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ISO/IEC 20000-1:2011 / ITIL #129
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Hello max3903, I'd like to help on developing this functionality. I'm familiar with Odoo development and the new API, however I'm not very experienced. |
Hello @wagnerpereirasp, The standard can be bought on the ISO website: http://iso.org and once bought, it cannot be shared. I don't have it myself and there is no data model planned yet. Do you have an idea of what features are missing in Odoo to support the SMS activities?
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I saw its price and its above my current financial capability right now. I'll try to get it and will let you know once I do. Thanks. |
About the data module I wish I had the ISO definition to help me review what misses, we need to use as much current models Odoo already have so we'll need a way to turn the either product or asset model into a service CMDB, I think asset is the best qualified to do so, however we should have a way to relate depending services by using parent and child services. The issues model should be used for Incident Management, but we need a way to identify working teams for issues, different departments responsible to resolve incidents depending on the service affected, I thought on using a Project per each Department, and we need a method to reroute issues to different departments. The task model might be a suitable fit to do the change management, however a change record might have several tasks so I'm thinking we might use the project model instead. The problem management might also be covered on the project model, as it also have several tasks. This is only the basics, we still need to cover the Request Management which I think we can use the product model and the virtual store for users to request services (like new ID creation, delete, computer maintenance, etc.). What do you think about this idea ? |
@wagnerpereirasp I listed the requirements and various options we have for each. At a higher level, we need to make a choice between:
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@max3903 some of the features can maybe be copied from the business requirement repo (task category for example). |
@max3903, what if we use approach #3 with a slightly change to allow team load, we can create a support team model that could have assigned personal and be related to the task, this way we can create buttons for task team reassignment. This would make easy to track each team load by using filters and time tracking on tasks, we just need to make sure these task/projects are not confused with the standard Odoo project management using domain filters. |
@wagnerpereirasp let's start with option 3 and use the category field of the business requirement project. |
We are currently conducting projects similar to this scheme (#2). We use issues as customer contact point (incident management) and convert them to tasks as necessary (change, configuration, etc.). We prefer issues to crm claim to keep everything together within the project module. |
@levkar Thanks for your feedbacks. Is it a really problem to have 2 models (tasks and issues) for reporting purposes? |
I advise for option 2. I started with the Issues + Tasks logic that @wagnerpereirasp describes, but found it could be confusing for end users, and later changed it to a simpler Tasks only approach. But I still believe that there are cases where a Issues + Tasks can be the good approach. At the end of the day, we want to keep our options open so that we can pick the best solution for the particular use case at hand. Regarding synergies with Business Requirements, IMO sharing a couple of similar code tables is not enough to justify the additional dependency. I confess I'm not totally familiar with the ITIL vocabulary, but this is an interesting topic for me. I would love to see @max3903 initial requirement bullet points expanded. Maybe a Google Doc is easier for collaboration and commenting/discussing on particular parts of the text? |
@dreispt Will do my best to provide by the end of the week. |
@dreispt Done! |
Hi everyone, I'm a newbie in regard to Odoo, but I'm a certified ISO 20000 Implementer and this subject is familiar to me. I have some experience with IBM Service Desk ( Maximo) and how it implements ITSM/ITIL in regard to workflows and processes. I also have a lot of (un)official documentation on this subject. My question is - do you need still some help with this subject? Honestly, I'm still trying to get a overview how your modul is structured and please apologize if I don't "get it" here and then ;) Before I continue, I would like to assure you that it is not my intention to underrate all your work and efforts and all my comments and remarks should be understood as brainfood to the subject ;) From my experience the best way to easily implement ISO 9001/20000/27000 is to start with a "SERVICE DESK" - a central node from where you "push" every EVENT (mail, e-mail, phone call, software trigger etc.) into the right direction. This is the point where you automated or manually decide if you have a INCIDENT, PROBLEM, REQUEST FOR CHANGE etc. You can imagine yourself a Service Desk as a Help Desk module extended with workflow execution capability. A very important part is the capability for defining escalation rules and procedures. ISO 20000 will very likely evolve from a IT service management standard to a general purpose service management standard very soon and that's why I think that the proper implementation within Odoo is very important. A CMDB could/should be the central point of ALL material and non-material Assets within Odoo. I do have some coding experience, but at this moment I think I could be more valuable by giving my insights in regard how it looks like in real life scenarios... but I'm sure in time and with your help I'll get my hands also dirty ;) In my opinion ISO 9001:2015/20000/13485:2016 are very alike and they could share at least 80% of workflows and procedures. Best regards, Dino |
Welcome @DinoJuric, I would love to help bring your idea forward. I've been playing with Service Management topics in the last years, and I'm sure we could build a solid solution with Odoo. The standard Prokect and Issues apps already provide the basic elements.
As you can see, some work has been done, but I believe that there is a lot more to do. |
Thank you @dreispt for your Welcome Message and suggestions. I'll dive right into the material you provided. I'm aware that there is some kind of workflow engine available within Odoo, I agree that I should write down a scope as always when you are dealing with the implementation of standards, but I have to say upfront that I personally have a more holistic approach to the subject. At this moment I would like to keep all my other opinions back until I get a better overview and understanding of how Odoo in general works. Hopefully, it will not take to much time :) And just a last question. Is it Ok to keep on this discussion on this tread? or should we move this discussion to another place? And is there a place we could exchange relevant documentation to this subject? Kind regards Dino |
Ups, I forgot something :) I want to explain why I mentioned FitSM as a first "Milestone" towards a ISO 20000 certification. FitSM_Guide_Achieving_compliance_with_ISO_IEC_20000-1.pdf Please study it. It is worth your time. I do have also the official ISO documentation, but it is copyrighted and not intended for sharing. Sorry. kind regards, Dino |
Great! I think we can use this Issue for the discussion, and open new Issues for specific topics when we feel the need for that. Regarding scope and requirements, maybe you could edit and expand Maxime's Google doc. See the link at the top. Starting with a birds eye holistic view is a good thing. Regarding workflows, just point out what are the expected must have features. At this point, what I miss most is a high level roadmap of the several areas that could be addressed, so that we can then choose the ones we want to dive in first. |
Dino thanks for the introducing FitSM! I am also working on this issue and reorganizing our company to meet the standards. I will be following the discussion and contribute. |
Hi everyone, sorry for not replying right away, I had some other professional priorities that needed my full attention. @levkar , you're welcome. I don't know how far you already got with your project, but I'm sure that FitSM can help you and your company. I hope you have stakeholders that are aware of the subject at least at the ITIL Foundation level. @dreispt At this moment I consider myself looking at this subject with a view from the Space Station :) Few days ago I installed Odoo 9.0c and the management-system apps But, here are some thoughts just for the fun of brainstroming:
The most difficult of them to achieve is the ISO 20000. If we could accomplish the same "effort" on software level... that we have a general "workflow engine" that would (based upon the requirements selected (simple and detailed setup option)) trigger remainders, generate reports and logs for evaluation by the management and the auditors etc. etc. It should work 24/7 always checking if a condition is fulfilled that requires a (preferably) automated action. Now let me return to my Space Station again ;) ISO standards require a lot of obligated paperwork. BUT - The greatest value the management and the Employees are getting is THE UNDERSTANDING of HOW they are doing their Business and how everything is interconnected and interdependent !!! Here I'm returning to my "Holistic" approach... We could use the same core data of our company ERP ( machines, workplaces, employees, customers, spare parts etc.) within different viewing layers for our purposes of evaluating and documenting in order to achieve a certification or to better understand where our problems are (as a Business). Sh*t,, I wrote a Book again :) Let me shorten this message... What if - there is a open source project potentially covering all our ISO processing needs and at this moment it seems that it could be adopted and misused for our needs? I'm in no way related to that project, I only find it interesting because of the potential to model it to the holistic approach I recommend. I have the feeling it could be well integrated with all the great work you guys already have done. CMDBuild is distributed under the AGPL licence. Kind regards, Dino |
You can go two ways: create an integration with an existing project, such as CMDBuild, or implement the features directly on Odoo. If you are a CMDBuild export, the former can make sense. I personally prefer the later, unless there are some important feature that are hard to implement with Odoo. Also, I've been editing and extending the Google doc linked at the top of this issue. I've been primarily using FitSM as a reference. |
@dreispt Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the internals of Odoo and about CMDBuild even less in order to make a competent suggestion what would be the best solution on the technical side. @ALL What I do know is - we need a system to handle Configuration Items and CMDBuild shows how it can be handled (as a possible reference). The same way I introduced FitSM, I would also like to make you aware of PAS-99 2012 for integrated management systems I attached two excerpts from the original PAS-99 2012 document to show you how all ISO standards I mentioned in my earlier messages correlate to each other and they all have a lot in common... The Introduction to PAS-99:2012 ANNEX C - standard correlations I've seen the changes that have been done within the document above and it's a great starting point. Kind Regards, |
You mean we need a framework to handle any quality system before getting into details of ITIL, am i right? |
In general, yes. No one is forcing us to do that. But as anything else, we need a consensus about what are our priorities. |
Here, the scope is mostly the operation part of ITIL. As you climb up the tree, scope becomes ITIL as a whole. If you climb even higher then it becomes all quality systems as a whole. We were comparing local Quality Management solutions with Odoo Management System and we come to a conclusion that QM a big and deep vertical with lots of know-how. Unless we have a broader point of view (like yours), whatever solution we provide will be just a part of the whole picture. I fully agree with you by the way. |
@levkar You are absolutely correct. Once you start to climb up the tree it's hard to take account for all Branches you will reach. I've been there ;) There was a time when ISO9001 was introduced, when you could get the certificate relatively easy - by limiting the scope and by keeping the extra paperwork low... Today it's totally different. So here comes the bad news. Also, as much as I am a Fan of ITIL - in real life, it is very hard to implement because of several reasons. First, the Implementer is probably the only person who fully understands the benefits of ITIL Second, there is a underestimated Problem with ITIL that also doesn't help the Implementation. However, the biggest problem I see with ITIL is not about it's processes it describes... It's about the whole concept. It's a guideline of best practices. A lot of "You should..." instead of "You Shall..." During my practical work I noticed that ISO 20000 is not only the almost perfect framework for IT service management, but actually the perfect way to excellence in doing a Business. Almost every part of the standard can be applied as a general Business process. Now the good news. Here comes my question - how much different is a IT Help Desk from let's say a workshop call center or a Reception Desk within a Hotel or a Backoffice at the local Drugstore around the corner? A functional Service Desk is at the Heartbeat of a company and evaluating data it provides will give you almost every answer ANY management system will require. Within your Service Catalog you can offer IT services the same way you can offer standard services to your employees, departments or customers ( through a customer portal). etc. That's why it seems to me that a framework makes sense. How it's done for real doesn't matter as long as it fits our goals and can be covered with resources we have. |
I don't know if you will find this site www.itskeptic.org useful, but I think there are lot of blog entries that can help taking a view at the ITSM subject from a different angle... Edit: Here is the link to the setup file on my Google Drive : ITUP 7.1.4 I hope you will like it. |
Hi Everyone, within my last postings I provided you a lot of information that really needs time to get processed. I know, I've been there. I hope you found ITUP as a useful resource. This post will be a more practical one. I would like to present you a Vision how we could solve the complete quality management question within a holistic approach without reinventing wheels and supporting existing standards.
Well, I imagine myself that I found what I was looking for and it seems to me that this could be a good starting point for discussion. I'll first present you the concept and afterwards I'll make a practical suggestion how to go forward in a Step by Step Fashion. The Genesis of the "Theory": Within the Code I discovered that the CMDBuild developers didn't start from scratch. I extracted this picture from this document: In general: DMTF.org defined everything what we need and it follows the principle of federation. DMTF also defined the Common Information Model ( CIM) for IT that can be applied into the CMDBf But here it becomes interesting. I was looking further for other CIM models and I found this picture: Right away I was interested what OAGIS and MIMOSA have to say to this subject and it was not disappointing. I don't know how actual this picture is, but it represents what OAGIS covers... Every release has a commercial (Enterprise) Version and a Community Version. MIMOSA is a Operations and Maintenance Information Open System Alliance This is a general Idea what it tries to cover: There is a standard or specification to almost every industry specific request... Back to reality: So what is this all good for? Step 1: But for the beginning lets start only with the IT CIM, just to keep it simple. All Odoo Applications that make use of the CMDB collected information would then be at the Presentation Layer Step 2: But for the beginning a functional ticketing system would be a good starting point. Step 3: Step 4: We only need to use Odoo Portal and E-commerce capabilities. STEP 5: Expected benefits: I know... this was a big post, sorry for that. Don't hesitate to discuss anything wrote... It will help us clarify everything that bothers us... Enjoy your Weekend ;) Dino The links: www.dmtf.org |
From what i understood from your long post, the very first thing to do is to build the CIM for CMDB. I checked CIM schemas of DMTF and it was very crowded :) Are we supposed to implement all of those? |
yeap... it was a really long post. Sorry for that. It's up to us what we are going to do. also, the way I'm looking at the problem is only my opinion and as such it can be discussed or dissmissed. |
Nice work, there's a lot to chew on ther @DinoJuric. I would like to start work on the Service Desk topic. |
Honestly, back in the days I needed almost 2 years to become confident with the subject... OK. Let's be practical. In regard to the Service Catalog. A adopted Shopping Cart is a good solution. How does it sounds to you guys? |
I still don't get the full picture there, but the "list of features that the Service Desk should have in an Ideal World" sounds great. I plan an implementation based on "Project Issues" and "Project Tasks". Instead, we would add "Service Teams", that have a role similar to "Projects", but for Service Management applications. The first thing is design the data structures supporting the apps. |
Actually I have... My only concern is that I have to check the copyright status of the other material I have... there are a bunch of useful docs that are describing best practices... |
I started writing the specs for the Service Management app in a section of the document at the top of this Issue: see https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z6OJIs5FXMuqVeRm63TgXDW4bXh9z292qnDSV0hwUNM/edit#heading=h.r6kek4hn2b1 |
Hi Everyone, Unfortunately I don't have much spare time these days so that I'm late finishing the "check list" for the "Service Desk" I promised. Until then, I adopted for you a ISO20000 GAP Analysis I personally use for the last few years... Within this Excel sheet you will find ALL the questions you have to ask in order to fulfill the requirements. I'm playing with the Idea to enhance this tool with correlating requirements for FitSM, similar Daniel did within the document at the top of this Issue... let me know if this could be helpful for you. In regard of distributing this tool, I would kindly ask you to keep it within this group. Have a great Weekend |
@max3903 I wonder if it's not wise to not try and fit this into the existing project.task project.issue space and look at ISO20000 as a completely new paradigm starting with the base units of Events, Incidents, Problems and Change requests. It would certainly mean that it would lean less on the existing odoo infrastructure, but given all the information that @DinoJuric has provided, it looks much more comprehensive than that current odoo service desk. |
@antibios Using existing Tasks and Issues will allow to leverage features added to those models, such as timesheets and materials spent, or SLAs (already implemented for Tasks). |
@DinoJuric Good resource. From my PoV we should start with the 6.1 section. |
@antibios you got it right by pointing out that Events, Incidents, Problems and Change requests as BASE UNITS. The key concept to every Service is that we (the service provider) are making a Commitment defined through a SLA... Everything else has a supporting Role. The Service Desk, all processes, policies and alike are supporting our Commitment that we will fulfill our given Promise to deliver whatever was negotiated. Please take a look at this picture. It's a Workflow for a Service Catalog Item... Every stage colored in blue that has a time frame listed - could be defined by it's own SLA. So, what are the Elements of an SLA? Here is a example -> sla-template.docx You will find out that most of the Data needed is probably already somewhere within odoo. We definitely have to declare "something" as our CMDB infrastructure and it doesn't matter if it is federated within the existing data as long they are consistent and properly documented. @dreispt 6.1 is a good starting point, but it's closely connected with chapter 7 (Service Relationships) I understand that the Project App has the feature of defining Issues, tasks and SLAs and that it seems logical to start from there... Do you think that it would be difficult to separate the SLA mechanism from the Project App so that it can be "imported" to every App that needs this kind of functionality? As always, this is as always my subjective opinion that can be discussed or dismissed ;) |
The place to start is to define the "Service Portfolio" tree and the "Configuration Items" tree. |
There hasn't been any activity on this issue in the past 6 months, so it has been marked as stale and it will be closed automatically if no further activity occurs in the next 30 days. |
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z6OJIs5FXMuqVeRm63TgXDW4bXh9z292qnDSV0hwUNM/edit?usp=sharing
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