19290320_senate_11_120.xml

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  <session.header>
    <date>1929-03-20</date>
    <parliament.no>11</parliament.no>
    <session.no>1</session.no>
    <period.no>0</period.no>
    <chamber>SENATE</chamber>
    <page.no>1486</page.no>
    <proof>0</proof>
  </session.header>
  <chamber.xscript>
    <para class="block">Senate. </para>
    <business.start>
      <day.start>1929-03-20</day.start>
      <para>The <inline font-weight="bold">President (Senator the Hon. Sir John Newlands)</inline> took the chair at 3 p.m., and read prayers. </para>
    </business.start>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>PAPERS</title>
        <page.no>1486</page.no>
        <type>papers</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>The following papers were presented :  - </para>
      <quote>
        <para>Commonwealth Bank Act - Balance-sheets of </para>
        <para>Commonwealth Bank of Australia and Commonwealth Savings Bank as at 3 1st December, 1928, and Statement of the Liabilities and Assets of the Note Issue Department at 31st December, 1928; together with Auditor-General&#39;s Reports thereon. </para>
        <para>Seat of Government (Administration) Act - By-laws - Statutory Rules 1929 - </para>
        <para>No. 20 - Transportation. </para>
        <para>No. 21 - Protection of Lands. </para>
        <para>No. 22 - Accommodation. </para>
        <para>Oil - Particulars of Expenditure during past six years insearch for, in Australia and the Territories. </para>
      </quote>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>1486</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>SEARCH FOR OIL</title>
          <page.no>1486</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1486</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K0F</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Sir GEORGE PEARCE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- On the 15th March, <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Barnes</inline> asked me a question, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice,</inline> in regard to the amount expended in the search for oil during each of the past six years in Australia and the Territories. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <para>The following particulars are now available :  - </para>
        <para class="block">
          <graphic href="120332192903204_0_0.jpg" />
        </para>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>1486</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>PREFERENTIAL TARIFF</title>
          <page.no>1486</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1486</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate>WESTERN AUSTRALIA</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Minister for Trade and Customs, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>Has he seen it reported in the <inline font-style="italic">Canberra Times</inline> of the 7th February, that the  President  of the United States of America had made a statement to the effect that vast quantities of American goods had found their way through </para>
            </item>
          </list>
          <para class="block">Canadian ports, and by that means were reaping the benefit of preferential rates obtaining amongst British Dominions? </para>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="2.">
              <para>If such statement is correct, has it been discovered that any of these goods have found their way to this country? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="3.">
              <para>If so, with what result! </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1486</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KTR</name.id>
              <electorate>SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role>Honorary Minister</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MCLACHLAN, Alexander</name>
              <name role="display">Senator McLACHLAN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The Minister for Trade and Customs has furnished the following reply: - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>Yes. 2 and 3. There is no reason to think that the statement is correct, and it seems most improbable that the  President  made such a statement. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>WINE OVERSEAS MARKETING BILL</title>
        <page.no>1486</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Bill read a third time </para>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>WINE GRAPES CHARGES BILL</title>
        <page.no>1486</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para class="block">(No. 2). </para>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Second Reading</title>
          <page.no>1486</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>
          <inline font-weight="bold">Senator OGDEN</inline>(Tasmania - Honorary </para>
        <para>Minister) &#91;3.5&#93;. - I move - </para>
        <quote>
          <para>That the bill be now read a second time. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">This bill is supplementary to the Wine Overseaa Marketing Bill, which passed, through this chamber yesterday. It imposes a maximum charge of 5s. per ton on grapes used in the manufacture of wine, in order to provide a fund to enable the control board to be created under the Wine Overseas Marketing Bill to function properly. Although the measure provides for a maximum levy of 5s. per ton, it is not imperative that the full rate be levied. Since the measure was introduced in another place it has been altered by the inclusion of a new definition by which a winery or distillery which treats less than 10 tons of grapes will not be called upon to pay the levy. In order to protect the grape-growers, the bill requires the levy to be paid by the wineries and distilleries. Should they avail themselves of the bounty on wine, they must pay a fixed amount per ton for the grapes they use. The levy may not be deducted from the price paid for the grapes. Should the bounty not be availed of, there will be no obligation to pay the fixed price for grapes. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1486</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JZ6</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">O&#39;HALLORAN, Michael</name>
              <name role="display">Senator O&#39;Halloran</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- What is the estimated annual cost of the control board ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1487</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JZR</name.id>
              <electorate>TASMANIA</electorate>
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role>Honorary Minister</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">OGDEN, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator OGDEN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I am unable to supply that information at present. A levy of 5s. a ton on grapes repreesnts about&#189;d. a gallon on dry wine and about  &#190;d.  a gallon on sweet wine. As in a normal season about 120,000 tons of grapes are manufactured into wine, the maximum levy would represent a total income of about &#163;30,000 per annum. The money so collected will be paid into a fund to be used by the board in advertising Australian wine and to meet the general administrative costs connected with its marketing. Any further information sought by honorable members will be furnished when the bill reaches the committee stage. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1487</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JTL</name.id>
              <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator DALY</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - The Minister has already pointed out that this bill is necessary to give effect to legislation passed yesterday. The Opposition does not propose to oppose it. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
          <para>Bill read a second time, and reported from committee without amendment. </para>
          <para>Standing and Sessional Orders suspended and bill passed throughits remaining stages. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>ECONOMIC RESEARCH BILL</title>
        <page.no>1487</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Bill received from the House of Representatives. </para>
      <para>Suspension of Standing Orders. </para>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>1487</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>K0F</name.id>
            <electorate>WESTERN AUSTRALIA</electorate>
            <party>ALP; NAT from 1917; UAP from 1931</party>
            <role>Vice-President of the Executive Council</role>
            <in.gov>0</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
            <name role="display">Senator Sir GEORGE PEARCE</name>
          </talker>
          <para>&#91;3.13&#93;. - I move - </para>
        </talk.start>
        <quote>
          <para>That so much of the Standing and Sessional Orders be suspended as would prevent the bill being passed through all its stages without delay. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">My object in moving this motion is to enable the second reading of this bill to be moved to-day. I do not propose to proceed now beyond the first-reading stage, but should the debate on the Supply Bill finish early I desire to move the second reading of this bill at a later hour. In the circumstances, I feel sure that honorable senators will agree to the motion. </para>
        <para>Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
        <para>Bill (on motion by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Sir George</inline> Pearce) read a first time. </para>
      </speech>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>SUPPLY BILL (No. 1) 1929-30</title>
        <page.no>1487</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Second Reading</title>
          <page.no>1487</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1487</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K0F</name.id>
              <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role>Vice-President of the Executive Council</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Sir GEORGE PEARCE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - I move - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para class="block">That the bill be now read a second time. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">The object of this measure is to appropriate sufficient revenue for the services of the Commonwealth during the first two months of the next financial year. It is anticipated that Parliament will adjourn shortly and will not resume until the beginning of the new financial <inline font-style="italic">year.</inline> In the meantime, it is necessary to make provision for the services of government to be carried on after 1st July next. The amount which Parliament is asked to appropriate is &#163;5,705,573, made up as follows: - </para>
          <para class="block">
            <graphic href="120332192903204_1_0.jpg" />
          </para>
          <para class="block">The items making up these sums are based on the present year&#39;s Estimates, and provision is made to meet the first pay-day in September. No new proposal is included. In addition, the usual provision is made for - </para>
          <para class="block">
            <graphic href="120332192903204_1_1.jpg" />
          </para>
          <para class="block">The total to be appropriated is therefore &#163;5,705,573. </para>
          <para>It is not intended to submit a loan bill for next year until the budget has been presented to Parliament, but in order to enable loan works and services in progress on 30th June, 1929, to be continued, funds will be made available from the Treasurer&#39;s advance. The sum of &#163;1,650,000 which Parliament is asked to appropriate for &#34; Advance to the Treasurer,&#34; will be temporarily used for loan services as already indicated ; to carry on works and services provided for during the current year under &#34; Additions, new works, &#38;c, payable from revenue,&#34; and to meet miscellaneous and unforeseen expenditure. The relative sums involved are estimated thus - </para>
          <para class="block">
            <graphic href="120332192903204_2_0.jpg" />
          </para>
          <para class="block">When the Estimates for 1929-30 are brought down, Parliament will be asked to make specific appropriations for the services involved. </para>
          <para>Immediately Parliament resumes after the adjournment, the usual financial statement will be submitted for consideration. In the meantime, it is fitting that some indication should be given&#39; of the results to date in the present financial year. As honorable senators are aware, the financial position of the revenue account of the Commonwealth is largely governed by customs and excise receipts. In 1926-27 the receipts from this source amounted to &#163;43,552,000 ; in 1927-28 the receipts were &#163;41,446,000, or a decline of &#163;2,106,000. This decline was almost wholly due to the reduced purchases of luxuries, brought about by the unfavorable seasonal conditions and the resultant temporary depression. In the budget for the current year, it was estimated that the revenue from customs and excise would bo &#163;43,300,000; and in arriving at this estimate, the Treasurer was influenced by past experiences, which showed that, after a period of depression, there was an immediate and full recovery in the customs and excise revenue. Guided by those experiences and with the prospect of a good harvest and an increased wool clip, justification was found for the estimated revenue of &#163;43,300,000, which was &#163;252,000 less than the actual collections for 1926-27, notwithstanding that in the meantime additional duties, estimated to yield &#163;500,000, had been imposed on motor chassis. For the first three months of the present financial year, the collections amounted to &#163;9,503,000. Compared with the collections for the previous year, this represented a decline of &#163;1,763,000, which was mainly due to unfavorable seasonal conditions and shipping difficulties. Since October, however, there has been a marked improvement, and the receipts for the eight months ended 28th February amount to &#163;27,850,000. Compared with the <inline font-style="italic">pro rata</inline> budget estimate, this represents a shortage of approximately &#163;1,000,000. </para>
          <para>It is not possible to forecast with reliability what the receipts will be for the remainder of the financial year, but the general trading position is now much more favorable than it was during the first three months of the year, and it is quite possible that a good deal of the leeway will be made up. It is estimated that other transactions, taken as a whole, will produce a result approximately equal to the budget estimates. The result for the year will, therefore, be almost wholly governed by the customs and excise collections during the last four months of the financial year. </para>
          <para>In framing the budget for the present year, the Government fully appreciated the need for economy, and it will continue to exercise a policy of prudent finance. </para>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1488</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K8P</name.id>
              <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">THOMPSON, William</name>
              <name role="display">Senator THOMPSON</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - I avail myself of this opportunity to refer briefly to the commendable step the Government has taken in appointing a commercial representative in Canada. In this connexion I have received two letters from Mr.F. Maclure Sclanders, F.R.G.S., Commissioner of the Saint John Board of Trade, New Brunswick. The first letter is dated 11th January, 1929, and contains the following :  - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>Since our Australian friends visited here, I have devoted considerable thought to lines along which trade between our two great countries might be stimulated and expanded. We would like to buy much more from Australia; but the tendency is to talk raisins and dried fruits, and forget that there are other lines which we might buy from you to mutual advantage. </para>
            <para>With regard to raisins, however, I understand that you have not yet developed the seedless raisins, and, of course, as the main urge of these times is to proceed along the line of least resistance, the housewife naturally buys seedless raisins. If these can he produced satisfactorily and profitably in California, why should not our brethren in Australia respond to the housewife&#39;s demand for the line of least resistance by also producing the seedless raisin? It seems to me that the secret of export success is to give foreign markets just what they demand. </para>
            <para>My feeling is that there ought to be a much larger demand in Canada for your beautiful wines. I do not know whether you have any proper representation of this line in Canada; but I do believe that, even if you have, there is a far bigger field awaiting you, and that will certainly respond to energetic up-to-date salesmanship. </para>
            <para>There is perhaps no aspect of life that  has  been more definitely affected by the present craving for the line of least resistance than food products. Nowadays, the ambition is to reduce domestic cooking to an absolute minimum. As <inline font-style="italic">a</inline> result, the demands for the readytoeat foods in various forms is increasing by leaps and bounds. Nor is this demand confined merely to canned fruits, vegetables, and soups; it also extends to fish and meat products, and it is inevitably destined to keep on expanding in a very marked measure. </para>
            <para>I just learned, with some considerable pleasure, that a certain brand of Australian canned peaches is considered to bc the best that comes to this market, and I am striving to interest local wholesale grocers and brokers in your canned fruits. </para>
            <para>So far as citrus fruits are concerned, I do not just know what the position would be, or how your Australian fruit could compete with the Californian and Florida products; but if you care to send mc any figures, I shall be glad to go thoroughly into the matter and let you know. </para>
            <para>Is there any reason why Australia should not manufacture marmalade for export? Long ago, I remember eating Australian honey, which was of wonderful quality. Within the past year our Canadian farmers, particularly in the west, have become very much interested in honey production and have gone into it quite largely. They find it an easy and profitable adjunct; and I believe that their market is largely in the Old Country. Might we not do something with you in honey? </para>
            <para>Then, what about jams and jellies ? Is your labour too costly to admit of successful competition with Old Country producers: or might the larger crop yield on your land offset your dearer labour charges? </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">The second communication is exceedingly pertinent It is dated 14th January, 1929, and says: - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>It seems to mc that in order to keep your finger on the pulse of your Canadian trade potentialities, it might bc a productive move to appoint an Australian government representative on this side. The familiarity of such an official with products of your great country would place him in a good position to carry on productive activities. My own respectful conviction is that the development of  inter-empire  trade demands as a first essential step an interchange of commercial representatives by the countries composing the Empire. Such representation would seem all the more necessary in the case of two great countries such as ours, whose present trade relations arc so much smaller than they should lie. It is a simple business proposition; and I am satisfied that the development of much larger Canadian buying from Australia is a problem quite capable of solution, if approached by thoughtful business men in a thoroughly business-like way. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">I shall be pleased to inform <inline font-weight="bold">Mr.</inline> Sclanders  that the appointment has been made, and I do not think it would be amiss if </para>
          <para class="block">I placed these letters at the disposal of our Trade Commissioner to Canada. But in my opinion a further step should be taken, not altogether by the Government which has already taken action by appointing a trade commissioner, but by the manufacturers and producers of Australia. I was very much struck recently by the advice given by the Prince of Wales that it was highly desirable that a salesmanship campaign should be commenced throughout the Empire.  His  Royal Highness sounded the note that it would be so much better if the bosses themselves could go abroad and introduce their products. It seems to me now that the Commonwealth Government has taken the forward step of appointing a trade commissioner to Canada, it would be fitting if our manufacturers and producers could, themselves, visit Canada or send good commercial representatives over there to increase the trade that Australia ought to be doing with that dominion. </para>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1489</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JXZ</name.id>
              <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">DUNCAN, Walter</name>
              <name role="display">Senator DUNCAN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - This is a suitable occasion to consider the position into which, in the opinion of quite a number of people, Australia is drifting financially, and to urge upon the Government and Parliament the necessity for endeavouring to do something to place our finances on a safer footing than they are to-day. In his Inst Budget speech the Treasurer announced that the deficit amounted to &#163;2,628,000. Already this year we are, approximately, &#163;1,000,000 short of what he estimated the revenue would be at this period of the year, and at the end of the year the current deficit will probably be as great as that of last year. We must realize that we are building up a lot of trouble for ourselves in the near future. The essence of good government, in my opinion, is the ability to manage the finances in such a way as to provide for .all reasonable services and balance the national ledger. A substantial surplus is not necessarily evidence of careful administration. On the contrary, it indicates that the Treasurer is taking out of the pockets of the taxpayers large sums of money which should remain with the people for investment in commercial and other enterprises calculated to develop this country. On the other hand, substantial deficits such as that which we had last year, and which, it is feared, will be our experience this year, can only result in serious financial disorganization, and eventually must mean an increase in taxation on an already overburdened community. Proposals to increase taxation cause deep resentment, but I am afraid that as events are trending we are approaching the time when the Treasurer will find it necessary to take this unpopular step. If this should become necessary the Government and its supporters will have an unpleasant task to justify the administration of our finances. I should like to see this difficult situation obviated. I had hoped that the Government would be able to keep down public expenditure in accordance with the promise given by the Treasurer, and in fulfilment of our election pledges, that the affairs of this country would be so conducted by a sound business government that it would be impossible for critics with justice to make any charge against the administration. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>I am aware, of course, that one of the privileges of the Opposition is to direct the searchlight of criticism upon the shortcomings of the Government ; and I regret, therefore, that the Government has not been able to reduce public expenditure, a course to which it was more or less committed. So far from this, Government services have expanded in many directions, with the result that to-day we find ourselves committed to expenditures which many people are beginning to think are beyond the capacity of the Commonwealth to meet. Let me give one illustration of this steady increase in departmental expenditure. Honorable senators will find all the details in the fifth report of the Commonwealth Public Service Board, presented to the Senate on the Sth February of this year. That document shows that there has been a substantial growth of the permanent, exempt and temporary staffs of the Public Service since 1924. The figures relating to the permanent staff only are as follow : - </para>
          <para class="block">
            <graphic href="120332192903204_4_4.jpg" />
          </para>
          <para class="block">The average salary paid to these permanent officers in 1924 was &#163;252, and the average salary paid in 1928 was &#163;280. A further examination of the figures shows that the total number of Commonwealth public servants - permanent, exempt and temporary officers - in 1928 was 47,878, and that the total of salaries paid was &#163;11,214,669. These figures are somewhat alarming when compared with the population, and the financial resources of the Commonwealth. The Leader of the Senate in his second-reading speech today gave the estimated customs and excise receipts at &#163;43,000,000, so it will be seen that the total salaries paid to our public servants is just about one-fourth of the amount received by way of collections from the customs. When we remember that the Commonwealth depends largely upon customs receipts for the carrying on of its various services, we must confess that our position is far from satisfactory. </para>
          <para>It has been estimated that one out of every 125 persons in Australia is a Commonwealth public servant. If we take into account the number of public servants employed by the State Governments, together with their families, we find that one out of every seven persons in the Commonwealth is either a Government employee or the dependant of a Government servant. I wish it to be clearly understood that in these observations I am not casting any reflection upon our Commonwealth public servants. They have been invited to enter the employ of the various Governments by guarantees of permanent positions, and I have no doubt that they are discharging their duties to the entire satisfaction of the heads of their various departments; but we must ask ourselves if the time has not arrived when, in view of our difficult financial position and the urgent need foi increasing production, the Commonwealth is not able to carry such a load. It seems to me that it would be wise to encourage more of our people to enter into one of the many avenues of production open to them. The Government, from time to time, passes legislation which I am afraid aggravates the trouble to which I am directing attention. Nearly every measure passed by this Parliament adds in some way or other to the number of public servants employed in either a temporary or permanent capacity. Should not we, as taxpayers, apart from our position as representatives of the people in this chamber, consider whether it is not possible to carry on some of these new governmental activities without adding to the existing personnel of the public service? </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1491</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K8P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">THOMPSON, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Thompson</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Is the honorable senator suggesting that the Commonwealth public service is over manned. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1491</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXZ</name.id>
                <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
                <party>NAT</party>
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DUNCAN, Walter</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DUNCAN</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I am not suggesting anything of the kind. I believe that the average public servant has quite enough to do; but it seems to me that the public service is being overloaded. It has been said by critics of governmental activities that if a public servant is placed in an office in charge of any responsible work it is not long before he gathers a staff around him, and very soon he finds himself head of a department. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1491</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JLM</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">ABBOTT, Percy</name>
                <name role="display">Senator P P Abbott</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- How can the increase in the public service be prevented ? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1491</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXZ</name.id>
                <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
                <party>NAT</party>
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DUNCAN, Walter</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DUNCAN</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- It can be prevented only by the exercise of the most careful supervision by the Government and Parliament. Unless this growth in our public service is checked I am afraid the day will come when, because of our financial obligations, a Government, to give effect to an insistent demand for economy will be compelled to order the wholesale dismissal of permanent employees. We saw it happen in Australia in the old days. When the crash came after the boom in Victoria, civil servants were discharged in great numbers, and were sent walking about the streets seeking employment. I would rather see the governmental activities extended more gradually, putting the extra work, as far as possible, upon the departments already in existence, and upon the officers already in employment there. It should be possible to expand the activities of a department without greatly increasing its staff, or overloading the officers. This sort of thing is frequently done in ordinary commercial concerns. When a firm finds that it is faced with the necessity of expanding its business to meet some growing demand, it does not create a new set of departments; it simply re-organizes its staff, which is the common-sense way of doing it. Then, when the demand has been met, the business is not faced with the responsibility of providing for an inflated staff whose service may not be required. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1491</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KPQ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">KINGSMILL, Walter</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Kingsmill</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Is not the business of this country expanding? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1491</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXZ</name.id>
                <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
                <party>NAT</party>
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DUNCAN, Walter</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DUNCAN</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Of course it is expanding, but that should not necessarily involve increasing the staff of the Public Service. A teller in a bank may ordinarily take so much money a day. Even if that amount is doubled, it may not be necessary to put on another teller. There has been a considerable increase in the staff of the Customs Department. The Minister has been careful to explain why the revenue of this department has fallen off, but he has not explained why, although the business has decreased, the staff has been added to. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>There is much food for thought in this report of the Commonwealth Public Service Commissioners. Sooner or later the people of this country will want to know why we have allowed such abuses to creep in. It is better that the Government should grapple with the position now than leave it until they are forced by an indignant public to take some action. The taxpayers of Australia are becoming restless. For years past, they have been led to expect a decrease in taxation. Notwithstanding what hour or able senators opposite may say, many of those who pay taxes are no better off after they have been paid than those who are not called upon to pay anything. The taxpayers are beginning to feel the pinch of mounting costs, and ever-increasing burdens. Eventually they must show the resentment which, so far, they have been slow to express. This point of view is worthy of consideration, more especially as those parties who support the Government have given pledges to the electors that they will exercise economy in government. </para>
          <para>Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
          <para>Bill read a second time. </para>
          <para class="italic">
            <inline font-style="italic">In committee:</inline>
          </para>
          <para>Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to. </para>
          <para>Schedule. </para>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1491</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K3X</name.id>
              <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">CARROLL, William</name>
              <name role="display">Senator CARROLL</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - In connexion with the proposed vote for the Prime Minister&#39;s Department, I wish to make reference &#39;o the fact that last year, when I was in London, I noticed that an uncalled-for attack had been made by an honorable member of another place on an officer employed in the High Commissioner&#39;s office. I had the good fortune to meet this man, who is known as the social officer, and am convinced that he is well fitted to occupy his position. The principal charge against him seemed to be that he is not an Australian. It is true, I believe, that he was not born in Australia, but he was brought out here by his parents when a child, and educated at St. Peter&#39;s College, Adelaide. Therefore, to all intents and purposes he is an Australian. He was also charged with the offence of wearing an eyeglass. I believe that he does wear a monocle, but very able men, such men as <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Joseph</inline> Chamberlain, his son, <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Austen</inline> Chamberlain, and even a number of Australians, have also worn them. This officer was also charged that, although very obsequious and attentive to any one who happened to occupy a prominent position, he was just the reverse to those unfortunate Australians who asked his assistance when they had nothing in particular to recommend them. Those, it was alleged, he treated very cavalierly, indeed. From my own observation, I can say that he was ju3t as attentive to those who came to him with no distinction whatever as he was to the most important visitors. I have in mind a couple who called upon him, having only just arrived in London from Western Australia, where they had been farming for many years. The man occupied no official position, and had no one to recommend him, but through the good offices of the social officer the couple received an invitation to a garden party at Buckingham Palace. It hurt me to see the work of this officer spoken of so disparagingly, when he was unable to defend himself, or get any one to defend him. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1492</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K09</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">PAYNE, Herbert</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Payne</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- On what grounds was the attack launched? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1492</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K3X</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">CARROLL, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator CARROLL</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I do not know. Possibly the person who made it may have had some grounds. I can speak of the man only as I found him. Speaking generally, the officers employed in the High Commissioner&#39;s Office in London carry out their duties in a way which should make Australia proud of that office. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1492</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K2L</name.id>
              <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator REID</name>
            </talker>
            <para>.- I wish to pay a tribute to the work being done by the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research in connexion with the eradication of prickly pear in Queensland and elsewhere. I have been interested in this problem for many years, and, as a result of the work being done by the council, headway is at last being made against the pest. During the last election campaign I travelled through large areas of the pear country, and I was astonished to see the ravages made on the pear by the cactoblastis. The cochineal insect is also doing its work, but more slowly. The cactoblastis was working like the communists, who are white-anting the trade unions of Australia. So much damage to the prickly pear has been done by it that in some parts the dead pear has been burnt off, and families are now settled on the land, growing wheat. If the present expenditure had been doubled, or even trebled, we should have been amply repaid by the results which have so far been achieved. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1492</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K09</name.id>
              <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">PAYNE, Herbert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator PAYNE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>.- I am pleased that <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Carroll</inline> has brought under the notice of the committee the disparaging nature of the remarks made in another place concerning an official in the High Commissioner&#39;s Office in London. Last year I had an opportunity of witnessing the attention and courtesy shown to visitors by the staff at Australia House. Possibly I had a better opportunity than <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Carroll</inline> of judging the work of this office, as I was attached to a party of 640 Australians, whose individual desires had to be considered. I was brought into close contact with the official referred to, and all the members of the party to which I was attached expressed their gratitude and appreciation of the great kindness and courtesy shown them by him and other officials at Australia House. All the officials there are actuated by a desire to make Australia House what it should be to the Australian people. The reception officer, who was in the library room when I was in London, and who has unfortunately since passed away, was the embodiment of courtesy and kindness, and his knowledge of British and continental affairs was always at the disposal of those seeking information. I regret that an aspersion has been cast on the officer referred to by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Carroll,</inline> as I know from personal experience that he carries out his duties in a highly efficient manner. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>In connexion with the proposed vote for the Department of Health, I wish to bring under the notice of the Minister, a request made to me some time ago by the Launceston Hospital authorities in connexion with the supply of radium. On my return from abroad I received a letter from the hospital to the effect that, whilst they were grateful for the radium loaned, the quantity was insufficient for their needs. I communicated with the Prime Minister&#39;s Department on the matter, and later I received from the hospital authorities a copy of a communication in reply to their request, a portion of which reads - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>I have to add that all the radium purchased lias huon allocated and that it will not be possible to consider any further distribution until sufficient experience has been gained to justify a reasoned opinion as to the value nf this method of treatment, and as to the necessity for the purchase of any further supplies of radium. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">The letter I received from the secretary of the Launceston Hospital, dated 11th December, reads - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>I have to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 1st instant, addressed to the  chairman,  with thanks. In reply, I am directed to enclose herewith for your perusal a copy of a letter received from the secretary to the Prime Minister. I am also directed to add that the amount of radium loaned to this hospital, viz. - 20 milligrams, is altogether inadequate, and in the opinion of my committee, a proper portion has not been  alloted to Tasmania; yon will gather from the very large number of hospitals that are served by the Launceston Public Hospital, that this is so. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">The hospital authorities deeply appreciate  the  opportunities afforded them to treat patients with radium, and I hope their request will receive the consideration of the Minister. If this method of treatment is found satisfactory, I trust the Launceston Hospital and other similar institutions in need of radium will receive supplies as speedily as possible. As  1  he preservation of human life is of greater importance than any thing else, I  arn  sure that, if experience during the past few months has been satisfactory, the Government will supplement the supply of radium  to  this hospital. </para>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1493</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KTR</name.id>
              <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role>Honorary Minister</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MCLACHLAN, Alexander</name>
              <name role="display">Senator MCLACHLAN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - The observations of <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Payne</inline> concerning a supply of radium for the Launceston Hospital will be brought under the notice of the Minister for Health, and will, no doubt, receive his early and sympathetic attention. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1493</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K09</name.id>
              <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">PAYNE, Herbert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator PAYNE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>.- I should like to obtain some information from the Minister in regard to item No. 1 of Division 120 of War Services, which reads - &#34; Graves of soldiers - contribution to Graves Commission for Commonwealth share of cost of care and maintenance, &#163;16,400.&#34; According to last year&#39;s financial papers, the expenditure in this connexion was &#163;94,950. Some doubt exists concerning the method by which this money is allocated. The impression prevails that a large sum of money to which Australia has contributed has been funded and that the return from this will always be sufficient to carry on the work of the Graves Commission, which is of the greatest interest to the Australian people. The use of the words &#34; care and maintenance &#34; suggests that this is an annually recurring item. I should like to take this opportunity to make a brief reference to the work which has been, and is still, being carried out in Europe by the War Graves Commission. When I learned that the bulk of construction work had been completed, and the staff was to be materially reduced, I thought it desirable and in keeping with the sentiments of the Australian people to see if an Australian could not be retained on the attenuated staff. I met several Australians employed by the Commission, and made some inquiries concerning the calibre of the officers in its employ. I was informed that one of the officers possessing, an excellent character, and whose work had been most highly spoken of at headquarters, was able and willing to remain if his services could be retained. On my return to Australia I communicated with the Prime Minister&#39;s department urging the retention of the services of this officer, who is now in England, and was informed that that could not be arranged. I wish to pay a tribute not only to the officers, but to every unit of the War Graves Commission, for the excellent work they have preformed in </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para class="block">France and in Belgium. One cannot adequately describe the magnificence of the work. The cemeteries are laid out with such care, that instead of being unattractive spots on the landscape, they are as beautiful as cemeteries can be made. Particular attention has been given by the gardeners to each individual grave. In visiting many of the cemeteries I found that the attendants were so keen in their work that they were removing plants showing signs of decay in order that the floral beauty of the plots should be preserved. The lawns are beautifully kept; there is no rubbish or weeds to mar their beauty. I trust that these remarks will give some little comfort to the thousands of people in Australia who have loved ones lying in these cemeteries, but are unable to visit their graves. 1 trust that the Minister will be able to give the information I seek regarding the manner in which the upkeep of these cemeteries is financed. </para>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1494</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KLU</name.id>
              <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role>Minister for Defence</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">GLASGOW, William</name>
              <name role="display">Senator GLASGOW</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - The amount set out in this bill for the upkeep of soldiers&#39; graves is a portion of Australia&#39;s annual contribution of &#163;94,950. That is 6.33 per cent, of the total British contribution of &#163;1,500,000. The contribution is to be paid annually for six and a half years, as from 1925-26. The sum thus provided will cover the cost of completion of cemeteries, and provide an endowment fund of &#163;5,000,000, the interest on which will be sufficient to maintain the cemeteries in good condition for all time. I was pleased to hear from <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Payne</inline> that the cemeteries on the various battlefields of France are so well kept.  His  report supplements statements made from time to time by relatives and friends of deceased soldiers who have visited the cemeteries, and have expressed their appreciation of the work done by the War Graves Commission. Early this year the Defence Department received from Australia House some photographs of cemeteries on the battlefields, which I wish the relatives of fallen soldiers could see, for they would then realize what care and attention is devoted to the graves. I desire also to refer to the excellent work done by architects and others who have designed gates and buildings for erection in the cemeteries. These buildings and gates are indeed things of beauty. We should be grateful to the War Graves Commission for the excellent work it has done and is doing. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1494</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K8P</name.id>
              <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">THOMPSON, William</name>
              <name role="display">Senator THOMPSON</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - I wish to impress on the Government the desirability of reestablishing a train service between Sydney and Brisbane on each day of the week, including Sunday. At one time there was a daily service, but some years ago an alteration was made and the daily train has not since been reinstated. There is daily communication by train between Sydney and Melbourne and between Melbourne and Adelaide. We can scarcely expect a similar service between Adelaide and Perth for some time, but there is no reason why there should not be a train each day between Sydney and Brisbane. In the hope that the Postmaster-General could assist in establishing a daily service, I recently had a question placed on the notice-paper, but the reply was rather unsatisfactory. I realize that the Postmaster-General cannot bring much pressure to bear on the Governments of Queensland and New South Wales at the present time. I understand that the New South Wales Government is prepared to re-establish a daily service, but that the Queensland Government is not at present willing to do so. I suggest that when the Kyogle to South Brisbane line is opened an opportunity will be given the Government to insist on a daily train between Sydney and Brisbane, and I hope that that opportunity will not be lost sight of. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1494</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KTR</name.id>
              <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role>Honorary Minister</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MCLACHLAN, Alexander</name>
              <name role="display">Senator MCLACHLAN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - I understand that the Postmaster-General has done his utmost to secure a daily mail service between Sydney and &#39; Brisbane, but that his efforts, so far, have been without success. I am grateful to <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Thompson</inline> for the suggestion that the matter should be considered when the new line from Kyogle to South Brisbane is available for traffic. The Government will keep his suggestion in mind. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>Schedule agreed to. </para>
          <para>Preamble and title agreed to. </para>
          <para>Bill reported without requests. </para>
          <para>Standing and Sessional Orders suspended, and bill passed through its remaining stages. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>ECONOMIC RESEARCH BILL</title>
        <page.no>1495</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Second Reading</title>
          <page.no>1495</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1495</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K0F</name.id>
              <electorate>Wes tern Australia</electorate>
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role>Vice-President of the Executive Council</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Sir GEORGE PEARCE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>&#91;4.28&#93;. -  I move - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>That the bill be now read a second time. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">The passing of this measure will not mean the setting up of an elaborate department, nor will it involve the appointment of many additional officers. It is proposed to establish a Bureau of Economic Research, and to appoint a Director, but a great deal of work which he will supervise - the dissection of data and statistics - will be collected through the Statistician&#39;s Department, the machinery of which will be made available to him. Although the bureau will not require a large clerical staff, there can be no doubt as to the necessity for the bureau itself. Life is becoming more complex every day, and owing to that net-work of complications which we call modern business or modern commerce, it is very difficult to take any political action without, as the result of thorough research, knowing exactly what is likely to be its repercussion. Examples have come under the attention of the Government and, I am sure, of Parliament, of many well-meant efforts that have gone astray. Our difficulty in Australia is that we are developing a new country where the conditions are in every respect different from those which obtain in other countries. In many cases, we have no precedent to guide us. Causes produce like effects where the conditions are alike, but because the conditions in Australia are not similar to those in older countries, what may be good for an older country may have a harmful and not a beneficial effect upon Australia. There are, however, certain scientific principles that apply in all circumstances just as there are certain welldefined natural laws. Political economy is a well recognized science. It is recognized that scientific methods may be applied to political activities as in other walks of life. Every up-to-date university has a. Chair of Economics, and many scientists devote their lives to economic research. </para>
          <para>I want now to give one or two illustrations of what the Government has in mind in establishing a Bureau of Eco nomic Research. Some time ago it set up what is known as the Development and Migration Commission to advise the Commonwealth and the States in connexion with various developmental schemes that were to be submitted by the States under the  &#163;34,000,000  Migration Agreement. The investigation of these schemes very often necessitates a review of other developmental schemes already in hand. For instance, proposals which have recently been put forward for the extension of development within the river Murray valley have necessitated not only an inquiry into the possibility of the economic utilization of further lands in the valley, but also a review of the economic position of industries already established in the valley. This review has revealed the fact that when the States first embarked on a policy of developing irrigation areas along the river Murray, they made no economic research into the possibilities of the future. Like Topsy, the whole thing just grew. They commenced with irrigation settlements here and there, but no long-sighted view was taken of the production to be aimed at or of the possibility first of marketing the output at a price that would pay, and secondly of the product being able to maintain its place in the markets of Australia, and when it had reached the saturation point in those markets, in the markets of the world. The success that was achieved in the early irrigation settlements of Victoria prompted New South Wales and South Australia , to establish similar settlements. The people of South Australia, seeing that Mildura was growing lemons and oranges profitably, planted orchards of lemon and orange trees without first inquiring whether there was likely to be a market for the increased yield. Very soon, of course, they found themselves in difficulties and in some cases they had to root out their lemon and orange trees and set out on other forms of fruit production. Then it was thought that the canned fruit industry would be a profitable one. Peaches and apricots were planted, but again without any thorough research into the possibility of marketing the fruit, or of the payable character of the product. Again there was a rooting up of trees. The third stage came with the planting of grape <inline font-style="italic">vines with,</inline> a view to producing raisins and currants, and again, to some extent, disaster was met with owing to taking too short-sighted a view. Itsoon became obvious to the Development and Migration Commission that there must be co-ordination among the three State Governments concerned, and the Commonwealth, which, at a later stage, had become a partner in the development of the River Murray Valley. An agreement has now been reached by which, before additional land is brought into use, there must be an inquiry as to the kind of production that should be encouraged on it, whether there is a market for the product, and whether that market is likely to prove payable. In that way it is hoped there will be, in future, proper co-ordination in respect to the development of our lands. </para>
          <para>Let me now give an illustration of how a serious mistake was avoided as a result of an investigation by the Development and Migration Commission. At Leeton, in New South Wales, the settlers had demonstrated that, by the use of machinery and modern methods, rice of an excellent quality could be successfully grown in Australia. The Australian market being open to the Leeton settlers, they were able to make rice-growing pay. Spurred by the success achieved at Leeton, Victoria proposed to devote irrigated areas to rice cultivation, but the Development and Migration Commission was easily able to demonstrate that if this additional area was devoted to rice, more would be produced than Australia could consume. An inquiry is now being made into the possibility of this country being able to export rice and sell it profitably in the markets of the world. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1496</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K8P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">THOMPSON, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Thompson</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- California is doing so. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1496</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0F</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Sir GEORGE PEARCE</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- But California has cheaper labour than we have. I am informed that a large proportion of the labour employed there is Chinese or Japanese. At any rate, this inquiry is now being made and Victoria has agreed not to devote any land to ricegrowing until the point has been cleared up. Under a haphazard system it would undoubtedly have put the extra area under rice and rice would probably have been in the same position as sugar and some of our other products. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <para>In making these investigations the Development and Migration Commission has to consider a number of questions which really can only be answered as the result of economic research. For instance, in an investigation of the dried fruits industry, consideration has to be given to sale prices, freights, and insurance rates, as well as a number of other matters. It is true that a tremendous quantity of data on these points is already available, but it has never been properly collated or dissected by Commonwealth or State departments. Consequently, the Development and Migration Commission has been obliged to devote a great deal of its time to what is really the task of a specialist in economic research. If a Bureau of Economic Research existed, the commission could refer these phases of its inquiries to it, and the director of the bureau, utilizing the machinery at his command, could make available to the commission the result of his research work. The members of the commission would thus be able to devote the whole of their energies to a consideration of the major issues, that is to say, the desirability, feasibility and practicability of the various developmental schemes put forward by the State Governments. </para>
          <para>There is another phase of work which a Director of Economic Research could undertake. The regulation of wages by arbitration involves a study of economic conditions. In order to arrive at a wise determination in respect of the economic effects of an award upon a particular industry, a great deal of economic research has to be undertaken. The Arbitration Court has thus to devote a considerable portion of its time to a task for which it is not particularly adapted, principally because it has not the requisite machinery to undertake it. If a Bureau of Economic. Research were in existence, the Arbitration Court could call upon it to dissect for it the information available in the Statistician&#39;s office, or obtainable elsewhere. Before an Arbitration Court can give a determination, it has to take into consideration such questions as profits, costs, and competition. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1496</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K1L</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">BARNES, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Barnes</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Would the bureau have power to investigate watered stock? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <para>
            <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Sir GEORGE</inline>PEARCE.Yes; the capital of the companies involved, whether it is legitimate capital or watered, and what should he regarded as a fair return on the capital invested are readily subjects for dissection and examination. </para>
          <para>Australia has declared for a protectionist tariff, but the most ardent protectionist does not desire protection to be used as a shield for inefficiency.We want our industries to be efficient. We do not want to shelter inefficiency on the part of either the employer or the employee by means of high protective duties. The Tariff Board, in the many inquiries which it has conducted preparatory to the presentation of reports, has been failed upon to do a vast amount of economic research in relation to the industries concerned. The Government also felt the need for expert assistance in connexion with an investigation that was made into the cotton industry. When I was Minister for Home and Territories, now designated the Department of Home Affairs, I administered the cotton bounty, and from time to time I attended conferences with representatives of the cotton growers and cotton users to consider what would be a fair measure of assistance to give to the growers. I have a vivid recollection of the enormous amount of work which the various sub-committees had to do in the course of that inquiry. If we could have had assistance from a Bureau of Economic Research, such as is now contemplated, we could have obtained data scientifically arranged and thoroughly dissected, and would have been relieved of an enormous amount of difficult work. Later the Tariff Board inquired into the condition of the cotton industry, and made a recommendation to the Government. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1497</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>20000</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata" />
                <name role="display">Senator Elliott</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Are similar bureaux established elsewhere? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1497</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0F</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Sir GEORGE PEARCE</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Yes. The work of the Tariff Board will be materially helped by investigations that will be carried out by the proposed bureau, and the information available from time to time will enable the board to discharge its duties more efficiently. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Elliott</inline> has asked me if similar institutions have been established in other countries. In the United </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <para class="block">States of Amerca there has been in existence for many years an organization comprising 27 trained economists specially charged with the investigation of the economic effects of all proposals made for the revision of the tariff. In addition, there are three organizations dealing with similar matters - the Bureau of Foreign and Domestic Commerce, the National Research Council, and the National Industrial Conference Board. Owing to its vast population and the magnitude of its problems, the United States of America has all these organizations dealing with questions of economic research. We do not propose to carry out investigations on such an extensive scale as that. It is not necessary, and with our limited requirements, it would not be advisable to do so. The subject is also attracting much attention in the United Kingdom, where for some years the need for scientific investigation into the economic effects of public policy has been recognized. Remarkable progress has, in fact, been made in Great Britain in investigating various problems, and Australia is co-operating in that work through the Empire Marketing Board. I understand that several universities in the Mother Country now have chairs of economics. In a recent publication, entitled, <inline font-style="italic">Britain&#39;s Industrial Future,</inline> published by the Liberal party in Great Britain, there appears an interesting article dealing with this important subject. The following is an extract from it:- </para>
          <quote>
            <para>We propose, therefore, as an essential instrument of better and wiser government, the creation of what, following <inline font-weight="bold">Sir William</inline> Beveridge, we may call an Economical General Staff with duties in general terms as follows :  - </para>
            <list type="decimal-dotted">
              <item label="1.">
                <para>To engage in continuous study of current economic problems affecting national policy and the development of industry and commerce; </para>
              </item>
              <item label="2.">
                <para>To co-ordinate and, where necessary, to complete statistical and other information required by the Government and by Parliament. </para>
              </item>
              <item label="3.">
                <para>To act on its own initiative in calling the attention of the Cabinet (or the Committee of Economic Policy suggested below) to important tendencies and changes at home or abroad ; </para>
              </item>
              <item label="4.">
                <para>To suggest to the Government plans for solving fundamental economic difficulties such, for instance, as measures for stabilizing trade conditions, avoiding unemployment, and developing national resources. </para>
              </item>
            </list>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">It is suggested in another publication that action is being taken in Great Britain, apart altogether from party political organizations, to encourage similar investigations in thevarious branches of industry, and it is stated that certain industrial groups are coordinating their activities for the more efficient carrying out of economic research. Similar bodies have been established in both Canada and India. </para>
          <para>I also direct the attention of honorable senators to an inquiry made recently by the Commonwealth royal commission into the subject of child endowment and family allowances. That commission came right up against problems involved in our wages system, our standard of living, the basic wage, unemployment and a number of other subjects inseparable from industrial life in the Commonwealth. The minority report, signed by <inline font-weight="bold">Mrs. Mildred</inline> Muscio and <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. John</inline> Curtin, a member of the House of Representatives, and a member of the Labour party in that chamber, contains the following interesting statement in paragraph 119, page </para>
          <para>121:- </para>
          <para>We wish strongly to recommend that the Federal Government establish some organization for the study of social and economic conditions in Australia, so that accurate and intelligently compiled information may he obtainable by governments to guide them in introducing measures for social reform. A large quantity of interesting data in the statistician&#39;s office is not worked up, and other data could be obtained. As members of the commission, we felt strongly the lack of expert investigation into many of the questions which came up in the course of the inquiry and in the absence of such impartial expert research a good deal of the evidence tended to be mere opinion. Every social reform is an experiment, and intelligent observation should accompany all experiments. This applies not only to social reforms, but to developments of economic policy, also. The industrial and social legislation of Australia offers a rich field for research. The returns made under the Family Endowment Act of New South Wales, to take a recent and closely relevant example, must be bringing into existence a body of information making possible a survey of the problems facing families on low incomes in our community. Amongst other things, such a survey would help to throw light on the incidence of unemployment and its effects in family life. The time has arrived when a bureau of social and economic research should be set up in Australia, and we would recommend that this be done. Even one trained economist with an adequate cleri cal staff attached to the statistician&#39;s office or to the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research could render valuable service, though the establishment of an independent bureau would be better. </para>
          <para class="block">That is practically what the Government is proposing to do. </para>
          <para>Such a bureau would co-ordinate and evaluate not only information obtained through the census and other official returns, but also the data obtainable through social workers whether government officials or otherwise.. Wider economic questions, too, such as the relation of economic policy to national prosperity, to amount and distribution of income, to cost of living, to unemployment and so on, would be material for research by such a bureau. The advice of a body such as this would be invaluable in helping the Government to decide in what way to amend or enlarge any preliminary scheme of family allowances after it had been in operation some time. </para>
          <para class="block">In their final recommendation, to be found on page 125, they recommend - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>That the Federal Government establisha bureau of social and economic research either asin independent organization or attached to some existing department. </para>
          </quote>
          <para>From time to time the Government is criticized for having appointed a number of boards or commissions of inquiry to carry out certain investigations. Of course, I know that some honorable senators, in a spirit of mischief, pretend that the Ministry does this rather as a habit and because it likes to appoint boards and commissions. All I need to say in reply to any such suggestion is that no government would be so foolish as to invite criticism and attack for wasteful expenditure of public money on boards and commissions, unless it felt that it could justify the appointments. We contend that our action in this direction can be fully justified. It has been said that the proposal to create a Bureau of Economic Research, with a director at its head, is merely an attempt on the part of the Government to evade its responsibility to decide questions of policy. That, of course, is quite without foundation. No government or minister has the time, even if it or he possessed the qualifications, to conduct the inquiries which it is proposed shall be made by the trained scientists who will be appointed to the Bureau of Economic Research. I remind honorable senators also that the tendency in all commercial and industrial organizations is to refer to trained experts questions of policy for scientific examination. That is what the Government proposes to do in establishing the proposed Bureau of Economic Research. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1499</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Daly</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Is it not a fact that the Government appoints boards because every man is as lazy as he dares to be? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1499</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0F</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Sir GEORGE PEARCE</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I do not know. The honorable senator must speak for himself. Personally, I am unable to find time for relaxation, or, as the honorable senator puts it, laziness. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1499</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JRW</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">CRAWFORD, Thomas</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Crawford</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- That is why State socialism is such a failure. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <para>
            <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Sir GEORGE</inline>PEARCE That, I think, is very largely the case because the Minister controlling the department is not familiar with the conduct of the particular business enterprise in which the State may be involved, and the department itself is not fitted for the purpose. This is one of the weaknesses of State socialism. It is because they lack knowledge as to the effect of policies that governments throughout the Empire are more and more seeking the advice of economic experts. It is highly desirable that when dealing with the many problems that confront us, the Government should be able to utilize the services of trained economists who will furnish ministers with digested results of their examination of data obtained from the Statistician&#39;s branch. At present if one needs information on a subject, one applies to the Statistician&#39;s branch for it, but the duty of that office is simply to collect statistics. The office will furnish the inquirer with the statistics, but he himself has to dissect them, and discover what portion bears upon the subject with which he is concerned. This work could be done much quicker and more scientifically by the bureau. It is done to-day by the existing departmental staffs, but very frequently by rule of thumb. Not only will the bureau be of value to the Government, but it will be useful also to private members of Parliament. If the Government has found it difficult in the past to get the right sort of information, how much more difficult must it have been for private members? Speaking for my own experience, I should say that private members use the Statistician&#39;s Department more frequently than any other in the course of their work. If there were a director of economic research, private members, in seeking information could apply to him, instead of wading through vast masses of statistics, and winnowing the chaff from the wheat. The director would collect the relative facts, and present them in the form in which the member wanted. This bill is overdue ; we should have had it many years ago. </para>
          <para>It is proposed to establish a Bureau of Economic Research, consisting of a Director of Economic Research, and such officers as are necessary for the purposes of the act. The director will be appointed for a period not exceeding seven years, and will be eligible for re-appointment. He will receive salary at a rate to be fixed by the Governor-General and will be entitled to travelling expenses. He must devote the whole of his time to his duties. Officers appointed under the measure will be subject to the Public Service Act, except where professional or technical qualifications are necessary, when they may be appointed on such terms and conditions as are prescribed. The powers and functions of the bureau will be as follow :  - </para>
          <list type="loweralpha">
            <item label="(a)">
              <para>to carry out economic research in respect of - </para>
            </item>
            <item label="(i)">
              <para>Primary industries; </para>
              <list type="lowerroman">
                <item label="(ii)">
                  <para>Secondary industries; </para>
                </item>
                <item label="(iii)">
                  <para>Marketing; </para>
                </item>
                <item label="(iv)">
                  <para>Transport; </para>
                </item>
                <item label="(v)">
                  <para>Customs and Excise Tariffs; </para>
                </item>
                <item label="(">
                  <para>vi ) Bounties ; </para>
                </item>
                <item label="(vii)">
                  <para>Industrial matters; </para>
                </item>
                <item label="(viii)">
                  <para>Taxation; </para>
                </item>
                <item label="(ix)">
                  <para>Finance and Currency; and </para>
                </item>
                <item label="(x)">
                  <para>Such other matters as are prescribed. </para>
                </item>
              </list>
            </item>
            <item label="(b)">
              <para>to investigate and report to the Minister on - </para>
              <list type="lowerroman">
                <item label="(i)">
                  <para>The granting of assistance for the promotion of economic research; </para>
                </item>
                <item label="(ii)">
                  <para>Co-operation in economic research with academic and other bodies in Australia and elsewhere; and </para>
                </item>
                <item label="(iii)">
                  <para>the establishing and awarding of economic research studentships and fellowships; and </para>
                </item>
                <item label="(c)">
                  <para>to publish from time to time results of economic investigations carried out by the bureau. </para>
                </item>
              </list>
            </item>
          </list>
          <para>It will pay the Government in more prosperous times to spend money on the establishment of research scholarships. </para>
          <para class="block">The spending of a comparatively small sum of money in this direction has already given very valuable results. Some time ago Parliament voted &#163;100,000 to assist the education of young Australians in scientific research work. The. money was invested, and the revenue has been used during the last three or four years in paying for the education abroad of young Australians whose parents have not been able to do it themselves. We have experienced great difficulty in the past in getting scientific men to undertake research work into such things as plant and animal diseases. Now, as a result of spending this money the first crop of young Australian research students is coming back to Australia with the best education the world can provide in their particular lines. Earlier in the evening honorable senators were discussing the prickly pear problem. Some of these students are giving their attention to that with complete success, and quite a number of other problems are on the verge of being solved in the same way. Now, instead of having to search the world for trained men, Australia herself will be able to supply the scientists we need. Later, I hope that we shall be able to induce some of our young Australians to take up the study of the economic questions which will be the particular field of inquiry for this bureau. In this way we shall be able to solve more quickly and effectively the problems with which we are confronted than has been possible under the rule-of-thumb methods followed in the past. </para>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1500</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JTL</name.id>
              <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator DALY</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - During this time of financial stringency, it is necessary that we should consider any proposal of this kind in the light of what it will cost. Of course, if it could be guaranteed that the bureau would do all that the Leader of the Senate suggests, the necessary expenditure would bejustified even at the present time. Before committing ourselves, however, we should consider what are the ills which this bureau will seek to remedy, what remedies it is proposed to apply, whether those remedies are the most appropriate or effective possible, and what will be the cost. No one will deny that many of the matters mentioned in clause 1 1 of the bill call for urgent treatment. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para class="block">There are problems which must be solved if Australia is to take that place among the nations of the world which, I am sure, honorable senators desire her to take. Up to that point, I can agree with the Leader of the Senate, but I cannot see eye to eye with him when he says that this bill, if passed, will assist in overcoming Australia&#39;s difficulties. </para>
          <para>The bill provides for the establishment of a bureau, also for the granting of certain scholarships. So far as the scholarships are concerned, honorable senators will agree that no legislative sanction is required to do that. The bureau is to be created for the purpose, among other things, of carrying out economic research in respect of primary industry and marketing. It is admitted by the Leader of the Senate that the Development and Migration Commission has power to make investigations, and to collect data. He says, however, that while the commission can collect facts, it cannot apply to their consideration what is called the political economic mind, which is what Australia needs to-day. He admits that we have a Commonwealth Statistician&#39;s Department which collects facts, but neither can it, apparently, apply the scientific mind to Australia&#39;s problems. I remind the Leader of the Senate that there is no unanimity among political economists to-day. I have heard a political economist, who was formerly on the actuarial staff in the South Australian Public Service, and who now occupies a professorial chair in one of our universities, advocate the adoption of the malthusian theory as the only way in which Australia could solve the problems of a high standard of wages and high cost of living. Let us assume that this director has been appointed, and that he is called upon to conduct an economic investigation into an industry, or a series of industries. There are some economists who advocate that there is no hope for secondary industries in Australia while the Arbitration Court persists in prescribing what they consider to be an unreal wage; while it persists in compelling industry to provide, as they say, for children who do not, in fact, exist. These economists say that the only solution is for the Arbitration Court to fix a wage for an adult male, on the assumption that he is a married man without a  family. Then the man who has a family could be assisted to support it by the Government, which would impose taxation for the purpose. When the director is called upon to find a remedy for Australia&#39;s troubles, his recommendation will depend upon the particular school of economic thought to which he happens to belong. The Tariff Board may recommend that, in the interests of a particular industry, protection should be granted to it. The political economist, who is Pi rector of Economic Research, may believe in new protection. He may believe in the Labour party&#39;s policy of new protection, or he may even believe in the Country party&#39;s protection policy. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1501</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Can the honorable senator define the Country party&#39;s protection policy? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1501</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DALY</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I could have defined if; before it joined up with the Nationalists, but I cannot do so now. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1501</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Did the honorable senator ever know its policy? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1501</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DALY</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Yes; the party supports protection, but its members allege that they are freetraders. The nature of the report which the director would present on any given question would depend, to a large extent, on the private beliefs which he happened to hold. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>Let us deal now with what will be the most important activity of the bureau so far as the workers are concerned, namely arbitration. The director of an economic bureau would collect statistical data, draw his own conclusions, and present his report by which the Arbitration Court would virtually be bound. Under our present system of industrial arbitration, the advocate of the workers presents his case and the defence of what is known as <inline font-style="italic">non possimus</inline> rests with the employer. Prima facie, a man is entitled to receive a wage that will dove-tail in with the general scheme of wages. It is then the responsibility of the employer to set up reasons for an exception to the general rule. The employer submits his balancesheets, which are considered by the court, and if they are of sufficient importance, are taken into account. The political economists may study the balance-sheets and, in effect, say, &#34; Your business is not badly managed. I do not know anything about machinery, but your plant appears to be up to date. Your real trouble appears to be that you are paying to your workmen money to support women and children whom they are not actually supporting.&#34; He would then make a report to the Arbitration Court that the economic position of the industry was such that the basic principle upon which wages are based could be departed from. Against this report the workers&#39; advocate would protest. The judge would thereupon inform the advocate for the employees that (be court was not a legislative body. He would say that the legislature had established a Bureau of Economic Research under which the inquiry had been made. He would say that until the legislature decreed otherwisehe was virtually bound to accept the director&#39;s finding. The director of the bureau would be given the rightto expound to the court his theories on economics, which might not be those supported by a majority of the Australian people. </para>
          <para>Further, I would remind honorable senators that this measure, which I suppose will be passed, embodies an experiment and provides another instance of Parliament tinkering with symptoms. We have been informed that the bureau will not cost very much, but the salary of the director is not mentioned in the bill. As <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Duncan</inline> stated to-day, immediately we establish a bureau, the director will require a staff, and consequently its cost will immediately commence to increase. If certain work is to be taken from the Development and Migration Commission, the Department of Census and Statistics and the Tariff Board, this will eventually be one of the biggest statistical branches controlled by the Commonwealth. I presume the Government realizes that, if the work of this bureau is to be carried out effectively, it will be necessary to establish State bureaux. The problems that affect Queensland do not concern South Australia, and those of vital interest to Victoria are probably of no consequence to the people of New South Wales. The problems to be studied assume different proportions and require different treatment in the various States, and if this proposal is in the nature of an experiment, State bureaux will have to be established. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1502</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXZ</name.id>
                <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
                <party>NAT</party>
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DUNCAN, Walter</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DUNCAN</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Under such a system there would be an absence of coordination. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1502</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DALY</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Further, I cannot see how it is possible for a director who subscribes to certain political, economics to solve all the problems which under this bill he will have to handle. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
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              <talker>
                <page.no>1502</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0F</name.id>
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Sir George Pearce</name>
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              <para>- He does not have to solve the problems. He supplies the data to assist in their solution. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1502</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTL</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DALY</name>
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              <para>- If one expert is to be employed in connexion with the eradication of prickly pear, I suppose another will have to grapple with &#34; Salvation Jane.&#34; I do not think for a moment that the Minister expects to obtain the services of a person who is an expert on all the subjects mentioned in this bill. The director will require to have a complete knowledge of our protectionist policy, and its effect upon industry. He must also be capable of exhaustively examining the subject of home and overseas marketing, and of inquiring into our secondary industries, transport facilities, bounties, industrial matters, taxation and finance. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
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            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1502</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0F</name.id>
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Sir George Pearce</name>
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              <para>- A scientist inquiring into the blowfly pest which affects the wool industry, may know nothing of the wool industry. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1502</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTL</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DALY</name>
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              <para>- Possibly that is so; but if the bureau is established it will not be long before the services of a large number of scientists will be necessary. There is no need to establish a Bureau of Economic Research merely to obtain the opinions of scientists on such problems as the blowfly pest. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1502</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0F</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Sir George Pearce</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- That work is now being done through the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1502</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTL</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DALY</name>
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              <para>- What problems will the director solve in the matter of marketing ? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1502</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0F</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Sir George Pearce</name>
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              <para>- He is only to assist in the solution of such problems. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1502</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DALY</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- What data not already available can he obtain. Instead of relying upon theoretical advice we should devise some practical scheme. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para class="block">The members of the British Economic Mission did not tell us anything that we do not already know. </para>
          <para>This bureau, if established, will simply be another piece of furniture in our glorified &#34; sitting room.&#34; The financial position of Australia is such that we should not waste money upon sitting rooms. If the Government gave full effect to the request in the motion submitted by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Lynch</inline> the primary producers would receive much more benefit than they possibly could from the efforts of a Bureau of Economic Research. We do not need the services of an economist to tell us that there are thousands of acres of land awaiting cultivation, and that large areas that are at present unoccupied should be carrying sheep. We should use the money which it is proposed to expend on this useless bureau in encouraging intense cultivation and increased production. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1502</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOJ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">HAYS, Herbert</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Herbert Hays</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- We have not a profitable market for much that we are now producing. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1502</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DALY</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Can a political economist tell us how to improve our marketing system? The Government appointed <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Gepp, Mr. Gunn</inline> and others as commissioner&#39;s .to inquire into the system of marketing. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1502</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0F</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Sir George Pearce</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- If this bureau had been in existence, the work of the department with which those gentlemen are associated, would have been considerably reduced. They are not qualified to act in every capacity. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1502</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DALY</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- There is no need to duplicate the work. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1502</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0F</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Sir George Pearce</name>
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              <para>- The Developmental and Migration Commission was asked to ascertain the cost of production in the dried fruit industry; if this bureau had been in existence it would have supplied the information. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1502</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTL</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DALY</name>
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              <para>- It does not require a political economist to determine the cost of production in any industry. It seems that the Government is using a sledgehammer to kill a blowfly. <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Gunn,</inline> a member of the Developmental and Migration Commission, who inquired into the cost of producing dried fruit, could tell us the costs of production in that industry. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1503</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0F</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Sir George Pearce</name>
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              <para>-  It took <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Gunn</inline> a long  time  to ascertain the cost. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1503</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DALY</name>
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              <para>- A political economist would have to devote the same time and incur the same expense. He will have to travel throughout the Commonwealth and inquire into the conditions of growing, transport, and marketing, the difference between various arbitration awards, and generally to conduct the same investigations as were undertaken by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Gunn,</inline> For the reasons I have mentioned I move - </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <quote>
            <para>That all the words after &#34;That&#34; be left out with a view to insert in lieu thereof the following words, &#34; in view of the meagre information available as to the nature and extent of the investigations to be made and the financial obligations that would be involved, and, further, in view of the heavy and  increasing  cost of existing boards and bureaux, the bill to establish a Bureau of </para>
            <para>Economic  Research should not be proceeded with.&#34; </para>
          </quote>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1503</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
              <party />
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              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
            </talker>
            <para>.- While I realize that there is some necessity for a bureau of economic research, I am not prepared to give an unqualified &#34;yes&#34; to this measure. We are living in an age in which success to a great extent depends on following the advice of experts. If, in the management of a country, we ignore the advice of experts we depart from the tendency of the times and, indeed, from every-day practice. There is such a thing as personal economy. A wise parent will tell his offspring how to behave himself in his early years, through the period of adolescence, and until he reaches manhood. The child&#39;s tutor is his prudent parent. Then we have household economy. I venture to say that there are many books in the homes of our people which have been written by men and women who have collected and collated information as to the best means of managing a household. If personal and household economy are good things, why should we not go a step further and have national economy? If we say that in the affairs of the nation there is no need to regard economics, and deliberately turn aside the expert evidence which might be made available to us, we are inconsistent. I realize the difficulty which confronts the Government in get ting the right type of man to advise it. Yet everything will depend on the human element. It is the man behind the gun who counts. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>I agree with <inline font-weight="bold">.Senator Daly</inline> that it is difficult to get political economists to reconcile their views. Moreover, some of their matured views have been falsified by current history. I well remember, in my younger and more industrious days, reading about political economists who differed amongst themselves, comparing themselves to a number of brawling women in a market place. That great economist, Adam Smith, predicted the time when the nations of theworld, if they continued borrowing as they were then doing, would become hopelessly bankrupt. Another economist was Karl Marx, a gentleman whose political economy has been put into operation in Russia with disastrous results. He stated that under the capitalist regime the rich men grew richer and the poor poorer and less able to share the reward of their toil. Now the exact opposite is taking place in the progressive countries of the world. If we hope for the reconciliation of the views of different political economists, I am afraid that we are doomed to bitterdisappointment. If this country is to prosper, the principles that we apply to* our personal lives and to our domestic affairs must also be applied to our national life. We must do as a nation what we would do as individuals to overcome those things which handicap and beset us. </para>
          <para>
            <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Daly</inline>is a lawyer, but if he became sick in body to-morrow he would not seek advice from a member of his own profession. Instead, he would put aside his legal lore and knowledgeand seek a man skilled in treating the diseases of the body;- and, moreover, he would abide by that gentleman&#39;s advice. On the other hand, awise doctor, who found himself the victim of an unjust onslaught by a fellow citizen, who, perhaps, had stolen his goods or besmirched his character, would not go to a fellow practitioner for assistance, but to a member of the legal profession ; and so on right over the whole gamut of professional life and civil relationship. In our troubles, we go* to&#62; those who know most about them and are, therefore, the best fitted to bring us out of them. We can take the same reasoning into the field of industry. There, also, we should go for assistance to men who know most about the troubles which beset us, for they are best equipped to offer us sound advice. The same principle should be applied to our national life. Can we, as a nation, continue in the haphazard way in which we are going? The control of the  affair3  of this country is vested in the members of this Senate and of another place. 1  1  may be that in the multitude of counsellors there is safety, but no honorable senator will go as far as to say that the legislative chambers of this country are the repositories of all wisdom. We in this Parliament have been drafted from different walks of life, and few of us have made a study of political economy; much less have we the time to do it. It may be that some honorable senators have devoted some of their time to it, but they have not devoted their whole energies to it as <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Daly</inline> devoted his energies to the study of the law before he was called to the bar. Political economists year in and year out devote their energies to a study of political economy, and therefore should know something about the matter, whereas the best of us can only hope to have a smattering of knowledge concerning it. </para>
          <para>However competent the director of the bureau may be he will need to be given security, because his pronouncements will certainly impinge upon the policies of political parties. He will have to be prepared for the consequences of treading on many political corns. He can scarcely expect to be a general favorite. He should be removed from any possibility of reprisals by a political party with whose objective his advice is at variance. Perhaps it would be too much to place him in the almost impregnable position in which our judges are, but if he is to feel free to express the truth as he knows it, without incurring the risk of victimization, his position must be made secure. </para>
          <para>A political economist appointed to advise the Government would need to have regard to things as they are and things as they have been, as well as to future propects. He would have to regard Australia as a huge tract of land only partially occupied, and devote his energies to showing how, under both present and prospective positions, the greatest progress could be made, and the utmost benefit taken out of this country for all concerned. The political economy suitable to one nation might be totally unsuitable to another. For many generations the British Isles have been really the work-shop of the world, although today manufacturers there are wrestling hard to compete with nations which only recently have become competitors. A policy suitable to the Old Country many years ago would not suit it to-day. Nor can we expect that a policy which is satisfactory under present-day conditions will suffice for all time. Again, a policy suitable to the Old Country might not be applicable to Australia. For instance, political economists in Great Britain must have regard to a maintenance of food supplies for the 40,000,000 people to whom they are responsible, whereas in Australia food supplies are assured. Belgium is only a fractional part of the size of Tasmania, but it has a population of S,000,000. A system of political economy suitable to Belgium would not suit Australia. The Director of the Bureau of Economic Research in Australia would find his duties vastly different from those which he would have to undertake were he appointed to a similar position in Holland, Belgium or Great Britain. The United States of America is in the proud position of being able to decline additions to its population, and in the happy position of being able to throw down all tariff barriers and allow the countries of the world to send it all the manufactured goods they please. America knows that no protective tariff is necessary to protect the brains of its directors and workmen. As a matter of fact, Americans with their own manufactured goods can hold their own in the markets of the world, and challenge allcomers. The point I wish to make is that while a study of political economy may be beneficial to this country, I know of no other country we can adopt as a pattern. What . may be suitable to the United States of America, Canada or any European country is not applicable to Australia. </para>
          <para>The Director of Economic Research will have to address himself to his subject as if lie owned Australia. With the limitations that will be severely imposed on him he will need to study how best he can make it prosperous, develop its resources, and increase its population. The first limitation he will need to observe will be the necessity to maintain a. White Australia and keep our race pure. That limitation will be strictly imposed upon any advice he fenders. Another limitation will be the necessity to see that every citizen in this country lives under what I may term livable conditions. No one wants to see his fellow Australian living in anything but reasonable comfort, or, at any rate, according to the standard laid down by the late <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Justice</inline> Higgins. No one aiming to govern this country or seeking advice from a political economist would neglect the fundamental requirement that Australians must live under reasonable conditions. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1505</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KTR</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">MCLACHLAN, Alexander</name>
                <name role="display">Senator McLachlan</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Would it not rather be the task of the Director of Economic Research to try to help us to maintain those conditions? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1505</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
                <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
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              <para>- I realize that, but I am pointing out that these things cannot be done by the mere waving of a magic wand. I am mentioning some of the difficulties that would beset a Director of Economic Research or any person saddled with the responsibility of advising the Government on economic matters. It would not be child&#39;s play. The director would need to take into account conditions elsewhere. He would need to have his eyes and his ears open for what was happening in other parts of the world. He would need to be a man of commanding ability, who would enter upon the discharge of his duties with a clear and penetrating mind that would enable him to collect and collate information from all over the world. He would need to be thoroughly acquainted t with the conditions under which industry was carried on in different countries, how industries were related to one another, and what had proved to be of advantage in one country and a discouragement in another. It is quite within the bounds of possibility that already schemes have been hatched to undermine the wool industry of Australia by the production of fabrics that will come into competition with our pure merino wool. To counter the effect of such discoveries or other changes will be his highly important task. The man we require as Director of Economic Research must be of a type that, so to speak, does not grow on every bush. He must be securely entrenched in his position so that he will not be the victim of any party and so that he may, above all things, give independent advice. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>Conditions are constantly changing. We live in an age of change. There is nothing in a  mandane  sense so unchangeable as change. If the devices of those people who are endeavouring to produce some substitute for wool come to fruition away will go, at one stroke, the mainstay of Australia. And it is very doubtful if ever again we could revive our wool industry, which now brings to Australia some &#163;60,000,000 a year. If that happened, we should have to consider anew the purposes to which we could devote those vast areas of country that are now our mainstay and the main providers of our bread and butter. We realize that we need not have the same fear in regard to our food products because people must eat. Wool, however, is required for clothing, and fashions change. Our food products will still continue to bring us in a fair return, but, nevertheless, they are liable to be affected by something that is happening in other countries. </para>
          <para>For instance, the United States of America can hold its own in the markets of the world in this respect, and we cannot meet its competition. We want the Director of Economic Research to tell us the reason for this. Ours is a new country and we produce under conditions which are much more favorable than those of America, mainly because our land is cheap. But there are other conditions which so put us out of court that what we produce cannot be sold at a profit unless it is of superfine quality, or its output is limited. If we could, hy improved methods, place, say, apples on the London market at 8s. a case instead of the 12s. or 15s. now required to produce a profit, something would be gained and something won. If we could only command an ever-widening area of consumption by reason of the lower prices fit which we sold our produce; if we could only do in this direction what Americans have been able to do for many years past, a great advance would be made. I remember the barrels of American apples that were brought into the British Isles when I was a child and the bacon that could be sold at 3d. per lb. But that was only possible because of the wonderful improvements that had been effected in the transport of perishable produce. A brother of mine went to America 55 years ago and the first job his uncle, who lived in Michigan, gave him was to take an axe and kill so many calves. &#39; My brother wrote to his folk in Ireland describing what he had done and saying that it was the most sorry day he had ever lived that he had to kill calves, which in Ireland at that time would sell for 30s. a head. Fifteen years later he wrote recalling his earlier experience, and saying that things were vastly different - that everything in the shape of a fourfooted beast was now reared and tended with the utmost care. The reason for this was the change which had been brought about in the transport of perishable products across the Atlantic. When the adoption of freezing and chilling process permitted the export of American beef and other perishable products to the British Isles and western Europe, the pastoralists and agriculturists in those countries were almost put out of action. That is why I say that it will be necessary for the Director of Economic Research to keep his eyes steadfastly on those developments elsewhere which are likely to cause a set-back in Australia. One needs to make the people realize that things cannot be done by the mere waving of a magic wand. As a result of the competition from America the agricultural industry in the British Isles suffered such a severe depression that the clash between the landlord and tenant became intensely acute. The outlook was completely changed. The influx of American products in almost unlimited quantities so affected the price of produce that British farm labourers were obliged to emigrate and the farmers themselves had a most desperate time until conditions adjusted themselves, mainly by a reduction of rents and an improvement of processes. </para>
          <para>The Director of Economic Research will have to be the eyes and ears of the Government. He will need to view things, so to speak, from a high mountain, taking into account developments here and developments there, the relationship of one industry to another and how they interact one on the other. If, as a result of his inquiries, he found that industries in other countries, or their mode of control, either in combination or singly, had proved injurious to industries in Australia, it would be his bounden duty to recommend means for counteracting the danger. </para>
          <para>One difficulty with which he will have to contend is the divided parties in this country. I have no desire to attributeunworthy motives, but at every turn of the wheel the Labour party is seeking; to enlarge the sphere of State activities and to extend its collectivist ideas at the expense of the individualist. On theother hand, we have the Ministerial party flatly opposed- to the collectivist ideas. If ever those ideas are applied toAustralia it will, in my opinion, become a sleepy, hopeless, sluggish land. An economist with that possibility in front of him will not have too rosy a time. It  will,  therefore, be necessary to entrench him very firmly in his position, as I have said, and put it beyond the possibility of any party to influence him. </para>
          <para>On the general question I believe that the proposed experiment is well worth trying, because, as I said at the outset of my remarks, we live in an. age of experts. Take even the farm. We know that in days gone by it was the practice to give the brightest boys of the family a profession or trade, while tho least intellectual member of the  family  remained at home to carry on the farm. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1506</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JZ6</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">O&#39;HALLORAN, Michael</name>
                <name role="display">Senator O&#39;Halloran</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Was that the origin of the Country party? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1506</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>10000</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">PRESIDENT, The</name>
              <name role="display">The PRESIDENT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>-- Order! </para>
          </talk.start>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1506</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
                <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- We are discussing too lofty a subject to be brought down to the miry level of party politics. We are discussing something which has to do with the permanent welfare of the country. If the country goes down we must all go down with it, but disaster cannot overtake us if our people are profitably employed. Our common purpose should be to ensure that all sections are prosperous - that our population increase is maintained so that we may be in a position to defend this country. That, surely, is a high and worthy objective. And so the Government&#39;s proposal should be lifted above the sordid level of party politics. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>I approve of the scheme to establish a Bureau of Economic Research, but I believe it will have to be greatly extended. The scheme outlined by the Minister is somewhat meagre. It is of the highest importance that we should gather together a band of trained <inline font-style="italic">men,</inline> skilled in the science of economics, and drawn, I hope, from the best of our universities, or elsewhere if necessary, to advise the Tariff Board, and through the board, the Government concerning the economic effect of tariff charges. The conclusions of these economic experts will be available to the Government and this Parliament. Not all people return a sane verdict from the evidence placed before them. We all have met the man who returns a verdict absolutely at variance with the weight of evidence before him; but what we should aim at is to secure absolutely unimpeachable information as to how this or that industry is progressing, how the Commonwealth is developing or, if progress is stationary, for what reason. All these lessons, E imagine, will be presented to us in due course by the experts to be appointed. It does not follow that the advice will be accepted, but their conclusions will be, at least, a starting point for us. The information which they will furnish will be tested and examined just as diamonds, the most beautiful of our precious stones, are tested for lustre and value, and shine the better by comparison with the paste imitation. We shall then be in a position to say whether or not the advice should be accepted. </para>
          <para>I have no fear for the future of this young department. I believe it ought to be established if only to arm us with the most reliable information from all quarters of the globe concerning our many industrial problems. Assuredly we stand in great need of such advice. Knowledge is divided into many sections and sub-sections. Political economy is one, and not the least im portant section of the science. In fact, Professor McLeod, the father of British currency and exchange, said it was the highest science of all. It is true that differences of opinion occur among leaders of economic thought, just as there are differences of  opinoin  among lawyers, doctors, artists, architects and others, and, in fact, men in every walk of life. If, as the Leader of the Opposition has suggested, we delayed the establishment of this proposed bureau until we had unanimity among our political economists, I am afraid we should have to wait until the crack of doom. It is of the first importance that we should have made available to us the services of these scientific gentlemen, even if they differ in their conclusions. Because members of the legal fraternity differ very widely sometimes in their reading of the law, we do not, for that reason, decline to avail ourselves of their services whenever the need arises. Doctors also differ; but that does not prevent us from consulting them. We appeal to lawyers in times of difficulty over legal issues, because we consider that they are the only persons in the community in a position to tender advice of any value. For the same reason we consult members of the other professions as to what line of action should be taken in a given set of circumstances. Hitherto, there has been a vast amount of blind stabbing in the running of this country. I believe I am uttering a truism when I say that in this department of statecraft, we have been progressing more or less blindfolded, especially as regards the effect of tariff duties on industry, and the spending of public money without proper warrant. I imagine that honorable senators will say that they have heard this before. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1507</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K3X</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">CARROLL, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Carroll</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- It is worth repeating. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1507</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
                <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- It is. Figures relating to the effect of tariff duties show clearly that we have not maintained the balance evenly between our primary and secondary industries. The time has come to supply the remedy. There is no intention, so far as I am aware of doing harm to our secondary industries by the appointment of these economic experts. The one thing that is clear is that in  the past our legislative proposals have been lacking in balance, with the result that to-day one section of our people - our primary producers - has to work inordinately long hours for a meagre return, while another section living in our larger centres of population is in the enjoyment of short hours of labour, more leisure, and a better return. There is no spirit of comradeship in this state of affairs, and surely no harm can come from any action to supply a remedy. It is high time that these truths were told and repeated. A great deal of harm may result from the neglect to voice them. I support the bill, because I believe it is a commendable attempt to improve the lot of our Commonwealth, and I feel sure that if the Government can secure the services of the right men, the conclusions which they will reach will be very valuable, not only to the Government, but also to the community generally </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1508</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K2L</name.id>
              <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator REID</name>
            </talker>
            <para>.- It is desirable that the proposed bureau should be established as soon as possible to assist us in solving problems, which on our present information, appear to be insoluble. The bill is an experiment, but it is well worthy of support. The proposed bureau will inquire into the many problems connected with our primary and secondary industries, markets, transport, customs and excise tariff; taxation, finance, industrial legislation, and other subjects. Unhappily Australia is suffering from a depression that is comparable only to the 1893 crisis, but the cause is not the same. For some years, the Arbitration Court has been fixing the wages and hours of labour in industry, which, naturally, affect the cost of production, and owing to various causes, the outlook to-day is far from reassuring. No one desires to interfere with the present standard of wages in Australia, but the people of this country are demanding a better relationship between employer and employee, and they will welcome the appointment of an independent economic tribunal to examine the effects of public policy. It is as well to reiterate that the standard of living is determined not so much by the amount of wages paid, as by the purchasing power of wages. The decline in the purchasing power of money has been so marked in recent years, that real wages are but slightly above actual wages paid, 40 or 50 years ago, and the lot of the average working man is not much better than it was many years ago. Certainly the workers to-day are not contented and there is not the same spirit of comradeship abroad. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>I am surprised that <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Daly</inline> should have submitted his amendment. Evidently he views the Government&#39;s proposal with suspicion, because his amendment is similar to that which was moved in another place. I hope I am not misjudging the honorable gentleman, but it seems to me that he is opposing the bill because he is afraid that, if a Bureau of Economic Research is established, the conclusions which will be drawn by trained economic students from the data available may not be favorable to Labour&#39;s policy. The director will be faced with a most difficult task. It will be his duty to ascertain the economic effect of Arbitration Court awards and other phases of Government policy on the industrial life of the Commonwealth. </para>
          <para class="italic">
            <inline font-style="italic">Sitting suspended from 6.15 p.m. to 8 p.m.</inline>
          </para>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1508</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
                <name role="display">Senator REID</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- In the statement which <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Daly</inline> made about wages, he showed what I might describe as the cloven hoof, so far as his views on this matter are concerned. He had a great deal to say about what views a political economist might hold on the subject of wages, but there is nothing in this bill, about a political economist, who is a man concerned with theories and abstract studies. The work to be done by the Director of Economic Research needs a practical economist, one who understands the industrial and commercial life of Australia. He will have to deal, not with theories, but with the actual facts of life. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Daly</inline> said that the Director of Economic Research might recommend a reduction of wages to men without family responsibilities. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1508</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Daly</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  I did not say that. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1508</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
                <name role="display">Senator REID</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Well, the honorable senator certainly inferred it. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1508</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Daly</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  That is what the senator himself would like to see done. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1509</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
                <name role="display">Senator REID</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Australia will have to face this question of a proper basic wage. At present a wage is fixed on the basis of providing a proper standard of living for a nian with a wife and three children. The problem must be considered without sentiment or prejudice. Nobody wishes to see the standard of comfort lowered, but, as I said before, that standard ia not fixed by the amount of wages paid, hut by what those wages will purchase. W e now are in a vicious circle in which a rise in wages is followed inevitably by an increase in the cost of living, and we are no further forward than we were years ago. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1509</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Daly</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- That is not our fault. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1509</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
                <name role="display">Senator REID</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I am not blaming any one. I am considering the matter as a citizen of Australia, one who has spent Iris life in the study of social questions, in which I am as interested now as ever I was. While we have an Arbitration Court fixing wages and hours, we are creating false conditions, and we must consider whither we are going. All our work in fixing wages and hours, and raising the standard of comfort helps only those who happen to be in employment. What I want to know is, what is going to become of the thousands of unemployed in Australia to-day? In spite of the Arbitration Court and the Tariff Board, there is more unemployment in Australia now than there lias ever been before. Honorable senators opposite are inclined to look at these matters from their own peculiar class point of view. We  must  look at them from a national point of view, and consider whether the country can carry on as it is doing; whether, in fact the present standard of comfort can be maintained. It certainly cannot be maintained if the number of unemployed remains as great as now.  Thousands  of men with families are out of work to-day, they are getting into debt, and their standard of living will be reduced for, perhaps, years to come. The Director of Economic Research will have to consider whether Australia can keep on paying the present rate of wages, and compete in the markets of the world. Another aspect of the same problem is seasonal employment, which is an evil affecting a large section of workers engaged in the pastoral and sugar industries. The present cost of producing a pound of wool is approximately ls. Practically all the authorities who have gone into the matter fix the cost of production at between lOd. and ls. a pound. On a good station, well watered, and easy of access, the cost will be something less than ls. Production costs are made up of the cost of running the station, wages paid, cartage, taxation, and insurance. If it takes ls. to produce a pound of wool, it is evident that the pastoral industry is rapidly approaching the point when it will hardly pay to produce wool at all. Pastoralists have to face very serious risks, and we know that in Queensland some of them have experienced a drought lasting over four years. They will be crippled for a long time paying back interest on their overdrafts. There is a profit of only about 10 per cent, on the production of wool, and that is not large enough in view of the risks which have to be borne. Yet the shearers receive &#163;2 5s. a 100, and they do not earn it. High wages paid to the shearers affect the price of clothes, and in that way, the cost of living. We are told that shearers&#39; wages are so high because theirs is a seasonal employment, and they do nothing else. If they followed other occupations after the shearing season was finished, it would not be necessary to pay them &#163;2 5s. a 100 for five months of the year so that they may loaf in the towns for the remaining months. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>In the same way, the wages fixed for seasonal workers in the sugar industry are very high, taking into consideration the nature of the work, which requires no very high mental qualifications. What should be considered in fixing wages is the service which the worker renders to the community, whether it be in the pastoral industry, the sugar industry, or any other. The high wages now paid in seasonal industries are a serious tax on the community. Years ago the workers in those industries did not cease work altogether at the end of the season. In the back country then, the men used to shear during the season, and go fencing, dam sinking, scrub cutting or gold fossicking afterwards. They never thought of working for only a few months, and loafing for the rest of the year. They belonged to the bush, and lived in and by the bush. The economist whom Ave appoint to this bureau must consider the question of seasonal employment. He must consider the wages paid in the light of the service rendered to the community. The workers in the industries I have mentioned do not receive the present high wages because they earn them, but because of the seasonal nature of their occupation. </para>
          <para>Nobody wishes to interfere with the present basic wage, but we must consider whether it is possible to keep it at its present level. The country produces only a certain amount of wealth, and if one section of the community is paid more than it earns, the money must be taken from somebody else. These things are all tied up with the present unemployment situation. Despite the legislation passed by this Parliament during recent years with the object of improving the conditions of not only the workers, but other sections of the community, there are, unfortunately, thousands of unemployed in Australia to-day. Although I am a protectionist I believe certain customs duties have had a detrimental effect upon some of our primary industries, causing an increase in the cost of primary production. A full inquiry should be made into the efficiency of some industries in order to ascertain to what extent they are bolstered up by our present protective system. As the community provides the support afforded under a protective policy, it should be informed of the benefits it receives under such a system. Reliable information on such subjects could be obtained by a Bureau of Economic Research, which would be of great value not only to the Parliament when considering proposed legislation, but also to the people. A thorough investigation should be made into the efficiency of certain industries, and the service they are rendering to the community, as under tariffs and other imposts the consumers who have to foot the bill are usually forgotten. </para>
          <para>The recent dispute in the coalmining industry has directed public attention to the wages paid and the cost of production in that industry. In conversation with some of those closely connected with the coal business I have been informed that in some instances coal which can be produced at the pit mouth at from 4s. 6d. to 7s. 6d. a ton, is sold in </para>
          <para class="block">Sydney at from 27s. to37s. a ton. It would be interesting to know how the difference is accounted for. A regular supply of coal is vital to the continuance of many industries, and a thorough investigation might show that the cost of production is such that either the wages paid are not unreasonable, or that the profits made are excessive. The subject of piece-work is also of great importance to Australian industry, and an effort should be made to ascertain how far the application of that system could be extended. It is at present adopted in many industries to the advantage of both the employer and employee; the workmen are afforded full protection under Arbitration Court awards. Some years ago, strong objection was taken to the system because it was adopted by unscrupulous employers in an endeavour to crush the workers ; but as it has now been placed on a proper basis, its application to other industries might he considered. Other industries also depend upon a continuous supply of timber, but there seems to be difficulty in accurately determining the wages which should be paid to the timber-getter, the return which should be received by the saw-miller, and the prices paid by the builder or contractor. Thorough inquiry into this industry would perhaps clear the atmosphere and result in operations being carried on uninterruptedly. We have now reached a point where the representatives of certain industries approach the Arbitration Court, which, after considering all the information at its disposal - and it may sometimes be inadequate - reduces wages. If the court were in a position to study the claims made from every angle and also utilize the information supplied by a Bureau of Economic Research, the awards would be such that we should possibly have peace in industry, which is so essential to the progress and prosperity of the Commonwealth. While we continue to work on an insecure foundation, we must not be surprised if there is industrial unrest. I support the bill because I believe that the Bureau of Economic Research to be established will be able to supply information which will assist Parliament and bodies established under its authority to work more effectively in the interests of the Australian people. </para>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1511</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K09</name.id>
              <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">PAYNE, Herbert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator PAYNE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. ~ I fully anticipated that this measure would have received the whole-hearted support of honorable senators in opposition, because only the other day they denounced the Government for what they termed its ineffective control of national affairs. An honorable senator opposite said that although the Government had been in power for six years, it had not done anything to help Australia out of its present difficulties. This measure has been introduced by the Government after very careful consideration, and any one studying its provisions, disinterestedly and dispassionately, must admit that it is an honest attempt to get. at the root cause of most of our troubles. Notwithstanding the desire of the Government in that respect, the  Deputy  Leader of the Opposition <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Daly)</inline> is opposing the measure. I ask honorable senators opposite if they will not reconsider the decision which they have apparently reached. We have a comparatively small population and are now confronted with financial and industrial difficulties. We have had periods of prosperity, but as the tide has now turned it is the duty of the Government to do its best to ascertain the cause. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1511</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Daly</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  It is useless tinkering with symptoms. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1511</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K09</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">PAYNE, Herbert</name>
                <name role="display">Senator PAYNE</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- We are not doing that. For the last six years we have been carrying out a policy which the majority of the people believe to be in the best interests of Australia, but we now realize that our financial and industrial position should be better than it is. The bill provides for the establishment of a Bureau of Economic .Research, the powers and functions of which are clearly defined. The bureau will be empowered to carry out economic research with respect to primary and secondary industries, marketing, transport, customs and excise tariffs, bounties, industrial matters, taxation, finance, and currency. The legislation we have passed affects all these subjects and must have had an important bearing on our present position. It behoves us to employ the best agents procurable to assist us as legislators in repairing the damage that has been done. It may mean that a complete investigation will result in a revision of our tariff, or in the partial revision of our industrial legislation. It may even mean, as one honorable senator has suggested, a reduction in wages. But what will it matter if, after a full inquiry, these things are found desirable so long as we ensure the prosperity of the Commonwealth and its people? The wages a man receives are not necessarily an indication of the standard of comfort he may enjoy. We have to consider, not only the wages a man receives, but also their purchasing power. If a man receiving &#163;6 a week cannot live in that degree of comfort that we all desire him to enjoy, but under altered conditions could have more comfort on a salary of &#163;4 a week, he would be better off at the lower salary under the altered conditions- </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1511</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Daly</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  There is no power in this bill to fix prices. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1511</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K09</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">PAYNE, Herbert</name>
                <name role="display">Senator PAYNE</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- There is power in it to institute an investigation into the subjects set out in clause  11.  The fullest investigation should be made in order that we may be able to repair the damage already done. It is deplorable that in a country with such wonderful possibilities of development we cannot do better than we are doing. Australia has suffered a reverse which ought not to have occurred. Possibly if our legislation were based on sound principles it could have been avoided. In dealing with a matter of this kind it would be most injudicious to legislate in the interests of any one section of the community. We ought to know that if one section is injured all other sections suffer. The efforts of the director of the bureau should not be directed towards finding a panacea for the ills affecting only one section of the community, for by healing them  Ave  might bring disaster to other sections, so that our last state would be worse than the first. Advice, to be worth following, must benefit the whole community. One of the main reasons why Australia is not so prosperous to-day as in years that have passed is that far too great a proportion of the population is found in the cities. We have paid too much attention to building up small secondary industries, and have neglected the primary industries upon which we ought more to rely. I believe that the Government has been actuated by the best of motives in introducing this measure. I support it as a step towards the removal of our difficulties by conducting scientific investigations into their root causes. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1512</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JXZ</name.id>
              <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">DUNCAN, Walter</name>
              <name role="display">Senator DUNCAN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - I feel sure that the motives actuating the Government in introducing this measure are entirely praiseworthy and spring from a growing recognition of the fact that knowledge must be made the hand-maiden of industry, if, in the race for survival of the fittest, our industries are to succeed. The Government appears to have realized that the problems confronting Australia are entirely different from those which any other country has to face. In dealing with some matters we are able to look to older countries for guidance, but in other respects our conditions are so entirely different, that we must find out for ourselves the proper course to follow. Australia&#39;s fauna, flora, and natural conditions generally are different from those of other countries. Some of the newer countries of the world have problems similar to ours, but they, like us, have not yet devoted their energies to finding a solution of them. In some respects South Africa, the Argentine Republic, and other countries are similar to Australia; nevertheless each has problems which it must settle for itself. Investigations must be made on the spot if we are to overcome the difficulties that beset us. Originally Australia was almost entirely free from pests. In that respect this country was, perhaps, the cleanest in the world. But people came here from other countries, and knowing nothing of natural conditions in Australia, they brought with them some old-world associations. And so Australia to-day has foxes, rabbits, starlings, sparrows, and other pests. Had an inquiry been conducted by competent persons as to the possible effects of liberating those birds and animals in Australia, it is possible that their entry would have been prohibited, and this country saved hundreds of millions of pounds. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>The Government has deemed it wise to establish a Bureau of Economic Research in the belief that it will be in the best interests of the country. I remind the Senate that this is not the first attempt of its kind in Australia, for some of the States already have in existence organizations which are carrying out similar work to that to which the staff of the bureau will devote their attention. For instance, the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research is doing work which is closely allied with that which will be undertaken by the Bureau of Economic Research. Attached to the University of Adelaide is the Waite Agricultural Research Institute, under the directorship of <inline font-weight="bold">Dr. A.</inline> E. V. Richardson. I doubt whether better work could be done by the new bureau proposed in this bill than is being carried out by the Waite Institute. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1512</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0F</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Sir George Pearce</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  There will be no duplication. The Bureau of Economic Research will mot cover the same ground as that covered by the Waite Institute. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1512</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXZ</name.id>
                <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
                <party>NAT</party>
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DUNCAN, Walter</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DUNCAN</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- It is good to have that assurance from the Minister. The last journal of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research contains an article by Professor Goddard, of the University of Queensland, relating to &#34; bunchy top &#34; in bananas. The subjects dealt with by these State authorities impinge directly on some of the functions this bureau will be authorized to perforin. For instance, it will carry out economic research in respect of primary industries. In both the instances I have mentioned State bodies are engaged in carrying out economic research in respect of primary industries. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1512</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0F</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Sir George Pearce</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  Not on the side that would be touched by the Director of Economic Research. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1512</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXZ</name.id>
                <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
                <party>NAT</party>
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DUNCAN, Walter</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DUNCAN</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- It is difficult to differentiate between the economic side of an industry and the other side which is being handled by these gentlemen in the States. The science of economics treats of the laws that regulate the production and distribution of wealth and the relations of capital and labour. It will be difficult for this bureau to limit its functions to one side whilst bodies already in existence in the State take cognizance of the other side. But there is no reason why there should not be a conference between the Director of Economic Research, and the bodies already in existence, so that a line of demarcation may he  laid down. The two bodies, Commonwealth and State, may thus be able to help each other without any duplication of work. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1513</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0F</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Sir George Pearce</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Before this bill was drafted the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research was consulted on that point, and it agreed that there was a field that neither it nor any State authority touched. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1513</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXZ</name.id>
                <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
                <party>NAT</party>
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DUNCAN, Walter</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DUNCAN</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I can easily see that there is a field not touched by the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research or any State authority, and that so long as there is a proper understanding between the various bodies the Bureau of Economic Research may be able to do good work in its own field. Indeed, when one looks at the bill and sees what its powers and functions will be, one realizes that it will have an enormous task to perform, one that in the opinion of some honorable senators, and in my opinion will be found to be too great for it. The bureau will be authorized to carry out economic research in respect of &#34; primary industries, secondary industries, marketing, transport, customs and excise tariff, bounties, industrial matters, taxation, finance and currency and such other matters as are prescribed.&#34; </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>In regard to secondary industries, marketing, taxation, finance and currency there is already a more or less effective inquiry going on continuously in this country either through organizations created for the purpose, or through public departments, Commonwealth and State. For instance, secondary industries come directly within the purview of the Tariff Board. The marketing problem is of such great importance to the Commonwealth that a Minister for Markets has been given a place in the Commonwealth Cabinet. The Bureau of Economic Research might be able to carry out certain investigations in regard to marketing in Australia that do not come directly within the authority of that Minister, but in regard to the establishment and maintenance of markets abroad, which is the sole responsibility of the Commonwealth, the bureau would find itself enormously hampered in making its investigations, because of the necessity for having to accept second-hand the information it must get before it could arrive at any conclusion. It would be in exactly the same position as the Minister for Markets and Transport, who receives reports from his officers in the various countries in which we may desire to establish markets for the sale of our products, and acts upon them. A Director of Economic Research would be entirely dependent on the reports of officers appointed by him to investigate matters overseas. When we come to consider the very wide chasm between marketing and taxation, and between taxation and finance and currency, we must realise the big task a Director of Economic Research would have. Surely in this country we are not prepared to admit that our knowledge of taxation is limited. Many people feel that already we know too much about it, and that the time has come when we ought to inform ourselves as to how we can get rid of some of it rather than consider how we can impose more taxation. A Director of Economic Research would not be likely to have the knowledge of finance and currency that is possessed by bankers and other men in our community who are dealing with those matters daily. He would be dependent for his information from an economic standpoint on those financial experts whose profession it is to handle finance and currency. Many of the functions which the Bureau of Economic Research would perform are already receiving close and effective attention by existing organizations. In other words, this bill superimposes on existing organizations a new authority that will cost a great deal of money. Besides secondary industries, such subjects as the customs and excise tariff and bounties fall within the ambit of the Tariff Board, and that body has considered them from an economic standpoint. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1513</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K3X</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">CARROLL, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Carroll</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- But in a piecemeal fashion only. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1513</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXZ</name.id>
                <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
                <party>NAT</party>
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DUNCAN, Walter</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DUNCAN</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- That may be so, but sitting as it does day after day, week after week, month after month, and year after year, it must gain a comprehensive knowledge of the economics of industry in Australia, a greater knowledge of them than could be gained by any other body of individuals in Australia, certainly greater than we could expect a Director of Economic Research or his  officers to obtain. The Tariff Board has special facilities for acquiring knowledge. It hears evidence on oath, and when it makes a report, it knows that it has learned everything that is possible to be learned about the subject. It would be impossible for a Director of Economic Research to fully inform his mind on such subjects as secondary industries, customs and excise tariffs and bounties, without making investigations similar to those which are made by the Tariff Board. This bureau, therefore, will be superimposed on the energies and functions of the Tariff Board. Of course, I understand that it will cover a wider field than is touched by the Tariff Board. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1514</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K2L</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  The Director of Economic Research would point out the economic effect of the tariff on the community. All that the Tariff Board does is to ascertain whether or not an industry needs protection. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1514</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXZ</name.id>
                <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
                <party>NAT</party>
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DUNCAN, Walter</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DUNCAN</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Parliament has instructed the Tariff Board to consider the economic effect of the tariff. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1514</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K3X</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">CARROLL, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Carroll</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  But the Tariff Board has not started that investigation yet. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1514</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JXZ</name.id>
                <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
                <party>NAT</party>
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DUNCAN, Walter</name>
                <name role="display">Senator DUNCAN</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- The probability is that it will undertake the investigation. At any rate, it must do so at some time if it is to carry out its functions in a proper way. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>Generally speaking, this bill superimposes on existing authorities a new authority that will cost a great deal of money. I cannot see how it can carry on without the employment of a big staff if its work is to be done properly. No single set of officers can be expected to devote their energies to a survey of the whole field covered by the bill. It will certainly be most valuable to this country to have the fullest knowledge on the subjects which are to be investigated, but it will mean the employment of a great many officers who must be highly paid. I doubt whether, in the present state of the country&#39;s development, our finances will stand the expenditure that will be involved; but it will depend on the administration. The present Government would keep a check on the director, but with the powers given under this bill, I can picture what might happen with a change in Government. Other Governments could make the pace a &#34; welter.&#34; I know what has happened in Queensland where there is a government which is not too careful about its appointments or their cost to the State. With a hill like this, God help the Commonwealth if we have a Government like that in office. I felt it to be my duty to point to the possibility of the Commonwealth being involved in heavy financial obligations. However, this must be the responsibility of the Government, and I am prepared to trust it. I shall vote for the second reading of the bill. </para>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1514</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K3X</name.id>
              <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">CARROLL, William</name>
              <name role="display">Senator CARROLL</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. -  I congratulate the Government upon having introduced the bill. The establishment of a Bureau of Economic Research should make it possible to consider public policy and developmental schemes in an orderly manner. Hitherto, we have been entirely in the dark. One of the first duties of the bureau, if it is to carry out its investigations in the order set out in the bill, will be to make economic research in respect of our primary industries. This investigation, I assume, will include the effect of tariff duties. While on this matter, and speaking as a member of my party, I should like it to be clear that we have never claimed to be freetraders. We have, however, contended that the primary industries have never had a fair deal from the Governments of Australia; or at all events that they have not received as much consideration as has been shown to our secondary industries. If the bureau functions as we all hope it will, it should be in a position to furnish us with information so complete in every respect that every section of the community will know where it stands. If its investigation into the position of the primary industries discloses that our producers have been receiving fair treatment, we shall be quite satisfied, but I shall be very much surprised if the bureau reaches that eonelusion. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Duncan</inline> suggested that it would duplicate a certain amount of work that is being done by existing institutions. Time alone will prove whether the honorable senator&#39;s predictions are correct. The Tariff Board was appointed to consider applications for tariff protection or some other form of assistance, and also to hear objections from those who were opposed to the applications. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>The <inline font-weight="bold">PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon.</inline><inline font-weight="bold">Sir</inline> John  Newlands). - The honorable senator must not enter upon a general tariff debate in the discussion on this bill. </para>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1515</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K3X</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">CARROLL, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator CARROLL</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I have no desire to do that, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. President.</inline> I merely wish to point out that it will be the duty of the bureau to examine the economic effects of customs and excise duties, and that this investigation will not duplicate the work of the Tariff Board. Up to now, the board has not had the information which we hope the bureau will place before that body to assist it in framing its recommendations. This is one reason why I intend to support the bill through all its stages. If it functions as we expect it will, the bureau should be of great value to the members of the Tariff Board. Whether it will fulfil the highest expectations of its sponsors, it is impossible to say at this stage; but the Government at least deserves credit for having submitted this measure. I do not doubt that a certain amount of expense will be involved; but it should be money well spent, and it is conceivable that its work may result in considerable economies. I have in mind at the moment the huge expenditures on land settlement schemes undertaken without adequate inquiry by the various States, and I know that the capital cost will have to to be written down by several millions - by as much as &#163;8,000,000 according to one estimate. If the Development and Migration Commission had been in existence before those schemes were launched, it probably would have disapproved of some, and an expenditure of several millions of pounds would have been saved. Though the bureau may involve a certain amount of expenditure, I have no doubt about the wisdom of the Government&#39;s proposal. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
        </speech>
        <division>
          <division.header>
            <time.stamp />
            <para>Question - That the words proposed to be left out be left out (Senator Daly&#39;s amendment) - put. The committee divided.</para>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>5</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>17</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
            </noes>
          </division.data>
          <para>Majority . . . . 12 </para>
          <para class="block">
            <graphic href="120332192903204_29_0_3_P.jpg" />
          </para>
          <para>AYES</para>
          <para class="block">
            <graphic href="120332192903204_29_0_1_A.jpg" />
          </para>
          <para>NOES</para>
          <para class="block">
            <graphic href="120332192903204_29_0_2_N.jpg" />
          </para>
          <division.result>
            <para class="block">Question so resolved in the negative. </para>
          </division.result>
          <para class="block">Amendment negatived. </para>
          <para class="block">Original question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
          <para class="block">Bill read a second time. </para>
          <para class="italic">
            <inline font-style="italic">In committee :</inline>
          </para>
          <para>Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to. </para>
        </division>
      </subdebate.1>
      <para>Clause 5 (Appointment of Director). </para>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>1515</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
            <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
            <party />
            <role />
            <in.gov>0</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
            <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
          </talker>
          <para>. -  It is provided in this clause that the appointment shall be for  a  term of not more than seven years. As I indicated in my second-reading speech, I think that we ought to make the position of this functionary as secure as we can by act of Parliament. It is already a. recognized maxim of British law that judges should be made so secure in their positions that they can be removed only by a joint resolution of both Houses of Parliament. That is so that they may be placed beyond the range of party fire, so that no party spleen or feeling may affect them in their judgments. This is one of the most important appointments the Government can make, since the director must be the grand adviser to Australia on many serious public issues. </para>
        </talk.start>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1515</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K8P</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">THOMPSON, William</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Thompson</name>
            </talker>
            <para>-  He will only give advice on economic matters, and his advice might be quite wrong. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1515</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- It might, perhaps, be wrong, but it might also cut across the political prejudices of the party in power, and in that way arouse its wrath. Just as we take care to place our judges in such a position that they may give fair and impartial judgments, so we must place this director beyond the range of party and political gun-fire. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1516</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JLM</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">ABBOTT, Percy</name>
              <name role="display">Senator P P Abbott</name>
            </talker>
            <para>-  Would the honorable senator have him appointed for life? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1516</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I do not know that I should not. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1516</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JLM</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">ABBOTT, Percy</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Abbott</name>
            </talker>
            <para>-  We do not appoint the members of the Tariff Board for life. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1516</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The members of the Tariff Board are small fish compared to what this man will be. I suggest that we should assure him a term of appointment of not less than seven years instead of &#34; not more &#34; than seven years, as the clause provides. In that way we might attract to the position a person of worth. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>1516</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>JRW</name.id>
            <electorate />
            <party />
            <role />
            <in.gov>0</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">CRAWFORD, Thomas</name>
            <name role="display">Senator CRAWFORD</name>
          </talker>
          <para>-  Suppose an unsuitable man should be appointed? </para>
        </talk.start>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1516</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Means are provided in the bill by which he may be removed. The first consideration, however, should be to obtain a suitable man, and to that end we should make the terms of appointment as attractive as is in the power of Parliament. We know that there is a growing feeling at the present time that the parliamentary term  of three years is too short for the good of the country, and that it ought to be extended. For the same reason,  Ave  should not make the term of appointment of this director too short. The Government, no doubt, will say that he may be re-appointed at the expiration of his term ; but I should like that to be provided for in the bill. His position should be made so impregnable that he could discharge his duties  without  the haunting fear of treading on the corns of any political party, no matter  how  powerful it might be. It is well known that, when  an  officer  Avas  sought to control the Commonwealth Bank, we had to trample in the dust all our preconceived notions about the Civil Service and its regulations before we could get a suitable man. The Labour Government  which Avas  then in  power  had to go out and bargain in the open market for the man it  av  anted, and the bargain struck  Avas  in his favour. If  Ave  are to obtain a good man for this post,  Ave  must make the initial conditions of employment as attractive as possible. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>1516</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>K0F</name.id>
            <electorate>Western Australia1</electorate>
            <party>NAT</party>
            <role>Vice-President of the Executive Council</role>
            <in.gov>1</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
            <name role="display">Senator Sir GEORGE PEARCE</name>
          </talker>
          <para>&#91;9.22&#93;.- The Government has given a great deal of con sideration to this clause, and to the term of appointment,  whether it  should be fixed at more or less than seven years. It must be remembered that the number of persons capable of filling this position is not very great ; but, from inquiries we have made, we do not think there will be any great difficulty in procuring the services of a suitable man if the term is fixed at not more than seven years. We have already tried this form of engagement with considerable success. I may mention the Development and Migration Commission, for which  the  longest period of appointment is seven years, and whose chief executive officer is <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Gepp,</inline> the  chairman, who.  in the opinion of the Government, is a very valuable man. The members of the Federal Capital Commission are appointed for a term of years. On the Tariff Board, the longest term of appointment is three years. On the Public Service Commission the longest term is five years, and the shortest three years. The Commonwealth Railways Commissioner is appointed for five years. When <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Bell&#39;s</inline> term expired he  Avas  reappointed, and by a different government from  that  which  had  first appointed him. The Government feels that it is better to fix a term during which the person apj&#62;ointed as director can be tried out, and, if he is found to be a valuable officer, there is  power  to re-appoint him. It is wiser, I think, to keep to the shorter term. I ask <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Lynch,</inline> therefore, to allow the clause to stand as it is. </para>
        </talk.start>
        <para>Clause agreed to. </para>
        <para>Clause 6 agreed to. </para>
        <para>Clause 7 (Suspension of Director). </para>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>1516</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
            <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
            <party />
            <role />
            <in.gov>0</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
            <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
          </talker>
          <para>. -  This clause provides that the Minister may, at any time, suspend the director for the reasons set out. It is quite right that the Minister should have that  power,  but, if it is subsequently found that the suspension is faulty or unjust, the only remedy the officer will have is to adopt the long and circuitous expedient of invoking the aid of both Houses of Parliament before he can be restored to his position. I suggest that, after the word &#34;behaviour,&#34; the following  words  should be inserted: - </para>
        </talk.start>
        <quote>
          <para>But such suspension can only take effect and be confirmed with the approval of both Houses of Parliament. </para>
        </quote>
        <para>My purpose is to make the position of director as secure as the Government can make it. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1517</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KTR</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MCLACHLAN, Alexander</name>
              <name role="display">Senator McLachlan</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Is not that really the effect of sub-clause 2? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1517</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I agree that subclause 2 affords some relief; but my amendment would place on Parliament the onus of taking action before the suspension became permanently operative. The suspension could be effected only if Parliament approved of it. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1517</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K2L</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">REID, Matthew</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Reid</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- What would the director be doing between the date of his suspension and the meeting of Parliament? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1517</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- He would be out of his position. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1517</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JLM</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">ABBOTT, Percy</name>
              <name role="display">Senator P P Abbott</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- If the Minister thinks that a director is incompetent he should have power to dismiss him. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1517</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- That is so; but the object of my proposed amendment is to make the Minister consider carefully before he takes the serious step of suspending this officer. This can be achieved by ensuring that Parliament must review the Minister&#39;s decision at once. Certainly, provision is already made for Parliament to review the Minister&#39;s decision; but it only becomes operative after a roundabout procedure, whereas Parliament ment should step in immediately the suspension takes place, and clear his character or confirm his suspension. The  Deputy  Loader of the Opposition <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Daly)</inline> referred to placing the onus of proof upon the accuser. The onus of proof should be thrown on the accuser, which in this case will be the Minister responsible for his suspension. If the director is suspended lie will, so to speak, be swinging in midair until Parliament assumes responsibility. The onus of proof of guilt should rest upon Parliament, which should immediately discharge its duty in that respect. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1517</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JLM</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">ABBOTT, Percy</name>
              <name role="display">Senator P P Abbott</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- If Parliament does not act the Governor-General may. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1517</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JTL</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">DALY, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Daly</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Parliament must act before the Governor-General. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1517</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- If <inline font-weight="bold">Senator P.</inline> P. Abbott will study the wording of subclauses 2 and 3 he will see that it might be two or three months before the direc-  tor could obtain a verdict. I want to provide that Parliament shall act promptly. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1517</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K09</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">PAYNE, Herbert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Payne</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Does the honorable senator suggest that there should be no suspension unless Parliament is sitting? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1517</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- That need not necessarily follow. Immediately suspension occurs Parliament should act, instead of following the tortuous process provided in the clause. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1517</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K8P</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">THOMPSON, William</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Thompson</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The easier we make the suspension of a professor of economics the better; he is an unknown quantity. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1517</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- If that is the intention we shall never obtain the services of a suitable man. If it is the desire of the committee to make the suspension easy, it is unnecessary to seek a good man. The committee should recognize that the duties of this official will bring him into close contact with both political parties. He will have to report upon the condition of different - industries, their relation to each other and to all Australian industries. That being the case, the director should have some fixity of tenure, otherwise we shall not be able to obtain the services of the type of man we desire. I ask the committee to stand up to its duty, because if the director is suspended Parliament will be invoked, and it is better to invoke Parliament at once than in the manner provided in the clause. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>1517</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>K0F</name.id>
            <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
            <party>NAT</party>
            <role>Vice-President of the Executive Council</role>
            <in.gov>1</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
            <name role="display">Senator Sir GEORGE PEARCE</name>
          </talker>
          <para>&#91;9.34&#93;. - The suspension of an officer as provided in this clause would be a serious act on the part of the Minister, and the power would be exercised only in the most extreme cases. A Minister would be loth to suspend an officer knowing that Parliament would have the power to review such suspension. In the first place, the Minister would not act unless he had the full approval of the Government. I could not imagine a Minister suspending a prominent official until the matter had been fully discussed by Cabinet. A Minister would not suspend an officer without good reason. He would not act unless there was every justification; but if the suggested amendment were made the officer concerned might provide that justification just after Parliament had risen, and would then have to continue in office, although responsible for some act which in the opinion of the Minister he should not have committed, until the next meeting of Parliament. He could not be dealt with in any other way. That would not be desirable. I remind the committee that there is very little likelihood of this power being used. A similar provision in regard to the Commonwealth Public Service Board exists. </para>
        </talk.start>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1518</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Lynch</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- But this is an exceptional case. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <para>
          <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Sir GEORGE</inline>PEARCE.The Public Service Board comes in very close contact with Parliament and the Public Service. Its actions are criticized and attacked, but no Minister would think of suspending a member of the Public Service Board unless he could justify his action before Parliament. As a similar provision exists in other statutes, and has never been abused, I ask <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Lynch</inline> to allow the clause to pass in its present form. There is always the power of Parliament over the Minister, who would not suspend the officer unless there was good cause. </para>
        <para>Clause agreed to. </para>
        <para>Clauses8 and 9 agreed to. </para>
        <para>Clause 10 (Director to devote whole time to duty.) </para>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>1518</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
            <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
            <party />
            <role />
            <in.gov>0</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
            <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
          </talker>
          <para>.- The clause reads- </para>
        </talk.start>
        <quote>
          <para>The director shall, except to the extent (if any) to which the Minister otherwise allows, devote the whole of his time to the performance of his duties under this act. . . . </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">I should like the Minister to explain the meaning of the words &#34; except to the extent (if any) to which the Minister otherwise allows.&#34; The clause appears to mean that apart from the director&#39;s statutory duties there are other duties which the Minister in the exercise of his powers may direct this official to perform. That would be a clear interference with the director. I do not know the intention, but the use of these words appears to have a sinister significance. The clause suggests that the Minister may order the director to undertake work altogether apart from the duties provided in the bill. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1518</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KTR</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MCLACHLAN, Alexander</name>
              <name role="display">Senator McLachlan</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- It is only permissive. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1518</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LYNCH</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Will it not give the Minister power to direct this official to do duties other than those provided in the bill? If the director carries out his duties fearlessly and in an independent manner, it is conceivable that he may collide with some Minister, who in the exercise of his powers under this provision may direct him to do certain work foreign to his office. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
        <para>
          <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Sir GEORGE</inline>PEARCE (Western Australia - Vice-President of the Executive Council) &#91;9.38&#93;. - These words have been deliberately included in the clause, because we believe that the services of the director may at times be of use to the State Governments. A State Government might ask for an examination into some subject which could be efficiently conducted by this officer. This clause will give the Minister power to allow that to be done. Similar action has already been taken in connexion with the Development and Migration Commission and the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research. On one occasion the Tasmanian Government asked for the services of certain officers of the Development and Migration Commission, and these were made available. In another instance the services of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research were made available to State authorities. As it is thought that similar requests may be made under this measure, the clause has been drafted to give the Minister power to permit the director to undertake such work. </para>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1518</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Lynch</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Is it not possible for this power to be abused? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1518</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K0F</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Sir GEORGE PEARCE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I do not think so. There is also the possibility of the director being asked to deliver university lectures. Under this provision he can be permitted to undertake such duties. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <para>Clause agreed to. </para>
        <para>Clauses 11 to 13 agreed to. </para>
        <para>Title agreed to. </para>
        <para>Bill reported without amendment; report adopted. </para>
        <para>Bill read a third time. </para>
      </speech>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>GOLD-MINING INDUSTRY</title>
        <page.no>1519</page.no>
        <type>miscellaneous</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>1519</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>K0F</name.id>
            <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
            <party>NAT</party>
            <role>Vice President of the Executive Council</role>
            <in.gov>1</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
            <name role="display">Senator Sir GEORGE PEARCE</name>
          </talker>
          <para>&#91;9.42&#93;. - <inline font-style="italic">(By leave.)</inline> - The Government, after consideration of the recommendations of the Development and Migration Commission in regard to financial assistance to the gold-mining industry in its developmental aspects, has decided to make available an amount of &#163;25,000. This sum will be disbursed through the Prime Minister&#39;s Department. Grants for developmental purposes will he made from such vote in particular cases which are recommended from time to time by the Development and Migration Commission after consideration of the applications made for assistance. The conditions governing such assistance will be - </para>
        </talk.start>
        <list type="decimal-dotted">
          <item label="1.">
            <para>That the development proposed has some prospect of finding employment for large numbers of people. </para>
          </item>
          <item label="2.">
            <para>That there is a reasonable prospect of continuance for a substantial period of time in the life of the mine. </para>
          </item>
          <item label="3.">
            <para>That the proposals for development are on a sound economic and efficient basis. </para>
          </item>
          <item label="4.">
            <para>That the company has shown a reasonable disposition to obtain as much of the plant required as can be economically produced in Australia. </para>
          </item>
          <item label="5.">
            <para>Companies making applications for assistance to supply full statements of their proposals, of plant already obtained or to be obtained, and whether purchased or to be purchased in Australia or abroad. </para>
          </item>
        </list>
      </speech>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>SEAT OF GOVERNMENT ACCEPTANCE BILL</title>
        <page.no>1519</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Bill received from the House of Representatives. </para>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>1519</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>K0F</name.id>
            <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
            <party>NAT</party>
            <role>Vice President of the Executive Council</role>
            <in.gov>1</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
            <name role="display">Senator Sir GEORGE PEARCE</name>
          </talker>
          <para>&#91;9.44&#93;. - I move - </para>
        </talk.start>
        <quote>
          <para>That so much of the Standing and Sessional Orders be suspended as would prevent the hill being passed through all its stages without delay. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">No new principle is embodied in this measure, which merely provides a means of overcoming certain disabilities in connexion with the estates of deceased persons in the Federal Capital Territory. </para>
        <para>Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
        <para>Bill (on motion by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Sir William</inline> Glasgow) read a first time. </para>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>1519</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>KLU</name.id>
            <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
            <party>NAT</party>
            <role>Minister for Defence</role>
            <in.gov>1</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">GLASGOW, William</name>
            <name role="display">Senator Sir WILLIAM GLASGOW</name>
          </talker>
          <para>&#91;9.45&#93;. - I move - </para>
        </talk.start>
        <quote>
          <para>That the bill be now read a second time. </para>
        </quote>
        <para>For some years the Supreme Court of New South Wales has been exercising jurisdiction in relation to the grant of probate and letters of administration in respect of the estates of deceased persons in the Territory for the Seat of Government. Section 8 of the Seat of Government Acceptance Act 1909, however, appears to vest this jurisdiction in the High Court, and doubts have recently been raised as to the validity of the grants made by the Supreme Court. The object of the present bill is to remove these doubts by validating all grants made by the Supreme Court of New South Wales prior to the date on which the bill comes into force, namely, a date to be fixed by the Governor-General by proclamation. </para>
        <para>Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
        <para>Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate. </para>
      </speech>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>INCOME TAX ASSESSMENT BILL 1929</title>
        <page.no>1519</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Bill received from the House of Representatives. </para>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>1519</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>K0F</name.id>
            <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
            <party>NAT</party>
            <role>Vice-President of the Executive Council</role>
            <in.gov>1</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
            <name role="display">Senator Sir GEORGE PEARCE</name>
          </talker>
          <para>&#91;9.49&#93;. - I move - </para>
        </talk.start>
        <quote>
          <para>That so much of the Standing and Sessional Orders be suspended as would prevent the bill being passed through all its stages without delay. </para>
        </quote>
        <para class="block">The Opposition has intimated that it does not desire to delay this measure, but other honorable senators may desire an adjournment. I want them to understand that the Government will not object to the debate being adjourned after the Minister&#39;s second-reading speech has been delivered. </para>
        <para class="block">Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
        <para class="block">Bill (on motion by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McLachlan)</inline> read a first time. </para>
      </speech>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Second Reading</title>
          <page.no>1520</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1520</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KTR</name.id>
              <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
              <party>NAT</party>
              <role>Assistant Minister</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MCLACHLAN, Alexander</name>
              <name role="display">Senator MCLACHLAN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - I move - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para class="block">That the bill be now read a second time. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">It is proposed by this bill to make effective the amendment of sub-section 1 of section 21 of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1922-27, which was made by the amending act of 1928. The legislation of last year was designed to protect the revenue from the heavy loss which threatened it as a result of the judgment of the Supreme Court of Victoria in the appeal <inline font-style="italic">Kellow-Falkiner Pty. Co. Ltd.</inline> v. <inline font-style="italic">The Commissioner of Taxation.</inline> That judgment declared that the law as it then stood required the Commissioner to ascertain whether a company had, during a Commonwealth financial year in which the company derived its taxable income, distributed at least two-thirds of that taxable income among its members or shareholders. If the company had not made such a distribution during that year, the Commissioner could call upon it to pay additional tax at shareholders&#39; rates upon the difference between the actual distribution, if any, made by it during that year out of the taxable income mentioned and two-thirds of that taxable income. That judgment prevented the Commissioner from substituting a company&#39;s own accounting period for a Commonwealth financial year where the two years differed, or from taking into consideration any distributions which the company might have made out of the income after the close of its own income year, or after the close of a Commonwealth financial year where the company&#39;s year ended on the 30th June. The practice of the Commissioner had been to take into consideration all distributions made by a company out of its taxable income, whether made during or subsequent to the close of the company&#39;s income year up to the date when the Commissioner determined to apply section 21 to the company&#39;s case. Very few companies are in a position to make a distribution during an income year out of the profits of that year. As a general rule, a company waits until the close of its income year before ascertaining its profits and before deciding how much of the profits shall be distributed. The judgment of the Supreme Court of Victoria already referred to had the effect of invalidating all previous determinations by the Commissioner under section 21 and all consequential assessments, because the Commissioner had not in any case applied his mind to ascertain whether or not during a Commonwealth financial year the company had made any distributions of the profits derived in that year. The 1928 act provided that the existing subsection 1 of section 21 should be replaced by a new provision which should be deemed to have retrospective operation to the date of commencement of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1922, namely, the 18th October, 1922. The 19.28 act provided that where a company has not before such date prior to the making of the Commissioner&#39;s determination as is fixed by the Commissioner, distributed among its members or shareholders at least twothirds of its taxable income, the company will be liable to pay the additional tax provided by the section. The retrospective operation of this provision made it necessary for the Commissioner to have fixed such a date in connexion with all past determinations. This had not, however, been done and could not be done <inline font-style="italic">ex post facto.</inline> The 1928 act did not contain any provision definitely validating  all  past determinations and consequential assessments, so that the department was not able to take any action to claim additional tax by making assessments upon existing determinations where assessments had not already been made. The additional revenue which -it was intended should be collected in such cases, could not legally be collected. The authority of Parliament is now being sought to enable the Commissioner to make assessments and collect tax in such cases. This bill will validate all past assessments, notwithstanding that no date had been fixed, and all assessments which have been made, notwithstanding that the company&#39;s trading year did not coincide with the Commonwealth financial year. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1520</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K8P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">THOMPSON, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Thompson</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  To what extent will this legislation be retrospective? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1520</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KTR</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">MCLACHLAN, Alexander</name>
                <name role="display">Senator McLACHLAN</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Only as far as was intended in the act passed last year. I commend the measure to the Senate. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para class="block">Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
          <para>Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without amendment or debate. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>DRIED FRUITS EXPORT CHARGES BILL</title>
        <page.no>1521</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Bill received from the House of Representatives. </para>
      <para>Standing and Sessional Orders suspended. </para>
      <para>Bill (on motion by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Ogden)</inline> read a first time. </para>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>ADJOURNMENT</title>
        <page.no>1521</page.no>
        <type>adjournment</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Assistance to Gold-mining Industry. </para>
      <para>Motion (by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Sir George</inline> Pearce) proposed - </para>
      <quote>
        <para>That the Senate do now adjourn. </para>
      </quote>
      <para>SenatorLYNCH (Western Australia) &#91;10.0&#93;. - I was absent from the chamber when the Leader of the Senate made ft statement regarding the gold-mining industry. I understand that &#163;25,000 is to be provided to encourage that industry. I should like to know whether that sum represents the whole of the assistance proposed to be granted, or whether it is merely an instalment of assistance. If the full assistance by the Government is to be confined to a grant of &#163;25,000, I ask the Leader of the Senate whether an opportunity will be afforded us to-morrow to discuss the matter. </para>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>1521</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>K0F</name.id>
            <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
            <party>NAT</party>
            <role>Vice-President of the Executive Council</role>
            <in.gov>1</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
            <name role="display">Senator Sir GEORGE PEARCE</name>
          </talker>
          <para>&#91;10.0&#93;. - I cannot see how the matter can be discussed except on the motion for adjournment. But I remind the honorable senator that this is only one phase of the assistance given by the Commonwealth Government to the State of Western Australia. The State already holds in suspense &#163;200,000, part of a grant made by the Commonwealth some two or three years ago. The grant which I have mentioned to-night is for the current financial year, and is made in the special circumstances outlined in the conditionsI mentioned. </para>
        </talk.start>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1521</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KRZ</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LYNCH, Patrick</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Lynch</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- To whom was the &#163;200,000 given ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1521</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K0F</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">PEARCE, George</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Sir GEORGE PEARCE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- To the Government of Western Australia. It is held in a suspense account for the use of the gold-mining industry. I believe it was part of a special grant of &#163;350,000, of which &#163;200,000 still remains unused in the hands of the State Government. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <para class="block">Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
        <para class="block">Senate adjourned at 10.2 p.m. </para>
      </speech>
    </debate>
  </chamber.xscript>
</hansard>