clearing land for themselves, are receiving that amount. The group settlement in Western Australia is a splendid example of co-operative effort, and I trust that other States will adopt . a similar system. Many migrants, sent to the country by the New Settlers&#39; League, or other similar bodies, return to the cities within a few weeks. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>Reference was also made by the Prime Minister ; <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce)</inline> to the appointment of a resident Minister in London, but I hope that no such appointment will be made. A High Commissioner is quite competent to represent the Commonwealth in London. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2357</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JZD</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">FOLL, Hattil</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Foll</name>
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              <para>-  He has not executive authority. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2357</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- I do not think Australia would benefit if he had. In addition to the High Commissioner there are six Agents-General. By sending a Minister to London we should simply be adding to Commonwealth expense without obtaining any beneficial result. If we abolished the High Commissioner&#39;s office, I should not object to the appointment of a Minister, but I should not agree to filling both offices. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>A matter of far-reaching importance to be considered at the Imperial Conference is that of defence, and the Leader of the Opposition <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Gardiner)</inline> has well expressed the Labour party&#39;s ideas on the subject. We are not prepared to allow Australia to be dragged into any and every quarrel in which the Imperial Government might become involved. It has been said that, because we adopt that policy, we are desirous of&#34; cutting the painter.&#34; </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2357</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">WILSON, Reginald</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Wilson</name>
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              <para>-  Does the honorable senator expect to drag Britain into every trouble that Australia may have? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2357</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- I simply maintain that Australia should not be dragged into every quarrel in which Britain is involved. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2357</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Edmund</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Drake-Brockman</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  Technically, when Britain is at war, we are at war. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2357</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>-I shallcome later to that aspect of the subject. In the first place, we should mind our own business. By doing that, and doing it well, we shall be helping the Motherland just as much as by sending troops across the ocean. - </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2357</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
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              <para>-  What does the honorable senator mean by &#34;our business &#34; J </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2357</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- The business committed to our care in Australia. If Britain were involved in some trouble, and we defended Australia - and the Labour party is certainly prepared to do that - we should be defending one-fourth of the area of the British Empire. In addition to that, we should be defending all the interests of the British capitalists who have money invested in Australia. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2357</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">COX, Charles</name>
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              <para>-But we could not . do that. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2357</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- Australia lias not been put to that test. Surely the honorable senator is not prepared to libel Australia to such anextent ! </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2357</page.no>
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              <para>- If the advice of the Labour party were followed, Australia would not be able to defend itself. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2357</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- I contend that we could defend Australia, and, in doing so, we should be defending the Empire of which Australia is an important, integral part. My honorable and gallant friend, <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Cox,</inline> thinks that the frontiers of Australia should be transferred to any European country where war occurred; but I say that our frontiers are bounded by the ocean, and, by defending this part of the Empire, we shall be doing well. The party to which I have -the honour to belong was responsible for the inauguration of the Australian Navy, and, because of that, Labour men were dubbed disloyalists and traitors. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2357</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Edmund</name>
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              <para>-  They also promised the &#34; last man and the last shilling.&#34; </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2357</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- Long before the honorable senator graced this Chamber with his presence, another honorable senator, who is now dead, attacked me because I advocated the abolition of the naval subsidy to Great Britain and the creation of an Australian Navy. Honorable senators on the other side wanted to present a Dreadnought to Britain, and &#34;because we said that we desired to do away with the subsidy of &#163;200,000 a year, and build our own Navy, that honorable  senator to whom I have referred expressed the opinion that I should be expelled for wishing to &#34; cut the painter.&#34; </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>Another important matter to be brought up at the Conference is that of the Singapore Naval Base. I am not a naval expert, but Lord Jellicoe, who certainly is one. pins his faith, not to the Singapore Base, but to the Henderson Base in Cockburn Sound, Western Australia. </para>
          <para>SenatorFoll. - Lord Jellicoe has not been connected with the Navy for years. </para>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2358</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- He was actively engaged in naval affairs in the late war, after which he was asked to advise with respect to our naval bases. His report, dated August, 1910, contains the following paragraph: - </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <quote>
            <para>The cost of &#34; Works &#34; is not included. It is very desirable that such a sum should be set apart annually forthis important service as will serve to complete the naval bases at Cockburn Sound and, if possible, Harbor &#34;B &#34; also by the year1926, and the new dockyard at Port Stephens by, say. 1930. The, construction of the base at Bynoe Harbor is dependent on the development of the Northern Territory. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">Lord Jellicoe pins his faith to the Cockburn Sound proposal. Should Australia be attacked, and the Pacific become, as has been prophesied, the cockpit of Europe, we shall need a Naval Base in Australia. When the length of the coast line from Broome to Albany is taken into consideration, honorable senators must realize, as Lord Jellicoe says we should, that a base there, where repairs can be carried out, is necessary. I &#39;want Australia to be self-contained. We could maintain, not only the Henderson Naval Base, but other bases in Australia. There is no need for us to be dependent on the Mother Country. My statement in this regard is quite consistent with my approval of the abolition of the naval subsidy. I oppose the Singapore Base, but whether I oppose, it or not is immaterial, for the construction of it is the &#39;fixed policy of the British Government. I believe that the Commonwealth Government received advice on that subject before the Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce)</inline> made his speech regarding the Imperial Conferences. I also believe that he had information on the subject before he arrived in Fremantle recently, for in his speeches in Western Australiahe left the question of the Cockburn Sound Naval Base severely alone. </para>
          <para>
            <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Lynch,</inline>in his speech in this de bate, referred to the British Democracy. 1 have known my honorable friend for a long time. I have heard him speak here and on public platforms many times, and I say that his contribution to this debate was one of the finest utterances I have heard him make. He pointed out what the Democracy of Britain had done, and could do. I interjected that the power of the British Democracy was limited on account of its franchise. It has not an adult franchise such as is enjoyed by the Democracy of Australia. It is wonderful what the British Democracy has done in spite of its limited franchise. Every man and woman over twenty-one years of age in the Common wealth has a right to vote for the election of representatives to this National Parliament. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2358</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">WILSON, Reginald</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Wilson</name>
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              <para>- It is a great pity they do not use their votes. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
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                <page.no>2358</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- I agree with the honorable senator. It is a pity they do not use the weapon that has been placed in their hands. If they did use it, much better results for them- would be obtained. There is no adult franchise in Great Britain, but, notwithstanding&#39; the fact that the Democracy there is hobbled, it saved the world from being plunged into &#39; another shambles shortly after the Versailles Conference. Koltchak. was busy in Russia. The Imperial Government determined to send an army, or armies, to him to crush the Russian Soviet, but the British Labour party, elected under the limited franchise to which I have referred, said to the Government, &#34;Hands off Russia!&#39;&#39; The British Army was not sent to Russia, . and the world was saved from another war. The world was then staggering and bleeding from the wounds received&#39; during the awful cataclysm of 1914-1918. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2358</page.no>
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              <para>- Who told the honorable senator that the British Government intended to send an army to Russia ? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2358</page.no>
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              <para>- The world told me. It was common knowledge that if the British Labour party had not objected, the army would have been sent, and an attack made on the Russian Soviet. The honorable senator should read a little more, and he would then, perhaps, talk a little, less: </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2359</page.no>
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              <para>- That is what I was thinking of the honorable senator who is now addressing the Chamber. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2359</page.no>
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              <para>- Surely my honorable friend knows that the Russian Soviet was to be attacked. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2359</page.no>
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              <para>- I do not know anything of the sort. Neither does the honorable senator ; for it is not a fact. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2359</page.no>
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              <para>- When I resume my seat my honorable friend will have an opportunity to disprove my statements. I repeat, for his edification, that if it had not been for the action of the British Labour party, an army would have been sent to Russia. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2359</page.no>
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              <para>- The honors able senator makes these statements, but he gives no authority for them. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2359</page.no>
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              <para>- He is claiming too much for that episode. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2359</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- But the episode occurred. The more we talk of war, the greater is the danger of war. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>A few days ago a, great man passed away in the person of  President  Harding, and I noted one or two remarks made by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Pearce,</inline> when speaking of the death of that great man. Among other things, he said that  President  Harding was &#34; an apostle of peace.&#34; We should learn a lesson from the life-work of that man. Who makes wars? It is only those who are interested in war, and who profit by it, who make it. The workers of the world do not desire it. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2359</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Elliott</name>
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              <para>- Who, in England, desired the recent war? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2359</page.no>
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              <para>- I do not say that, the people of that country desired it, but I do say that by continually talking of war we shall create a mass mind that will rush into war. I know who pays for warsthe workers again. The workers of Australia volunteered and went to the Great War. Those of them who were spared to return are now paying for it. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2359</page.no>
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              <para>- And no one else? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2359</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- Not in proportion. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2359</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Edmund</name>
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              <para>- Every man in Australia is a worker. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2359</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- I admit that every person in Australia is a worker; but the duty of paying for the war has devolved more upon the manual worker and wage earner than upon the man higher up. . The following resolution was carried at a public meeting held in Adelaide a little while ago: - </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <quote>
            <para>In common with, the citizens of a score of other countries, including Great Britain, Germany, the United States of America, and other great powers, we, a mass meeting of the citizens of Adelaide, on the ninth anniversary of the outbreak of the most terrible -war in history, declare our abhorrence of war, and our conviction of the futility of war as a means of settling international disputes. We believe that the great armaments of the world, far&#39; from preventing war, are one of the causes of war; and -we therefore call upon the Government of the Commonwealth of Australia to use its position in the Assembly of the League of Nations to secure an immediate and drastic reduction of armaments. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">The resolution was spoken to by such men as <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. J.</inline> Gunn, Leader of the Labour party in South Australia; <inline font-weight="bold">Dr. Herbert</inline> Heaton, representing the Workers&#39; Educational Association; the Honorable W. Morrow, M.L.C., representing the Liberal Union; Rev. W. J. Mortimer, ex-president of the Methodist Conference ; Rev. G. E. Hale, representing the Unitarian Christian Church; <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. T.</inline> McCabe,  president  of the Trades Hall; <inline font-weight="bold">Mrs. Catlyle</inline> MeDonnel,  president  of the Women&#39;s Non-party Association; <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. E.</inline> J. Paternoster, representing the Churches of Christ; Rev. 1. A. Bernstein, the Jewish Rabbi; <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. H.</inline> S. Taylor, editor of the <inline font-style="italic">Murray Pioneer;</inline> the Honorable J. Verran,  president  of the Nationalist party; Rev. L. C. Parkin, representing the Congregational Union; Rev. A. C. Hill,  president  of the Baptist Union; Honorable P. McM. Glynn, representing the Roman Catholic Church; Adjutant Adams, representing the Salvation Army ; <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Elliot</inline> Thorp, representing the Religious Society of Friends; and <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Edwin</inline> Ashby, representing the Peace Society. Those persons represent the religious and industrial sections of South Australia. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2359</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
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              <para>- Does the honorable senator say that Australia has not already used its voice to give expression to that opinion. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2359</page.no>
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              <para>- We should continue to do so. The delegates to the Conference should make it plain that we do not desire war. There is not, to-day, a League of Nations; there is merely a league of some nations. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2359</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
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              <para>- And it is doing good work. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2360</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- I admit that it is doing good work ; but I think that far better work would be done if there were in existence a league of all the nations. What is being done by this League? Will any honorable senator tell me that the occupation of the Ruhr by France is not a violation of the Versailles Treaty of Peace ? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2360</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Edmund</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Drake-Brockman</name>
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              <para>- In what respect ? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2360</page.no>
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              <para>- The mere fact of the occupation of the Ruhr is a violation of that Treaty. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2360</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- Does the honorable senator contend that occupation of premises by a sheriff constitutes a violation of the law of a country? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2360</page.no>
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              <para>- I am not speaking of the law of the - country , I am speaking of the Versailles Treaty. I may be wrong, but my interpretation of that Treaty convinces me that the occupation of the Ruhr by France constitutes a violation of its provisions. The League of Nations, as at present composed, is standing idly by while France is rattling the sabre, and reducing the world to economic chaos. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2360</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Edmund</name>
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              <para>- Has not Germany also violated the terms of the. Treaty? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2360</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- In regard to the payment of reparations, yes. I ask my honorable friend, did he ever imagine that Germany could fulfil the obligations cast upon her by the reparations, clauses of the Treaty? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2360</page.no>
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              <para>-I do not know sufficient about the matter to be able to express an opinion. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2360</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- I shall quote a lawyer who is as eminent as my honorable friend - the Right Honorable William Morris Hughes, That right honorable gentleman told us that Germany would have to obey every word of that Versailles Treaty. At the same time he &#34;told us that we must never trade with Germany. If we. do not trade with Germany, how can she observe the provisions of that, portion of the Versailles Treaty? The same right honorable gentleman said, in the House of Representatives, at a later periods - </para>
            </talk.start>
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        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2360</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <name role="metadata">GIVENS, Thomas</name>
              <name role="display">The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon T Givens</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Order! The honorable senator will not be in order in referring to a debate of the current session in the House of Representatives. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2360</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- The right honorable gentleman, speaking in another part of this building, said that we were now trading with Germany. The Labour party is not desirous of &#34; cutting the painter.&#34; That party is quite prepared to see that Australia is defended, realizing that by defending Australia we shall, be defending one-fourth of the Empire to which we belong. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2360</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JZR</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">OGDEN, James</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Ogden</name>
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              <para>- Does the honorable senator think we shall ever have occasion to defend Australia? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2360</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- I hope that we shall not. Should occasion arise, however, I have every confidence that the manhood of Australia will be prepared to take part in its defence. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2360</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Edmund</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Drake-Brockman</name>
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              <para>- I presume that the honorable senator means adequate defence against all possible aggression? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2360</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- Adequate defence by aircraft, submarines, and the like. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2360</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Edmund</name>
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              <para>- Has the honorable senator considered what would be the cost to Australia of providing an adequate scheme of defence without assistance from the other parts of the Empire ? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2360</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="display">Senator NEEDHAM</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I realize that, if we had to defend Australia unaided, it would be costly. Just as my honorable friend was not able to express an opinion on a matter which I raised a little while ago, so I am not sufficiently versed in this matter to say what the cost would be. I desire that we shall not have any need to construct defence works. If the suggestion of that Adelaide meeting, the resolution of which I have read, were adopted, and we continually talked peace, the more surely should we have peace. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Lynch</inline> has said that it is child&#39;s play for any nation to involve the world in war. Our object should be to prevent, as far as we can, the occurrence of war. When the Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce)</inline> and <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Wilson</inline> go to London, I hope they will keep a wily eye on the warmonger and the man who is trying to create a war scare. If the Conference determines, that Australia shall be linked up with other parts of the Empire in every quarrel, I ask them to tell the delegates there assembled that they shall not place upon the brow of this young Australian nation that crown of thorns; that they shall not crucify young Australia on that cross of greed. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2361</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K2L</name.id>
              <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator REID</name>
            </talker>
            <para>.- I am very pleased indeed that the Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce)</inline> is going to attend the Imperial Conference. If honorable senators opposite realized the position, instead of finding fault, they would advance , suggestions which the Prime Minister might take as an instruction from Parliament. So far, the members of the Labour party have done nothing except find fault and misrepresent - perhaps not wilfully, but certainly foolishly - many matters. The existence of the Empire is a fact that we cannot deny. As a very important part of the Empire, we have to do our share of its work. Considering the great sacrifices  which have been made by all nations, the .outlook is not very promising. Many persons are afraid that we are rushing towards another war, and that, because of the unrest which has manifested itself in Europe and in Asia, the future of Australia and of the Empire does not appear to be very bright. One would like to think that the last war had taught humanity the necessity to avoid war in future. With humanity at the present stage of evolution, when any hardship presses upon a community, it immediately begins to fight. The resolutions passed in Adelaide and other places ignore that fact. The people cannot be made to sit down quietly under a grievance. Those persons who pass resolutions at public meetings are usually the strongest fighters when they are suffering under a grievance. In looking at the question whether war is likely to break out, all eyes are turned towards the East. We are continually being told of the danger that lies in that quarter. I do not apologize for the Japanese, but I consider that it is wise to try to see the point df view of one&#39;s opponent - if Japan can be so regarded by Australia. We hear a very great deal about Japan&#39;s preparations with a view to obtaining dominance in the East. I have here an article which was written by an English educationist who was in one of the Japanese universities. He was thought so highly of that, when he was leaving, the authorities bestowed upon him &#39; the highest honours in the gift of the university. This gentleman, who was. the head of the Educational </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para class="block">Department in Japan, gave an interview to the <inline font-style="italic">Japan Advertiser.</inline> That interview is instructive in that it indicates the new movement that is gathering force- in Japan in the interests of peace and goodwill among the nations of the world. It shows that the Japanese are focussing attention upon the education of the youth in the advanced grades of their national schools. It states - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>Half a century ago the Mikado of Japan, on being restored to temporal power after 1,000 years of merely nominal  rulership  bv his House, proclaimed the institution of a system of education whose ideal was to eliminate ignorance from prince to peasant. Thus Japan entered into possession of. her mind. To-day, by a stroke of superb educational imagination, Japan makes way for the entrance of her beautiful soul into the national mind and body - for, with the month of April, when the new school year begins, all references of a militaristic and narrowly patriotic kind will disappear from the <inline font-style="italic">National Reader</inline> and Sixth Grade History. In other words, new textbooks will be introduced into the primary schoOls of Japan in which the citizens of the future receive their most permanent and shaping impressions - from which, as a newspaper report puts it, all ideas in  keeping  with the spirit of a militaristic nation  have  been eliminated. Lessons which tended to imbue the child with a mistrust for and antagonistic attitude towards foreign nations have given way to friendly and peaceful top.es intended to cultivate in the pupil a true, though simple, international understanding and humanitarian .sentiment. </para>
          </quote>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2361</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JYG</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
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              <para>- Is mention made of the- proportion of Japanese revenue that is being spent on warlike preparations? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2361</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
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              <para>- No. We all know what Japan is doing in that direction, but I emphasize that there is a new school of thought springing up in Japan for the purposes of inculcating in the rising generation a broader and more humanitarian outlook. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2361</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JYG</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Elliott</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- It. is a very hopeful sign. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2361</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
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              </talker>
              <para>- It is. I am glad to know that the educational authorities in Japan are alive to their responsibilities. The &#39;article goes on to state - </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <quote>
            <para>W.hat this chance means in a nation that has lately been accused of national egoism, and of petty vanity brought about hy her Novation to the position of a  Great  Power through mere military good fortune, is  indicated  iti the fact <inline font-style="italic">that</inline> sketches of the lives of  fifty  prominent Europeans and Americans arc  included  in the <inline font-style="italic">National</inline><inline font-style="italic">Reader,</inline> which  formerly was almost  exclusively Japanese in contents. Quantitatively, this is a fine achievement. Japan lays down the sword of national pride at the  feet  of humanity, even as her Samurai, half a century ago, laid down the sword of disintegration at the feet of their Emperor and a united people. But it is the spirit of this new gesture of the true soul of Japan that gives it its full significance. Not only are the great ones of other nations admitted to the growing , imagination of the susceptible Japanese child, but the achievements of greatness are interpreted in terms, not of the prowess of bloodshed and slaughter, but of qualities of character. &#34; Through both books,&#34; says the semi-official reportbefore us, &#34; whore a noted general was previously eulogized forhis success in battle, he is, if possible, placed before the pupils in the new form, as showing some great trait of character which enabled, him to gain success.&#34; For example, Shon Yoshida, who was executed by the Tokugawas for preaching loyalty to the Throne, is praised lor his work for education, and for devotion to the Imperial Family. &#34;I think the result will be . . . that our children will grow up with a wider knowledge of, and a greater friendship for, the peoples of other nations. Our change, while abrupt, is in keeping with the spirit of the times throughout the world, and I trust that we will be able to carry these ideas even further.&#34; </para>
            <para>So said <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Taira</inline> Shidehara, Librarian of the Educational Department, in explaining the method and intention of this educational revolution to a representative of the <inline font-style="italic">Japan Advertiser.</inline></para>
            <para class="block">The opinion of this educationist is of very great value indeed, because, asI have stated, &#39;the Japanese esteemed him so highly that they conferred upon him the highest University honours. I should like also to read another extract from a Japanese daily newspaper, the <inline font-style="italic">Yorodzu,</inline> as showing the trend of events in that country - </para>
            <para>We regret that in South Africa, Australia, and Canada anti-Japanism prevails. This is particularly regrettable, because these British Dominions owe heavy debts of gratitude to Japan. Had Japan not taken sides with the Allies in the late war at an early stage of the hostilities, incalculable losses would have been caused to the&#34; interests of these British Dominions by ravages that might have been wrought by German warships, and other hostile activities. Instead of expressing gratitude to Japan, however, General Smuts and <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Hughes</inline> did not hesitate to espouse the cause&#39; of antiJapanism. In truth, excessive anti-Japanese policies are adopted in their countries. Even Canada has been following suit of late by making anti-Japanese bills the order of the day in its Legislature. </para>
            <para>The British people pose as apostles of justice, but their actual deeds of ingratitude give a false colour to these professions. Canada is following the American example to put restrictions on the entry of Japanese, and is attempting to subject the Japanese residents to all sorts of ill-treatment. In Australia the door is already shut upon the Japanese, while in South Africa it is difficult for Japanese to land. Freedom of travelling in that country is denied the Japanese. </para>
            <para>After these acts of iniquity and ingratitude, neither the Canadians, Australians, nor the Englishmen in South Africa have the right to talk of international justice and fidelity. The British Government is&#39; also to blame for the fact that it takes no action to remedy this situation. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">As I said earlier in my speech. I am not an apologist for Japan. From an Empire point of view, I am interested in the Japanese outlook, and I thought it wise to inform honorable senators of this important trend in Japanese public opinion, especially as we are continually being warned that we must prepare against Japanese aggression. </para>
          <para>I cannot help feeling that the real problem of the Empire is within its own borders. The Empire is probably the greatest factor for the advancement of civilization that has ever existed. I believe in its future, though perhaps I view some of its problems from an angle different from that of other student&#39;s of Empire destiny. While listening to the Leader of the Opposition <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Gardiner),</inline> I was struck with his altered tone, and were he present I should heartily congratulate him upon his new outlook as the represenative in the Senate of the Australian Labour party. That the same influences are at work in the ranks of the British Labour party is evidenced by remarks recently made by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Philip</inline> Snowden, one of its leaders. There appears to have been a disposition hitherto to regard the Empire as an Imperialistic scheme for the especial benefit of capitalist agencies. To-day the leaders of the Labour movement in Great Britain recognise that the Empire is a driving force in civilization, and in view of the rising tide of Labour in British politics, it is reassuring to know that Labour appears willing to recognise Empire responsibility This is what <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Philip</inline> Snowden said - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>The British Empire is . an established fact, the responsibility for which cannot be cast off. It would be a backward step to take any action to weaken or break the tics binding Britain and the Dominions, but the advantage to the Empire and the world of the maintenance of the Federation of the Empire depends upon the spirit animating it in its attitude to the remainder of the world. If the Anglo-Saxon Empire is animated by the . idea that Britain is opposed to the remainder of the world, nothing but evil could come of the Federation. On the contrary, if the Empire refrained from using its position and power forexclusiveness and domination, it might be the greatest instrument for progress evercreated. This .  is the only worthy destiny of the British people. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">I entirely and heartily indorse his remarks. I feel reassured when Labour in England has such leaders as <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Philip</inline> Snowden, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Ramsay</inline> Macdonald, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Webb,</inline> and many others. I am satisfied that, under&#39; their guidance, Labour will safeguard the interests of the Empire and make it worthy of civilization. I do not wish to be misunderstood. I believe that the Labour party, in its attitude to Empire problems, is more disinterested from the point of view of commerce and personal advantage than are members any other party. Labour is perhaps the biggest factor in British politics today. I believe its position will &#39; be strengthened in the near future, when it becomes allied with the best elements of the Liberal party. It will then form one strong body, and will be able to present an exceedingly strong front at the next British election. The position will be such that no particular party will be returned with an absolute majority. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2363</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Needham</name>
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              <para>- Ramsay Macdonald, the Leader of the Labour party, will have an absolute majority after the next election. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2363</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
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              <para>- No, but his party will have a dominating influence. There will have to be a fusion of the Labour and Liberal forces, and, now that the leaders of the Labour party in Britain regard the Empire as an important factor in the peace of the world, our position should be much more secure. What is the Empire? What is the influence of the Empire that makes it great? It is not because it consists of a number of important Dominions and dependencies that its greatness is recognised. The most important part of the British Empire is India, and, now that the troubles of Ireland have apparently been settled, the greatest Empire problem to be solved is that to which we refer as the problem of the East. If Britain had only taken the advice tendered to her in the past by reliable authorities, and had long since given self-government to Ireland, the bloodshed, suffering, and bitterness which has .been experienced in that country would have been avoided. It was only when driven by sheer brute force to a realization of the true position in Ireland that Britain came to her senses and granted Ireland the freedom which we hope she now enjoys. Ireland has paid her price for her liberty, and should eventually become one of the brightest gems in the British Crown. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2363</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOZ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">HOARE, Albert</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Hoare</name>
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              <para>- &#39;What of India?&#34; </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2363</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
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              <para>- Eventually India/like Ireland, will enjoy, I hope, selfgovernment. When that day arrives, the Empire will be safe, and will be able to fulfil all that we expect of it. Thepresent situation in India has arisen, largely in consequence of the actions and advice of interested individuals and officials who, after spending many years in that country, have returned to the centre of the Empire with autocratic ideas, and have influenced the Government in the wrong direction. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2363</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JYG</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Elliott</name>
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              <para>- What is the dominant party in India? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2363</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
                <name role="display">Senator REID</name>
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              <para>- That is a question which the people&#39; of India can settle for themselves. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2363</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JYG</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Elliott</name>
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              <para>- They have already done that. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2363</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
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              <para>- India&#39;s hope lies in the granting to her of a form of selfgovernment similar to that which &#39; has been given to Ireland. I can remember what I was. told as a boy concerning Ireland. We all know that the price which Britain had eventually to pay for giving that country its freedom was altogether too great. I have not been to India, but I have been a student of Indian history for a long time. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2363</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JYG</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Elliott</name>
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              <para>- Has there ever been . a united India? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2363</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
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              <para>- Yes, in the time of  Akbar,  and it will reach that stage again. Many who claim to be conversant with the conditions operating in India are guided largely by the information published in pamphlets issued by missionaries and different religious bodies. It is ridiculous to say that India is not a nation. The Hindus are the oldest civilization on the face of the earth. Egypt, Persia, Greece, and Rome have practically gone out of existence, but India still remains, and, what is more, is a part of the British Empire. It is said that India is not a nation. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2363</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JYG</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Elliott</name>
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              <para>- A part of India is uncivilized. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2363</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
                <name role="display">Senator REID</name>
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              <para>- India is a huge country, with an enormous population. Millions of its people are intellectually superior, to those of many so-called civilized countries. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2364</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KPQ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">KINGSMILL, Walter</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Kingsmill</name>
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              <para>- What of the mental and moral stamina of the Indian people ? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2364</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
                <name role="display">Senator REID</name>
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              <para>- Their mental and moral stamina is comparable with that of any other race. The Hindus are the original Aryan race from which we sprung. If proof of that statement is required one has only to read the literature on the subject. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2364</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JZR</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">OGDEN, James</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Ogden</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- It is a debatable question. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2364</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <para>- Not at all. It is not doubted by those who have investigated the subject. The other day I read of an Indian who claimed American citizenship because he was of the Aryanrace, and belonged to the Brahmin caste, but his claim was disallowed. Those . who have studied the history of the races, and particularly of the Indian people, will not dispute the fact that the Hindus belong to the Aryan race, from which our  race has descended. The Mongolians belong to quite a different race; the Japanese, who are the last of that race, are descendants of the Chinese. It is because the Hindus belong to the Aryan race, from&#39; which the British race has descended, that Britain has been guided back, and is now in possession of India. The Empirecannot fulfil its mission until the Indian people are satisfied and the Empire itself is really one. If the Prime Minister recognises the importance of India to the Empire and to civilization, and acts accordingly, great benefits will be conferred upon Australia. He can, by using his influence, assist India to secure selfgovernment, and when that stage is reached India will be able to dominate Asia. Japanese aggression would then not be worthy of consideration, because India has 320.000,000 people against Japan&#39;s 70,000.000 or 80,000,000. The Hindus, except special castes, are not a fighting people, but the Mohammedans are. I cannot say exactly the number of Mohammedans in India. Surprise was expressed at the attitude adopted by Britain at the Lausanne Con- ference when the Turks were making trouble, but it was simply in consequence of the number of Mohammedans who are resident, in the British Empire. That was a factor which had to be considered by the Imperial authorities in negotiating with Kemal Pasha. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2364</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JYG</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Elliott</name>
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              <para>- Does the honorable senator think that the Indiansare a satisfied people? . Are there not sharp lines of distinction between them? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2364</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
                <name role="display">Senator REID</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Like us, they have their religious differences. Religious differences are not peculiar to India. We have them here. I can remember the orange and green disturbances of my boyhood, and how bricks and broken bottles were hurled by supporters of the different colours. India should be granted self-government, and in working out her own salvation should be prepared to pay the price of her liberty. These are matters which should be considered by the Imperial Conference. The British Commonwealth of Nations is the greatest force for peace in existence. The sooner we dispense with the idea of retaining India by force, the &#39;better. We can hold India only by the will of the Indian people. </para>
            </talk.start>
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                <page.no>2364</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
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              <para>- Do the majority of the people of India desire selfgovernment ? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2364</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
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              <para>- Yes. &#39;There are sufficient of the educated class in India to rule the country. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
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            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2364</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
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              <para>- Would the honorable senator demand an education test? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2364</page.no>
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              <para>- I should let the Indian people themselves determine the nature of the test. The British possessions in India are but a. small part of the Indian Empire. The ruling princes control twenty or thirty States that , are subject only to the British power. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2364</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
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              <para>- To whom would the honorable senator make them subject? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2364</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
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              <para>- They should be subject to the British Crown, but have the power of self-government. Owing to the influence of English education, the Indians are rapidly absorbing Western ideas. The late Secretary of State for India, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Montagu,</inline> who lost his seat- </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2364</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">KINGSMILL, Walter</name>
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              <para>- He caused much of the trouble. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2364</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- No; the names of Montagu and Hardinge will go down to history as two of the best friends India has ever had. I should also associate with those statesmen the name of Lord </para>
            </talk.start>
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          <para class="block">Chelmsford, formerly Governor of Queensland, who, after serving a term as Governor of New South &#34;Wales, was appointed Viceroy of India. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Montagu,</inline> reviewing the Indian situation, stated - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>I do not underrate the difficulties; nor do I overrate the possibilities. I remain confident of the future. I believe that Great Britain and India are each essential to the complete well-being of the other. I believe that their connexion can  be  strengthened by the acceptance of this .principle of partnership, if pursued with sincerity, with determination, and with patience. I cannot contemplate failure, for I do not believe that the subjection of one country to another, however benevolent, is the last word in international political science, and I feel confident that &#39;the successful help of Britons in the building of on Indian Nation  will  win a real and valuable crown for British effort in India. Success will mean success in the highest plane of empire building; failure would mean, if failure were thinkable, a real impoverishment of the ideals of the civilized world.. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">Those are wise words, and .they are deserving of our serious consideration. </para>
          <para>From the trade point of view, Canada is beginning to awaken to the importance of India, but, as Australia is much nearer to India than Canada, we have greater opportunities for developing an Indian trade, lt was pointed out by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Guthrie</inline> that, owing to the self-interest of some of our traders, we had lost over &#163;20,000 a year itf trade with India in certain tinned goods. When <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Sastri</inline> paid a visit to the Commonwealth recently, I approached him on the subject of trade between India and Australia. The people of that country are beginning to demand more than formerly for their labour, and, as a result of higher wages, the standard of living is increasing. India, therefore, provides an unlimited market for some of our goods. The following remarks by the Minister for Customs in Canada will show what the Dominion is doing in connexion with its Indian trade. The Minister stated to Parliament that while India imported $30,000 worth of goods annually from Canada before the war, she was importing $1,125,000 worth of goods annually after the war, and that this amount was expected to quadruple itself in the current year. The Minister went on to observe - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>The extent to which India will trade with Canada would very probably depend upon the treatment which the natives of. India received in this country. He .reminded Parliament that there Was a movement on foot in India for the adoption of a trade preference to States within the British Empire, and that one of the reports made on this subject recommended that  the  &#39; preference be made conditional on Indians being given equal political privileges in&#39; those Stales with the rest of the  population. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">The report referred to is that of the Indian Fiscal Commission, which, while generally disapproving of Imperial preference, recommended its adoption when India enjoyed responsible government, and only in respect of Dominions which treated Indian settlers on the same footing as their own nationals. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2365</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
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              <para>- Does Canada treat Indians more favorably than Australia does ? - </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2365</page.no>
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              <para>-In some cases it affords them a little better treatment than Australia, on the whole, does. Indians who came to Australia prior to Federation should enjoy all the privileges bf citizenship, and then they would in truth be treated as British subjects. To continue to disfranchise them is to be inconsistent with our claim that Australia is a Democracy. The Indians to whom I am ref erf ing are scattered throughout the Commonwealth. They are either in business Of they have settled on the land. They have their families here, they (obey our laws, and they pay taxes. There are only a few hundreds df them, and it would not hurt us to give them the franchise. At the same time it would please India a great deal, and it would help in a very real way to cement the bonds of Empire. If We do not give this consideration to the Indians in Australia, we cannot blame India if it retaliates and grants further preference to those countries which allow the full franchise to Indian subjects. We should make the Indians amongst us citizens in the full sense of the word, and thus show that there is some meaning in the word &#34; Empire.&#34; Some day India will demand this consideration at our hands, and we should not force it to wield the sword to obtain the treatment it deserves. We should  not  deal with iti people in such a way that it might some day desire to turn all the white . people out of India. There are hundreds of whites in that country, and they have all their interests there. One of the greatest advocates in India at the present day of selfgovernment for that part of t the Empire is a white man, who is now in London at the head of the delegation against the salt tax. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2366</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">KINGSMILL, Walter</name>
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              <para>- Keir Hardie was the first apostle. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <para>SenatorREID. - What Hardie said was more or less &#34;gallery stuff.&#34; He made many foolish remarks about India, . but when he went there he learned a great deal. I should advise the honorable senator to read the book on India written by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Ramsay</inline> Macdonald, Leader of the Labour party in Great Britain. It is one of the best publications on the subject. </para>
          <para>Another matter that isof the utmost importance both to the Empire and to humanity is the colour question, and it should be seriously considered at the Imperial Conference. The world is at present divided on the issue, and nobody knows how the -problem will be solved. What line is the British Empire to draw against the coloured races ? In Africa we have had the Kenya trouble. There are deputations in London at the present time, and Downing-street is getting out of its difficulty in the usual way by doubling back upon itself and shelving the question for the time being. Until these problems are settled, however, it is useless and illogical to talk about the glories of the Empire. We cannot expect to dominate all the coloured people within it and make them subject to all our whims. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2366</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
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              <para>- Would the honorable senator remove all the barriers? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2366</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- I do not desire to throw down the barriers, but every coloured race must have full selfgovernment, so that it may work out its own destiny. I do not wish to interfere with the White Australia policy in any way; but I approach this matter from an Empire point of view. </para>
            </talk.start>
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          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2366</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
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              <para>- The White Australia policy is involved. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2366</page.no>
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              <para>- I know it is, and the Empire and civilization are also involved. After all, what are white races by comparison with, humanity ? In Asia there are 900,000,000 people: in Europe, 500,000,000; in the Americas, 220,000,000 ; in Africa, 150,000,000 ; and in Australasia, 7,000,000. From an Empire point of view the colour problem, must be faced. I know that we shall shirk it as long as we can, and try to humbug ourselves into believing that it does not exist. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2366</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
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              <para>- It is insoluble. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2366</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- We cannot keep the Empire together if we say that anything is insoluble. Nothing is insoluble if we desire to be just and fair. It is because we want to take advantage of the coloured races, and to act unfairly towards them, that many things appear insoluble. I am a strong believer in the British Empire. I cannot picture in language what it means to me. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2366</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- Ifthe honorable senator&#39;s argument means anything, it means that we should pull down all colour barriers. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2366</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- It does not mean that. I. differ from <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Elliott</inline> on that, point. At the present time we arrogate to ourselves the power to oppress the coloured man. If the Indians or the Asiatics generally take it into their heads that they will not tolerate any more of that sort of thing from the Western nations, where shall we be landed? I &#39;do not. say that I can solve the problem. I know how difficult it is, but its- solution means the rise or downfall of the British Empire. Honorable senators may read the situation as they like, but the solution of that problem stands out as necessary for the future existence of this Commonwealth of nations. It must be solved, or there will be an end to the British Empire. I am anxious that the British Empire should continue, for the sake not only of the Empire, but of what the Anglo-Saxon race has given, and can still give, to the world. If we can bridge the difficulty of bringing East and. West together - and in spite of what Kipling has said, I believe it can be done. - we shall render a great service to humanity. I say the problem is not insoluble. One way to help towards the solution of it is to give India selfgovernment and allow her to work out her own salvation. Nothing tends so much to bring different peoples together as trade. Whatever may be said against the capitalistic system, it has done more than anything to civilize the world and bring the nations together. It may have done a lot of wrong, but it has served a purpose. Trade to-day binds the nations together. By trading with India we shall pave the way to a better. understanding. It is because I believe the problem is soluble, and because I believe we must solve it, that I bring this matter forward. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
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            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2367</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>-  Self-government for India would not solve the colour problem in Africa. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2367</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- No, but selfgovernment for India would do a lot. The British Government in. India is pulled this way and that by influences exerted on one side or the other. If India were a self-governed nation like Australia, it would speak for itself. Let any one interfore with an Australian outside Australia, and every one in Australia would be ready to defend that man&#39;s liberty as a citizen of Australia. We would not be Australians if we were not prepared to do that. One of the duties of the Indian Government would be to look after Indians, and, that being so, the problem would have to be solved in a way that would be satisfactory to both sides. As long as the Indians are within the Empire, the problem can be solved by diplomacy, by the interchange of ideas; but if we drive them out, and regard Asia as a territory apart, we shall do the worst thing possible for the future advancement of the human race. I look upon India as a God-sent gift - if I may so express myself without being misunderstood - to the British Empire, because that country, with its intellect, its old civilization, and its&#39; outlook upon life when blended with ours&#34;, would make the&#39; British Empire one of the greatest factors in the civilization of the world. I am not painting any fancy picture ; to me it is a living reality, and I want to see the gap bridged. Japan is growing in power and influence, and it is no use our shutting our eyes to the fact that that nation represents the only danger &#39;that Australia has to face from the East. No other nation is likely to interfere with us. If India had selfgovernment she &#39; would dominate Asia, and would remove our dread of Japan. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2367</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
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              <para>-  Does the honorable senator think that India would fight Japan to preserve the White Australia policy? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2367</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- I do not think we shall ever go to war with Japan on the question of a White Australia. When we do go to war with Japan other things besides the White Australia policy will be at issue. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>The Prime Minister, and many other people, have stated that if Britain is at war, Australia is also at war, because we are part of the British Empire. </para>
          <para class="block">Members of the Opposition pooh-pooh that idea. If any part of the Empire is at war it is nonsense for honorable senators opposite to say that every other part of it is not also at  Avar. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2367</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KPQ</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">KINGSMILL, Walter</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Kingsmill</name>
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              <para>-  It is not &#34; nonsense.&#34; It is what they believe! </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2367</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
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              <para>- I do not agree that they believe it. They are humbugging their followers. They know better than to believe such a thing. If any part of the Empire is at war, Australia is obviously . open to attack by the enemy. If India had self-government as part of the Empire, she would naturally take steps to protect that to which she belongs. As a matter of common sense, for our safety, and in justice to the people of India, we should urge the Prime Minister to advocate self-government for that part of the Empire. Some honorable senators have limited views about India. I have given them much up-to-date information. India has been undergoing mighty changes. Under British influence and education she has made great headway. The old-fashioned ideas about India are gone. If honorable senators want to know anything about India I would advise them not to go to the crusted Anglo-Indian officials, whose opinions are stereotyped and limited. They should take the broader view of the outsider and look at the problem from an Empire stand-point. -If they will do so they will come to the conclusion that India has grown and developed to such an extent that she is capable of carrying on her own government in her own way.  Her  people are intensely loyal. I try to keep . in touch with Indian affairs, and am fairly well posted regarding th em . There is a big movement at the present time to obtain full constitutional government, and I have received a request from India to represent that movement in Australia. <inline font-style="italic">&#91;Extension of time granted.&#93;</inline> Tie Indian elections will be held next October. The present Assembly will be dissolved, and the members will appeal to the people for re-election on certain conditions. One. condition will be that every member will pledge himself, if elected to Parliament, to attend a conference next year to draft a Constitution, on similar lines to the Australian Constitution, for presentation to the Imperial Government. Representatives have been appointed throughout the British Dominions, notably in England, Canada, and the United States of America. In Australia I  shall do my best to start organizations to work along constitutional lines in assisting the movement. When I say that Indians are loyal, I speak for the people as . a whole. There are sections which are not loyal. Much of the so-called disloyalty emanated from the Mohammedans, and the misled Gandhi, non-co-operators, and was owing to the attempt made by Great Britain to drive Turkey out of what they regarded as the sacred cities. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2368</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K8P</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">THOMPSON, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Thompson</name>
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              <para>- How many Mohammedans are there- in India? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2368</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
                <name role="display">Senator REID</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Millions. They are a&#39; very big force. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2368</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K8P</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">THOMPSON, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Thompson</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Are they aggressive people? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2368</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
                <name role="display">Senator REID</name>
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              <para>- Very aggressive, in every way. The Mohammedans in India represent a problem which the Empire must solve, and it is because of their presence in that country that I strongly urge that self-government should be granted. India herself would then be able to deal with the Mohammedan problem. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2368</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K8P</name.id>
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                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">THOMPSON, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Thompson</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- What proportion of the population is fit for the franchise? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2368</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
                <name role="display">Senator REID</name>
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              <para>- I do not know, but the educated people of India would draft the Constitution. There are educated Indians who are more capable of looking after India than are . the British. It is not a question of shutting out the white people. The Anglo-Indians, who are established there with all their interests, are part of India. There may be a big conflagration working up, and it may break out in a few years. Any one who has closely studied India can see it coming, and unless something is done to check it it may burst into flame. I would rather that the Indian people, with Britain behind them, dealt with the problem, than that Britain, with India subject to it, dominatedthe country. I have more hope now than I have ever had of its being settled, because of the outlook of the British Labour party. That party has sane views regarding the Empire, and it is a coming force. Working in co-operation with the Liberals it will do more to consolidate the Empire than any force which has hitherto existed. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2368</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JYG</name.id>
              <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
              <name role="display">Senator ELLIOTT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>.- It was only after a good deal of hesitation that I made up my mind to speak on this subject. We are told that &#34; in the multitude of counsellors there is safety &#34;; but having perused the debates that have taken place in another Chamber, and listened to the speeches of honorable senators, I fear that the Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce)</inline> will have a very confused idea of what the people of Australia desire. On reflection, I decided that there was one matter in regard to which I couldsupply the Prime Minister with a single ray of light to enable him to dispel the Cimmerian darkness, or the fog caused by the oratory that has emanated from honorable members. I desire to address the Senate on the subject of defence, which promises to be of paramount importance at the Conference. The one thing which clearly emerged from the debate on the Air Defence Bill in another place, and on the Defence Bill last session, was that the Australian people as a whole will have nothing to do with the Imperial Army Act, as such, nor will they allow the provisions of that Act to apply to Australian soldiers, however willing they might be to adopt its main provisions if embodied in an Act of local origin. It seems to be a simple matter for the Australian Parliament to enact that whereever Australian soldiers may be serving they shall be governed by the Defence Act of Australia. &#34;Unfortunately the matter cannot be disposed of so simply, on account of the fact that this is not a sovereign Legislature in the same sense as is the Imperial Parliament, but a dependent Legislature. Our legislative powers are limited to. the Commonwealth of Australia and its territorial waters. Section 5 of the Constitution Act provides - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>This Act, and all laws made by the Parliament of the Commonwealth under the Constitution, shall be binding on the courts, judges and people of every State, and of every part of the Commonwealth, notwithstanding anything in the laws of any State ; and the laws of the Commonwealth shall be in force on all British ships, the Queen&#39;s ships of war excepted, whose first port of clearance and whose port of destination are in the Commonwealth. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">Section 51 sets out our powers. It states - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make .laws for the peace, order and good government of the Commonwealth with respect to - </para>
            <list type="lowerroman">
              <item label="(vi)">
                <para>The naval and military defence of the Commonwealth and of the several States, and the control of the forces, to execute and maintain the laws of the Commonwealth. </para>
              </item>
            </list>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">I quote those provisions to show the difficulty of our position in regard to defence. At present, if we will have our men governed only by our own laws we must necessarily confine their operations to Australia and its territorial waters. Outside those limits, as the law exists at present, they must come under the operation of the Imperial Army Act, or be subject to no law at all. As a practical proposition it would be absurd to contend that we should confine the operations of our forces to Australia and its territorial waters. Would any man agree to fight under conditions which tied him down to a definite area, leaving his opponent absolute freedom in regard to the area in which he should operate, making it possible for him to retire when hard pressed, recruit at leisure, and continue- the fight another day ? &#39;Surely if we are to wage war, we must be at liberty to follow up an enemy when we have him on the run, and chase him right home. The greatest leaders of armies in the world have always believed in the principle that it is necessary to attack if victory is to be gained. How can we attack if we are to be tied down to Australia and its territorial waters? It Would mean the breaking off of an engagement immediately our operations carried us outside the 3-mile limit. As a preliminary, therefore, it is essential that our legislative powers be enlarged by the Imperial Government, so that our laws may be made to apply to our armies wherever they may be. The Imperial Parliament could pass a short, simple Act, giving to the Commonwealth power to make such an enactment. That could be followed by the passage of an Australian Army Act, embodying so much of the provisions of the Imperial Army Act as we thought fit. </para>
          <para>A second question which is of very great interest is the exercise of command and jurisdiction by British officers over our troops in the field. I trust that there is no one in Parliament, or out of it, who doubts my loyalty to the King, or my desire that Australia shall remain, for all time, part of the British Empire; but I say deliberately that , the time has arrived for Australia to stipulate that, as a condition for its co-operation in Empire wars, its men shall be commanded by their own officers exclusively, and that British officers shall exercise no jurisdiction whatever over them. Unless action is taken in that direction some regrettable incident will ultimately arise that may gravely embarrass the relations existing between the Commonwealth and Great Britain. The question of our soldiers being under Imperial jurisdiction has no relation to their co-operation with the British troopsin the field. The whole of the British Army, from General Haig downwards, was under the direction of FieldMarshal Foch, but the French Military Code - or whatever the law was under which the French armies functioned - was never intended to be applied, and never was made applicable in any way, to . any part of the British Army or to the American Army either. Each of the Allies had its separate, complete, and distinct system. That, however, did not prevent their co-operating to the absolute limit in the field. There would, therefore, be nothing in this proposal which would prevent the closest cooperation between an Australian unit and the British forces. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2369</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">FOLL, Hattil</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Foll</name>
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              <para>-The honorable senator does not think that a force so controlled would be in any way hampered in its operations ? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2369</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JYG</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
                <name role="display">Senator ELLIOTT</name>
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              <para>- Not at all. The allied armies on the Western Front worked loyally together under FieldMarshal Foch, each under its separate Army Act. The difficulty for which I am attempting to provide will tend to grow more acute with the passage of time. At the present time Australia is very closely connected with Britain and with British feeling. There are in Australia very few people whose parents or grand-parents were not born in Britain. As time goes on, we shall draw more and more away from Great Britain in our family connexions, and consequently we shall feel more acutely any irritant that may be applied to us, consciously or unconsciously, by British officers. The following passage appears in H. S. Gullett&#39;s <inline font-style="italic">The Australian Imperial Force in Sinai and Palestine,</inline> which was recently published, in relation to a serious mutiny which occurred in Palestine :  - </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <quote>
            <para>The affair arose out of the simple fact that British regular officers entrusted with Australian commands inEgypt and Palestine, with a few notable exceptions, too often failed to grasp the vital fact that the narrow traditional methods of handlingthe soldiers of England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales are not by any absolute law the way to handle young men of the Dominions. There is in the young British people overseas a genius, strong and distinctive, -which must be considered in war as in peace. </para>
          </quote>
          <para>That passage illustrates my contention. Fortunately, no very serious results arose from this incident, because, at that time, the war was over. But had a resumption of hostilities been necessary the results might have been very serious indeed. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2370</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXV</name.id>
                <electorate>SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
                <party>ALP; NAT from 1917</party>
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                <name role="metadata">NEWLANDS, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator NEWLANDS</name>
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              <para>- It would not have happened had the men not been idle. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <para>SenatorELLIOTT. - It had been gathering force right through the campaign, and an outbreak was imminent. Our men believed that they were unjustly treated by Imperial officers. When any trouble with the Arabs arose the word of the native was taken by the British officer in preference to the word of the Australian, and they despaired of having justice meted out to them. To illustrate the same kind of thing, &#39;I quote the following passage from <inline font-style="italic">The Fortieth,</inline> a book written by Captain F. C. Green, an officer of the House of Representatives: - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>We have often beentold that we werewonderful soldiers, but that our discipline was hopeless; in fact, this &#39;has been so often . impressed on us that a reply to the libel is necessary. The Australian, is unconventional and surrounded by others, whose &#34; josses &#34; are tradition, and convention, he is proud of it. He realizes the value of true discipline, but does not regard saluting, heel-clicking, and other frills as a necessary part of discipline.&#39; He knowshe is regarded as undisciplined, and in a &#34; leg-pulling &#34; way encourages the idea. Hence, some staff&#39; officer, on his way to his job at the war . office of a morning, fails to receive salultes from the casual Australians on leave from the firing-line. He, therefore, calls his friends to witness the fact that the Australians are undisciplined. A few Australians get into touchwith a town major of a town wellback, from the line. They omit to callhim &#39;&#39;.sir.&#34; and forget to remove the cigarette from their lips while addressing him. He is horror-struck. They do not intend it offensively, and they are paying him. a delicate compliment by suspecting that he is a reasonable bloke.&#34; and anyhow they do not pome from a country where the labourer touches his hat to the squire, and it requires much training and concentrationof thought always to remember these points of etiquette. But the Australian discipline, when ho is near the enemy,, is a different thing, and that is the discipline he is proud of - the discipline that matters. In action it has stood the greatest test scores of times - the discipline which, under fire and &#39;against heavy odds, keeps a battalion still a fighting force. The theory that the Australian Army is undisciplined has &#39;been put forward , so often that it is generally believed;but only by thorn who have never seenthem inthe line or in action. It is alibel on the Australian Army which is bitterly resented. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">As we draw away from Britain that resentment will be intensified. We ought, if we value the solidarity and unity of the Empire, to take early measures to remove any possibility of this resentment becoming acute. There is another . matter that deserves serious attention. Any officer having control of our troops and the power of placing their lives in desperate hazard should be capable of being held to account before our Parliament and our people. That is impossible in the case of a British Commander. I desire to refer particularly to the battle of Fleurbaix, where our casualties were appallingly heavy. According to Captain Ellis, who compiled the history of that engagement, the total casualties from noon, 19th July, to noon, 20th July, were 178 officers and 5,335 other ranks. The chief units to suffer were :  - </para>
          <para class="block">
            <graphic href="104332192308094_17_0.jpg" />
          </para>
          <para class="block">The infantry battalions that suffered most heavily were the 60th, the 32nd, and the 59th, with 757, 718, and 695 casualties respectively. The 53rd, 31st, and 54th Battalions also lost more than half of their strength, and it is doubtful if any British division in the whole war suffered equally heavy losses in the same  space of time. That attack was made for reasons which I have never been able to positively discover. It was an- attack on a position in the enemy line of impregnable strength. It was made after four other attacks by the flower of the British Army had failed, and followed the point-blank refusal by the Guards Division to tackle it-. The position was one of enormous strength - a ridge crowned by a small village with a church prominently situated in the centre. The whole of the enemies&#39; trenches and the enemies&#39; ridge curved, towards us in a wide arc. Our position, on the other hand, was absolutely flat ground exposed to the full observation of the enemy. The church on the hill-top, as I found after the war by personal inspection, had been fitted from floor to ceiling with a tiny staircase leading to a loophole, from whichan. observer looked out with a telescope over our whole position in perfect safety, and from him telephones ran to artillery posts and Headquarters. A more desperate position, to attack it is hard to imagine. Certainly if the ridge had been captured the enemy would have been in a bad condition, as the line to Lille, which was of vital importance, would have been opened. Therefore, the position was always strongly held. The idea, as I heard it, was that we should attack the position on the chance of compelling the enemy to withdraw some portion of his reserves to that neighbourhood and give our men a chance of succeeding at the Battle of Pozieres; which was planned to commence a few days later, and which actually took place. It is legitimate tactics in war to endeavour to mislead the enemy, but it is bad generalship to commit troops in small numbers to attack a position when from the outset they are doomed to failure, and when there is not the slightest hope of making an impression on the enemy. </para>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2371</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KLS</name.id>
              <electorate>QUEENSLAND</electorate>
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              <name role="metadata">GIVENS, Thomas</name>
              <name role="display">The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hoc T Givens</name>
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            <para>- I should like to know how the honorable senator intends to connect his remarks on war operations with the subject under discussion. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2371</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
                <name role="display">Senator ELLIOTT</name>
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              <para>- The question of defence will be dealt with at the Imperial Conference. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2371</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">DUNCAN, Walter</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Duncan</name>
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              <para>- And the honorable senator wants the Australian troops to be commanded at all times by Australians. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2371</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
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              <para>- Yes, whenever that is possible when we are closely cooperating with British forces. My idea is that the Prime Minister should specially request the Imperial Parliament to give us increased powers over our troops so that we could &#39; make our laws apply to them wherever they might be. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>SenatorNeedham. - Surely we have not to ask the Imperial Parliament to give us this power over our own Eorces? </para>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2371</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
                <name role="display">Senator ELLIOTT</name>
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              <para>- The section of the Constitution which I quoted shows clearly that our legislative powers are limited to within the Commonwealth and 3 miles of our coast-line. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2371</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- Does the honorable senator mean to say that we must go cap in hand to the British Government and ask for authority to control our own troops ? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2371</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
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              <para>- Outside Australia, yes. I made it quite clear inmy opening address that while our troops are within Australia and within the 3-mile limit, we have absolute control over them, but the moment they cross the 3-mile line they mustcome under the provisions of the British Army Act. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2371</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- We can control them. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2371</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
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              <para>- Under the Constitution we have not that power. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2371</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">O&#39;LOGHLIN, James</name>
                <name role="display">Senator O&#39;Loghlin</name>
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              <para>- We have the power to say whether we will consent to our troops being sent anywhere. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2371</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- I can assure the honorable senator that the position is otherwise. It has been determined in our Courts that the Constitution does not give us this authority over our troops beyond territorial waters, and I want to establish the position as my honorable friends contend it is now. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2371</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- We have the power to say whether they shall go or not. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2371</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JYG</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
                <name role="display">Senator ELLIOTT</name>
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              <para>- That is quite true. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2371</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JZC</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">O&#39;LOGHLIN, James</name>
                <name role="display">Senator O&#39;Loghlin</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- And on what conditions. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2371</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JYG</name.id>
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
                <name role="display">Senator ELLIOTT</name>
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              <para>- Yes. But we should put the matter quite in order, and approach the British Government with a request that the British Parliament pass a short Act conferring on our Parliament authority which, I contend, we ought to have, to make our Defence Act applicable to Australian troops wherever they may go. We should not wait until a war starts and then begin bargaining. We should ask the Imperial Government now to confer this power upon us. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2371</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- But why ask the British Government? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2371</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
                <name role="display">Senator ELLIOTT</name>
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              <para>- Because the delegated powers contained in our Constitution are defective to the extent I have mentioned. </para>
            </talk.start>
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                <page.no>2371</page.no>
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              <para>- Unless the British authorities conform to our conditions our men need not go at any time. </para>
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                <page.no>2371</page.no>
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              <para>- But why should we wait until another war starts? It is better in time of peace, like the present, to request the British Government to remove from the Constitution a defect which we never contemplated. Our experience in the war has taught us that we should have this authority, and </para>
            </talk.start>
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          <para>We might verywell ask the British Government to give us this extended power. </para>
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                <page.no>2372</page.no>
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              <para>- We should amend our&#39; Own Constitution. </para>
            </talk.start>
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                <page.no>2372</page.no>
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              <para>- Well,I shall say no more on that subject. If the honorable senator gets an opinion from <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Brennan,</inline> a member of his own party, I am confident that my view will be upheld. </para>
            </talk.start>
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                <page.no>2372</page.no>
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              <para>- There is no need for&#39; legal opinion on the subject: Surely we are masters of our own household. </para>
            </talk.start>
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                <page.no>2372</page.no>
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              <para>- While we are in our own household, yes; but not when we are beyond our territorial limits. </para>
            </talk.start>
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                <page.no>2372</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
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              <para>- We need not send our troops abroad unless we like. </para>
            </talk.start>
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                <page.no>2372</page.no>
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              <para>- But if we decided to send them Outside the 3-mile limit, under existing conditions we should have no control over them. </para>
            </talk.start>
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                <page.no>2372</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">HOARE, Albert</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Hoare</name>
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              <para>- We should amend our own Constitution to give us that authority. </para>
            </talk.start>
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                <page.no>2372</page.no>
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              <para>- We-may amend the Constitution in so far as its application within Australia is concerned, but We cannot make our laws applybeyond the 3-mile territorial limit. We might very well ask the British Parliament to supplement our existing authority in the way I have Suggested, in order that while our troops may be in hearty co-operation with other British troops in Empire defence, they shall be under the control of our own officers. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>I wish, however, to resume my remarks Concerning the appalling slaughter of our men at the battle of Fleurbaix. A battalion of which I was particularly proud, the 60th, was one of the finest ever sent from Australia. That battalion went into action with twenty officers and 970 men of other ranks, and the following morning I had only one officer, who was wounded, and 1 06 men. </para>
          <interjection>
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                <page.no>2372</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">THOMPSON, William</name>
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              <para>- Was an Australian officer responsible for that <inline font-style="italic">debacle?</inline></para>
            </talk.start>
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                <page.no>2372</page.no>
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              <para>- No. We received orders from general head-quarters. The division was detached from Genera&#93; Godley&#39;s command, and was placed under a special Command detailed from the Im- perial General Staff. During the pre parations for battle one of the staff came down to see me. He accompanied me right along our front line, inspected my orders, and approved them. I had studied the question of trench to trench mortar, and had in my pocket a pamphlet issued by the French on the subject. This officer, asI have said, approved of my orders, and while we were going back to headquarters I dismissed my staff officer in order that no one should overhear what Iwas&#39; about to say. Drawing this officer into a corner of the trench, I said to him, &#34; You have been here two years and I have been here ten days.If the particulars in this pamphlet are true, it seems to me that we cannot hope to succeed. Is my judgment correct?&#34; He replied, &#34; If you put it that way, it will be a bloody holocaust.&#34; Honorable senators can imagine my feelings when I realized that many of&#39; those who were going into action were my personal friends. We have never been able to obtain1 a satisfactory explanation. General McCay, who was the Australian commander, believes that many diggers are of the opinion, that he was responsible&#39; for Ordering that attack. He has been caused great sorrow^ which he has borne loyally and silently. To show that this is not an isolated case, I refer* honorable senators to Captain Ellis&#39;s book, which confirms what I have said. I shall, now quote from General <inline font-weight="bold">Sir John</inline> Monash&#39;s publication, <inline font-style="italic">Australian Victories in France,</inline> in which he deals with the attack on the 8th and 9th August, 1918, which was wonderfully organized. He says - </para>
            </talk.start>
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          <quote>
            <para>But, so far, I have written of the infantry plan Only; and much remains to be told of the simultaneous action designed to be taken by all the other arms, which rendered possible and emphasized the success of the infantry. No one can rival me in my admiration for the transcendent military virtues of the Australian infantryman, for his bravery, his battle discipline, his absolute reliability, his individual resource, his initiative, and endurance. But I had formed the theory that the true <inline font-style="italic">r&#244;le</inline> of the infantry was not to expend itself upon heroic physical effort, nor to wither away under merciless machine-gun fire, nor to impale itself on hostile bayonets, nor to tear itself to pieces in hostile entanglements - (I am thinking of Pozieres and Stormy Trench&#39; and Bullecourt, and Other bloody fields)- but, on the contrary, to advance under the maximum possible protection of the maximum possible array of mechanical resources, in the form of guns, tanks, mortars, and aeroplanes; to advance with as little impediment as possible; to be relieved as far as possible of the obligation to fight their way forward; to march  resolutely, regardless of the din and tumult of battle, to the appointed goal ; and there to hold and defend the territory gained ; and to gather in the form of prisoners, guns, and stores, the fruits of victory. </para>
            <para>It is my purpose, therefore, to emphasize particularly the extent to which this theory was realized in the battle under review, by the achievement of a great and decisive victory at a trifling cost. That result was due primarily to the very ample resources in mechanical aids which the foresight and confidenceof the Fourth Army Commander, General Rawlinson, intrusted to me; but it was due partly, also, to the manner in which those resources were employed. And that is why I shall attempt to describe the remainder of the Corps plan. </para>
            <para class="block">Many  of the battles referred to  represent  so-called  victories  to  Australians,  but <inline font-weight="bold">Sir John</inline> Monash and many others  do  not  so regard them. An  explanation  is due to the people of  Australia regarding  the fruitless  slaughter  of our  Own  men.  I  shall now  quote  from a British book entitled <inline font-style="italic">At the Supreme War Council, by</inline> Captain Peter E. Wright, who shows how such thingsmay happen. He says- </para>
            <para class="block">General Staffs, in times of modern war, when the nation becomes an army, are the most powerful organisms in the State, for almost every one must obey them, and they tend to supersede the State itself. Through their huge patronage they lay hands on the legislature and the press. But above all, public opinion is theirs to shape it as they please; for that great two-handed engine of deception, the censorship which conceals the truth, and propaganda which creates the false is in their hands. This machine, created originally for one purpose, to deceive the enemy, had come, perhaps unavoidably, to be used for deceiving everybody, soldiers and civilians. Keeping up the morale, in the jargon of thewar, is the purpose of this second deception, as if men who give their lives with such generosity, without hesitation, needed lies as a further inducement to do so. It is an easy and efficient engine to work,  for  people are left far more uninstructed,. and are far more misled by. newspapers in our enlightened period, than ever they were by rumour in the past, before the spread of education had made it possible to induce people to believe anything by printing it. Germans were sure half London was- burnt and in ashes; and we have never heard of German victories, like Pieknllen, when they took as many as 100,000 Russian prisoners. </para>
            <para>But falsehood, however indispensable (and perhaps in this case it is unavoidable), exacts its price; and here it recoils in an unexpected direction. Generals can have great reputations which are entirely artificial. They do not have to win victories or campaigns; the Subject press bureau and the tame herd of special correspondents or special press agents do it for them. </para>
          </quote>
          <para>It  is in the High Command, and not in the line, that the art of camouflage is most practised, and reaches to highest flights. All chiefs everywhere are now kept painted, by the busy work of numberless publicists, so as to be mistaken for Napoleons - at  a  distance. Canny Scots <inline font-style="italic">toon</inline> discover that having the brother of the editor of the leading newspaper of the majority party of the legislature as a chaplain-general is  a  greater piece of luck than breaking the German line, and a long visit from an influential newspaper proprietor preferable to a good plan of operations. Criticism and doubt becomes scandalous or illegal outside the armies, and (quite rightly) indiscipline and insubordination within them. It ceases to be necessary for Generals to win even wars; they will be almost as victorious if they lose them. This is not fanciful, for almost the whole German people believe Hindenburg unvanquished and invincible; they believe he never was defeated, but broke off the fight and submitted because Germany&#39;s allies deserted her. In spite of the Armistice, he is just as much  a  conqueror to-day as when his authority extended from Dunkirk to Kieff; and before we deride them as dupes, it is as well to remember that  a  great many sensible people here aresure that the retreat of the Fifth Army in March, 1918, was an ingenious manoeuvre, and most people consider that what the Germans call the Bloodbath <inline font-style="italic">(dasBlutbad)</inline> of the Somme was an Allied triumph, though, being almost twice as strong as the Germans, they could only gain a few miles of ground at stupendous cost. Joffre, whose mistakes in the first weeks of the war nearly lost it, remains seated in the hearts of the&#34; French as  a  national hero, however much commissions of inquiry may expose him. No doubt if Haig had been driven into the sea in April, 1918, as seemed likely, he would have remained just as immortally glorious, and some one else would have been to blame. A new doctrine has come to prevail that Commanders-in-Chief can do no wrong and are not responsible. </para>
          <para pgwide="yes">Statesmen, of course, know the truth. Any one in the room at the Supreme War Council who knew these heroes remote from their godlike state, bright pomp of swarming obsequious staff officers, millionaire A.D.C.&#39;s, and attendant major-generals, motors and mounted Orderlies, secretaries, and cooks, with the fountains of official eulogy playing on them in ceaseless glittering streams, could measure their real stature, in all its naked and tragic mediocrity; naked, . because the working of their confused, slow, and narrow minds revealed itself without chance of concealment in those keen debates with masterly heads like Sonnino or Foch; and tragic, because these incapables and intriguers, thus decorated and exalted, disposed haphazard of all those brilliant young generations that were being mowed in swathes by the German scythe </para>
          <para>It becomes almost impossible to- displace these Napoleons, whatever their incompetence, because of the enormous public support created by hiding or glossing failure, and exaggerating or inventing success. </para>
          <para>The <inline font-weight="bold">PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon.</inline></para>
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              <para>Givens).- This may be very interesting, but it has nothing whatever to do with the subject-matter under discussion. </para>
            </item>
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                <page.no>2374</page.no>
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              <para>- I am merely impressing upon the Senate the necessity of removing our Army from the control of the British staff.: </para>
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        <speech>
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              <page.no>2374</page.no>
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            <para>- I have allowed the honorable senator considerable latitude, but a discussion on army tactics is quite irrelevant. </para>
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                <page.no>2374</page.no>
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              <para>- I shall obey your ruling, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. President,</inline> but I submit that it has a direct bearing on the question which we arc discussing. What control can we exercise over the generals in command unless they are our own officers? We have seen the late Defence Minister deliberately upholding the most arbitrary exercise of power by the generals in command. That might not be so disastrous if, when the war was over, they could be called to account for any unlawful exercise of authority. But it becomes alarming when we commit the command of our troops to men over whom we have no control, and with whom we have no intimate connexion. </para>
            </talk.start>
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          <para>Subject tothe limitations which I have indicated, I am in accord with the Prime Minister&#39;s dictum, that if the Empire becomes involved in war, we arc in with her, whether we like it or not, right up to the hilt. That does not involve, as some honorable senators opposite appear to think, that we should necessarily have to send troops to take part in every skirmish within the Empire. No one would expect that, but when the Empire was involved in what might well be a life and death struggle, &#39; we could, not afford, neither would we wish, to stand aside. We have in our midst one of the greatest soldiers of the present day; one concerning whose genius in more than, one fieldI have never heard any one express even the shadow of a doubt. I refer to General <inline font-weight="bold">Sir John</inline> Monash. I venture to suggest to the Prime Minister that, before embarking, he should obtain the views of General <inline font-weight="bold">Sir John</inline> Monash upon this great problem of Empire Defence. I also would support a proposal that General <inline font-weight="bold">Sir John</inline> Monash should accompany him to the seat of Empire to aid - and I believe the aid would be welcomed - the officers upon whom the statesmen of Great Britain will rely at this Conference: I believe, too, that no voice in Australia would criticise a decision to call him into consultation in this great problem. Further, I would suggest to the Prime Minister that, on his return to this country, he might well avail himself of the wonderful powers of organization possessed by <inline font-weight="bold">Sir John</inline> Monash in carrying into effect whatever scheme is decided upon. </para>
          <continue>
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                <page.no>2374</page.no>
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              <para>- The agenda-papers of the Imperial and Economic Conferences are under discussion, but the honorable senator is debating a situation which may arise after those Conferences have terminated. No one knows what the outcome of the Conferenceswill be. The honorable senator will not be in order in suggesting what should be done in Australia after the Prime Minister returns. </para>
            </talk.start>
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                <page.no>2374</page.no>
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              <para>- I think, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. President,</inline> you have very properly called me to order in this instance, although on a previous occasion- </para>
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                <page.no>2374</page.no>
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              <para>- Order! The honorable senator may not discuss my ruling. He did not dissent from my ruling at the time,, and he therefore cannot do so now. </para>
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                <page.no>2374</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- I am not an alarmist. I fail to see any clear indication of an intention by Japan, or any other Power, to attack us. Before the last conflict, I thought there was a possibility of Germany and Japan joining forces, but that is now impossible. From whatever point attack may come, a Naval Base at Singapore is of enormous strategic value, and its fortification and garrisoning by the Empire is the most economic way of defending Australia against the possible danger of war. Let the Opposition consider what would be&#34; our position in Australia if the fears expressed by some were well grounded, and we were attacked. Are we to risk the good fortune of coming through? Even supposing that the enormous military naval expenditure in Japan, amounting to 50 per cent. of the revenue of that country, isregarded as just a happy way of providing for the unemployed, we must not forget - </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <quote>
            <para>How oft the sight of means to do ill deeds </para>
            <para>Makes ill deeds done ! </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">Having accumulated ahugh defence force, the people of Japan might determine to make use of it. That country might be pressed by famine or some other motive to seek an outlet for its surplus population in this sunny land of ours. What  then would be Australia&#39;s position. If wesaw a number of children making a huge bonfire of inflammable material next door in the yard, although we realized that the motive was innocent enough, it would be just as well to damp a few bags in case some of the sparks flew over the fence. I do not ask honorable senators to embark upon a mad expenditure on armaments, but simply to provide reasonable means of defending our own shores. </para>
          <interjection>
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              <talker>
                <page.no>2375</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXV</name.id>
                <electorate>SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
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              <para>-  Should we not have naval bases in Australia? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
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              <talker>
                <page.no>2375</page.no>
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              <para>- No doubt they will come. We have local submarines and aeroplanes, but our first duty is to agree to a great Imperial scheme. I have on many occasions stressed the point that it is useless to provide armies, submarines, and aeroplanes unless we have the munitions for them. The very, foundation of defence in Australia is an adequate supply of munitions. For that purpose we need, in the first place, a good supply of sulphur or sulphuric acid, and I regret that the Government have imposed a duty on sulphur. </para>
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                <page.no>2375</page.no>
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                <name role="display">The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon T Givens</name>
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              <para>-  Order! That matter has nothing to do with the Imperial Conference. I do not question its importance, but any action that Parliament might take regarding the manufacture of sulphur could have no bearing whatever upon the Imperial Conference. </para>
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                <page.no>2375</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- The problem &#39; of defence will, I think, bo the paramount one at the Conference, and I hope that the views I have expressed will in some small way assist the Prime Minister. </para>
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        </speech>
        <speech>
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            <talker>
              <page.no>2375</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
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              <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
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              <name role="metadata">O&#39;LOGHLIN, James</name>
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            <para>. - I quite agree with the points advanced by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Elliott</inline> as to the desirability of Australian soldiers serving under Australian officers and under Australian control. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2375</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
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              <para>-  And Australian laws. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2375</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">O&#39;LOGHLIN, James</name>
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              <para>- Yes. It was fully demonstrated during the war that the more that was recognised the more efficient were the results, because British officers did not understand Australian soldiers, and the latter did not get on well with British officers. There is no need for an Imperial Act to effect the arrangement I have mentioned, because Australia has full powers of selfgovernment in that respect. We can determine the conditions under which we send any troops beyond the shores of the Commonwealth. </para>
            </talk.start>
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          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2375</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">THOMPSON, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Thompson</name>
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              <para>-  When a force leaves these shores it is under the protection of the Navy, and, therefore, under naval discipline. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2375</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">O&#39;LOGHLIN, James</name>
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              <para>- The Nationalist Government has been trying to make Australia subject to an Imperial Act, both as regards military defence and air defence. But it has found Australian sentiment too strong. Although we are invited by the Government to discuss the agenda-paper of the Imperial Conference, good care has been taken that the voice of Australia shall not be heard through its representatives in Parliament while that Conference is being held. Parliament is to be closed until the Prime Minister returns and tells us what has happened. The Conference is to meet in secret, but we shall have some little information, carefully edited, no doubt, from day to day, through the press, or we shall have at any rate some inkling of the proceedings. If the British and other Dominion Parliaments are in session at the time, and I think some of them will be, they will be able to discuss the decisions of the Conference. But the Commonwealth Parliament is not to be heard. The Prime Minister has certainly been perfectly frank in the matter. He has stated that Parliament is to be closed while the Conference is sitting, because he does not desire to hear any criticism that might embarrass him. </para>
            </talk.start>
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          <para>He says, in effect - </para>
          <para>I  am <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Oracle,</inline></para>
          <para>And when  I  ope my lips  let  no dog bark! </para>
          <para class="block">The whole question of our relations with the Empire is opened up by the agendapaper of the Conference. I do not accept the ideas put forward that Australia has been a weakly infant and has been nursed  by the Mother Country, who, like a fairy godmother, has been showering blessings and benefits upon it. Some people would have us believe that even now Australia is merely a toddling infant, hanging to its mother&#39;s apron strings, and unable to stand on its own feet. I point out that Australia has had no assistance or protection, from the Mother </para>
          <para class="block">Country in the development of its vast spaces. We have never required assistance, although, no doubt, had it been necessary, such assistance would have been forthcoming. The development and progress of Australia has been brought about by the efforts of its hardy pioneers. We owe this much to the Mother Country: that it sent us the best of its stock. Australia has had to fight for self-government; it has not been freely offered to. us. The foundation of selfgovernment for the whole of the Dominions was laid by a rebellion in Canada in 1838. Canada was then regarded as disloyal. That rebellion was suppressed, but the late Lord Durham had the foresight to furnish a report - and the British statesmen had the good sense to adopt it- that resulted in the solution of the difficulty, and Canada was granted self-government. British statesmen also had a lesson, from the fight of the American colonies for independence, and the South &#39; American colonies&#39; revolt against Spain. History shows that it is impossible to withhold self-government from people of an intelligent distant dominion. If a community of between 5,000,000 and 6,000,000 people considers itself too weak and miserable to defend itself, it does not deserve independence. There are scores of countries in Europe and America that are poorer in resources and population than- Australia is, and why should Australia be the only country in the world that cannot stand by itself? Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, despite the fact that they have powerful nations contiguous to their borders, have been able to retain their independence. Holland is not a naval or military power, but it has an Empire in the East Indies, not far from the northern shores of Australia, with a population twenty times as great as that of the Commonwealth. It also has what is dear to the heart of the capitalistic exploiter - a full supply of cheap coloured labour. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2376</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXV</name.id>
                <electorate>SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
                <party>ALP; NAT from 1917</party>
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                <name role="metadata">NEWLANDS, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator NEWLANDS</name>
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              <para>-  The Dutch keep a big standing army in Java. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2376</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JZC</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">O&#39;LOGHLIN, James</name>
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              <para>- Of what strength? It is not a greater force than Australia could put into the field if it was attacked. The Dutch have been there for over a hundred years without any one molesting them. How is it that Aus tralia is the one country in the world that is supposed to be in danger of attack, while smaller nations with larger interests to defend are immune from danger? <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Lynch</inline> spoke of the immensity of the British Empire. I am not particularly impressed by area, but I am concerned about the position of the people of this vast Empire.  Are  they thriving and contented? Are they satisfied with the Government under which they live? 1 want to know how the Empire has been acquired. I take off my hat to the great conception of a British Commonwealth of free nations, such as exists in the British Empire today. There is a great and noble conception in that union of peoples drawn together by common traditions of race and literature. There are no bonds to hold them together except the nominal link of the Crown. The ties which really bind them are tradition and sentiment. Where it requires soldiers to maintain the British rule in a foreign land my respect and veneration is not bestowed. To illustrate my view, I shall quote an observation by Mark Twain, who was not in any sense anti-British.  His  literary works are equally the property of both branches of the English-speaking race. We know that it is a fact that our newspapers, our histories, and the propaganda in our schools, are designed to foster a particular state of feeling, and to engender certain convictions regarding this glorious and extensive Empire. He says- </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <quote>
            <para>The chief function of an English journal  ls  that of all other journals the world over;  it  must keep the public eye fixed admiringly upon certain things, and keep it diligently diverted from certain others. For instance,  it  must keep the public eye fixed admiringly upon, the glories of England, a processional splendour stretching its receding- line down the hazy vistas of time, with the mellowed lights  of a  thousand years glinting from its banners; and it must keep it diligently diverted from  the  fact that all these glories were for the enrichment and aggrandizement of the petted and privileged few, at cost of the blood and sweat and .poverty of the unconsidered masses who achieved them, but -might not enter in and .partake of them. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">That statement applied to the Empire in the past, but I do not think it applies today. Its non-application to-day is due to the fact that the British Democracy and the British Labour party, which represents the people of Great Britain, who  have had very little to say in the government of the country in the past, are coming into their heritage, and making their influence felt. </para>
          <para>The question has been raised whether we are necessarily * involved in war when the Empire is at war. I join issue at once with those who made that statement, and say that we are not necessarily involved. That point never arose until twenty-five or thirty years ago. It was a subject of discussion in connexion with the Boer war. There has hardly been a decade when England has not been engaged in a petty war in some part of the Empire, or with a foreign nation. I do not think any one can say that all those wars were undertaken to make the world &#34;safe for Democracy,&#34; or to secure the freedom and liberty of small nations. Australia existed as a part of the Empire for many years without any one suggesting that we were necessarily involved in Great Britain&#39;s wars. We have never been involved in any war except those in which we have engaged voluntarily. The Prime Minister says, in effect, that we have to decide whether Australia shall be a separate nation, solely responsible for her own safety, or shall elect to remain a part of the Empire, and entitled to enjoy the protection of the British Navy. With all due deference to the Prime Minister, I say that that is not the position. We have to decide whether or not we shall take the responsibility of defending this outpost of the Empire, thus relieving Great Britain of that obligation, and enabling her to concentrate her strength elsewhere. That is the Labour party&#39;s view, and I think it is sound. No other self-governing Dominion of the Empire has suggested that it is necessarily involved in every petty war in which the British Cabinet decides to take part. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2377</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">ELLIOTT, Harold</name>
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              <para>- What does the honorable senator mean by being &#34; necessarily involved&#34; in a war? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2377</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">O&#39;LOGHLIN, James</name>
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              <para>- I mean that we necessarily take part in it. Many years ago <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Wilfrid</inline> Laurier, who was Prime Minister of Canada for a longer period than any other man, adopted the attitude that Canada was not necessarily involved in foreign complications unless the Canadian Parliament, representing the Canadian people, decided to take part in them. I find that <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. McKenzie</inline> King, the present Prime Minister of the Dominion, speaking at Montreal in February last, advocated the doctrine . that Canada should not be involved in foreign wars unless she was interested in them. The following resolution was passed by the New Zealand Parliament a week or two ago: - </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <quote>
            <para>That resolutions passed at the Imperial Conference are only obligatory upon any Dominion in the Empire if, and when, they are approved by the Parliaments of the Dominion. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">I shall quote the views&#34; of every selfgoverning Dominion in support of my contention. I have a statement by General Smuts, who is the most prominent Dominion statesman of the present day. He took an important and effective part in the war in both the field and the Cabinet. He did not do as some Other Prime Ministers have done, and confine himself to &#34; skiting,&#34; posing, and getting into the limelight. Having taken an effective part in the fighting, he went to London and, as a member of the Imperial Cabinet, was engaged in confidential missions. He stands loyally for the British connexion, notwithstanding the difficulty of maintaining that attitude in South Africa, for many of his Boer compatriots^ in the war for independence are on the opposite side. In a speech in the Union House of Assembly last month, in reply to criticisms by General Hertzog and <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. D.</inline> F. Malan regarding Dominion status and the European situation, he said - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>He would, at the Imperial Conference, defend his position regarding Dominion status, and the position of South Africa in the &#39; British Empire.  His  conception of the British Empire was a grouping of free States held together by their common allegiance, on terms of freedom and equality, and operating on a basis of .consultation. &#39;That was the conception for which he had fought, and having achieved a large measure of success, it would be weak and foolish of him to go to London to surrender that position for which he had fought. </para>
            <para>Referring to the grave position of Europe, General Smuts declared that it was quite possible that another great European calamity might arise. He therefore urged that the position of the British Empire must be defined. The great European war arose out of the fact that the position of some&#39; of the Great Powers was not clearly defined&#39;. If the position had been clearly denned, then the war might never have happened. The British  Empire,  as constituted to-day, had a very powerful  posi-tion  in the world, Which meant responsibility. South&#39; Africa did not .want to take part in future wars in Europe. What South Africa should do was to use her influence no longer as  a  subordinate colony, but as one of the States of a great Commonwealth. However small they were, whatever contribution they had to make, they Should make in the direction of the world&#39;s peace. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">That was a great and statesmanlike utterance. General Smuts will go to the Imperial Conference to maintain the selfgoverning rights and position of South Africa. He does not want to be engaged in any European war, and maintains that thecountry which he represents is an independent, self-governing nation, which should stand on an equality at the Conference with Great Britain and all the other Dominions. I have no time for those &#34; Little Australians &#34; who look at Imperial matters through the wide end of the telescope, but use the other end when they contemplate things Australian. No Australian should do that,  and I point out to my friends who do it, that the more they endeavour to exalt the Empire at the expense of the Dominions, and the more they attempt to bind this country by conferences, treaties, and representations at Imperial Conferences and Cabinets, the more will they progress in a direction opposite from that in which they wish to go. By adopting that course we shall be weakening rather than strengthening the bonds that bind us to the Mother Country. Those bonds have encircled us naturally as the result of our common ties and traditions. As greater rights of self-government have been extended to the Dominions, . as greater freedom has been given to them to decide their own affairs, so have the sentimental ties of history, tradition, and affection been strengthened. In theold days we had to struggle for our rights. We did not then have men (of the subservient temperament of some of our alleged statesmen to-day ; otherwise the liberties which we enjoy to-day would not soreadily have been granted, and, possibly, some of them would not be possessed by us at all. To mention a few prominent names, there were men like Wentworth, Dunmore Lang, Peter Lalor, and Higinbotham. They stood up for the rights of this young country, and insisted that it should be given liberties which some British statesmen attempted to deny it. We know what  a  fight took place with regard to the question of transportation. These colonies were not started as a benevolent scheme, but as an outlet for Great Britain&#39;s undesirable population. There were many years of struggling before the transportation of convicts to Australia was stopped. It was only when some sturdy Australians acted as the Americans did, that British statesmen began to realize that it was impossible to continue that policy.&#39; </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2378</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KBJ</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">WILSON, Reginald</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Wilson</name>
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              <para>-  A large percentage of those convicts made good. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2378</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JZC</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">O&#39;LOGHLIN, James</name>
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              <para>- Many of the men who came out as convicts were not criminals. They were sent out to Australia because theyasserted their rights in Great Britain; and Ireland at a time when, the laws were of a most vindictive nature. They were heroes, rather than criminals. They made good, and they provided an excellent foundation on which to build this nation. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>It has been, said  that  if. the British Empire were drawn into a war, its enemies would not recognise Australia&#39;s neutrality, but would attack us. Is it likely that any nation warring with a strong power like Great Britain would seek to provoke further opposition? Supposing England and Russia wereto go to war because of a dispute respecting the oil wells in Baku or Mesopotamia, or their rival interests in Persia and Afghanistan, and Russia possessed a navy capable of threatening any of the British Dominions, is it likely that she would draw into the struggle any Dominion which was  Mot  already participating ? It is the last thing in the world that any foreign nation would do. In 1883 or 1884 the scare was raised of a war between England and Russia. The scare spread to Australia. We were told that the Russian fleet lay at Vladivostock and was going to swoop down and wipe us right off the map. I was one  of  the young men who shouldered a rifle to hurl the invader into, the sea. The scare passed over. As far as I have been able to learn since, there was no Russian fleet at Vladivostock which could have made an attack on Australia. The same thing is likely to happen to-day because of the sedulous propagation of the doctrine that Australia is necessarily implicated in Britain&#39;s wars. An attempt to bring about war was recently made by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Lloyd-George.</inline> He does not appear  to  have consulted his Cabinet. He wanted to frighten the Turks, and he sent to Australia and the other selfgoverning Dominions an appeal  to go  to  bis aid. Australia and New Zealand, I believe, were &#39;the only Dominions which responded. South Africa and Canada very properly took up the. position that they should be furnished with further information regarding the cause of the trouble before they rushed into the war. The present composite remnantof the old Nationalist Ministry now attempts to justify the action that was then taken, although everybody else has condemned it as an unjustifiable threat at aggression. The Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce)</inline> says that, although it was a most unfortunate incident, Australia had no option but to stand up to its obligations. It would appear, therefore, that our obligations render us liable to rush into any war attempted to be made by the British Government, or even by one member of it. </para>
          <para class="italic">
            <inline font-style="italic">Sitting suspended from6.30 to8 p.m.</inline>
          </para>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2379</page.no>
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                <name.id>JZC</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">O&#39;LOGHLIN, James</name>
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              <para>- The Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce)</inline> in the House of Representatives, and <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Pearce</inline> in this Chamber, have attempted to gloss over the incident to which I have referred by saying that the action of the then Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Lloyd George)</inline> in cabling to the Dominions to send troops, if such a course proved necessary, was most unfortunate. It was more than that. It was a blunder and a crime, for which the people of Great Britain, at the earliest opportunity, visited condign punishment upon the perpetrator and his aiders , and abettors. I have no hesitation in saying that the result of the last election, when one-half of the Nationalist Ministry lost their seats, was convincing evidence that the&#39; people of Australia likewise condemned the blunder. I have referred to that incident as a most awful example of what might happen if we were to accept this dictum that Australia is necessarily involved in British troubles. The Prime Minister has declared that the action of the British Prime Minister was unfortunate, but that we had to stand up to our obligations. Assuming that the obligation existed, why should we be expected&#39; to observe it any more than Canada or South Africa? In view of the fact that the incident was an unjust act of aggression, we should have stood out. The ex-Prime Minister (Mr.W. M. Hughes) and his aiders and abettors in Australia are very lucky indeed that they are not resident in some other country. If they had been it is probable that they would not be alive to-day to tell the tale. It was for exactly similar action, as that taken by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Lloyd</inline> George and his abettors in Great Britain, and Nationalist Ministers here, that Gounaris and his Greek colleagues were taken out and shot a few months ago. It was for almost similar action, involving the entrance of Bulgaria into a war against the wish of the people, that certain Bulgarian Ministers are at present undergoing ten years&#39; penal servitude. </para>
            </talk.start>
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          <para>I have quoted resolutions passed byParliaments of the selfgoverning Dominions, or statements by Prime Ministers of various self-governing Dominions, to prove that we are. not necessarily involved in Britain&#39;s wars. I have even a stronger case in support of my contention. I refer to the declaration in the Constitution of the latest addition to the British Commonwealth of nations - the Irish Free State. Article 49 of the Irish Free State Constiuition reads- </para>
          <quote>
            <para>Save in case of actual invasion, the Irish Free State (Saaorstat Eireann) shall not be committed, to active participation in any war without the assent of theoireachtas (the Irish Parliament) . </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">I think this completes my substantiation, of the position I take up with regard to the crisis in the East a few months ago, and proves that Australia is not necessarily involved in any wars entered into by the British Cabinet unless it is the wish of our people that we should participate. </para>
          <para>Concerning the alleged defencelessness of the Commonwealth, it has been urged that in the event of trouble, and in the absence of efficient coast defences, hostile Avar vessels would be in a position to bombard our coastal cities and raid our commerce. One would think, to hear these statements, that it was the easiest thing in the world for hostile vessels to enter our waters and bombard our coastal towns and shipping. The Great War furnished conclusive evidence to the contrary. It showed that any such attempts were fraught with the gravest danger to attacking vessels. I ask my military friends opposite what important naval achievements in the way of bombardment of cities were recorded in. the late war. notwithstanding, that the navies of the Allies were in complete command of the seven seas? The British Navy, the strongest in the world, was supported by the Navies of France, Russia, Japan, Italy, and, towards the close of the war, by that of the United States of America also. What  hostile  town* did they destroy? What enemy coast did they bombard and seriously damage ? It is important to remember also that the position then was unique. Never before had there been such a combination of powerful navies unitedly in command of the seas. Except for a few isolated instances the German warships were also in command of the Baltic. What damage was done there! Did the German warships succeed- in capturing any coast cities! </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2380</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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                <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
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              <para>- Tea; they captured Revel. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2380</page.no>
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              <para>- The German Fleet did very little damage in the early part of the war. It was not until the Russian army and navy were completely disorganized by revolution that the German navy succeeded in doing serious damage in the Baltic. It is worth noting also that a very determined effort was made by Allied warships on the coast defences of Gallipoli. With what result? We all know that the <inline font-style="italic">Queen Elizabeth,</inline> the largest battleship in the world at the time, was pounding away at the Turkish defences for weeks, and during the whole of that time she had to be surrounded by a cordon of destroyers and protectors. She was not safe for a moment. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2380</page.no>
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              <para>- The <inline font-style="italic">Queen Elizabeth</inline> was surrounded by destroyers because of the presence of enemy submarines and mine-fields. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2380</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">O&#39;LOGHLIN, James</name>
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              <para>- Exactly. </para>
            </talk.start>
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          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2380</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
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              <para>- Then the land forces had some means of defence. </para>
            </talk.start>
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                <page.no>2380</page.no>
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              <para>- And have we no means of defence in Australia? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2380</page.no>
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              <para>- Practically none. We have no effective submarines, </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2380</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JZC</name.id>
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              <para>- Then all I can say is that the ex-Minister for Defence ought to be ashamed to make such a confession. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2380</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0F</name.id>
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              <para>- Our submarines are out of date. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2380</page.no>
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                <name.id>JZC</name.id>
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              <para>- That, I take it, is a reflection on the Defence Department. Only in this afternoon&#39;s paper there appears a statement by an acknow ledged great naval expert, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. H.</inline> W. Wilson - I do not think he is an Admiral, but he is a recognised expert.. He states that Australia should depend for her defence on aircraft and long-distance submarines. On this point also I quote another naval authority, Admiral <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Percy</inline> Scott, who, according to recent cables, stated - </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <quote>
            <para>Australia does not require battleships or a base at Singapore. She has all the means and material for defence within her own shores. </para>
          </quote>
          <para>Admiral <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Percy</inline> Scott, as honorable senators are aware, is a high naval authority, and was responsible, to a large extent, for the efficiency of the. British Navy at the outbreak of the war. Probably no man did more in bringing the British&#39; Fleet up to its present state of efficiency. </para>
          <para>Statements have also been made as to the amount which the taxpayers of Great Britain are called upon to pay for defence compared with the burden laid upon the taxpayers of . the Dominions. These figures show that Australia is paying far more than any other single Dominion of the Empire. I point out, however, that Australia is not in the same position as Great Britain. If Britain lost command of the sea, a hostile fleet could prevent food supplies reaching her people, &#60;md she would be starved out in three months. This could not happen to Australia. We are a self-contained country, producing all that is necessary for the sustenance of our people, and so long as we could keep an enemy from landing on our shores, or from attacking our principal cities, we should have very little to fear. Another point that has been raised is that our 12,000 miles of coast line affects our vulnerability. We do not want actually to defend those portions of our coastlinewhere there is no settlement. In my own State, from Fowler&#39;s Bay to Esperance there is very little settlement. It would not matter whether Japanese or Germans landed a force on the unsettled coasts of this continent. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2380</page.no>
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              <para>- From Eucla a hostile force would have to travel only 60 miles to reach the East-West Railway. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2380</page.no>
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              <para>- It would have to cross the Nullabor Plain, and it would have to be supplied from a distant base. Such points on our immense coastline are not vulnerable. It has been said that the British Empire is one of the greatest, forces for peace in the world to-day. I believe that it is, and it will be a greater force to-morrow; but yesterday and the day before that could not be said of Britain. It has had more petty wars than any other nation. Since the Franco-Prussian war of 1870, until a few years ago, Germany had only engaged in one war, and that was when it assisted to suppress the Boxer Rebellion in China. But Great Britain during that period had, probably, a dozen small wars, and it cannot be said that all of them were fought to maintain the integrity of small democracies. To-day the people of Britain have a voice in the Government as they have never had before. The Labour party is securing greater power, and in a few years, it will, I believe, have the government of Britain in its hands. The Labour movement everywhere stands for peace and brotherhood among the people of all nations. I am not afraid that there is much likelihood of another big war. The forces working for war and estrangement between nations are not now as great as they were. I do not place implicit faith in the League of Nations, but I think that it will go a considerable distance in the direction of securing the peace of the world. The Washington Disarmament Conference has been an important factor towards the attainment of peace, and it is a great pity that that Conference did not bring about a reduction in armies as wellas navies. The peoples of the earth now realize as never before the horrors and miseries of war, and I think there are forces at work that will prevent a recurrence of the conflagration that began in 1914. I pin my faith to one of the objectives of the Labour party - </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <quote>
            <para>The cultivation of an Australian sentiment based upon the maintenance of racial purity and the development in Australia of an enlightened and self-reliant community. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">I maintain that self-reliance is just as necessary for nations as. for individuals. A man who is always leaning upon somebody else will never make much progress. Nor is a nation that adopts the attitude that some honorable senators opposite take up likely to make much headway. I may be told that these sentiments are an indication of a desire to &#34; cut the painter.&#34; That phrase is objectionable, because it is derogatory to Australia. 1 understand that a painter is a rope or hawser connecting a small boat with a large vessel. Is that the position of Australia to-day in regard to the Mother Country ? Some&#39; honorable senators opposite would suggest that we are like a small boat tied to the stern, and subject to the control of the master ship. I maintain that Australia should take a front place in the battle line with a sister fleet, not so large as that of Great Britain, but one having equal privileges. Australia should have command of its own destinies. It would always be prepared to co-operate with Britain, but should not be compelled to take action against its will.. Australia has no quarrel, so far as I know, with any nation, and no desire to enter into any old-world disputes. I believe&#39; that the position she will occupy in future may be described by adapting the words of Solomon :  - &#34;  Her  ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths sure peace.&#34; </para>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2381</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K09</name.id>
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            <para>.This discussion seems to have caused many honorable senators to wonder where Australia stands in regard to the several great subjects listed for discussion at the Imperial Conference. To my mind the most important question to be discussed is that of naval, military, and air defence. Some honorable senators who have preceded me have devoted themselves almost entirely to the consideration of war rather than of defence. No utterance by the Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce),</inline> who spoke very ably on this subject in the other Chamber, could be construed to mean that he proposed to discuss the question at the Conference from the point of view of war. One honorable senator suggested that the party to which I belong had only one object in view, namely, that Australia should pose as a war-like nation and not as one disposed towards peace, but that assertion . is very wide of the mark. I believe that there is no part of the British Empire so vulnerable as Australia is, and no country to which the eyes of an enemy would be more keenly directed. The reason is easy to discover, because Australia is reputedly the richest land in the world. We have more wealth to the individual and more potential wealth than any other nation, and surely it is only logical that we should, just as a man makes provision to protect his own property, take care that our vast heritage is adequately defended. Hitherto we have had to depend to a very great extent upon the protection of &#39;the Motherland. </para>
          </talk.start>
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            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2382</page.no>
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              <para>- When did we require it? </para>
            </talk.start>
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                <page.no>2382</page.no>
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              <para>- We have needed it for many years. </para>
            </talk.start>
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              <page.no>2382</page.no>
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            <para>- We required it in the late war. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2382</page.no>
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">O&#39;LOGHLIN, James</name>
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              <para>- Australia helped the Mother Country in the war. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2382</page.no>
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              <para>-Without the protection of the Motherland we could not have sent a soldier across the sea. Britain kept the ocean highways open, and it was the finest defence we had. The strength of a chain is its weakest link, and the weakest link in the British Empire, Australia, should bo made strong. </para>
            </talk.start>
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          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2382</page.no>
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              <para>- Let us have some evidence of that. </para>
            </talk.start>
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            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2382</page.no>
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              <para>- The evidence would bo forthcoming immediately if we were attacked by a foreign Power, bub it would be a fatal mistake to wait for that evidence. The honorable senator would be the first to bemoan the fact that we had not been alive to our duty. </para>
            </talk.start>
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          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2382</page.no>
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              <para>- I am alive to it now, and the adequate defence of Australia is part of the Labour party&#39;s policy. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2382</page.no>
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              <para>- The defence of Tasmania may be part of our written policy, but it does not follow that it is part of the policy of the individuals who subscribe to it. There is a difference between a written policy to which one subscribes, and a policy in which one in his heart believes. We cannot have proof of the need for the defence of Australia until the necessity for defence arises.  We have not yet been attacked by a foe, thanks to the vigilance of the British Navy, which has always stood for our protection. Consequently, I claim that we are justified in fortifying our representatives at the Imperial Conference with the view that they should do all they can to assist that Conference in formulating, what will eventually be a complete system of defence for the whole Empire. I contend that that can be done without adopting a war-like spirit towards any nation. Nothing is farther from the intentions of the Imperial Government and the self-governing Dominions of the Empire to-day than to do anything to antagonize any nation. We want, as far as we can, to cultivate that feeling of brotherhood which was referred to a few minutes ago. I believe that at heart that feeling is paramount in British statesmen, and I believe it is shared to the full by the statesmen of the Commonwealth. </para>
            </talk.start>
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          <para>Some reference was made this afternoon, and I very much regret it, to the League of Nations. It was stated that the term &#34; League of Nations &#34; was a misnomer, because the League did not include every nation of the earth. &#34; Borne was not built in a day,&#34; and I contend, and am justified in contending, that the League of Nations, handicapped as it has been by the non-participation in its work of some of the important nations, has achieved wonderful things. It has done work that will stand for all time. It has prevented, at least, three wars from occurring. It has rehabilitated Austria, which was in a deplorable condition, and if it had done nothing more, that would be sufficient to justify its existence. I hope, with the honorable senator who referred to the subject, that it will not be long before the United States of America joins the League and all the nations of any importance in the world subscribe to its covenant. If that should happen future wars will be very far distant. </para>
          <para>I pass from, the question of defence to another important matter which I find listed as a subject for discussion at the Economic Conference. I refer to trade development,  and particularly to preference for Australian products entering the Mother Country. I do not believe that we can go to the Old Country, and, with any chance of success, knock at the door of the British Parliament and demand a degree of preference for Australian products beyond that given, to the products of other countries. We cannot hope to bring about a complete alteration in the fiscal policy of the Old Country, but I think we can produce facts to prove to British statesmen that we have done our best to give preference to British manufactures. Notwithstanding the fact that the British manufacturer has experienced great difficulty, since the war, in disposing of his stocks, Australia has been a larger customer than she was before the war. The statistics of our imports, from Great Britain prove&#34; conclusively that w&#60;: are a better customer for British manufacturers to-day than we have been at any period in our history. We have only to turn to the Tariff passed by Parliament last year to find that we have given a large measure of preference to British goods. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Gardiner</inline> referred to the &#34; so-called preference &#34; given to the Old Country, and instanced duties of 20, 30, and 45 per cent. imposed by this country upon British goods. He failed to recognise that some of the articles which we use so extensively, to the value of millions of pounds annually, are admitted free from Great Britain, whilst the lowest rate of duty imposed on similar imports from, other countries is 15 per cent. The British manufacturer of those articles, therefore, has a preference of 15 per cent. over the manufacturers of other countries. In presenting our case for Imperial preference, we are justified in bringing that fact under the notice of the Imperial authorities. I have no doubt that the representative of Australia at the Imperial Conference will demonstrate that fact clearly. In Australia we are as children in the manufacturing world. I say that advisedly. We have to build up our industries. It will be many years before we can claim that we are on the same level as the manufacturers of the Old Land in producing the staple goods required in every-day life. We are a young country, and we have not the experience, nor have we, at the present time, the requisite number of skilled operatives to enable us to compete successfully with the manufacturers of a well-established centre like Great Britain. That justifies Australia in imposing a Tariff so that we may be able to build up our industries, until, eventually, we shall be a selfcontained country. It may be argued that, to give encouragement to Australian manufacturers in that way is to handicap British manufacturers; but my reply to such a suggestion is that the Old Country finds itself unable to support, in any reasonable degree of comfort, its vast population. We are asked day by day,&#39; month by month, and year by year, to take a certain number of its people as immigrants to this new world. This is proposed in order to make the Empire stronger by a more equal distribution of its population. , That is a sufficient answer to any suggestion that the en couragement of Australian industries will handicap the British manufacturers, because these people from the Old Country will be employed in assisting to build up our manufacturing industries. If, in the development of Australia, we can provide for the maintenance of a larger population than we have to-day, and thereby relieve. Great Britain from some of its burdens, we shall be not only strengthening the bonds of Empire, but also doing much to help England to solve the problems arising out of its surplus population. We are justified in pressing our claim for preference. If preference cannot be given directly by means of a British . Customs Tariff, there is only one course left for our representative, and that is to press for favorable recognition of a request that the Imperial Government should provide for our raw materials to be conveyed to the Old Country at a cheaper rate than rules to-day. This would really involve an Imperial subsidy to one portion of the Empire in order that the British people might use the products of the rural producers of the outlying portions of this country in preference to the products of other countries of the world. Comparatively speaking,we are a handful of people. The land of Australia is capable of producing very much more than it produces to-day. Statistics recently&#39; publishedshow that the value of our exports during the past year did not amount to anything like the value of our imports; while a year or two ago, the value of our exports considerably exceeded that of our imports. That is a serious position, and we should endeavour to remedy it so that the balance of trade mayswing in our favour as soon as possible. We can achieve that only by devising means whereby our products can compete, with a reasonable chance of success,with similar products from other parts of theworld. I know that we shall have to put our own house in order to bring that about. We cannot expect everything to be done for us by the Mother Country. We must cheapen the cost of production wherever possible, and if we can show  to the Imperial authorities, through our representative, that we are determined to do our, part in the business, we shall be justified in asking for favorable consideration of our proposal. </para>
          <para>Another very important matter is immigration. I know that this is a question on which opinions are very much divided. We have a large, sparsely populated country. We cannot say that our metropolitan areas are sparsely populated, because they are very congested; but I do not go as far as my honorable friends opposite, and object to immigration because there are a large number of unemployed in this country. Those honorable senators say that while we have any unemployed in this country there is no room for additional population from overseas. I cannot subscribe to that view, because, even since I can remember, we have had the unemployed problem withus. It is a problem which will always be evident, not only in Australia, but in every country of the world. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2384</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KMP</name.id>
                <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
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              <para>- Does not the honorable.senator think that the difficulty would be increased by bringing further . immigrants to Australia? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2384</page.no>
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              <para>- It will depend on the class of immigrant that is brought to Australia. It would be the height of folly to bring out an undesirable class of immigrant. A fairly large proportion of the unemployed in Australia to-day are unskilled labourers. We do not want to bring to Australia a large number of unskilled men, except for a special purpose. If in the ranks of the unemployed there are men who will not take up the occupation of tilling the land, and farming is languishing throughout the Commonwealth because of the shortage of farm labour- </para>
            </talk.start>
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          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2384</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KMP</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
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              <para>- What is. the good, of talking like that &#39; when men cannot get land? At Henty the other day 1,100 people applied for five blocks. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2384</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- I have made careful inquiries, and they have led me to the conclusion that in every rural district there is plenty of opportunity for farm labourers to secure employment. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2384</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
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              <para>- Does it not occur to the honorable senator that the services of these men are required by the rural industries in England? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2384</page.no>
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              <para>- If there are in England farm labourers who are out of employment, employment can be found for them in Australia. I do not know what proportion of the unemployed in Great Britain is comprised of farm labourers. If the scarcity of labour in the rural industries in England is as great as it is in Australia, there will be no chance of getting farm labourers to come to Australia. Every care should be exercised in the selection of the men. Australia badly wants skilled artisans for the carpentering, building, and allied trades. My investigations have satisfied me that, the great scarcity of skilled operatives is one of the main factors in the high cost of living. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2384</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KMP</name.id>
                <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
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                <name role="metadata">GRANT, John</name>
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              <para>- A large number of engineers and boilermakers are unemployed. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
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              <talker>
                <page.no>2384</page.no>
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              <para>- Every State should do all it can to assist the Commonwealth to solve this problem. It is a matter affecting; the whole of the Commonwealth, but without the co-operation of the various States we cannot hope for success in dealing with it. The most practical suggestion that I have heard for dealing with the immigration problem has been put forward by Tasmania. Honorable senators have heard the slogan, &#34; A million farms for a million farmers.&#34; That is nothing more than a slogan. If any State could evolve a scheme on commonsense lines which, if put into practice/ would assist the Commonwealth authorities to people Australia, it ought to be given credit for it. I am pleased that a scheme of that character has emanated from the little State of Tasmania. </para>
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          <para>The <inline font-weight="bold">DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Newland).</inline> - I ask the honorable senator how he intends to connect the immigration scheme of Tasmania with the motion before the Senate ? </para>
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                <page.no>2384</page.no>
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              <para>- The first item listed for discussion at the Economic Conference is Empire settlement and plans for the future. The scheme I refer to is one of afforestation, by which . the authorities who have evolved it claim they can establish colonies, each of 200 boys, in various parts of Tasmania. This scheme can. be brought to fruition only with the financial co-operation of the Imperial authorities. . It is proposed to establish these colonies in four or five centres in Tasmania, the boys to be trained in the rudiments of farming and to assist in the afforestation scheme. It is a big scheme which, when one first reads- it, almost takes away one&#39;s breath. A careful perusal of the scheme, however, leads one to the conclusion that there is; a good deal of common sense underlying it If it is realized, it will be a great aid to England in solving the problem of what should be done with its waifs and strays, who at present have to be looked after in <inline font-weight="bold">Dr. Barnardo&#39;s</inline> Homes, and institutions of that character; At the same time, this . outpost of the British Empire will be strengthened, and the boys, will eventually be a great asset to the Commonwealth. The proposal is to approach the Imperial authorities to finance the scheme by granting a loan, to Tasmania. Provision is to be made for the liquidation of that loan on absolutely sound financial lines. The advantage to be gained by the Old Country is that it will be relieved of the necessity of maintaining this army of boys- The same boyswill not always be in the colonies that are; proposed to be established. When a boy reaches the age of eighteen years he can pass out of the colony, his: place being taken by others of a younger age-. It is proposed to bring out boys at as early an age as eight years. </para>
            </talk.start>
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            <talk.start>
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                <page.no>2385</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Edmund</name>
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              <para>- Most of the waifs, and strays of Great Britain are mental deficients. What is it proposed to do with them? </para>
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          </interjection>
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                <page.no>2385</page.no>
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              <para>- If my honorable friend refers to the records- relating to the many thousands of boys who have gone to Canada from the Barnardo Homest he will find that 95 per cent. of them have made good and are numbered&#39; amongst the best: citizens of the Dominion. In view of that fact, will he suggest that those boys were, mentally- deficient? Does he mean that a boy must be born in wealthy surroundings, in order to have his full mental faculties? I could take the- honorable senator- to the Gordon Institute and show him thirty or forty boys who are far keener and more intelligent than many children who have been born in better surroundings. They have been picked up in the gutters of Melbourne. Let the honorable senator go to Tally Ho, the farm which- is being run for boys of that class, and he will \find that 99 per cent. have made good. The same thing applies to the Barnardo boys. I have not the slightest doubt that the. Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce)</inline> will place this scheme in the forefront of his suggestions regarding the emigration of a portion of the juvenile population of Great Britain. The greatest advantage of the whole scheme lies in the fact that not one boy will compete with the labour at present on the labour market. If only one colony is established, the admission of those 200 boys, to Australia will give an impetus to the building trade in that particular locality,, and provide more work for the skilled artisans. Figures are given to show what, the land would produce in twenty-five-, years&#39; time. The second object is to provide a welcome addition to our population! in the shape of young men who will be&#62; an asset, to the farming community of Australia. Many of these lads will receive technical training in such industries as carpentering and allied occupations-,, and eventually they ought to prove, very useful citizens. The enterprise ofthe Tasmanian Government is highly commendable. The scheme will be of advantage to- the authorities in the Old Country, and it. will materially help not only/ Tasmania, but the Commonwealth as a whole. </para>
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          <para>I have nothing more to say,, except <inline font-style="italic">to.</inline> express a. hope that the representation of&#39;. Australia at the Imperial Conferences- will&#39; be effective; and1 that the right honorable the Prime Minister and <inline font-style="italic">&#34;bis</inline> colleague, <inline font-weight="bold">Senator- Wilson,,</inline> will go away with the good-will of Parliament and&#39; do good work. Their contribution to the deliberations of the Conferences and their attitude towards; the questions to be discussed will be watched with interest, and I hope that, when they return,, they will be. in a position to inform Parliament that the deliberations of the Conferences will help in solving many of thedifficulties with which we, as a portion of the Empire, are confronted. </para>
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              <page.no>2385</page.no>
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            <para>. - I was rather interested and amazed at <inline font-weight="bold">Senator O&#39;Loghlin&#39;s</inline> remarks.- He stated that, with the Allied Navies in possession of the seas during the war, no towns were bombarded. I am not. aware that there was any town of sufficient importance to justify bombardment. Can the honorable senator inform me of one? I was not over the- whole- of the Fronts, but I do- not know of any town that was worth shelling. </para>
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                <page.no>2385</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">O&#39;LOGHLIN, James</name>
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              <para>- What about the coasts of Asia Minor ? </para>
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                <page.no>2385</page.no>
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              <para>- Can- the honorable senator name any town there; that was worth shelling? </para>
            </talk.start>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">O&#39;LOGHLIN, James</name>
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              <para>-  Smyrna was. </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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              <para>- That was not worth wasting powder and shot on. There was not one town of sufficient importance to justify attention from a hostile fleet, but I remind the honorable senator that had the war continued a little longer, Berlin would have had the &#34; shell-case &#34; bombed out of her, and Germany would have got a little bit of her own medicine. She would have got as good a gruelling as any other country in the world. And good enough for her, too! Australia, so my honorable friends say, is not isolated. &#34; We will arm and defend it in our own way,&#34; he said. Why, without thehelp of Britain we could not last twenty-four hours. We have no arms, ammunition, or big guns. The honorable senator also talks about Esperance Bay, and suggests that it would not be possible for a hostile force to land there. A force could land there, and in a few weeks could build a railway line to connect with the East-West Railway. They could then send troops where they liked, even down to Adelaide. During the war in one case we built over 100 miles of railway over an absolute desert, in no time, and brought water up with us. I am not giving honorable senators any &#34; flapdoodle &#34; about British achievements in the war. I am giving them plain facts. Lack of a water supply will not stop an enemy - a desert willnot stop him. </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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              <para>-  But what would we be doing while all this was happening ? </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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              <para>-  Like the babes in the wood, you would be lost. </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">O&#39;LOGHLIN, James</name>
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              <para>-  We are a poor lot. </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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              <para>-  You are, I admit. The honorable senator talks about Australia not depending upon Great Britain. Make no mistake about it; we are dependent for our safety upon the British Fleet. Had it not been for that fleet during the war, Australia would have been, practically bankrupt. We would have had all our surplus products heaped up, and would have been unable to do anything with them. But &#34; Billy &#34; Hughes got to work; he bought, ships and ran them, under the protection of the British Fleet. </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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              <para>-  And won the war ! </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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              <para>- Yes. He is the greatest statesman that Australia has ever seen. He may be called a. &#34; twister,&#39;&#39; but he is game to the end, and during the war he rose to the occasion. </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">OGDEN, James</name>
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              <para>-  And he is downand out now. </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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              <para>- You can push &#34; Billy &#34; Hughes down, but, like a champagne cork, he will bob up again. </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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              <para>-  And fizz a lot. </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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              <para>- Yes, but, like a cork, he will come on. top. </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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              <para>-  And go off &#34; pop.&#34; </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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              <para>-  I admit that when &#34; Billy &#34; Hughes does get on top he goes off &#34; pop.&#34; More power to him. During the war we had enormous stocks of primary products, but could not get them overseas until &#34; Billy &#34; Hughes bought a number of ships!, and, thanks to the British Fleet, which kept our trade routes clear, we were able then to send them to Britain. They were an excellent asset, and saved this country. We would have been bankrupt but for Great Britain. She paid us in good hard cash for our surplus produce, which was virtually rotting in the country here, and could not be moved at the time. In the face of all this, <inline font-weight="bold">Senator O&#39;Loghlin</inline> talks about doing without the British Empire. </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">O&#39;LOGHLIN, James</name>
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              <para>-  Did not Great Britain want our products at the time ? </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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              <para>- You talk about- </para>
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          <para>The <inline font-weight="bold">DEPUTY PRESIDENT (Senator Newland).</inline> - Order! I ask the honorable senator to- address the Chair. </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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              <para>- Yes, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Acting President,</inline> I shall do so; but I have to give some attention to my honorable friend here who cries and whines so much, and pretends to believe that we can get on by ourselves. He does not put forward any reasonable proposition. He merely says that we ought to do &#34; so and so,&#34; but does not indicate how we would get on if we were not part of the Empire. When thingswere at their worst, the Right Honorable William Morris Hughes had brains enough to see a way out. He bought the ships to move our surplus produce to the Old Country and got Great Britain to pay us millions of pounds for wheat that was lying on our wharfs. </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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              <para>-  At that time we could not even buy the wheat. </para>
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                <page.no>2386</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
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              <para>-  Still, we had the cheapest loaf in the world during, the  war. </para>
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                <page.no>2387</page.no>
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              <para>- Not only had we the cheapest bread, but also the cheapest sugar in the world. Still some people are always growling about the sugarkings. Had it not been for the Queensland sugar industry we should have starved for sugar. All this talk about the brotherhood of man amuses me. I have had a fair amount of experience, and I am satisfied that talking about the brotherhood of man will not stop wars. Man will fight practically from the minute he is born. &#34; The brotherhood of&#34; man &#34; sounds very well, and no doubt it is a good subject for a Yarra Bank &#34; spouter but I am satisfied that those who are in the &#34; brotherhood,&#34; as they call it, would eat one another if they had the chance. I guarantee that if one of those fellows won five &#34; bob &#34; in a two-up school it would not be safe for him to go home alone. If it was dark he would be sandbagged by another of the &#34; brotherhood &#34; before he got there. </para>
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          <para>
            <inline font-weight="bold">Senator O&#39;Loghlin</inline>had a good deal to say about following Great Britain in her wars. I remind him that we all went to the war as free men. I have been through two wars in the last five and twenty years, and I went into both of them with my eyes wide open. I am proud to think that the Australian Army was the only free army in the war. </para>
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                <page.no>2387</page.no>
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                <name role="metadata">O&#39;LOGHLIN, James</name>
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              <para>- Hear, hear! </para>
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                <page.no>2387</page.no>
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              <para>- It is all very well for the honorable senator to say &#34; Hear, hear.&#34; That is not what he said just now. </para>
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                <page.no>2387</page.no>
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              <para>- That is just what I have been contending .  for all along. </para>
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                <page.no>2387</page.no>
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              <para>- The honorable senator would say anything to suit his own case. The Australian Army, I repeat,was the freest army in the war. Every man who went was a volunteer. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2387</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JZC</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">O&#39;LOGHLIN, James</name>
                <name role="display">Senator O&#39;Loghlin</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- And Hughes wanted to compel men to go. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2387</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JRT</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">COX, Charles</name>
                <name role="display">Senator COX</name>
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              <para>- We had gone before &#34; Billy &#34; Hughes thought of endeavouring to bring about conscription. But even after the conscription campaign, men, at least the sensible and loyal men, who realized that Australia was in danger, came forward freely to fight for the Empire. They knew that unless we won through we should have Germans, controlling us. I also heard one honorable senator, I think it was <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Payne,</inline> talking about putting 400 boys into Tasmania. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2387</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KBJ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">WILSON, Reginald</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Wilson</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- The honorable senator does not want to crowd the place, surely. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2387</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JRT</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">COX, Charles</name>
                <name role="display">Senator COX</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I admit that if we &#34; flopped &#34; too many boys into Tasmania she would probably sink. There is a big scheme under consideration at present for settlement in the Northern Territory by private enterprise. I understand thata British capitalist has made certain proposals for the establishment of a community settlement there, and if the idea materializes it should have a most beneficial result. It would be of great advantage to Australia if the Northern Territory could be settled along those lines. The community settlement scheme in Western Australia appeals to me strongly, and I wish that State every success in its venture. Personally, I should be prepared to bring immigrants to Australia in great numbers. Of course, they, should be of the right type. There is land within a couple of hundred miles of Melbourne on which a million people could be settled within the next five years; and they would not interfere in the slightest degree with the Labour markets in the cities, where the unemployed are. As a matter of fact, the unemployed would be found going out to help them. I refer to the lands along the River Murray, which are admirably suited for&#39; settlement on a very large scale. We are told that, immigration should be discouraged because, there is a shortage of houses. What did our forefathers do in Australia? They built their own&#34; humpies,&#34; and were satisfied to blaze the trail. There is too much spoon-feeding of people by the Government in these times. We are asked to clear ground and cultivate it before putting people on the land. Our forefathers set us an example of pluck and independence. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2387</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOJ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">HAYS, Herbert</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Hays</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Hats off to them! </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2387</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JRT</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">COX, Charles</name>
                <name role="display">Senator COX</name>
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              <para>- I, too, say that. There are many people in Great Britain willing to settle in this country. I regret to notice by the press that many Scotch immigrants are going to Canada. Every part of New South Wales that has been settled by Scotchmen is prosperous, and I should like to see more Scottish immigrants in Australia. I hope the Prime Minister will succeed in arranging with the British authorities for a big stream of- immigration to this country. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2387</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KOZ</name.id>
              <electorate>SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">HOARE, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator HOARE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - The Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Pearce)</inline> has. placed before us the business to be dealt with, at the Imperial Conference, and, when Parliament reassembles, we shall be given an opportunity to discuss what&#39; transpired there. The people will then learn what has been done by the men standing behind &#34;big business.&#34; I venture to think, that not one representative at the Conference will be from the ranks of Labour. The delegates will view every subject discussed through the spectacles of Imperialism, conquest, and secret diplomacy. The latter is another name for international subterfuge. One does not begrudge the Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Bruce)</inline> and <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Wilson</inline> their trip to England ; no doubt the Prime Minister will place his political views before the Conference just as a Labour Minister would put his&#34; case from a Labour viewpoint. I strongly disagree with the proposal for a resident Minister in London, We have been told that the High Commissioner for Australia cannot get into touch with the British Cabinet without undue delay, and the Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Pearce)</inline> seems to be under the impression that if the Commonwealth had a Minister in England he would be able to keep the Commonwealth in closer touch than it is at present with the British authorities. Are honorable senators to understand that the &#34;flunkies&#34; and &#34;understrappers&#34; bluff the High Commissioner, or is it to be understood that the High Commissioner is treated with scant courtesy in England, and is denied the right to approach the British Cabinet on Commonwealth business? If the latter is the case, what guarantee have we that a Commonwealth Minister in London would be in a more advantageous position? If the High Commissioner, backed by six Agents-General, cannot adequately represent the Commonwealth in Great Britain, the sooner they are dismissed the better for all concerned. The people are already overburdened with debt, and &#38; reduction in the cost of the official staff in London would be appreciated. If a higher status for Australia&#39;s representatives in Britain is required, let it be given to the High Commissioner. If there is any difficulty, surely the Government can remedy it by appealing to the British Prime Minister and telling him that the High Commissioner is unable to get the ear of the British authorities as required. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>Reference was made by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Pearce</inline> to the industrial disturbance throughout the Commonwealth. I should like to point out that the industrial upheaval is not confined to Australia, or to the British Empire. No civilized nation has been untouched by it. The trouble is due to oppression of the people. This oppression resulted in the revolution in Russia, and the subsequent threat of the British workmen to go on strike and paralyze industry if Great Britain- insisted upon despatching troops to Russia. There have been reports of a threatened revolution in India. The campaign of passive resistance inaugurated by Gandhi is not surprising considering the treatment meted out to the people of that country. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Lynch</inline> seemed to scorn the idea of an honorable senator having the audacity to say anything of a disparaging nature regarding British administration in India. Let me direct attention to the following newspaper extract: -  </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>2388</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>INDIA&#39;S AWFUL TRAGEDY</title>
          <page.no>2388</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>Now that the censor is no longer able ito blue-pencil the world&#39;s happenings, we are permitted to learn that, far from being democratized as a result of the war, British rule in India is more severe than ever. Indeed, recent events in that country seem to indicate that when the parcels of &#34; Democracy &#34; were being handed out to the British Dominions, India&#39;s share got lost on the road. </para>
        <para>It would be hard to believe that such shocking atrocities could be perpetrated in the British Empire, were it not for the -fact that details are openly printed and circulated in the English and American press. For instance, the London <inline font-style="italic">Daily Herald</inline> tells us that &#34; untold numbers of men and women natives in India have been massacred. Innumerable halfstarved and half-naked men, women, and children, armed with nothing but bamboo sticks, have lost their lives  before  British machine guns.&#34; </para>
        <para>Who does not remember the horrified indignation of our own respectable press when German aeroplanes bombed English cities, and the condemnatory speeches of our local jingoes when referring to the &#34; baby-killing&#34; tactics of the German raiders? But what must we think, when we read, published openly in the London press, that &#34; British aeroplanes are bombing the defenceless Indian villages.  and  murdering  half-starved  men, women, .and children in cold blood?&#34; </para>
        <para>We remember how our respectable Press cursed the arrogance of Prussian army officers who punished Belgian and French citizens for destroying the German proclamations costed up in the captured towns and villages. But what shall we say of the arrogance of British </para>
        <para>Army officers who, in one Indian  city  alone, flogged a dozen citizens in the public  square  for tearing down Government notices? </para>
        <para>And what, too, shall we say when we learn, on the authority of the London <inline font-style="italic">Times,</inline> that in Delhi girls and boys of twelve and thirteen years of age -were arrested for &#34;seditious utterances&#34; - their crime being that they admitted they were followers of&#39; Gandhi, the great passive resistance leader in India? </para>
        <para>Just <inline font-style="italic">now</inline> wo are hearing quite a lot about the atrocities of the Bolsheviks - how the Soviet Government is alleged to be shooting persons without a trial. Well, it seems that we, too, are pretty efficient in the atrocity business. The English press records that recently twenty-six Russian propagandists were captured on the Indianborder, and put on a train that carried them to a lonely spot in the desert, where British soldiery shot them without trial, and buried their dead bodies in the sand. </para>
        <para>And what shall we say of those responsible for the administration of India in view of the revelations -made recently by the <inline font-style="italic">India Famine Fund?</inline> Listen to this: </para>
        <para> Appalling conditions prevail throughout India; 32,000,000 deaths have occurred already; 150,000,000 are on , the verge of starvation. Death stalks through the land, taking its toll. The existing conditions are unparailleled elsewhere in the history of the world. The poor have eaten all their food&#39;, and thousands upon thousands are reduced to such a &#39;state that they are nothing but living skeletons: The conditions are indescribable and ghastly. The cities are peopledby emaciated humanity. Traffic has ceased, mails are undelivered, and business isat a standstill. . . . &#34; </para>
        <para>It would be hard to find in the history of the modern world a more shocking example of cruel and barbarous administration than the present &#34; Democratic &#34; administration of India by the Governmentof Lloyd George. </para>
        <para class="block">A British officer in India caused machineguns to be fired at defenceless women and children, and several hundred of them were killed. That officer was recalled and rewarded with a higher salary. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2389</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JXZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
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              <name role="metadata">DUNCAN, Walter</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Duncan</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Where is the honorable gentleman&#39;s authority for his statements ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2389</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KOZ</name.id>
              <electorate>SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">HOARE, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator HOARE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I get my knowledge, as the honorable senator gets his, by reading. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2389</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXZ</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <name role="metadata">DUNCAN, Walter</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Duncan</name>
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              <para>- The honorable senator ought to quote his authority. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2389</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOZ</name.id>
                <electorate>SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
                <party>ALP</party>
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">HOARE, Albert</name>
                <name role="display">Senator HOARE</name>
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              <para>- I have already quoted authorities whose opinions have been published in the press of Australia. If <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Duncan</inline> did not read them, that is his own responsibility. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>We boast that the British flag, the &#34;red, white, and blue,&#34; stands for liberty, freedom, and justice. Let us prove it by extendingliberty, freedom, and justice to the people of India; let us allow them to control their own destiny under a system of home rule, with adult suffrage. I, unlike <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Reid,</inline> do not expect the Prime Minister to place a proposal for home rule for India before the Imperial Conference. Such a proposal is too democratic for a Government like that now in power. Sooner or later the British Government must face the fact that if it wants the people of India to be subservient to British rule, to be a free and happy people, to fight for and uphold the British flag and the British Empire, it must give them something for which to fight. It must feed and clothe them. It must give them democratic government, which, to my mind, would bring manhood to all men, womanhood to all women, and hope to-day and love to-morrow to the little toddlers who are now being starved to death in that country. </para>
          <para>Let me now consider the proposal to construct a naval base at Singapore. There is a good deal of opposition to it. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Asquith,</inline> who has expressed his opinion upon it, should know what he is talking about. Speaking in the House of Commons, he said he considered that this base was too far away from the seat of Government - 8,000 miles - and that its cost was immeasurable. He added that it could not be constructed for less than &#163;10,000,000, and he thought it would cost a great deal more. He trusted that the British Government would stay its hand. The following is theopinion of  Colonel A&#39;Court  Repington, who is an undoubted authority: - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>Lt.-Colonel Repington is of opinion that Singapore will do very well for light cruisers, destroyers, submarines, and aircraft, but is the worst possible Base for a Grand Fleet. &#34; Why,&#34; he asks, &#34; burden the taxpayers with the cost of creating the Singapore Base when Sydney is available with a magnificent harbor at Fort Jackson, which is centrally situated for the defence of Australia and New Zealand? Moreover, the Grand Fleet can steam there by all routes, finding there a harbor whichis as unattractive for hostile submarines as Singapore is the reverse.&#34; </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">I should say that  Colonel Repington  is a higher authority than <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Elliott</inline> ever was or ever will be. <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Percy</inline> Scott and other competent authorities allege that the modern battleship, which costs over &#163;6,000,000 to place in the water, is - useless against the submarine and aeroplane, which cost a mere trifle in comparison. Members of the Labour party contend that for purposes of defence we should construct up-to-date aeroplanes and submarines. Perhaps that would come more easily within our limitations than the construction of a huge navy. According to <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Percy</inline> Scott, it would be the best means of defence. Since 1920 England has spent &#163;1,290,000,000 on her army, navy, and air force. The taxpayers of the &#34;United Kingdom are already paying 56s.10d. per head per annum for defence purposes; the people of Canada are paying 7s. 3d. ; the people of New Zealand, 10s. 10d.; the people of Australia, 17s. 3d. ; and the people of South Africa,11s. 3d. England has increased the amount of taxation per head from 33s. 9d. in 1913-14 , to 56s.10d. in 1922. As the result of the construction of&#34; a naval base at Singapore, further taxation will be loaded upon&#39; the people of that country. If the people of the Dominions are to pay their quota towards the construction of that base, the taxation upon them will also be increased. How much longer will the people . of the world be able to carry this enormous burden? There is a limit to their endurance. Oppressive taxation was the cause of the upheaval inRussia. The mass of the people can be driven a certain distance, but, like the proverbial worm, they turn eventually. Some day the last straw will be added to the load on the camel&#39;s back. No matter in what form taxation is imposed, itfilters through the varied strata of human society until it reaches bedrock. That bedrock is the people, who cannot pass it on, and have to carry it. In the main they are the wage-earners. Some people seem to think that to tax incomes is, the best way to raise revenue, because it places the burden upon those who have large incomes. Some day the worker will awaken &#39;to the fact that the burden is invariably passed on to him. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2390</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0F</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <role />
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                <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Pearce</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Is thehonorable senator in favour of abolishing the income tax? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2390</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KOZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">HOARE, Albert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator HOARE</name>
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            <para>- Yes. The income tax is no good to the working man, because, directly or indirectly, he. pays the bulk of it. Immediately the business man has to pay more for income tax or wages, he increases&#39; the cost of the articles he produces. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2390</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXP</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Edmund</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Drake-Brockman</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- How would the honorable senator balance the Budget ? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2390</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOZ</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">HOARE, Albert</name>
                <name role="display">Senator HOARE</name>
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              <para>- By increasing the tax on unimproved land values. The excuse generally advanced for preparing for war is that to do so preserves the peace. I do not agree with that view. The last war affords proof to the contrary. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Robert</inline> Blatchford in 1910 paid a visit to Germany. On his return to England he warned Great Britain that Germany was preparing for war. Nobody took any notice of him. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Pearce</inline> has said that when he was in England in 1911, Earl - then <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Edward</inline> - Grey, basing his opinion on Germany&#39;s preparations, forecasted that Germany would be prepared for war, and would be ready to strike in 1914. It was a very clever piece of calculation. If the leading militarists and naval authorities of England knew that this preparation was going on, and were not ready when war broke out, who other than they, can be blamed? Germany declared war, so it is argued, because she was ready for war. No nation will declare war unless she thinks she is ready. Germany&#39;s preparations did not insure a continuance of peace. Therefore, no weight, can be attached to the argument that preparedness for war means the maintenance of peace. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2390</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXP</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">DRAKE-BROCKMAN, Edmund</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Drake-Brockman</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- The honorable senator is inconsistent. He suggests that we should not prepare for war when we know that other nations are preparing. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2390</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOZ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">HOARE, Albert</name>
                <name role="display">Senator HOARE</name>
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              <para>- I did not say anything of the kind. I believe that the best assistance which Australia, can render to the British Empire is to be in a position to defend itself. A nation that is being trained in warlike operations is in the same position as a prizefighter. When a prizefighter is fit and well, and is filled with energy, he wants to fight some one, and he is not particular who it is that he fights. In such a way a nation can be trained. The German nation trained its soldiers, and when it considered itself to be properly prepared it looked for war, not caring with whom it went to war. It got war. The shareholders of the leading newspaper companies, the principal private banking institutions, and armament factories throughout the world, are in England. It does not matter who sinks or swims, those shareholders will be on the winning side. Their dividends increase in time of war, not in time of peace. The armament manufacturers instruct the press throughout England to stir up feelings of hatred against some imaginary foe on the other silio of  the  world. In that way war is caused. Then the dividends of the  armament  manufacturers and hanking institutions increase. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>The one way to prevent war :s to do away with all profits from warfare. Sooner or later there will b? a greater war than the last, and it will be waged by the coloured races against the white races. The white races of the world cannot afford to war ou each other and slaughter their members in millions, as they did in the last war, while the coloured races stood by and &#34;laughed up their sleeves.&#34; Wo should endeavour to create peace among the white races, so; that they may be able to stand up when necessary against the coloured populations, by whom numerically they are outnumbered in the proportion of at least two to one. It is believed in some quarters that the League&#39; of Nations will cud war. America proposes to solve the problem by having a World&#39;s Court of Justice, which seemingly would work on the same principles as the League of Nations. I do not believe that the League of Nations will end war. I hope the day will come when the working classes of the world will arrive at a common understanding and say, &#34; We refuse to fight against our brother workmen.&#39;&#39; When that stage is. reached I feel confident that war and bloodshed will cease. That can be brought about only by the education of the people. Knowledge is power. Power means victory. Victory means progress. Progress means the removal of the barriers that imprison the souls and the lives of men. That is the only way in which we can reach our goal. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Elliott,</inline> some days ago, by interjection, stated that the Labour party did not believe in military training. The Labour party behoves that compulsory military training should bo dispensed with and a voluntary system reverted to. That it has adopted the correct view is proved by the fact that, at the conclusion of the last war, the leading military authorities said that the Australian soldier was the best soldier in the world. I claim that the Australian soldier was the best because he went away as a free man under a voluntary system. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2391</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JRT</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">COX, Charles</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Cox</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Those men were all trained compulsorily. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2391</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOZ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">HOARE, Albert</name>
                <name role="display">Senator HOARE</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- The honorable senator pleased himself when he went to the Front. Every man had the right to do so. It is well known that thousands of men left Australia who had never shouldered a gun or had any military t.raining. I agree that they were given a certain amount of training on Salisbury Plains. As the Australian soldier was admittedly the best in the world, why should money be wasted on a compulsory training system? The Labour party believes, with Admiral, <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Percy</inline> Scott, that an up-to-date fleet of submarines and aeroplanes offers the best means of defence. My mind is carried back to the time when the Deakin Government &#39;offered to the British Government a Dreadnought which was to cost something like &#163;2,000,000. The answer received from Great Britain was that Australia could best assist England by being prepared and able to defend her own shores. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para class="block">Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>2391</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>TARIFF BOARD RECOMMENDATIONS</title>
          <page.no>2391</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>2391</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KBJ</name.id>
              <electorate>South AustraliaHonorary Minister</electorate>
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">WILSON, Reginald</name>
              <name role="display">Senator WILSON</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - <inline font-style="italic">{By leave.)</inline> -I move - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>That the  Clerk  of. the Senate have leave to return to the Trade and Customs Department the paper &#34; Schedule showing recommendations  of Tariff Board and Ministerial action in connexion therewith &#34; laid on the table of the Senate on 5th July, 1923. </para>
          <para class="block">This volume contains many little explanations in regard to details of Tariff matters. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2391</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Needham</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Has it been printed ? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2391</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KBJ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">WILSON, Reginald</name>
                <name role="display">Senator WILSON</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- It has not been printed, and there seems to be no necessity to have it printed. I assure honorable senators that a copy of these papers was laid on the table in another place, and will be available to honorable senators if at any time they require it. There are only two copies, one of which is required for reference in the Department. If this copy is returned to the Department the other will remain the property of Parliament. It seems unnecessary to incur the expense of printing a document dealing with details of Tariff matters. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2391</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXJ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">NEEDHAM, Edward</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Needham</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Documents of much less importance are printed at much greater expense. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>2392</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KBJ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">WILSON, Reginald</name>
                <name role="display">Senator WILSON</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- This is not the report of the Tariff Board, but simply a statement and interpretation of minor details of administration. The report has been printed. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
          <para>Senate adjournedat  10.1  p.m. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
  </chamber.xscript>
</hansard>