19430225_senate_16_173.xml

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  <session.header>
    <date>1943-02-25</date>
    <parliament.no>16</parliament.no>
    <session.no>1</session.no>
    <period.no>8</period.no>
    <chamber>SENATE</chamber>
    <page.no>974</page.no>
    <proof>0</proof>
  </session.header>
  <chamber.xscript>
    <para class="block">Senate </para>
    <business.start>
      <day.start>1943-02-25</day.start>
      <para>The <inline font-weight="bold">President (Senator the Hon. J. Cunningham)</inline> took the chair at3 p.m., and read prayers. </para>
    </business.start>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>DEATH OF MAJOR THE HONORABLE A. H. P. HORE-RUTHVEN</title>
        <page.no>974</page.no>
        <type>miscellaneous</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>974</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>10000</name.id>
            <electorate />
            <party />
            <role />
            <in.gov>0</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">PRESIDENT, The</name>
            <name role="display">The PRESIDENT</name>
          </talker>
          <para>-  I have received from  His Excellency  the GovernorGeneral a letter requesting me to inform honorable senators of the great comfort which their resolution of sympathy had given to the Lady Gowrie and himself in the irreparable loss which they had so suddenly sustained by the death of their only son. </para>
        </talk.start>
      </speech>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>DEFENCE (CITIZEN MILITARY FORCES) BILL 1943</title>
        <page.no>974</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Assent reported. </para>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS OF THE SENATE</title>
        <page.no>974</page.no>
        <type>miscellaneous</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>974</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>KAY</name.id>
            <electorate>VICTORIA</electorate>
            <party />
            <role />
            <in.gov>0</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">GIBSON, William</name>
            <name role="display">Senator GIBSON</name>
          </talker>
          <para>-Can the Leader of the Senate make better arrangements for conducting the business of the Senate than those observed recently. Meeting one or two days a week causes great inconvenience to honorable senators. Surely we could sit four days a week, if necessary, and finish our business without the long delays that occur. </para>
        </talk.start>
      </speech>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>974</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>K7P</name.id>
            <electorate>QUEENSLAND</electorate>
            <party>ALP</party>
            <role>Minister for the Interior</role>
            <in.gov>1</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
            <name role="display">Senator COLLINGS</name>
          </talker>
          <para>- EverythingI can possibly do is being done to meet the convenience of honorable senators, but the sittings of the Senate are arranged in accordance with the state of business in the House of Representatives. </para>
        </talk.start>
        <interjection>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>974</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KAY</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">GIBSON, William</name>
              <name role="display">Senator Gibson</name>
            </talker>
            <para>-  Why not adjourn for a fortnight or three weeks? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </interjection>
        <continue>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>974</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K7P</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
              <name role="display">Senator COLLINGS</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- My intention last week was to ask the Senate not to meet this week, but, as I indicated when speaking about the last adjournment, the Prime Minister expressed the desire that the Senate should meet this week not later than Thursday, because of the urgency of certain measures that will shortly be received by the Senate. I have been in touch with the Prime Minister to-day, and I am not in a position  to  announce for what period the Senate will adjourn at the end of this week. The Government is anxious that we should be in readiness to deal with any urgent business which may be transmitted to us, but I shall do my best to meet the convenience of honorable senators. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </continue>
      </speech>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>AUSTRALIAN ARMY</title>
        <page.no>974</page.no>
        <type>miscellaneous</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Absence Without Leave</title>
          <page.no>974</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>974</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K0W</name.id>
              <electorate>NEW SOUTH WALES</electorate>
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role>Minister for Information</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">ASHLEY, William</name>
              <name role="display">Senator ASHLEY</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- On the 17th February last, <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Brand</inline> asked me, as the Minister representing the AttorneyGeneral, whether the Government could take any action to enforce Statutory Rules 1942, No. 370, relating to the harbouring of absentee members of the forces. The Attorney-General has now supplied me with the following answer :  - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>Any person who contravenes or fails to comply with any regulation made under the National Security Act is guilty of an offence against the act and punishable accordingly. In any case where there is sufficient evidence available to establish a <inline font-style="italic">prima facie</inline> case against any person for assisting or harbouring absentees from the forces without leave, proceedings will be instituted forthwith, and, on conviction, a penalty not exceeding afine of &#163;100 or imprisonment for six months, or both, may be imposed on the personso offending. </para>
          </quote>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>975</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>FLAX</title>
          <page.no>975</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>975</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKR</name.id>
              <electorate>WESTERN AUSTRALIA</electorate>
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role>Minister for External Territories</role>
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator FRASER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - <inline font-style="italic">by leave</inline> - I wish to refer to statements made in the Senate by Senators Aylett, Herbert Hays and J. B. Hayes on the 16th February last. Those honorable senators appealed, first, for an increase of. the price of flax, and, secondly, for payment of compensation to growers who lost their crops last year because of the adverse season. The question of price is discussed each year with representatives of growers in all the flax-growing States, who meet in Melbourne for that purpose. The price is based on the estimated cost of production and the estimated yield of flax an acre. Unfortunately, owing to the bad season experienced in certain districts, principally in Tasmania, in 1942, the crop for that year was not a good one. Requests for compensation because of the total or partial failure have been submitted from certain districts, and are now receiving consideration. Honorable senators will realize that an important principle is involved in this matter and that indiscriminate granting of compensation to primary producers whenever abad season is experienced could react most unfavorably on the whole economic structure of the community.Whilst flax has been grown for the purpose of producing a necessary material of war, the pressure from growers and districts all over Australia for permission to grow flax is an indication that many farmers think it a crop worth growing. In many districts, the returns to growers have been far from unsatisfactory, and the growers in those districts are certainly not ruined. It is true that a guarantee against loss was given in the first year of production. This was done because of the late sowing, the necessity for quick and insufficient preparation of the land and the fact that the seed had not been distributed because it had to come from the United Kingdom. But it was made clear that the guarantee was for one year only and subsequent attempts by sections of the growers to have the guarantee restored have been rejected by the growers themselves. Reference has been made to the development of this industry as a postwar industry. I warm honorable senators that that will not be possible at &#163;10 a ton for straw. That price would represent well over &#163;100 a ton for fibre, without allowing anything at all for costs of obtaining the fibre from the straw. On such a basis, Australian producers could not hope to compete with those overseas. The Government is in favour of a reasonable price for flax, and the figures submittedby the Federal Flax-growers Executive at its half-yearly meeting with the Flax Production Committee this month are now under consideration for the purpose of determining the conditions which will be offered for the 1943 flaxsowing. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>975</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K0Z</name.id>
              <electorate>TASMANIA</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">AYLETT, William</name>
              <name role="display">Senator AYLETT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Is it a fact that the Flax Production Committee is spending thousands of pounds on experiments with machinery and plant for the development of the flax industry and, at the same time, holding out no hope that it will become a post-war industry? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>975</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKR</name.id>
              <electorate>WESTERN AUSTRALIA</electorate>
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role>Minister for External Territories</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator FRASER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I am not aware that the Flax Production Committee is spending thousands of pounds on experiments, but it is true that research is being continued with a view to reducing production costs in the industry. I hope that as the result of that research we shall be able to retain this most important industry in the post-war period. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>975</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">AYLETT, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator AYLETT</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Can the Minister say whether representations have been made to the British Government for an increase of the price for flax fibre? It not, will he consider making such representations with a view to offsetting the loss now incurred in producing flax fibre in Australia - a loss which is borne by the taxpayers in the interests of the war effort? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>975</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KKR</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
                <name role="display">Senator FRASER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- That matter is now under consideration. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>975</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>WOOL STORAGE</title>
          <page.no>975</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>975</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K6N</name.id>
              <electorate>WESTERN AUSTRALIA</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">CLOTHIER, Robert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator CLOTHIER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>-Will the Minister representing the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture inform the Senate whether many additional wool storage buildings have been erected in city areas since the outbreak of war, and whether the Government&#39;s policy of establishing  country storages is to be linked with postwar development ? Will he also state what savings in transport are likely to result from this decentralization plan? Have the towns selected been approved by any outside bodies? Were representatives of woolbroking organizations in Canberra last week for the purpose of attempting to sabotage the Government&#39;s proposals? If the plan is to be associated with postwar development, will the Minister make a detailed statement covering the whole matter ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>976</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKR</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator FRASER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I shall endeavour to accede to the honorable senator&#39;s request and have a statement prepared on the subject for submission to the Senate. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>976</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>CORNSACKS</title>
          <page.no>976</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>976</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K6N</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">CLOTHIER, Robert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator CLOTHIER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Is the Minister representing the Minister for Commerce and Agriculture in a position to say whether the Australian Wheat Board contemplates taking over the importation and distribution of cornsacks? If so, what savings are likely to be effected? Is the Minister aware that representatives of jute merchants visited Canberra last week in order to organize opposition to the proposal? </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>SenatorFRASER. - I shall endeavour to obtain the information sought by the honorable senator. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>976</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>COMMONWEALTH ELECTIONS</title>
          <page.no>976</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>976</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K2F</name.id>
              <electorate>VICTORIA</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">BRAND, Charles</name>
              <name role="display">Senator BRAND</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Will the Government make it obligatory for electors to produce their identity cards when asking for ballot-papers at the next general elections ? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>976</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K7P</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
              <name role="display">Senator COLLINGS</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The matter will receive attention. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>976</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>BROADCASTING</title>
          <page.no>976</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>Censorship of Addressscript</para>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>976</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K6P</name.id>
              <electorate>QUEENSLAND</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">BROWN, Gordon</name>
              <name role="display">Senator BROWN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Can the Leader of the Senate say whether the decision of the Chief Censor is final, or whether there is any method whereby the Government can override his decision should it consider a decision to be wrong? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>976</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K7P</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
              <name role="display">Senator COLLINGS</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- There is no interference whatever by the Government with the work of the Chief Censor. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>976</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KS7</name.id>
              <electorate>WESTERN AUSTRALIA</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MACDONALD, Allan</name>
              <name role="display">Senator ALLAN MacDONALD</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Prime Minister, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>In view of the answer to the question asked by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Allan</inline> MacDonald on the 12th instant on the subject of censorship, will the Leader of the Government lay on the table of the Senate the scripts of the last twelve broadcastsmade over the commercial stations at Perth by a <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Beeby</inline> speaking on behalf of the local Communists? </para>
          </quote>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>976</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator COLLINGS</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- The Prime Minister has supplied the following answer :  - </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <quote>
            <para>Under the Press Censorship Order gazetted by the previous Government, it is not permissible to publish any statement to the effect that publication of any matter has been amended, altered, added to, or forbidden by a publicity censor. It is not, therefore, considered desirable to lay on the table of the Senate the broadcast scripts asked for by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Allan</inline> MacDonald. There is, however, no objection to the honorable senator calling upon the Chief Publicity Censor, who no doubt will furnish him privately with convincing evidence that <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Beeby&#39;s</inline> scripts, like those of other commentators, are censored on their merits and in a completely non-partisan way. Alternatively, he could call upon the State Censor when next he is in Perth, and obtain the information there. </para>
          </quote>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>976</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>MINISTERIAL VISITS TO WESTERN AUSTRALIA</title>
          <page.no>976</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>976</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K6N</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">CLOTHIER, Robert</name>
              <name role="display">Senator CLOTHIER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- Will the Minister for the Interior bring before his colleagues at the next Cabinet meeting the desirability of Commonwealth Ministers visiting Western Australia in order to become acquainted with conditions in that State? </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>976</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K7P</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
              <name role="display">Senator COLLINGS</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- I shall take all steps possible to secure visits by Ministers to Western Australia. </para>
          </talk.start>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>976</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>CIVIL AVIATION</title>
          <page.no>976</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>Priorities for Air Travel</para>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>976</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KQF</name.id>
              <electorate>TASMANIA</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LAMP, Charles</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LAMP</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Minister for Civil Aviation, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>Is it a fact that certain members of the Air Force are not allowed to travel on the commercial airways between Melbourne and Tasmania; if so, why? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>Is it a fact that the National Security Regulations provide for priorities for air travel only for those travelling for the security or defence of the Commonwealth and the efficient prosecution of the war? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="3.">
              <para>If so, will the Minister provide a central office or make suitable arrangements whereby members of the fighting services can obtain priority bookings? </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>977</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>L8E</name.id>
              <electorate>VICTORIA</electorate>
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role>Minister for Aircraft Production</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">CAMERON, Donald</name>
              <name role="display">Senator CAMERON</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The Minister for Civil Aviation has supplied the following reply: - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>Any person whether a member of the Air Force or not is allowed to travel on the airways between Melbourne and Tasmania when seats are available. </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>Yes. </para>
            </item>
            <item label="3.">
              <para>There is no necessity for the establishment of a central office to enable members of the fighting services to arrange priority bookings by air. When service personnel are required to travel on duty facilities exist within their respective movements branches to arrange priority bookings. For those desiring to travel when not on duty clause 1 applies. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>977</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>ALLIEDWORKS COUNCIL</title>
          <page.no>977</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>Position of Director-General of AlliedWorks. </para>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>977</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUA</name.id>
              <electorate>SOUTH AUSTRALIA</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MCLEAY, George</name>
              <name role="display">Senator McLEAY</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister for the Interior, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>Is it a fact that some Labour members in the Federal Parliament aretrying to undermine and belittle the Honorable E. G. Theodore, the Director-General of the Allied Works Council? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>Is it a fact that prominent American officials have congratulated the Government or the Minister for the Interior on the splendid job of work that has been done by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Theodore</inline> ? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="3.">
              <para>Is it a fact that the Minister for Labour and National Service, the Honorable E. J. Ward, refuses to stand by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Theodore</inline> in his efforts to maintain discipline? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="4.">
              <para>Is it a fact that, because of lack of support by the Government, <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Theodore</inline> has said that law and order have been subordinated to union control and mob rule? </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>977</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K7P</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
              <name role="display">Senator COLLINGS</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The answers to the honorable senator&#39;s questions are as follows :  - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>No. </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>Yes. </para>
            </item>
            <item label="3.">
              <para>No. </para>
            </item>
            <item label="4.">
              <para>No. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>977</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>AIRCRAFT PRODUCTION</title>
          <page.no>977</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>Overtime</para>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>977</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUA</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MCLEAY, George</name>
              <name role="display">Senator McLEAY</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister for Aircraft Production, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>Has the Minister&#39;s attention been drawn to a statement in the <inline font-style="italic">Canberra Times</inline> of the 18th February to the effect that 600 workers at an aircraft maintenance and repair depot near Melbourne have decided on a ban on overtime, claiming that with a week of 50 hours they were absent from their homes for a longer period than was necessary, and affirming that they, will work only 44 hours a week? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>If so, will the Minister inform the Senate whether be himself intends to take any action to see that such vital war work is not inter fered with in this way, or, ifhe himself is not going to take action, whether it is intended to refer the matter to the Attorney-General or the Minister for Labour and National Service in order that action may be taken under the National Security Regulations to prevent this unnecessary sabotage of the Australian war effort? </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>977</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>L8E</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">CAMERON, Donald</name>
              <name role="display">Senator CAMERON</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The answers to the honorable senator&#39;s questions are as follows :  - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>I have not seen the statement, but it is a fact that there is a dispute at an aircraft maintenance and repair depot near Melbourne, as a result of which a considerable number of men are not working overtime. </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>Action has already been taken under the National Security (Industrial Peace) Regulations, and the matter is before the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration. A procedure has been agreed upon by the parties concerned, which, it is believed, should settle the dispute in the immediate future. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>977</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>COAL PRODUCTION</title>
          <page.no>977</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>977</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K3L</name.id>
              <electorate>TASMANIA</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">SAMPSON, Burford</name>
              <name role="display">Senator SAMPSON</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Minister for Supply and Shipping, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>What amount of coal, in tons, was produced in the Commonwealth for the years ended the 31st December, 1939, 1940, 1941 and 1942? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>What was the output, in tons, per man engaged in the coal-mining industry, for each of the years enumerated above? </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>977</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKR</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator FRASER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The Minister for Supply and Shipping has furnished the following replies :  - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>1939, 13,535,142 tons; 1940, 11,716,682 tons; 1941, 14,212,450 tons; and 1942, 14,971,893 tons. </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>1939, 626.6 tons; 1940, 524.5 tons; 1941, 629 tons; and 1942,686. 1 tons. Figures relating to the output per man have been established only by dividing the total output for the respective years by the number of men officially recorded as being employed in the industry for the relevant year. They do not indicate the output per man per shift. Nor is there any information readily available which would enable me to arrive at this figure. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>977</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>SYNTHETIC RUBBER</title>
          <page.no>977</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>977</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KQF</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LAMP, Charles</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LAMP</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Minister for Supply and Shipping, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>With the object of relieving the acute rubber shortage, will the Minister make further inquiries as to the possibility of the manufacture of synthetic rubber from carbide products in Tasmania ? </para>
          </quote>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>978</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKR</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator FRASER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The Minister for Supply and Shipping has supplied the following answer :  - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>The Council for Scientific and Industrial Research is continuing its research and investigation for the manufacture of synthetic rubber and the possibility of its production from carbide will receive further consideration. </para>
          </quote>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>978</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>VOLUNTEER DEFENCE CORPS</title>
          <page.no>978</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>978</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KQF</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LAMP, Charles</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LAMP</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Minister for the Army, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>What is the position in regard to the issue of trench mortars and sub-machine guns to the Volunteer Defence Corps in Tasmania? </para>
          </quote>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>978</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKR</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator FRASER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The Minister for the Army has supplied the following answer :  - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>For security reasons, it is not possible to particularize regarding equipment issued to the Military Forces. The honorable senator may be assured that the issue of mortars and sub-machine guns to the Volunteer Defence Corps in Tasmania has been made in accordance with the authorized allotment of weapons to respective units in the area, based on present resources and having due regard to strategic requirements. </para>
          </quote>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>978</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>CRUISER CANBERRA</title>
          <page.no>978</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>Control of Canteen</para>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>978</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KQF</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LAMP, Charles</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LAMP</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Minister for the Navy, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>Will the Minister issue instructions, when the new cruiser <inline font-style="italic">Canberra</inline> is commissioned in Australia, for the canteen to be conducted on a co-operative basis by the. ship&#39;s company for the benefit of the ship&#39;s company instead of being let by tender? </para>
          </quote>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>978</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K0W</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">ASHLEY, William</name>
              <name role="display">Senator ASHLEY</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The Minister for the Navy has supplied the following answer :  - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>The canteen tenant of the cruiser <inline font-style="italic">Canberra</inline> which was lost will conduct the canteen in the new ship. Experience has been that the existing system is satisfactory. The rental is credited to the ship&#39;s fund and used for the welfare of the men. Prices are controlled through a canteen committee on which the men are represented. </para>
          </quote>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>978</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>TASMANIAN COMMISSIONER OF TRANSPORT</title>
          <page.no>978</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>Remuneration of Mr. M. S. Wilson</para>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>978</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K0Z</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">AYLETT, William</name>
              <name role="display">Senator AYLETT</name>
            </talker>
            <para>asked the Minister representing the Minister for Transport, <inline font-style="italic">upon notice -</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>What is the total annual remuneration, if any, either as salary or as a stated allowance or otherwise in lieu of salary, which is received by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. M.</inline> S. Wilson, Commissioner of Transport in Tasmania, as Director of Emergency Road Transport in the Commonwealth ? </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>What allowance for expenses while away from home is received by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Wilson?</inline></para>
            </item>
            <item label="3.">
              <para>What other offices in the Commonwealth Government are held by <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Wilson?</inline></para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>978</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKR</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator FRASER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- The Minister for Transport has supplied the following answers :  - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <list type="decimal-dotted">
            <item label="1.">
              <para>Nil. </para>
            </item>
            <item label="2.">
              <para>No doubt <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Wilson</inline> receives the normal travelling allowance to which he is entitled as a State officer. He is not paid any travelling allowance by the Commonwealth. 3. (a)  Chairman,  State Liquid Fuel Control Board. (b) Delegate of the Commonwealth Coal Commission in relation to supply and distribution of coal in Tasmania. It is understood that <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Wilson</inline> does not receive any remuneration or allowance in relation to these offices. </para>
            </item>
          </list>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>PUBLIC WORKS COMMITTEE</title>
        <page.no>978</page.no>
        <type>miscellaneous</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Message received from the House of Representatives intimating that <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Mulcahy</inline> had been appointed a member of the Public Works Committee in place of <inline font-weight="bold">Mr. Stacey,</inline> resigned. </para>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>LOAN BILL 1943</title>
        <page.no>978</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Bill received from the House of Representatives. </para>
      <para>Standing and Sessional Orders suspended. </para>
      <para>Bill (on motion by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Fraser)</inline> read a first time. </para>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Second Reading</title>
          <page.no>978</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>
          <inline font-weight="bold">Senator FRASER</inline>(Western Australia- </para>
        <para>Minister for External Territories) &#91;3.28&#93;.-I move- </para>
        <quote>
          <para>That the bill be now read a second time. </para>
        </quote>
        <para>The bill seeks authority to borrow &#163;100,000,000 for the purposes of war expenditure in the current financial year; and also an appropriation of that amount to finance war expenditure from loan funds. The Treasurer <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Chifley),</inline> in his recent financial statement, said that expenditure this year was estimated at &#163;540,000,000, of which it was proposed to provide &#163;390,000,000 from loan moneys. War expenditure out of loan funds for the first six months of this financial year totalled &#163;206,000,000. The balance of the loan appropriation at the beginning of the financial year was &#163;86,000,000. </para>
        <para class="block">Further appropriation of &#163;200,000,000 was obtained in October last, making a total of &#163;2S6,000,000. It is expected that the bill will provide sufficient funds for the purpose of covering loan expenditure to the end of the current financial year. </para>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>979</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KOL</name.id>
              <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MCBRIDE, Philip</name>
              <name role="display">Senator McBRIDE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - The bill enables honorable senators to make a general survey of the Government&#39;s financial proposals for the current financial year; but, in order to obtain a complete picture, it is necessary to refer to the financial statement delivered by the Treasurer <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Chifley)</inline> in September, 1942. He then outlined in some detail the particulars of the Government&#39;s proposals for the present financial year. It is interesting to note that on several occasions during that statement the Treasurer made assertions regarding financial policy, which members of both Houses assumed would be the guiding principles of the Government in financing its commitments for the year. For instance, the Treasurer said- if our financial anil economic system is to be kept in balance we must transfer the spending of incomes from civil consumption to war expenditure in approximately the same proportion as we have transferred man-power from pursuits of peace to pursuits of war. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para class="block">That is a. principle to which I hope every honorable senator will subscribe. A little later the Treasurer said - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>Clearly, then, as further physical resources arc provided by the nation for war, so must further financial resources be similarly provided from the savings of the people. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">That, too, is a principle which I heartily endorse. The Treasurer then went on to state how he believed that, in accordance with the principles stated, the Government would finance the coming year&#39;s responsibilities, both civil and war. He added, although I admit that it was very flippantly said - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>Last year we doubled the receipts from public loans and got &#163;120,000,000. If we double them again- </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">As it were, if we think of another figure, and draw on our imagination, or from the air - we shall get &#163;240,000,000- </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>979</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- That is correct. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>979</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">MCBRIDE, Philip</name>
                <name role="display">Senator McBRIDE</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- It is a correct statement, and a very profound one coming from the Treasurer of the Commonwealth, who went on to say - which will take us a long way on our journey. It will leave &#163;00,000,000 to be provided from savings bonds and savings certificates. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para class="block">Therefore, in that statement, the Treasurer intended the Parliament and the people of Australia to assume that the Government was going to finance its responsibilities by taxation and loans. I think that that is a fair description of the statement which the Treasurer made when introducing his budget in September of last year. In order, however, to leave no doubts in the minds of honorable members as to what he meant, he added - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>No legerdemain can produce the needs for war, neither can they bc obtained by easy financial expedients. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">I agree entirely with that statement. In view of those stated principles, I should now like to examine the manner in which the Government has flagrantly departed from the cardinal principles which it laid down for any sound financial policy. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>979</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JQY</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">COURTICE, Benjamin</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Courtice</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Not forgetting the extension of the war. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>979</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">MCBRIDE, Philip</name>
                <name role="display">Senator McBRIDE</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- It is well that we should look at the extension of the war, or of the war effort, because that is one of the matters upon which I hope to make a few comments, seeing that the Treasurer in his financial statement of last September pointed out the increase of expenditure which he expected. He showed that the actual expenditure, both war and civil, for the year 1941-42 was &#163;421,000,000, and that the estimated expenditure for the present financial year was &#163;549,000,000, or an increase of &#163;128,000,000 over the previous year&#39;s estimate. At that time grave doubts arose in the minds of the members of the Opposition in both Houses, who asked for a further assurance that the policy which the Government was going to implement did in fact accord with the financial principles that it had laid down. We found at that early date that, when pressed for a further explanation or confirmation of the way in which the Treasurer had stated, in the paragraphs which I have quoted, that the Government was going to finance its obligations, the Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr.</inline></para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para class="block">Curtin) replied that it was the Government&#39;s policy to finance the war expenditure by &#163;200,000,000 of loan money, instead of the &#163;240,000,000 in direct loans and the &#163;60,000,000 of war savings certificates and war savings bonds previously referred to. In one fell swoop, therefore, the fallacy that the Government was going to follow the financial policy which it had blatantly announced to the people was exposed. The Prime Minister admitted that, instead of raising &#163;300,000,000 from the savings of the people, the Government intended to set out to raise &#163;200,000,000 from that source and that the other &#163;100,000,000 was to come from bank credit. We have had this. year the most extraordinary experience, which I think is unequalled in the history of the Commonwealth Parliament, of finding estimates of expenditure increased by &#163;90,000,000. It is not unusual for the estimates of expenditure to be wrong. As a matter of fact, that is a very usual occurrence, and, in consequence, governments of the day como down in a frank manner and tell Parliament and the country just what&#39; the drift, has been. They state by how much their expectations have been exceeded or. if that ever did happen, they would no doubt state how much the expenditure had fallen short of their estimate. In war-time it is a common experience for Parliament to be faced with expenditure in excess of the estimate, so that it was no surprise to me when the Treasurer brought down a financial statement, which was read in this Bouse by the Minister for Trade and Customs <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Keane),</inline> showing that, his estimate had been wrong to an extraordinary degree. Whereas he had estimated the increase of expenditure over the previous year to be &#163;128,000,000, he now says - and the year is not yet ended - that it will be somewhere in the vicinity of &#163;230,000,000. Thus the Government informed the country that the estimate which it made in September last had proved ridiculously wrong in February. It is usual, when a supplementary financial statement or budget is produced, for the Government to tell the people the way in which it hopes to bridge the gap thus revealed. Yet we find that on this occasion - an occasion, I repeat, unparalleled in the history of the Commonwealth - the Government says to Parliament, and through Parliament to the people, &#34; Our Estimates were wrong; the increase over the expenditure for the previous year has been almost double what we expected &#34;. But not a word is said in regard to what provision is being made for even &#163;1 of that extra expenditure. That is the important point. The Government finds that expenditure will be about &#163;100,000,000 more than was expected and that the revenue will be approximately &#163;10,000,000 more than was expected, thus indicating a drift of &#163;90,000,000, for which, apparently, it is not prepared to make specific provision. In order to cover up the deficiency and conceal the true position from the public, statements &#39;have been made which would lead the people of this country to assume that the Government was still actuated by the cardinal principles of finance laid down in last year&#39;s budget speech, and audaciously reiterated by the Treasurer in his recent financial statement. In addition to the &#163;300,000,000 which was to be raised entirely by means of loans, there is now this balance of &#163;90,000,000, making a grand total of &#163;390,000.000. In his financial statement, the Treasurer said - </para>
          <para>The balance of the finance required to pay  for war services, after exhausting taxation and public borrowing, is being provided by treasury-bills. </para>
          <para class="block">That was the first official intimation by the Government that any of the finance was to be obtained by means of treasurybills, and an endeavour was made to cover it up by forecasting new financial proposals such as taxation increases and so on. Of course we know that all of it will come from treasury-bills. A most extraordinary statement was made by the Minister for External Territories <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Fraser)</inline> in his second-reading speech on this measure when he said that the loan money to bc raised under this bill was all that the Government considered necessary to finance Australia&#39;s war effort up to the end of the current financial year. Just what does that mean? It means that in addition to a drift of &#163;90,000,000 the Government has decided to raise by way of loan not &#163;200,000,000, as was stated by the Prime Minister in the House of Representatives when making an announcement of&#39; the Government&#39;s financial policy last year, but &#163;183,000,000, plus what is obtained from the sales of war savings certificates and war bonds, which is a very small amount. So, in spite of the &#34; hifalutin &#34; statements that have been made in the House  of Representatives on two occasions, we are told now that the Government believes that it is sound financial policy to meet the huge expenditure with which it is confronted by raising &#163;183,000,000 by way of loan and the balance through treasury-bills. That is interesting because in order to lend some colour to its financial proposal, the Government has indicated what it intends to do to meet increased expenditure in the next financial year. The Treasurer has told us that taxation will be imposed* yielding &#163;40,000,000 in a full year, but, in the same breath, he said that the Government intended to  apothecate  three-quarters of that revenue to provide social service benefits. That is the sugar coating on the pill that the Government is administering to taxpayers on the lower and middle income ranges. I have always been in favour of people on all ranges of incomes making a fair contribution to the war effort, but the extraction of taxes should not require a sugar coating such as that. If the facts were put to the people of Australia, I am sure that they would he willing to subscribe in any manner that is fair and necessary. It is just as well that the people should know where the financial policy of the Government is leading us, because there has been quite a lot of &#34; flapdoodle &#34; and camouflage about it. I put it to honorable senators that one of the reasons for the present financial drift is not an increased war effort at all, but inflation which already is attacking this country. The Government cannot deny that since it has been in occupation of the treasury bench the cost of living in this country has increased out of all proportion to increases in other comparable countries such as Canada and New Zealand. When this Administration assumed office, the increases of the cost of living which had occurred during the first two years of the war in this country were in line with increases in </para>
          <para class="block">Canada and New Zealand, but we have now got out of step with these countries, and our costs are increasing at an alarming rate. According to index figures, the cost of living has risen by 12&#163; per cent, since this Government assumed office, and I submit that that increase is a fair indication of increased costs of production. Consequently, we must examine the drift in our finances in relation to those index figures. When such an examination is made, we find this very interesting position: If my assessment of the position be correct - and I submit that it is correct - the bulk of the financial drift has not been due to an increased war effort in this country, but to the increased cost of our war effort. Taking the total expenditure for the current financial , year of &#163;650,000,000, one finds that, on the basis of a cost-of-living increase of 12&#163; per cent., if that be the appropriate figure, more than &#163;81,000,000 out of the drift of &#163;90,000,000 has resulted from the increased cost of production. It is just as well that the people of this country should realize this fact, because the Government is endeavouring to convince them that the increased war expenditure has been due to the increased war effort organized by the Government, whereas, as I have pointed out, it has been due entirely to the increased cost of production. Australia&#39;s war effort has not increased in anything like the same proportion as the cost of that effort. The Government already has fears for the future. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>981</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Has not the honorable senator? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>981</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">MCBRIDE, Philip</name>
                <name role="display">Senator McBRIDE</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I have real fears, and I do not cover them up with the flapdoodle that the Government would like to get away with. If asked on what it based its financial policy, it would no doubt assert that it got advice from certain financial experts, economists and Treasury officials, and that it is acting on that advice. The Opposition cannot know exactly what advice the Government is getting; but I have the most profound distrust of the academic doctrines advanced by many alleged financial experts and economists in this country, who, I believe, are doing a real disservice in encouraging the Government in its financial policy. If the advice of some of these gentlemen were  compared with that tendered by them to a previous Administration less than two years ago, I have no doubt that flagrant discrepancies would be observed. Fortunately for the country, the Government, in its eagerness to show its bona fides in this matter, makes statements at times through the press. Such statements were made concerning another matter discussed in this chamber, and no doubt the Government and the Prime Minister wish that they had never been made. In order to give a certain air of respectability to its financial policy, the Government recently made a statement through &#34; a Government spokesman &#34;. That is a sort of disembodied spirit who often gets into the press, but my own view is that he represents the Prime Minister. I assume that the statement which I shall now read represents the views of the right honorable gentleman. In the press of the 14th December last, the f ollowing statement by &#34; a Government spokesman &#34; was reported :  - </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <quote>
            <para>Reviews which are being made by the Government and the Commonwealth Bank Board- </para>
          </quote>
          <para>The statement was couched in those terms in order to give it an air of respectability in the minds of the people - of current  tendencies in finance will probably lead  to  the intensification of  control  of  spending  in both the war and immediate and  postwar  periods as a <inline font-style="italic">quid pro quo</inline> for  the use  being made of bank credit. </para>
          <para class="block">How beautifully vague are the following words :  - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>It is understood to be common ground between the Government and the Bank Board, on a long-range view, that the danger can be exaggerated- </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">That is, the danger of bank credit -  the thesis being that any use of bank  credit  made in Australia&#39;s war-time budgets  is  more than compensated for- </para>
          <para class="block">I make bold to say that neither the Prime Minister nor the Treasurer believed that statement. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>982</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  They did not make it. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>982</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">MCBRIDE, Philip</name>
                <name role="display">Senator McBRIDE</name>
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              <para>- I have already said who made it -  by the permanent assets the Commonwealth has gained in return for credit employed, such as roads, railways, harbour works, and aerodromes. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para class="block">We do not know what advice is given to the Government by the alleged finan cial experts and economists ; but, fortunately, we are able to gauge what the advice given by the Commonwealth Bank Board was, because, when that statement appeared in the press, the  chairman  of the board, <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Claude</inline> Heading, felt so strongly about it that, probably for the first time during the war, he bad to make a statement to let the people of Australia know that the board is not in accord with the financial policy which the Government is now pursuing. Five days after the publication of the report, the following paragraph appeared: - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>Commenting upon a report from Canberra that there was understood to be common ground between the Government and the Commonwealth Bank Board that, on a longrange view, the inflationary dangers arising from the use of bank credit in the present circumstances can be exaggerated, the  chairman  of the Commonwealth Bank <inline font-weight="bold">(Sir Claude Reading)</inline> stated yesterday that the Bank Board had not expressed itself in such terms on the subject. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">That is what <inline font-weight="bold">Sir Claude</inline> Reading said regarding the statement that the Commonwealth was gaining further capital assets. We know that he is not in agreement with the Government in its attempt to cover up the dangers of inflation as a result of theissue of bank credit. Since we now know that the financial policy of the Government has not the approval of at least one very high financial authority in this country, I ask the Leader of the Senate, in order to allay the fears of the public in this matter, whether he will lay on the table a copy of the communications that have passed between the Commonwealth Bank Board and the Treasurer or the Government on the subject of financial policy, and of the inflationary tendency of the excessive use of bank credit. That is a fair request, and I make it in all sincerity, hoping that the Government will agree to it. Whether that would be sufficient to allay the public fears on the matter I doubt, but some action is necessary to relieve the anxiety of a large section of the people, who see inflationary tendencies in every direction. The people of Australia desire to play their part in the war, and I believe that they are able to do so in the financial realm as well as in other spheres. The Government should therefore make an earnest attempt to equal the efforts of </para>
          <para>New Zealand in financial matters, in which event Australia would be in an extremely good financial position. Our sister dominion, with a smaller population than. Australia, has a government of the same political colour as the Commonwealth Government, but from its experience of administration it has learned some lessons. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>983</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- There are no State parliaments in New Zealand. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>983</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">MCBRIDE, Philip</name>
                <name role="display">Senator McBRIDE</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- When the Labour Government came into office in New Zealand it entertained the same foolish and impracticable ideas that the present Commonwealth Government holds; but fortunately for New Zealand, its government learned its lesson before the commencement of the war. &#39;Consequently, when war broke out it had no hesitation in asking the people to make a worth-while contribution to the financing of the war effort. The people responded magnificently, with the resultthat the Prime Minister of New Zealand, whose word I accept, said recently that over 50 per cent, of the expenditure by his government was derived from taxes. More than 50 per cent, of Canada&#39;s expenditure comes from taxes. Even Great Britain, which is carrying an enormous financial burden, is meeting over 50 per cent, of its expenditure from that source. The best that the Commonwealth Government can do is to derive 40 per cent, of its expenditure from taxes. I am appalled that it will not learn from the experiences of other countries. It has before it the experience of New Zealand and should know that the financial policy of the Labour Government there very nearly brought that dominion to the brink of financial chaos not long after it came into office. We frequently hear that Nazi Germany was able to build up a strong army by the use of bank credit, but the fact is that <inline font-weight="bold">Dr. Schacht</inline> was not prepared to extend credit beyond a certain point. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>983</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JQY</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">COURTICE, Benjamin</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Courtice</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- That is what we say. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>983</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOL</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">MCBRIDE, Philip</name>
                <name role="display">Senator McBRIDE</name>
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              <para>- The trouble is that the Government says certain things, but does not act accordingly. Just as some people in Germany thought that <inline font-weight="bold">Dr. Schacht</inline> did not know what he was doing when he restricted credit, so, I am convinced, a number of honorable senators opposite are of the opinion that credit should be without restriction. They should know that when <inline font-weight="bold">Dr. Schacht</inline> refused to go farther with a policy of credit expansion he was deposed and <inline font-weight="bold">Dr. Funk</inline> was appointed in his place. <inline font-weight="bold">Dr. Funk&#39;s</inline> reign was short, because the people of Germany soon realized what was happening. The result was that <inline font-weight="bold">Dr. Schacht</inline> was recalled. The trouble with us in Australia is that <inline font-weight="bold">Dr. Funk,</inline> not <inline font-weight="bold">Dr. Schacht,</inline> is in charge. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>It has been said that the dangers of inflation are being exaggerated, and that the position can be held in check by the methods which the Government is adopting. I cannot concede that the Government&#39;s methods are effective, because, a3 I have previously pointed out, the increase of the cost of living has doubled since it came into &#39;office. The people of this country are so keen to play their part in the war that they will submit to things which in peace-time would be anathema to them. The Australian people are extraordinarily tolerant in spite of the confusion and disruption of business which is taking place under the guise of necessary war activities. Even if the cheeks imposed by the &#39;Government were effective - which I do not admit because the facts prove otherwise - in time of war the amount of currency in the hands of the people i3 greater than previously, and therefore the checks which are being imposed under the guise of war-time necessity will be carried on for a long time in the post-war period. If not, the very thing which the Government is now setting out to check will take place then. It is well that the people of this country, who are submitting in a good spirit to these checks, should realize that if they allow a financial policy such as is now being followed to continue, the checks will bc continued when the Avar is over. The demand for a relaxation of these checks in the postwar period will be strong, and I question whether any government would be able to resist the pressure of public opinion at such a time. Consequently, I say that the present Government is doing a. disservice to Australia by refusing to face its financial obligations in a proper manner. As an indication of the  extension of credit which is now going on, and in order to show that it is possible to obtain by taxation and loans a great deal more from the people, thereby reducing the necessity for these irritating checks which are undoubtedly affecting our war effort, I point out that in January, 1941, the note issue was ^02,000,000, of which &#163;13,000,000 was held by the banks and &#163;49.000,000 by the public. By November, 1942, it had increased to&#39; &#163;118,000,000 but, whilst the amount held by the banks had increased from &#163;13,000,000 to only &#163;16,000,000, the amount in the hands of the public had increased from &#163;49,000,000 to &#163;102,000,000. Those figures reflect th&#187; volume of spending power at present in the hands of the public. In addition, we must bear in mind the unprecedented expansion of treasury-bills. In June, 1941, just three months before the present Government assumed office, the value of treasury-bills issued amounted to &#163;1,750,000, whereas in June, 1942, nine months after this Government had been in office, it had increased to &#163;78,250,000. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>984</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
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              <para>-  And Japan had then come into the war. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>984</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOL</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">MCBRIDE, Philip</name>
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              <para>- &#34;We have heard a lot about that and the expansion of our war effort; but this expansion of credit, is due not so much to those factors as to inflationary methods. The value of treasurybills, I repeat, increased from &#163;.1,750,000 to &#163;78,250,000 in twelve months; and that movement is progressively gaining momentum. Seven months later it had increased to &#163;203.000.000 That figures does not include &#163;46,000,000 worth, of treasury-bills issued on behalf of the States, which have the same inflationary effect as if they were issued on behalf of the Commonwealth Government. Thus, at the 25th January last we had &#163;249.000,000 worth of unfunded treasury-bills. &#34;We are now told that the Government must meet an expenditure of &#163;390,000,000 over and above receipts from tuxes. Yet the Government intends to sit by complacently, and be satisfied with raising &#163;180,000,000 by way of loan. That will mean a further expansion of bank credit. It is reasonable to conclude from the figures I have given that in the present financial year alone the Government will expand credit by at least &#163;250,000,000. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>984</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KQH</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">LARGE, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Large</name>
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              <para>-  And it will be all to the good. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>984</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">MCBRIDE, Philip</name>
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              <para>- I have no doubt some honorable senators opposite subscribe to the view just expressed by the honorable senator; but it is high time that the people took notice of what is happening. They should realize what is confronting them. Every man in the service to-day expects that the value of the money that he is to receive in deferred pay will approximate the value of money when he entered the service. Every man who pays premiums on an endowment money expects that the money he will receive will be worth approximately what it was at the time the policy was taken out. However, even on current figures, the value of money will have declined by at least 25 per cent. : and if the present inflationary trend is not checked- its value will probably be only one-half, or one-quarter, of what it wa.&#171; at the outbreak of the war. I have no doubt that when the people realize these facts they will vent their disappointment on the Government. They should know the facts. One of the most dreadful things that are happening in this country to-day is the inflationary effect which is rapidly being caused, by the Government&#39;s present policy. On the one hand the Government admits that there has been a financial drift of &#163;90,000,000 since the Treasurer presented his last financial statement, but, on the other hand, it declares that it does not intend to do anything about the matter. It is prepared even to go back on the promise itmade seven months ago, when our financial position was infinitely better than it is to-day. That is an audacious attitude. </para>
            </talk.start>
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          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>984</page.no>
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                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
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              <para>-  Does the honorable senator wish to see the Government obtain this loan? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>984</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOL</name.id>
                <electorate />
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                <name role="metadata">MCBRIDE, Philip</name>
                <name role="display">Senator McBRIDE</name>
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              <para>- Yes, but I also want to see the Government exercise some acumen in respect of its financial policy. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>984</page.no>
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                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
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                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
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              <para>-  Do not attempt to damn this loan. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>984</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
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                <name role="metadata">MCBRIDE, Philip</name>
                <name role="display">Senator McBRIDE</name>
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              <para>- The sooner the people understand the policy of this Government, the better it will be for the country. The Government has been  camouflaging its actions for the last fifteen months, and the people should now be told what is happening. It is a travesty of responsible government when an administration presents two statements of the kind which have been placed before this chamber . I refer to the statement made by the Minister which we are now discussing, and the previous financial statement. My only complaint is that the Government does not propose to raise a loan of twice the amount set out. I shall do all I can to make the loan a success because the public&#39;s only protection lies in the success of the loan. I support the bill. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>985</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>JTR</name.id>
              <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">DARCEY, Richard</name>
              <name role="display">Senator DARCEY</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - I listened with interest to <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride.</inline> He assumed indignation in every word and gesture. Our position tc-day is far too desperate to permit us to yield to such protests. Particularly is this so in respect of war finance. I regret that the honorable senator has just left the chamber.  His  foolish statements regarding finance exhausted me. He told us that when the war commenced the nine private banks held &#163;13,000,000 worth of notes and coins out of a total note issue of &#163;62,000,000, the remainder being in the hands of the public. But he did not tell us how those banks which held only that proportion of the note issue - and most of it belonged to depositors - were able to buy &#163;67,000,000 worth of war bonds and treasury-bills. They did so by writing cheques. The honorable senator referred to <inline font-weight="bold">Dr. Schacht</inline> as the wizard of German finance. <inline font-weight="bold">Dr. Schacht</inline> was the manager of the Reichsbank before the war. He -wanted to finance the war for Germany along the orthodox lines that were being followed in Great Britain. He was &#34; sacked &#34; because Germany found that it could not fight the war on the basis of the old orthodox financial methods. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride</inline> also fails to realize that wars are not fought with money, hut with credit. The Battle of Waterloo has not yet been paid for; and we have paid over &#163;400,000,000 in interest on the debt we incurred in respect of the war of 1914-18. Our problem at the outbreak of this war was whether we should allow the private banks to raise the hundreds of millions worth of credit which we require to fight the war, and to charge the Government interest at the rate of 3^ per cent, for that credit or whether we should obtain the same accommodation through the Commonwealth Bank, interest free. Will any honorable senator deny that that cannot be done? The royal commission appointed by the Lyons Government to inquire into monetary and banking systems stated in paragraph 504 of its report that the Commonwealth Bank can lend money interest free to the Government. The German Government told <inline font-weight="bold">Dr. Schacht</inline> what he must do, and the policy it laid down differs entirely from that adopted in Great Britain and in this country. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride</inline> would have been quite willing to let his banker friends buy all the treasury-bills which were issued. It seems to me that not too many honorable senators understand what a treasurybill is. It is simply an undated or a three months dated promissory note. The private banks can take their treasurybills back to the Commonwealth Bank and demand notes for them. That is why they are not holding too many treasury-bills to-day. The honorable senator said that the Commonwealth Bank Board did not approve of the Government&#39;s methods of finance. Nobody who knew the Commonwealth Bank Board would expect it to agree with the Government&#39;s policy, but the Government rules the board, just as it rules the people, and lays down what shall be done. I remember a manager of the Bank of New South Wales expressing his regret that his bank could get only 10s. per cent, in London for its treasury-bills, whereas in Australia it got 35s. per cent. Eventually that figure was lowered to 30s. per cent., which was the rate when the present Government took office. The private banks are not allowed to buy treasury-bills to-day. I do not altogether approve of what is being done in the raising of these loans, because the cost of raising them is so great. It has been publicly stated that since this Government took office it ha9 cost &#163;1,500,000 to raise the loans. All loans granted by the banking system are issued against the national credit, which belongs to the community. Ever since this Government has been in office members of the Opposition have been warning the people against the use of the national credit, but all moneys that come from the banks are issued against the national credit. All that the banks have to lend against is the wealth of the nation. When a man wants a loan, the banks lend against his real wealth. All that they do is to monetize it. They do not lend him money, they simply extend to him credit, which is only a book entry. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride</inline> showed that he knows very little about finance. He talked of the German system, but he evidently does not understand it. The monetary system in Germany is that everything, including food, clothing and money, is rationed. If a man has a contract to manufacture articles required by the German Government for war purposes, he is allowed 6 per cent, profit, not in money, but in credit at his bank. Then the Government tells him that it wants his money, and so he has to buy bonds for that amount, but he gets 4 per cent, on them. As they get 6 per cent, on their enterprise and 4 per cent, on their profits, all the people in Germany are producing to their utmost capacity. When a trading bank grants a loan, it increases the amount of money in existence, and the new money ranks as purchasing power with existing, money. The bank does not lend its deposits, it creates money and thus uses the nation&#39;s credit. The UsE and value of this new money, as with all money, depends upon the goods and services furnished by the community in return. If there were nothing to buy, money would be valueless. Consequently it is true that the community, which provides these things, is the creditor to the bank loan, and the ownership of the credit issued is resident in the community, not the bank. The bank merely creates and issues the money, and registers the debt. There is an infinitely better system than that which <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride</inline> advocates. It is this - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>All banks shall assume the role of the community&#39;s agents, issuing and recalling credit, using the normal technique they now adopt in granting and requiring the repayment of loans, hut with the vital difference that the credit they lend when granting a loan belongs to the community. Therefore, in the event of a borrower failing to repay his loan, the hank will take over his assets in the name of the community, these assets being held in trust for the  community  and not becoming the property of. the bank. </para>
            <para>The Commonwealth Bank shall bc the central issuing authority of all the nation&#39;s money, including bank credit. </para>
          </quote>
          <para>
            <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride</inline>in his speech entirely misled the people. We know that this &#163;100,000,000 loan must be raised. The only thing that the honorable senator objects to is that it is coming from the Commonwealth Bank instead of his friends, the private banks. This credit will have to be raised, because it is needed. In any human undertaking whoever has the responsibility has the right to decide what shall be done, when it shall be done, and how it shall be done. For that reason the &#39;Curtin Government has the right to ask the people for this sum of money. The trouble is that while the private banks are stopped from buying war bonds, or from financing their dummies to buy them, they are still allowed to buy inscribed stock at the other end of the counter, and that is what 1 object to. It is quite impossible for the private banks with their limited deposits to finance the whole of the credits required in this war. They can lend only against their cash resources, which I admit they can at a pinch multiply eight or nine times. No private bank holds more than about 2s. in the &#163;1 as reserves, and the trouble is that when the people become doubtful about the solvency of the banks they all call on the  banks at once, with the result thaT the banks have to close their doorbecause they have invested&#39; , som, of the people&#39;s money in securities which they cannot recall quickly enough. I am reminded of the story of the run on a Dublin bank. The teller caused the last shovelful of sovereigns to be heated, and when the people burnt their fingers, he explained to  them  that the bank had tons of gold in its vaults, but could not make the sovereigns any quicker. The run on the bank then ceased. This money must be raised in spite of all that <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride</inline> said. The honorable senator did not suggest any other way of getting it. It is agreed that the Government must increase taxation. One man in Sydney said to me, &#34; You are putting the taxes on pretty stiffly up there &#34;. I asked him how much he was paying and when he said, &#34;lOs. in the &#163;l&#34;&#34;, I replied, &#34; They have not started on you yet&#34;. He told me that he had paid &#163;16,000 for an estate on the South Coast, which had valuable timber on it, and he had thought of cutting the timber and selling it, because it was wanted for war purposes, but he refrained from taking that course because he would then have to pay income tax at the rate of 18s. in the &#163;1. In Germany that man would have to cut the trees, because the country needed them. I am simply contrasting the perfect German financial system anil our rotten, system. In total war everything must be made available. We hear a great deal about inflation, leading people to think that it is a dreadful thing, a sort of &#34; black death &#34;, an act of God from which there will be no escape if the Labour Government is allowed to continue in office. After all, inflation is simply the increased cost of production. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride</inline> enlarged upon the increase of our note issue. Does he not realize that there arc thousands of people in work to-day who had no jobs before the war, and that they have to be paid? Obviously they cannot be paid in silver or copper, because there is a shortage of these metals, so they must be paid in notes. That greatly increased wages bill is the main reason for the expanded note issue. However, that is nothing to worry about, because the issuing of notes is in the hands of the Commonwealth Bank. At one time that was a function of the private banks, which made extensive profits from it, but to-day any profits, and they are considerable, are retained by the Commonwealth Bank, and returned to the people. <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride</inline> also said that we should finance the war from taxation. Obviously, it would be impossible to obtain that much money from the pockets of the people. Why, we are spending &#163;1,500,000 a day. Does the honorable senator suggest that that huge sum could be derived from the savings of the people? Obviously, it could not. Wars are not fought with money, but with credit. I am a member of the Economic Society of London, from which I receive reports, including references to financial debates in the British Parliament, and it appears that members of the House of Commons are asking the same question that I am asking in this chamber: Why does the British Government permit the Bank of England to create thousands of millions of pounds of credit out of nothing and lend it to the nation at 3i per cent, interest? Of course, there are representatives of banking interests in the British Parliament, just as there are in this Parliament. When the right honorable member for Kooyong <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Menzies)</inline> was Prime Minister, I asked him if he was prepared to use the Commonwealth Bank to issue the necessary credits for the carrying on of the war, and he replied, &#34;Yes, up to the limit of safety&#34;. That was a purely evasive answer, and when L asked him what the limit of safety was, ho had nothing to say. I informed the right honorable gentleman that the limit of safety would not be passed until the productive capacity of this nation was exceeded. It is interesting to note that in that year Australia provided &#163;950,000,000 worth of goods and services. When the right honorable member for Darling Downs <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Fadden)</inline> became Prime Minister, I asked him was it the intention of his Government to continue to raise the necessary war credits by means of treasury-bills bearing interest at the rate of 3^ per cent., when all the accommodation required could be obtained interest-free from the Commonwealth Bank.  His  reply was, &#34; <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Darcey,</inline> if you can tell me where I can obtain money without paying interest on it, I shall be only too pleased to get it&#34;. That also was an evasive answer. Of course, that right honorable gentleman is a representative of the private banking interests. </para>
          <para>I could talk for hours on the subject, but I think I have said enough to convince <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride</inline> of the fallacy of his arguments. Unfortunately, the honorable senator left the chamber as soon as he had finished his speech. It is a great pity that he did not stay to hear, the other side of the question, although I am afraid that it would have made no difference to his outlook. Obviously he is following the Churchill dictum that it is the duty of an opposition to oppose everything, propose nothing, and put the Government out of office as soon as possible. Unfortunately, that is the spirit which prevails in most of our alleged democratic institutions throughout the. world. That is why we are in trouble to-day. Corrupt governments calling themselves democracies brought the dictators into existence. The destiny of the peoples of the world is in the hands of their governments, and if we cannot charge the present distressing war conditions to governments, to whom can they be charged? It is a pity that honorable senators opposite are not prepared to face the facts squarely; it is always my endeavour to get down to fundamentals. After the last war Germany had eight years of good government under the Weimar administration, but then what happened? The Germans were obliged to pay impossible indemnities to the allied nations and chaos resulted. Who waa responsible for financing Hitler? Obviously, a man cannot start a revolution with what is in his pocket.  Frit2  Thyssen, formerly one of Germany&#39;s leading industrialists, has made it quite clear where the money came from. Recently  I  read  a  report published in the United States of America relating to the state of German children after four years of blockade during the last war. It was a harrowing document. When the German people asked the French Premier, Clemenceau, to lift the indemnities imposed upon Germany by the Treaty of Versailles, he said, in effect, &#34;No, we have you where we want you, and we shall keep you there &#34;, but, obviously, it was impossible to keep a strong nation such as Germany in a state of repression, and a revolutionary movement such as we have seen was inevitable. Hitler rehabilitated the German people by putting them back to work. I am not an admirer of the Fuhrer, but I know well what brought him into prominence. </para>
          <para>Much has ,been said about the Atlantic Charter, which it was hoped would be the basis of international goodwill after the war. Unfortunately, at the dictate of Wall-street the charter now includes  a  provision that after the war the allied nations will return to the gold standard. That will mean that the dollar will be the standard value of the future world, and gold will be the mark of a nation&#39;s prosperity. Every one knows that in the United States of America thousands of tons of .gold have been placed for safety in the vaults at Fort Knox - it has been taken out of one hole in the ground and put in another - and if the allied nations revert to the gold standard after the war  a  vast proportion of the world&#39;s purchasing power will be in the hands of the people of the United States of America. Even now that country is seeking to obtain permanent possession of certain naval bases in return for its lend-lease aid. </para>
          <para>The arguments that have been advanced by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride</inline> in criticism of the Government&#39;s financial policy are obviously unsound. The Government has to get this money, and I believe that it will get it simply by asking the people for it. The private banks can no longer buy war bonds, nor can they use dummies for that purpose, and the issuing of treasury-&#39;bills is safe in the hands of the Commonwealth Bank, which has the credit of the nation behind it. </para>
          <para>I again express regret that <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride</inline> did not remain in the chamber to hear my reply to his criticism. </para>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>988</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KQL</name.id>
              <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LATHAM, Charles</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LATHAM</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. -  I agree, of course, that the Government must have money to carry on the war, and for that reason consideration must be given to measures such as this. There is no short-cut to the raising of money such as that suggested by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Darcey.</inline></para>
          </talk.start>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>988</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JTR</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">DARCEY, Richard</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Darcey</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  I did not mention money; I was speaking of credit. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>988</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KQL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">LATHAM, Charles</name>
                <name role="display">Senator LATHAM</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- If there were  a  short-cut, other governments would have taken it long ago. The point that concerns me mainly is whether or not we are obtaining a full return for the money that we are borrowing and spending on the war effort. I am entirely opposed to the introduction of new ideas of finance at such a critical time in our history. I ask the Government to give serious consideration to the matter from that aspect. It is true that the people have more money to spend now than they have ever had before. The national income last year was over &#163;1,000,000,000, and the deposits in the savings banks have increased considerably. I cannot understand why people are not lending money directly to the Government to a greater degree than they are by purchasing war  savings certificates and national security bonds. These are a far better investment than the. loans which are being submitted to the public to-day. The easiest way to create confidence in the minds of the people is to assure them that the money being borrowed from them is being wisely expended. Of course, in all big Government undertakings such as the waging of war, unwise expenditure is likely to occur. The Government should appoint officers for the purpose of ascertaining whether unnecessary expenditure is taking place. It is generally agreed that we must spend a great deal of money in building up our war organization, but some of that expenditure will not constantly recur. For instance, the uniform of a soldier has not to be renewed every day. It is true that aircraft and munitions have to be replaced and that substantial reserves must be provided. A long time will elapse before we can say that we have sufficient aircraft, because, in addition to increasing our reserve supply, the wastage has to be made up. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>989</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>L8E</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">CAMERON, Donald</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Cameron</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- All war expenditure is wasteful. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>989</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KQL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">LATHAM, Charles</name>
                <name role="display">Senator LATHAM</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Of course, but we are increasing the strength of our forces and our supply of equipment. Although war necessarily involves wasteful expenditure we have on the other side of the scale the preservation of the  nation,  which &#39;is very important. Id order to give confidence to the people we should ensure that we are not expending their money unwisely. Members of Parliament have declared that they have noticed much extravagant expenditure. I should like officers to be appointed by the Treasurer to investigate the truth of that charge. I am aware that a Joint Committee on War Expenditure has been appointed, but has it sufficient time to traverse the country in order to check up on all war expenditure? If officers were appointed to go here and there without having to announce their coming, a large sum of money would probably be saved, and the people would have confidence that expenditure was being watched as carefully as possible. The charge is repeatedly made that officers of the various services are continually using motor cars for shopping. If that is done on a large scale the expenditure thus involved should be curtailed. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>989</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KQH</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">LARGE, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Large</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Is it worth while mentioning the matter if it occurs only on a small scale? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>989</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KQL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">LATHAM, Charles</name>
                <name role="display">Senator LATHAM</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- The practice may grow until the unnecessary expenditure becomes substantial. Small sums make a large amount in the aggregate. I have seen officers driven by young women and I have asked myself why they do not take the wheel themselves because I know quite well that they can drive a motor car. I should like an assurance from the Government that every possible check is being made with regard to expenditure. I shall offer no opposition to the authorization of expenditure, provided the money is required for the war effort. The Opposition does not desire to prevent the Government from doing what is necessary, but it has the right to point out that it suspects that wasteful expenditure occurs. There is likely to be a great deal of unnecessary expenditure and every possible effort should be made to prevent it. Officials are handling large sums of money to-day, and have probably never handled such large amounts previously. I read in the press of an officer who was able to appropriate &#163;28,000 from a military camp. Had a complete audit system been in operation he could not have got away with such a large sum. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>989</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KKR</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Fraser</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Money is embezzled from banks despite complete audits. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>989</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KQL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">LATHAM, Charles</name>
                <name role="display">Senator LATHAM</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- That is so. During the last war large sums of money disappeared and were never accounted for. I am anxious that the Government shall be successful in the flotation of the loan. The public have money in their possession, which could be invested, and all that is necessary for the success of the loan is that they should have confidence in the Government and know that the money lent will be wisely spent. Of course, if the people do not invest their money other measures will have to he taken to raise the funds needed. I am in favour of voluntary loans, and in orde&#93; to make it easy to raise the money required I urge the Government to watch expenditure carefully and see that no waste occurs. Then I shall have no hesitation in advising the people to subscribe fully. I hope that it is not true that  notices were posted in the trenches asking our soldiers to subscribe to the Austerity Loan. The people in Australia should be able to find the necessary cash to carry on the war. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>990</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
              <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>.- The short speech  which  the Minister delivered in introducing the bill contains statements which are entirely inconsistent with one another. In the first portion of his speech he told us that it is proposed to finance &#163;390,000,000 from loans. Now the position is that so far this financial year we have raised by way of loan in the true sense the sum of about &#163;S0,000,000j and the present bill authorizes the raising of another &#163;100,000,000. At the end of the speech the Minister said it was expected that the bill would provide sufficient funds to cover the loan expenditure to the end of the current financial year. Although &#163;390.000.000 is to be financed by loan, that will be met by raising only &#163;180,000,000 by way of loan. This proposal must come as a great disappointment to any one who read the speech of the Treasurer when he presented his budget last September. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>990</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JQY</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">COURTICE, Benjamin</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Courtice</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  There has been a large increase of expenditure since then. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>990</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Let us disregard that increase for the moment. The Treasurer now indicates clearly that he does not propose to attempt to do the things which in September of last year he said  that  he would do. He is not going to provide by means of loan the amount which in his budget statement he said would be provided, notwithstanding that he now admits that expenditure will be increased by &#163;90,000,000. We do not get out of the difficulty by saying that the expenditure  has  increased. On the contrary, an increase of expenditure by &#163;90,000,000 is an added reason why the Treasurer should at least attempt to do  what  in September  last  he said he would do. At that time he was most emphatic ; he used some rather brave words; he expounded some principles to which no exception could be taken. I said so at the time. But what has he done since? In his budget statement the Treasurer drew attention to the great danger which would arise from the excess spending power which was circulating in the community; and, having done that, he said that the Government was determined that that extra spending power should find its way into government channels.  His  exact words were - </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <quote>
            <para>The Government is determined on this, and will take midi measures as may bc necessary to impose its will. </para>
          </quote>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>990</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  It has been doing so ever since. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>990</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I invite the Leader of the Senate to tell us of one thing that the Government has done to impose its will in order to bring about the transfer of the excess spending power to which the Treasurer referred last September. He cannot point to a single act on the part of the Government since September which has had the direct effect of transferring extra spending power from the public to the Government. I know that it is now proposed to increase taxation by &#163;40,000,000. But that is not for this year; it is for next year. That proposal is not in any way related to the deficiency which exists this year. The Government has indicated that it proposes to raise some of next year&#39;s revenue during the next three months, which means that it will be raised before the next financial year starts. That, however, is not a contribution to the problem.&#39; The Government cannot have it &#39;both ways : if it raises a portion of next year&#39;s revenue this year obviously it cannot raise that amount of revenue next year. The present proposals have no relation to this problem at all. The result is that, although the Treasurer is faced with a deficiency of over &#163;100,000,000 on his estimate of September last - and to that sum must be added another &#163;90,000,000 of new expenditure  - we  are calmly told that the Government does not propose to do anything about it, and will not even attempt to raise the sum which the Treasurer in September said would be raised. As the  Deputy  Leader of the Opposition <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator McBride)</inline> has pointed out, the clear indication of the Treasurer&#39;s statement in September was that the Government would raise &#163;240,000,000 by way of loan directly from the public, and &#163;60,000,000 by means  of  war savings certificates and war bonds; but the sole contribution to the completion of that programme  so  far is that &#163;80,000,000 has been raised, and the Treasurer is now asking the Parliament to authorize the raising of  &#163;100,000,000 for the rest of the financial year. No government of this country has ever put up such a sorry performance. Like <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride,</inline> I am very disturbed about it, because I do not believe that the community can escape from the liabilities that are being incurred. There is no escape for any member of the community, rich or poor, from some contribution towards the enormous expenditure which the war involves. We can act in one of two ways. First, we can proceed to transfer spending power from the civil population to the Government upon scientific lines. That means a system of taxation, or of compulsory loans, by which each person in the community will contribute according to his or her ability to pay. That would be an equitable system, but it is not popular with the Government. The Government has such a poor opinion of the Australian community that it believes that should this problem be tackled properly the community would vote it out of office. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>991</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Who told the honorable senator that? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>991</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- It is obvious. Thi. resistance by the Government to every suggestion that this matter should be dealt with upon a scientific basis is an indication that it regards the proposal as a politically unpopular one. I believe that the Government&#39;s assessment of the attitude of the Australian community to this matter is wrong. I believe that if the Australian people were approached in a proper way they would do as much, and do it as readily, as the people of New Zealand have done. The Government&#39;s attitude to this matter is an insult to the people of Australia. Instead of proceeding along those lines, the Government blandly goes on issuing treasury-bills. The amount is now &#163;250,000,000, and, at the present rate, it will approximate &#163;500,000,000 next year. The Government is leaving this problem for a future government to solve. The result is that a burden is being placed upon the community. That burden will be borne by all sections, but, to a very large degree, it will be borne by people who are least able to carry it. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>991</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- People with whom the honorable senator has never sympathized before. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>991</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- They have always had my sympathy. I know quite as much about those people as does the Leader of the Senate <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Collings)</inline> ; and probably a good deal more. 1 have a great deal of sympathy for people who, throughout their lives, instead of leaning on governments for assistance, decide like men that they will provide for themselves and their families by putting aside a little in a savings bank, or in life assurance policies, in the expectation that when they are unable to work they will be able to obtain a. little towards their upkeep from those sources. But this Government is not seriously concerned about those people. The result of its policy must be that the value of all savings will decline. There can be no escape from that fact. That is the result of the depreciation of money. No matter what the Government may do by way of regulation, or methods of control over spending, I agree with <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride</inline> that we must ultimately reach the stage when excess spending power will cause a tremendous depreciation in the value of money. The cost of living ha? increased by 22 per cent, since the war commenced. Since this Government has been in office it has increased at double the rate at which it increased during the regime of previous governments. It is useless to tell the people that this increase is due to the fact that our war effort is expanding. The Government fails to realize that, in order to maintain economic equilibrium, an increasing war effort must be accompanied by a tremendous increase of taxes, or by increased subscriptions to loans. Merely to say that the war effort has increased does not answer this problem at all. On that basis we would not have any increase of taxes despite an increased war effort. My whole complaint is that notwithstanding the fact that there has been a big increase of our war effort, there has not been any substantial contribution made by the Government towards the solution of the problem of transferring excess spending power in the community to the Government. I also regard another aspect of this matter in a very serious light. As <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride</inline> pointed out, the Government can, while the war last, impose certain brakes on public spending. However, I do not believe that that policy&#39; is altogether effective. When the Government simply restricts purchases of certain commodities more money is diverted into other channels. Unless the Government is prepared to impose controls in respect of the purchase of all commodities, that method will not be really effective. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>992</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K0W</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">ASHLEY, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Ashley</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Does the honorable senator suggest that that should be done? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>992</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- No. We must tackle this problem at its root, and the proper way to do so is to take away the excess spending power now. So long as excess spending power is left in the hands of the community, we shall encourage black marketing and other evils which no government can overcome. The longer such a condition of affairs is permitted, the more difficult the situation will become. However, if we deal with this matter at its source we shall deprive the citizen, for the time being. of some proportion of his spending power which is creating those difficulties. Up to a point, the Government can impose some controls while the war lasts; but even if that system were successful, what will happen when the war is over? Will the Leader of the Senate and his political colleagues then tell the people that they are not to spend their savings, because if they do they will cause tremendous inflation? Will the community respond to a call like that after the war ? I doubt it very much. For that reason, I wish to see this problem dealt with now. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>992</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JQY</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">COURTICE, Benjamin</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Courtice</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- The honorable senator does not  believe  in post-war savings ? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>992</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I do, and I wish that the Government believed in them. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>992</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>JQY</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">COURTICE, Benjamin</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Courtice</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Does not the honorable senator wish the citizens to spend those savings after the war? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>992</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Yes; but that is quite a different matter. If we take away a proportion of excess spending power now, we can release it after the war. As men are freed from the armed services, that money can be spent. But, to-day, the Government is not taking away any proportion of excess spending power, and, somewhere, that excess spending power will find its outlet. So long as this policy is continued, we shall be faced with a rising cost of living, and other evils that arise from an inflationary policy. The raising of this money conforms with the policy which I advocate. My complaint is that not sufficient is to be raised. I believe that more should be done. Indeed, more should have been done in the past. We should not be in our present position had this Government been prepared to tackle this problem immediately it assumed office. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>992</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>L8E</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">CAMERON, Donald</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Cameron</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Does the honorable senator favour a capital levy? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>992</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- -That depends on circumstances; but I am not concerned about the tags which some honorable senators put on these things. I do not know what <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Cameron</inline> means by a capital levy; and I doubt whether he knows himself. He assumes that if the Government raises money from the community and calls it a capital levy, it is going to come out of capital. It cannot come out of capital. Whether it is called a capital levy, or a compulsory loan, it will come out of current income. To-day, ordinary income tax is a capital levy for many people. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>992</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">BROWN, Gordon</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Brown</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Does the honorable senator favour fixing a ceiling to incomes ? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>992</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- No, I do not, because I believe that it would be a deterrent to efficiency; but I am, and always have been, in favour of a graduated income tax which imposes the heaviest burdens on those who are best able to pay. We have gone a long way in that direction when we have reached the stage of taking 18s. 6d. in the fi. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>992</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KKR</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Fraser</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- There is still more left to those who pay that amount than there is to the man on the basic wage. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>992</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- That depends upon the responsibilities and obligations of the particular person concerned. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>992</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KKR</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Fraser</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Every man has certain responsibilities. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>992</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- That may be true; but many people without any responsibility in the community are at present contributing very little. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>993</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  The honorable senator cannot be the judge of that, because he does not know their circumstances. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>993</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- It is not at all difficult to see in this community hundreds of thousands of single people who make a very small contribution to the war effort in the form of taxation. All those who have incomes of under &#163;8  a  week are not married men with children. Thousands of them are single, with no obligations; but the heaviest tax which this Government will impose on persons of that class is one which starts at &#163;100 at 6d. in the &#163;1, whereas the Government of New Zealand starts at 2s. 6d. in the &#163;1. That is a very sorry contribution by the Government to the programme which it set out in September. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>993</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">MCBRIDE, Philip</name>
                <name role="display">Senator McBride</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  An abject effort! </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>993</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Very ; but I had no real confidence in the Government&#39;s announcement in September, as I think I said at the time. In the result, it is clear that all our doubts about the policy of September have been completely justified. My concern now is that the community should understand what is taking place, and realize that the Government is, in fact, entirely failing to face up to the financial position. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>993</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KQH</name.id>
              <electorate />
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LARGE, William</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LARGE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>-  The honorable senator wants compulsory loans, does he not? </para>
          </talk.start>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>993</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I admit the soft implication. I was always in favour of compulsory loans, but I am not in favour of a compulsory grab. The party which in October, 1941, was opposed to a scientific and equitable system of com.pulsorv loans proposes now to refuse to pay back to the taxpayers excess income tax which they have paid. In other words, if one man has fortuitously paid more tax than he is bound to pay, and another in a precisely similar position has paid the correct amount, the Government, which is opposed to compulsory loans, says to the man who has paid too much, &#34; We are going to retain what you have paid, and compel you to lend that money to the Government, and give you 2 per cent, on it &#34;. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>993</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  Does not that sound something like a compulsory loan? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>993</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I quite agree. I am interested to see that the Government, which was opposed to the whole principle of compulsory loans, and defeated the previous Government on that issue, has now adopted compulsory loans as  a  policy. The difference is that in one case the compulsory loan was measured by capacity to pay, whereas the one which the Government now proposes to insist upon has no relation whatever to such capacity. It will apply only to wage-earners, because they are the only people from whom deductions are made, and then only to those who happen to pay in the course of the year more than the amount of tax for which they are to be assessed. The Leader of the Senate <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Collings)</inline> must know that that is purely an accident. A man may have had his salary so increased as to reach  a  figure which exactly fits in with the income tax deduction, or he may be ill for a week or two, and so may pay too much tax. The small refund which he ought to get might be a great help in paying the doctor&#39;s bill, but this callous Government says that it is going to grab it. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>993</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  The Government has not used the word &#34; grab &#34; in any of its acts. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>993</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- The Government is much more likely to use language which suggests that, when doing this sort of thing to taxpayers, it is really giving them something. Whatever language the Government uses, this is a grab. I have no doubt that the wage-earners upon whom it is imposed will regard it as such, and find it very difficult to understand how a Government which, in principle, was opposed to compulsory loans, could itself introduce them on such a perfectly ridiculous and unscientific basis. This is some indication of the bankruptcy of the Government&#39;s financial policy. Instead of really tackling this immediate problem, the Government, in this month of February, 1943, brings down a financial statement in which the first reference is not to the war, but to a national welfare scheme. The war does not take the forefront in the Treasurer&#39;s financial statement. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>993</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  What about this bill? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>993</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- What I am saying is very relevant to the bill. It is concerned with raising money to meet </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para class="block">Government expenditure which, during this and next year, will include extravagant, wasteful schemes for so-called social improvement. The Treasurer, as appears from this financial statement, is far more concerned with that policy, which is supposed to be popular in the electorates, than with the problems of winning the war. </para>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>994</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KQH</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">LARGE, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator LARGE</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  Would it be unpopular with the honorable senator? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>994</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Some of it will be very unpopular with me. I find it difficult to understand a Government which is falling short of its expenditure to the tune of something like  &#163;300,000,000,  saying, &#34;This is the time when we propose to remove the &#39; means &#39; test for maternity allowances, and to hand out to every body, rich and poor alike, more money in order to meet expenditure which many of them are quite able to meet themselves, although there has been no demand for it in the community &#34;. All that indicates that there is no desire on the part of the Government to face up to the financial issues involved in this problem to-day. If the Government were willing to face up &#39;to those issues, it would have my support and, I am sure, that of every honorable senator on this side of the chamber. In the circumstances, I consider that it is the duty of the Opposition to tell the people generally what, is taking place, and f shall do that as often as I can in order that the community may realize that the entire problem is being left for some future government to solve. That is an unsound policy. I trust that the proposed loan will be completely successful, because, at least, it is a contribution towards a solution of the problem; but it goes only a small part of the way, and even at this stage I should like to see the Government take its courage in its hands and proceed to introduce other measures which would achieve the result that the Treasurer said in September of last year would be achieved. I support the bill. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
          <para>Bill read a second time, and reported from committee without amendment or debate; report adopted. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Third Reading</title>
          <page.no>994</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>994</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKR</name.id>
              <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role>Minister for External Territories</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator FRASER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. -  I move - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para class="block">That the bill be now read a third time. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">The remarks made by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride</inline> upon the second reading of this measure are to be deprecated in view of his assurance that he would support the measure. Apparently, the difference between his support of the bill and his criticism of it lies in the word &#34; inflation &#34;, which he used in almost every sentence. Such talk is not likely to win the confidence of investors. In reply to the honorable senator&#39;s criticisms, I shall quote to the Senate some figures showing what this Government has done during its seventeen months in office in regard to increased taxation. During that period, taxation measures have been introduced on five separate occasions. In October,  1941,  the Government brought down its first budget, providing for increased taxation amounting to  &#163;27,000,000;  in December,  1941,  a supplementary war taxation measure providing for a further  &#163;25,000,000  was introduced ; in May,  1942,  additional sales tax calculated to yield  &#163;6,000,000  per annum was imposed ; in September,  1942,  the second budget was introduced, involving additional taxation amounting to  &#163;17,000,000;  and now a further taxation measure involving an additional  &#163;40,000,000  has been introduced into the House of Representatives, making a total of  &#163;115,000,000.  In  1940-41,  revenue derived from taxation amounted to  &#163;125,000,000,  whereas in the current financial year, including the new proposals, the yield from taxation will be  &#163;265,000,000,  excluding income taxes on behalf of the States. In short, taxation has been more than doubled by this Administration. Income tax assessed on individuals for Commonwealth purposes in  1940-41  amounted to  &#163;30,000,000,  whereas, with the proposals now being considered, the estimated revenue for a full financial year is now  &#163;110,000,000.  In  1940-41,  &#39;with the help &#39; of the banks, the Fadden Government raised  &#163;64,000,000  by way of public loans. I emphasize the words &#34; with the help of  the banks &#34; because there can be no disputing the fact that, had it not been for the prompt action taken by this Government to control private banks, there would have been built up in this country a vast superstructure of credit which  could  have been used: (by the private banks. In the financial year 1941-42, without the help of the banks, this Government raised &#163;120,000,000. It is not possible to say at this stage what the final total will be for the current year, but already &#163;S3,000,000 has been raised._ <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride</inline> mentioned a figure of &#163;250,000,000 in relation to treasury-bills, and said that that represented an expansion of credit.  Both statements are an exaggeration and are to be deprecated. He was endeavouring to show that there was an inflationary tendency, and that is not correct. The size of the treasury-bill issue does not measure inflationary forces. In his recent financial statement, the Treasurer remarked - </para>
          <quote>
            <para>The significance of the treasury-bill issue may be exaggerated unless the effect of the Government&#39;s control of banking is fully understood. Trading banks have not been allowed to subscribe to war loans, and their excess investible funds have been immobilized. If the previous practice of allowing &#34;banks to subscribe to war loans had been followed, which is also the practice of most other countries, we might well have had something like &#163;100,000,000 of loans from the banks in place of a like amount of the present treasury-bill issue. A considerable part of the banking loans would have represented genuine savings by the public or banking funds set free by the restriction of civil industry. Obviously, this part of the loans would not have been inflationary. It follows that the corresponding amount of treasurybills which have taken their place are also not inflationary. The volume of treasury-bills cannot therefore be taken as measuring inflationary forces. </para>
          </quote>
          <para>Statements have been made about extravagant war expenditure. I assure <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Latham</inline> that all possible steps have been taken by the Government to prevent wasteful expenditure. The previous Government appointed a Business Board of Administration under <inline font-weight="bold">Sir George</inline> Pearce, and its appointment was re-affirmed by the present Government. That body has done good work. I remind honorable senators of the difficulties that have confronted the present Administration as compared with those which faced its predecessors. Frequently, this Government has had to make momentous decisions within 24 hours in order to carry out important projects for the safety of this country. Sio doubt, inaccurate estimates have been made, and had sufficient time been available for the formulation of complete estimates, savings could probably have been effected. It should be remembered that inquiries are made from time to time by the Joint Committee on War Expenditure, which represents both branches of the legislature and all political parties. Have honorable senators read the reports which have been submitted to the Parliament by that committee? With the assistance of my personal staff, I took action last year with regard to railway freights that has saved Australia at least &#163;1,000,000. I assure honorable senators on both sides of the chamber that the Government will continue to do everything possible to prevent wasteful expenditure. I was surprised to hear <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride</inline> say that he distrusted the financial advisers of the Government, seeing that the advice tendered by them is identical with that given to previous administrations. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>995</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Spicer</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Has the Government taken the advice of its financial advisers? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>995</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KKR</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
                <name role="display">Senator FRASER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Not on all occasions. I was rather curious to know what <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Spicer</inline> meant -by his reference to the restriction of expenditure. Would that affect a rich man who, after paying tax to the amount of 18s. 6d. in the &#163;1, still had an income of &#163;3,000 or &#163;4,000 a year? I regret the attitude adopted by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride,</inline> because ho knows that bank credit is extensively used in Great Britain, and. that the Government with which he was associated adopted a similar financial policy in budgeting for a far smaller revenue than that required by the present Ministry. There is a difference between the policy of the Government and that of the Opposition only as to the degree to which bank credit should he availed of, and as to whether compulsory loans should be introduced. During the last eight months of the last financial year, war expenditure in Great Britain amounted to about &#163;13,000,000 or &#163;14,000,000 a day. The British Government increased the note issue to &#163;50,000,000 in one month, and it is using bank credit extensively.  I  give an undertaking that a careful analysis will be made of governmental expenditure in order to prevent waste.  I  am surprised to bear that, according to some honorable senators opposite, there will be no residual value as a result of some of the war expenditure that has been incurred. The Government will be grateful for the assistance of the Opposition in authorizing the proposed loan. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>996</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KR9</name.id>
              <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LECKIE, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LECKIE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>.- It is regrettable that the Minister was not ready to reply to the second-reading debate, and that he floundered when delivering his third-reading speech. When a loan of this kind is being floated the people wish to be sure that the money will be expended carefully and well so that the utmost value will be obtained for it. They also want to know whether they will get their money back and, if so, whether it will have the same value as when they parted with it. Those points have been stressed by honorable senators on this side; indeed, it has been the burden of their speeches. The Minister said that the Government which preceded the present Government raised only &#163;64,000,000 by way of public loans. That may be so; but the explanation is that that was all the money that was needed at the time. Now that expenditure has increased it illbecomes the Minister to twit previous governments with not having raised some hundreds of millions of pounds. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>996</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  The Deputy Leader of the Opposition said that the present Government had not done anything. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>996</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KOL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">MCBRIDE, Philip</name>
                <name role="display">Senator McBride</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  I said that the present Government had not done anything to bridge the gap, and I repeat that statement now. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>996</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KR9</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">LECKIE, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator LECKIE</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-As <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McBride</inline> pointed out, the Government proposed to raise &#163;240,000,000 to cover the expenditure which appeared in the budget. Since then an additional &#163;100,000,000 has been expended, so that the amount to he raised under this bill will merely meet that additional amount. We fear that the money will not be spent wisely, and that when it is repaid it will not have its present value. I agree with the  Deputy  Leader of the Opposition that the necessity to raise an additional &#163;100,000,000 is due largely to the administration of the present Government; had it acted properly in the first instance, much of that expenditure would not have been necessary. In other words, the works which are being undertaken are costing more for each man-hour than when the previous Government was in office. If the Government wishes to convince the people that the money will be expended wisely it will have totake drastic action. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
          <para>Bill read a third time. </para>
          <para>
            <inline font-style="italic">Sitting suspended from</inline>5.45 <inline font-style="italic">to</inline> 9.15 <inline font-style="italic">p.m.</inline></para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>REGULATIONS AND ORDINANCES COMMITTEE</title>
        <page.no>996</page.no>
        <type>miscellaneous</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Fifth Report</title>
          <page.no>996</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>996</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
              <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>.- I move - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>That the Fifth Report of the Standing Committee on Regulations and Ordinances, presented to the Senate on the 17th September, 1942, be adopted. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">This is the fifth report of the Standing Committee on Regulations and Ordinances, and the first which I have had the honour to present since I have been  chairman  of the committee. I think that it is also the first report presented by the committee since the outbreak of the war. The report contains two recommendations about which, I should think, there will be very little debate. It might be convenient, therefore, to dispose of those two recommendations immediately. </para>
          <para>The committee suggests that the rule applying to ordinances which are made under the Norfolk Island Act, which, at present, can be disallowed 30 days after they are laid on the table, should be brought in conformity with the rule which applies to all other regulations and ordinances, namely, that they may be disallowed within fifteen sitting days. It seems an anomaly that ordinances made under the Norfolk Island Act should have applicable to them a special rule whereby the motion for disallowance can be moved within 30 days - not 30 sitting days - after they are laid on the  table, whereas all other ordinances and regulations may be disallowed in fifteen sitting days. The report of the committee suggests that ordinances made under the Norfolk Island Act should be subject to the same rule as applies to all other regulations. </para>
          <para>The second matter, about which I do not think there will be much dispute, is a recommendation that the committee should be empowered to consider regulations when they are published in the <inline font-style="italic">Gazette.</inline> At present, under the Standing Orders, the committee is competent to deal with regulations only after they have been laid on the table. There have been occasions when the period of time between the publication of a regulation in the <inline font-style="italic">Gazette</inline> and the date upon which it has been laid on the table has been fairly considerable. I am glad to say that, recently, there has been a considerable improvement in that regard; but the committee feels that, in order to be enabled to deal with regulations as speedily as possible, it should be empowered to consider them as soon as they are published in the <inline font-style="italic">Gazette.</inline></para>
          <para>That brings me to a further recommendation, which relates more particularly to regulations made under the National Security Act. In regard to regulations made under that act, the committee has been faced with an extremely difficult task ever since I have been a member of it. The difficulty has arisen, first, because of the tremendous number of regulations and orders which are published from time to time under the very wide powers conferred upon the Government under the National Security Act. The report shows the number of regulations and orders which the committee has had to consider in the course of twelve months. Those figures relate to the year 1942 up to the time when the report was published, namely, the 17th September last; but I have since obtained the final figures for 1942. They indicate the very wide field which subordinate legislation under the National Security Act covers. Statutory rules made during 1942 under all acts, including the National Security Act, number 557. They are statutory rules only. As honorable senators know, power is given under the statutory rules to various Ministers to make orders, and many of those orders are as important from the point of view of the administration of the law as the statutory rules themselves. The total number of orders laid on the table during 1942 was 7,714. That total includes certain orders which may have been made in 1941, but were not laid, on the table until 1942. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>997</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Many of those orders were purely machinery in character. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>997</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Yes. I am not saying that all of them were of great importance. As the Leader of the Senate <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Collings)</inline> suggests, many of them were purely machinery provisions. Some were orders which applied to a particular individual only, for example, orders for the acquisition of land for defence purposes. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>997</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KUA</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">MCLEAY, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator McLeay</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Did not one of the orders apply to domestic servants? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>997</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Yes. The whole of the rules in relation to the fixation of prices have been .promulgated in the form of orders as distinct from regulations. The principles which the Prices Commissioner applies are to be found in orders and not in regulations; and a good deal of the provisions in relation to rationing and many other activities are to be found in orders as distinct from regulations. So, although it was not necessary for the committee to have regard to every one of those 7,714 orders, nevertheless, in order to do its work properly it would be necessary for the committee to go through all of them and pick out those which were of general application. With regard to the regulations and orders issued under the National Security Act, the committee has, all the time, been faced with very great difficulty not only from the point of view of the number of orders it has had to consider, but also with respect to the character of the committee and the functions it was appointed to perform. This standing committee was not, so I understand, appointed for the purpose of dealing with questions of policy; and it has always taken the view that it was not its function to look at regulations from the point of view of their practical application. What the committee was originally appointed for was to assist the Senate in guarding against abuse of the regulation-making power. In peace-time, of course, that could be done, having regard to certain principles, which, in fact, the committee laid down. The committee laid down four principles to guide its actions, and it set those out in this way: It said, first, that regulations must be in accordance with the statutes under which they are made. In respect of only a few of the national security regulations, could it be said positively, in the absence of a court decision, that they are not authorized by the National Security Act. In other words, the powers conferred upon the Government under that act are so wide that it is only the exceptional case in respect of which it is possible to say that a regulation is clearly beyond the power of the Government. So, in dealing with national security regulations there is not much to consider from the point of view of the application of that principle. Each regulation more or less determines the question for itself, having regard to the very wide powers which the Government possesses. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>The next principle was this : The regulations should not trespass unduly on personal rights and liberties. That is a very good principle to be applied to the regulation-making power in peacetime; but when Parliament has passed an act empowering the Government to do practically anything for the purpose of carrying on the war, it becomes a rather useless pursuit to go through thousands of regulations and orders for the purpose of seeing whether they trespass unduly on personal rights and liberties. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>998</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- That aspect would have already been looked at; the regulations are prepared by the AttorneyGeneral&#39;s Department. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>998</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- But the purpose of a committee of this kind is to guard the public against, perhaps, an overenthusiastic Public Service. I am not now reflecting on public servants in any way; but that seems to be a proper duty to ask a committee of this kind to perform. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>998</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K7P</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Collings</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- None of those regulations originated with public servants. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>998</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- That is a matter of opinion; but my point is that so far as national security regulations are concerned, it is a pointless undertaking for the committee to. go through thousands of them in order to determine whether they trespass on personal rights and liberties when Parliament has accepted regulations like the famous Statutory Rule No. 77, which prescribes that a Minister could require a person to do anything. It is pointless for the committee to go through the other regulations in order to see if there is some undue interference with personal liberties. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>The third principle which the committee adopted, before I became chairman of it, was that the regulations should not unduly make the rights and liberties of citizens dependent upon administrative rather than upon judicial decisions. That also is a precept which, I believe, is very valuable in peace-time, but which it becomes extremely difficult to adhere to and apply in time of war. It has become necessary to vest in all sorts of extra-judicial bodies powers to reach decisions - and to reach final decisions - which in many cases cannot bequestioned in the courts. </para>
          <para>The last principle was that the regulations should be concerned with administrative detail and should not amount to substantive legislation, which is moreproperly a matter for parliamentaryenactment. All of us will agree that that is a perfectly sound principle forpeacetime; but it becomes a quite useless undertaking for a committee to consider regulations on that basis in wartime when Parliament itself has handed over to the Executive power to makeregulations with respect to any matterconnected with the prosecution of the war. </para>
          <para>I have expressed those views in relation to these principles and their application in war-time in order toillustrate the position in which the committee began to find itself. It was faced with the extremely difficult task of goingthrough hundreds of regulations and thousands of orders, and looking at them from the point of view of these testswhich had become inapplicable to thecircumstances in which the regulations; were being made. The real issue which arises in regard to national security regulations is, invariably, one of policy. Should these regulations have been made? And the principle upon which the committee acted in the past, and to which the present committee continues to adhere, until it receives instructions from the Senate to do otherwise, is that it is not concerned with questions of policy, but with the application of the principles to which I have referred. So ultimately we reached the stage of feeling that the work of proceeding to consider national security regulations in the light of those principles was, in wartime, a waste of time, and that it was desirable to acquaint the Senate of that fact, so that the Senate, if it saw fit to do so, might request the committee to deal with the regulations from the point of view of policy, or take other steps to see that it was properly advised from time to time in relation to matters of policy which arose under them. We made &#187;. recommendation, which perhaps might he more properly called a suggestion, that in existing circumstances it would br- useful to have a committee which had regard to the regulations from the point of view of policy, and it is left open in the report whether it should be a committee of the Senate or a joint committee of both Houses. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>999</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KUA</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">MCLEAY, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator McLeay</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Does that mean that Labour members would have to disagree with Australian Labour party policy ? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>999</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- I do not know whether it might have that result or not, but, from the point of view of the cOm.u,it,tee which places this report before the Senate, our conception was that, having regard to the great volume of this legislation that is going through, there would he some value in having in existence a committee whose functions would be not to have a look at the regulations from the point of view of the principles to which I have been referring but to consider them as a mere matter of policy - that, is, whether certain regulations should, be put into operation for the further prosecution of the war or not - and to make recommendations to the Senate in relation to them. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>999</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KAY</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">GIBSON, William</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Gibson</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- Is not that a function of the Government? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>999</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- It is not merely a matter of government responsibility in this case, for it seems to me that members have a responsibility to the public to see that matters which are dealt with in regulations are properly so dealt with, and that matters shall not find their way into the regulations which probably could be better dealt with oy statute, or better left alone altogether. There would be some advantage in such a committee also in those cases where the complaint against particular regulations is. that they do not deal with the matter in the most appropriate way, and the objection is not to the fact that the matter is being regulated, but rather to the way in which it is being done. In the case, for example, of a motion for disallowance, we have no power to amend the regulations which are being attacked The only remedy which is presented on such a motion is their complete disallowance. In those cases where the complaint is against the. detail of the regulations rather than against their main purpose, it would be possible to refer such a motion to the committee for consideration in order to determine whether the regulations as proposed, hy the Government should be amended or not. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
          <para>In the report we urge more frequent publication of the manual, of security legislation. I have previously referred to the fact that the general public finds great difficulty in ascertaining exactly the provisions of the regulations which may govern an industry, or even some of its domestic activities. Even for a lawyer who is accustomed to find his way through these things, I can assure the Senate that it is at times a most difficult task. The virtue of the manual is that when it is published the regulations are published in a consolidated form, so that all the amendments are included in the printed copy which appears in the manual. The first manual was published in April, 1941, and the second in, I think, August, 1942. After it is published if one wants to be sure that h-e has the right regulations he must, of course, go through all the statutory rule.? that have been passed since August. 1942. </para>
          <para>Only in that way can he be certain that what is in the manual has not been amended. In some cases, as I say, that is a difficult task. We suggest that the manual should be published as frequently as possible, and that once a year is not enough. I know that there are man-power difficulties, which probably constitute one of the obstacles in the way of more frequent publication. </para>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1000</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KQL</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">LATHAM, Charles</name>
                <name role="display">Senator Latham</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  That would be offset by the saving of the time of private people. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
          <continue>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1000</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>K6Z</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">SPICER, John</name>
                <name role="display">Senator SPICER</name>
              </talker>
              <para>- That is true. Many, people are affected by the regulations, and many man-hours are lost if it is necessary to wade through a whole lot of separate regulations in order to make perfectly sure that one is dealing with a problem on the right basis. That  must be offset to some extent against manpower used in printing such a publication. The committee recommends a more frequent publication of the manual, which is most useful. To my mind  it  still does not contain as many of the orders as it should. It is mainly confined to statutory rules, and, although some orders are published, there are many more of general application which should appear in it. Since the manual was published in August of last year a sort of index supplement has been published. That is not a publication of the statutory rules themselves. It is a little booklet which is attached to the manual and contains particulars of the amendments which have been made since the manual was published. The understanding was, I believe, that it should be published once every three months, but there again the suggestion that it should be published at more frequent intervals, at least once a month, is worthy of consideration, when regulations are being issued at the rapid rate which has obtained during the past twelve months. </para>
            </talk.start>
          </continue>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1000</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K7P</name.id>
              <electorate>QueenslandMinister for the Interior</electorate>
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
              <name role="display">Senator COLLINGS</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. -  I desire, on behalf of the Government, to congratulate the committee on the fine work which it has performed, and to thank it for the valuable suggestions which have resulted from its labours and which are contained in its report. Paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 call for no comment by me. With respect to paragraph 4, it will be necessary for a bill to amend .the Norfolk Island Act to be introduced, if effect is to be given to the committee&#39;s suggestion. The Government is prepared to introduce a bill for that purpose. It is recommended in paragraph 5 that a joint committee be appointed to consider the practical application of national security regulations. After the report has been adopted I propose to move a motion for the appointment of such a committee. The proposal that the manual of national security legislation should be published more frequently is approved by the Government, and the Attorney-General has already arranged for this to be done so far as is reasonably possible, and with due regard to the need to conserve paper. With regard to paragraph 7 of the report, relating to the time when the standing committee should be empowered to consider regulations and ordinances, I direct attention to the fact that instructions were given some months ago that all regulations be tabled in Parliament as soon as possible after being issued. Those instructions, which will be reiterated, will, if observed, make it possible for regulations to be dealt with by either House very shortly after they are issued. The Government therefore suggests that, in view of the functions of the proposed joint committee, where notice of motion for the disallowance of regulations  i3  given, the proposed motion should stand referred to the joint committee, and its consideration should be deferred until the report of the committee has been received in the House concerned. It will bo seen from that statement that the Government has given close and serious attention to the report and the various recommendations and suggestions made in it. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <interjection>
            <talk.start>
              <talker>
                <page.no>1000</page.no>
                <time.stamp />
                <name.id>KUA</name.id>
                <electorate />
                <party />
                <role />
                <in.gov>0</in.gov>
                <first.speech>0</first.speech>
                <name role="metadata">MCLEAY, George</name>
                <name role="display">Senator McLeay</name>
              </talker>
              <para>-  Would honorable senators on the Government side be bound by an Australian Labour party decision? </para>
            </talk.start>
          </interjection>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1000</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K7P</name.id>
              <electorate>QUEENSLAND</electorate>
              <party>FLP; ALP from 1937</party>
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">COLLINGS, Joseph</name>
              <name role="display">Senator COLLINGS</name>
            </talker>
            <para>- This is a subject into which we need not import &#34; smart Alec &#34; remarks of that kind. It relates purely to procedure which is for the benefit of every member who applies himself intelligently to what is going on. I take it, from the tone of <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Spicer&#39;s</inline> speech, which was highly commendable, that he has himself recognized  that in war-time things have to be done in a greater hurry and to a far greater extent by means of regulations, orders and declarations than would be considered advisable during peace-time. That accounts for the great volume, to which the honorable senator referred, of the regulations which have been issued. The Government greatly appreciates the work of the committee, and approves of its recommendations. Its labours are almost certainly more arduous than those of any other committee, because the consideration which has to be given to those highly complicated matters demands great concentration. We appreciate also the spirit in which the report of the committee has been framed, and particularly the spirit in which the mover of the motion couched what he had to say to-night. The matters to which I have given expression in my brief statement will all be attended to, and I think that little will remain to be debated. The Government will give effect to the suggestions which have been made, so far as is practicable. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>Debate (on motion by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McLeay)</inline> adjourned. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>CUSTOMS TARIFF VALIDATION BILL 1943</title>
        <page.no>1001</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Bill received from the House of Representatives. </para>
      <para>Standing and Sessional Orders suspended. </para>
      <para>Bill (on motion by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Fraser)</inline> read a first time. </para>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Second Reading</title>
          <page.no>1001</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1001</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKR</name.id>
              <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role>Minister for External Territories</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator FRASER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - I move - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para class="block">That the bill he now read a second time. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">The purpose of this bill is to validate up to and including the 2nd September, 1943, the collection of duties under Customs Tariff Proposals Nos. 7 and 8 of the 5 th March and the 2nd September, 1942, respectively. </para>
          <para>Undoubtedly honorable senators will realize that Parliament has been engaged on many matters directly and vitally affecting the prosecution of the war, and that the time has not been opportune for a debate of any length on these proposals. Unless the proposals are validated by the 2nd March, 1943, the authority to collect duty thereunder will lapse and the revenue is likely to be seriously affected. </para>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1001</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KUA</name.id>
              <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
              <party />
              <role>Leader of the Opposition</role>
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">MCLEAY, George</name>
              <name role="display">Senator McLEAY</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - This bill is one of five validating measures relating to tariff and excise schedules. I propose to treat these bills as formal measures, because I realize that the Government is anxious that they should be passed to-night. However, if any honorable senator on this side of the chamber wishes to speak on any matter within the scope of the bills, he is entitled to do so. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para>Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
          <para>Bill read a second time and passed through its remaining stages without requests or debate. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>CUSTOMS TARIFF (EXCHANGE ADJUSTMENT) VALIDATION BILL 1943</title>
        <page.no>1001</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Bill received from the House of Representatives. </para>
      <para>Standing and Sessional Orders suspended. </para>
      <para>Bill (on motion by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Fraser)</inline> read a first time. </para>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Second Reading</title>
          <page.no>1001</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1001</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKR</name.id>
              <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role>Minister for External Territories</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator FRASER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>.- I move- </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>That the bill be now read a second time. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">This bill is incidental to the Customs Tariff Validation Bill 1943 and proposes to validate until the 2nd September, 1943, the exchange adjustment alterations made by Customs Tariff (Exchange Adjustment) Proposals of the 5th March, 1942. </para>
          <para>Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
          <para>Bill read a second time and passed through its remaining stages without requests or debate. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>CUSTOMS TARIFF (SPECIAL WAR DUTY) VALIDATION BILL 1943</title>
        <page.no>1001</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para class="block">Bill received from the House of Representatives. </para>
      <para>Standing and Sessional Orders suspended. </para>
      <para>Bill (on motion by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Fraser)</inline> read a first time. </para>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Second Reading</title>
          <page.no>1002</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1002</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKR</name.id>
              <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role>Minister for External Territories</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator FRASER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - I move - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para class="block">That the bill be now read a second time. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">This bill is introduced for the purpose of validating until the 2nd September, 1943, the collection of the special war duty under the Customs Tariff (Special War Duty) Proposals of the 5th March, 1942. The special war duty was imposed for war-time revenue purposes. For reasons stated in connexion with the Customs Tariff Validation Bill 1943, time has not permitted the proposals to be debated, and validation of the collection of duty by the 2nd March, 1943, is necessary in order to protect the revenue. </para>
          <para>Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
          <para>Bill read a second time and passed through its remaining stages without requests or debate. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>CUSTOMS TARIFF (NEW ZEALAND PREFERENCE) VALIDATION BILL 1943</title>
        <page.no>1002</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para class="block">Bill received from the House of Representatives. </para>
      <para>Standing and Sessional Orders suspended. </para>
      <para>Bill (on motion by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Fraser)</inline> read a first time. </para>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Second Reading</title>
          <page.no>1002</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1002</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKR</name.id>
              <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role>Minister for External Territories</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator FRASER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>. - I move - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>That the bill be now read a second time. </para>
          </quote>
          <para>This bill seeks to validate until the 2nd September, 1943, the collection of duty under Customs Tariff (New Zealand Preference) Proposals No. 4 of the 5th March, 1942. </para>
        </speech>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1002</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KR9</name.id>
              <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">LECKIE, John</name>
              <name role="display">Senator LECKIE</name>
            </talker>
            <para>.- I have no wish to obstruct the validation of these proposals, but I point out that this practice of imposing customs and excise duties without first having them considered by Parliament, and continuing their operation by means of validating bills passed every six months, is rather dangerous, although I realize that it is a procedure that was followed by the Government of which I was a member. </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para class="block">It is not right that Parliament should be called upon continually to validate the collection of duties which never come up for discussion. If the Government has decided to impose certain duties they should be ratified finally. I mildly protest against the procedure that has been adopted. </para>
          <para>Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
          <para>Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without requests or debate. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>CUSTOMS TARIFF (CANADIAN PREFERENCE) VALIDATION BILL 1943</title>
        <page.no>1002</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Bill received from the House of Representatives. </para>
      <para>Standing and Sessional Orders suspended. </para>
      <para>Bill (on motion by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Fraser)</inline> read a first time. </para>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Second Reading</title>
          <page.no>1002</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1002</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKR</name.id>
              <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role>Minister forExternal Territories</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator FRASER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>.- I move- </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>That the bill be now read a second time. </para>
          </quote>
          <para>This measure provides for the validation of the collection of duty under Customs Tariff (Canadian Preference) Proposals of the 5th March, 1942. The period of validation is the same as for the other tariff proposals, namely, until the 2nd September, 1943. </para>
          <para class="block">Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
          <para class="block">Bill read a second time, and passed through its remaining stages without requests or debate. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>EXCISE TARIFF VALIDATION BILL 1943</title>
        <page.no>1002</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>Bill received from the House of Representatives. </para>
      <para>Stain ding and Sessional Orders suspended. </para>
      <para>Bill (on motion by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Fraser)</inline> read a first time. </para>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>Second Reading</title>
          <page.no>1002</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1002</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>KKR</name.id>
              <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
              <party>ALP</party>
              <role>Minister for External Territories</role>
              <in.gov>1</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">FRASER, James</name>
              <name role="display">Senator FRASER</name>
            </talker>
            <para>.   - I  move - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <para class="block">That the bill be now read a second time. </para>
          <para class="block">The object of the measure is to validate, until the 2nd September, 1943, the collection of excise duty under Excise Tariff Proposals, Nos. 5, 6, 7 and 8 of the 5th March, 1942, the 25th March, 1942, the 2nd September, 1942, and the 28th January, 1943, respectively. </para>
          <para>Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
          <para>Bill read a second time, and passed .through its remaining stages without requests or debate. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>COMMONWEALTH POWERS BILL</title>
        <page.no>1003</page.no>
        <type>bill</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <speech>
        <talk.start>
          <talker>
            <page.no>1003</page.no>
            <time.stamp />
            <name.id>K0W</name.id>
            <electorate />
            <party>ALP</party>
            <role />
            <in.gov>1</in.gov>
            <first.speech>0</first.speech>
            <name role="metadata">ASHLEY, William</name>
            <name role="display">Senator ASHLEY</name>
          </talker>
          <para>- In compliance with the request by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator McLeay</inline> and <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Collett</inline> on the 28th January, <inline font-style="italic">I</inline> lay on the table the following paper: - </para>
        </talk.start>
        <quote>
          <para>Commonwealth Towers Bill - Full text of all the opinions on the Commonwealth Powers Bill given by the legal advisers of the Commonwealth, together with copies of opinions given on the Bill by State legal  advisers  and other counsel. </para>
        </quote>
      </speech>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>ADJOURNMENT</title>
        <page.no>1003</page.no>
        <type>adjournment</type>
      </debateinfo>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTION</title>
        <page.no>1003</page.no>
        <type>Questions</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <subdebate.1>
        <subdebateinfo>
          <title>PRESS CENSORSHIP</title>
          <page.no>1003</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo>
        <para>Motion (by <inline font-weight="bold">Senator Collings)</inline> proposed - </para>
        <quote>
          <para>That the Senate do now adjourn. </para>
        </quote>
        <speech>
          <talk.start>
            <talker>
              <page.no>1003</page.no>
              <time.stamp />
              <name.id>K6P</name.id>
              <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
              <party />
              <role />
              <in.gov>0</in.gov>
              <first.speech>0</first.speech>
              <name role="metadata">BROWN, Gordon</name>
              <name role="display">Senator BROWN</name>
            </talker>
            <para>, - In reply to a question asked by me in this chamber, I have been informed by the Leader of the Senate <inline font-weight="bold">(Senator Collings)</inline> that the censor has a free hand and is not interfered with by the Government in any way. We all know that press censorship is necessary in wartime, but honorable senators should have an opportunity .to convey their opinions to the censor regarding matters in which they consider that he has gone too far. T. spoke in this chamber recently of the need to bring about the best possible feeling between Australians and our American allies. Part of the matter was published and steps were taken to remove the trouble, but the censor deleted the remainder. Personally I consider that nothing but good would result, if such remarks were published and steps were taken to remove any cause for friction between Australians and their great allies. To-day T received a letter from the secretary of the Queensland branch of the Australasian Meat Industry Employees Union complaining of the censorship. Six or eight months ago I spoke of the quality of the meat supplied to our soldiers, and an article published in the press at that time certainly called for a close investigation of the matter. The secretary of the union to which I have referred addressed the following letter, dated the 19th February, 1943, to the Prime Minister <inline font-weight="bold">(Mr. Curtin)</inline> : - </para>
          </talk.start>
          <quote>
            <para>The Queensland branch of this union publishes a small monthly journal, and amongst news for  members  appertaining to the union itself and the meat industry, we wish to indulge in the right to walch over and to criticize what some employers do as their contribution to -the war effort by way of the product from their plants which goes to feed the armed forces. 1 am attaching, an article which we wished to publish in the February issue of our journal, but its publication has &#34;been refused by the censor in  Brisbane. </para>
            <para>I am instructed by the union to protest to you, as we contend that such things as disclosed in this article, all of which and more can be verified up to Hie hilt, should be publicly ventilated, and as a result steps taken not only to stop such things but drastic action taken against those responsible for the supply of such stuff to our fighting forces. </para>
            <para>My union wants your authority to have (his article and any similar information published in the union&#39;s journal for March, and subsequent issues when necessary. </para>
          </quote>
          <para class="block">I shall not read the article referred to in the letter, but it deals with a matter of public interest, and steps should be taken to prevent a recurrence of the action taken by the censor. According to the members of the union who handle meat, rotten food is sent to the troops. If the article were published I see no reason to fear that we should be playing into the hands of the Japanese or the Germans. It is essential in the public interest that facts of this kind should be exposed. If there are employers who are so lacking in commercial decency that they supply our troops with rotten meat, they should be not only exposed, but also imprisoned. I see no reason why any censor should prevent the publication of matters of such public importance. I realize the need for censorship in war-time, but in the exercise of bis duties the censor should display intelligence. The morale of the men is affected when they find that information prepared for the newspapers is not allowed to be published. The men engaged in the meat industry desire to do their part in the war effort by safeguarding the health of the men fighting in New Guinea and elsewhere. That is why I have brought this matter forward. The publication of the information that has been censored would have a salutary effect on employers, as it would force them to do the proper thing by the soldiers. I am loath to say anything which may cause trouble, but as this matter affects the health of the men of the fighting services I regard it as my public duty to draw attention to what has occurred. On many occasions I have said that the people should be told the truth, because I believe that if they know the truth they will do the right thing. In my opinion, it is entirely wrong tohide things which should be made public. At times, we blame the newspapers for keeping the truth from the people thereby causing complacency - I have done so myself - but it may be that the fault lies with the censorship. If I have wrongly blamed the newspapers for suppressing the truth and keeping the people in ignorance, I apologize. I draw attention to this subject in the hope that matters which should be made public in the best interests of the people should not unnecessarily be censored. </para>
          <para>Motion - <inline font-style="italic">by leave</inline> - temporarily withdrawn. </para>
        </speech>
      </subdebate.1>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT</title>
        <page.no>1004</page.no>
        <type>special adjournment</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>
        <inline font-weight="bold">Senator COLLINGS</inline>(Queensland- </para>
      <para>Minister for the Interior) &#91;10.18&#93;. -I move - </para>
      <quote>
        <para>That the Senate, at its rising, adjourn to Tuesday, the 9th March, at 3 p.m. </para>
      </quote>
      <para class="block">I have been at some pains to ascertain the likely state of business for to-morrow and succeeding days, and I find that if we sit to-morrow or come back next week there will be little business to place before the Senate. By Tuesday week there will be a considerable volume to be dealt with, and I hope that when the Senate resumes honorable senators will come prepared to deal with that business expeditiously. </para>
      <para class="block">Question resolved in the affirmative. </para>
    </debate>
    <debate>
      <debateinfo>
        <title>PAPERS</title>
        <page.no>1004</page.no>
        <type>papers</type>
      </debateinfo>
      <para>The following papers were pre sented :  - </para>
      <quote>
        <para>Arbitration (Public Service) Act - Determination by the Arbitrator, &#38;c. - No. 7of 1943 - Victorian Public Service Associa tion; Public Service Association of South Australia; and Tasmanian Public Service Association. </para>
        <para class="block">Australian Soldiers&#39; Repatriation Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1942, No. 505. </para>
        <para class="block">Dried Fruits Export Charges Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1943, No. 16. </para>
        <para class="block">Lands Acquisition Act - Land acquired for Commonwealth purposes at - </para>
        <para class="block">Albany, Western Australia. </para>
        <para class="block">Alexandria, New South Wales. </para>
        <para class="block">Batlow, New South Wales. </para>
        <para class="block">Cowra, New South Wales. </para>
        <para class="block">Deniliquin, New South Wales. </para>
        <para class="block">Essendon, Victoria. </para>
        <para class="block">Harristown, Queensland. </para>
        <para class="block">Kalgoorlie, Western Australia. </para>
        <para class="block">Northam, Western Australia. </para>
        <para class="block">Pontville, Tasmania. </para>
        <para class="block">Port Adelaide, South Australia. </para>
        <para class="block">Rathmines, New South Wales. </para>
        <para class="block">Wallaroo, South Australia. </para>
        <para class="block">National Security Act - </para>
        <para class="block">National Security (Civil Defence Workers&#39; Compensation) Regulations - Order by State Premier - Victoria. </para>
        <para class="block">National Security (Emergency Supplies) Regulations - Rules - South Australia. </para>
        <para class="block">National Security (General) Regulations - Orders - </para>
        <para class="block">Bacon and Smallgoods (South Australia ) . </para>
        <para class="block">Control of - </para>
        <para class="block">Essential Materials. </para>
        <para class="block">Pineapples. </para>
        <para class="block">Solder. </para>
        <para>Restrictions on New Manufactures - Exemption. </para>
        <para>Taking possessionof land, &#38;c. (331). </para>
        <para>Use of land (7). </para>
        <para>National Security (Land Transport) </para>
        <para>Regulations - Order No. 13. </para>
        <para>National Security (Maritime Industry) Regulations - Order No. 36. National Security (Universities Commission ) Regulations - Order - Classes of Students to be assisted. </para>
        <para>Norfolk Island- Report for 1941-42. </para>
        <para>Superannuation Act - Regulations - Statutory Rules 1942, No. 549. </para>
      </quote>
    </debate>
    <adjournment>
      <adjournmentinfo>
        <page.no>1004</page.no>
        <time.stamp>22:19:00</time.stamp>
      </adjournmentinfo>
      <para class="block">Senate adjourned at 10.19 p.m. </para>
    </adjournment>
  </chamber.xscript>
</hansard>