Adds option to only spawn if antag. #19471
Conversation
It will just send you to lobby other wise. The idea is to keep antag rollers from taking up job slots, they can late join in the remaining job slots if they want, or ghost, or whatever.
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you've gotta be kidding me. |
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No. |
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👍 whats the problem with this PR |
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Isn't this an issue with player mindsets instead of code? All you're doing is making the problem worse as now everyone can just not play unless they are garunteed to be antag instead of having to roll. |
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and? they don't play anyways, they just do nothing, or the bare minimum to avoid issues. I would rather have 20 players who enjoy playing (antag or not), then 60 players just rolling for antag. |
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MSO? So what? If they round-start suicide or roundstart afk that frequently, then they can just be banned, jobbanned, or antag-banned. If they want to play on the server, they should also play when they don't get antag. They shouldn't get a free pass when not getting it. |
selfish prick |
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@Iamgoofball Please kindly fuck off with cherry picking everything. And No, if they don't get antag, they should still play. They shouldn't be able to cherry pick their rounds. They shouldn't only have to play when they get antag, and get a free pass when not getting antag. |
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This is just "give antag rollers a free pass to observe if they don't get antag" the pr. |
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why do I have to play the game if I dont want to |
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Its better then them taking up slots. |
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People will probably find a way to metagame this feature very quickly. |
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good thing we ban metagaming |
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Intentional downside. If people announce that they enable this option, and somebody decides to meta that, as long as they are smart enough to not make it obvious that they meta'ed that to admins, i fail to see the issue. I plan to implement a Don't ask; Don't tell policy on metaing be only antag. Admins will not actively attempt to seek out people doing that, but if its brought to their attention that somebody killed a tator and had no in game reason to think they were a tator, or the user outright admits to it, ban them for metagaming. because honestly, if you don't want your antag status to get metagamed, play some fucking rounds. |
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Didnt really see the point at first, but when you put it like that, i suppose it makes sense. Well, as long as it reduces the number of suiciders, im fine with whatever. |
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This would literally kill the game |
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It's not selfish to expect people to take turns with different roles in an asymmetric PVP game Nobody is forcing you to play if you don't want to. You just don't get to roll for traitor either. |
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It is rare for me to see good arguments on both sides (even if they are sometimes poorly written). On one end, there would be no need to put up with lost job slots, roundstart suiciders and the like. On the other, it could result in a drastic reduction of station population. Depending on how the code will work, could further reduce available game modes, as the antag-only players would probably ghost or avoid playing. On the long term, it could result in antag-only players filling up ghost roles more often, resulting in poor ghost role players. This could end up getting them removed. I am worried that antag-only gamers could end up being entirely composed of the players whose non-antag playstyle is so poor that you cannot tell them apart from an antag. I am seeing more bad than good coming from this one. |
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Unless you are killing yourself as a miner it is very unlikely you've "wasted a slot" anyway. And most of our suicides are already greyshirts. |
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Frankly we'd need a much larger playerbase to survive this sort of change. Also lock it behind a server config, because downstreams ABSOLUTELY cannot survive this. |
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It's also kind of mind boggling that two admins, who spend a significant amount of time banning people for griefing, would enable and encourage players who literally only want to play when they have 0 rules and are allowed to grief. |
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I am starting to see your point. Suiciders are the players that make a slight effort to be that obnoxious. Some would be perfectly okay playing their role even if they did not get antagonist. But, an option that actively allowed guilt-free, completely safe antag-only play could be quite popular; Popular enough to leave a good chunk of the station barren, especially at lowpop. I may be overestimating this, but this could result in a lot of empty stations. |
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Remove the meme pr tag @KorPhaeron |
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I, as a player who plays on this server, say that this is not a good idea. I agree on Kor on this one. |
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greysuit slots are limited, and we see a lot of suicides there. Clown, librarian, and mime slots are limited, and we see a non-trivial amount of suicides there. There are random jobbers who suicide if not antag, so any slot, including security, engi, gen, rnd, etc can get used up. and while i agree, most rounds, not every slot in every department is used up, there is a non-trivial amount of times somebody loses out on a job they would like to play, including greysuit, because of some antag roller. Byond all of that, the people who don't suicide to avoid attracting attention to their antag hunting aren't good players, they just play enough to go thru the motions until they have an excuse to request the shuttle get called so they can get their re-roll. I don't want those types of people playing, but we can't ban them, so this is the next best thing. I'd rather have 20 players who enjoy playing the game when not antag than 60 players just going thru the motions barely playing at all. |
The problem I have with this is that 60 players allow all the game modes. A 20 player (ready count) severely restricts the game modes open to us. I do not know about you, but I would like to play something other than Traitor(Chan) on a regular basis. |
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Oh no he's seen through my gambit |
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Surely we should be banning those players if they've having a negative impact on the game instead of giving them what they want Yes, I quit mobas. Entirely. I didn't get a special deal where I only got to play when I was winning. If people don't find the game fun, they don't have to play it. But they shouldn't be allowed to only play the most coveted role. At least mediocre players provide fodder for the antags. Grief lottery is dumb, but the only way to fix that is to make station jobs more fun. However that's a fucking massive amount of work (it took me half a year to make lavaland, and that only keeps three civilians per round happy) so I doubt every job getting that treatment is gonna happen. |
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Or change the server rules of the server so the grief lottery isn't so extreme because right now we have "you smashed windows as non antag, enjoy your ban" as civillian vs "do literally whatever you want, silently kill everyone for no reason" as traitor. Of course people are going to suicide when they get banned for breaking windows (yes this has happened repeatedly!) or even yelled at for talking to their friends too much (my universe, normie), leaving them locked into garbage """jobs""" while a handful of players each round just get to grief like crazy. |
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Hey, if you want to make a policy to stop the suiciders, then by all means do so mr headmin. |
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Hey, if this IS passed, make sure the player is ghosted, not returned to lobby. Being able to roll for antag AND choose my job if I did not get antag is too enticing. |
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We do ban suiciders already @AlexCrimson Two people got perma antag banned recently for suiciding every round on both servers when not antag then immediately going ash walker, and one of them was permad after evading it |
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I would only use this like once or twice at the end of the day after playing a whole bunch of regular rounds. By using it like that it has minimal affect on the game and is a net positive. People that exclusively use this and never play a regular round will often not interact with the round at all and likely already don't (see: Join as assistant, immediately suicide). I doubt many people would turn this on and leave it on as it makes it so you essentially can't play the game most of the time. Those who would use this all the time likely already don't play the game very much. Tl;dr: This will have minimal impact on the game. Most people won't use it exclusively, those that would already don't play because they just suicide every round. This deserves to be extensively testmerged by the way |
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Sending back to lobby seems kinda counterproductive here since usually that just means another roll. I have absolutely no idea how will this affect playerbase, i'd suggest testmerge for a week then posting a statistic of people who enabled/not enabled this and in how many rounds. |
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This can't be test merged in it's current state, i'm gonna stash this commit and re-do it without the save file changes, add a config, and make it ghost them, (all extensively harder to do) and then we can test merge or just normal merge it (since it's a config) I'll keep it attached to this pr to keep the comments, don't worry. |
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@KorPhaeron Its great that you ban them, but its still an unofficial policy and more of a rule 1 thing, right? Making it an official rule so that everyone is aware seems like it would be more effective than shadowbanning people. |
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For the record it'd probably be easier to do with joblessrole and a check at the beginning of job assignment. |
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i tired that incoming, but you might get antag and still want to decide what happens when your job preference isn't available. |
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The only use this would have is as a honeypot to antagban the people who enable it, if you're not willing to play as the punching bag for other people, you don't get to play antag and ruin other people's rounds, plain and simple. |
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Some rounds allow latejoiners to be antagonists; independent of all other problems with this it appears that it gives people two antag rolls- one for whether or not they spawn in, and another for when they latejoin. |
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A lot of stuff is tied to roundstart population, like nukeops points or blob stuff. |
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Uh guys you may all be forgetting the core issues forcing this. |
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Where is MEME PR tag when we need it? |
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It's all over your github account |
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With the design lead and headcoder against this and a train of thumbs down I suggest you stop making pr's while high. |
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REDDIT VOTES NOW MATTER GUYS BREAK OUT THE ALTS |
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How about we do the HG method. Why don't we FORCE TRAIL this for a week. Much like harmbots or spacelaw removal. Some will work and some won't, and we honestly won't know the full extent of the problems caused without trying it. |
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Separation of code and server. If Oranges doesnt want to fix the issue, just make a policy to stop it instead. |
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was this ever even testmerged? it deserved at least that |
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This version wasn't test mergeable anyway |
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I don't like how everyone's so fucking stupid that they don't see how this could be used to pick out everyone looking to roll for antag. This is honestly just bait for bans - but then what kind of playerbase would be left? The fact that nobody's agreeing with it just to be able to identify a group of people being blamed for the low quality of the game is just disgusting. |
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After the first few days no one will fall for the bait. |
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do it like how VAC does it ban people after like a month with some arbitrary metric so you don't tag everyone trying the new feature but get the shitlers, and then realize that "oh shit they weren't the problem oh well" or god knows what the actual use case would be. |
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Well if the policy discussions are anything to go by just play security and you can murder anyone who touches you no matter how you instigate it. Free valids |
The idea is to keep antag rollers from taking up job slots
They can late join in the remaining job slots if they want, or ghost, or whatever.
It will just send you to lobby other wise.
The fact of the matter is, this issue isn't gonna get solved administratively, and the only reason it is even an administrative issue is people stealing job slots. Antag Rollers are always going to exist, and with even the assistant slot being limited, we can't have them taking up job slots.
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add: You may now choose to only join at round start if you roll antag. See the game preferences screen for the option.
/:cl:
This PR brought to you by a smoking session between myself and @bobdobbington. The idea was partially his.